People Push Back Against AI-First Workplaces

Buckle up for a wild ride with Joel Cheesman and Emi Beredugo, where they sling HR hot takes with the finesse of a fast-food fry cook! This episode’s a rollercoaster of laughs and eye-rolls, diving into the AI-first workplace fiasco like it’s a soap opera. Klarna’s CEO got a reality check after ditching 700 customer service reps for AI, only to realize bots can’t sweet-talk angry customers. Now they’re on a hiring spree to bring back the human touch—oops!

Duolingo, meanwhile, thought AI could teach languages better than people, but TikTok’s Gen Z army clapped back, rage-quitting the app and calling it “disgusting.” Ouch, that’s gotta sting.Then there’s IBM’s bigwig, Arvind Krishna, tossing shade at HR by saying AI freed up cash for “essential” jobs like sales.

Emi’s not having it, firing back that HR’s the backbone of fairness and inclusion, not just fluffy admin work. She’s all about adapting to AI without yeeting humans into oblivion.

LinkedIn’s new AI job search gets a nod for letting you type “I wanna save the world in sweatpants” and matching you with dream gigs, aiming to hook passive job seekers while sparing recruiters from resume spam.

Wrapping up, they tackle the EU’s 2026 Pay Transparency Directive, a game-changer forcing companies to spill salary tea upfront to shrink gender pay gaps and stop wasting everyone’s time. But, plot twist: firms better get their org charts in order or face a discrimination lawsuit mess. And they serve it all with wit juicier and tastier than a McDonald’s chicken strip!

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:35.897)

Yeah, big P O P P a no info for the DEA. Hey boys and girls. It's the Chen Cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel the real creator of the world equalized cheeseman

Emi B (00:49.102)

And this is Emmy, the Duchess of Borodego.

Joel Cheesman (00:52.173)

And on this episode, it's earnings season again. Score one for the humans and pay transparency anarchy in the UK. Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:05.963)

Emmy, what's good?

Emi B (01:07.662)

Hey, how you doing? How you doing? It's been a long time since you've just been me and you on the podcast. Yeah, yes.

Joel Cheesman (01:13.005)

I think it was last year, November. Yeah, before the holidays, it was a good primer for some downtime. And now Chad is Euro Chad, full effect. We'll get to his video in a second where he explains what's going on. But how you been?

Emi B (01:21.262)

Absolutely.

Emi B (01:26.678)

You

Emi B (01:31.309)

Do you know what? I have, I'm now looking forward to a holiday. I'm just looking at my calendar and thinking, it's mid May. I haven't been on holiday since October. So yeah. Just a little, I just want to chill. I just want to be on the beach exactly sipping a margarita. And I, yeah. look.

Joel Cheesman (01:39.822)

Yeah.

Typical European. Time for a little vacation, a little holiday.

Joel Cheesman (01:53.357)

Now is your passport up to date? Is your passport renewed? You don't want to get into that again. There you go.

Emi B (01:58.7)

Don't, don't, please. Like I'm getting like trauma and like PTSD and like the whole passport debacle. But yes, my passport is now renewed.

Joel Cheesman (02:07.961)

Well, I'm glad I'm glad you told me that story. So you're if I'm if I'm encapsulating this, you went on holiday. It wasn't you have to renew up to six months or six months prior to to leaving the country, which alerted me to think, I probably need to renew mine. And I got to say government efficiency can happen. I renewed my passport totally online.

Emi B (02:14.838)

Yeah.

Emi B (02:26.018)

Yeah?

Emi B (02:35.298)

Really? And it all worked? Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (02:35.449)

I didn't go into a post office. I didn't like fill out any forms. The picture that I got, we go to drug store. People will know Walgreens. And they usually give you little hard copy photos and then you like put that and you take it to the post office. They gave me a digital copy this time and I thought, well, that's kind of weird. Like why would I'm not going to print it out and send it? It's not my new Christmas card, right? But they gave me digital and they gave me digital because

Emi B (02:41.036)

Yeah.

Emi B (02:56.226)

What, like on a floppy disk? Or how do I do it? On a chip? Or...

Joel Cheesman (03:03.689)

On in America now you can up renew your passport. can upload the photo. You don't have to send in your old old passport. So I did it and it's probably been about two weeks and I got an email yesterday that it is on the way. So if you haven't renewed your passport, if you're thinking like, it's going to be a pain in the ass, it's really quite easy now. So I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US now, at least if you already have a passport, it's super easy to renew it.

Emi B (03:06.413)

Yeah.

Emi B (03:23.512)

Just get online, yeah.

Emi B (03:30.03)

I think I'm pretty sure we can do it online, but I went in and I did a 24, no, a couple of hours one. So went in, filled out all my forms, came back a couple of hours later. So I got my new black passport, which is really weird because my last passport was red. So anyone online looking at it and it's cheap and flimsy, but yeah, that's me now. Yeah. So I can go on holiday soon.

Joel Cheesman (03:36.429)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (03:44.782)

huh. Yeah, they're right.

Joel Cheesman (03:52.035)

Is there, stupid question, is there a reason why it's kind of, it was kind of a burgundy, right? The British passport.

Emi B (03:57.782)

Yeah, that'll be Brexit. Brexit with all the fuck-ups and changing everything and making everything worse means that we now have black passports.

Joel Cheesman (04:02.914)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (04:09.571)

So is a, like if I'm in France, is it that burgundy?

Emi B (04:12.312)

Yeah.

What if you're British and going to France?

Joel Cheesman (04:18.617)

No, your passport used to be burgundy and now it's black. Is there a reason why it was burgundy? It's not Brexit, is it? Like, Brexit wasn't like, we're gonna make passports black now.

Emi B (04:20.928)

Yeah. Yeah.

No, we... But I think that's part of the reason. So when Brexit happened and we left the EU, we now have the black passport saying United Kingdom, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, British passports. All of our passports are black. Yeah, because we left the EU. Honestly, it's flimsy. My Lord is flimsy. I mean, I've just bent it for anyone looking online, but crap.

Joel Cheesman (04:38.721)

Okay. And you say it's cheap.

Wow.

The US one now it's like a it's almost like a credit card. The first the main like with your picture and everything. It's it's really yeah, it's really it's really robust. So yeah, we're

Emi B (04:53.384)

really?

they speak to the guys over here, please. Honestly, this one's shit. We need a new passport. It's crap, honestly.

Joel Cheesman (05:02.787)

As long as the barcode works and they get you in and out of the...

Emi B (05:05.486)

Yeah, as long as it gets me on the freaking plane next month on the beach. I'm not even supposed to be in the country. Do remember last month I said I was supposed to be in Dubai hunting down, you know, the, you know, being involved in a deal and rippling saga. Yeah, I'm still here. So hopefully, hopefully July, I will be there. June or July.

