Companies are hearing all of the efficiencies they can enjoy by using AI and language models (LLM) but have no clue where to start. Luckily, Adam Gordon, cofounder at Poetry, can answer some of those questions for TA leaders and recruiters while Chad & Cheese can attest to LLMs integrated into podcasting platforms. If you're new to LLMs, and using solutions like ChatGPT, or you're a seasoned pro, this episode is for you.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION (blame the AI for errors)
Joel Cheesman (00:29.902)
Yeah, what's up everybody? It is your favorite guilty pleasure, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Cheeseman joined as always by Chad Sowash. And today we are just excited as hell as you can hear by the clapping that Adam Gordon, co -founder at Poetry is on the show today. Talking a little LLMs. Adam, welcome back to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.
Chad Sowash (00:40.406)
Hello.
Adam Gordon (00:57.435)
Thanks for having me. And if you saw me playing golf, you would not give me any form of clap, incidentally.
Chad Sowash (01:02.424)
Only the kind that you need penicillin for. Yeah, for those who don't know, Joel gave Adam a golf clap during his candidate ID pitch on Firing Squad, and that pretty much came to bite Joel in the ass later. Although, I think it just incentivized Adam.
Joel Cheesman (01:19.573)
huh.
Which I'm still paying for five years later, by the way. I don't even know when that episode dropped, but he's still mad because...
Chad Sowash (01:31.522)
That's right. Yep. Yes. So for all those people out there who don't know who you are, they've been in curled up in a ball in the corner for the last five years for God's sakes. Adam, give us a little Twitter bio about
Adam Gordon (01:46.641)
Yeah, sure. I've been in recruiting since 1999. Got out of that after a couple of years because I didn't want to hear any candidate's life story or career objectives ever again. Geez, that was boring. Moved into recruitment marketing, moved into recruitment technology. I built a company called Social Media Search, which was a research company. Sold that to Norman Broadbent, the executive search firm in London.
built a candidate ID, which was marketing automation technology for talent acquisition. So that's iSIMS in 2022. Really loved my, I was there for nearly a year, loved my time in iSIMS and started a new company recently called Poetry.
Chad Sowash (02:29.688)
Poetry, which let's just be transparent kids. I am a funder. I'm a funder and also advisor. At the end of the day though, today, I called upon Adam because we keep hearing about these bright, shiny, cute chat bots that are out there. Open AI, you might have heard of those guys. When they came out, there was nothing but shiny, glittery, cool stuff happening. And we just, we
hear any of the practical applications for generative AI. Then Joel and I use this platform called Riverside and it just records our podcasts. We've got video and audio. Then they infused it with some generative AI. So it records, transcribes, creates synopsis, highlights video clips, audio clips. I mean, the generative AI just, it took it to another level. So my question to you, fine sir Adam Gordon, how in the hell
Are we going to do the same thing in recruitment? Because we have all these individuals, these TA leaders that are like, this is going to be the best thing in the world, but I have no clue what to fucking do next.
Adam Gordon (03:44.849)
mean, the answer to that is a very, very long one. So I'm gonna give you a, I'm gonna start with a short version of it. Any time that you need to create text for something, you could use generative AI to help you to fast track that process. We hire recruiters for their ability to...
achieve influence with individuals, individual hiring managers and candidates, and for them to be able to move people through a process. They have got the same competencies as an expert sales professional who can really guide somebody through a process. And that's what we hire salespeople, recruiters for. But what we don't tend to hire them for is their marketing. Now, they have to be really good marketers. We don't hire them.
necessarily for their ability to build Boolean strings, but they've got to have the ability to do that somehow. We don't hire them for their ability to create contracts and create policies, but we're asking them to do that. The job of a recruiter in many organizations is like, you know, really, really varied. And it's too varied for that individual to have.
deep expertise in all the different things that we're asking them to do. So what we've typically done is we've typically done training sessions for recruiters to help them to become expert sorters and expert marketers and expert this and expert something else. And I really believe that we can't, we just can't give them ongoing training and expect them to be deep experts in 20 different things. I think what we should do instead
put things right into their hands at the moment they need them within like two clicks on a solution and they've got what they need then and there. If we put things into their hands in the way that sales enablement technology has done for salespeople, then we're gonna have much more productive and successful
Chad Sowash (05:59.448)
So we're hearing right now they're trying to become a jack of all trades, which makes them a master of none. And when we take a look at, and this is one of the things that we've talked about, not just around skills hiring, but also just in jobs themselves, a job isn't just one thing. It is a series of tasks that they have to do during the day, which you were just alluding to. So talk about how do we start
generative AI where it can be used, how do we start actually implementing that into the workday? How does that work? mean, like we just said, with Riverside, it's easy for us because we already have a platform. They infused it into it and then we just, I mean, it just automatically made life easier for us. So how do we make life easier for those recruiters and obviously the TA leaders?
