VR, Virtual Dumping, and a Foursome



If you were building a perfect podcast episode, what ingredients would you include? An acquisition? Some VR? And a side of offshoring? Well, today’s your lucky day, because Lieven and the boys cover all that and much more on The Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Europe.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

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INTRO (9s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Joel (30s):

Oh yeah. Tesla delivered over 340,000 vehicles in the third quarter and only four of them ended up in Lieven's driveway. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast, does Europe. I'm your co-host Joel "Mussolina" Cheeseman. This


Chad (47s):

Is Chad "Holy Manchester, Batman" Sowash.


Lieven (51s):

And Lieven"still recovering from Rika's birthday party last weekend" Van Nieuwenhuyze


Joel (55s):

On this episode, Adecco keeps it virtually real in Belgium, an acquisition four way. And would you like a sight of offshoring with that? Let's do this.


Chad (1m 5s):

All right guys. Did you see the Man U versus Man City match over the weekend? I mean it was nine goals, four goals by Man City in the first half. No goals by Man U by the way. But I mean it was what in the US, what we call a shellacking.


Joel (1m 22s):

Hey Chad, you'll be surprised. I watched football in Europe this weekend. It was the Vikings versus the Saints and what real football is American football and God bless us for taking it to London. That's a real sport people. You're welcome and a great game with a double joint at the end.


Chad (1m 41s):

Anybody who loves football would've loved that game. Usually what happens is we send the Jacksonville Jaguars over there and they have some shitty performance. But this is great even did you watch either one of those?


Lieven (1m 53s):

Nope. Never. I tried to avoid it.


Joel (1m 55s):

What I do love about them is they're sprinkled with every Jersey imaginable in the NFL. Like there's no super loyalty to the same. Obviously people go over and watch the game, but everyone has their own player team and they just come out to watch some American football.


Lieven (2m 11s):

I've basically, no fucking clue what you're talking about.


Chad (2m 15s):

You had an interesting weekend Lieven.


Lieven (2m 17s):

Yeah, I did actually. I did. You know, Rika who's been the show sometimes before the CEO of House of HR give a pretty spectacular birthday party. She's going to become 50 soon. If maybe I shouldn't be mentioning this, but sorry again. Amazing party and I'm still trying to recover. No,


Joel (2m 35s):

That's cool. She doesn't look a day over 29.


Lieven (2m 37s):

Never. Exactly.


Chad (2m 38s):

Shout outs.


Joel (2m 40s):

Shout outs everybody.


Lieven (2m 41s):

My shout out is to on Annelies van Ruymbeke. You don't know who Annelies van Ruymbeke? I didn't know either until recently.


Joel (2m 48s):

Rum Springer. What?


Lieven (2m 50s):

Something like that. Ruymbeke Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Flemish. So she's a business developer at SAP, what's it called? Success factors. And she noticed I was going to join you in Unleash or Unleash and she invited me for champagne tasting, after the Congress, which I think is a very good idea cuz you think being Chief Digital and invited to champagne tastings all the time, that's not true. You think people would invite me constantly. They don't. So it's a very good idea from


Joel (3m 20s):

Chad. Did you get an invite to this thing?


Chad (3m 21s):

I, yeah, I did not get an invite.


Joel (3m 23s):

Let me get this straight. She heard you were gonna be there from our show. Invited you but not us? See that's some bullshit right there. I drink champagne.


Lieven (3m 34s):

I can only state the facts


Chad (3m 36s):

It alcohol? Of course you drink it.


Lieven (3m 39s):

No, but so shoutout Louise! Thanks a lot. And we'll meet in Paris and if you want to invite Chad and Joel, then basically you can, I guess


Joel (3m 47s):

Can you crash a champagne party or is that really a no no in Europe?


Lieven (3m 51s):

Oh definitely. We do it all the time.


Joel (3m 53s):

I got a shoutout for going back to England. Our friends at CV Library, one of the most prominent and oldest job boards in the UK. It's been around since, wait for it, the year 2000. They've acquired programmatic platform. Brilliant Jobs. Can you think of a better British company name than Brilliant Jobs?


Chad (4m 12s):

Smashing!


Joel (4m 13s):

I guess Jolly Jobs would be better, but the move which follows the likes of Indeed acquiring Click IQ means the red coats are also coming to America and the rest of the world. The new product will be initially launched in October through CV Libraries growing US business Resume Library because we don't say CV in the states. People don't even know what that is before being rolled out in other markets over the next 12 months and they're not done. CV Library says it has over 9 million US dollars set aside for acquisition and platform transformation over the next two years. Sounds like we'll be watching Resume Library here in the states for years to come Chad.


