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Time for ZipRecruiter's CEO to Go?

In this episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, the boys discuss various topics including the Paradox' Analyst Day, the exit of Vonq from the US market, and the success of CV Wallet. They also touch on the news of Rippling's potential $13 billion valuation, the rebranding of Broadbean and Pandologic to Veritone Hire, and the acquisition of Cannabis Temp by Vangst. The hosts also mention the addition of a verified recruiter badge on LinkedIn profiles. The episode concludes with a discussion on the challenges and potential of Veritone Hire and the future of job distribution. In this conversation, Chad and Joel discuss various topics including the consolidation of brands, the potential of AI in the recruitment industry, the challenges of the cannabis market, and the leadership fails of ZipRecruiter, Nike, and Bayer. They also play a game of 'Who'd You Rather' and share their thoughts on recent funding rounds. Overall, the conversation highlights the importance of innovation, adaptability, and effective leadership in today's business landscape.


Joel (00:29.424)

Yeah, two guys who've been through the desert on a horse with no name. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Goldwater Cheeseman.

Chad (00:41.057)

This is Chad, SPF 15, so watch.

Joel (00:44.848)

And on this week's episode, rapid fire, a breakup at zip, and who'd you rather?

Let's do this.

Joel (00:58.736)

How's the desert treating you, Chad? Can we hurry up? The pools and cocktails are calling. Yeah, Phoenix is like Vegas without the drama and the crowds. It's very nice.

Chad (00:59.425)

Can we hurry up? Can we hurry up? I gotta get back to the pool.

Yeah, I got a hot blonde.

It is, yeah. And I've got a hot blonde waiting for me back at the pool. So I'm coming, Julie. I'm coming.

Joel (01:14.704)


Nice, nice. So we're here at Paradox, Analyst Day slash user groups, whatever they call it. They have a certain brand for it. It's basically like users of Paradox coming for stuff. We are here doing a Netflix style series of interviews on AI and I've been blown away by the content. I can't wait to release this to the world. Get excited if you care anything at all about AI and hiring.

Chad (01:27.713)

Innovation Day.

Chad (01:45.217)

Yeah, no, I totally dig it. We get to see a bunch of people and a bunch of brands that we care about. And one of the things I love about going to these types of events is that, you know, they want to show you the innovation and then you get to step back and you get to gauge the clients and say, oh, what do you think about this? Is this something you're going to be able to adopt or, you know, what have you? But also, you know, the vision, things that, you know, they're they're they have in test and beta.

And then just having those discussions with, you know, industry leaders and individuals who use tech on a daily basis, what they give a shit about. And, you know, I got to say most of these companies that we've talked to, these TA leaders are well ahead of the rest of the market. You think you talk about the companies who adopt and they're kind of like they're fast followers. A lot of these companies are, and I am so surprised.

and excited to actually have these conversations. That's cool.

Joel (02:47.888)

Yep. And no spoiler alerts, but introducing change into some of these organizations, a lot of teeth pulling and arm twisting to get some of these changes. But once changes are made, positive outcomes follow. So yeah, I'm excited to get this series out. And you mentioned companies here at Paradox. I'm still trying to track down McDonald's, Shake Shack, and Raising Canes. So far, no luck. I'm looking for...

Chad (03:03.425)


Joel (03:15.76)

I'm looking for coupons, you know me, you know me, Chad.

Chad (03:17.953)

I think they've given them your photo and they're looking out for you as well. So in an entirely different way.

Joel (03:23.76)

Uh huh. Yeah. I'm on the black list at Shake Shack. I'm on the no -go list at, uh, at Raising Canes. I got to talk to JD. JD, hook me up with some more Raising Canes coupons.

Chad (03:32.481)

Yeah. Oh, he's going to do it. He's going to do it. You know what you're not on the blacklist for unless you haven't registered at ChadCheese .com slash free stuff. Free stuff. That's right. Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Oh, some delicious, hazy. Who knows what we're going to send you? You don't even know what we're going to send you. It's going to land on your front door by Aspen Tech Labs. Love those guys. Whiskey, two bottles, two bottles from Tex Kernel.

Joel (03:42.864)

I've registered.

Chad (04:01.057)

One from Joel, one from myself. Love those guys over at Tex kernel. And we did t -shirts. You handed out some t -shirts this week. What was the reaction?