Adam Gordon (06:53.297)
Well, mean, we certainly like Riverside infused it into this product and it's made your lives easier without you having to make use of some other technology and then embed it into Riverside or use something separate. I mean, even Microsoft Teams has. I do all of my recordings for the Recruiter Enablement YouTube channel on Microsoft Teams and it's got a decent transcription. And then I just put that
a generative AI service and ask that to turn it into a summary. So it's really easy. I think what we need to do is think about the different tasks where generative AI can be useful and then establish should the generative AI be embedded into an existing solution such as applicant tracking system or a CRM, some of which have done a good job of that or
Does it not make any sense to have it in there and are they never going to do it? So what I've, I've personally done in the development of our product is I've looked at what are all the different areas of recruiting where generative AI can be most useful and of those, which are the ones that the ATS and the CRM, which is never going to touch or not in the, not in the near future. So actually there's a workspace opportunity there. So we've built a workspace with 28 inbuilt solutions
we've grouped them according to four different things. It might become five, but it's currently four different things. so the first one is marketing. The second one is operations. The third one is learning. And the fourth one is a bit of a generic catch -all T for tools. So marketing M, operations O, learning L, T tools. We call that MOLT, M -O -L -T. There is the 28,
solutions are within those four groups, marketing, operations, learning tools, MOLT. There may become an A in the middle of that. It'll still be pronounced MOLT, -O -A -L -T, and the A is for assessment because I'm going really deep into the area of assessment right now by popular demand, right? So there are more than just the tips. it's really, I mean, just as an example on the A for assessment.
Chad Sowash (09:04.194)
More than just a tip.
Adam Gordon (09:15.043)
Recruitment teams are telling us that their process stalls when the recruiter says to the hiring manager, can you create a scenario and some questions related to that scenario for me to assess these candidates on? mean, the recruiter is never going to do, the hiring manager is never going to do that. Even going to the hiring manager and saying, can you create some competency based questions for this treasury manager job that you're asking me to work on? I mean, the head of finance is
going to sit and create competency -based questions for that. So why don't we use a large language model to give the recruiter the ability to create, as a minimum, the draft for these things, to then get the hiring manager to approve that, and that'll make the process a lot more fluid. So there are so many different areas of recruiting where we don't need to start from the beginning. We don't need to start from the beginning in writing a job description.
I mean, that's a really perfect one. The hiring manager says, right, it's the first time we're hiring for this. I don't have any job description for it. HR says, yeah, we don't have a job description for it. Hey, recruitment, you build one. And the recruiter's like, I don't know where to start for this underwater basket weaver job. I've never done that job before. So can you use Gen .AI to help you build that? Of course you can, absolutely. So infusing generativity, you need to think about the tasks.
Joel Cheesman (10:38.752)
Molt, Molt, Molt has to be the sexiest acronym.
Adam Gordon (10:43.589)
Malt, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm happy too, absolutely.
Joel Cheesman (10:44.45)
So sexy. I'm going to remember that one. Full disclosure as well. I get an occasional hug and a dram from Adam when I see him. That's my full disclosure on relationship with Adam. Where does this end up? I've heard it's a commodity. We're all going to have Google or Microsoft co -pilots.
Are we going to need this stuff as a recruiting tool? Will we just say like, I need to write a job description. I'm going to go to my co -pilot and do it, you know, on my personal account. You know, we've talked about like search engines. Everybody had search until Google came out and built a molt or moat. Sorry. will it be a differentiator
HR tech has AI in it or will it be a commodity that you just got to have and it's got to be part of the system? I'm just curious your thoughts on where this thing ends
Adam Gordon (11:41.795)
I mean, it's already table stakes, right? So if you go and look at the way that we're positioning our company, we certainly don't put generative AI out there in the first paragraph or the first page of the website. It's not something we're boasting about at all. It's not something we really even talk about. It is oil in the vehicle. so we use one specific large language model at this point, OpenAI is the default. However, by the end of this year,
we're going to give our customers the ability to just switch from OpenAI to another one or another one or another one. And they can choose which one it is and it would make much difference in terms of performance. The reason we started with OpenAI is because we tested performance on four different LLMs and we found that it was providing the best results and we could tame it the best as well. like it's already table stakes and the
Chad Sowash (12:34.274)
Tell me what tame it, what do you mean tame it?
