Vegas Chaos Unleashed

Live(ish) from the Gem booth at UNLEASH Vegas—powered by caffeine, chaos, and questionable judgment—the boys duct-tape together an episode that stumbles through everything from Warren Buffett’s recruiting wisdom (??) to StackOne stacking cash like it’s Monopoly night.

Joel is dazed and confused over Appcast with Recruitics news (sorry, not sorry), taking the usual swing at ZipRecruiter, and somehow drag Indeed into the dumpster fire, even though they weren’t invited. It’s unfiltered, unscripted, and probably unwise. Sleep-deprived? Definitely. Worth it? Debatable.

Tune in for the mess. We’ll pretend to be professionals again next week. Maybe.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel : We're giving our listeners a rare glimpse into the green room as we chat. We should preface this week's show with: we're totally unprepared. We've been recording for like, how many hours? Ten?

Chad : Hours, hours.

Joel : Ten hours?

Chad : Yes.

Joel : So you're in for a treat of mismanagement and confusion this week.

Chad : You lucky bastards.

Joel : Lucky bastards, you.

Chad : We're rolling?

Joel : You're rolling? Okay.

Chad : Ready?

Joel : You need to hear it. There you go. You ready to do this?

Chad : Yeah.

Joel : Let me apologize in advance, everybody.

Podcast Intro: Come on. Just slam an iron brew and let's do this, boys. Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Joel : Oh, yeah. Talking shit till the tariffs kick in.

Chad : Yes.

Joel : And they throw us into Alcatraz. Hey, boys and girls. It's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel the Oracle Cheesman.

Chad : And this is Chad, tired as fuck, Sowash.

Joel : And on this episode, StackOne raises Appcast searches and LinkedIn gets creative. Let's do this.

Chad : Creative.

Joel : What you got?

Chad : Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay, so first and foremost, just so that we get this out of the way really quick.

Joel : Yep.

Chad : Mark Coleman, I apologize. Yes, kids. The very first thing that happened, I came down to check out day zero of Unleash here in Vegas. Saw our friend Mark Coleman. Went to shake his hand, and he was talking to two guys. So, I was just kind of trying to be stealthy. He put his arm behind his back to kind of shake my hand. I didn't see that he had coffee.

Joel : A little reach around?

Chad : Yeah, he did.

Joel : A little reach around for you.

Chad : Mark's great with the reach around. [laughter]

Joel : The Irish reach around. [laughter]

Chad : So, I go to shake his hand, and I just give him kind of like a little wiggle. Yeah, he had coffee, and it went all over the front of his white shirt.

Joel : Oh, my God.

Chad : Yeah, so sorry, Mark. Didn't mean that, and my bad.

Joel : So, I was at the Las Vegas Knights Edmonton Oilers game one playoff series round two last night.

Chad : Now, I heard because Omar was not happy.

Joel : Yeah, I ditched...

Chad : You didn't make it to family dinner.

Joel : I ditched dinner. I ditched barbecue, which is pretty unlike me.

Chad : I was there. You remember that, Omar.

Joel : Yeah, I ditched barbecue.

Chad : That's not easy.

Joel : It was a great game. Shout-out to Ben Sesser and BrightHire and our girl Megan at Marriott, not Marriott. Marriott. Marriott.

Chad : Chariot Marriott. [laughter]

Joel : Marriott like chariot. And I'm proud to say there was no booing by the American crowd, mostly American crowd, when the Canadian National Anthem played. I know that's a thing now with my Canadian relatives and in-laws.

Chad : In Boston, it's a thing. I mean, come on.

Joel : I was crossing my fingers like, please don't boo. Please don't boo. And they did. Quite a show. You get your money's worth before the puck even drops. It's a show. It's a Vegas show before the game even starts. So, shout-out to the Vegas Knights. It was a good time. Now, you think as I do that Vegas is a little slow right now. And we've seen death of Vegas videos on social.

Chad : It is.

Joel : And I will... But it's not dead, but it's definitely about 10% to 15% less people.

Chad : It's not dead. Yeah, I think, well, I mean, and the people who, again, you'd said, are here made this commitment a year ago, right?

Joel : Yep.

Chad : So, they were going to send the team just to be able to make sure they got the ROI that they could get out of this. But, yeah, I mean, we've been here since Saturday. Saturday was kind of okay, but it wasn't like Vegas tourism trap shit,

Joel : Right. You weren't swamped.

