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New CEOs at Workday, Snagajob; Indeed's Sneaky New Terms of Service

A new year always brings new promise. For three companies in the employment space, it also means a new CEO. For Indeed, it means a new Terms of Service wrought with unpleasant surprises for those not paying attention. It also means new and interesting ways to quit your job, as Walmart recently found out. With Chad still getting his holiday hangover under control, Cheese is joined by industry veteran Sarah White, CEO at Aspect43, to help make sense of everything going on in the world of recruitment for the first week of 2023.


Joel (2s):

It may not seem like it, but Chad and I work pretty hard to bring you this show on a regular basis, and it's been an unwritten rule since we started the show that we take a few weeks during the holidays to step away from the show, as well as step away from each other so we can come back fresh and be the functioning derelicts, you know and love. Well, Chad spent the holiday polluting much of Europe with his Americanness and needs a few more days to recover. So no Chad means no editing of this show. It's gonna be like your favorite Pearl Jam bootleg tape from 1993, solid content, pretty shitty production value, and anything can happen.

Joel (45s):

Anyway, Chad will be back next week and things should be back to normal. Till then, I've invited a more than capable guest co-host to keep the seat warm for Chad until he gets back. Enjoy and here's to a kick-ass new year.

Chad and Cheese - Intro (1m 2s):

Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts complete with breaking news slash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Joel (1m 23s):

Oh, yeah, my New Year's resolution, less Chad, and I'm off to a great start. Hi, boys and girls, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host Joel "Running for House Speaker" Cheesman.

Sarah White (1m 38s):

And this is Sarah "You're Never Gonna Make It" White.

Joel (1m 42s):

On this week's show, cloudy with a chance of doom and gloom, Indeed's sneaky new terms of service, and a Walmart resignation gone loco. Let's do this. Guys, if you listen to our show, you know, Sovren has been a supporter for a very long time, but you may not know Textkernel who recently acquired Sovren. If you know Sovren, guys, you need to get to know TextKernel. That's Kernel as in corn, which Sarah and I both know a lot about. No one does resume parsing, matching, semantic search, talent sourcing, and more quite like Textkernel.

Joel (2m 22s):

They also have some of the best industry intelligence around all available for free on their blog at text Everyone in the US, you know Sovern, they've been a sponsor of our show for a long time, but it's time to get to know our friends at Textkernel if you haven't already. Do yourself a favor, head on down to www.textkernel, that's and tell them Chad and Cheese sent you. Sarah, welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Joel (3m 1s):

A lot of our listeners will know who you are, but for those that don't, you are CEO and founder of Blink 182, I mean, Level 42, I mean Area 51. No, no, no. Aspect 43. Happy New Year and welcome to the show.

Sarah White (3m 16s):

Happy New Year. We're not allowed to talk about the Area 51 stuff.

Joel (3m 21s):

We're not? Yeah.

Sarah White (3m 22s):


Joel (3m 22s):

Sarah's in Idaho. I don't know what the fuck is going on in Idaho, dude. Like that whole, that whole desert, big sky. Yeah, that whole location. I hear Boise is nice though. I hear Boise is nice.

Sarah White (3m 35s):

Boise. Boise's about 10 hours away. So I don't know--

Joel (3m 39s):

From you?

Sarah White (3m 40s):


Joel (3m 41s):

You're in the same-- What do you--? God, that's Texas.

Sarah White (3m 43s):

I'm way, way up north.

Joel (3m 45s):

That's Texas land, man.

Sarah White (3m 46s):

I am, oh, gosh, like an hour and a half south of Canada and a couple hours out of Glacier National Park and about three hours out of Seattle.

Joel (3m 55s):

Is it officially a panhandle?

Sarah White (3m 57s):

It is.

Joel (3m 58s):

In Idaho that stick that goes northward, is that?

Sarah White (4m 1s):

Yeah. It is officially called a panhandle.

Joel (4m 3s):

A panhandle. And you live in the panhandle?

Sarah White (4m 5s):

I do. We just call it Northern Idaho.

Joel (4m 7s):

Or Nordiho, Nordaho, Nodaho? I don't know. So Sarah and I have known each other, I thought it was 15 years. She corrected me. It's 17, apparently to the day when I signed her yearbook, "Stay cool dude. See you next year."

Sarah White (4m 22s):

Yeah, middle school. Have a great summer.

Joel (4m 25s):

Yeah, have a great summer, dude. See you at the pool. See you at the pool.

Sarah White (4m 28s):

I actually had my very first glass of wine the day we met.

Joel (4m 33s):

Oh, I thought you were gonna say you're drinking this morning. Like the holidays are rolling for Sarah White. So, Sarah, a lot of my listeners know you or know of you. You're quite an icon in the industry, but for those that don't know, give us a little Twitter buyer about you and a little bit about the company.

Sarah White (4m 51s):

Yeah, so we actually research work and so I've been in the industry, literally, I fell into it on accident. But we look at market trends, what's going on, try to talk to especially recruiting talent acquisition employees. And then we work with the tech vendors to actually make better products because a lot of them kind of suck. So that's where we spend a lot of our time. And if we could change work for the better, why not?

Joel (5m 21s):

And that is why invited you to the show. Everyone sucks. You have two beautiful children. I gotta mention that.

Sarah White (5m 28s):

I do. I do.

Joel (5m 30s):

You're too humble. You're too humble to admit it. So you're a Californian to Wisconsin via now Idaho. So you've got a nice mix of, I don't know, cheese and cow or something. I don't know.

Sarah White (5m 41s):

Cheese, yeah, I mean, California's a cheese place also.

Joel (5m 45s):

Cheesman. All right, well on the show we do some shoutouts. I'm gonna do one to get you acquainted to how this works. And then you apparently have a shoutout and then we'll get into some other housekeeping. So my first shout out of the year goes to the fans. Our fans, love them, love them. Anyway, every year we sent out a holiday card to our fans that have registered. And this year, if you haven't gotten it or didn't get it, it's Chad and I illustrated. Chad's on a great white shark. I'm on an eagle. We're riding a wave. We got some Christmas trees and candy canes and everything.

Sarah White (6m 18s):

Oh, my gosh.

Joel (6m 19s):

Our fans had some really fun ways of showing that they had put their holiday cards up for Christmas. And one fan in particular that got my attention had a wife that wasn't real happy about our card being among all the family cards and friend cards that they had. So this is my friend Brett Farmiloe, who I've talked about in the show.

Sarah White (6m 38s):

I thought you're gonna say Brett Favre.

Joel (6m 39s):

You know Brett the Farm--

Sarah White (6m 40s):

I thought you were gonna say Brett Favre, yeah.