Adam Gordon (12:37.733)
We can control it in a way whereby we can get it to provide back consistent results in the right type of format, recognizing the prompts that are put into it, and really understanding what that prompt means. So if you've got a prompt which includes, here's the tone of voice, we want bullet points for this bit, we want pros for this bit, we need the heading always to look like this, so
what it's providing back, looks consistent each time, it's on brand and the recruiter recognizes the produce they're getting, then yeah, open AI is easier to control.
Joel Cheesman (13:14.264)
So are you saying similar like if I want to, if I want my, you know, my default search is Google, but if I want to do duck duck, go, or I want to do something else, are you saying that we will eventually get to a point where every AI integration is the user will decide, Hey, I want to default to llama or I want to default to open AI or when I want to do Gemini. Like, is that the future that you're
Adam Gordon (13:37.775)
Yeah, yeah, I would think so, yeah, because I mean, just in the same way that like our customers, large talent acquisition teams, they're either on Microsoft for everything or they're on Google for everything because that's what their company has chosen as like an operating system for their email and those sorts of things.
Joel Cheesman (13:56.758)
And you as a vendor needs to prepare for whatever AI the company is going to default to. Is that kind of the model you think?
Adam Gordon (14:03.461)
Yeah, we need to we need to be agnostic. Yeah, we need to be agnostic. Absolutely. And I think you could also compare it to like, you know, I talked about oil, you could compare it to fuel for a car. Like this, there's certain certain drivers who are going to prefer their fuel from Texaco. And there's others that will prefer it from Shell or BP or whatever it might be. And there's some who just don't care. Most don't care. It's just whatever is closest. But it absolutely I believe it's going to be that
that commoditized and that's the way we think about it just now. We're not building our product as a gen AI product. We're not telling the world it is a gen AI product. mean, most recruitment technology that is not already deeply embedded generative AI is way behind, but this is table stakes now. It's not a differentiator. The differentiator is how you harness it.
and how you deliver the experience to the user and all of the functionality you put around that. So it's like the, it's the chassis. It's like, I heard you talking about electric cars on Friday and talking about the Tesla might fall back or whatever it is. And you've got BYD that's coming ahead. BYD is a chassis. Tesla is a chassis. The difference between, just use, they use the same electricity.
Chad Sowash (15:07.991)
Mm -hmm.
Adam Gordon (15:28.569)
in the same way that SaaS products are using the same generative AI. But the difference is maybe the BYD chassis and all the other technology that it's got in there could be a lot better than Tesla. That is their battleground. The battleground for recruitment technology is in around the user experience, the recruiter experience, the ability to do more with less clicks.
Chad Sowash (15:40.214)
Mm -hmm.
Adam Gordon (15:55.089)
the ability to provide more solutions within the one workspace. I really don't think there's a big future in these products that are coming out all over the place, which is, hey, this is Gen .ai for job adverts, or this is Gen .ai for one small thing. They're features, 100 % they're features.
Chad Sowash (16:12.194)
Those are features.
Joel Cheesman (16:14.52)
Yeah. Well, it makes branding that much more important, right? Cause if everyone's using the same thing, not only just how you use it, this, the Tesla brand is much different than the BYD brand, even though they're the same car, just like BMW and Volkswagen get you to the same place with the same kind of engine. So do you think branding is going to be that much more important? Are we going to see a lot more conference islands and people building these sort of monolithic brands and hoping that they become a premier brand for this stuff?
Chad Sowash (16:39.988)
Yeah.
Adam Gordon (16:46.277)
I think the branding is part of it. Yeah. I mean, I don't believe, I don't believe that I could be successful with my company purely based on branding. I think that I can, I will definitely be successful with my company based on the number of solutions it can provide in as little clicks as possible. And therefore the amount of time that it can save for a recruiter and the more, you know, the, the, usefulness of the functionality. I think that the brand follows
but it's all about product and experience. And if the product and the experience for the user, for the recruiter is absolutely brilliant, you can legitimately convey a brand which is one of excellence.