Chad (4m 58s):

That's interesting. I've never heard of brilliant. Whatever they call it programmatic jobs, whatever it is. That's interesting. Is Brilliant Jobs, is that actually a European company or is that a US company?


Joel (5m 12s):

Yes, I believe it's the UK as well. The benefit of the programmatic businesses you can, you know, wash and rinse and repeat into any general area you want to because you don't have to actually build customers and job posting content. You can just open shop in other countries. So the job board buying a programmatic solution is sort of gaining steam. It certainly has in the US I don't think even knew what programmatic was when we first started the show.


Lieven (5m 39s):

I learned it all from you guys.


Joel (5m 41s):

Appcast got acquired, Click IQ before that Brilliant Jobs. So it's, you know, the days of back filling it with Indeed and growing into areas is gone. You gotta have your own shit and programmatic is a way to do that. Yeah,


Chad (5m 54s):

I think the only way right now programmatic is really getting used is through organizations like Talent Nexus in the UK is where they're actually being led in to to organizations as consultants. So much like we've seen recruitment advertising for years. Instead of just saying, here's my stuff, throw it in your platform, you actually have a consultant kind of like baby step you in. So it'll be it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting.


Joel (6m 21s):

It's not a House of HRs bucket of money, but $9 million is nice for some acquisitions I guess.


Lieven (6m 27s):

Yeah, but with an inflation and inflation of 10% a bucket, it's is getting smaller.


Joel (6m 33s):

It's true.


Chad (6m 34s):

Yeah. Kidding. If


Joel (6m 35s):

Costs are getting cheaper, Lieven a lot of clearance rack companies. That's


Lieven (6m 39s):

That's true.


Chad (6m 39s):

A lot of that due to our friend Liz Truss maybe. I don't know. So what's the over under that we think Liz is gonna stay in position as PM in the UK. Any bets?


Joel (6m 50s):

Well, she's gotta have at least a year, right?


Chad (6m 52s):

They could switch in December. Isn't there like a vote coming in December? So that could be one way that she gets kicked out. But I mean the, the interest rates are rising due to inflation caused by stupid, stupid Russians. She cuts taxes, which seems to be counterintuitive.


Joel (7m 8s):

She reversed that today, didn't she?


Chad (7m 11s):

She had to look at the sterling pound. It is pretty much on parody with the US dollar today. One of the things I think happened with Brexit was that, you know, it wasn't about stability, it was about the the ability to use volatility to either shoot up or shoot down. Well they on the way up everybody was like, Oh, it looks Brexit looks like Brexit looks like a smart, smart deal. The problem is they lost a hell of a lot of stability and there's always strength in numbers. So being able to be a part of the European Union. I just wonder how the UK is going to fair in the coming years.


Joel (7m 50s):

So basically she took over for Boris and there's a new election soon which will either put a new party in power or not and they'll decide who the prime minister is. So yes, she could have a really short tenure is what you're saying


Chad (8m 3s):

In Liz, we do not trust.


Joel (8m 5s):

Yeah.


Lieven (8m 5s):

Anymore.


Joel (8m 6s):

Levin, what is the continent? Think about Italy's new leader?


Chad (8m 9s):

Oh that's a good question.


Joel (8m 10s):

Was it Giorgia? Giorgia Meloni?


Lieven (8m 13s):

That is something else, indeed. She used to be part of the party, which was the direct successor of the fascist party. I mean the party from Mussolini, she is extremely right winged, but the moment she was elected, she made a statement in which she said she was going to support Europe, she was going to stay supporting Europe, she was going to support Ukraine, et cetera. So she probably will be less extreme as people were afraid of. But it's, it was kind of a shock for many people, I think.


Joel (8m 45s):

And by support Europe she means take it over.


Lieven (8m 48s):

That's one way of supporting I guess United Europe, something like that.


Chad (8m 52s):

We are talking about Italy, right? I don't think that we're gonna gonna see Italy over Europe anytime.


Lieven (8m 58s):

Not yet.


Chad (9m 0s):

Not really The military powerhouse that we've seen in history.


Joel (9m 5s):

Well it's gonna be very different. Not very different but a little bit different Europe than we're used to seeing when we went there last time we were in Paris, Chad. But we're heading back there. What for?