Joel (6m 42s):

Brett the Farm-- Yeah. My friend Brett Favre, he's a big fan. Anyway, yeah, Brett Farmiloe, my friend at Terkel, Founder and CEO at Terkel, he said, quote, "FYI, my Chad and Cheese holiday card is so front and center at my house that my wife is annoyed with it and comments about it once a week." Quote, "Who is Chad? Who is cheese? Can we take this down?" End quote. That's right. This episode of couple's therapy is brought to you today by the Chad and Cheese Podcast. My shoutout is to everyone who shared our holiday card. You can also send those bills from your shrink and marriage counselor to Chad and not me.

Joel (7m 24s):

Shoutout to the fans.

Sarah White (7m 25s):

Where is the card being placed that's causing--? I mean, is it in the bedroom? Is it on the nightstand?

Joel (7m 30s):

Come one. You probably have a little card thing where either around the fireplace or in the kitchen, you know. You like, you stick them and you sort of present them and virtue signal how many friends you have that are sending you cards. They're putting it with those cards. So amongst the scenes of sweatered families with woodland backgrounds is an animated Chad and Cheese riding a great white shark and an eagle.

Sarah White (7m 58s):

So mixed in with the people from high school you never talked to?

Joel (7m 59s):

It makes sense a few wives might get--

Sarah White (8m 1s):


Joel (8m 1s):

Yeah, a few wives might get a little bit distraught over such an image.

Sarah White (8m 6s):

I guess. Okay, we'll go with that.

Joel (8m 8s):

Your shoutout now.

Sarah White (8m 10s):

Okay. My shoutout is to all of the people ops and recruiting pros that have been laid off in the last 24 hours and are handling it with so much freaking grace on LinkedIn. And they're like, "Oh, I really appreciated the opportunity. It was so great to be here. I just got laid off via an email that I woke up to this morning," and we have, you know, three big companies have done layoffs between yesterday and today. And the grace of which these people are handling this after working their asses off for the whole pandemic through great resignation, everything else, is really amazing. So huge shout out to, not just the ones handling it well, but just everyone doing this.

Joel (8m 54s):

So I gotta ask, we talk a lot about Amazon on the show and Amazon just announced 18,000 today I believe, which is more than they had originally expected. Amazon more than most are doing an aggressive job of replacing recruiters. Any thoughts on the automation, the replacement of recruiters? Is that actually gonna be a thing our company's gonna follow Amazon's lead? Is this a failed experiment? What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah White (9m 25s):

I mean, Amazon's clearly had a number of failed experiments related to their tech and primarily because they try to build stuff in-house and have AI bias issues and blah, blah, blah. With that said, we're absolutely gonna see a lot of recruiting jobs go away because of tech. No differently, I mean there's probably one or two other people watching this that are old enough to remember when ATSs were coming in. We brought our ATS in--

Joel (9m 51s):

We have a lot of old people listening to our show.

Sarah White (9m 53s):

Yeah, I'm with my people. You know, when we were bringing in ATS systems 2001, 2002, we were easily replacing 10 to 15 headcounts on our teams by bringing in one system. I had a person whose only job at one of my early TA roles, their only job was to print the resumes, staple, collate, count, and deliver them to me in a mail bin every single morning and after lunch. That was it. Like that was their whole job. And so, you know, there's going to be roles that are going to evolve and change and new ones are gonna pop up.

Sarah White (10m 35s):

So it's not all, you know, all doom and gloom, but things are gonna change, and it's not just in talent acquisition. I think we're gonna see it kind of across the board.

Joel (10m 43s):

Yeah. That person is now a greeter at your local Walmart. So they found somewhere else to go with their high-level skills. Speaking of high-tech, this brings me to my final shoutout. So this goes out to Bing and ChatGPT. Microsoft, in case you hadn't heard, gave ChatGPT in the open AI initiative $1 billion. In return for the check, they agreed that Microsoft could use the tech. So no surprise this week that news came out that Bing will be leveraging ChatGPT's technology to help compete with big G, Google.

Joel (11m 25s):

Meanwhile, Google is apparently freaking out about ChatGPT.

Sarah White (11m 28s):

They should.

Joel (11m 29s):

They're on DEFCON One. Hey, I say competition is good for business. Sarah, GPT Chat, horrible brand. I probably said it wrong. I always do. What are your thoughts? Not so much on the brand, but the technology and how it could impact humanity and/or recruiting.

Sarah White (11m 48s):

Oh, well, I don't know how much on humanity quite yet, but, yeah, it's going to be a biggie. I think on two fronts. I think it's gonna change the type of people we hire because it's gonna change jobs in general. It's gonna reduce the number of people, just like any other technology is. And I know we've been talking about AI, I feel like all 17 years we've known each other. It feels like we've been talking about the same thing and then all of a sudden it's happening and it's here and it's actually working. And so I think I took a lot of time playing around with ChatGPT over the holidays, and by a lot of time, I mean five hours because I got more done in five hours using that than we've had contractors get done in 70.

Sarah White (12m 36s):

So I mean it's changing how our company and roles that we were gonna be hiring for, we don't have to anymore.

Joel (12m 43s):

Really? Chris Russell, a friend of ours that we've known for a long time as well, apparently there's someone coding job boards with no developers whatsoever through some of the technologies that are out there. I assume that we'll be seeing rewrite your job descriptions with AI, rewrite resumes with AI. I mean there'll be a whole new cavalcade of startups that we'll be able to see and enjoy.

Sarah White (13m 8s):

Which means we're gonna see a whole bunch of LinkedIn influencers really pissed off in talking about how bad it sucks and you need that human touch.

Joel (13m 16s):

Which also means I have job security as a podcaster because I have stuff to talk about. Speaking of job security and having something to do, Sarah, if you haven't signed up for free shit from Chad and Cheese, you gotta do yourself a favor. We're talking free t-shirts from our friends at JobGet. We're talking about free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs, Whiskey from TextKernel. If it's your birthday, there's a chance to win rum from our friends at Plum. Just all kinds of goodness. You gotta go to Chad Cheese. We're on brand here, baby. We're on brand next year we're having a liver donation sponsor to the show.

Joel (13m 58s):

But you gotta go, click the free link, sign up, in order to get all that stuff. And while you're out there, leave us a review on your favorite podcasting platform of choice whether it's good or bad, it is our oxygen and we love to hear from you. And we also love everyone who is celebrating a birthday this month. I mentioned Rum with Plum. One of these lucky people, maybe not this week, but someone in January is gonna win a nice bottle of rum. But this week, celebrating a birthday from our fan club, we've got Muir, Muir McDonald, that's gotta be like an Irish name or something, M-U-I-R.

Joel (14m 38s):

How would you pronounce that?

Sarah White (14m 38s):

Sounds Wisconsin.

Joel (14m 39s):

Muir? Muir?

Sarah White (14m 39s):


Joel (14m 40s):

M-U-I-R. How would you pronounce it?

Sarah White (14m 41s):

Muir like John Muir.

Joel (14m 43s):

Muir. Muir. Okay.