Chad Sowash (17:32.674)
Well, and you can also, I would assume as a vendor with these tasks, these solutions, you can see which one's being used the most. So there can be prioritizing of that within the desktop, not to mention there can also be reporting back to the leadership on how they're being used. then there could be training that go along with that,
Adam Gordon (17:59.761)
Yeah, 100%. And not just the solutions we've developed incidentally, but we're providing information on which third party solutions are getting clicked the most, which a lot of vendors don't provide. So if somebody wants to understand ROI across their entire tech stack, then that's one of the things that we're providing. That's not a gen AI related solution. So there's a lot of non -gen AI focused solutions that we've put into our product as we've sought to...
make life for recruiters easier and faster to get their tasks accomplished. So we are intensively focused on helping recruiters get their tasks accomplished in less clicks. And whether that means there's a Gen .ai solution in that or whether it's not. The 28 solutions that we have today, probably 30, there's probably 34 solutions. Probably six of them that are non Gen .ai solutions at this point. So it's not just about generative AI.
On the issue around being able to understand what's getting used and what's not getting used, we've already shelved three solutions which weren't getting used. And we understand why they weren't getting used because they were pretty much direct overlap with what happens in an applicant tracking system. And we didn't know that. But now we know that. We won't reintroduce that because we don't want to create any type of overlap because that just is confusion.
We've got rid of, we're continuously adding additional solutions, but we will continuously remove solutions as well, as we can see they're not popular.
Joel Cheesman (19:36.014)
So one of the keys to branding that Adam failed to mention is if you put a kilt on anything, it automatically gets a better brand in the marketplace. Curious about portability, Adam, you're describing a world where all these things are commodities. They all play with every system that you use, whether it's email or my SaaS product or whatever. Well, we have a day where
I can use multiple services and my AI activities are portable across all these services. I mean, we're talking about Apple intelligence with open AI and they're going to put everything in. we get to a day where HR tech plays in an integrated way with everything that you're using and you don't have a certain account separately that you can port all of these systems to other HR tech or no?
Adam Gordon (20:34.043)
I mean, think that there's two things I want to address based on that question. The first
Adam Gordon (20:43.985)
You can do everything that we've developed pretty much, every generative AI solution that we've developed within our product, you could just do on ChatGPT. If you know how to do really, really good prompt engineering, there's one solution we offer, which includes 5 ,000 words of prompting that needs to go into it to produce what come, hmm, yeah.
Chad Sowash (21:06.488)
Five thousand?
Adam Gordon (21:09.617)
It's called a playbook. develops between 20 and 30 assets in one go. And there's 5 ,000 words of generative AI prompting that goes into that to develop this playbook. And you would need to be incredibly sophisticated around how to use Gemini or ChatGPT to get that type of thing back. But technically you could. The difference, however, is when you're talking about portability, the difference
If I'm doing that on ChatGPT, it's almost certain that my colleagues don't have access to that good work that I've created, that they don't have the ability to upvote it and downvote it and comment on it and tag people in it and copy it and clone it and share it. And so I think the ability to share the opportunity for people to be able to share each other's great work and to see what's the most popular and successful.
and continuously use the assets that are most popular and successful, whether that be interview questions, competency -based interview questions, and objection handling responses, and outreach messaging, and other things like
Chad Sowash (22:23.01)
So you're crowdsourcing around the different areas to be able to share the information. So that's not a one -off. It's actually building almost like libraries.
Adam Gordon (22:34.981)
I mean, was one, when I was doing focus groups about this subject back last year, and one talent acquisition manager told me that she'd identified that day of the focus group that three people in her team had all written the same job advert in different countries. And I said, you know, what could have been better there? And she said, well, the person who wrote the best one should have written it and stored it somewhere and everybody else used it. You know, that's a really important element of
So when you use the word portability, I'm thinking to myself, yeah, what we need is the ability for everybody to be able to retrieve each other's great work and make use of that in library functionality. In terms of portability and moving things around different systems, we'll see what happens with our technology, but we are being asked for a certain amount of integration so that people can access their outreach messaging and their social media posts and their job adverts and things like
from within the applicant tracking system. They're using Poetry to build it, but they're getting the produce within the ATS. That's something that I can see happening. People don't want to toggle if they can avoid toggling between different systems. integrations are definitely important. And then the other thing that this leads me to talk about is the concept of retrieval augmented generation.