Joel Cheesman (05:12.973)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:25.261)

Well, here's your chance to show off how much vacation time do you get as a British citizen?

Emi B (05:29.678)

I think to be fair, I've got holiday rolled over. So I think at the moment I've got about 35 days rolled over. I probably actually shouldn't say this online because my, yeah, yeah, just going to rub it in. And my manager will be listening and probably so will my VP go, no, I mean, haven't spent your holidays. But yeah, I've got loads of holiday, loads of holiday, but we normally get about 28 days. So I will be chilling on that beach. Absolutely.

Joel Cheesman (05:33.241)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (05:54.327)

Loads of holiday loads of holiday, but we're glad we're glad you made time for the show this week, especially with with chat out. So without further ado, let's get to some shout outs. As you know, shout out sponsored by our friends up North, Kiora that's tech recruiting made simple and affordable. I'm going to start with my shout out. My shout out goes to McDonald's McDonald's. That's right. You got them all over the world and it's fast food. So it's

Emi B (06:06.263)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (06:23.609)

right up my alley, but I'm going to give you three reasons why McDonald's gets a shout out for me. Mickey D's is crushing it. First, they drop chicken strips on the menu. They have the chicken sandwich, the chicken nuggets. Now they got the chicken strips and they have a new creamy sriracha sauce that's just to die for. So that's just one reason I'm giving them a shout out. Number two is they have a new chief people officer, guy named Pat Myers who previously served at Target.

and did some cool things there. So we'll be seeing some probably interesting things from them. And lastly, they announced last week or this week that they plan on hiring up to 375,000 people as they look to open 900 new US locations through 2027. I'm loving it. I'm loving it. McDonald's gets a big shout out from me.

Emi B (07:05.774)

thousand.

Emi B (07:15.106)

Wow. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (07:21.123)

Gotta love it. What you got, Emmy?

Emi B (07:23.15)

So my shout out is for, it's actually for a person. So you may not have heard of this person in the US, but if you're in the UK, hopefully you have. you know, if you haven't, go check him out. His name is called Keith Rosser. So Keith Rosser, he doesn't know I'm doing this by the way. So I'm going to see him tomorrow and I'll let him know. But he's actually the director of Read Screening. And he's also the chair of an organization called the Better Hiring Institute. So.

Joel Cheesman (07:45.326)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (07:51.52)

In my opinion, Keith is a bit of a powerhouse in the world of recruiting. And the reason why I think he's a powerhouse is because he knows his stuff inside out when it comes to TA. But most recently, he's been working with the UK Parliament and he's been working with them to create the first ever UK hiring task force. Now, this hiring task force is all about putting UK hiring on a map. we know we're coming for the US and hopefully we're going to be number one. And the idea is to make...

Joel Cheesman (08:17.219)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (08:21.642)

What? Okay, listen, we will gonna be number one, you wrestling listeners. You're be learning from us.

Joel Cheesman (08:26.105)

It's not 1892 anymore, I mean, sorry to tell you.

Emi B (08:28.974)

Okay, whatever. But the idea is to put the UK hiring on the global map. So we're going to make the UK hiring better. We're going to make it faster. We're going to make it fairer as well. So he's got big goals, big ambitions. So really, really important goals. And look, to be honest, I'm really excited because I'm going to be working alongside him as part of this task force. And even better, because I checked his profile out today and he has a link on LinkedIn. He said that the word has actually spread

outside of the UK and it's open in US. So the White House is actually sending someone over. So I'm going to be meeting someone. So let's see how that goes tomorrow. like I said, hats off to Keith. He's making history. So well done. Congratulations, Keith.

Joel Cheesman (09:16.035)

like that you pronounced it Keith and not Keefe, which is a typical English.

Emi B (09:19.086)

Listen, I'm trying to push up for the podcast. mean, I'm from Southeast London for anyone who's from London. Like I ordinarily say, Keith.

Joel Cheesman (09:25.315)

Hosh up for the podcast.

Joel Cheesman (09:31.683)

Posh up. I'm going to use that this weekend. I'm going to Posh up for the weekend. Yeah. You know, you know, I love, you know, I love, I love the Brits. I love Britain. mean, ancestry says I'm 60 plus percent British and Scott or English and Scottish. So I'm all about the Brits. but just

Emi B (09:35.502)

why I called myself the Dutchess, you know, I've got to pretend, you know.

Emi B (09:48.272)

there you go. There you go. And I love the Americans as well. I told you before, I was supposed to live in America and then life took a different turn, a different path for me, but you never know. One day, one day, in about four years time though. Yeah. Let's have that conversation again in about four years time. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:53.945)

I you.

Joel Cheesman (10:02.081)

I'd like to say the door, I'd like to say the door is wide open, but I'm not sure in Trump's America that it is wide open. Although

Yeah. Yeah. Cause we do, we do have a spot open because Chad, as you know, has left the country and is now in Portugal and, in Chad and Chad fashion, he's, he's, he's got an excuse. I'm not sure I'm buying it. I'm going to, I'm going to play his video. sent this in from the beach. Very nice of him to do that, but let's check this out to see why, why Chad is not here and what his shout out is.

Emi B (10:15.342)

Exactly, we can replace. Yeah, one in one out.

Emi B (10:26.082)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (10:49.902)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (12:00.458)

He's okay. Look at him. He's okay.

Joel Cheesman (12:01.669)

I don't know. Do they have clouds in Portugal? I swear every video he's in, it's just clear blue skies everywhere.

Emi B (12:10.158)

And look at it, I'm just at the beach chilling like, yeah, of course my mic broke down at the last minute. Chad, we don't believe you. You're lazy. What are you doing? Get back on the mic.

Joel Cheesman (12:23.033)

All right, real quickly, Chad's getting into my lane here a little bit. There are no sweet and sour peppers on a Portillo's Italian beef. It's either sweet or hot. This sour thing, no clue. And my challenge to Joe Shaker and Matt Lavery is, is there any difference between the Leo and just a regular Portillo's Italian beef? Because I see nothing different. They're selling it differently.

Emi B (12:31.374)

I love this. I love how you know. You know your food.

Joel Cheesman (12:51.801)

But it's pretty much the same ingredients from what I can tell. so unless I'm wrong, let's get some Chicagoans in on this. And by the way, Chicago Pope one, uh, green Bay Pope zero, just in case you're keeping those, they're big rivalries by the way. Uh, if you don't know me. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, there Portela's, uh, tying beefs are not free Emmy, but we have, we have free stuff, uh, from Chad and sheaves.

Emi B (13:03.37)

are they? Okay, okay, I'm learning.