Sarah White (14m 46s):

Like the famous photographer of Yosemite.

Joel (14m 48s):

You know better than I do. Hit us up, Muir, for how you pronounce that name. Mark Fogal, Zachary Larson, Steve Jewel, Rob Barn, Mark Katz, Peter Brooks, Mark Becker, Matt Luca, Shell Ford, Athena Carp, Peter Zalman, and Fish Dogs himself, Craig Fisher, all celebrate another trip around the sun this year.

Sarah White (15m 10s):

Man, what holidays in, what is that, in March? Oh, St. Patty's Day, those are all St. Patty's Day babies.

Joel (15m 20s):

Boom. There you go. That escalated quickly. Yes, St. Patrick's Day Babies. Congratulations to you. Sarah, we got to travel this year again, which is nice.

Sarah White (15m 29s):

We did, yeah. A couple of times.

Joel (15m 30s):

A couple times. So Chad is coming. Chad, the prince of Portugal is coming back to the States. Everyone, alert the authorities. He's gonna be back in States. I think he is actually right now as we speak. He's recovering from his hangover. But anyway, we'll be traveling again this year. Our travel is sponsored by our friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing and we couldn't be happier. Also, I want to point out that we are now in four different languages aside from English. If your main language is not English, maybe it's French, German, Spanish, or Portuguese, you can listen to the Chad and Cheese Podcast in your native language through the power of technology.

Sarah White (16m 6s):

I'm sure.

Joel (16m 7s):

And that is powered by our friends at Veritone. We wanna say a special--

Sarah White (16m 13s):

That's awesome.

Joel (16m 14s):

--to them. Also, do you play Fantasy Football, Sarah?

Sarah White (16m 16s):

I did not this year, but normally I do.

Joel (16m 19s):

I know you're a football fan.

Sarah White (16m 20s):


Joel (16m 20s):

Normally, you do? Okay, well, you didn't sign up to be on our Fantasy Football league. Hopefully, you'll explore that.

Sarah White (16m 25s):

I didn't want to embarrass anybody.

Joel (16m 26s):

Hopefully, you'll explore that next year.

Sarah White (16m 29s):

Next year.

Joel (16m 29s):

Yeah. Aaron Rogers will be off the board quickly if Sarah gets into the league as a Packers fan. But anyway, the tragedy from this week aside and the Damar Hamlin news is being beat to death, so prayers for him obviously, but not to spend too much time on that. It did make a mess of Fantasy. But Yahoo, our league that we used has sort of called it, and Dennis Tupper is our Fantasy winner from this year. But I want to read out the rest of the leaderboard, Sarah, mainly because I came in second place and I wanna like--

Sarah White (17m 4s):

Well, then we have to talk about it.

Joel (17m 8s):

So, again, Dennis, the Gridiron Menace, Tupper is number one. Number two, Joel, Blue, Cheesman. Get it? I'm blue because I lost. But blue cheese is also a thing. So I sort of like wrapped it into a buy one get one on that one.

Sarah White (17m 20s):

I get it. I get cheese references.

Joel (17m 21s):

Yeah. Number three we got Smoke and Joe Wilke followed by Serge, the raging Acadian, Boudreaux. If you know, you know. Chris, middle of the pack, Manion, Chad, prince of Portugal, Sowash right there at number six. Factory Fix his own, Iron Mike Schaffer, Factory Fix is our sponsor for Fantasy Football, by the way. Christie killing it in the name of James Goony GooGoo Gilliam. Matt Fool on the hill. Jason, No Repeat, Putnam. He was last year's champion. He ended in 11th place out of 12 and number 12 the Caboose Dan, no-show, Shoemaker, who came up really short this year on Fantasy Football.

Joel (18m 10s):

So that is Dennis Tupper again is the winner. But let's get into some real news, shall we, Sarah?

Sarah White (18m 16s):

I think that was good news.

Joel (18m 17s):

That was good news but it's not really the news people tune in for.

Sarah White (18m 21s):


Joel (18m 21s):

We gotta get 20 minutes of bullshit before we actually talk about industry stuff. So, Sarah, you've been around the block a few times as we've already mentioned. What were your takeaways from 2022? It was kind of a nutty year. What did it look like from your perspective out there in panhandle Idaho?

Sarah White (18m 42s):

Oh, man. Well, oh, I guess I was here a full year. I've only been here a little bit, but I'll tell you what I think the word of the year for 2022 is delusional. Like everybody wanted to believe what they wanted to believe without looking at the facts of actually what was happening. I think that was my biggest takeaway. We were continuing to talk about like, "Oh, these jobs are growing so quickly. Oh, no, there's not actually going to be layoffs. Oh, everything is fine." We wanted to have such blinders on and kind of ignore stuff in part because of what was coming out from media and government and all of this type of stuff. But it was tracking things that were happening in an unprecedented way.

Sarah White (19m 23s):

And so we were making assumptions based off of kind of the wrong data. And so I think that was my biggest takeaway is that some of the standard ways that we were judging and looking and making decisions around growth and layoffs and investments and everything else probably needs to be reevaluated for a much more modern society and how things are going to work in the 2020s versus in the 1900s.

Joel (19m 53s):

So I'm assuming that you have investments in some sort of stocks somewhere. So it was a real shitty year for Wall Street.

Sarah White (20m 2s):


Joel (20m 2s):

But labor for the most part has remained strong. So delusional.

Sarah White (20m 8s):

But has it--

Joel (20m 9s):

There were layoffs in Silicon Valley, pretty high-profile ones, but the labor market, at least in 2022, seemed to hold. Is that just a lagging indicator? Like we'll get to 2023 and I don't want to skip ahead, but like if labor is a lagging indicator, I assume that you think it's gonna catch up to the stock market and we're gonna see sort of labor catch up with the, I don't know, the cliff dive that we saw on Wall Street. But you will agree that people had a hard time firing people in 2022 even though they probably knew the writingis on the wall.

Sarah White (20m 46s):

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. I think they were trying to get through and just be like, "No, no, no, we can do okay this year." You know, some of it, I don't know how much was tied back to like PPP rules or other, you know, there were multiple different types of funding coming in for keeping and you had to retain employees past a certain date. But it sure seems that as all of those rules fell off, we started seeing the layoffs and everything, start to kind of moving a little bit more aggressively. I do think that there's some lagging indicator here though because if somebody is underemployed, so let's say they, you know, get their hours cut back or get something else, if they even take a job so they go to work at Walmart as a greeter, for instance, right?

Sarah White (21m 27s):

They're removed from all of the lists that something's wrong with their labor and so it still looks like they're fully employed. But when you start looking into more detail around like number of hours people are working, how much they're earning, all of these other factors, those are kind of red flags that we look at to look at kind of what the 12- to 18-month numbers are gonna be.