A company already has hiring policies and like onboarding policies and it's got lots of documents and things like that. Well, if we can, when we are creating new things, if we can automatically retrieve and read all of the information from inside that and that augments that job advert or it augments that, you know, kickoff meeting template or whatever it might be.
Joel Cheesman (24:18.808)
Mm -hmm.
Adam Gordon (24:29.517)
then that makes life better for recruiters as well. So that's something that we're doing and it's something that we're focused intensively
Chad Sowash (24:38.242)
feels like we're in phase one where we're just trying to figure out from a practicality standpoint where we can weave in large language models to be able to provide better efficiencies, right? I think then the next phase is, well, wait a minute. We want to train all of that data that we actually got back along with all the data that we have in our data lakes, data pools, and our applicant tracking systems in one
right, or siloed models. And then they start to get more strategic with it. We're not strategic yet. And I feel like that's going to be the next big step is we're going to use that data more strategically. And then we're going to focus on a model that we feel works best for
Adam Gordon (25:24.441)
Yeah, it could be. mean, training a large language model is not something that we're going to be doing in the short term. It involves, you you need many, many millions of dollars to do that. It's also, there's a lot of inefficiency in that. In that when you're training a model, what you're doing is you're taking an export of the data from that large language model at that time. One minute later, it's out of date. So what you're training is based on an out of date LLM.
Chad Sowash (25:47.138)
Mm -hmm.
Adam Gordon (25:54.819)
So you are literally exporting the contents of that LLM before you then start training it yourself. Now, I don't know how long the training process actually lasts before it's producing things that are more useful for your purposes. But certainly when we looked at this, we concluded that by far the best opportunity for us as a company.
was to do retrieval augmented generation and to use a live LLM that is continuously updating. And if we can put in the absolute most tailored prompt engineering and give our customers the ability to go and fill in questionnaires, which are things like, what does your company do? Why was it founded? What's its purpose?
and for us to be able to read their career site and read their website and read all of their documents that they upload into our product, we certainly, we did a lot of study on this to determine whether training a model was gonna be the optimal thing for us to do. And we concluded it definitely wasn't. Now, for a company like Eightfold or a company like Workday, for example,
you know, maybe that is the right thing to do. I don't know. I don't know what money and, you know, people and investment they put into something like this. And I don't know what the future holds for that. But at this point, we're getting really great results without without doing any like what you would technically describe as training.
Chad Sowash (27:36.662)
So do you have any case studies thus far that actually demonstrates the kind of time savings that recruiters are getting?
Adam Gordon (27:46.097)
Yeah, so one global talent acquisition team, FMCG companies told us that they estimate that their recruiters are saving 64 minutes per day through using all of these solutions. And that time is saved from three things. The first is people toggle tax, people navigating from one place to another place to another place in order to get all the little components of things they need to get their tasks done.
The second thing is people spending their time thinking about what to write on that social media post or that job advert and just the amount of time taken to start writing things, which really does take a long time. And then the third is the time that people are spending posting on Teams or on Slack saying, hey, does anybody know where I can find whatever it is? Well,
you don't need to know where to find it now because it's all in one place. know, that's kind of the, the, the real killer is the amount of time spent that the recruiters are spending trying to find the things that they need to get their tasks done. Now we've also done some research with the firm, the forum for greenhouse recruitment managers who I'm sorry, they have changed their name to the talent lab. I think it's called and I should.
Chad Sowash (29:09.921)
Okay.
Adam Gordon (29:10.789)
This is really bad. I can't remember what they changed the name to. I think it's the talent lab. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a customer of theirs there. And I still can't remember what they changed. However, they are a brilliant organization and they are, we've done some research with them. Several hundred talent acquisition managers have taken part in this research. And I'm just awaiting the results right now around exactly how long people are spending on doing different tasks.
Chad Sowash (29:14.626)
Well, they shouldn't have changed their name then.
Adam Gordon (29:40.667)
We've done a time and motion study, it's called. yeah, I think recruiters are spending a lot of time doing things they don't need to be doing if they could harness generative AI properly.