Joel (04:08.72)


Joel (04:14.64)

Very positive. We upgraded the shirt material. It's a little more, at risk of getting canceled, it's slightly more female friendly. It's a little softer without giving too much weakness in the fabric. So I think we did well there. Everyone, maybe it's our age, our demographic, they know the Guns N' Roses influence, so there's definitely some comments about that.

Chad (04:18.753)

It is.

Chad (04:24.481)

Silky. Go yeah.

Chad (04:38.465)

Too easy. Yeah.

Joel (04:41.456)

as excitement, but they like, they like last year was ACDC this year's guns and roses. They like the theme. We'll, we'll keep that rolling. We'll keep that.

Chad (04:49.089)

Well, and thanks to Aaron App, if you take a look at the back of the t -shirt, you'll see a really cool Aaron App logo. They designed it especially for the Chad and Cheese shirt. So right on the back. Then we have, you know, kids, if it's your birthday, you got to actually register so that you can win some rum from Plum. Once again, chadcheese .com slash free. Gotta do it.

Joel (05:00.752)

It's an Aaron Original, that is true. Aaron Original.

Joel (05:07.248)

Oh yeah.

Joel (05:15.376)

Yeah. So the birthdays this week are a big tease because this is an abbreviated version of Chad and cheese because we are on the road and Chad has a blonde, a pool and a cocktail calling his name. But thanks as always to Plum. We will catch up on birthdays next week. Don't worry. We have not forgotten you everybody.

Chad (05:36.609)

But events, we gotta talk about events. We are going to jump, that's right, stratosphere, baby. We're talking about a jump, a leap, yes. Literally jumping off the top of the strat with Matt Bauer, the CEO of OutHire. It's over 800 and I think 50 feet or some shit like that. We're gonna have cameras all over the place. We're gonna have one. We're gonna have a depends camera on Cheeseman. You can nominate a friend, and again, this...

Joel (05:52.656)

out higher.

Joel (05:57.296)

Crazy Aussies.

Joel (06:03.92)

Call it insider trading, but I'm buying shares and depends everybody. You should do the same. It's not just the baby boomers that need them. Yeah.

Chad (06:10.753)

Go to ChadCheese .com. Up top in the header, go ahead and click Jump with us and you can register there. Then we're going to the minus five bar, that's right, Omar's Ice Castle with Diane and Jane from Great People and Omar from JobPixel. It's gonna be a blast. It's gonna be cold, so hopefully you're ready to snuggle, cheeseman. Then last but not least, May 8th.

at the Neon Boneyard. Join us with Plum, where we are going to be basking in the neon lights. Yes, the neon lights, the old lights that they didn't send and recycle. No, they put them down in an elaborate where you can party and enjoy, right? So go to ChadCheese .com slash events and join the wait list there. We would love to see you in Vegas. No matter where it's at, we'd love to see you in Vegas.

Joel (06:53.552)

Uh huh. Make a museum.

Joel (07:06.48)

Good, good God. We are going deep in Vegas everybody. Holy crap, holy crap. Omar's Ice House. I like the sound of that.

Chad (07:12.001)

I gotta say though, I gotta say though, I gotta say though, Michelle over at Plum, she said she really enjoyed the eye poppy sound effect when we talked about neon nights. So just so you know, just so you know.

Joel (07:16.368)


Mm -hmm.

Joel (07:23.28)


Joel (07:28.72)

We aim to please. We aim to please. In fact, I'll do one up and give her a step, bro.

I love our sponsors. I love our sponsors.

Chad (07:38.305)

Love it, love it. Let's do it.

Chad (07:44.385)


Joel (07:46.256)

All right. This week we had a lot of shout out a newsy topics. We're going to combine them both. We're calling it rapid fire. I'm going to read you the headlines from the week. Chad will comment on the ones that stood out to him, starting with sir Richard and Beverly's CV wallet just raised half a million dollars. By the way, I love a headline that says raised 0 .5 million dollars. Like the 0 .5 is really cute. Like

0 .5 probably fell out of their Maserati and he just decided to call it a funding round. Anyway, their total now raised is $2 million and the valuation of the company is now at $13 million. Congratulations to them. Firing Squad Casualty, if you will, Draftboard has raised $4 million. I invite you to go listen to that if you haven't. He did not fare well, but otherwise some investors did think.