Emi B (13:15.054)

Okay. Come on.

Joel Cheesman (13:18.871)

more stuff to love about us. So, we were giving away whiskey, some bourbon from our friends at Van Hack, more Canadians, as you know, we have a nice selection of chicken cock for everybody, that gets to win that. course, everyone loves chicken cock.

That's right. That's right. We have free t-shirts from our friends at Aaron, Aaron app.com. Uh, we also have free beer from our homeboys and home girls at Aspen tech labs. And yeah, you know how we do, you know how we do. If it's your birthday, we might send you a bottle of rum from our friends at plum, not to mention free syrup from our friends at Keora. That's Pappy's bourbon aged.

Emi B (13:37.057)

You

Joel Cheesman (14:05.485)

barrel syrup. So who's celebrating a birthday this week and last week because we missed I was in Vegas. got Jim Lowe, Alicia Buchler, Lucas Roscoe, Karen Heatwool, Katie Gentry, John Tehan, Kevin Lowe, Alan Jason Bourne, Laura Martinelli, Nikos Lavidas, Loka, Paul Norman, Ed Newman, Jenny Rutt, and Ward Crispin.

Chrisman, sorry, I'll celebrate another trip around the sun, which leaves us to travel sponsored by our friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing while they're having some portillas. We'll be thinking about them as well. We'll be at Wreckfest, Emmy, as you know, which you will as well. That's July 11th, 11th, 12th, yeah?

Emi B (14:39.384)

Happy birthday.

Emi B (14:50.164)

Yes, I will be there. 11th, I think. I was going to say 10th or 11th. It's one of those days.

Joel Cheesman (14:57.795)

10th, 11th, 12th. It's that Thursday in there, whatever that Thursday is. Cole Cheeseman is making his third appearance in Nebworth. He'll be passing out t-shirts, taking notes, and maybe I can even talk him into having a beer. Otherwise, we'll have some fun there. Anything you're looking forward to at Nebworth in particular?

Emi B (15:19.47)

Do you know who I am looking forward to? Now she's going to love this. I met this fabulous, I'm telling you, fabulous woman last week. Actually, she's from the US, flew over from the UK, and she is just a similar role to me. She does a recruiting enablerment role. And for people who don't know, there's not many of us around in the world. Recruiting enablers quite an emerging function. So I remember when I joined the company, I remember that kind of stalking and LinkedIn.

Joel Cheesman (15:21.739)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (15:27.991)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (15:41.049)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (15:48.832)

Now I had the pleasure of meeting her in person, but she's also going to be talking at RecFest and she's actually going to be talking on the stage that I'm hosting. So if anyone's thinking of coming down, definitely buy your tickets, definitely get over, watch Molly on stage. She is fantastic.

Joel Cheesman (16:03.15)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (16:06.849)

I'm glad you mentioned poetry, which is run by a bunch of Scots from what I understand, and I'm looking forward to seeing my favorite Scott.

Emi B (16:15.598)

Stephen will be there.

Joel Cheesman (16:17.235)

One Stephen McGrath and I'm also excited if you see the see the thing behind me there. Does that? Does that mean anything to you? Yeah, so so. So no Asus, the cover band is the entertainment this year again at Neoworth. At least that's that's the rumor, so I am really excited, excited about that to get back to the UK. Alright, before we get to topics, we got some.

Emi B (16:25.41)

Definitely maybe. Oasis, so maybe gonna be the one that saves me. yeah, I heard that.

Joel Cheesman (16:46.873)

layoff news to talk about Microsoft laying the hammer down on about 6,000 employees. That's about 3 % of their workforce. Chegg, 22 % of their workforce match group, which owns Tinder and a bunch of dating apps that I'm sure you've never heard of. 13 % and CrowdStrike, 5%. As far as LinkedIn impact, they're owned by Microsoft. There is some evidence that some LinkedIn people got laid off. Someone on LinkedIn.

Emi B (17:02.435)

Never.

Emi B (17:09.71)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (17:15.883)

Ironically said today has been a rough one in which a lot of good friends, colleagues and world class talent will be leaving us and other users said the laughs would be the largest at the company since 2023 when Microsoft eliminated 10,000 jobs. Any comments on the layoffs? They certainly keep coming.

Emi B (17:34.574)

Yeah, and it's, do you know what? is, I feel for those people because those people who are getting laid off at the moment are going into really crap market. And I keep seeing online, I keep seeing on LinkedIn, I keep talking to people who are great at their jobs. They are fantastic. They know their jobs inside out, but there are so many people being laid off. So when they're applying for jobs, they're competing against so many people. And I'm not talking about

You know, in the past, maybe people may be out of work for three months, maybe six months. I know great people who've been out of work for over a year, or they're at a certain level or were at a certain level in their previous jobs. And they're now having to drop down to lower levels just to get back into the marketplace because people have got bills to pay, you know? And I think that's just a, you know, it's not just in the U.S. We have that in the UK. We have that in other countries as well.

So it is upsetting, it is hard and I do feel for those people.

Joel Cheesman (18:36.857)

Yeah, and a lot of it seems like it was at the management level, which we've talked about how Gen X is getting fucked again in life and how they've reached a point where they should be really crushing it financially and professionally. And they're too highly paid. So let's let's put millennials in their place who are lesser lesser paid and get rid of Gen X. So all right, we're here for it. We're here for it, America. Gen X, Gen X sex will kill you. Drugs will kill you. Everything sucks.

Emi B (18:39.884)

Hmm. Yeah.

Emi B (18:48.867)

Yeah.

Emi B (18:58.062)

We got you.

Joel Cheesman (19:04.941)

We're used to it. We're used to it. Let's get to topic. Shall we?

Emi B (19:07.724)

It might get better.

Joel Cheesman (19:12.569)

All right, let's talk a little man versus machine, shall we? I Klarna and Duolingo, early adapters of an AI-first workplace are facing challenges in balancing AI automation with human labor. First up, let's talk about Klarna after replacing 700 customer service agents with AI. They're now planning a hiring spree to ensure human customer support, citing quality concerns. Shocker.

Emi B (19:14.926)

Mmm

Joel Cheesman (19:37.998)

with an over reliance on AI in the past. Emmy, what's your take on Klarna's news?

