Workday Buys Paradox. HR Tech’s Biggest AI Move Yet?

Gas, grass, or ass—nobody listens for free. The boys are back with:

• Workday gobbling up Paradox (don’t call it a chatbot, Karen)

• Employ’s latest round of CEO musical chairs (spoiler: Cox is out, Dara’s in)

• Dayforce going private with Toma Bravo (because nothing says innovation like private equity “restructuring”)

• Zuck’s AI babysitters gone wild (romantic convos with kids, medical advice straight from a fever dream, what could possibly go wrong?)

• Plus: Cracker Barrel logos, fantasy football team names that suck, and Travis Kelce proving you can literally marry more money in five minutes than you can earn in a lifetime.

1,500 episodes in, and somehow the world’s even dumber than when we started. Strap in.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:34.03)

Gas, grass or ass. No one listens for free. Hi kids. It's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel wannabe dictator cheeseman.

The Chad (00:44.357)

This is Chad, biscuits and gravy so long.

Joel Cheesman (00:47.766)

And on this episode, Paradox sells, Employee CEO bails, and Zuck should just go straight to hell. Let's do this.

The Chad (01:00.923)

Oh shit. So, yeah, 1,500 episodes. That's what's up. I mean, we're past that now and usually we don't talk about how many episodes we do, but I saw that. went into, yeah, yeah. I went into our hosting platform and I just noticed like the amount of, and I'm like, shit, we just hit 1,500. So why not? Let's go ahead and celebrate that, especially listeners wise because.

Joel Cheesman (01:01.91)

What's up, dude?

Joel Cheesman (01:13.1)

like Fight Club.

The Chad (01:27.771)

They're the ones that make this shit happen. So thanks listeners for giving us to 1500. Good luck on the next 1500.

Joel Cheesman (01:33.454)

Thanks listeners.

I feel like we should actually be apologizing to the listeners for 1500 episodes, especially, especially you've been with us all those 1500 episodes. Shock shockingly, we haven't achieved world peace or cured cancer after 1500 episodes. Pretty, pretty crazy. In fact, the world may be even crazier than when we started. Trump is still in office somehow from when we first started, but are you getting, how do you feel in Europe?

The Chad (01:40.235)

Hahaha

The Chad (01:44.614)

They're masochists. They love this shit.

The Chad (01:49.531)

Damn it.

The Chad (01:57.546)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (02:02.05)

Are you guys similarly anxious and is the news as dire as it is over here as crazy?

The Chad (02:08.475)

I don't know because I'm not there, but I but but I do know that everybody wants to know what I think because I'm an American. Right. And and it's fairly simple. I think it's fucked up. Why do you think I'm here? Right. Kind of kind of the part. But yeah, I mean, crazy shit. mean, first off, what the actual fuck is going on with Cracker Barrel? I mean, you've got the president of the United States who's weighing in.

Joel Cheesman (02:10.331)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (02:27.874)

Yeah, let's.

The Chad (02:36.569)

on a fucking logo. I mean, what's the big deal? It sounds like it's big news. I really don't know much about it. It just seemed like a what the actual fuck moment to me.

Joel Cheesman (02:36.765)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (02:42.2)

Yeah, the...

Yeah, the therapist is in. We have by far the most interventionist president with corporate affairs that we've probably ever had. Well, aside from the golden whatever vote with Nippon Steel, you've got taken 10 % of Intel. By the way, Trump tweeted out or truth out,

The Chad (02:47.808)

Hahaha!

The Chad (02:57.753)

Logos?

Joel Cheesman (03:12.078)

That Intel CEO should be fired. And then a week later he's got, you know, the government has 10 % of the company. Like you think that doesn't have any sort of connection. Uh, so, so is Trump going to start like threatening CEOs and then getting a piece of the company, uh, in return? It's just, it's. It's it's fascism. I think it's Benito Mussolini, uh, territory, but let's get back to, Cracker Barrel, which, which I know you frequent all the time, Chad, uh, the biscuits and gravy, which.

The Chad (03:21.039)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (03:35.355)

Yeah.

The Chad (03:39.323)

It's been a while. It's been a while.

Joel Cheesman (03:41.824)

In your, in your current state of slight hangover probably sounds pretty good right now, actually. Yeah. logos are a funny thing. sometimes people have emotional connections to logos. you know, if Nike got rid of the swoosh tomorrow or turned it into, I don't know, an Apple Jack, would you, would you be mad? Clearly there's an emotional connection that people have with Cracker Barrel as, as well as I eat. haven't been to Cracker Barrel in like 10 plus years.

The Chad (03:45.237)

it sounds delicious, yes.

The Chad (04:11.693)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (04:11.734)

So I feel like I'm probably not the demographic. I feel like they probably want to look younger and hipper because their audience or demographic is largely fading from this earth. So I get the business sense of it. are younger. I mean, but to turn into Panera, I don't know if that was the way to go. I probably would have found some way graphically to keep the barrel.

The Chad (04:20.367)

Yeah, makes sense.

Joel Cheesman (04:38.08)

or uncle Herschel, I think that's his name, uncle Herschel, something that would at least connect people to the, to the original one. but Trump, a bad logo is a bad logo. Yeah. I mean, the, thing is these companies pay so much money to rebrand. They didn't just rebrand the logo. All their restaurants are getting a makeover. They're all, they're all turning into Chipotle basically. so

The Chad (04:44.379)

Yeah. A bad logo is a bad logo. Who gives a fuck?

The Chad (04:56.421)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:06.862)

They made a decision, the people spoke and they back down. Um, but I don't know if it's going to change their, uh, their lot in life. It's still a shitty, it's still kind of a slowing business. It's not growing. Um, they've they're in every place they can possibly be there at every exit that they could possibly be in. Unless they turn into McDonald's. So I.

A lot of these restaurants are going to fade like the Outbacks, the Applebee's, they're all, they're all racing to the bottom.

The Chad (05:39.963)

Don't get rid of Bob Evans, come on.

