Scale Your Suck: Sackett on AI and Talent

Tim Sackett joins Chad & Cheese to explain why recruiters might want to start updating their LinkedIn profiles now. His hot take? Recruiting jobs, as we know them, have about 18 months left before AI makes most of them as useful as a fax machine in 2025.

Highlights include:

• Why AI won’t “elevate recruiters to strategic work”… because no one knows what that even means

• Sackett’s killer line: “Great tech won’t fix bad recruiting—it’ll just help you suck faster”

• The real future of talent pros: assassin-level headhunters, not seat-fillers

• Nepotism stories, dwarf jokes, and why CEOs secretly think their TA teams suck

If you’re looking for feel-good AI fluff, keep scrolling. If you want a brutally honest roadmap for how tech is blowing up recruiting—this is the episode.

Get ready, kids. The meteor is coming, and Sackett brought the matches.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman: All right, let's do this. We are the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always by Chad Sowash. And this is the Sessions AI Frontline Series. As we welcome Tim Sackett, CEO of HRUtech.com. Tim, welcome to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.

Tim Sackett: Thanks for having me. It's been a while. I've obviously been on before, but not for this.

Joel Cheesman: And last time you just had me. So now you get the trifecta. So I'm sure you're a little nervous. It's okay. We'll be gentle.

Tim Sackett: Please don't beat me up.

Joel Cheesman: So for a lot of our viewers out there that don't know you, give us the elevator pitch.

Tim Sackett: Like own and run staffing firm that my mother started 45 years ago. So nepotism in full swing, which is amazing. George LaRocque and I just launched the HR Tech 100 Fund. And I look at all kinds of recruiting tech and HR tech and write about it and have a blog. Do we still say blog? Is there a new word for it?

Joel Cheesman: Sure, why not? Talk about the fund. It's interesting. You have a certain amount of people put in money, just everyday folks, and then you guys decide where to put money on startups. Am I describing that correctly?

Tim Sackett: Yeah, the whole concept is pretty cool. It came out of a charity event that I got invited to, and it's called The 100 Men. And that's also a movie, a different story. So the concept was...

Joel Cheesman: It's also Friday night for Chad.

Tim Sackett: One hundred dudes show up with $250, and they have two charities come in and pitch. One of the charities walks away with $25,000. So local charities. Your commitment as being one of the 100 men was do this every quarter, so $1000 a year. So there was a little bit of FOMO when I got the call. It was like, hey, are you one of the 100 men? And I'm like, well, I hope so. And I hope I'm number one and not number 100. Like whatever, you know. And so then I had like, you know, we all talk about tech. And we all know we have these extended friend groups and...

Chad Sowash: Professionals and peers.

Tim Sackett: And what we found was very few of them are actually invested in the technology that we talk about, recommend, do all that. And so the concept is 100 people within our space, $10,000 each. And it's not lost on you that that's still big money for a lot of people. But in the VC world, that's tiny. That's like Jordan betting $10 blackjack, right? It's tiny. But it's a million dollars. One hundred people, unlike a normal VC fund, everyone owns 1%. And so it's completely transparent. There's a voting mechanism. So when deal flow comes, we'll actually be very democratic about it, vote for. If vote's yes, we're going to move forward. No, we'll go on to the next deal.

Joel Cheesman: So a company will pitch you. You'll be the first level of yes, and then you'll pitch it to the hundred. And then democratically, they'll decide whether or not...

[overlapping conversation]

Chad Sowash: One winner on this one?

Tim Sackett: No, no, no. I think we're going to try to get multiples. Part of it is we don't know the deal flow that will come in yet. And George and I, even though we're technically general partners, we're still just one of two of the 100 from that standpoint. So that was key for us not to go because most VCs are 2 and 20. It's like 2% of the money is going to go to expenses, 20% of the profits are going to go to the general partners first. They're making money regardless. And we're like, that's not what this is all about. This was about obviously real fun trying to make money. But if you could imagine, we have so many VCs that are in our space that are putting money. And if you have 100 of us with our connections, our knowledge base, you would think you could help them be more successful. That's the thesis, right?

