Cha-ching! Just when you thought more money couldn't come into workforce tech, something else knocks your socks off.
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah. Do not violate COVID curfew rules in the Philippines, everybody. What's up boys and girls? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel "my infrastructure needs rebuilding" Cheeseman.
And I'm Chad" I did not eat the hot chicken" Sowash.
On this week show Phenom makes it rain. Uber is in a world of pain and Atlanta's loss is Denver's gain. And the rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain.
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Joel (1m 51s):
And speaking of dinner.
Chad (1m 52s):
Joel (1m 53s):
Stay away from the extra hot chicken. I tell ya, by the way, I'm going to need to violate some Filipino curfew laws. If I'm going to work off what I ate in Nashville this week.
Chad (2m 3s):
Shout out to Joel's anus.
Joel (2m 6s):
And you thought it was hot going in. Yeah, we went to took the kids, just me and the kids. And did Nashville. Did a Johnny Cash museum, the zoo and you and the big kids. Me and the big kids. Yeah, not the little guy. He stayed home with mom and we went to Prince's Nashville Hot Chicken. And Prince's is the OG the original, the story is he pissed off, his wife once and she made super hot chicken. And he's like, this is the best chicken I've ever had. And thus Nashville Hot Chicken was born.
Chad (2m 40s):
I don't do that. That's not happening. But I did have actually, coincidentally, we didn't plan this. Julie and I, we, I mean, we're pretty much vaccinated up. So we were like, fuck this, we're getting out of the house and took a long weekend, had a condo in Nashville, just a walk away from downtown. To say right downtown and just had a blast, enjoyed ourselves, just being able to get out of the house. I'm so ready to live my vaccinated life.
Joel (3m 14s):
Yeah. Nash-Vegas is such a great like staycation destination for Hoosiers. It's like a three, four hour drive. You feel like you're in, you know, different, different country there on the South. People are nice. Although the food isn't so nice. We actually funny story. I, we went up to the counter at Prince's and I said, yeah, give me, give me the extra hot. And she goes, have you ever been here before? I said, no, I haven't. And she said, well, our extra hot is everybody else's triple X. You might want to start with medium. And I said, I think I can do hot. So she brought out some hot and I could handle it. I thought I could anyway, I did, I did finish it, but it was rather warm.
Joel (3m 55s):
But it was, it was a funny encounter. Like, have you ever been here before?
Chad (3m 59s):
You ain't from around here, are you boy? Yeah.
Joel (4m 3s):
You sound like a Yankee.
Chad (4m 4s):
Yes. And I'm not ready for that chicken. Shout out to a old friend. I haven't talked to him in a while. Seth Fight, who was a Group VP of talent over at Charter Communications, not a small organization. Hoping to actually get set on, to talk about Spectrum's new minimum wage, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago, not too much in some of the new Covid business practices and procedures. And those types of things.
Joel (4m 32s):
Speaking of large organizations, shout out to Amazon and the union vote that is happening as we speak, we should know early next week, whether or not Amazon will be unionizing or not.
Chad (4m 43s):
Joel (4m 45s):
Where's your money? Where's your money? You're betting on the union?
Chad (4m 48s):
I am, I am going with my heart and what we should be doing and going with collective, you know, so. Yes, yes. That's what I'm, that's what I'm going for.
Joel (4m 57s):
I think only half that could vote, actually did vote. So it's going to be hard. Read that what you will.
Chad (5m 4s):
That's going to be hard, a big shout out to Alexandra Burger or an AMS. Jessica Benjamin from App Cast and friend of the show, a Lynn Bailey from Intel. Thanks for listening and engaging with all of these stupid discussions. Lady, ladies, ladies, we appreciate it.
Joel (5m 24s):
Nice! Shout out to millennials. Yeah. You'll you'll never hear me say that.