Emi B (19:43.566)

So my take is that this Sebastian guy who's the CEO of Klana, I think that his cockiness has actually, you know, fucked up. It's turned back around. I remember him saying, do you remember like, was it last year or maybe the year before, you know, AI is going to replace all jobs. AI can replace all jobs. We don't need humans. It's fucked up because at the end of the day, when something goes wrong,

Joel Cheesman (19:54.585)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (20:11.918)

with a service, you don't want to speak to a machine. You don't want to speak to a chat bot. You want someone who's actually going to understand your issues and help you be a bit more empathetic and be able to resolve those issues for you really quickly. Machines can't do that yet, but he seemed to think that he knew better than anyone else. So for me, think, yeah, OK, cool. You know now, but what at the expense of other people that you've got rid of? What about them? They're now in that shitty job market. So yeah, I think it's a

Joel Cheesman (20:27.225)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (20:38.691)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (20:40.492)

I think it's a bit of an idea, to be honest.

Joel Cheesman (20:45.699)

So the pendulum swings back and forth and it's swinging back into sort of the benefit of the humans. You know, these are stories you're probably heard of even in the UK, Walmart, Target, Dollar General. They've all recently either cut back their sort of self-service or self-checkout, either eliminated or cut back on it. Now part of it is people steal shit when you can just serve yourself.

Emi B (20:53.005)

Yeah.

Emi B (21:11.438)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (21:13.013)

but, it's also complicated things. And I'm even in my own use. like, I like to think I'm a fairly smart guy, but it's like, it doesn't scan. I don't know what fruit I'm getting. Is it organic or not? I got to call the person over to get information. The car doesn't work. I try to tap like there's so you end up spending more time. Like at the checkout when you're on your own and getting someone else. So it's like this big mess and, and Amazon, as you may know,

Emi B (21:27.31)

Should have weighed it, yeah.

Emi B (21:36.834)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (21:41.281)

recently launched this sort of cashless, just walk out store. And it was huge news. SNL made a really funny skit on it with with black people saying like, they won't just walk out. Anyway, it's funny skit. But like, shocker, people just steal shit. They break shit. This is why we can't have nice stuff, Emmy, as because employees aren't there. But yes, companies are realizing like, yeah, we can't just full on

Emi B (21:47.286)

Yeah, what is that about?

Emi B (21:59.51)

Yes, of course!

Joel Cheesman (22:09.165)

wholesale automate this shit and think that it's gonna turn out okay. And I can tell you that I have an 85 year old dad and I have a 14 year old dog, both of them need healthcare and I'm on the phone with vets and nurses and all this shit. The automated whatever decision tree that I have to go through is awful, awful. It has not yet type one if you'd like to pay your bill.

Emi B (22:18.456)

Good.

Emi B (22:31.566)

And you didn't say that press one to speak to this person press two. It's like just, just put me through to a freaking person. Yeah. And you just press zero until you get through to someone. Zero zero. Yeah. Don't want to talk to a freaking automated machine.

Joel Cheesman (22:38.601)

Number two, if you'd like a reschedule, like what the, yeah, it's like zero, zero. Talk to someone, please talk to someone. Yeah, so, and I do think that there's a opportunity for companies that are people heavy. You're never gonna walk into an in and out and get automated. Like there's certain experiences that you just expect, like Chipotle.

Emi B (23:01.614)

Nah.

Joel Cheesman (23:06.969)

If there's ever a kiosk in Chipotle, like I'm out. I mean, it would take a lot for me to get out of Chipotle, but like that there are certain brands that you expected. think with McDonald's, it's okay. Cause you want your $5 meal deal and you're okay to be at a kiosk and kind of deal with some shit. But for a lot of brands, dude, they're, they're running into a problem, uh, with sort of not, not seeing that this whole automation thing isn't quite what it's, it's a cracked up to be.

Emi B (23:07.756)

I love it. Chipotle again.

Emi B (23:31.628)

Yeah, you just, you just can't fully automate all of a human job. You know, you can do the low level, like kind of low level administrative side. Yeah, absolutely. No, no problem. Automate the hell out of that. But when, when it gets more complex, when it requires decision-making, when it requires creativity and problem solving, AI is not there yet. So you cannot fully rely on a machine to do that for you. And it doesn't feel.

Joel Cheesman (23:43.833)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (23:59.502)

You know, cause you know, like you said, you know, when you're on the phone and you just say, just get me through to a fucking person, you know, you want that you want, you want someone to actually empathize and understand how you're feeling and help you feel safe. I help calm you down. A robot is not going to do that. So he kind of fucked up from this point of view, thinking, or just thinking about the cost element only, which is what I think he was doing and not thinking about the human element. And that's where you're going to lose your customers.

Joel Cheesman (24:27.161)

Yeah. And there's a lesson there for recruiting how people feel about that as well. All right. Next up we got Duolingo, who recently cut contractors in favor of automation. they're facing significant social media backlash for the move with users criticizing them as harmful to employees, customers, and the environment, which I'm not quite sure I get. Emmy, your thoughts on Duolingo and the, the anger that the market is showing.

Emi B (24:30.21)

Yeah, 100%.

Emi B (24:48.781)

Mmm.

Emi B (24:53.332)

Yeah. So this is the same kind of thing as another organization kind of following down the Klan route and everything's going to get AI fast and everything's going to be automated and cutting back on human contractors to do the work. Yes, it's going to save you money. But again, when things go wrong, you need a human, you need someone on the other side to actually kind of help you out and put yourself put as well as put themselves in the.

customers, the users shoes to help resolve the issue. I don't know, Joel, did you see the kind of the TikTok kind of comments like to the post?

Joel Cheesman (25:35.374)

No.

Emi B (25:36.094)

No, because it made me laugh, right? Because some of them were saying, and I remember one of them was like, they were like properly calling out Duolingo. They were saying things like, know, was firing all your employees and replacing them with AI, a hiccup, because they were talking about some hiccup that took place. You know, they saying using AI is disgusting and language learning. Yeah, it should be pioneered by people, you know, and people are even rage quitting now.

Joel Cheesman (25:53.817)

from the How to Train Your Dragon. Yeah, heck up, yeah.

Emi B (26:01.464)

So they've got to this stage where they're so pissed off with Duolingo, they're like going, fuck it, no, I don't want it. Let me just log off. Let me not just put my money into this organization. And now they're now going, my God, okay, we're kind of fucked up a little bit. Okay, maybe we are in the wrong. And they say, no, no, no, no, chill, relax. Humans are still in charge. We're still involved, kind of. But I think that again, it's the same kind of thing. AI.

Joel Cheesman (26:01.592)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (26:29.312)

is there to help you. AI is helping to make you more productive. AI is not there to totally replace the human. So at the end of the day, they're going to have to think of a way to say sorry properly. Maybe they say sorry in 30 different languages. Maybe that's what they do. Use that tool.

Joel Cheesman (26:32.814)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (26:49.059)

You know, I meant to take a look at the videos, but I got caught up in a tarantula versus centipede battle, which I typically get into when I'm on TikTok. know, generally young people, we're talking back, look, young people aren't stupid. Young people read, you know, read or least read or see news about your college degree is worthless.