Chad (9m 16s):

Unleash World, which happens in Paris, it is an amazing time. If you are in Europe and you haven't registered yet, come on people go to Chadcheese.com, click in the upper right hand corner where you see events. So we have a 20% off coupon that you can actually use. It is an amazing show. Levin's gonna be there. What what other reason than than meeting Lieven for goodness sakes. And wait a minute, there's a rooftop pre-party conference where you can actually meet Lieven and catch the Vonq.


Lieven (9m 51s):

A champagne tasting where I will be present and so far you won't be,


Joel (9m 56s):

He can't get you into that. He's just virtue signaling that he's going and we're not.


Chad (10m 0s):

Yeah, that hurts. That hurts.


Joel (10m 2s):

There's no Groupon for the champagne. Champagne tasting.


Chad (10m 5s):

That's it. That's it. Okay, I'm just gonna focus on the Paris Skyline rooftop party with our friends at Vonq. Again, this is a pre Unleashed party, so it's an Unleash party Vonq's. Gonna be there. Chad and Cheese, Lieven. I might have the bouncers throw 'em out unless we can get into this champagne tasting.


Joel (10m 25s):

You'll get to see all the Eiffel Tower from the rooftop, not just the tip.


Chad (10m 32s):

TOPICS!


Joel (10m 34s):

Alright guys, we got a four way! Can I interest you in one of those> a new recruitment group formed under the brand Tellent, that's T E double L L E N T has been created through the acquisition and connection of several hiring software, HR management system, and employee performance management software companies. The collaboration is between Recruitee, an ATS based in Amsterdam, Sympa, a Finish HRMS firm and Javelo, a French SAAS platform for HR performance management along with their acquisition of Kiwi HR. Founded in 2017 who provide HRMS for small businesses.


Joel (11m 16s):

The aim of the collaboration is to establish a major HR tech ecosystem in Europe and brings together over 500 employees across 11 offices serving over 6,000 customers in more than 100 countries. Four way is not just a way I order my skyline chili Chad! What's your take?


Chad (11m 37s):

It's a reference that nobody in Europe's gonna understand. So the article in EU startups mentions market fragmentation, which you know, we're obviously seeing all over the place. How can smaller organizations actually compete with some of these larger core talent platforms or these huge organizations who have many different brands underneath them. Apparently this is how they create an umbrella group Tellent and they start collecting companies like Recruitee, who's Dutch, Sympa, Finish, Javelo Parisian, and then Kiwi HR, which is German.


Chad (12m 17s):

I can see an organization trying to fight more well funded platforms with alliances like this, but it then turns into, it could turn into a convoluted mess unless it's managed correctly. So these organizations will operate separately if I'm getting this right, but how are they gonna market share leads and sell together and I gotta pass this over to Lieven because this is something that you guys deal with in your masters of over at House of HR, you have like 50 different companies under the House of HR brand. How do you guys manage all of this? The House of HR leadership team in itself, you guys have to manage all these brands, the leads, the continuity.


Chad (13m 3s):

How do you do it and how do you see an organization like this perspectively being able to manage it or just go crazy?


Lieven (13m 10s):

Well, I think the first choice you have to make is do you wanna stay multi-brand company or do you want to evolve a one brand company? And it's like we always decided we were buying companies because they were outperforming the others and they were the best in class and we bought, so we didn't wanna change them. And I wonder if this is the same strategy these people are going to use? Are they just going to stay different companies or are they going to merge someday into one company having a pan-European approach? Because I think that's the way to go. They have a local base spread around Europe, but working separately. Working independently, but working together. And if they can fix their own software and if they can make sure that at least their own products are working seamlessly together, they might have good products.


Lieven (13m 59s):

But that's the problem always with HR, HR software packages, they just don't talk to each other one as AME can have five different systems not collaborating at all. So if those far companies now can deliver something at least their products working together, they could be often a very well track.


Joel (14m 17s):

What I first thought of Chad is Employee Inc. Bringing together Jobvite and Lever and Jazz HR and some others. The pull to be multi-brand is a powerful one. I think where this one is different is, as opposed to having a bunch of ATSs under the same umbrella, it's a bunch of different companies that do different things. So I would have to imagine they're gonna pull these things together and be complimentary to each other as opposed to have this ATS is for small business, this ATS is for enterprise, they're gonna try to pull the same together. And I agree like it's a cluster fuck to buy companies and acquire companies in the US. You have different cultures, you have different processes, different ways of doing things and you throw in a bunch of European companies together.