Chad : And then today, I mean, everything, lines were short. I mean, we even went to...

Joel : Getting a taxi is easy.

Chad : Oh, yeah. We went to Area 15. We went to the Mob Museum. We did all the touristy things, and we got in easy, right? So, yes, I'm not saying that Vegas is dead, but it's having problems right now.

Joel : It's having problems.

Chad : Unlike my shout-out, and do we talk about shoutouts? By Kiora. By Kiora, that's right. By our Canadian friends.

Joel : Text recruiting made simple.

Chad : Canadian friends. Yes. So, you might have heard of these guys, StackOne. They are probably, I would say, one of the smartest startups that are out there. We see StackOne, Merge, Combo, they're all integration platforms. What is the hardest thing to do when you are a startup?

Joel : And the most important.

Chad : It is, yes, it's integrating to these bigger platforms, because if you don't integrate to these bigger platforms, guess what?

Joel : You're invisible.

Chad : You get zero fucking sales. That's right. See that right there, kids? Zero fucking sales. So, yeah, very smart. $20 million in Series A.

Joel : That'll buy a lot of beer.

Chad : I love it. I love it. Love those guys over there. Love what they're doing, and hopefully this will propel them.

Joel : Every startup we talk to, when they ask, what should we be doing, it's integrate. And these guys are an easy button.

Chad : It's a cheat code, man.

Joel : It's a cheat code.

Chad : It's a total cheat code.

Joel : Easy button, getting into all the systems that you need to get into. I like that shout-out, and I think there are some really good companies around that space and offering some pretty good services.

Chad : I have heard stories about Merge. This is secondhand, but vendors that I've actually talked to said, hey, look, that sounds great. It's an easy button. And they're like, Merge isn't really that great at integration. And I almost wonder if they're trying to go, and this is also a problem with many startups, is they try to open the TAM up way too far instead of focusing on a specific specialty and then growing out of that landing in that specialty and expanding out of that specialty.

Joel : Because they integrate on everything. Like Salesforce and Slack.

Chad : It's too much. It's too much. So hopefully StackOne's not doing that.

Joel : Stay focused. Stay focused, Johnny.

Chad : Stay focused, Padawan.

Joel : Stay focused, Johnny. Well, Chad, my shout-out is really heartfelt because I want to let you know that not all heroes wear capes, Chad. You probably heard that our beloved Warren Buffett, American icon, is stepping down as CEO of...

Chad : He deserves it.

Joel : 94 years old. Still sharp as a tack. Anyway, at 94, he made a special... Let me say this. The shout-out is not for his investment prowess. It's not for his all-shucks, common-sense, Midwestern values. It's not just the nice guy that he is, and stories of that are everywhere. It's because the man is a hero for all of us that don't exercise every day, that aren't eating salads every day. The man made it to 94, sharp as a tack.

Chad : Good for him, yeah.

Joel : He admittedly drinks four Cokes a day. Not the diet stuff. Not the zero is my hero. The full. He has McDonald's for breakfast every morning. He loves Dairy Queen. He loves Utz chips. His comment, and this is great, Chad, he said, the age group with the lowest fatality rate are six-year-olds in America. So why not eat like a six-year-old? Shout-out to you, Warren Buffett. Shout-out to you. In my next fast-food meal, probably In-N-Out as we walk out of this expo hall, I'm going to be thinking about the Oracle of Omaha.

Chad : I think being a billionaire has something to do with life expectancy as well. You have...

Joel : You shut your mouth. [laughter]

Chad : Amazing health care, right? Because you can afford all of that. So he probably goes to the... He probably gets a workup and a colonoscopy every three months or some shit like that. And good for him. If it works, it works.

Joel : Maybe good genes. Maybe good genes.

Chad : If it works, it works. I mean, he's got to have good genes. So at the end of the day, it's all good.

Joel : We should give him some free shit.

Chad : You know who? Everybody loves free shit.

Joel : Yes, they do.

Chad : Everybody loves...

Joel : Even Warren Buffett.