Chad (5m 28s):
Joel (5m 29s):
So a new new survey by Prudential this week says that one third of millennials intend to seek a new job when the pandemic ends, so say goodbye to a third of your millennials everybody. They're going elsewhere,
Chad (5m 42s):
But then you barely get that internal mobility plan fucking locked in, that's all I got to say.
Joel (5m 47s):
How is that retention strategy work in now because the kids are leaving?
Chad (5m 52s):
You ain't kidding. Okay. So, so some insider baseball here, LinkedIn and Indeed had subtle changes to their apply. Okay?
Joel (6m 3s):
Chad (6m 3s):
And really what this means is they changed their apply button. LinkedIn's apply, button no longer says easy apply, it just says apply now. So why the change? Well, because of all the garbage content that doesn't allow anyone to easily apply. So instead of LinkedIn making the move for better content and a better experience, what do they do? Let's just go ahead and change the button. Yeah. Let's let's not clean up the garbage heap. Let's just change the button.Fucking idiots.
Joel (6m 35s):
All right. So let me get this straight. The innovation at LinkedIn is defined as going from easy apply to LinkedIn apply.
Chad (6m 42s):
No, it's just apply now.
Joel (6m 44s):
Chad (6m 45s):
Just apply now on. On the other hand, Indeed, jazzed up they're easy to apply button on the two pain posting to read Apply with Indeed. So instead of just saying, Easy Apply, they're continuing to jam the brand into user's mind every step of the way. I, again, I'm not a huge fan of Indeed's experience overall. I mean, from a branding standpoint. Yeah. Slap that, slap that logo on everything you got.
Joel (7m 17s):
And, and speaking of jamming the brand, my last shout out goes to Indeed as well, who you remember bought Shift out of the UK back in 2019. Well shift is now drum roll, please. Indeed Flex. How sexy is that?
Chad (7m 34s):
Who didn't see that coming? We didn't see that coming. Yeah. Okay. So nobody's suprised here.
Joel (7m 42s):
It's a branded house.
Chad (7m 44s):
Nobody's surprised here kids. So I've got a couple of podcasts recommendations, and then we can just rip off the topics. First and foremost, our friend, you might remember him from My Career Fit, Gordon Collier. You remember him? He has a new podcast called The Riff Radio Show. So he came on Firing Squad at 2019. This show has nothing to do with the industry. It is just like cool. Gen Xer music shit.
Joel (8m 11s):
Yeah it's good. Yeah,
Chad (8m 12s):
Exactly. His show is on Spotify. It's totally legit. If you're an X-er it's, it's a must listen. And it's an entirely new way to leverage Spotify's music. So you actually have all of Spotify's music category and the way that he's actually built his podcast pulls in the actual music content, the actual tracks that are on Spotify. It is cool as hell. So check that out again. It's called the Riff Radio Show and the one more new podcast just dropped, coolest podcast out there. I'm telling you other than Chad and Cheese , it's called the Cult Brand Secrets, probably the best brand and marketing podcast out there.
Chad (8m 59s):
You can check it out at Cult Brand Secrets, wherever you listen to podcast, or just go to cultbrandsecrets.com.
Joel (9m 6s):
Colt Brand sounds so familiar. Yeah.
Chad (9m 11s):
Some bald dude named Chris Neeland yeah. He's the host.
Joel (9m 15s):
Has he left Canada yet? Is that why he's <inaudible> with a podcast?
Chad (9m 20s):
I think, I think he should though, because they'll get the shot faster.
Joel (9m 23s):
Yeah. That is, that is true. That is true.
Chad (9m 25s):
Joel (9m 28s):
Money, money, money. Let's let's rock out with our look, learn, rock out. Our boy, George Larocque produces the money report, I guess, is what I'm going to call it.
Chad (9m 43s):
The Money Shot Report.
Joel (9m 45s):
So Q1 of this year was global work tech VC's biggest quarter ever. Of course, they'd all been doing this since 2017, but still it's a big number. It was basically half in one quarter, what all of last year was. Some specifics here, average or equal out about 2.5, 7 billion in VCs across 90 deals happening in 16 countries and across 24 sub categories in work tech, there were seven unicorns, which means companies valued at a billion dollars or more. Those included Better Up, Ginger, Lattice, Modern Health, Next Think, Papaya Global.