Joel (15m 4s):

I gotta think that goes to a different level because you're looking at different languages, different cultures in general. It's not just, you know, the south and the west coast. It's like really different things. So I mean, I think this is something that a lot of customers are driving. I think customers want a lot of services under one umbrella. They don't want a bunch of different accounts, a different bunch of different invoices. But this has trouble written all over it. If they can pull this off, more power to them, but I think the Tide is against them to get this thing done and and be successful. I think it's gonna be very challenging.


Chad (15m 38s):

House of HR does it every day. They have 50, right?


Joel (15m 41s):

They have different brands that they keep separate.


Chad (15m 44s):

You know, these are all different brands underneath Tellent, right? So they're different brands underneath Tellent much like no.


Joel (15m 52s):

Well, I don't know if we know that.


Chad (15m 52s):

Yeah, yeah. I mean from what it looks like they're going to operate separately as all of these brands underneath Tellent. Now House of HR is the umbrella brand with 50 brands underneath it. That's how House of HR works every day. Which is why I ask Lieven, how do you guys manage this mess? And also you take a look at it, it's Dutch, Finish, French and German. So it looks like they're doing much like what House of HR is trying to do, they're trying to spread out get brands in those specific markets that are known in those markets.


Lieven (16m 27s):

From a marketing point of view, I think one brand is so much easier if you want to put one brand into the market, it's fun, it's easy. If you have 52 brands like we have, that's something else. But from the company's point of view, they have their own identity and we don't wanna change it. And I think this is what they're going to try to do with Tellent four different companies, one umbrella. If they wanna stay for different companies just working together a bit, then basically they just keep doing what they did. What I was intrigued by, and maybe I just got the press release wrong, but do I get it right? Those three companies, Recruitee, Sympa and Javelo were independent companies and they just bought together a fourth company.


Lieven (17m 10s):

And that's a strange, we are working, they weren't together before buying the fourth, if I get it right.


Chad (17m 15s):

Yeah. Recruitee acquired Sympa back in 2021. They've kept separate brands.


Lieven (17m 22s):

Okay so they, it's not like they already had some kind of structure. It was already one company with two brands. I, I thought when I was reading the press release and I was looking into it, I thought it's like three CEOs sitting in a bar talking damned how do you feel about the KiwiHR? How we like them, we wanna buy but they're too expensive. Why don't you just put all our money together and let's buy together? I thought it was something like that.


Joel (17m 44s):

Well if we're confused, think of the market, when they go to market with this thing, how confused the buyers are gonna be and the consumers are gonna be?


Chad (17m 51s):

Yeah. That's what's incredibly interesting to me. Again, as we look at House of HR, they have 52 brands and how many different countries? You guys have a strategy in place. I'm sure you know, there's a symbiotic relationship in some cases with from brand to brand where you can share leads, you can actually expand wallet share. There are certain things that you're doing, but that didn't happen overnight. I mean, what does a company like this have to do to be able to mesh? It doesn't seem easy. It seems more like a pain in the ass.


Lieven (18m 25s):

Sometimes. Some of our brands are even competitors in certain areas. We have a Abylsen doing engineering. Belgium, we have Continu doing engineering in Belgium, we have Control F doing engineering, Belgium. Those people are colleagues but are also competitors. In this case it's, I think if they could deliver one single point of contact, one solution, including different brands, different options, different proposals, it could work, but they have to make sure all those systems work together seamlessly. And that's always the problem. It's the interactivity, which mostly sucks.


Joel (19m 2s):

Feels like to me and Lieven correct me if I'm wrong, that Europe tends to be more let brands live in their own ecosystem, in their own country or their own market share. Whereas America, I think we tend to say like, you're gonna be under the main brand, we're gonna, you know, take your tech and everything. We're gonna take away what you thought of ie monster, you know, blowing out OCC, right Chad? Like we're gonna take your tech and the brand is gone. I feel like Europe has a little bit more of a house of brands mentality than the US does. Agree?


Lieven (19m 33s):

I don't think it's European thing. I think it's a decision each company has to make for itself. I used to work for USG people back in the days and they had a different approach. They bought companies and then they all, for example, within Belgium had USG professionals, about 10 different companies. But in the end they all got the same logo, the same name. You had legal professionals, finance professionals, some other professionals, they all became XXX professional. Now it seems it didn't work and at House of HR we are very sure about what we're doing now, letting those companies, which were so good from the beginning, let just be whoever they are and don't force them to be something they're not. And it's a mistake many companies make.