Emi B (26:51.768)

Yeah.

Emi B (26:56.042)

and love it.

Joel Cheesman (27:17.695)

Every entry level job is getting automated. Companies aren't hiring young people anymore. and they're kind of pissed off and they're like, fuck this shit. we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna smack companies that go full automation because I think they see their own challenges in companies doing that because every company that says we're going fully automated, automatic.

Emi B (27:41.422)

Don't let know.

Joel Cheesman (27:41.995)

automation, that's my, that might be my job or that might be a competition for an opportunity that I might get, or I'm not going to get now because of that. So I, I certainly feel like there's going to be a human uprising with younger people in saying like, we're going to support brands that hire people. We're going to, we're going to give our money to companies that hire people and have customer service reps.

Emi B (27:45.089)

Yeah.

Emi B (27:58.222)

100 % Yeah

Joel Cheesman (28:08.62)

who are human being that are carbon based life forms, like we are going to support those businesses. And let's be honest, the best way to, provoke change is with your dollars. And if young people decide we're not going to support companies that go fully automated, then you won't see companies go fully automated automation, right? so I think Duolingo is an example of that. Now the challenge that Duolingo has is that their stock is, is at all time highs. So they're looking at, Hey,

Emi B (28:31.095)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (28:38.797)

we're being rewarded on wall street, but on main street we're being smacked. So I think companies will ultimately say like, yes, automation is going to happen, but we need to boil the frog a little, a little longer than just wholesale. We're going off fully automated and, and you know, one day we'll wake up and say like, shit, yeah, it is, it is fully automated and we didn't even sort of recognize it. And I think that's kind of where we're going.

Emi B (28:43.171)

Yeah.

Emi B (28:54.924)

You can't just do blanket exactly. Yeah.

Emi B (29:04.3)

Yeah, 100%. But you know the challenge there as well, because I know that obviously the younger generation obviously at the moment they're saying, look, we're going to go for the human first organization. We're going to go for the people who are more empathetic. But like I said before, the market is shit. So when they're out of work for three, four, five, six months, are they still going to be hold that moral high ground or are they going to think I got bills to pay?

And that's, think that's going to be a kind of a moral dilemma that the younger generation, even like older generations as well, are going to have to think about because they're going to have to balance that situation, the economic situation with, with their morality. And I think that's a tough one.

Joel Cheesman (29:45.497)

Yeah. Yeah. Certainly you can, you, your price McDonald's is not in and out or Chipotle, right? Like, yeah, I want to support the company hiring people, but the shit's a little tight. So I'm going to, I'm going to go out of Matt. Yeah. I mean, and history teaches us that the machines will win. I think it's just a balance of companies, not just swinging for the headlines and saying like fully audit, like no more people are going to be working here. Uh, that kind of gets you into trouble. think.

Emi B (29:51.311)

Yeah.

Emi B (29:57.612)

Yeah, I got bills to pay. Yeah.

Emi B (30:07.104)

Yeah.

Emi B (30:14.382)

100%.

Joel Cheesman (30:15.075)

That's kind of a bad idea.

All right, a little bonus time in the man versus machine news. IBM CEO says replacing HR staff with AI actually led to more essential, I'm using air quotes, hiring for positions like sales marketing and customer service. Ouch, it looks like we can eliminate HR in light of hiring more essential people. What are your thoughts on that, Emmy?

Emi B (30:41.838)

Great. Well, I'm pissed off because he's basically telling me, so this is the CEO, Arvind Krishna, telling me that my role in HR is not essential. What am I? I'm just fluff, you know? And that just means this is someone who doesn't really understand HR, doesn't understand the nuances of HR, doesn't understand the strategic value that HR brings, doesn't understand how HR helps to advance an organization, that the fact that he thinks that he's just bringing a machine.

And don't get me wrong, you can automate many parts of a HR professional's role, but you can't, like I said before, you can't automate it totally. But he's saying that, yeah, just, you know, automate it, get rid of all HR and that extra money that's left over. We're going to bring in the strategic software engineers because they're going to drive our organization forward. I think he's short-sighted and I think he doesn't understand his organization.

Joel Cheesman (31:33.155)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (31:37.612)

And I think anyone who works for this Arvind Krishna at IBM, they should think carefully about who the leader that they're working for. And if they get the opportunity, go work for a more human organization, go work for a more empathetic organization, go work for an organization that actually understands the value that HR can bring to organization.

Joel Cheesman (31:59.321)

Mm.

Emi B (32:01.422)

It does hurt.

Joel Cheesman (32:04.121)

So, so, so I'll give some props to Chad, uh, who posted this on LinkedIn and made a comment about how I look at as long as HR is viewed as a cost center, this shit's going to happen. Um, and I think it's imperative that HR start getting the proverbial seat at the table and start looking like part of the vision of the company and part of the, the, you know, the profits.

to come into the business because you have, when times are tough, you have every CEO going on stage and saying like, people are our greatest resource. and then when times are, you know, like, and then times like this, it's like automate everything. Fuck them. Yeah. Like, so, so, and, and so until, you know, HR it's really imperative that HR start. And we hear so much about like, well, if, if,

Emi B (32:37.3)

Mm-hmm. We love our people.

Yeah, yeah. People what? No, out.

Joel Cheesman (32:55.521)

AI is going to take the role of scheduling and sourcing and all these things that you stick all up all this time. Like you should have more time to think about the big picture of, of, the business and where you fit in and how pro like how the profits come in. And I think a lot of the tools that are being created, give you, give you a dashboard of data to help you tell that story. we interviews in Vegas and unleashed, you know, kind of underscored that.

Emi B (33:03.542)

Yeah.

Emi B (33:21.111)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (33:22.297)

I also think that some of the stuff that Kevin Wheeler's talking about, I don't know if you know Kevin, he's got a substack. He's been around a long time. But he talks about, he's pretty medieval about shit's over. Like the recruiting jobs, know, a lot of the HR, like a lot of these jobs are gone and there's nothing you can do about it. But in light of that, just like, you know, the meteor that hit the earth and killed the dinosaurs, something else came in place of that. And he talks about jobs like

Emi B (33:29.25)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (33:52.025)

chief empathy officer and cultural curator, among others is new jobs that will be created out of out of sort of this replacement of HR. Look, a great English scientist, right, Charles Darwin, adapt or die, and people in HR have to adapt to this new reality. I don't think they can just say, hey, you're dumb. think they have to evolve, adapt, take on new positions, take on new roles just to survive if they're going to.

Emi B (33:58.53)

Yeah.