Joel (10m 28s):
That's a new one on me and Persesonio. Q1 was the biggest quarter ever as I said, and interest in investment work, tech reflects a resounding level of interest in the changing future of work and the next wave of innovation that's now upon us as we get out of pandemic hell.
Chad (10m 46s):
Yes, yes. And notice none of those unicorns. I believe none of those unicorns are actually in the TA space. They're on the human capital management side of the house. It's interesting because if you take a look at the actual deals that have done, you can take a look at the actual money. I think a third TA was a third of the size of that, of HCM, right? So still huge deals going to human capital management side of the house. So that questions, and we'll talk about this with Phenom next, where all the talent acquisition platform types of unicorns. Is this space even ripe for unicorns?
Joel (11m 28s):
Buy the rumor, sell the news, I guess, in some cases. So you had pandemic fever, every everything was remote. Everything was stay at home. Everything was mental health. Everything was managing employees virtually and you saw the money go in and a huge way. I mean, money just jumped right to that space. We see a huge increase. My prediction. And I think we're getting sowing the seeds of that now is that TA will be the big winner going into the future quarters of this year and probably into next year, because as the world is opening up as money is flooding, the system, people are going to need to hire folks and money is going to flow into TA technology is my prediction.
Chad (12m 9s):
Whew. Wow. That's an expectation right there, Cheeseman. Yeah, I don't think so. I think the money is going to continue to stay on the backend, because again, we're talking about millennials wanting to leave and companies wanting to be able to have better engagement and better pay systems and all those things. Once you actually have the talent, how do you keep the talent? How do you keep them happy? How do you, how do you actually make it easier for them to join communities within your organization? Those types of things. So I think HCM will still easily outpace talent acquisition throughout the rest of the year. Now here's the question.
Chad (12m 49s):
Yep. Will anybody even get close to the amount of deals that the United States have? I mean, cumulatively, the rest of the world didn't even come close to the amount that the U S had. We had 52 deals, had 13 and in the UK, Spain had 5. And I think that was kind of like a blip in the radar and a big part of that was the number two size to deal from Job and Talent, who are in our space. Right.
Joel (13m 19s):
And still have the worst name. I digress.
Chad (13m 22s):
I think it's fine. I think it's fine. But, but overall, yeah, I think, it's pretty cool, but I still believe that HCM is going to carry the year.
Joel (13m 30s):
Can we agree with that everybody's getting paid.
Chad (13m 33s):
Everybody's getting paid.
Joel (13m 35s):
Bud is getting paid, baby.
Chad (13m 36s):
And that Phenom isn't getting paid.
Joel (13m 38s):
Holy shit, Phenom People, I guess they're just Phenom now, I can't keep up with all the names that they go by. So they, they raised a hundred million duckets in Series D this week, to scale globally and continue development on its artificial intelligence driven talent hiring platform. The company last raised 30 million in a Series C in January of 2020, which was led by WestBridge capital. It's now raised $161 million total in venture capital since its founding in 2010, Phenom is used by 25,000 recruiters, talent marketers and hiring managers in 2020 leading to 2 million people being hired on this platform.
Joel (14m 21s):
Last year, I have a little bit of a soft spot for these guys. So historically that I think the two co-founders, they started by building mobile sites for CareerBuilder. You may or may not remember that they, the contract ran out, I think. And they created, Imomentous, which was the second worst name after Job and Talent. And they were just doing mobile sites that grew into Phenom, changed the name. Now it's all candidate experience marketing or whatever they're calling it and it's paying off, but these guys have grown organically, really happy for them. Great guys, and good on them.