Lieven (20m 15s):

And you say it's more often Europe than in the America. So I dunno could be, but it's definitely not always the case in Europe as well.


Chad (20m 23s):

Don't you see from country to country that, let's say for instance the French or more territorial versus Germans. I mean, because we don't see that in the US. If it's an Ohio company doing business in New Mexico, nobody cares. It's all the same language. It's all the United States. But in Europe you have a French company trying to do business in Germany or visa versa. There can be some territorial kind of like, no, I'm not buying German tech. Do you see that? Is that something that actually exists or is that just us looking from the outside in?


Lieven (20m 58s):

I don't think many people will say, I'm not going to buy something German. I'm not going to buy something from Norway. It's more about approach and about languages. Sometimes it's just easier, even for me, to work with a company who lives close and who speaks my language. And everyone speaks English to a certain extent, as you can hear my accent is different than yours. We understand each other more or less. But being able to speak to someone who speaks your exact same language is easier. And that's something, a problem you just don't have.


Chad (21m 27s):

Yeah, well I gotta say English is probably Lievin's fifth language, which makes us dumb. Cuz I think Joel and I maybe speak bits and parts of Spanish and German every now and again. But you have amazing English. Let's just say that my, my Flemish and my Dutch nonexistent.


Lieven (21m 46s):

Yeah, but then again, why would you learn Dutch? I mean French. French maybe it sounds a bit, if you're going to a champagne party, it's good to speak a few words of French. But you're not going to the champagne per, sorry, to repeat it. But it helps when you speak French then, but no, it's true. It's true. And English is the world's language. I once had a professor saying this class will be taught in the most spoken language in the world, bad English. He was right.


Joel (22m 16s):

So it was in American is how the class was taught.


Lieven (22m 19s):

It was a guy with my accent I guess.


Joel (22m 21s):

Okay, yeah, let's take a quick break and work all these cultural issues out and we'll talk about virtual reality, everybody. Yep.


Chad (22m 31s):

I don't know that there's enough time to work all the cultural issues out, although talking about VR is always something I love doing.


Joel (22m 38s):

Yes sir. Yes, sir. All right. Some news out of Lieven's home base of Belgium, a little company called Adecco, is starting a pilot project in Belgium with three large mobile virtual reality simulators with the aim to train more than 400 forklift truck drivers and order pickers every year. Why? Well, there are currently 4,000 forklift truck driver vacancies in Belgium. Adecco wants to prepare 200 drivers for the Belgium labor market by 2022 and at least 400 per year from 2023. After the pilot project in Belgium, the VR training will be rolled out in the rest of the world.


Joel (23m 20s):

Chad, are you ready to get your forklift on and your Oculus in Belgium?


Chad (23m 26s):

IOkay. So I trained in VR simulators in the military for squad tactics, firing ranges. But this is 10 plus years ago, they were great from the standpoint of being able to record and replay the training. It didn't take place on the real ground for training, rather it supplemented our training. We could always take a squad back into the VR training set to go over basic tactics. I mean, it gave you an opportunity to get more repetition. It gave you more training time without the high expense in this case of owning a bunch of forklifts. So I'm very surprised that staff and companies haven't used this or different methods to start training in a variety of different positions.


Chad (24m 10s):

If you think of it, when Adecco starts creating forklift operators, they could have somewhat of a corner on the market. So what if they did this on the, you know, other skills to fill positions, healthcare engineers, I mean, the investment could be substantial, but if they are partnering with certain organizations, they could easily alleviate that cost. So, you know, Lieven, this is something that we've talked about on several podcasts before. Why isn't staffing doing more of this? They could corner the market in some areas.


Lieven (24m 44s):

We are starting to do it, all of us. House of HR, our competitors are. For example, Accent, one of our staffing companies has bought a training company called Atrium, and they're actually specialized in training people into logistics, truck drivers like you have here. What's it called? Forklift drivers, but also also warehouse people, those kinds of things. That's not really new. And, in our business, we definitely need to be able to identify people and identify their skills and re-skilled them when necessary. We have to identify potential, not skills which are present yet, but potential. And this is something our people are getting pretty good at.