Chad : Yes. And if you like free shit, and of course you like free shit, you just go to chadcheese.com/free where you can get T-shirts from our friends over at Aaron App. It's got this lovely Guns N' Roses montage. But it's Chad and Cheese on the front. If you like craft beer, and who doesn't like craft beer, kids? We're going to send you a box of craft beer, one a month, to a lucky listener. That is coming from our friends over at Aspen Tech Labs, the data geeks at Aspen Tech Labs. Then we've got whiskey. We've got double cock happening. We've got chicken cock, baby, coming to your front door. [laughter]

Joel : Double cock surprise. [laughter]

Chad : Two bottles of chicken cock. One for each hand. Cock for each hand. That's coming from our friends at VanHack. More Canadians. I love those guys. And if it is your birthday, you've got to have a little rum from Plum. Beautiful rum. Only if it's your birthday, then you get put in there. But you've got to go to chadcheese.com/free. Register, and you might win some stuff.

Joel : Still amazed that there aren't people that are signed up. People will be like, I love the show. You guys are awesome.

Chad : Go to free.

Joel : You sign up for free stuff? What's that?

Chad : Go to free stuff.

Joel : Give me a break.

Chad : It's really easy.

Joel : It's free. And you'll get something, in most cases.

Chad : You'll at least get a T-shirt.

Joel : You should get something from us. Yes. All right, so we're going to pass birthdays. We'll save those for next week.

Chad : Pass birthdays, yes.

Joel : But that doesn't mean that Plum's sponsorship is any less important to us.

Chad : Oh, no. Of course not. Of course not.

Joel : Let's go to topics, shall we? Topics! All right, guys. LinkedIn is in the news. Their Wire program, now called BrandLink, lets brands place video ads in premium publisher and influencer content. Video consumption on the platform is up 36% year over year, with video posts driving 1.4x more standard ads. More ads, Chad. That means more money.

Chad : Makes sense.

Joel : Selected creators earn ad revenue, paving the way for more video content on LinkedIn. Paying creators for their content, Chad. Sounds familiar.

Chad : Problem here, though, is there's bias because they say selective creators, right? So what's the vetting process? How are people getting in there? I mean, it's, yeah, but that's bullshit. I mean, especially when you're talking about some influencers who have a lower follower base because they're more specific. That's total bullshit. So it's like, what LinkedIn needs to do, I love all this data. Duh. Video works. No shit. But at the end of the day, it's like, how are you getting to those individuals, right? And who are you allowing in? I do notice, which I love, there are shit tons of females doing videos in those feeds. So that's pretty awesome because usually everything is so male-dominated, but females are getting a lot, a lot of time on there.

Joel : As they should.

Chad : I love it.

Joel : And next time JT joins us, we'll need to ask her her opinion of this creator ad revenue.

Chad : It's going in the right direction. Let's just say that.

Joel : I mean, look, it's great that platforms are finally getting on board with paying people that are creating content that is driving engagement and usage of their platform. It just kind of makes some sense, in my opinion. Now, we have some more LinkedIn news. Our friend Max Armbruster had a post this week. He said, I need a reality check from my LinkedIn network. I'm hiring for remote roles, and here's what's happening. Product support analyst. He's paying €73 per application. Account manager, €43 per application. And solutions architect, a whopping $133, euros, excuse me, per application. Is it just me or is this the LinkedIn norm now? Any thoughts on Max's distaste for what he's paying for applications on LinkedIn?

Chad : I think it is the norm now, which is, I mean, whether you like the answer or not, the problem is those aren't, you don't know if those are qualified candidates, right? So if it was like more of a CPQA, a cost per qualified applicant scenario, I mean, those aren't bad numbers, right? And then you just serve up specific slates. So I think that model is incredibly smart only if it's qualified applicants. Paying that much for just an applicant, I mean, any Tom, Dick, or Harry who they don't meet the requirements is total bullshit. But if they're going toward, I'm sure they are, if they're hitting the qualifications, that just makes sense. Indeed, or Indeed, Indeed's really shitty at matching. LinkedIn should be better at matching because they've got more fucking data and context on who you're connected to, right? And the shit that they put out there. So I would expect LinkedIn to be able to match so much better than what they do. I know they're getting into "AI matching". We'll see how that goes. But at the end of the day, yes, I think that if they're qualified applicants, $73 is fucking cheap to actually find somebody to go toward hire.