Chad (14m 60s):
Yeah. I love Philly. And the people at Phenom have got to be dancing on the ceiling after this one. Phenom estimates that COVID-19 has had a tremendous impact on the global job market with the prospect of over 100 million workers, switching careers by 2030. Phenom CEO, Mahe Bayireddi believes quote, "the golden age of HR and talent is coming." And I tell you what the guys getting cash. I hate the label. I hate the talent experience management, just because we have way too many fucking labels as it is.
Chad (15m 45s):
Obviously this has not impeded their progress, but I love they pretty much hinted that they're going to go IPO. The big question is, you know, where does this money go? They've made three acquisitions since September of 2020. And I'm going to predict, I mean, they focus on hyper-growth through sales, marketing, partnership development. The biggest problem I do see is now they have to force their way into partnerships through client acquisition. And I say that because they're becoming such a threat to more of the core platforms. Not to mention what do you, what do you think the possibility of Phenom, turning into a Radiancy or Symphony Talent tech focused agency?
Chad (16m 32s):
I mean, which would be a huge threat to the recruitment ad agencies, right? Do you think that they might go that way? Just kind of the whole, the whole experience piece. It just, it almost feels like that's where they're going.
Joel (16m 43s):
If we look at this historically, you know, we were saying in 2003, like what, what great, how great it would be to be the ATS. You own everything. It's so hard to leave. Job boards come and go and we we've continued this whole like plat one platform to rule them all. Who's going to own the company career site. Who's going to own that one-stop shop. And, to me, it's sort of this battle between the established ATSs and the industry, and then you have these up and then you have sort of, the layers of that that came around, you mentioned Radiancy, Phenom, et cetera. And then now you have this up and coming group, which let's agree, everyone thinks, you know, the Seek Outs, the Olivia's of the world are all hoping to be platformed similarly to how ATS are platformed.
Joel (17m 33s):
So I don't know how the hell this whole thing's going to shake out. I think there'll be multiple winners and just the best companies will win. But for sure, at some point you stop being a friend and you become a frenemy, and then eventually you become an enemy. And I think Phenom is probably in that frenemy zone right now and at risk of becoming an enemy to quite a few players. And we'll see how that shakes out.
Chad (18m 0s):
Yeah you get that kind of money, you have no other choice than to obviously build. Right. Become bigger, take more market.
Joel (18m 8s):
They're going to be fine. A third of millennials are leaving. A third of millennials, need jobs, come on under millions of drop in the bucket.
Chad (18m 17s):
Again. But, again, they're either IPO or they're bought by SAP, you know? So the threat for the core platforms, the applicant tracking systems and all the CRMs that are out there, all obviously CRMs it's going to be a frenemy kind of scenario.
Joel (18m 37s):
Yeah. And, you know, we talked about iCIMS going public a couple of weeks ago, I think, it's a rumor still, but you got to think that if iCIMS goes and they have a really successful wall street entry that you're going to see more ATSs go public. You're going to see the iCIMS mantises of the world. You're going to see a flood of it. Did I say iMomentous? Holy shit. I hope you got that on tape. I did. Yeah. See, I basically live in 2010. Anyway, if iCIMS falls on its face, it'll be really bad, but I think there'll be fine.
Chad (19m 15s):
I don't think they're going to have a problem with that, but guess who else lives in 2010?
Joel (19m 20s):
So please tell me it's Dice.
Chad (19m 22s):
Art Zeal, CEO of Dice, yes, yes, yes. Quote from Art Zeal and from some article, I can't remember where I found it, but "we are 100% tech focused and have created a platform that allows for end-to-end engagement between recruiters and technologists, ultimately speeding up the vetting process, recruiting time to hire" a blah, blah, blah. He's talking about new profiles, updated this, new lipstick on that pig. I mean, what the fuck is there anything of actual use here that's new and going to help Dice move forward and anything that's even close to innovative?