Think enough of the company to drop $4 million. Rippling, uh, deals favorite, uh, competitors and talks to raise it a $13 billion valuation. Broadbean and Panda logic will now be known as Veritone higher and weed job site. Vankst has acquired cannabis temp. Oh, and LinkedIn is adding a verified recruiter badge to profile picks a lot to digest here, Chad. What stood out to you from this week's.

Chad (08:54.785)

Mm -hmm.

Joel (09:08.944)

flurry of news.

Chad (09:10.849)

Who, did you mention Vonk in that one? Are we gonna talk about Vonk in this one?

Joel (09:15.408)

I probably miss Vonk, yeah. Too much sun in my eyes here in Phoenix. I might have missed that. Yes, Vonk has officially, and you have some inside information on this, I think, has exited America. Did not work out for them.

Chad (09:29.953)

Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's just go ahead and hit that one up first. So Vonk pulls out of the U S in 2021, the European team over at Vonk started building a team in the U S and today there is literally no trace of that team left. A couple of classic points here. Number one, Vonk's last CEO wasn't from this industry and that generally doesn't bode well for a lot of startups. And number two, Vonk is a Dutch company trying to invade the U S. We

praised Vonk in 2021 for the move to an experienced strategically aligned staff here in the US, but European leadership just couldn't get out of the damned way. The hardest issue for me is that the integrations into the platforms, the ISIMs and smart recruiters, pretty big integrations. You can't cultivate a relationship of that size from across the pond. And also, you know, their revenue in

The US is poultry compared to what it is in Europe. And I'm an advisor and investor with Sonic jobs, a UK startup that's been around for about seven years. Sonic wanted to make the leap over the pond in the US and they have successfully in less less time than than Vonk has blown away their UK revenues in the US. Why? The US is a huge pot of gold, kids.

UK smaller pot of gold. Yes, but smaller pot of gold in VONC's case They're all over Europe and to be quite frank We've had discussions with many companies in Europe who don't even know who the hell VONC is so I think they have issues in Europe number one and number two if they try to come back and from my understanding they're gonna try to come back to the US if they try to come back to the US if

European leadership doesn't get the hell out of the way. They're going to fare pretty much the same, I feel, that they did this time.

Joel (11:34.544)

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. The penicillin worked on the bonk, uh, in, in America. Uh, it didn't work out for, for new Amsterdam. Uh, and it didn't work out for another Dutch company, uh, in Vonk. Look, the business is the, the model is still there. The tech is still there. Uh, I'll, I'll give them one benefit of the doubt. I like the new leadership. Uh, I think the refocus, uh, is, is.

Chad (11:37.377)

What do you think?

Chad (12:02.881)

They don't have a CEO yet though.

Joel (12:04.464)

Well, Bill Fisher, right? I mean, he's, is he just sort of I CEO? So he, they're waiting. Okay. I enter him CEO. All right. Um, it's a wait and see for me. Uh, I'm not going to hold my breath that they're going to crush it in America or come back anytime soon. Look, you can run a company from Europe and still have market share in America. Maybe the model isn't to have a whole team over here. Uh, maybe it's just build great tech, integrate it and hope that it works.

Chad (12:06.913)

No, no, they're waiting. It's yeah. He's like in turn interim. They're gonna they're gonna get an entirely new dude

Joel (12:33.04)

It works for a lot of companies. It hasn't worked for VONC so far, but yeah, you're in sync with some of their leadership more than I am. And if you're not optimistic, then I don't have much reason to be optimistic either.

Chad (12:47.713)

Yeah, I like them a lot. The problem is it's hard when a company is your baby, right? And obviously they did, you know, Arno is gone, the CEO is gone, but that's not the entirety of the leadership. Yeah, we do. I mean, yeah, but that's not the entirety of the leadership. You've got to get somebody who's in there who's strong, who understands great market penetration, and hopefully that'll happen. Let's go ahead and get to...

Joel (12:56.496)

Mm -hmm.

Joel (13:02.928)

Who we like, who we like. Yeah.