Joel Cheesman (05:42.178)

Yeah, as soon as the boomers go away, I don't know if they have an audience. I don't know if they have a consumer.

The Chad (05:44.615)

that's a point. Yeah. Well, I mean, we grew up and this is the thing that gets me because living here in Portugal, there are family restaurants all over the place. They are everywhere. We don't have chains. In my little village, we have more restaurants here than we have in Columbus, Indiana. And Columbus, Indiana is probably 10 times the size of this place. But this place has more restaurants and they're all family owned.

Joel Cheesman (06:01.646)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (06:11.867)

restaurants, right? And I remember growing up and going to Mansfield Diner, right? Mansfield restaurant. And a family owned, it's a family restaurant. And we just don't have those in the US anymore. Everything's fucking free to try. Everything's fast food. Everything's overly processed. I mean, it's just, it's just so weird.

Joel Cheesman (06:12.014)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (06:21.944)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (06:26.168)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (06:32.492)

Yeah. And it's really hard when like, you imagine, automation at Cracker Barrel? Like that would really blow people's minds up. So, so they're in a position where they can't go kiosk. They can't go like robots bring in your, your iced tea. They're stuck. They're stuck with people, man. They are stuck. Yep. Uncle Herschel is on the payroll for eternity. so I, I get it, man. It's, it's not a stock I would buy.

The Chad (06:40.873)

Jesus.

The Chad (06:47.56)

Unless they look like Uncle Hershel. Unless they look like Uncle Hershel.

Ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (07:00.664)

Not like we give stock advice on this, on this show, but damn, got some big red meat speaking of fast food. Let's get to some shout outs. Shall we.

The Chad (07:02.543)

Yeah.

The Chad (07:10.521)

Yes. It certainly is. it.

Joel Cheesman (07:12.92)

Sponsored by our friends at Kiora, by the way. That's text recruiting made simple and affordable. Thanks, Kiora.

The Chad (07:18.383)

made simple and sexy. Have you seen those guys? ooh. Anyway, my shout out, don't say it, my shout out goes to AI crash and burn. You've been waiting for it, kids. You've all wanted it. You want to see this AI thing crash and burn. Well, guess what? An MIT study titled, quote, the Gen AI Divide, State of AI in Business 2025.

finds that 95 % of generative AI pilot programs fail to deliver any measurable return or investment or move beyond limited testing phases. Only about 5 % achieve what's deemed rapid revenue acceleration. So what's the problem here? Simple answer, kids. It's the fucking humans. Poor integration. So AI tools.

Often don't mesh with existing workflows. Yeah, no shit. AI should be working to enhance workflows. It shouldn't be an additional step and or layer. Right. So we've got these idiots that are trying to jam AI into the process. Build versus buy imbalance. One of the things that drove me crazy working with CTOs in I mean, every company that I've worked with, they always think that they can build things better. Right.

Joel Cheesman (08:34.83)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (08:37.581)

And many times they fucking can't, right? And that's what's happening in many cases. These companies are trying to actually build it in-house. Stop trying to build that shit in-house. Go to a vendor who has an expertise in this. then again, none of this is an AI problem. It's a human problem because we're all wanting instant gratification instead of analyzing workflows, re-engineering them with AI. So just take a beat, relax.

Joel Cheesman (08:40.44)

Sure.

Joel Cheesman (08:58.018)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (09:07.339)

Bring in some fucking experts for God's sakes and shout out to all those vendors out there who should be using this MIT report to their advantage This is not your disadvantage stupid humans get in there fix it for them. Shout out to AI vendors

Joel Cheesman (09:23.182)

humans, I'll tell you. And I've seen articles about a great shortage in people who understand AI, not just on the development side, but on the usage side. And that's a huge, huge divide from where we are today. doesn't spread. You talk about CTOs. One there, they have a little bit of a God complex. Let's be honest. I mean, for 20 years, they like, they were the magicians that like popped out websites out of their ass and people were amazed. And now.

The Chad (09:25.595)

Stupid humans.

The Chad (09:33.029)

Yeah? yeah.

The Chad (09:48.41)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:52.642)

they're getting replaced by stuff that does coding better than them. So I get, I get the whole pride thing. I can do it. Like don't fire me. I can do all this stuff. And then shocker shocker. they can't, they can't, but you know, you know who can chat. let me set this up. My, my dad used to tell me, son, you can marry more money in five minutes than you can make in a lifetime, which brings me my shout out.

The Chad (10:06.075)

It's always been a thing. Who?

Joel Cheesman (10:21.454)

Forgive me for my jaded impression of love, but Travis Kelsey gets my shout out this week. The Cleveland native has made good by proposing to Taylor Swift. Talk about money. Kelsey's no slouch. He's worth apparently around $90 million. Not bad. Not bad for a kid from Cleveland Heights, Cleveland Heights and Cincinnati grad.

The Chad (10:26.235)

There we go.

The Chad (10:44.565)

change for Taylor.

Joel Cheesman (10:49.762)

However, Taylor is worth around $1.6 billion, according, according to some, some reports. So the guy is definitely marrying up, the only celebrity couple, with worth more care to take a guess, care to take a guess. Jay Z and Beyonce. So he's now in Jay Z and Beyonce, territory. Look, it's.

The Chad (11:02.127)

Yes.

The Chad (11:08.411)

no, who? Who could it be? good fucking po- yeah, good co-

Joel Cheesman (11:18.414)

It's fair to say that, uh, Travis will be able to afford the meatloaf at Cracker Barrel whenever he wants for the rest of his life. Shout out to Travis Kelsey. By the way, he is now undraftable in fantasy. Like I am not touching him with the, with the engagement and the news and the hoopla. Like stay away if you're a fantasy draft drafter this week. Just me, just me.

The Chad (11:29.016)

and more mass caddies.

The Chad (11:46.277)

Just you. Well, maybe not marriage, but it feels like marriage when you get free stuff.