Emi B (34:20.652)

Yeah, and I, yeah, I'm with you to some extent. And this, and this guy that you mentioned as well. mean, do I think that AI is going to replace the jobs? I mean, there's so much press out there saying, yeah, AI is going to take your jobs. AI is going to take your jobs as HR professional. AI is going to take your job as a recruiter. I don't believe that. I do agree that your roles are going to adapt. Yeah. You don't need to be as an AI professional spending all your time or so an AI professional or recruiter for spending all your time scheduling interviews. This is admin.

Important, as admin. Yeah. Where can you add value by advising hiring managers and interviewers on best practice on how to hire them fairer, how to hire more inclusively, how to hire so how to improve your process so it's more effective, how to find people who are going to drive your organization forward. And I think for so long, HR professionals have been saying, I need to have a seat at the table. I need people to listen. And but I've

I've been hearing this ever since I joined, like entered the recruitment agency. And I think I've been in it for about 18 years now. You know, the story has a change. So I don't know whether or not is we as HR professionals, that we're not positioning ourselves properly or other organizations just still see us as a fluffy function, you know, that we don't add much value. I'm like, I think it's somewhere in the middle, but I think that this kind of person like Arvind Krishna, the IBM CEO,

Joel Cheesman (35:20.685)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (35:37.133)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (35:47.372)

I think he is a dinosaur. I think he's not a great person to follow. I don't think he's really truly believes in his organization. He's just seeing HR as a lower, lowly kind of function. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, I want people who can go out and make money. I want people who can develop the actual products.

Joel Cheesman (36:00.097)

A necessary evil, a necessary evil, you will. Like I want salespeople, I want these, but this is a necessary evil.

Emi B (36:11.49)

But I don't realize that the recruiters, for example, are the people finding the people who are going to do that, who are going to sell your products and build your products. They're the people who retaining the people within the organization. They're helping you to design the structure. Yeah, it pisses me off.

Joel Cheesman (36:24.717)

Yep. I think, think similarly to, to Klarna, like 700 customer service people gone and realizing, shit, we needed those people. Like the same thing may happen in our space as well.

Emi B (36:31.754)

fuck yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (36:40.313)

All right, let's get to earning season. Two of our favorite companies, Recruit Holdings, parent company to Indeed Glassdoor and also Zip Recruiter reported Recruit Holdings reported a 2.1 % increase in Q4 revenue to around 5.7 billion US dollars driven by growth in the HR technology sector, which includes Indeed. It saw an 11.5 % year over year uptick.

meanwhile, zip recruiter reported a 10 % decline in first year, first quarter revenue to $110.1 million. And the company forecasts a similar decline for Q2. your thoughts on all of this earnings goodness.

Emi B (37:24.842)

I what I would say, I'm surprised that recruit holdings, like you said, who own Indeed and Classdoor are kind of holding ground, but ZipRecruiter, I kind of feel a little bit sorry for them now, you know, because I do, because I just think everything's just going wrong. It's like they can't do anything right. I mean, they've got a shitty product. And I'm like, every new angle, every new feature, every new product they come out with, it doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. And I'm just thinking,

Joel Cheesman (37:49.337)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (37:54.414)

I heard that they're saying they're quietly optimistic. I don't know why they're optimistic because the numbers are saying otherwise. But I'm almost thinking, give up, it's okay. Yes, you had a good run, it's okay, don't worry.

Joel Cheesman (38:01.369)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (38:05.017)

You're tired of beating the dead horse is what you're saying. You're tired. It's just, it's just.

Joel Cheesman (38:13.677)

All right. So year to date recruit stock is down 20%. Zip is down 28%. So I think the indeed recruit holdings was a little bit of financial engineering. Well, you had the Japanese yen versus the fluctuations in exchange rate with the US dollar. Apparently when you adjusted for that, the revenue increased only 1.3%.

Emi B (38:26.542)

really?

Joel Cheesman (38:41.837)

So almost half was sort of financial engineering, I think. and then you have, I think, I think, I mean, I think they're, they're probably getting a little more out of each job. but their forecast, was negative. so I think indeed is trying to make a little bit of, a chicken salad out of chicken shit. so I'm not, I'm not a wall street expert, but it just sounds a little bit dicey.

Emi B (38:46.382)

The little cheeky fucker's doing that.

Joel Cheesman (39:10.593)

Zipper Cruder, I'm with you, man. Like, fuck every week. It's like, they suck. So you know what? I'm not just listen to some past episodes if you want to hear my shit on it, but they're I think they're done, dude. They need to be bought, go private like somebody. It's like, don't there's an old adage in Wall Street. Don't don't catch a falling knife. And I think Zipper Cruders like don't acquire a falling knife. Like just let it go. See how far down it can go and make

Emi B (39:12.366)

Everything!

Emi B (39:19.434)

I mean, I think so.

Dischat shop. Yeah.

Emi B (39:36.078)

Let it go. Yeah. What's that song? Let it go. Let it go. Yeah. Absolutely. Bye Zip. 100%. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (39:39.831)

Let it, yeah, Disney, there you go. Yeah, that's good. Just let it fall and eventually it'll hit bottom and then we'll buy that shit for nothing, which I think is what happening to LinkedIn. All right, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk a little LinkedIn.

Emi B (39:56.238)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (39:59.801)

All right, Amy, LinkedIn's new AI job search promises to let users describe jobs in plain language, matching them to relevant roles without exact keywords. Large language models interpret intent, aiming to uncover unique opportunities. Ooh, magic tricks. LinkedIn says features like job match, assess fit, and hiring status insights save time. And in case you missed it, you and I talked about LinkedIn's recruiter AI tools last year launched.

Emi B (40:26.029)

Yeah?

Joel Cheesman (40:26.521)

promise to find candidates faster and launch ads more efficiently. It's peanut butter and chocolate, right, Emmy? What are your thoughts on what LinkedIn is dropping? Are you picking it up or not?

Emi B (40:32.91)

Hahaha

Emi B (40:38.04)

Do know what I am? Because I'm a little bit of a fan of LinkedIn. So I don't mind when they kind of throw out new products and their new AI features. Some stick, some doesn't. But I actually quite like the stuff that they're doing for candidates, you know? And it's kind of like this kind of, you know, chat GPT style where you can sit there and go, okay, what is my perfect job? So, mean, Joel, I mean, I love my job. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I love my job that I'm doing at the moment. However.

Joel Cheesman (40:46.169)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (40:59.148)

huh.

Emi B (41:02.838)

My ideal job, if I had to work, it'd be like two hours a day. I'm going to sit at home in my sweatpants and then I'm going to like, yeah, have a holiday and maybe review some reality TV. Cause I'm a massive reality TV fan, you know? So give me some like kind of married at first sight, love is blind, you know, love Island. That'd be my ideal job. So what LinkedIn is saying now is that you can just use that chat GPT style kind of prompt, put in your ideal job.