Joel Cheesman: Have you hit the million dollar mark?

Tim Sackett: No, we just opened like four weeks ago.

Chad Sowash: Slow your roll, Cheesman, Jesus.

Joel Cheesman: Well, send Sackett, man. Come on.

Tim Sackett: Well, again, we don't know what we don't know. And so we sent it out to a small group of like 50 first to get all the questions. And there was a lot of stuff that we had no idea how to answer. So again, part of that education now is like George and I going back, doing the FAQ and putting all that together. And then there's obviously a bigger list that we'll send out too. But we already have like CHROs. We already have advisors and analysts. We have some people that are like actual like HR tech startup founders that are a part of it. So all of that, like that's the group we were looking for.

Chad Sowash: Sweet. So you talked about writing, whether it's a blog or it's a book. You wrote the book Talent Fix.

Tim Sackett: Yeah.

Chad Sowash: And that's got to be blowing up right now, right? I mean, is there another volume coming? Because obviously all this tech, I mean, and obviously there's got to be a huge pivot from the first volume, second volume. You've got two, right?

Tim Sackett: Yeah. Volume two is out. That's the one that's out now. I'm always interested because like I wrote like 5000 blog posts, like over a million words. And like all of a sudden you write a book and somehow you're more important. And I'm like, you know, I wrote, it's 65,000 words. I have over a million.

Joel Cheesman: What a strong flex that is. 1000 blog posts, you know.

Tim Sackett: Is it, though? It never got me anything. And then all of a sudden the book comes and people go, oh, we want you to keynote our conference. You're like, because I have a book? Like, all right, cool. Let's do it. And I do hear from people all the time that will come up and go, oh my gosh, I read your book. Like I just ran into a head of TA and the first time I met them, they're like, oh, I have your book. I was reading your book. And you're like, it's humbling. That's pretty cool. And when someone like, that's how they know you from that.

Joel Cheesman: Yeah. So talk about the book and generally what it's about.

Tim Sackett: So the first volume was like traditional kind of business, like the original. And it was like, in my mind, it's all conceptually, that's all I could do is like, oh, it's like you have 12 chapters, and it's very traditional from that setup. And it was all about if I was to come run your TA shop, what would I do from beginning to end? Like even from the interview for that TA leader. And because they had so many people reaching out to us, and you guys get the same thing, and they went for advice.

Tim Sackett: They want free advice. And so I'm like, all right, well, hey, go buy the book. And they're like, look, I don't wanna buy your stupid book. Just tell me, answer my question, right? Just answer my question. And it was SHRM published. And so again, I had like four editors coming back to me and like, are you sure you wanna say darn? Like, yeah, I do, you know? And so the next one, when I did volume two, because they said, hey, we need to update this. And I'm like, and I went back and read my own book. And I'm like, it actually holds up pretty well. I mean, there's some like data stuff I wanna change and blah, blah, blah, AI stuff.

Chad Sowash: Was it more a process that held up really well because the process really isn't gonna change?

Tim Sackett: Yeah.

Chad Sowash: Okay.

Tim Sackett: I mean, that's what you learn, right? I always say like, you know, like that was one of the quotes from the book is like, if you know, if you suck at recruiting, great recruiting technology will allow you to suck much faster, you know? And so...

Chad Sowash: Scale your suck.

[laughter]

Tim Sackett: Yeah, exactly. That's the third book, right? Scale Your Suck.

Chad Sowash: Trademark that.

Tim Sackett: Yes. And so, but so then in the second volume, I'm like, well, there's all kinds of other stuff I wanna add. So really the second volume is the first volume and like 40% more content.

Chad Sowash: Okay.