Joel Cheesman (11:54.208)

Everybody loves the free stuff, Chad. They love the free stuff.

The Chad (11:57.49)

and

The Chad (12:01.957)

So this week we're actually going to announce the fantasy football owners, right? So we've got 12 slots. You and I are take two of those. take two of those. Dave Stiefel won last year. He's coming back. So he's coming back. That's one. They always have a returning champ. And then we have nine more. Now who, who are they? are they? Let me know. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (12:19.468)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I got them. I got them. I got I got the players and I got their team name. And I got to tell you, Chad, the quality of the team names are a little bit depressing. They're they're they lack. They lack in and in. So okay, here are our players and their team names and you tell me what you think of them. Okay, we got David. His is Olivia's pool, which you had last year. It's fine. He won.

The Chad (12:45.53)

Okay.

The Chad (12:51.439)

Yeah, get it.

Joel Cheesman (12:52.032)

Use the same name. you, you went with Lavery's legends, which I think is a fantastic homage, to our friend, Matt Lavery. went with shut the front should door Cleveland, should or Sanders. Okay. But now it goes, it goes south from there. Okay. Well, William Carrington, who is the factory fix, person, whatever his name is factory fix. Yeah.

The Chad (12:55.579)

Yes. Thank you.

The Chad (13:07.108)

Okay.

The Chad (13:13.391)

He'd better represent.

Come on. Come on.

Joel Cheesman (13:17.74)

No creativity. Mike Schaefer gave us a guy whose name is factory fix. Okay. after him, got Courtney Nappo, is Malone touchdown solutions. Okay. Jada Weiler mascot maniacs, a little generic for my taste. Jason Putnam, Jason Putnam's grid iron, which I'm pretty sure is just Yahoo's default name, that he kept. that's, that's super lame. Jeremy Roberts.

The Chad (13:23.163)

Come on.

The Chad (13:44.187)

Probably, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:48.024)

Just Jeremy. Yeah, just Jeremy. The just isn't there. It's Jeremy, okay? Just Jeremy would have been better. Megan Rattigan, I thought she was gonna bring the heat. Megan brings the heat. Smooth route Megan. okay, not bad, not bad. Mackenzie Maitland, which has tons of potential. Mad Dog Maitland, whatever. Ice Run Mackenzie, I don't know.

The Chad (13:54.885)

Jeremy.

The Chad (14:00.825)

Yes. Yeah.

The Chad (14:07.675)

Yeah, okay. Yeah. yeah. yeah.

I kinda like that one. I kinda like that one. Yeah? Yeah? Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (14:17.758)

ginger Dodds are friends from shaker. You know, we travel on shaker, so it's gotta, gotta be hot. So, drop dead ginger. Not bad. All right. Not bad.

The Chad (14:25.243)

I like it. like it. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (14:28.918)

Now, the highest hopes I had was for one, Stephen McGrath.

Joel Cheesman (14:44.172)

I'm very hopeful that he can exercise the ghosts of Adam Gordon and his just anemic fantasy football play. So Steven McGrath out of the gate disappoints on the name. His, his name is Stevens play action.

All right. Let me help you get help. Let me help you guys out. Okay. There's this thing called AI just so I put in, I put an AI said, me some good fantasy football names for a guy from Scotland. It came up with, okay. So it came up with Haggis, Hudders, not bad. It came up with, we came with Glasgow grid iron gladiators. Not bad. And my favorite was the tartan touchdowns. I liked that tartan touchdowns.

The Chad (15:04.9)

Huh.

The Chad (15:13.087)

huh. Yes.

The Chad (15:18.747)

like that, like that.

The Chad (15:28.859)

nothing like a tartan touchdown.

Joel Cheesman (15:31.599)

It's it's a little meta. It's a little cool. The flows nicely. So guys, if you're listening and you're playing fantasy, congratulations, go work on your name. Switch it up draft day. want good names in there. If you need AI help have it, but, uh, I'm excited for fantasy draft is the second, I believe I'll send out notes, but, uh, we should have draft grades for our next podcast. And then we're off to the races. Then we're off to the races.

The Chad (15:57.093)

Can't wait, can't wait. Yeah, so thanks again, Factory Fix for sponsoring this year. Can't wait to kick some Factory Fix ass, to be quite frank. And while we do that, we're still giving away free stuff. We're giving away whiskey, two bottles of whiskey from those talent tech experts over at Van Hack. They're up north as well. Bourbon barrel aged syrup from our friends over at Kiaora, those sexy kids.

Joel Cheesman (16:11.0)

Yeah, we are.

The Chad (16:26.503)

sexy kids see Bradley shirtless I can only anyway, t shirts. yeah. I want to see I want to see that on LinkedIn t shirts from our friends over at Aaron app, you know, you know, you want to they feel good wrapped in a hug from Chad and cheese. craft beer from the data geeks over at Aspen Tech Labs, you want data you want? I don't know you might want some jobs you might want some scraping.

Joel Cheesman (16:30.594)

He's in the birthday list, so don't tempt him with a good time. All right, keep going, keep going.

The Chad (16:55.823)

You go to Aspen Tech Labs. And if it's your birthday, yeah, no shit, dude. Yeah. Go get some fucking Aspen Tech Labs for God's sakes. And get some rum with plum if it's your birthday, Go to ChadCheese.com slash free and register.

Joel Cheesman (16:57.614)

Well, the government's not helping you with real data anymore, so call Aspen Tech if you want some real shit.

The Chad (17:15.629)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (17:19.122)

All right. Another trip around the sun for Sean Kelleher Tracy Cole, Bradley Clark, who you just mentioned. we expect that topless pick any day now. Andrea Wade, Genevieve Davis, Katie Erdman, Birch Faber, Elisa Abner, Tashwer, Laurie Trompeter, Funky Cold, Medina Medeiros and Trisha Lannan. Did I say that right? It's don't call her Lenane cause they'll be held to pay. It's Trisha.