Lieven (25m 24s):

And then by acquiring a training company like they did with Atrium, we can re-skill them and put at our clients whenever the needs arise. So it's not really new. The new thing here is the VR component. And I like VR sometimes in this case I think it could work, but only for people who are already truck or forklift drivers. You're not going to learn how to drive a forklift with a VR headset because it's just not the same thing. I mean, I play golf or I hit a ball from time to time. There's no way that a VR set is going to train me how to play golf. No way. It might look similar from a distance, but it's not the same thing.


Lieven (26m 5s):

But VR is, in my opinion very interesting to simulate potential dangerous situations. So you can give existing forklift drivers an extra training. How would you react if this happened? I'm just imagining something your lot is wiggling or what's it called in English? The lot is moving on your truck. How will you react?


Chad (26m 27s):

No, he's not talking about big booty Latinas Cheeseman, get your head up.


Joel (26m 33s):

Forking forklifts. Yes, I know.


Lieven (26m 35s):

I never talk about big booty Latinas, believe me. But no, so I say VR is interesting to simulate potential dangerous situations. I think it can be handy to get people acquainted with new environments. Let's say we're going to place 10 forklift drivers at a certain client, but they don't have the time or the space to get them acquainted with their warehouse. So recreate it in a VR environment, that's a possibility too. But I don't believe that, for example, a driver license for a car, that you can become a decent driver by learning on a VR, you'll crash into the first car you encounter, I think.


Lieven (27m 19s):

So it's good to help people learn, but it's will never be at complete substitutes today. I mean, never say never, but with the products we have today, I don't think so. But maybe that's not their intention.


Joel (27m 33s):

Lieven brings up a good point with the safety issue. But you also think about the space issue. You know, you think about jobs, that training with VR, you need a lot of real estate to do that, right? You need a lot of warehouse space to train people in person with forklifts and how to drive around and take boxes to other places. And not everyone has that kind of real estate. It's just like with a plane, you can't just fly planes around. It's a lot easier to just put someone in a virtual cockpit. Same with battlefields, right Chad? It's a lot easier to put 'em in a virtual headset reality. To me this seems a lot more of an issue around branding this job and paying it in a way that people would find it desirable.


Joel (28m 14s):

It's a shitty job. You sit in a chair all day and you move boxes around. It's an important job. It's a job that we need to be done, but branding it is a job that's cool or interesting or you're helping the economy to me would go a lot farther and paying these folks a wage that's competitive would go farther. No one comes out of school thinking I wanna be a forklift driver. Whereas a pilot might be sexy, a surgeon or you know, a soldier or sexy. Do I really wanna put on a virtual headset and learn how to drive a forklift that's gonna be really popular with the girls down at the champagne toasting.


Lieven (28m 49s):

It's pretty french.


Joel (28m 50s):

While, I agree this is a great way to train people for this job and the technology is there to do it. I think it's covering up a bigger issue in that the job sucks and the pay probably sucks even more. Fix those and I don't think you'll have the problems with how you train people, you'll have a line up the door of people that wanna do it.


Chad (29m 9s):

Yeah. I think this is gonna be a robot takeover at one time and yeah. And but virtual reality and let's go back to it. You talk about flight simulators, pilots use that to augment their time and they're put into those situations much like Lieven had talked about, those dangerous situations. How would they actually fare in those dangerous situations? But I see VR as this great augmentation to real world, to be able to get more reps to be able to be put into, again, a battlefield scenario that you might not ever see, but you could always be ready for because you actually went through simulations.


Chad (29m 49s):

Nursing, I mean all these different skills that we today have problems filling jobs with. This is all about repetition. So how do we get them repetition and how do we do it cost effectively and with a, with an opportunity to perspectively flex quickly as well. That's another thing that our training in our schools are not keeping up with Moore's law in the technology, right? Moore's law is moving technology so fast that schools can't keep up with the new tech. And I'm not just talking about developers, I'm talking about nursing tech, right? Things like that. VR could help, I think be that augmentation piece to be able to help with a quicker transition.


Joel (30m 35s):

It's a great point. I mean I think robots are eventually gonna do these jobs and the job will eventually become, you're sitting in an office with a virtual headset and you're going to forklift number one and you're doing forklift number one and it's a robot doing it, but you're the human in the brain, you know, doing that one. Okay, done. Let's go to number two. And you're virtually lifting that and taking it to where it needs to go. So in a way, making this job cool is to say it's like you'll play a video game and the video game is take the forklift and take the materials to the, the right warehouse, et cetera. I don't know this job, so I'm speaking outta my asshole. But that's kind of like a way to solve this problem is train these people in VR because the job is inevitably going to be a video game, putting boxes where they need to go.