Joel Cheesman (29:52.876)
Yeah. Talk, let's talk about threats for a second. Adam, you mentioned going into someone's ATS or their own database and looking at the model there and figuring stuff out. Obviously privacy screams to me when you say stuff like that. And certainly you're over in a part of the world that cares a lot about privacy and what happens to people's data. So talk
some of the threats you see as AI and generative AI gets rolled out into a lot of vendor products and integrations into the solutions that we use every
Adam Gordon (30:25.829)
Yeah, it's a very great question. And it's one that I've entirely avoided by having zero candidate profiles or candidate information in the technology that we've developed. And we will never have any candidate profiles or email addresses or anything like that. And guess what? We're sailing through the InfoSec questionnaires as a result of that, which is a lot of fun. Press the button, sit back, chill out.
mocktails all around. yeah, but the truth is, absolutely, there are lots of organizations where in fact, I spoke to an RPO company today, a big one, you all know them. they've actually banned use of chat GPT and other large language models by their recruiters at this point, because they are evaluating what is this gonna do if I let
open AI into my applicant tracking system and start looking at my candidate's CVs and my candidate's email addresses and home addresses and phone numbers. so a lot of companies are being very reserved about how they're going about doing this. And I think they've got every right to do that. And I think it's prudent of them to do it. What we're doing is we're using generative AI to build
job adverts and outreach messaging and policies and things that are for draft and not necessarily for things that are just gonna go straight onto the website or like, you I think that there's a lot of things to consider and the chief information officer's job is undoubtedly more exciting and terrifying.
in equal measure than it ever has been.
Chad Sowash (32:23.104)
Yes. Yes, I agree. I'm let you out on this one. I actually have a call in from a text question. This is from a long time listener. Said, ask Adam how it feels to employ the Cheddar and Cheese favorite Scotsman.
Adam Gordon (32:40.689)
Yeah. So Joel just messaged Chad to ask that question. Got it. Yeah, yeah, it's good. Look, I look every this is this is actually a slight change of subject here, but the subject of talent density, right? You know, it's been quite an important one recently.
Chad Sowash (32:49.634)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:51.724)
Lies.
Adam Gordon (33:06.117)
I don't believe there's a company in our industry with a higher degree of talent density than mine. Every single person, there's only four people in the company, but every single one of us can do at least five different jobs that you would find in a much larger recruitment technology company. so, know, I, when you are a, smaller your company, the more important is that everybody can do lots of things. And Steven McGrath is a personification of a Swiss army knife.
for sure. And in fact, when I first hired him the first time around, day one, this is not a joke, day one, him joining my company as a customer success manager, I didn't have any customers to hand over to him at that point. And I told him to do a 300 section information security questionnaire for a well known US chocolate company. And the reason I did that was because
I wanted him to just get sheep dipped into the business and to go and just learn everything he could about our product from taking part in this InfoSec questionnaire. And that guy is brilliant and it's a real privilege to have the opportunity to work with him again. And I told you, you'd like him when you first met him. I sent him in my place to Leven's conference because I couldn't go for some reason. And I sent him in my place and I'd said to you, honestly, he's better than me anyway. So, and it seems like you agreed.
Chad Sowash (34:22.353)
You did.
Joel Cheesman (34:31.75)
Steven is the best. He's the best. He's the best. All right, everybody. is Adam Gordon, our second favorite Scotsman in the whole world. He is the co -founder at Poetry. Adam, for our listeners who want to connect with you as if they're not already, where can they find out more or connect with
Chad Sowash (34:35.703)
we, I tell you, we love her some
Adam Gordon (34:55.353)
They can find out more by going to poetryhr .com where everybody can sign up for one free account to have a scout around the workspace and check it out for yourself. That's free for one user for your company forever. And I'm easy to find Adam Gordon Poetry. anybody that wants to talk about recruiter enablement ever can come on my YouTube channel about the subject as well. And yeah, thank you. I've really loved
Joel Cheesman (35:23.022)
And that everybody is a CEO who knows a little something about marketing. Chad, that is another one in the can. Hopefully we see a few of these favorite Scots of ours next week in Nebworth at RecFest. Another one in the can, we out.
Adam Gordon (35:23.513)
experience to join you again today, guys.
Chad Sowash (35:39.467)
and
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