Joel (21m 50s):

Yep. Are we undervaluing the effect of the gig economy on the world? You mentioned greeter but I'm sure a lot of those people are driving Ubers and delivering food on DoorDash and Bing.

Sarah White (22m 6s):

Yeah. And I think a lot of the people that are doing that are doing that as a supplement to other things or as a stopgap. But the second they start doing that, they also come off of all of those numbers. So if they are just not taking unemployment and they are making slightly more driving an Uber, DoorDash or anything, they show as they're fully employed, even though they don't have a job. I mean, I'll use a very small example. We're a small firm. We definitely don't pay high, you know, tech industry rates. We posted a job in October. I had to turn the job off within six hours because we had almost a thousand applicants, all highly qualified.

Sarah White (22m 50s):

I had posted the salary on there, the salary was, you know, maybe a couple years out of school, three to five years out of school, and not tech three years out of school, like normal-world three years out of school, and probably 70 percent of the applicants we got have been out of work since July, August, September. They've been on long-term.

Joel (23m 11s):

Are they all working for FTX or any other crypto exchanges?

Sarah White (23m 14s):

Most of them were not in tech at all. And I think that's where we're really, you know, the media talks a lot about the tech stuff because that's splashy and all of that. But we know of layoffs that were affecting all industries kind of across the board last year or small downsizings.

Joel (23m 34s):

Yeah. Yeah. Right-sizing.

Sarah White (23m 35s):


Joel (23m 36s):

I'll ask you this before we get to 2023.

Sarah White (23m 39s):


Joel (23m 40s):

We saw crazy money go to our space in '21. I mean, stupid money, right?

Sarah White (23m 45s):

Oh, gosh. Stupid money.

Joel (23m 47s):

I remember fielding questions about predictions for '22 about are we gonna continue to see money, you know, go into our space and more unicorns being created. I predicted no, which I ended up being right. But what's your sense on the money that came into the space? What's happening to those companies or what's your best guess in terms of, you know, down rounds, layoffs, people having stock options or stock that's worthless than from when they got in? Any insights from you in terms of the money that sort of dried up in 2022?

Sarah White (24m 24s):

Yeah, I mean I think we-- I have a little bit of unique perspective on this. In the last few years, we've done close to a billion dollars of M&A or investment support in the space. And so we've seen a ton of these transactions both working on pre- and post-terms with them. The money is a hundred percent drying up, but the money that was put out there into the companies, a lot of it they just blew, quite honestly. I think we're gonna actually see a huge number of acquisitions this year. Large number. There are still some strategic investors. We've had five either acquisition or investment groups reach out to us just this week already about decisions they wanna make this year.

Sarah White (25m 10s):

So there is still money and everything going on, and I don't wanna say it's going to be down, it's going to be back to where it should have been to start with. I mean it was 2020, 2021. These valuations were insane for stuff. I mean, if you're selling a recruiting tool for $50,000, a pop on the high end, and you get $200 million of funding for a 10 percent, I'm not picking on anybody in particular. I just randomly made up those numbers. If that happens to correlate, right? Like realistically, how many types of products are you gonna have to sell or you're gonna have to completely change?

Sarah White (25m 51s):

So I think it's going to be a really interesting year and I think it's super exciting because the consolidation you and I have both gone through, this will be our third big consolidation round in this industry, right?

Joel (26m 1s):


Sarah White (26m 1s):

We've gone through this a number of times. This isn't new, but when the consolidation happens, it always benefits the corporate recruiting teams and it benefits the businesses and it benefits the workers, and the applicants. And so I'm really excited because as soon as this consolidation around comes back, we're gonna have another round of really high-growth startups. And you and I were both in Paris and saw the stuff that is getting worked on that is going to be what is eligible in 2024, 2025. And it's some really amazing stuff.

Joel (26m 38s):

Yeah. Yeah. And fortunately, with a lot of the Silicon Valley and tech layoffs, all those people are either gonna start companies or go work for new and exciting companies. So that brings us into '23. You've already kind of made a prediction, consolidation. Any other predictions or insights into the new year?

Sarah White (26m 57s):

I'm gonna be Debbie Downer here for a second. We haven't even scratched the surface on layoffs this year. A lot of companies start planning for layoffs four to six months out. We're aware of layoffs right now that are going to run all the way through June that are already in process and getting worked on. And they are not just in tech. Like this is going to start crossing because once we hit one, the other big prediction, I'm gonna say totally off topic is eggs are gonna go absolutely insane. Like the cost of eggs, which is I think is gonna really piss people off.

Joel (27m 35s):

Eggs, E-G-G-S.

Sarah White (27m 35s):

E-G-G-S. So if you look at-- I think we're gonna have--

Joel (27m 38s):

So buy your chickens now.

Sarah White (27m 39s):

Buy your chickens. We're gonna have quite a summer I think because we're gonna have a couple of quarters of really high layoffs, we're gonna have people not finding jobs in the way they have been used to. We've got a huge number of people that have never gone through a recession or major downsizing. Maybe they saw their parents go through it, but there's a huge, you know, we have 12 to 15 years of people that really have never gone through that in their career. Everything's getting more expensive, housing, blah, blah, blah. And then something that has been this like stable, I think can be this tipping point. Predictions are eggs are going to be $12 a dozen by summer.

Sarah White (28m 20s):

Like people are going to lose their minds because everything is going to be crazy. And eggs I think might just be the tipping point.

Joel (28m 29s):

Forget about that Ruby on Rails developer. Eggs are gonna blow your mind in terms of how much that's shit's gonna cost.

Sarah White (28m 38s):

Not everybody works in tech, right? Like we got people not making-- You know, it's hard enough as it is when something that, you know, what did we eat when we were in college? We ate 39-cent ramen noodles in 89-cent dozen of eggs and we would make--

Joel (28m 52s):

Mac and cheese, eggs, yeah.

Sarah White (28m 55s):

Mac and cheese or whatever else you could do. Like, the basic stuff, like little stuff like that is what really pisses people off. So hopefully we don't also have another tipping point thing, but I think 2023 is going to be a year where a lot of people just kind of look at their life and think about, okay, what is actually necessary? How do I make work matter? Like at the level it should, how do I make decisions in my personal life? What do I actually need? And I think we're gonna see businesses making the same decisions. Like who do we actually need for employees? What type of clients are we actually gonna go through? Everybody's gonna get much more targeted and focused on every aspect of life in 2023.

Joel (29m 41s):

So we have a lot of vendors listen to our show.

Sarah White (29m 45s):


Joel (29m 45s):

Are we gonna see a bloodbath like we've seen? Now, in old days with job boards when they sort of ruled the world, if people weren't posting jobs, they were screwed.

Sarah White (29m 55s):


Joel (29m 55s):

But now we're in a little more diversity. You're a little bit more integrated into systems, you're a little harder to get rid of. How does that gonna impact vendors like in a big way? Are we gonna see an HR tech with two boobs? Like how is this gonna play out?