Joel Cheesman (41:09.421)

be on holiday.

Joel Cheesman (41:15.065)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (41:32.97)

into the LinkedIn search and it will pull up those kind of job searches for you, those job search results for you, making it that whole process of job hunting just that little bit easier. So I think they're doing great stuff in terms of putting themselves in a job hunter's shoes and empathising with them a little bit more because it is tough out there. So why not make it easier?

Joel Cheesman (41:57.101)

You know what? You know what I did not have not heard at the two conferences that I've been to this year? LinkedIn's new recruiting tools are amazing. They are game changers in our business like no. Well, I'm talking about. I'm talking about the recruiter stuff. The recruiter stuff, not the job seeker stuff. So the recruiter real quickly on the recruiter. LinkedIn makes so much money from recruitment they they can't just.

Emi B (42:00.334)

Yeah.

Emi B (42:05.646)

I didn't say amazing or game changing. I said I'm a bit of a fag.

Emi B (42:14.536)

Okay. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (42:24.771)

hatchet the shit up and like change direction. They like they need to boil that frog really slowly. So if you're expecting incredible innovation out of LinkedIn for recruitment, don't hold your breath because they make so much money from recruitment, they're not going to upset that apple cart anytime soon. Now to the job, the job seeker side. It's time for history lesson.

Emi B (42:48.206)

Joel Cheesman (42:50.937)

All right, 20 years ago, I sat down with some executives at CareerBuilder and they said to me, do you know what the number one search is on CareerBuilder? Do you wanna guess? All jobs. All jobs was the number one search. Why? Because everyone wanted to go through every job. They did not trust that CareerBuilder would give them the right jobs for their searches. Maybe they didn't trust that the employments would put the jobs in correctly.

Emi B (43:02.293)

No.

Joel Cheesman (43:19.961)

They just weren't willing to roll the dice. They wanted to see all the jobs, at least maybe near them, right? So, are you, do I think that job seekers are willing to just roll the dice with LinkedIn saying, our AI is so good, it will on a silver platter give you only the jobs that you want? Maybe, but I think there's a greater chance that job seekers are like, okay.

Emi B (43:25.516)

Okay.

Emi B (43:42.712)

Think it's gross.

Joel Cheesman (43:46.829)

I'm going to trust but I'm going to verify. okay, all your LLM stuff, that sounds really cute, but I'm still going to look through all the jobs anyway, because you might have missed some of those. think that most of what LinkedIn is doing is they know that active job seekers are going to go, they know that active job seekers are going to like, take a baseball bat to search, look at every job possible, apply to every job possible.

Emi B (43:49.142)

Yeah, of course, yeah.

Emi B (43:55.832)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (44:13.721)

they want to do is attract more of the passive job seekers. Because I can tell you that getting recommended jobs from LinkedIn has sucked. They literally think I'm the host of a, they literally think I'm a host of an Applebee's because I'm a co-host of a podcast. Like they cannot connect host and host for what I do.

Emi B (44:26.99)

I

Emi B (44:38.245)

Lord, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (44:39.339)

So if AI can say like, okay, we know you're not going to come here and look for a job, but if we can sort of like tease you with a pretty good job, that's really a great fit, or like exactly what you're looking for, we might get you to come to LinkedIn and apply to that job. So I don't think this is about the active job seeker. I think this is about getting that passive enough, enough of a little, a little tease, a little bit of something there that they might want to get that they'll, that they'll apply, apply to the jobs. And I think for recruiters,

recruiters are kind of sick of shitty candidates applying to jobs. And, and the fact that you have lazy apply and all these automated tools that are like apply to every job under the sun and we'll customize your, your, your resume and cover letter to be the perfect candidate. I think, I think employers are over that shit. So if, if LinkedIn can get you a better passive job secret to start applying to these jobs, that's going to make their customers happy because they have a real problem with shitty.

Emi B (45:13.046)

Yeah. Yeah.

Emi B (45:19.574)

It's fine.

Emi B (45:27.585)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (45:39.307)

resumes and fake applicants and all that other shit. So that's, I think this is where it's going. I don't think it's a panacea, but I think it's an incremental improvement to get better. It's one less reason why podcasters can't complain about, about LinkedIn, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. And speak, speaking of complaining guys, if you like the show so far, if you like us or not, we don't care. Leave a review, subscribe, go check us out on YouTube.

Emi B (45:47.182)

But it's, yeah, exactly. It's step by step, yeah.

Emi B (45:55.854)

I'll be there with them, I'm still championing them.

Joel Cheesman (46:08.598)

we want to hear from you and we want to connect with you. But when we get back, Emmy's going to tell us all about pay transparency in the UK.

Emi B (46:16.524)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (46:20.545)

Is this your first summary that you're reading? okay. All right. I'm to sit back and bask in the genius. Here we go.

Emi B (46:23.16)

Yeah.

Emi B (46:31.95)

Okay, so what I'm going to talk about is the EU pay transparency directive. So that's a bit of a mouthful. I'm trying to say it again, EU pay transparency directive. So for me, this is actually a big deal. And I think it should be a big deal for anyone who's actually recruiting in the EU, especially if you care about pay equity, fairness in hiring, or just not wasting a candidate's time in interviews. So for people who don't know, this is a law.

that actually requires EU employers to be open about how they pay people. And the whole idea about this is to try and close the, you know, close the gender pay gap that still exists, unfortunately, in 2025. And for all those people in the EU who are accrued to the EU, have business in the EU, this is coming in 2026. So Joel, do you know, I mean, I know you had this in the US, but you know, how much do know about what's actually going on in the EU and what's actually coming next year?

Joel Cheesman (47:30.937)

Is that your summary? Are you done? All right, there you go. Good job.

Joel Cheesman (47:38.435)

So I'm by no means an expert in the EU legal system and what they're doing around this. I can tell you that it was certainly a topic that we discussed fairly frequently when the Biden administration was in office. I think a lot of this is gone by the wayside under the Trump administration. I mean, to me, lot of this is market driven anyway. mean, number one, jobs that have a pay range perform better.

Emi B (47:51.372)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (48:07.065)

If you want people that can look at a pay range and go, that's a job I want because that's a major reason why people apply the jobs is they know what it pays. So you don't have a lot of randos that are like, what's the pay and shit, I was expecting more. Yeah. So like, so it's just, it's just better jobs. Number two is it's better for diversity because people that don't want to bargain negotiate that don't want to do the hard sell. Maybe the job doesn't, you know,

Emi B (48:15.83)

Exactly.

Emi B (48:19.86)

It's competitive!