Chad (13:15.329)

a more fun 0 .5 million CV wallet. I'm an investor and an advisor over there as well. A lot of news coming from people I know. What are the takeaways from the eRecruitment Congress with Bill Bormans that you actually pointed out on a podcast earlier this week is that jobs will find you. CV wallet embodies that statement.

and is the newest and most advanced iteration of that tech. I'm really excited for Richard and Beverly and the team and noticed two things. Number one, reason for the quick 48 hour raise. They were growing so fast, they needed to get support people in, right? And then the amount. They didn't take too much, right? And I'm gonna give you some insider information. I'm gonna give you some insider information. They just took the tip, just the tip.

Joel (13:59.76)

Is that right? Okay.

Joel (14:04.432)

No. Okay. Give it to us. Don't breach your contract. Don't breach your agreement. Don't breach your agreement. I don't want, I don't want sir Richard mad at us. Okay. All right. Okay. Well, okay. The boss.

Chad (14:13.345)

No, no, I'm good. I'm good. I cleared this. I cleared this with Beverly. It's all good. So, CV Wallet launched March 1st of this year and they hit $1 million in ARR in 25 days. They're on pace to hit $2 million by next week and they're eyeing about $10 million in ARR by the end of the year. They're not even going to get a full 12 months.

and they're going to be on pace for 10 million in ARR. That to me is a big fucking applause.

Joel (14:42.992)


Joel (14:50.064)

Wow. I feel about CV Wallet sort of like I do every other crypto. I kind of get it, but I kind of, no, okay. I kind of get it, but I don't.

Chad (14:59.745)

They're not crypto. Stop it.

Joel (15:09.104)

break it down for me. It's profiles that are on the blockchain. So it's like a passport for multiple platforms to share resume assessment data, maybe background checks or eventually background checks. And how are they making money? What's the revenue model?

Chad (15:26.017)

So here's the thing, because this is rapid fire, I've already talked to Richard and we're gonna get him on the show and we're gonna run down all of those things. I know, but I don't wanna take a half an hour to try to explain to you infrastructure, all this other fun stuff. It's not easy stuff, not easy stuff.

Joel (15:32.879)

Oh. Oh.

Joel (15:40.304)

All right, well Richard works for me. Richard works for me. Can we get him to do the interview from the Maserati? Can he be in the Maserati while we're talking to him? Okay.

Chad (15:46.529)


Chad (15:51.297)

No, because there's, I don't know, maybe because they've got some really good noise dampening in a Maserati. The next news from Veritone, Veritone Hire, super human hiring is here again, apparently. We talked about them having all the pieces and the question is, can they pull all of those pieces together in time? Because the velocity of tech...

Joel (15:57.168)

Okay, all right. Moving on.

Chad (16:17.729)

today is moving so fast, is it going to pass them up before they actually get the puzzle put together? That's the hard part. But what's most interesting to me about this company isn't the AI, it's the ability to provide basic job distribution and more advanced performance driven job distribution. Because not all companies are ready for performance based jobs. And if you are serving global clients, you have to understand that performance based ads,

aren't as well adopted across the pond, right? So they have both, they can do both. So they're ready for that transition. Then think of the prospect of using Wade and Wendy AI for pre -screening an application. It's a practical posting play combined with heightened candidate experience and a better way to collect data. The question is, again, can the maestro make this orchestra play the right tune? If so, I think it'll be a hell of a symphony.

Joel (16:55.568)

Mm -hmm.

Joel (17:15.92)

How do you feel about, because Broadbean is a long time brand, I think mostly positive and Pando's been built last 10 some years, the brand there. Do you think dumping those is a mistake or do you think it just is something that had to be done and Wade and Wendy as well, but much less so.

Chad (17:26.817)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (17:33.313)

No, I think, yeah, I think it's something that had to be done and it's gonna be happening for the most part behind the scenes. When you need a big brand, right, these are job distribution that's happening pretty much out of applicant tracking systems and then you've got performance based that's happening through ad agencies, right? So you don't really have to have a great brand for McDonald's or for Lowe's or Lockheed Martin, right? Just the...

Joel (17:59.568)

Yeah, it's not a consumer brand, right? So, yeah.

Chad (18:01.633)

Yeah, yeah, you don't need to have that. So I think it's smart. Go ahead and consolidate that. Save money on even the thought of marketing or keeping three brands and whatnot and three websites actually running. So, yeah, I think it's smart. But once again, that's all going to be water under the bridge if they just can't get this thing moving fast enough.