Sarah White (30m 16s):

You know, sometimes when economy is bad, economy is really great for HR tech, and what is going to make the differentiator for vendors is their go-to market in their positioning. If they keep trying to sell and talk the same story and pretend that it's all about like, "Oh, it's really hard to find candidates" if you're still going after that approach, you're gonna really struggle moving in. If you adjust to what is happening with current conditions and you meet the practitioners kind of where they're at, we just did focus groups with, I think we had 24 recruiting leaders, TA leaders, all-sized companies, only one of those 24 so their top issues still was not finding enough candidates.

Sarah White (31m 3s):

The expectations, and this is, I don't know, last month. So the expectations are changing and vendors can still have a lot of success if they change to meet those expectations and change with what is actually mattering in business. The companies that have failed, we've seen them right over and over, like amazing product, amazing sales teams, horrible messaging. They don't know how to explain what they're doing and what the value is. And if things are tightening up, you have to show your value and your impact without going to a point where everything turns into an ROI conversation. It's a really hard balance for people.

Joel (31m 42s):

And if you have to pivot, figure out how to get ChatGPT to make eggs and you're set apparently from Sarah. So, Sarah, I'm reading an article recently this week talking about programmatic advertising come into podcasts. So, wow, precedent, right? So, for once, recruitment advertising is a step or two ahead of, I don't know, regular advertising. Recruiting has been leveraging solutions. Programmatic job ad solutions like JobADX to promote their jobs for years. What's JobADX you might ask, Sarah? What do you live under a rock in Idaho?

Sarah White (32m 21s):

I do.

Joel (32m 21s):

JobADX is the one tool you need to analyze and manage your entire job advertising process. That's right. Whether you want granular control or to set things on autopilot, your job ads follow a set of rules to create the best results showing up on hundreds of job sites focused on your goals. If you're new to programmatic or maybe you're looking to replace your current platform, you owe it to yourself to check out JobADX at That's right. That's just the letter X, not the end E-X as in ex-husband or ex-wife, something Sarah and I know a little bit about.

Joel (33m 7s):

Do yourself a favor, hit up today.

Sarah White (33m 9s):

I think programmatic is going to be big because companies that are going to, even if they're doing downsizing, everything, the companies that are going to have advantage in 2025 as we come out of this, are going to be the ones that continue to focus on their brand. And so even if they're running programmatic, not to post a job, but just keep their brand and everything out. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not trying to pitch the ad, it just made me think about the last conversation.

Joel (33m 37s):

And programmatic might help some of these job boards out there survive the oncoming doom and gloom that Sarah predicted for 2023. So if you're job board makes sure you're partnered with some of these programmatic solutions to keep the lights on if you need.

Sarah White (33m 54s):

Speaking of job boards.

Joel (33m 56s):

All right, Sarah, you may have heard a little company called Indeed, you've been around a while. A few people know who they are. So anyway, new year, new terms of service at our friends at Indeed. What first show of 2023 would be complete without talking about Indeed. By the way, obviously, no one reads Terms of Service. So we asked our resident Indeed whisperer Jim Durbin, his thoughts on what might be hiding in Indeed's Terms of Service. Here's what Jim told us. Number one, they're using for third-party verification, which means you have to upload a personal driver's license or other document when creating an account.

Joel (34m 43s):

That sounds like a real headache.

Sarah White (34m 47s):

Big Brother. Oh, I have so many-- Like just used anywhere. I just don't like at all.

Joel (34m 51s):

All right, we'll get back to that. Let me go to the rest of the--

Sarah White (34m 57s):

I'm sorry. Visceral reaction on

Joel (34m 59s):

The little surprises in Indeed's Terms of Services. All right, number two, the new salary transparency terms say that the information offered to candidates is a courtesy and not a warranty and they take no responsibility or liability for mistaken data presented on your job. So do yourself a favor, employers. Put those salary ranges on there because who knows what the fuck Indeed is gonna put on there and they're not liable for it. All right, number three, Indeed apply screening and assessments, has a section where they say they gather the data but won't hold it for you. For those government contractors dealing with OFCCP compliance, this is a problem.

Joel (35m 40s):

You can't track compliance inside Indeed's platform, even though they want you to use Indeed's platform to do everything. Number four, there's a section about stopping spam candidates by requiring a cover letter. That's not new. It's just funny. Thanks, Jim, for that little insight there. Number five, you waive your right to jury trial and class actions when you use Indeed. That's convenient, isn't it? Number six, pay per application section makes it clear. You need to set a limit on the number of applies because you will pay for all of them. Jim says he anticipates a lot of people messing this one up. They're going to be mega bills accidentally rung up because some lowly admin didn't limit the applies on every job.

Joel (36m 28s):

Sarah, I know you have to play nicely with all the vendors sometimes, but any thoughts on the updated Terms of Service or any thoughts on Indeed in general?

Sarah White (36m 38s):

Oh, I'm gonna just go super easy, right? The pay transparency thing. If you don't post it on there, they will put something on there. It's a law in a number of states. I mean pay transparency, just put it up and I know everybody's like, "Oh, well do a really small range." Like just put up a range, right? Just put something up. I'm a business owner, right? I don't always know exactly how much I'm gonna pay for a job because it depends if I find like a superstar like Joel, that's going to be very different that if my kid wants to work for me, right? And so put something up and put it in so that it's not up to them of what is going to be there and then you're having to deal with really angry people.

Sarah White (37m 20s):

So that's just a-- Whatever.

Joel (37m 22s):

Even if it's just the tip, put it in, kids.

Sarah White (37m 24s):

Oh, God.

Joel (37m 25s):

Word to the wise. And what are your thoughts on that? You got some opinions.

Sarah White (37m 32s):

Oh, here's my thing. I don't understand why we have to use all of this ID validation and verification to do all of this stuff now, but I still don't have to use it to vote, right? Like, I have to use to get like a card at Blockbuster to like pay my taxes. I have to do now to post a job on Indeed. I'm gonna have to upload my stuff and if they don't like what you uploaded or they have any question, you also, I was looking at this morning, you then have to record a video of yourself talking, which in my mind is like they want facial recognition on everybody.

Sarah White (38m 16s):

Like, uh-uh, no. So when we were headed to Paris in October, as we were boarding, they didn't even look at passports anymore. You walked in, scanned your face, and got on the flight which freaks me out. I don't, I mean, again, I live in Idaho. But this and I know it's like, "Oh, it's so advanced. How great is this? It gives validity." Now on the other side of this, there's a lot of creepers that we're using Indeed for not so great reasons, right? So I think as a candidate, maybe I would feel better knowing that the companies are ID'd. But are they also then running this through background check systems? Is there other validation?