Joel (20m 4s):
I mean, I think, you know, like the credit to them is there at least moving a little bit away from, we're just a job board. You look at Upwork, you look at Fiverr, or you look at marketplaces that are, that are booming from a shareholder value perspective. And Dice is trying to move into that position. Like they keep losing money. They're not growing. I mean, it's a hail Mary pass. It's nothing to what, nothing compared to what their competitors are doing. I mean, GitHub is in and of itself, destroying companies like Dice, real good tech people don't hang out on job boards. They don't hang out and message with recruiters.
Joel (20m 44s):
Like none of this feels fresh. None of it new, it feels like the hail Mary pass, at the end of a game.
Chad (20m 52s):
None of it solves the problem for the companies who are looking for the types of talent that Dice says they're creating new profiles for. I mean, Woven teams, Codified, Hacker Rank, I mean, helping the talent, get the skills they need to play. Building coding, communities, mentoring, and skilling up the players. Dice is so out of their depth, when it comes to the actual need of the market. It feels like they're sprucing up the house for sale, but nobody wants to buy their painted cardboard box. It just, it just falls so flat. And how much money are they spending on this?
Chad (21m 31s):
That's the big question. DHI guys, what are you wasting money on?
Joel (21m 36s):
Yeah. Yeah. Some, so some of the numbers here that you look up, they have, they have 9 million candidate profiles still. They have over 5,000 enterprise subscribers that are using the service. Income of $19.4 million. That's down, that's down 17% from 2019. DHI as a whole reported 33.2 million in revenue, which was down 12% year on year from Q1, I believe in 2021. So the numbers suck. They're not going to get better. And again, hail Mary, we'll see what happens. Their stock has been bouncing over the past few months. So some people on wall street and some shareholders do believe in the plan.
Joel (22m 18s):
Chad (22m 18s):
So Art 2010 called, and they want their go to market strategy back buddy.
Joel (22m 24s):
Art, come on the show, man, convince us that what you're doing is innovative and that you're on the right track. You always are invited on the Chad and Cheese podcast
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Chad (23m 23s):
Okay. Before we get into the next topic, I've got to know your thoughts on major league baseball, moving their all-star game from Georgia to Colorado. What do you think about this? It's a political move, right? But it's a business move. Yeah.
Joel (23m 39s):
Business move. And it's also, you know, you look at a league that is very diverse. I mean, baseball, probably more than any other sport, at least in our country, I mean soccer maybe, but that's not really a sport in our country, but for baseball, I mean, it's probably the most diverse set of employees being the players and to make statements like this, it seems a little late to the game because football has sort of been carrying the baton of equality for quite a while, but it's a great move. Look, I think, you know, you and I debate, you know, is it, is it government, you know, who should be sort of making these moves and to see the market forces, private industry make statements like this, I think is awesome.
Joel (24m 23s):
I think it's, it's fantastic. And obviously voting rights in light of the 2020 election is going to be a hot topic going into the next presidential, the next interim interim 2022. We see States like Kentucky of all places become the easiest place to vote, in light of Georgia. So baseball made a statement and you're looking at certain States, you know, make statements around, we're making it easier or tougher. Politics is always going to sort of rear its ugly head in most things that we do and in life. So to me, like for sports to make political statements, that's something that's been going on my whole life. And I applaud baseball for doing this and good for Colorado for being able to snag up, you know, that banner from them and host the game, you know, this is a, I think a hundred million dollars that's going to be lost by Atlanta and the state of Georgia because of the decision that they made to make voting tougher.
Chad (25m 21s):
I hate it for the people because this was six white guys in a room signing the legislation, right, and they're going to take the brunt of it. And to watch Coke and Delta come out after this signing instead of before, you know, I think that rings hollow more than anything because those are huge brands in Georgia. And I hate, I hate that they didn't come out and actually say, what they said afterwards, right? This is this. Now let's hope this has some type of impact on all the other States that they see what's happening. But from an optic standpoint, from a brand standpoint, also from an employment standpoint, this I think is a negative for their brand.
Chad (26m 9s):
If they came out beforehand and they supported the people and actually trying to broaden up the opportunity to vote, would have been different.