Joel (18:24.624)

Yeah, I really like the pieces that they're pulling together here. I like the leadership. I know they made some hard decisions. It's the era of AI and if this company can't make it happen in AI when it's an AI first company, like it's, it's, it's set to win. Like you're going to have to try hard to fuck this up based on what they've, they've done. I think the brand change was necessary. Consolidated all put it under one umbrella. Uh, so the, the, the market understands and they're.

Chad (18:28.609)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel (18:53.136)

It's not like the extension of the brand is confusing. I think everyone, Veritone Hire, I think most Pando people understand the acquisition, Broadbean again, there's not much connection to the brand. So yeah, I think we're both rooting for Veritone. They are a sponsor, full disclosure. So obviously we like them to win, but it's a good story, great technology. And it's a technology that was general in how it came to our space as opposed to our space and then trying to go general. So it's really exciting to have.

that dynamic in our space. So I think we should all be kind of at least rooting for them to shake things up and be successful.

Chad (19:30.945)

Yeah. And I think being here in paradox, we were talking about AI a lot, right? And at the end of the day, this is all about outcomes. What's the problem that you're trying to fix with whatever solution you have in place? But you've got to remember that, again, the velocity of tech today, you're going to have to have AI in your back pocket. It might not be necessary right now, but if you're not building for tomorrow, you're going to be dead kids.

Joel (19:35.856)

Mm -hmm.

Joel (19:58.16)

Yep. Any other news items catch your attention?

Chad (20:02.817)

Yeah, the whole draft board thing still just blows my mind. Nobody can get referrals to actually work inside a company. Now we're going to try to do it outside of a company. I mean, it's just for me, there's so many PE VC investors who they have so much money that they've been holding onto and they literally, they're just looking to spend it on anything. Again, love the guys, the team over there.

Joel (20:10.352)

Not in this way, yeah.

Chad (20:30.432)

They realize they don't have the background in this space, although they're going to push forward and they should. And they've got 4 million plus reasons to be able to do that. But again, we know where this ends.

Joel (20:43.984)

it has ended historically. Doesn't mean it'll end that way in the future, but odds are. History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure as hell does rhyme. Any take on the weed acquisition?

Chad (20:48.225)

get my crystal ball out. Crystal ball.

Chad (20:57.473)

And weed is interesting because it is such a big business. We should be hearing more about this, right? There's a huge, huge market. If you go to, I mean, we're here in Arizona, there's a huge market here. There's a huge market in pretty much the entire West Coast, right? I think what we're going to see, and hopefully what we're gonna see is, at least with these laws, they're gonna move forward. I mean, it's crazy how we're dragging,

Joel (21:24.048)


Chad (21:26.209)

uh, you know, uh, rovers is weighed out and then Arizona is going back to 1864, but, oh, you can go ahead and have weed. I mean, it's just, the signals are so mixed, but when it comes to weed, that's all about money, right? And we know here in America, politics is about what? It's about the green. It's about the lobbyists. It's about the green.

Joel (21:46.96)

cash. Yeah. And it is about the green in terms of until, until the federal government observes weed as a legal business, it's gotta be really hard to acquire companies and merge companies in this space. I mean, they don't have bank accounts, right? Like let alone like, let me buy a company rule of law. Do lawyers get involved with that? If it's legal business, like there's gotta be so many hurdles to making shit like this happen that, uh,

The fact that it happened at all is pretty surprising to me. I know Vance is one of the more high profile. I said high profile. I said high, high profile. And they've had the most money. It's a good business, but it's also not. It hasn't really blown up until it's federally legal, until Philip Morris and Reynolds get into it and start buying up all these companies and brands. I think it's just going to be in the status quo.

world of nothingness for the most part. My guess is Cannabas Temp, not exactly a brand name. I'm sure it was like some dudes that were high in the fucking basement like, let's sell the company. And it was so.

Chad (22:46.337)

For me though.

Chad (22:56.993)

I got to say that, you know, for me, and this is my personal investment strategy, I look long -term and you look for this thing to pop. And I just think that within the next, you know, five, 10 years, it's going to pop and it's going to be federal. And so, yeah, I think they're making a very smart bet on the market and what's going to happen in about 10 years. As we sit back and wait, I think anybody who buys into it personally,

Joel (23:05.584)

Mm -hmm.

Joel (23:23.024)


Chad (23:26.145)

I think it's smart.