The Chad (17:30.373)

There we go.

The Chad (17:34.011)

Search.

The Chad (17:45.915)

Don't call her what name.

Joel Cheesman (17:50.638)

Lannan. Happy birthday, everybody. If you didn't get picked for fantasy, a lot of people signed up. The first year we had to beg people. This year was like a flood of folks that wanted to play. So I think around 60 or 70 folks signed up. So if you didn't get picked, come back next year and you'll get another chance to play. Otherwise, you go.

The Chad (18:05.179)

fucking awesome.

The Chad (18:10.255)

Take a beat, take a beat. Then we have events, events. We've got a chicken cock in Louisville. Looks like October 13th, who we're doing that with Havas people. We'll have more about this. This is still well over a month away. Wreckfest in Nashville, October 15th and 16th. And we've got a party at Redneck Riviera the night of the 15th brought to you by.

Joel Cheesman (18:20.046)

13.

Joel Cheesman (18:34.892)

Woohoo!

The Chad (18:37.515)

Yeah, brought to by Havas people and those crazy video kids over at JobPixel. Omar is like, hey, make sure you get JobPixel's name in there more. I'm like, Omar, we say JobPixel enough, okay? So there's some JobPixel. Anyway, that's where we're going to be in October, kids.

Joel Cheesman (18:54.094)

you

Joel Cheesman (18:58.19)

And that's events again, sponsored by our friends at Shaker recruitment marking. dude, we have some red meat for the listeners today. Let's get to our topic, shall we?

The Chad (19:02.423)

shaker.

Joel Cheesman (19:16.778)

All right. What, what story could we possibly start off with this week? If you're watching on a YouTube, know, work day is acquiring Chad and she sponsor and BFFs paradox. Don't call them a chat bot. It's a conversational AI to simplify the job application process, particularly for high volume hiring. In case you missed it, this acquisition.

The Chad (19:17.53)

Woo!

The Chad (19:37.339)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (19:42.241)

Along with the recent acquisition of flow wise will enhance workdays, talent acquisition suite and aims to help companies attract, engage and retain talented transaction is expected to close by October 31st. That's Halloween kids, by the way of this year. Terms were not disclosed, Chad. I suspect you have a thought or two on what went down, what you got.

The Chad (19:59.163)

Trick or treat.

The Chad (20:05.477)

Big congrats to the team over Paradox and Workday. I mean, this is a baller move from Workday as they're facing class action mobility case. They double down on AI with Paradox. Ballsy, yes, but also smart because every conversation we've ever had with the Paradox team always ends with their focus on technology, facilitating tasks, not hiring decisions, right? Their focus.

This also sends a message to the market. Workday is pretty much saying, hey, AI is here and there's no putting the toothpaste back in the fucking tube. So guess what? We're all in. After Smart Recruiter's acquisition announcement, we talked about two of their pivotal moments, right? Their dominoes moments and their Apple moment. And I believe those stories and how they delivered those stories were big reasons why they were required.

Story is incredibly important and I would say that only paradox has a better story is a better better storyteller in our space. You go to their website or better yet go to YouTube. What do you see their clients telling their personal stories that include go figure paradox. If you go to rec fest one presentation that always is standing room only. Yep it's a paradox presentation. Why.

Joel Cheesman (21:27.416)

Fill the house.

The Chad (21:31.163)

because their clients tell the story, not Aaron, not Adam, not Jay-Z, their clients, right? So if you're a founder and or CEO, you have to understand that you're not the main character. You're a supporting character, right? Vision this, strategy that, blah, blah, fucking blah, right? TA and HR people don't wanna hear from you. They wanna hear from their peers that are using your platform.

That's where you get in there. And that's where paradox has knocked this out of the fucking park. Paradox gets it, which is why their clients are the story. Yes, the tech matters. No question. But the story and more importantly, who tells the story matters even more. as we see, like smart recruiters do what they did with their storytelling. And really, mean, Rebecca came in February. They made an announcement that they're

Trash and everything and they're going, you no more roadmap. They're going in a different direction. Six months later, acquisition, right? And then you take a look at Paradox. They've just been doing business right for a very long time. And I definitely attribute it to having great tech people, great engineers, but you can have all of those things. If you don't tell the story and you don't have the right people telling the story, guess what? Doesn't fucking matter.

Doesn't fucking matter.

Joel Cheesman (23:03.342)

I love that you went went to stories. All the management at Paradox, I believe, is a Gen X. Jay-Z is a little young, by and large, a lot of Xers. And just like you and I, Chad, they grew up listening to a little Kenny Rogers, who taught us know when to hold them and know when to fold them. And I think there's a really interesting history lesson in here that's worth telling.

The Chad (23:13.586)

yeah.

The Chad (23:22.299)

You

The Chad (23:27.067)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (23:31.181)

Joel Cheesman (23:31.897)

Cause I can't believe this is 20 years old now, but a lot of people don't remember jobbing. Jobbing in 05, 06, 07 was a high flyer in our industry. They were arguably a top five job board for sure. And this was in the days when hot jobs was still around. they, they blew it up at shurm. They raised a bunch of money at the time they were on, they were on track. had their name on a sports arena.

The Chad (23:34.991)

Yeah.

The Chad (23:57.445)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (23:57.741)

They were on their, they're on their way to, crushing it and being a major player in the business. Their model was. Boots on the ground, local markets, people that you knew taking to the games, taking it to lunch, et cetera. They were sort of like the newspaper. They had someone in all these markets and that was, that was their model. They were hit with a double whammy. Great recession plus indeed. And it, it.

It was a gut punch that they never really came back from. had to shut down offices. They had to sort of go indeed on it, put some backfill, so like go, go more indeed. And they couldn't out deed indeed, right? The cover band is never as good as the actual band. And through that period, Aaron founder, I think learned a ton, right? And, and success is only getting up one more time than you fall and.