Tim Sackett: And then I got really aggressive. Cause I'm like, oh, they're just gonna cut all this crap. They're gonna make me change stuff. And so I did like the white guy's guide to diversity recruiting. I did a chapter on hiring pretty people. Like I just did all this stuff thinking like they were gonna change it. And the editors came back and were like, no, that's on you now, buddy. It's going live, you own it, wear that, wear it. So like, I actually had more fun with the second one and I'm getting ready to have meetings to pitch third, fourth book, stuff like that.

Chad Sowash: We're seeing platforms literally just pivot. Platforms that have been around for a while that have a nice-sized portfolio, and we haven't seen this before. We've seen a lot of legacy systems literally just die. To lay out. I mean, big, big player, and they just... The atrophy happens. That's what we're used to. We're used to that happening. Now we're seeing companies literally pivot, and we have not seen those big of pivots before. Is that going to be a big part of the book? Understanding why the pivot happens?

Tim Sackett: Yeah, we all look at... We take a look at Monster Career Builder stories, which are the classic in our own space, but it's not... It's every function, right? You could take a look at Waymo and Tesla and go, what's Ford doing? Are they going to be a brand... Will they be around 25 years from now? You can go, oh, they've been around for hundreds of years. They're going to. We already know that there's companies that are going to go away. We see the big three in HCM with SAP, Oracle, Workday, and there's a couple of those that are like, hey, we have our moat built. We're fine. We're going to be great forever. And you're like, are you sure? Because ServiceNow and Salesforce. People are going, hey, wait a minute. We think we have better AI that is going to hook together. We're a more open platform, blah, blah, blah. I think there's some real danger for some of those.

Chad Sowash: The people they sell to are higher powered people, the CROs, the CFOs. The CMOs in some cases. So yeah.

Joel Cheesman: And there's also just computing power that only those big companies can deal with. It's not a job board, right? It's not everyone can do this with a WordPress plugin. These are serious technologies. So I'm curious, does this get consolidated? Do people go away? Will there be the next big players? We have unicorns in our space like Deal, Rippling, et cetera. Will it be a mix of all those? How do you see the vendor space shaking out in say five to seven years?

Tim Sackett: I do think... We always see that because one thing we know is if somebody's doing something that works, other people are going to do it. The classic one is Paradox in our space over the last five, eight years has blown up. And when I talk to TA leaders that buy it, the positive thing is they actually said it would do this, and it actually did this. And that becomes... That's the whole marketing pitch. We actually are going to do what we said we were going to do. Because the vast majority of the tech in our space does not do that.

Chad Sowash: It's vaporware. It's vaporware in many cases.

Tim Sackett: I don't even know if it's vapor or they just... It's a constant oversell, under deliver model.

Joel Cheesman: It's a lot of salespeople promising and technology people going, oh, it doesn't do that.

Tim Sackett: And you're like, we're 18 months in, and we're still implementing? Like what? No, like I can't do this.

Chad Sowash: So, I guess in the book or just in normal conversation, is that something that you're hitting a lot on? Because you're right. We're seeing vendors who literally are doing pretty damn well. You said Paradox and obviously some of the others. Would that be a part of it? And do we really need a mechanism in which to be able to have due diligence happening in the public sphere? Would that be something that you could actually do on talent fix along with the SHRM connections. Those types of things.

Tim Sackett: Yeah, who knows? I think there's a lot of people... It becomes the marketplace. I know like Career Crossroads has some of that stuff behind the paywall where you get this Yelpification of like, what really works, what doesn't. And we don't see it. Part of it is I think it's just difficult to maintain those profiles and things like that. Like, Madeline Rano at Aptitude is a friend of mine, and we've talked about, should we build this, and we're like... And then you start really thinking about it. You're like, the moment it's built, it's old.

Chad Sowash: Oh yeah, it's deep. 