Joel (23:28.624)

When this thing becomes legitimized, it's going to be like Katie bar the door. There's going to be startups galore, money galore. Yeah. Big tobacco is going to get into it. Like we'll be talking about it probably on a weekly basis, but not so much now.

Chad (23:32.993)

Skyrocket. Yeah.

Chad (23:40.129)

Oh yeah. And you'll be taking, you'll be taking more five milligram THC at the sphere.

Joel (23:44.624)

I don't know what you're talking about, Chad.

Chad (23:51.681)

Oh my God, that was funny.

Joel (23:53.136)

All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about who'd you rather.

Joel (24:03.056)

All right, Chad, are you ready for a game of who'd you rather? That's right, we take two companies that have recently gotten funding. I read a summary and Chad and I decide who we'd rather.

All right, Chad, first up we have Paraform. They've raised $3 .6 million in funding. The San Fran based startup targets laid off recruiters starting their own businesses, connecting them with startups for talent sourcing with a subscription and success fee model. Paraform aims to expand globally and into new job markets just beyond tech roles into others using, you guessed it, AI. And in this corner,

We have Take Two AI. New York City -based Take Two AI has raised $3 million in seed funding with participation from tech stars and HR leaders from Visa, Disney, HP, and Google. The startup aims to help companies generate tailor -made simulations of real -world sales scenarios to vet job applicants for skills, behavioral attributes, and culture fit.

hoping to minimize miss hires and improving retention. That is Paraform versus Take Two Chad. Who'd you rather?

Chad (25:27.297)

Well, I'm going to start off with Take Two AI. So let me start out by saying, and I'm very biased when it comes to this because I advise Tadio, also a performance -based job simulation platform. But can the candidate actually perform the tasks necessary for the job? Resumes can't provide actual performance data, right? Yeah, and someone might've been the best salesperson on an already shitty team. But what happens if that...

Joel (25:52.912)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (25:54.625)

not so shitty salesperson comes to a team of high performers. You just don't know, right? So not all numbers are relative, yet performance through simulations can scale and they can really help with the hiring process. And I liken this to, because I've been in many sales interviews, sell this pen, right? You're in an interview and they do what? They sell this pen, right? This is even better because...

Joel (26:19.184)

Sell me this pit.

Chad (26:20.513)

Yeah, you can do that at scale, right? And you can also have the individual go through a CRM and go through all those different things. So I mean, that to me, it makes more sense and it's more practical. Now, Paraform, what the fuck do they actually need AI for this? I mean, this is ridiculous. It's a side hustle platform for recruiters. For me, it's way too small. I would look at it.

kind of side eye and then walk past, I'm going to take to AI, sell me this pen all day.

Joel (26:54.352)

All right. I love it. So I agree with Paraform. This is bounty jobs. This is, this has been done for decades. It hasn't hit a marketplace for recruiters. We're in a world where we're talking about fewer recruiters. So the idea of launching a recruiting marketplace seems a little bit slow growth or no growth to me. So that one is a real, that's a real no -go for me. That's a, that's a skank in the corner that I'm not.

paying any attention to on Hooger rather. Now the take two, uh, interesting name. Uh, it was a band from the nineties also, uh, from like a Brit pop band. Anyway, enough about enough about my past musical career. Um, my thing with sales is the trend of AI AIing. Is that a word of using AI to automate calls outreach to people? Um,

Chad (27:47.873)

Sure, why not.

Joel (27:53.424)

and then give them to someone who was already experienced in sales. Yes, hot leads. I've scheduled a demo, but we've heard, we've seen the air .ai demo of real calls, companies like Apple and Tesla are using these voice calls basically to try to sell computers and cars. So I don't see a huge company in training salespeople in this way. However,

Chad (27:56.289)

Hot leads. Hot leads.

Joel (28:22.32)

I do appreciate that the human touch in sales, the more you automate it is going to be important. So training like real people, salespeople that are, that are selling SaaS businesses and products that are six figure deals that you can't do with an automated voice or video, uh, in, in the process. So for me, like, I don't think it's a huge win. I love, uh, the video. If you, if, if you're interested in this business, uh, tech stars, there's a video of the presentation or demo.

which is pretty cool. They have some big heavy hitters behind this company. So for those reasons, it's kind of an easy layup of who I would rather and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna side with you and go with take two as who I'd rather. That's been another game of who'd you rather. Chad, we're gonna take another break and talk about some leadership fails.