Sarah White (38m 56s):

Are we double-checking? Like there's just a lot here that it feels more alike. You know, there's some side partnership. The other thing with is their employees hate working there. Like they have some of the lowest glass door scores I've ever seen. And if these people that hate being there have access to my personal data, right? Like, let's say there's big round of layoffs, are they gonna be downloading everybody's personal data and being able like, I don't know, it just weirds me out.

Joel (39m 26s):

By the way, Sarah hasn't joined our get-free-shit list because she lives in a bunker in Idaho and has no address whatsoever. So that's why that is. By the way, because all of our listeners are mostly degenerates, I was reading a story about, Kansas I believe has just passed a law that if you use porn sites or want to look at porn sites, you have to register through in order to do that.

Sarah White (39m 53s):

I mean, it makes sense. It should be much harder to look at porn than to vote for a president.

Joel (39m 58s):


Sarah White (39m 59s):

I mean that makes--

Joel (40m 1s):

We gotta keep the kids safe, Sarah, keep the kids safe.

Sarah White (40m 4s):

It's all fake. You're gonna be Speaker of House so you know how it's all--

Joel (40m 8s):

I should be Speaker of the House. I should be President actually of the world.

Sarah White (40m 12s):

Of the whole world.

Joel (40m 15s):

Speaking of presidents, we got some new CEOs in our industry.

Sarah White (40m 20s):

Yeah, a lot.

Joel (40m 21s):

So it's not only the season for gumdrops and candy canes, it's apparently the season of new CEOs. At least three vendors announced new leadership recently. First up, Workday announced the appointment of Carl Eschenbach to co-CEO effective immediately. Chano Fernandez has stepped down as Co-CEO and as a member of the Workday Board of Directors. Aneel Bushri, co-CEO, co-founder and chair will remain co-CEO through January 2024. Next up is Snagajob. They've promoted Keith Forshew to CEO. He led the company's Product and Operations team as Chief Product Officer.

Joel (41m 2s):

Prior to Snagajob, he was also Senior VP of Operations at Elance, which is now Upwork. And lastly, San Fran based When I Work has appointed Blake Adams as its next CEO, a Morehouse and Stanford grad. Adams, an African-American as previous stints at Google, Intuit and most recently Bain Capital. Sarah, I count three new ATS CEOs from last year and now three new CEOs step in as we head into 2023. What do you make of all this musical chairs?

Sarah White (41m 36s):

I think it supports exactly what I'm expecting to see in 2023. And we're going to see a lot more. If you look at the background of the people that are moving into C Suite in a lot of these roles, a lot of them come from a product background or from an investment background. And some of them have shockingly light backgrounds outside of pedigree, right? And so, you know, like--

Joel (42m 7s):

Sequoia, Bain.

Sarah White (42m 8s):

You know, I went to this university so I'm clearly better for this job. And so I think it's going to be very interesting. I think the other trend we're seeing is a lot of people that don't come from the industry moving in, which has not typically been something that has been highly beneficial for vendors when they do this. As I said, we do a lot of the investment side work. The number of times we get called in as either a turnaround or like why isn't things going better after they've brought in a whole new executive team that has literally never had any experience in HR, no experience in recruiting, never sold products like this at all is significantly high.

Sarah White (42m 49s):

So I'm expecting we're gonna be quite busy in about 12 to 18 months doing some cleanup work after some of these hires. On the other case, some of them are really solid, some of the products need to fix or some of the companies need to fix the product. So having a leader that can be really product-focused is good. I don't know if I would take those steps when we're going into this type of thing. Unless their assumption is we're gonna double down and we're gonna focus on fixing the product, much like a lot of companies did in 2020. We know these are gonna be two slow years. We're going to build that next generation of tech and we're just going to like counter losses for the next two years.

Joel (43m 31s):


Sarah White (43m 32s):

Which is also something I know that some of the organizations are gonna be focused on.

Joel (43m 36s):

Yeah. A trend I see as well is people who know people who can write checks are being made CEOs. So I think some deals are gonna be done. So I think Workday is probably the most impactful of these announcements for people. It's a public company, huge company. A lot of people are Workday clients. So Workday stock is down 37 percemt year over year. That's not news for a lot of tech companies. But in a world where employment is strong, it seems like there was probably some pressure to fix that situation. On the news that they have a new co-CEO, the stock went down 2 percent on that news. So at least Wall Street is voting that this is probably not a great deal whenever you lose a co-founder, it's usually not good.

Joel (44m 18s):

So it's a sort of a double whammy here as you're losing a co-founder and you're gaining a co-CEO. None of this sounds good if I'm an investor in Workday. No, you know, you mentioned industry expertise. This guy is from Sequoia, he's got a great resume. I'm sure he picked up many chicks back in the day when that was, you know, the clubs in Silicon Valley. But anyway, he looks great on paper. He looks great on screen.

Sarah White (44m 44s):

Has a whole closet of Patagonia.

Joel (44m 45s):

We'll see where the hell that goes. That sounds like a real fucked up situation. In terms of Snagajob, they couldn't even go outside to get anybody for that job. They had to like pluck the nearest just scrub to come in and take that job. So this is the company that has fallen so far.

Sarah White (45m 7s):

Scrub, but--

Joel (45m 8s):

Hey, this is a live show, man. Words just come out. It's just, you know--

Sarah White (45m 16s):

But it isn't interesting. Yeah.

Joel (45m 17s):

Snagajob has fallen big time. When you and I started, they were probably top five or six job sites, right? And they've fallen off a cliff and now you have a relatively shitty product that hasn't innovated and you make this Chief Product Officer of the crappy product your CEO, like, I don't know how to connect the dots that that's a good thing for Snagajob. Like, this dude might totally blow my mind and fix the product, but I see that as a shitty job that they gave to someone who was like next in line and the dumpster fire in terms of my viewpoint is gonna keep on raging at Snagajob.

Sarah White (45m 58s):

Well, and I think the challenge specifically with Snagajob with him is, you know, again, he's relatively newer to the industry, right? Like 2019, he joined them, joined directly as Chief Product Officer. One of the challenges that we see with some of the legacy products that you and I knew back from the 2000s and kind of the turn of the 10s is that these founders and these investors and people that had success in 2008 to 2012, when the success starts slowing down, they doubled down on what they did right 10 years ago instead of looking at where the market is and they will not take outside opinion because they're so confident in what this is.

Sarah White (46m 43s):

And we see this so, so much. And I think that's when I see a lot of internal movement sometimes that's my concern. Now, when you have people from the outside come in, it is not uncommon for them to be completely thrown under the bus and nobody will make change because everybody's also so ingrained. It's kind of a no-win situation unless you have a total cultural shift and change of like, let's make some serious moves. But if you're not willing, I mean if I was Snagajob, I would be doing a massive rebrand. I would be updating my name, I would be really looking at my product strategy focus. I would be really kind of thinking about what do we wanna be in 2024, 2025 in order to make it out and be around for another decade.