Tim Sackett: And it's hard to keep up and then how do you democratize where somebody can have a profile because you want to conclude everybody. I think it's really tough. The one thing I'm not getting now with the AI is like all the vendors are doing their stuff, and they show you the demos, and we see this stuff. And we see the use case. You're like, oh my gosh, this stuff is amazing if it does what it says it's going to do. What you don't have... We don't have any practitioners in our space going, hey, by the way, I flipped this switch on this one over here and this is actually what it did. And then this is how it changed how our process was, and then here's what my person did, right? And here's now what my recruiter job is. And no one's sharing that stuff. And you're like, why? Is it because the AI stuff isn't ready for real time?

Joel Cheesman: Well, you talk about a disconnect.

Tim Sackett: Or do they think it's some kind of secret sauce, right? 

Joel Cheesman: You've talked before that a solution will build something because their customers ask for it, versus we think it's cool. And so I think you just sort of set the table for that. Why is there such a disconnect between vendors building what they think the consumer wants and really what the consumer wants or needs?

Tim Sackett: Yeah, being somebody who was a TA practitioner, what I can say is, we believe that the buyer's way more sophisticated than what they are around the technology. And so we give them too many options. And they're not like us, which are nerds in the space and go and take a look at hundreds of products and know the stuff. They're heads down with their ass on fire trying to do the job. And then all of a sudden someone goes, hey, you need AI, and they'll get sold something that promise that doesn't work, whatever, they don't know how to do it, who knows, and then it just gets lost. And so it's simply that we have a community of marketing people that believe that their buyer is really well-informed and smart. Then when you get in the product side... Joel, that's really what you're talking about is like, oh, we listen to our customers. Stop listening to your customers. Most of them have no idea what they actually want or need, but you might be able to deliver something that changes their lives because you thought about it differently. And they're like, oh, well, if we could change this title of this column to this. And you're like, okay, here's our new feature. What? Like, no, stop this.

Chad Sowash: And do you see the agentic side of the house actually helping their quote-unquote bespoke process? Because everybody has a different process, even though they probably shouldn't. I get it from high volume to the C-suite. I totally get that. But at the end of the day, you can still make them feel special with their agent that does what they need them to do, but it's a standardized agent. Do you think that helps with adoption and them feeling like they're special? Because that's what it all comes down to.

Tim Sackett: Yeah, it's the superpower we have in recruiting, right? Is that we have this ability to make anyone feel special, feel wanted, feel needed.

Chad Sowash: Yeah. Until they go on a black hole. 

Tim Sackett: And yet somehow... Yeah, and somehow we screw it up. But we have the one psychological thing everybody in the world wants, and we screw it up. And so, if 100 people apply to a job in most companies, 3% to 5% of those people are going to get into the process. So to me, the hope of Agentic and AI in general is that I can now have 100% of the people be a part of the process. Talk about inclusion. We're going to see inclusion at a process we've never seen because now you have 100% in. Now, does that cause downstream problems? Imagine in the 3% to 5% that we screw around with now and don't give them feedback, now you have 100% in, and they're not getting feedback. So then, okay, well, wait a minute, we'll just layer more AI. That'll give the feedback, you know? And legal teams are screaming going, no, don't listen to Sackett on the pod. That's terrible advice, you know?

Joel Cheesman: One of the things historically that I've found interesting is the aversion to buying something that may put you out of a job. And I feel like that's a trend that happens pretty frequently. And you mentioned, hey, it's AI, we have to buy it. Then it's co-pilot, we have to buy it. And now it's agentic, and we have to buy it. Do we risk moving too fast, scaring the buyer too much? Because I do think there is an aversion to buying something that may take your job away from you. 

Tim Sackett: Joel, I think there's confusion, and it keeps getting worse from the buyer side. One is they just don't really understand the different kinds of AI that are out there and what the risk is for certain ones, right? And what the risk isn't for other ones. And so they just kind of panic and go, no, all AI is risky. And you're like, well, not really. Not anymore. But are there some? For sure. And so you're like, where's that level of what you want to do? So I do think it's interesting that there just isn't that education yet around what that is and what it could be.