Chad (31m 22s):

Every box will have a QR code, the robot will scan it, they'll know exactly where it needs to go. They won't need somebody in a trailer in Nevada doing it like drones do.


Joel (31m 33s):

And they'll have their own TikTok account so as you're putting boxes up, you're gonna get likes and comments from your social media about how good of a job you're doing and that'll create the dopamine hit that everyone needs to do their jobs. Oh, that went out in the left field, didn't it?


Chad (31m 50s):

Lieven, you guys are currently doing this at House of hr, which is, which is awesome. The question is much like Joel was talking about some of these jobs just aren't sexy. How do you get people into these jobs?


Lieven (32m 3s):

The struggle is real. I mean, for these kinds of vacancies, we get a handful of applicants each time and most of them aren't even qualified at all. So it's hard. But, and this might sound very cynical, there are always jobs which are even worse. So for some people there's actually is a big improvement and sexy is what you make of it. I mean


Chad (32m 24s):

Right. It's all relative.


Lieven (32m 25s):

Yeah, It is relative. I've seen on a television show a guy who with a forklift who was able to strike a match so they taped a match on his, on the fork and he was able to strike a match without breaking it and putting on a candle. I mean, that's a fraction of a millimeter I guess. So he was very proud of his job and it was kind of a challenge. And two forklift drivers challenged each other in doing tricks because they all thought they were the best. That's great. And those people very proud in their job. So I think it's even arrogant of us to think that these jobs are something people don't want.


Chad (33m 0s):

It's a very good point.


Lieven (33m 2s):

But we call them the burger flipping jobs.


Joel (33m 4s):

But there is a reason why there's a shortage.


Lieven (33m 7s):

Definitely. Yeah, of course. And there are always jobs. It's not fair. I mean, the best jobs, the most fun jobs, like my jobs are well paid jobs and that's not fair. I mean, some people have to work extremely hard, long hours in a difficult environment and they still get paid shit.


Chad (33m 22s):

Well, and we're talking about supply chain in this case, which we've had issues with that. I mean, these positions do deserve great pay and not to be treated like shit because they are the reason why our supply chain even works.


Lieven (33m 39s):

Yeah. At the moment you don't have any truck drivers left, we won't get any food in the store.


Joel (33m 44s):

At least they suffer nearby as opposed to our offshoring story where you can suffer from thousands of miles away. A lot of restaurants took a hit during the pandemic and when they struggled to find workers, some found surprising solutions, such as offshoring cashiers. Earlier this year, the fast food chain Freshy came under fire for using virtual cashiers to ring up customers in Toronto, Canada. Instead of a friendly clerk standing behind the counter, there was a face on a screen asking them what they wanted from a different country, thousands of miles away. This felt really off to a lot of people, but it also feels like the future. Chad, what's your take on offshoring of cashiers?


Joel (34m 26s):

Apparently you have a real life story to tell.


Chad (34m 29s):

Yeah, Julie and I were checking into a boutique hotel in London and we walked up to where the desk clerk should be and there was an iPad. It flickered on as we approached and a nice man who was sitting in India actually greeted us. It was interesting. The experience wasn't great. It was disjointed. It was really kinda weird to be quite frank. And in this case with Freshie, you know, this is, you know, a Canadian story with a London spin from my personal experience, it seems as if obviously they're saying that this is a staffing issue where they can't find people to actually work the cash register.


Chad (35m 14s):

But then again, they're paying people $3 and 75 cents an hour Canadian. This is an interesting way to offshore some jobs that we've never seen offshore before to be able to build more margin and to perspectively and, I don't know, get rid of some jobs that people don't wanna do. I don't know, it's a weird twist.


Lieven (35m 36s):

Yeah, I was wondering while you were talking Chad, why didn't anyone steal the iPad? I mean, if the guy wasn't even there, you could just take the iPad and run away and the guy could be yelling, don't steal me and steal me.


Joel (35m 49s):

Security cameras


Lieven (35m 50s):

Seems like he could do anything. No, no. But I think it's actually a pretty ingenious idea and for some jobs it makes sense that they, people can't work remote. I mean if you're a cashier, you have to be in the shop and you have to to help the people. But if one out of five cashiers would be virtual, those people could work one out of five days from home. And we have, and I'm sure they have it everywhere in our retail stores or grocery stores, we have something called self scan. You'll know it, you just scan yourself and there is one person watching over seven or eight self scans and it goes and it's a bit, it's not very social.