Joel : I love that Indeed wasn't even in the show notes and they made it into the show. I'm sorry, Indeed. I tried one week to not have you guys be on. Here's my solution for Max. He needs to join the creator monetization program and get money for his content that he can use to lower the price of his cost per applications. There you go, Max. Problem solved. Problem solved. Let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll talk about Appcast's search ads.

Joel : And we're back, everybody. All right, Appcast has launched Appcast Search Ads, the recruitment industry's first programmatic search advertising solution. We'll have to fact check that one, but Appcast wouldn't lie to us, would they? It's integrated into their Appcast One talent engagement platform, building on Appcast's decade-long expertise in programmatic job board advertising. This tool targets high-intent candidates for hard-to-fill roles with employers paying only for completed applications. That's music to your ears, I'm sure.

Joel : Key benefits include 20% more total applications, 15% lower costs for qualified candidates, and 25% reduced time to fill. That's per the company. The solution offers full funnel tracking from click to hire, conversion-focused optimization, and prioritized ad spend on critical roles, enhancing ROI and efficiency in recruitment marketing. A lot of hype words in that. Didn't have time to run it through the objective filter, but Chad, what are your thoughts on Appcast search ads?

Chad : So I read it, and it was like, what the fuck does this mean, right? It's like, I really wish that some of these companies would get out of the buzzword bingo bullshit and just put it in.

Joel : Buzzword bingo bullshit. That's good.

Chad : That's good, right?

Joel : Yeah, that's good.

Chad : Put it into somewhat layman's terms to help people understand, and I think that we get kind of like forest for the trees, and we drink too much of our own damn Kool-Aid sometimes. This was not an easy – I read it three fucking times, and I'm like, what does this thing do?

Joel : And how is it different, and how is it the first ever?

Chad : How is it the first, right? But one of the things that strikes me kind of odd is I see Appcast moving way too far down funnel, right? And they talk about how they're getting the higher signals from the applicant tracking system. If I was a company and I was allowing somebody to have that data, it's nobody's fucking business outside of my company to know who the fuck I hired, right? Now, if you're working with a staffing agency, and again, a traditional model that's been around for how many goddamn years, we need to evolve the model. I do love – they have, I think, a setup to be able to get into CPQA and actually give qualified applicants and get some really good cash out of that without overextending, right? But first and foremost, message is shit. Second, they're going way too far down funnel and over freaking architecting shit. They need to fix the issue that's in the room right now, and that's the qualified applicant. I don't pay you for hires. I pay you for qualified applicants. Give me fucking qualified applicants.

Joel : So our friend Alexander Tchaikovsky had an interesting take on this problem and solution by saying that the automated job apply problem has hit a problematic standpoint to where there needs to be some friction between the applicant and the apply. In other words, if there's payment, there's going to be friction around the application and the automated application process.

Chad : I don't think so.

Joel : Let me quote Alex's problem. Unveiled last week, Recruitix supply anywhere strongly confirms what many thought leaders in the recruiting have recognized as a significant industry problem, automated applications. Product promises to help reduce unqualified applicants and combat fake applications. It introduces a form of positive friction, a term gaining traction. You must confirm your phone number before applying.

Chad : That's Recruitix.

Joel : Oh, shit.

Chad : To continue though because it's a good wrap into what's happening. So this is, I mean, two entirely different things. You've got an ad network and then now you've got this process methodology that is automated applications.

Joel : So basically, let me wake up for a second. I needed a venti coffee. So Appcast is basically creating an Indeed pay-per-click model.

Chad : Well, it's search, yeah, ad search.

Joel : Okay. And Recruitix is adding friction to the apply process. So we're in on Recruitix, not so much on Appcast.

Chad : Well, I don't think Recruitix is really adding friction. They're adding validation into it, right? So there are some validating measures. Are you qualified here, here, and here, right? So I don't know that I'm allowed to actually say who the technology is behind this, but they've been building this stuff for a very long time. It is agentic, and it's incredibly smart. I think it's smart, but again, I hope, much like I said with Appcast, that Recruitix actually focuses on asking those questions that are necessary to see if they actually match up with the requirements and then charging at a CPQA rate as opposed to CPC and not playing that stupid cost-per-hire bullshit. So, yeah.

Joel : Recruitix, Appcast, two different things.

Chad : Two entirely different things.

Joel : My bad. That's my bad, Chad. Eight years.