Joel Cheesman: Because most of the vendors I talk to, they're like, we don't even talk to HR. We go right to the C-suite. We talk to the CTO.

Tim Sackett: They all want to, right?

Joel Cheesman: Well, they always try to.

Tim Sackett: If they say that, I'm like, bullshit.

Joel Cheesman: How does HR feel about that?

Tim Sackett: No, you don't. You wish you did.

Chad Sowash: They try.

Joel Cheesman: So it's all bullshit?

Tim Sackett: Well, no, I mean, that's the constant kind of thing in our industry too is like, oh, we just need to, this is the person we need to talk with. And you're like, yeah, but like, come on. The reality is like, yeah, most of the time... Here's what my issue is, is we think our IT team and our legal team know more about AI than we do. Turns out they also don't know AI.

Chad Sowash: Especially the legal team, Jesus.

Tim Sackett: For sure. But we all, but also like, think about your normal corporate IT team. They don't necessarily, unless they're just curious about AI themselves, they're more about structure, networking, security, all these things. Now, again, they might know more AI because some of that stuff's already been built in, but the vast majority, especially like mid-enterprise SMB IT people, unless they're intellectually curious about just technology and maybe they have that, they don't know AI either. And for sure the legal teams don't, right? So, you know, they might know law, but they don't know what is actually nervous and what isn't, right?

Chad Sowash: So going back to Joel's question, digging in a little bit further with regard to the agents taking tasks away, RPA being structured better, better process methodologies, those types of things, it is going to take work off of humans' plates, right? And we all know that it's like, well, it's going to take work off humans' plates and then we're going to allow them to do other things, but we're going to keep them around. We all know to some extent, that's bullshit. That's going to allow for a contraction of that headcount so that they pay less, right? So how long do you think it is before we actually see at least the front end of the funnel from a talent standpoint become really fully automated? Because you can scale that much faster. It's harder to scale off a bench and you know that better than anybody does.

Tim Sackett: Yeah, I think 18 months.

Chad Sowash: Yeah?

Tim Sackett: And you're asking the right question. And the question is, and every vendor is selling like right now, it's like, we're going to give you this capacity and you can do more strategic work, higher level work. And I had a head of TA last week when we were having this conversation. He's like, what the fuck is that? He's like, if I knew what more higher level strategic work was for the last two decades, I would have been doing it.

Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

Tim Sackett: So you're telling me to do more strategic work. Now tell me what that is. And like, so then you can really dig in and have some great conversations. I'm not...

Chad Sowash: Learn the business is one.

Tim Sackett: The job of a recruiter as it is today will be gone in 18 months in my estimation, maybe 36 for laggard companies, blah, blah, blah. I could make it gone today with the technology already on the market. But that doesn't mean the job of the recruiter goes away. I think there's a lot of people that are going to go, okay, now what do we do? So think about, if I go talk to a CEO today and say, hey, how's your TA team doing? 90% of them plus will go, they suck. It's awful. Our talent attractions are terrible. So then you go, well, what do you think they should be doing? And that's what they're not doing. To me, so if we truly say we hire top talent, then let's actually figure that out and go hire top talent. Let's not hire the tallest of the seven dwarfs. Let's not hire the best of the person who applied when the job was open, which could be the worst talent in your market. But then tell our CEO to say, we only hire top talent. Like, no, you don't. You don't. Almost nobody.

Tim Sackett: You get lucky sometimes, but we're not really doing it. So then you go, okay, cool. 80% of the recruiting tasks are gone. All right, now you can be an assassin. Now you can go hunt for talent. Now you can nurture somebody. Chad, if you're the best talent person in the world that I want to come after, one call isn't going to land you.

Chad Sowash: No.

Tim Sackett: I'm going to have to work on you over time.

Chad Sowash: Engagement, yeah. It's a nudge.

Tim Sackett: It's like, you didn't get Julie in the first conversation.