Joel (29:24.4)

Chad, it was a bad week for leadership in the world of business. First, ZipRecruiter's COO, Kasim Safi, is leaving after serving in the role for just under three years. Nike CEO, John Donahoe, is blaming remote work for the company falling behind on innovation, saying that it's tough to be disruptive when people are working from home. And Bayer's...

Chad (29:28.193)

Hmm. Yeah.

Joel (29:52.784)

CEO aims to save $2 .15 billion by get this eliminating middle managers and most of the company's corporate handbook. Employees will self -manage in dynamic shared ownership teams, whatever that means, focusing on projects for 90 day stretches. Chad, Zip, Nike and Bayer aren't exactly winning this week. What are your thoughts?

Chad (30:24.161)

Zip hasn't been winning for a while and I don't know why the CEO left. I don't know why he left, but why not the CEO? Because think about it. Ian's vision was pretty tight before the IPO. Before the IPO, Zip, they weren't as sloppy as they are now. I mean, this is just horrible. They have had an amazing product.

Joel (30:36.112)


Chad (30:51.297)

that was slightly ahead of everybody else. I'm not going to say they were incredibly innovative, but they were on the road, right? Yeah, they had an amazing product. They were slightly ahead of everybody else. They were putting tons of cash into AI and R &D in Israel, right? And they were delivering great results since the IPO. And again, we've talked about this before. Sometimes CEOs are good to a certain level, right?

Joel (30:58.576)

near their lane.

Chad (31:19.681)

And then they just have to know, they have to self identify, they have to pick themselves out, right? Ian, after the IPO, it just seems like this organization has fallen incredibly flat and they're starting to get lapped by a bunch of startups that are out there right now. And that's the unfortunate part. So yeah, I mean, what do you think? I know asking for Ian's head isn't great, but you know, when...

Joel (31:36.464)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (31:49.313)

The organization is in the dumper for God's sakes since IPO, I don't know what to do.

Joel (31:58.416)

Uh, it's a hot take, uh, calling for Ian to step down. That's for sure. We have our, we have our YouTube short, uh, for the week for sure on that one. Um, I, I, CEOs are, it's hard to dislodge them. Um, but the, if the stock doesn't turn around soon, there's going to be rumblings and look, the COO leaving any, any, any C -suite employee that leaves. It's not good.

Unless they've been there for 20 years, they have a succession plan. They've been like grooming a six. Like we've talked about ice Sims, you know, CEO jump inch, like people, when they leave like this, it's bad. And the trend is when they leave more people leave the company goes through worse time. So this does not bode well for, for zip recruiter, whether or not Ian needs to step down. I don't know. Uh, uh, Kaseem was.

Chad (32:29.505)


Chad (32:41.857)


Joel (32:54.704)

this he was in marketing when he came in, I think five years ago, he became the chief marketing officer. So he actually over oversaw probably a lot of the cool marketing initiatives that we know and love from the, from those days at Zip Recruiter guy became COO. So he, he wasn't, uh, you know, we brought him in, it didn't work out. He's gone. He's been with the company for a while. He knew what he was getting into. I'm sure they felt really comfortable putting, putting him in that position, but look, the,

Company's going nowhere. There's no, there's little to no growth. I think they've, uh, they've barely moved headcount since he took over, uh, two, two, two years and eight months ago, the stock is going sideways. He actually dumped, uh, 33 ,000 shares of the stock in December of last year. So he's kind of known the writing on the wall for a while. He's dumping shares, he's jumping ship and it is not a good sign.

Chad (33:32.609)


Joel (33:49.168)

for ZipRecruiter that this shit is going down. It's a bad situation at ZipRecruiter, for sure.

Chad (33:54.785)

Well, and then you've got a great brand like Nike and you've got a total dipshit of a CEO, John Donahoe on Friday who blamed remote workers, as you'd said, for falling behind on innovation, saying it's tough to be disruptive from home. The problem is here, kids, we have a bunch of prehistoric fucking CEOs that are out there who don't understand that leadership isn't standing over somebody's shoulder, right? You're going to have to evolve.