The Chad (24:49.613)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (24:54.796)

The dude is a picture of grit, determination, could have sold it, could have packed it up. He didn't. And I remember in 16, I think I was at a Shurm event, which when they launched Paradox, I think it was just Olivia. I don't know if they had Paradox at the time. They had bought recruiting.com from the Jobster folks, which they also bought that portion. So there's a long history there that Aaron learned from.

The Chad (25:11.744)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (25:23.81)

But I think that he learned a lesson and I think they all did because they remembered in that you have to know when it's a good time, when is the timing right to sort of like say goodbye. And I really think that they see the agentic future. They see a geopolitical and employment arena that is just kind of weird. So you have a decision of like,

The Chad (25:37.307)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (25:52.761)

We're 10 years into this, our investors took a risk. By the way, a lot of their investors were jobbing investors that took another swing on this. So it's like 10 years into this, know we can sell for a good amount of money, or we can try to go through the storm and see where we come out on the other side. I think they picked the right time to sell. think that when we look back on this, we're going to go, man, they timed that really, really well.

The Chad (26:12.059)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (26:20.142)

And, I think smart recruiters timed it really, really well also. And I'm guessing there are a lot of other people of their ilk who are trying to time it really, really well, because the companies that can buy these businesses are dwindling the IPO windows. Eh, I don't know. Raising more money. I don't know. Private equity is your next stop. And we all know what happens when private equity comes to town. So I think this is a great.

The Chad (26:36.259)

Yep.

Joel Cheesman (26:49.454)

It's history lesson, a great story around timing, building a great business, fantastic people, great tech. They told a good story as you talked about. They built bridges with the community, which a lot of these startups don't do. Let's be honest. A lot of them could give a shit about who you and I are or who LOROC is or anybody. So they covered all the bases. I think a lot of that was learning from jobbing, but I agree like super happy for all of them.

The Chad (27:03.323)

Yes.

The Chad (27:09.851)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (27:18.894)

Now there's another side of the coin and that's Workday. You love the move? Say more.

The Chad (27:24.463)

Yeah. yeah, no, I do. I do love the move. mean, because they had everybody knows that their recruiting module is really just gift with purchase is really what it is. It's something that's there that a CIO buys the platform. Right. And like, well, we get this. We get this recruiting module for free. But that's always been a piece of shit.

this is going to upgrade them dramatically. And I think they have like around 11,000 customers. So now the customers are actually going to have a platform that works, right? Works. It's not something that recruiters hate going into and using. It's gonna be something that again, if you're doing AI right, which I talked about in my shout out, it's going to enhance.

It's your effectiveness, right? And it's going to do the little things that you need it to do as opposed to you having to do all that admin bullshit. So, yeah, I think I think this is incredibly smart from from Workday. They are having some issues now in the courts with Mowgli. Those are those are AI decision making issues. I don't think paradox is going to be a problem here. I don't think that's going to be a problem at all. Yeah. So what do you think?

Joel Cheesman (28:49.038)

I love that we're seeing so many big swings in the industry, whether it's Indeed, whether it's SAP and Smart Recruiters. To Workday's credit, big swing time. That's either going to pay off big or we're going to look back and go, oh shit, they made the wrong moves. Their stock is still down 8 % year to date. It's been in the doldrums for a while. The legal stuff doesn't help. From roughly 2021 to 2024,

Workday made zero acquisitions. was status quo, keep it as it is. And while they were doing that, the whole world was changing and new flowers were blossoming all over the landscape. 2024, someone said, let's step on the gas. They bought Hired Score, Evasort, Flowwise, and now Paradox. These are all AI plays.

The Chad (29:25.573)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (29:48.747)

SAP was not an ATS buy, it was an AI buy. Everything that I just mentioned for Workday is an AI buy. So everyone is putting all their cards in this game on AI. I think it's a right move. We'll see. I also think it's interesting that Workday is starting to go downstream. They launched Workday Go a couple of weeks ago or maybe a month ago.

The Chad (29:52.047)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (30:13.646)

targeting SMBs, whoever thought Workday would have a product targeting SMBs? Well, Paradox lets them do that. Paradox, think is a fantastic, fantastic tech for small businesses and they haven't unleashed that yet because they're a startup. If Workday can turn the key and scale that thing up with small businesses, I think that is a huge opportunity. By the way, you listening, ZipRecruiter, because Workday and Paradox are coming for you. I'd be really worried about that.

The Chad (30:15.289)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

No. Yes.

The Chad (30:38.523)

Ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (30:41.486)

I love the big swing. I hope it works. Has Hired Score worked? I hear some people say yes. I hear some people maybe no. What happens to the brands and all this? Hired Score now goes to Workday. So your paradox.ai URL, that's likely going to go to Workday. When you take cultures, technology, businesses and

put them into one brand, like there are challenges. We'll see if they can, they can handle it. I don't know how long a lot of the paradox people will stick around. I don't know how long the hired score people stuck around. I'm guessing a lot of the execs will be around for a year, but this is a long-term play and I think they are taking the right bets. And it'll be fun to talk about the evolution and where they go, where they go from here. Now I do think, the unicorn dance.

that we've been talking about is going to get really interesting. I've already given a little bit of my two cents where the window for IPO acquisition, et cetera, is closing. If you're at eightfold, if you're at, you know, name it, what are you thinking today?

The Chad (31:52.079)

Yeah, well, mean, you've got two players off the table now, SAP and Workday. Will UKG, Oracle, ADP, and others build their own, or will they buy something? Dayforce has a new owner. Will they get into the game? What about Rippling, Deal, Upwork, and the other EOR companies? I mean, they're moving up funnel towards staffing. They're going to need recruitment tech, right? So I still think there's a ton

of opportunity that's out there. But there are so many players, iSimps, Greenhouse, you've got all the employee, know, Lever, Jazz, Jobvite, Beemery, Eightfold, Phenom, Gem, Fountain. mean, and so many. I think the ones that are really kind of screwed have just taken too much money. We've given Eightfold a lot of shit on this show for years and they've taken too much money.