Joel Cheesman (48:35.853)

benefit from it or you're not a personality type that does that. Like, you don't have to barter or bargain around what the job pays and you're going to get it you're going to get a more diverse group of people apply to the job. And frankly, the market is going to do this for you anyway. Indeed, another job search sites already put what they think is a pay range for the jobs that they have on there. So you might as well put it on there. Otherwise, the job site that you posted on is going to do it for you.

Emi B (48:41.922)

Yeah.

Emi B (48:53.752)

They're doing it.

Joel Cheesman (49:04.205)

So for those reasons, you can make all the laws you want, but the proof is in the pudding that if you put your pay range in the job, it's gonna be good for you on many, many fronts.

Emi B (49:13.582)

I 100 % agree. And look, I know that this is going to be hard work for organizations. And I'll give an example. I used to, I think I've mentioned before on the podcast, prior to coming back to the UK three and a half years ago, I lived in the Middle East. I lived in Dubai for 12 years. I recruited across the GCC region. Very rarely did we have to advertise salaries on our jobs. And then came back to an organization in the UK and I said, hey, we put all of our salaries on our jobs. I was like, what?

Why? Why would you do that? How would you negotiate with candidates? Surely if you put a salary range on your job descriptions, candidates are always going to ask for the top end of the range. know? So to be honest, I was nervous. I can put myself in the shoes of recruiters or organizations who are now facing this and now realizing, shit, I'm going to have to do this next year. But there are so many benefits for doing this. So many benefits. Like I said, if you care about

fairness, you care about inclusive hiring, if you care about reducing the gender pay gap. Like I said, I don't understand how in 2025 we still have quite a big gender pay gap. Sorry, I can't talk properly at the moment, but that is still actually the case. So let me just go through it with you, what organizations need to do. And I need to do this very quickly before it actually rolls out in 2026. So the first thing they need to do is actually that before a candidate gets to the interview stage,

Joel Cheesman (50:12.153)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (50:32.472)

Hit me.

Emi B (50:40.962)

they need to display, they need to tell the candidate salary. So the most practical way to do that is actually to put the salary range on the job description. Or if they don't want to put it on the job description, they definitely need to tell the candidate before they attend the interview. So why are they doing that? Because this is going to level the playing field. I mentioned about gender, you mentioned it as well. Females are more likely to find it harder to negotiate towards a...

you know, the top end of the scale. Males, and obviously I'm generalizing here, but that tends to be the case. know, females tend to, you know, ask for a lower range because they go, I'm not meeting all the criteria. So maybe it's a bit cocky to ask for that much. Underrepresented groups do that as well. Like people with disabilities, for example, black people are more likely to do that. This levels of playing field, kind of it's going to interview, they know what to expect. And it also means you're not going to be

Joel Cheesman (51:10.051)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (51:23.822)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (51:38.082)

a hiring manager, interviewer, recruiter, just wasting time speaking to a candidate who's never going to accept your salary. So that's number one. Then what people cannot do or organisations can't do, they can't ask people what their current salary is or what their salary expectations are either. All you can say is, this is a salary range. Does that work for you?

Joel Cheesman (51:53.497)

Hmm.

Emi B (52:03.2)

And the good thing about that, because what I've experienced in the past, and I remember having an argument with someone in comp and bens in, you know, a couple of roles back, where they said, Emmy, why aren't you asking for their salary certificate? And I'm like, I don't give a fuck what they were paid before. You know, I know this organization, this organization is notorious for underpaying people and they are.

Joel Cheesman (52:03.203)

Yeah.

Emi B (52:26.068)

Yes, I love that sound back. But a notorious for underpaying people. So what does that mean? What you're to give them a little bit of pay rise ago? Hey, well, I did good because I gave you like a 2k pay rise when really that's still way under market rate. So don't say this is what that directive is saying. You can't ask about salary. You got to be totally transparent as well. So candidates and employees can ask people, how did you come up with that salary range?

Joel Cheesman (52:26.809)

you

Joel Cheesman (52:40.025)

Yeah.

Emi B (52:51.47)

You know, what, what bonus structures I'm play and what exactly do I need to do to get to the next level in a salary band that a lot of people can actually do that now. And that's again, another great thing. Another puts power back in employees hands. So all these kinds of things, like I said, it's going to make it easier for employees. He's going to make it those checks, those pay gaps that we've seen is going to reduce it a little bit. And yes, is it a shock to the system? But it's a good shock. It means like, you know, it's going to.

Joel Cheesman (52:51.672)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (53:20.982)

It's going to benefit the employees, it's going to help retention, but it does mean that organisations need to get their ducks in a row because they now got to look at, what is my organisational structure like? What are the job descriptions like? How can I actually, am I actually paying people the right salary band for the role that they're actually doing? Am I, have I actually correctly levelled it? Do I actually understand what equal pay for equal work means?

Joel Cheesman (53:40.793)

Mm-hmm.

Emi B (53:47.298)

Because if organizations haven't done that, they're going to leave themselves open to more discrimination claims as well.

Joel Cheesman (53:52.439)

Yeah. And isn't there something about not asking about gaps in resumes? Yeah. That's something.

Emi B (53:56.684)

Yeah. yeah. So that's not part of this directive, but that's something that I know that organisations still do. They still have that bias. I was like, why have you been out of work? Now, we know that females are more likely to be out of work compared to their male counterparts. They're the primary caregivers. And because of that, because whether it's maternity or they're looking after a relative, for example, that means that when they've been at the workplace for a while,

Their skill set isn't diminishing, but yet when they come back into the workplace, the employees are more likely to go, no, sorry, you've been out for a year, two years, so we're not going to pay as much. Contributing to that pay gap, which is where this salary pay transparency is coming in to try and address that.

Joel Cheesman (54:37.305)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (54:43.511)

And speaking of contributing to the gap, let's get to this week's dad joke. Are you ready? And speaking of inappropriate, all right, have you heard the book about the transgender whale? Have you heard about the book about the transgender whale?

Emi B (54:50.185)

Okay. I love the segue there by the way.

Emi B (55:05.134)

Do you know what? Like, again, every time I come on this podcast and hear these dad jokes, I get scared because I'm just like, where the fuck is this going now? No, no job. I haven't heard of this.

Joel Cheesman (55:17.325)

You haven't heard about the book about the transgender well. It's called Maybe Dick.

Emi B (55:19.924)

No, no.

Emi B (55:24.418)

no, that is far! Okay, so that took about two seconds to get, but that is shit. That is definitely shit. That is bad. my God. Yes, we out people.

Joel Cheesman (55:24.985)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (55:30.999)

Ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (55:34.873)

We out!

Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast. The Chad. The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And, not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper Jack. Swiss. So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out!