Joel (47m 31s):

Yeah. But they're gonna be gun-shy doing that. I mean they released, remember the old CEO? They launched Snag, or whatever. It was an app. It was gonna be like service industry get paid with an app. Like they took a big swing a few years ago and pulled back on that quickly and went sort of like status quo. So I think it's gonna be hard for them to take a big swing.

Sarah White (47m 54s):

So they took a big swing on something and we see this with TA vendors all the time, right? They have really good ideas of stuff that work outside of TA and probably have a different type of buyer and would make sense for them to expand, but they want to not take the time to understand how those buyers operate. So the stuff that they did with kind of the same day pay and all of that huge market, like one we actually have a big report coming out on continuous pay, huge market, huge amount of growth, big investment. They could have sold that off so quickly had they done this right, made a ton of money off of it, but they were so set on selling it to the wrong people. And we see this all the time, like, you know, again, doubling down into what you know because you don't want to pull in the outside expertise to actually make money, right?

Sarah White (48m 40s):

Like I say all the time, my job is to make you money. I don't care if you listen to me or not, don't listen to me, whatever. Somebody else is gonna wanna make money.

Joel (48m 49s):

So if you're listening at Snagajob, it's time to create your TikTok account if you wanna save the company.

Sarah White (48m 56s):

No, please don't do that.

Joel (48m 58s):

So lastly, like I don't shit about when I work, they're not in crunch base. I don't know if they've taken money, bootstrap, whatever, but there's a new CEO.

Sarah White (49m 6s):

They're actually pretty cool.

Joel (49m 9s):

Like look, we talk a lot about, you know, diversity inclusion in our industry. We talk a good game and we largely more or less talk the talk and not walk the walk. So for me, anytime I see a person of color take over at a company, our industry, like I'm a fan, this guy's got a good resume. He's just getting started. But I'd say when I work is one to at least keep your eye on in 2023 and going forward, maybe we can get that dude on the show to talk about what's going on.

Sarah White (49m 39s):

The product's actually really good. So workforce management type of technology, not really a TA type of tool, but I think what they are doing and bringing in access to the contingent workforce also mixed in, they're going to be coming in and playing pretty hard against some of the legacy solutions.

Joel (49m 57s):


Sarah White (49m 57s):

So definitely should take a look at it.

Joel (49m 60s):

So it sounds like I'm buying one of the three CEOs and you're buying two of the three if I'm playing, would you rather or buy or sell?

Sarah White (50m 8s):

I am not buying any of them yet. I haven't seen what their plan is. I cannot, yeah. I like the products.

Joel (50m 17s):

So Midwest polite. So Midwest polite. Have some more cheese curds. And speaking of what you should be buying, kids, have you heard one of our foreign language shows, Sarah?

Sarah White (50m 26s):

I haven't. I want to. Maybe that'll teach me.

Joel (50m 31s):

Do you speak a foreign language?

Sarah White (50m 32s):


Joel (50m 32s):

You speak French?

Sarah White (50m 33s):

Croissant. No, just, that's all I know how to do.

Joel (50m 37s):

No, English. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Again, yeah. Polite mid-westerner like me. We speak American. But anyway--

Sarah White (50m 47s):

Give me a croissant, please.

Joel (50m 50s):

Give me a croissant, yeah. So I mentioned Veritone does our foreign language podcasts. Veritone acquired Pandologic a year or two ago. Now time flies by now that I'm getting, getting older. But Pandologic sponsored the show. I want to highlight that the things that Pando is doing and starting to do with Veritone is like pretty mindblowing. I mean, we're talking like prediction and targeting automation algorithms that'll blow your mind. Big data that makes big data look small if that makes sense.

Sarah White (51m 24s):


Joel (51m 25s):

If you haven't given a look at Pandologic, I can tell you that if you've given them a look before, it's time to give them another look because the stuff that they're developing, I've looked behind the curtain, I've seen the Wizard, some crazy good shit's going on at Pando. Do yourself a favor. Go, go give them a call, get a demo of the product, see what's going on new. If you're a current client, good for you. You're gonna see some really good stuff come down the pike in 2023 in terms of AI, voice recognition, different languages, like they're gonna do stuff that blows your mind. They bought a chatbot Wade and Wendy a while back. The stuff they're gonna do with that is really, really, really cool.

Joel (52m 9s):

So anyway, head out to That's www.pando, P-A-N-D-O, logic, as in Spock, Tell them Chad and Cheese sent you.

Sarah White (52m 22s):

Can I just say--?

Joel (52m 23s):

Go ahead. After-- Way to go, man. Way to script the transition. Again, this is the raw version of this show. All right, Sarah, go ahead. Give us something about Pandologic.

Sarah White (52m 34s):

They are some of the nicest people that I have met, like their whole team. We meet with, I personally meet with about 250 vendors a year. So we're meeting with products and companies all the time. And I am not known as being the kindest person. You know, I will call them out, I challenge them.

Joel (52m 57s):


Sarah White (52m 57s):

I know. I'm nice in public, but like I'll challenge them on their BS and their whatever. They are some of the nicest people, and everything I pushed on, they were able to answer, show me, respond to, not in a deck, but actually in the product. So yeah, very, very nice.

Joel (53m 16s):

And there's a legacy at this company that goes way back and the core competencies of that company. I mean, you mentioned nice, but from Terry Baker down, like knowledgeable core competency. They got something going on.

Sarah White (53m 29s):

Yeah. Like they have the skills. Yeah, none of these people were, you know, kind of "I could write a check hires."

Joel (53m 35s):

Gotcha. Yeah. Can I transition to the next story now?

Sarah White (53m 37s):

You can because I'm excited for the next one.

Joel (53m 44s):

Yeah. Okay, here we go. All right. So 2022 was the year of quiet quitting. And we've heard 2023 might be the year of the loud layoffs. But for one Walmart worker, it's the year of loud quitting. An employee took to Instagram last month in order to resign. We got the audio, take a listen and we'll discuss on the other side.

Walmart Audio (54m 10s):

Attention, Walmart shoppers and associates. My name is Beth from Electronics. I've been working at Walmart for almost five years, and I can say that everyone here is overworked and underpaid. The attendance policy is <BLEEP>. We are treated by management and customers poorly every day. Whenever we have a problem with it, we're told that we're replaceable. I'm tired of the constant gaslighting. This company treats their elderly associates like <BLEEP>. To Jared, our store manager, you're pervert. Shame on you all for treating your associates the way you do. I hope you don't speak to your families the way you speak to us. Shout out to Monique, Patty Ardell, and so many more.

Walmart Audio (54m 55s):

Walmart doesn't deserve you all. fuck management. Fuck this job. I quit.

Sarah White (54m 59s):

I love her.

Joel (55m 1s):

All right. Yeah. Emily's not happy. So, Sarah, disgruntled employee meets social media. So many questions. Is Instagram and TikTok the new Glass Door? Did she destroy her career? Employer brand nightmares gone wild. I don't know where to begin. Where do you want?