Joel (26m 18s):
Yeah. It's actually, I mean, it feels like a real, a big step back because you had Stacey Abrams and I mean, Georgia basically delivered two democratic senators on the back. Yeah. So now you see, yeah, this is the reaction and a baseball made a statement and you know, good on them. But I think, I think Georgia is trending in the right way in terms of making voting more this is sort of the last, the last grasp or of the establishment. Maybe, hopefully things will change because certainly it felt that way in the presidential race in 2020. Yeah. Delta, you mentioned also I was impressed, it was a little bit off brand may because you don't really expect Delta to say, Hey, you need to treat people with respect.
Joel (27m 7s):
You're a big Delta guy, so I won't get too much into that. But I think Delta. Yeah. So Delta I'm in there. You probably got this too. Right. Your sky miles emails. And so they sent out an email about
Chad (27m 17s):
That was United.
Joel (27m 19s):
Was it United?
Chad (27m 20s):
It was United.
Joel (27m 21s):
Oh fuck. All right. Well, should we even talk about it?
Chad (27m 24s):
Joel (27m 25s):
Okay. So, so sticking with airlines. So United sent me an email. I'm sure I wasn't the only one, but they're really embracing diversity. So in this email that they sent a quote, "we're creating a more diverse, equitable and inclusive workplace in world. They will train, they're dedicated to training 5,000 new pilots by 2030, at least half of whom will be women and people of color. They're also going to remove some of the financial barriers of entry through partnering with, I believe JP Morgan Chase by providing millions of dollars in scholarship commitments, as well as student loans that ensure applicants will not be turned away solely because they cannot afford to enroll."
Joel (28m 6s):
So applause, a big applause there for United for being on the right side of diversity.
Chad (28m 13s):
Yeah. Well, I have to say that it's definitely gonna be hard. I appreciate them putting the stake in the ground, but many commercial pilots actually come from the military. It's like the easy button. They have the experience, flight time, the whole ball of wax, right. But the military leans heavily male and only about 20% of the current active military reserves and national guard are female. So the airlines are already pulling from a male heavy pool of talent. I also went on a pilotinstitute.com and found out that there are only about 7% of females who are categorized currently, as pilot only.
Chad (28m 56s):
So I think, you know, DEI, as we talk about all the time is the new AI everybody's talking about it, but you United airlines seems to truly be putting, their stake in the ground.
Joel (29m 8s):
Yeah. And you know, little teaser, we talked to Jackie Clayton over at Seek Out and yeah, she kinda got a laugh out of, you know, like metropolitan areas, that will say companies, there will say, you know, we're going to increase our black hiring by 30% or to 30% of our workforce. And 5% of the whole state, our whole city, is actually African American. So companies make these big, these big bold statements without really sort of thinking through the numbers. And let's be honest, who in 2030 is going to go to United and say, Oh yeah. Did you guys fulfill that commitment to 50 or 5,000 new pilots that are of color or are female?
Joel (29m 52s):
Probably not. So it's easy to make that claim in 2021. We'll see if anyone holds it to hold them to it in 2030.
Chad (29m 59s):
Oh, we're going to talk to them in 2030 on the podcast. That's what we're going to do.
Joel (30m 4s):
We're still doing this in 2030 you have permission to shoot me, anybody, everybody, five years just put me out of my misery.
Chad (30m 12s):
Well, they're there also opening a pilot training Academy in Arizona, and we talk about this all the time is I don't know why companies don't have their own training? Whether it's working directly with colleges and universities, working together with certification organizations, tech schools, whatever it is, doesn't matter. Working with them to work with the talent, to be ready to hire on day one and, and pay for that training. Right? These guys are actually building manufacturing, pilots talent through this school that will become United pilots.
Chad (30m 54s):
They'll I'm sure be put on contract. I mean, it's the same kind of thing that you see in the military. This should be what all smart companies are doing. But what they love doing is looking at Uncle Sam and saying, Hey, when are you going to build that a skills gap program that you've been talking about forever? And then they lean on corporate welfare. This