Chad Sowash: No.

Tim Sackett: It took time.

Chad Sowash: Oh, she didn't get me in the first conversation.

Tim Sackett: Yeah, sure. But we think somehow that's recruiting is because we made one call, and you're like, no. If you know someone's really good at your competitor, it might take you 12 months, 18 months to actually really build that relationship where they go, holy crap. They really want me. I need to go have the conversation and figure this out.

Chad Sowash: Do we finally see a convergence of the entire talent lifecycle? Because we've got talent acquisition, talent management, and a lot of the talent management stuff is supposed to be owned, but it doesn't look like it's owned. Not to mention talent should own talent. I think that's one of the biggest areas where we've fallen down is not being able to retain and keep top talent, develop top talent, and then get rid of talent that's not so top, right? And being able to do that through a lifecycle. Do you think that convergence, and this is going to allow for that convergence?

Tim Sackett: Yeah. Yeah. To me, if I had to go and say, hey, you have the chance to redo and make whatever this talent person is, it's no longer titled as a recruiter. It's going to be talent advisor or whatever, blah, blah. Come up with whatever title you want. What we've known is for decades our hiring managers suck at increasing the talent on their team. Hiring, developing, retaining, performance management, all that.

Chad Sowash: Actually leading is what those, yes, that's leadership.

Tim Sackett: Turns out. But what if we actually embedded a talent professional in their team to work side by side, their right-hand person that your entire job is to make sure our talent increases continually every single day on our team? And it has all those aspects. And you're still going to use AI to do that in terms of like, especially like around development, around performance, blah, blah, blah. But now that leader can go, I can still focus on the success of the function, but I know also the bigger part of this is the talent increase. And I have somebody here that that's their part of that job. And to me, I'm like, dang, I would love to try that. I think that could be really valuable. And what I know is the hiring manager would go, for the first time, I actually feel supported by HR.

Chad Sowash: And they understand the business. That's the thing is that we ask recruiters to spread themselves too thin and understand the entire broad base of this, as opposed to really just digging into a department, understanding what are vital roles, what's actually going to impact the business, revenue, EBITDA, whatever that is. And that's what we don't understand in talent today because we're not embedded in the business.

Tim Sackett: Yeah. It goes back to, was it Maya Greenhouse that did the Employee Lifetime Value proposition?

Chad Sowash: Oh, yeah.

Tim Sackett: In that chart that's been stolen by everybody. And everyone's like, oh, I put this together. No, you didn't. We know the first person. So shout out to Maya. To see that, when you take a look at that, it makes so much sense because it's how do we increase this talent from onboarding through the whole entire life cycle of an employee? And again, every single one of those is a talent-related kind of thing. It's performance, it's development, it's retention, it's all of that stuff.

Joel Cheesman: What you're saying sounds very Darwinian to me. And when you say something like recruiting as you know it, is gone in 18 to 36, that's going to get people's attention.

Tim Sackett: Yeah.

Joel Cheesman: And there's a popular adage that AI won't take your job. Someone who knows AI will take your job. But what I'm hearing from you is...

Chad Sowash: That's a wish list.

Joel Cheesman: But what I'm hearing from you is, the meteorite is coming. The T-Rex is not going to learn how to drive a car with opposable thumbs. There's going to be a whole new breed of worker in this space. Say more about that and what you think that looks like.

Tim Sackett: 24 months ago, I think a lot of us felt that way, that you have to know AI because if you don't, then your job's going to go away. That was before the Agenic thing hit and we saw those. And you start to see the agents and you go, oops.

Chad Sowash: Turns out Skynet's here.