Sarah White (55m 18s):

Okay, so one, I don't know if you-- She made the comment about elderly workforce, I don't know if you know this or not, but I don't know if they still do it, but for a long time, Walmart took out life insurance policies on their elderly door greeters that they were beneficiaries.

Joel (55m 35s):

They would be the beneficiaries of? Really? Is that legal?

Sarah White (55m 39s):

I don't know. Yes, so I was just reading about this week. So I don't know how this works, but so when she said that, I'm like, "Oh, I just learned about this last week." Second, Insta, like the kids aren't using Insta, it's us, right? It's us trying to be like, "Look at my 14 likes."

Joel (55m 59s):

They're on TikTok.

Sarah White (56m 1s):

They are on TikTok, which this was on TikTok. That's where, you know, it got shared on there. But you know what else is on TikTok? All of the layoffs that are happening are getting recorded and uploaded. All of the other stuff, the pervy managers, right? Like good for her for calling. This guy probably has had so many complaints about him, but he's probably, you know, his Karen in HR that is his buddy who probably has no HR experience, but he promoted into HR to cover for him. Like, yes, good for her, good for her.

Joel (56m 35s):

And she did not ruin her career as far as you're concerned?

Sarah White (56m 39s):

If she ruined her career by speaking the truth, it's at companies that you shouldn't wanna work for. And I think that's one of the things we have to start, you know-- I feel like we've all been gaslit by companies for a long time into pretending like we have to just be okay with whatever happens, especially as women. I was talking to a young woman this week who basically was like, I feel like I've been taught my entire life that I have to just like smile and nod and go along with whatever is happening. And I'm like, "Well, yeah, but you don't. We did, but we don't anymore." My goal for 2023 is calling out gaslighters on LinkedIn, by the way.

Joel (57m 19s):

So let me reach into my inner Grinch since we've just had Christmas. I wouldn't touch Emily with a 39-and-a-half foot pole. If one of my kids did this, I'd slap them upside the head, "Did I not teach you anything?"

Sarah White (57m 32s):

A hundred percent.

Joel (57m 32s):

What a dumb thing to do. I know it's great for likes and virtual signaling and the dopamine hit of social media, but this is a dumb thing to do, kids. If you're out there listening and you think about dropping some shit like this on TikTok or wherever, take it from your Uncle Joel, don't do that shit. It's stupid. There's tools now that will find this shit out. There's algorithms and companies that will find this stuff and people will not hire you if you do this. So it sounds great. And it's like, yeah, good for her power toEmily, but don't do this shit, kids. Just dont.

Sarah White (58m 12s):

Yeah, don't. Like, I would be pissed if my kids did this, but I would ask what happened to get to this point, right? Like what it was, did he do something that finally triggered this? Did something else happen? Like what was that? And I would look at that and I think if I am Walmart, I'm seriously looking at all of these accusations regardless of what this is. I'm looking at the store pretty closely and I'm looking at some of these things. And I think what other businesses should be doing is figuring out how they can create a true level of conversation. So I love this, not necessarily because her for her, but like in general, companies need to come up with a better path so that when things are not going right, I'll tell you again, I've been investigating TikTok.

Sarah White (59m 6s):

I sound like an elderly person, but I've been on that.

Joel (59m 10s):

Investigating TikTok.

Sarah White (59m 11s):

I have and seeing how it's being like used and done and like where all this type of stuff is. Employees do not like HR. They don't trust HR when stuff is going on. They don't trust HR to go complain about their boss that's being pervy. They don't trust HR to go do this because it's one, half of the HR influencers on TikTok are telling people not to trust their companies which I find that is incredibly fascinating on its own. But hopefully, this opens up some conversations. I think had this been in more of a corporate setting, like the girl that downloaded and destroyed all the files, I wouldn't touch her at all.

Sarah White (59m 52s):

Yeah. I think this probably a little bit different only because the type of job and the setting it was in, I doubt she will have as big of an issue finding her next job as somebody that, like the girl that went in and destroyed all of the files that she created because she was getting let go.

Joel (1h 0m 14s):

Is TikTok the new Glass Door? And if you're an employer, how do you plan damage control shit like this that happens?

Sarah White (1h 0m 22s):

You fix your shit before it happens, right? And so we have to get out of the mindset where everything is gonna be out about damage control. If you treat your employees correctly from the first place and you treat your candidates well, you treat your employees well and you build a company that actually cares and respects for its workforce, you won't have the same type of anger. This type of stuff happens after a breaking point of many months, years of quite honestly corporate abuse. And so companies even that are doing layoffs were doing a big layoff study. We're publishing on like ethical layoffs next week. We've talked to a lot of people that were laid off and many of them have nothing but positive things to say about their company.

Sarah White (1h 1m 3s):

Some of them go irate, right? But the ones that are irate talk about how much they worked, how much they were never appreciated. Everything about the end response comes down to like a much longer story. And is it the new Glassdoor, eh? I mean Glassdoor is what, 13 years old at this point? 14 years old.

Joel (1h 1m 22s):

It's a little gray.

Sarah White (1h 1m 24s):

You know, I think we are getting past the point of review sites. It's like, you know, TripAdvisor, all of these things. Huge. These are huge 10, 12 years ago. You know, now they're going directly to the source because they know everything else is orchestrated. Our age people I'm sure are still going to Glassdoor.

Joel (1h 1m 50s):

They're white, everybody. Did you have fun?

Sarah White (1h 1m 52s):

I did. Thanks. It's only taken 17 years to get on one of your podcasts.

Joel (1h 1m 57s):

I was not podcasting 17 years ago.

Sarah White (1h 1m 59s):

You did. You had Cheese.

Joel (1h 1m 59s):

It wasn't this though. We're on video now. We're like the kids now. We're like the kids now. Well, thanks for getting up early there in PandaHo or whatever it is that you live. For those that don't know you or wanna learn more about the company or connect with you, where do you send them?

Sarah White (1h 2m 20s):

Yeah, so is my company and where you could find it. We publish a ton of research and reports and everything for practitioners entirely free. So there you don't have to sign up, you'll never get bothered again. Everything is free from that perspective. And we are also launching HR Tech Circle next week I believe. We're uploading everything in which is our brand new site, which is entirely for practitioners and it is thought leadership, resources, downloads, case studies from about 40 different vendors in the industry. So you can stop jumping around on Google in all of these places and just go to one place and find it all.

Joel (1h 3m 4s):

Thanks, Sarah. Everybody, Chad will be back. Things will be a little bit more back to normal. Until then, Sarah, we out.

Sarah White (1h 3m 16s):

Thank you. We out.

Chad and Cheese (1h 3m 18s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepperjack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhow, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts that way you won't miss an episode.

Chad and Cheese (1h 4m 5s):

And while you're at it, visit Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.


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