Joel Cheesman (32:30.666)

Employ, we'll get to them.

Joel Cheesman (32:42.19)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (32:50.297)

You know, they I don't know who's going to be able to afford them. I think you get you get organizations like a paradox, a fountain, a jam. You get those types of organizations that do something really, really well. And then they just knock the cover off the fucking ball. An eightfold is trying to do too much. Right. We talked about them opening the TAM way too far too fast. And I think those models and that.

kind of vision and focus is really going to be, unfortunately, their demise. Focus disciplines the key, and I think that's what's going win the day.

Joel Cheesman (33:29.442)

Yeah. The big wild card to me is the IPO market. If rippling deal or somebody goes public and goes bonkers, you're going to see eightfold. You're going to see all these guys go public. if, if, if the first one out of the gate falls on its ass, it's bad for everybody else. It's bad sign for everybody else, but congratulations to work day and the paradox crew. Give us a, give us a quick break. And man, the, the train keeps humming with red meat.

The Chad (33:48.549)

Yeah.

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (33:58.383)

for the listeners.

The Chad (33:59.442)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (34:03.918)

All right, you mentioned Jazz, Jobvite, like all those under one umbrella. Anyway, we barely knew Yee after taking the reins of employee, know, Jobvite, Jazz, HR, Lever, et cetera. Steve Cox is out. He's out as CEO. He posted a resignation letter on LinkedIn saying he'd say more about where he's going at a later time, leaving the, guess,

The Chad (34:07.435)

yeah, yeah.

The Chad (34:18.299)

Steve talks. Wow.

Joel Cheesman (34:32.64)

interim or ICO role to Dara Brenner, who was chief product officer at employee before this happened. Cox replaced Pete Lamson. You might remember who served as CEO for a whopping three years prior to him. Chad, your take on this tale of musical chairs.

The Chad (34:36.187)

Mm.

The Chad (34:51.993)

Yeah, well, it's my turn. Get that history lesson ready for history lesson. yeah.

Joel Cheesman (34:55.982)

I do love I do love a good history lesson chat.

The Chad (35:03.595)

So back in February of 2019, K1 invested over 200 million in rolling up jobvite, telemetry, rollpoint, and Canvas, right? Then in April of 2021, was created during another rollup with JazzHR and NextThing RPO. Then, Lever was acquired in August of 2022. So K1 made a bet back in 2019.

buy all the toys and try to own all segments of the market with Enterprise ATS, mid-level and SMB ATS. That was a baller move. Unfortunately, rolling up that many companies, integrating all that tech, including point solutions, getting your sales and marketing teams on the same page and aligning your tech teams just for starters. That's a fucking mess, dude. That's a mess. So, I mean, you can imagine.

managing all those fucking code bases and on the Steve side of the house, yeah, year and a half. Maybe because K1 doesn't like that employee feels like the antithesis of paradox or smart recruiters who feel young and nimble and vibrant employee feels old, slow and riddled with tech debt. Maybe we saw Rebecca Carr come in, make a big and bold change.

Joel Cheesman (36:12.493)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (36:26.395)

almost overnight, right? Now, now the new CEO, or at least interim CEO, Dara Brenner, like Rebecca, she was the chief product officer, and she also has a great deal of experience in our space. The question is, will she have a dominoes and Apple moment like smart recruiters did? Will this unwieldy beast of a company become a cool new player?

Joel Cheesman (36:35.256)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (36:54.341)

Will they be able to shed that old facade and start telling a new, more cool story? There's something here. K1 has a lot of money. They wanna offload this fucking thing, okay? There's gotta be big changes. hope, Dara, I hope you're listening, I hope you get that interim ripped off and you are the full CEO and you take this the exact same, maybe not the exact same way, but the same way that Rebecca did.

Joel Cheesman (37:06.869)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (37:23.547)

And you knock this bitch out of the park

Joel Cheesman (37:31.31)

So Chen, don't share notes before the show and you stole a lot of my thunder on that. This is definitely a smart recruiters to electric Boogaloo moment for Dara. I hope she has Rebecca on speed dial. Do people still have speed dial? That's such a 20 year old thing. Anyway, you get what I'm saying.

The Chad (37:41.455)

Feels like it.

Joel Cheesman (37:54.925)

No one wants these jobs, man. Like if, when you hire someone from out of our space, it's like they come in and go, what in the hell is this shit? Like I'm used to marketing stuff or customer, like whatever it is, what something about HR tech is just toxic to people who aren't from our space. So yes, I think K1 looked at smart recruiters or at least where the trend was going and said, we need a product person.

Dara was there. Look, a lot of these people don't want these jobs. I mean, she was in the office next door probably. Yes, she's, she's got the chops for sure. I've never met her or talked to her. If you're smart, uh, you'll come on the show like Rebecca did, uh, and good, good things happen. I, you say, you say you don't know if they have to, to follow the script. I think they do. I think the script is there. Like, look, bring in an industry person.

The Chad (38:26.501)

Yeah. She was a fucking UKG dude. Who needs who need right? Yeah.

The Chad (38:40.187)

Tell your story.

Joel Cheesman (38:50.402)

Your next, your next thing is hire people that know what the hell they're doing. And by the way, smart recruiters and paradox now that they're bought might have some people looking for new opportunities. If whoever's recruiting for employee needs to be on the phone with those folks and say, Hey, let's do it again over here. And we can, and here's how we're going to do it. They need to pump up the marketing. They need to get some heat. even if it's, you know,

The Chad (38:57.925)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (39:16.054)

Not there yet. They need to tell the story. Like you said, what is our story? What is our vision? Smart recruiters followed through on that with the, with the change that they made. Employees do that too. They need to figure out the branding question that dude, it is. You go to each one of these companies and their LinkedIn profile stuff and insights. They are all a mess. Head count reduction. Like no one's hot. Like they are just.

The Chad (39:31.261)

fuck yeah.