Tim Sackett: Maybe we don't need AI the way we think we need AI. Again, I think the technology will evolve so we can have a conversation. Think about the two biggest competencies that we fail at across every function for the most part is leadership and data. And if I can have a real conversation with an agent that's an expert and that can help me be a better leader, that can help me really interpret data across all kinds of spectrums of whatever it might be to make us better, like, okay, yeah. I can be this super 10x kind of person. But do I really need no AI? Not really. I'm going to have an agent that's going to just be able to be in my pocket for that. Whether we call that a co-pilot or an agent or whatever. I mean, everyone's going to have that kind of stuff.

Joel Cheesman: So do new roles come into existence?

Tim Sackett: For sure. Yeah. We don't know what those are, right?

Joel Cheesman: Any predictions on what some of those roles look like?

Chad Sowash: I'd say we never know what those are.

Tim Sackett: Well, no. I gave the one example of this TA thing, right? I always take a look at it. A lot of what I think is older school kind of thing where we get back to the personal connection. I think we've automated so much, not just across TA, but across HR, across employees, that we were like, how fast can we... It's one thing is like, yeah, for HR self-services, it's like, yeah, if I'm at home and I got to figure out my wife just told me she's pregnant and I'm freaking out about what the benefit is or whatever. It's Sunday night at 9:00 PM An HR services bot can give me all that information I need.

Joel Cheesman: Do you think it's fair to say if the current state of recruiting, there is no seat at the table for you, but in this new iteration of recruiting or whatever that looks like, maybe there is a seat at that table?

Tim Sackett: For sure, Well, yeah, I mean, because I think, again, the function of what we know of recruiting today, tactically, all that stuff can be done better by AI on an ongoing basis, 24/7. And by the way, I think I've looked at now 15 different interview AI bots. They're amazing. They interview way better than an average or above average recruiter right now. The thing we don't, again, we get away from the personalization because what we know is candidates will go, well, it seems impersonal, it sucks, right? But then also, like, wait a minute, though, I can get 100% of people through, or now I can only get 3% to 5%.

Tim Sackett: So it's like, so we're missing a lot of personalization stuff where if I'm a TA leader and I'm going to use one of these interview kind of AI bots, it's going to start with a 90-second commercial from me going, hey, this is Tim Sackett, the head of TA for ABC Company, blah, blah, blah. Understand, I know you don't like this. I know you would rather talk with me personally or the hiring manager, but we really want to make sure everybody gets an at-bat. It comes to the plate, gets a chance. Because historically, less than 10% of you would.

Chad Sowash: Yeah, it's a fair shot.

Tim Sackett: But now I'm going to give 100% of you the chance, but here's the technology we have to layer in. But I'm going to also tell you, here's where we're going to lay their human in too, and we're going to let everybody get a shot now. And if I'm a candidate hearing that and then saying, by the way, now you have to go through this seven, eight-minute kind of thing, I'm like, most of them are going to opt in. They're like, for sure I'm going to opt in. I'm going to do that. Versus we just go, hey, meet Jim, the AI bot. And they're just like, ugh. Can we just be better, right? And it's just a little bit of personalization.

Chad Sowash: Yeah. It's setting expectations. We're humans. And we don't know what the expectation is because we've been thrown into a black hole for years. So yes, setting, and I mean, you don't need AI for that, right? You just need to be a human being talking and understanding the candidates need a little expectation.

Tim Sackett: I'm super interested to see as we go through the next 18 to 36 months where companies, because everyone's going to start testing the process. They're going to be flipping on things and automating things, and everyone's going to figure out, oh, you know what, for us having the human here and having the human here works best. And so for somebody else, it might be different. And to see every iteration of that and hear the stories and figure out why does the human work here better than here and all that. I can't wait to see that kind of evolution and testing that's going on.

Joel Cheesman: And Tim, if podcasters and thought leaders aren't replaced in 24 to 36 months...

Chad Sowash: Shut your mouth. Shut your mouth.

Joel Cheesman: Let's hang out and see where we are at that point.

Tim Sackett: For sure.

Joel Cheesman: Thanks for hanging out with us. That has been The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel Cheesman,

Chad Sowash. This has been the Sessions AI Frontline Series.