You're going to have to learn how to lead from afar. And anybody who actually has been through any type of leadership courses or mentoring or anything like that understands that you have to be diplomatic. You have to work with empathy. But you have project deadlines and goals for a reason, right? You need to start managing toward that. Not to mention, you know, we're really early, to be quite frank, in the remote work kind of, you know, time of our life.

We're getting there, but we're not going to get there. Nike's not going to get there with the CEO with this type of mindset because he doesn't understand that he needs to evolve. And only, only, only when he evolves will the rest of his teams and his staff not only evolve, but they will become disruptive. They will regain the ability to be disruptive.

Joel (35:18.544)

Yeah. Nike, a very successful company historically is in a slow period, if you will. The stock is down about 8 % in the last six months. China's slowing for them. Growing markets historically are slowing down. And when things get bad, leadership tends to point fingers, try to find an escape valve.

Chad (35:42.305)

Not me. Not me.

Joel (35:45.2)

to explain what's going on. And an easy explanation is, well, there's no innovation because everyone's remote. You know who's been kicking Nike's butt for the last few years? Little company called Hoka and another company that makes shoes called On. Now I'm not a shoe -y guy, but I think that's how you pronounce those two. You know who has remote work? Hoka and On. So don't come to me saying,

We can't innovate because of remote workers when the two companies that have been kicking your ass for the past few years have remote work. Figure it out. Quit pointing fingers. You work for Nike. Put your big boy pants on. Put your Air Jordans on and figure that shit out. Period.

Chad (36:23.585)

Uh huh.

Chad (36:30.881)

Fire yourself.

Now when it comes to...

Joel (36:34.096)

I need the company that made aspirin because I need an aspirin after that, after those hot takes. Let's go to Bayer.

Chad (36:37.441)

Yes, yes, yes. So, so, so, so Bayeris really interesting because this just feels like a lazy restructure. Obviously, there was a lot of company, there was a lot of bloat and you see that in organizations. It is, you know, the CEO's job to manage that bloat, right? You have people in place to be able to know what's happening in the organization. Apparently, they got together and said, you know what, we're really bloated.

Joel (36:55.792)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (37:04.097)

And our processes are slowing us down, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That's all well and good. A restructure makes sense. But this just seems fucking lazy. We're just going to go ahead and take an entire swath just right out. OK, who are we going to take? Are we going to take these guys and we're going to throw them right out the window? Will it work? I had no clue. When you have that much bloat and I would assume that's that's the that's the problem here. Two things going to happen. Number one, you want to try to move.

Joel (37:21.52)


Chad (37:34.081)

processes faster, so you don't want all those bottlenecks in the hierarchy. Number one. Number two, saving that much money over a billion dollars, that's short -term good for the bottom.

Joel (37:48.688)

Uh huh. Well, one man's lazy could be another man's bold, Chad.

Chad (37:56.385)

Could be. It could be.

Joel (37:58.704)

So I mentioned Nike stock being down 8 % in the last six months. Care to take a guess on how much Bayer stock is down in the last six months? It begins with a four and ends with a zero. That's right, 40 % down in the last six months as a pharmaceutical company. I don't know if you've read Chad, but people are getting older and taking more drugs. And if you can't make a pharmaceutical company successful, well, I can't really help you. I love the fact...

Chad (38:07.201)


Joel (38:24.848)

I do want to love this. I do want to love it. It's such a big swing that you kind of got to love it. A company with a hundred thousand employees is going to do something like this. The guy's comment about the employee handbook is literally more pages than war and peace. That's a problem. And I know the Germans love their orders and their instruction books.

Chad (38:44.033)

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Process. Yes.

Joel (38:51.024)

Maybe take a page from the Swedes and make a little more picture pages in your instruction book than what the Germans have done. So I want to love this, but it reeks of holy shit. The board wants my head share. Hell shareholders want my head. I'm just going to dump a bunch of employees and say, we're making a huge change. And I'm going to pray, pray that it, that it, that it keeps the keeps me in my job and saves the company. Otherwise, this is a huge swing. It's either going out of the park.

Chad (39:06.081)

Mm -hmm.

Joel (39:21.264)

or he's going back to the dugout and into the parking lot and he's done. But this is three companies, Zip, Nike and Bayer, that have really, really done some weird shit. And while all this is happening, Chad, I'll remind you, Art Zeal and Scott Gutz are still employed as CEOs. We out!

Chad (39:43.169)

Wookie out.


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