The Chad (39:40.165)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (39:44.621)

These are awful businesses. Now to me, it looks like every logo has like job bite by employee. Jazz HR by employee. Usually when you see buy something, means eventually it's going to become employee. So I have to imagine this will just be employee and all these technologies will come, come under that. Interestingly, I looked, I wanted to see who owned employee.com. It redirects to a LinkedIn profile of some guy named Slade Mishalak.

The Chad (40:00.347)

Good man.

Joel Cheesman (40:14.926)

Anyway, don't, but look, so I did some work for you. Either go pay Slade a bucket of cash or employee.tech is available for a pretty reasonable price. Like that's a pretty easy fix. Get all this technology and brands under one and eventually go make it easier on yourself. But I think the roadmap is there. The blueprint is there. Just follow up on the same thing. These are good. These are beloved brands.

The Chad (40:22.107)

Slayed.

Joel Cheesman (40:42.638)

lever beloved for a long time. Jobvite was the original sort of cool hip, uh, you know, when Finnegan was running the show. So there's stuff there, but it has become a mess. I agree with you. K1 wants to dump this thing or get rid of it. I think they've wanted to get rid of it for a long time. Uh, this is the plan. This is your 12 to 18 month plan. Now go do it.

The Chad (41:04.792)

I would say that you don't have to go to a Paradox or a Smart Recruiters. Those people are very high on life right now, and that's great, and they're not gonna wanna leave just yet, right? There are so many good people that are out there now, right, that you can pick. You just have to be able to get, you have to be able to understand the vision and the actual strategy that these companies put together. And don't get me wrong.

Joel Cheesman (41:11.758)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (41:32.589)

Smart recruiters and paradox had had different, different visions, different types of companies, but they pulled off the same type of storytelling in big bold moves, right? They, did those things. You can do it. I mean, you can do it. I look forward to seeing that. Yeah. Well, yeah. And K1, if you're listening, just let Dara do her thing. Let Dara do her thing.

Joel Cheesman (41:49.07)

I think they have to. I think they have to at this point. If they don't, it's going to be chopped up and adios.

Joel Cheesman (42:00.153)

Okay, one. And from one evil private equity company to another, Toma Bravo, no relation to Johnny Bravo from what I know, is acquiring DayForce for $12.3 billion, including debt in a take private deal. The acquisition aims to accelerate DayForce's focus on, you guessed it, AI capabilities in human capital management.

The Chad (42:02.203)

Yeah.

Ugh.

Joel Cheesman (42:27.65)

The deal, includes a minority investment from the Abu Dhabi investment authority is expected to close early next year. Dayforce CEO David Osip said going private would enable them to accelerate their focus on being a, you guessed it, AI leader in HCM. Chad, what is your take on the move?

The Chad (42:48.699)

I mean, this is such an interesting story because Ceridian has been around for 30 plus years. And Dayforce, which was acquired by Ceridian back in 2012, is now 17 years old. So it took 12 years, just last year, to kill off the Ceridian brand and move to Dayforce. It's interesting. So Asap, who is, I think it's John Asap, he's the CEO.

Joel Cheesman (43:01.538)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (43:07.756)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (43:15.896)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (43:16.443)

He's obviously very patient because he was the CEO and seller of Dayforce originally, right? And he became the CEO of Ceridian. Anyway, Tom Abramo is in the top 10 of PE firms. And as of July, 2023, the company had completed over 440 software deals. And as of 2020, that's five years ago, oversaw a portfolio of over 70 software companies. And as of June of this year,

Joel Cheesman (43:23.16)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (43:31.0)

Yeah.

The Chad (43:46.245)

They report having 181 billion assets under management. So big question is why go private? Well, I mean, it is private equity, hence private. Plus, it feels like day force is going to have to pivot or rebuild or do some things that you really don't want to do in the public eye. Not to mention they enhance scrutiny that you get, the quarterly earnings calls, all that shit.

when you're public, right? So if you want to, and Ceridian's done this before, they were public, they took it private, they're public again, they're gonna take it private. That's the perfect time going private for a reorg, for a rebuild, and then for what? For Tom Abrava to get a big paycheck at the end of it. That's what they wanna get.

Joel Cheesman (44:40.974)

I'll go you one better on the, the 2012 Chad day force actually traces its roots to control data corporation or CDC founded back in 1957. So yeah, you talk about an old home on the block. Uh, this thing has been around for a while, uh, culturally very, very old. Uh, look, the, the stock has been an absolute shit show, uh, since COVID, um, while other players that are so, so they, they

The Chad (44:51.653)

What the fuck?

Joel Cheesman (45:10.41)

Ever since COVID they've sucked. And while they've sucked, they've gotten to see new players, new sexy companies like Dippling, Rippling and Deal, crush it. it's like, we're this old house with old infrastructure. The pain is chipping. We need a new AC. The roof is falling apart. Like, shit. We can't repair this thing in the public markets. Let's shut it down. Put the big drape thing over the house.

The Chad (45:17.691)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (45:28.069)

Demo, baby.

The Chad (45:38.427)

No!

Joel Cheesman (45:39.087)

And, and to me, this is going one of two ways either. really is going, we're getting the, the, the 18 construction group in here. We're going to like put on new, new stuff. We're going to add on. We're putting a pool in the backyard, whatever it is that they need to do to get this dog looking like it's, it's, it's ready for the, for the public markets. And then they go public and that may be spurred partly when rippling and deal and all those guys start going public. Cause there could be a little bit of a feeding frenzy. I do fear that they could go.

into the house and be like, there are too many skeletons, too much, too much mold. got termites in the walls. Like let's just sell off the windows because they're in good shape. Let's throw out, you know, these certain parts and they're going to, they're going to career board or career builder and monster this thing. And, day force will be a footnote in the history of our industry. So I think it could go either way. I don't know as much about, Bravo.