Chad : Hey, it's all good. We got the news out there.

Joel : I got a mulligan every now and then. There you go. All right, let's take another quick break. I'll grab a coffee, or not, because we're on video. You won't see that I have a coffee. But anyway, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll talk about ZipRecruiter. All right, Chad, ZipRecruiter, once a top U.S. Job board, faces a crisis with revenue down to $111 million from $240 million. An $11 million Q4 2024 loss in clients dropping from 170,000 to 58,000. Yikes. Its reliance on small businesses, which if you've listened to our interview with small business recently, you know they're kind of hurting a little bit.

Chad : Yes.

Joel : Anyway, its reliance on small businesses, failure to win enterprise clients, something you are hot on, and a 74% price hike have fueled a stock plunge to $5 to $6 from a $32.90 high. Competitors like LinkedIn and Indeed fare better. Experts predict a buyout. Point at this guy, buyout. Likely buy Recruit Holdings, who called it. That's right. Our friends at AIM are calling it too, though antitrust rules are unclear.

Chad : I think they quoted you.

Joel : To survive. They probably did, if they're smart. ZipRecruiter must diversify and go private to escape public market pressure. Stop me if you've heard this one before, Chad. Is ZipRecruiter finally in its final throes of legitimacy in business?

Chad : So I'm just going to say this. Hey, ZipRecruiter board. Hey, are you out there? It's just us. It's just us.

Joel : Let me check if it's on. It's coming through.

Chad : It's just us. Fire Ian. What the fuck is going on here? So we've talked about this before, and even, I mean, years ago. I mean, we're probably talking about 2019 pre-COVID. We were talking about how ZipRecruiter had to go upstream to enterprise because they were not recession-proof, number one, with small business, right? And they needed to at least try to get more into enterprise. Well, they have failed that. Then they went IPO. They had this amazing opportunity to literally do CPQA, qualified applicants before everybody else because they had the tech built. They had a whole fucking AI center in Israel, right? They were on the path. They started tightening the belt for IPO so that they look good, they look pretty, right? And then what happened? They went off the fucking rails. They were on path. So every startup that is out there today, focus, focus, focus. And if you're looking to go for that next round of funding or maybe, who knows, going to actually get acquired or something like that, you still have to focus on the mission because if you don't do that, you're gonna go off the fucking rails. ZipRecruiter was one of the darlings of our fucking industry, and look at where they are today.

Joel : Focus is the key word here.

Chad : Fuck.

Joel : And small business accounts for 85% of the hiring that happens in the United States. ZipRecruiter did a fantastic way of branding themselves as the small business option.

Chad : Spending a lot of money to do it. Yeah.

Joel : Spending a lot of money to do it. But if you were a bar, dry cleaner, a small business, you knew ZipRecruiter and you used it. The minute they started talking IPO, AI, Phil, expand the TAM. We're enterprise. We're everything to everybody. The wheels fell off and they never came back on. And they never are going to come back on.

Chad : They're not.

Joel : They should be praying to the gods of job boards that Recruit Holdings comes down and writes a check and folds them into the glass door. Workopolis just have all that. Because they own Workopolis, so they can like, have a whole, like, just do it. It's over. ZipRecruiter's not here, by the way, as far as I know. So, yeah, a little tired of stopping my foot on this, but it is what it is. I'm ready for my dad joke.

Chad : No.

Joel : And it's awful, so. It's awful. I just googled dad joke and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna tell you what it is, and it's awful. Are you ready?

Chad : It's literally about 90% always awful.

Joel : How long has the show been? Hold on, 30 minutes. Perfect.

Chad : What a good one.

Joel : Our listeners will forgive us because it's so short. All right. Chad, you ready for this?

Chad : Yes.

Joel : What do you call a fish wearing a bow tie? What do you call a fish wearing a bow tie?

Chad : Bow fish.

Joel : So fish decayed it. [laughter]

Chad : That was good.

Joel : Live from Vegas, we are at the Jim booth. Thanks to them for letting us...

Chad : Thanks, Jim!

Joel : Stick around for a while. We appreciate it. Until next week, when we're back on track. Chad's in Portugal, I think.

Chad : Yes!

Joel : Until then, we out.

Chad : We out!

Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast. The Chad. The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And, not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper Jack. Swiss. So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out!