As, I do about K1 and Apollo and those guys. So I can't really tell what their history is, but I think it'd go either way. you think it'll be like a resurrection and Jesus is coming back and day forces is going to be the shit. I hope for them that that's the case, but private equity, story is we know Chad usually doesn't end very well, for the people that get acquired by the private equity folks.

The Chad (46:47.692)

Go try.

The Chad (46:58.139)

Yeah. Yeah.

Good luck guys.

Joel Cheesman (47:07.47)

All right, guys, if you haven't subscribed to our audio channel from your favorite podcasting platform of choice, or if you want to see our beautiful faces, check us out on YouTube at youtube.com slash at Chad cheese.

The Chad (47:10.477)

What?

Joel Cheesman (47:26.464)

All right, Chad, your boy, Zuck is back up to his old tricks. Meta has paused hiring and it's AI division after bringing on over 50 researchers and engineers. The company says the pause is part of organizational planning and yearly budgeting and planning exercises. Uh-huh. But wait, there's more. Zuck goodness. A Reuters review of an internal Meta policy document reveals that the company's AI chat bots.

have been permitted to engage in provocative behavior, including romantic conversations with children, generating false medical information, dough, creating content that demeans individuals based on protected characteristics. Metta refutes the report, Chad. Do you refute the report? Your thoughts.

The Chad (48:14.555)

I don't refute it. It's hit the hiring real quick. mean, Metta, they hired 50 new AI researchers that they poached from competitors for a lot of fucking money. They've split one organization into four different AI labs. Yeah, it's probably smart to just take a beat, take a breath, assess the talent that you have, build the teams and what their focus is going to be before you

Joel Cheesman (48:26.158)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (48:44.507)

We, you know, start the the poaching frenzy, which they'll probably do here and there. On the chat bot side of the house. mean, let's face it. Mark Zuckerberg could give two fucks about you, your kids or any community. Right. It's all about the Benjamins. And after Cambridge Analytica, mean, nothing this asshole does should surprise us. And with less governmental restrictions, expect more of this.

Joel Cheesman (48:47.436)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (49:12.123)

huh.

The Chad (49:13.627)

Porn is still a huge moneymaker and getting into porn like chat does nothing but increase engagement. Even if it's totally fucking repulsive, Zuck doesn't give a fuck about you or your kids. I mean, that's just what it is. And if you choose to use these platforms, again, it's your choice and that sucks. But this is what's happening.

Joel Cheesman (49:19.342)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (49:30.53)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (49:40.281)

while this administration is still around, they're not gonna put any restrictions on you. We've heard that. They've actually admonished Europe for trying to put restrictions on AI. And this is just gonna be seen as another restriction. Yeah, it's bullshit.

Joel Cheesman (49:44.398)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (49:58.703)

By the way, did you see the story about the OnlyFans founder or CEO? He's, he's got like 700 million in dividends over the last three years. And just dividends, just free cashflow. They, they, they make like $24 million per employee. They only have 46 employees. anyway, totally different topic, but, talk. it's better than Apple. It's better than Google. It's better than Nvidia. Like it's insane. anyway, so.

The Chad (50:02.212)

No.

The Chad (50:11.429)

Jesus.

The Chad (50:19.471)

That's better than Craigslist.

Jesus.

Joel Cheesman (50:27.81)

So the hiring thing, there's, there's a, there's a line in ghostbusters, where, they go, if, if, if someone asks you, if you're a God, you say, yes, I said this to accurate. If someone offers you a hundred million dollars, take it, take it that that doesn't come along every day. They were offering a hundred million dollars, allegedly, open AI claims this to.

The Chad (50:50.874)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (50:55.534)

potential AI employees to come in. That window is closed. I have to think that Zuck has been burned by the metaverse, action. You remember metaverse we're all going to live on headsets. they put a ton of money into that. They, they billions of dollars in, in R and D and their stock went to shit and everyone was mad at them. And I don't think Zuck wants to relive that. So

The Chad (51:11.611)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (51:21.75)

I do think there is a potential undercurrent of AI and you talked about it the MIT thing. Sam Altman is talking about a bubble in AI. There's more and more anecdotal evidence that AI is not going to happen immediately. It may be like the dot com thing. It may start in 97, it may not actually hit till about three, four or five. So Zuck, I think, sees some of that and says, we need to like chill out, take a breath, get stuff.

The Chad (51:42.971)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (51:51.343)

To speed, get our people up. So to me, this is little bit of a warning sign. I know it's a Facebook crazy, whatever the hell's going on there, but I do think it could be a little bit of a canary in the coal mine for what's going on with AI. Maybe these big companies are biting off more than they can chew and stuff isn't ready for what's happening. the chat bot thing, this is going to give me the second opportunity for a history lesson. So if you've seen the social network,

the movie and I know, I know you have Chad. I can't believe that's like 15 years old now. Zucks Zuck started hot or not basically for Harvard. the D he has, he doesn't have that gene. He doesn't have that, like, this might be bad. so he launches it and to his credit, he's gotten not much more than a hand slap every time that he's done this. So whether it's depressing our kids, whether it's making,

The Chad (52:20.161)

yes.

Joel Cheesman (52:47.724)

minorities feel like shit. so I, like you, I'm not surprised at all that he's done this. I think it's like really crossed the line as you dig into the story, apparently they accepted standards that would let their chat bot write, quote, paragraph arguing that black people are dumber than white people. Like to me, that's a line even Zuckerberg, is too, is too like aware to cross, but apparently not.

The Chad (52:54.139)

Mm-mm.

The Chad (53:16.496)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (53:16.622)

Apparently there's no borders, no guard rails at all. And when the dude is behind Donald Trump at the inauguration speech, it tells me like, nothing's going to happen from a federal government standpoint to, to slap this guy anyway. anyway, loose. think you and I agree until one of these fuckers gets in an orange jumpsuit, nothing's going to change and our kids are going to suffer for it. Our, our, our dialogue is going to suffer for it. Just our humanity is going to suffer for it.

The Chad (53:36.507)

Yeah. Nope.