Lieven (36m 29s):

I mean it's, you do it yourself. You say bye, you leave. I mean there is a social aspect in this iPad stuff. I mean you actually talk to someone. So it's for elderly people. I think it would be more fun to do your self scan while there's someone you can talk to. It's a different approach. And I also thought it would be very interesting for like say the clerks at railway stations, now you can buy your ticket in a vending machine, but sometimes you have a question and you need to know where do I need to get off the train and where would I need to get on the train? And those people are sitting there in this boring little, I dunno what the name is in English, (something not in English :), those boring little, it's not offices, but you know what I mean.


Chad (37m 9s):

Yeah.


Lieven (37m 9s):

That could be done by a screen, someone explaining, Okay, where would you like to go? I need to take it to, to Paris because it's almost Unleash and you need the tallies is leaving at six past 10 and if you enter this button, then you'll get your ticket there. Okay, but is is the direct No, it's going to stop in Brussles South out. And this is something which could easily be done by people working remote. And that actually would be a pretty interesting experience, I think. You don't need the person live in front of you, but you do need interaction. You could get the interaction by video, I think. I think it's worth trying out in some ways.


Joel (37m 47s):

I think it's the future. I ordered sandwiches at a place called Jimmy John's, which Chad knows Lieven may not. I ordered it on my phone. I walked into the restaurant, I saw a bag that said Joel on it. I took it and I walked out. The last time I was in Shake Shack, I went to a kiosk. I tapped out my order, I put in my credit card, I sat down until they called my name that my food was ready. I think this is just the way that it's gonna be. I think Chad, in your case, it's gonna move from offshoring paying $3 an hour to a virtual person and they're gonna scan your face or they're gonna know your credit card or something and they're gonna say, Hey Chad and Julie, welcome back to whatever.


Joel (38m 28s):

We got your room ready. We're excited to have you back. We've given you complimentary whatever because it's your 10th trip to our hotel. And you're gonna feel like it's more personable. It's not gonna feel like someone a thousand miles away. So the tech is gonna catch up to all this. I think the virtual offshoring whatever thing is a bridge to where we're going. But frankly, I'm perfectly fine not talking to people. I know that I'm pretty antisocial in general, but I'm fine tapping an order on a screen and then just being served what I ordered. That's a future I'm cool with. Now. I think there's some places like I don't wanna go to In and Out Burger and do the kiosk.


Joel (39m 9s):

I think the whole personal culture of in and out warrants people that are in white outfits and are really nice. I think Chick-fil-A is gonna have a hard time going totally digital because of their culture and how they service customers. But by and large, most places you can go, give me a kiosk, give me a mobile app, I'm good. And at some point a robot's gonna do all the cooking. There may not even be any people at all in these places, let alone people that are a thousand miles away.


Chad (39m 38s):

Yeah. What you're talking about is very minority report. And when we start talking about facial recognition, I think that's where everything breaks down is because maybe in China, they're doing it in China and it works well for them in China, but they don't have quite the privacy regulations that Europe has and then the US has.


Joel (39m 58s):

Yeah.


Chad (39m 58s):

I think from a scale standpoint, it's smart, it's amazing. The problem where this all falls down is wages and taxes. In this case the Freshy case, these individuals were actually working from Nicaragua. They weren't getting paid the minimum wage in Canada. And were they paying taxes in Canada? I don't think they were. They, you know, so it's one of those things.


Joel (40m 23s):

Are they getting healthcare from Canada?


Chad (40m 24s):

Yeah, of course not.


Joel (40m 26s):

Of course not.


Chad (40m 27s):

So course not. That's the thing is Canadians want to know how does this actually impact positively or negatively their economy? How can you do something like this at scale and offer Canadians. Let's say for instance, Canadians an opportunity to do this kind of job where instead of being just a cashier for one Freshie, you're a cashier for all the Freshies in Toronto, right? But you're getting paid a good minimum wage, taxes are getting taken out. Those types of things. These are the conversations that we need to have, I think.


Lieven (41m 1s):

Yeah.


Joel (41m 1s):

It's a very Canadian thing for them to think, are they getting paid our minimum wage? Are they getting our healthcare benefits as Canadians? Americans wouldn't have such care, I don't think if we saw a Nicaraguan virtual person on the screen. I think it would be as long as I get my $5 biggie meal, I don't care where they're coming from or what they're being paid.


Lieven (41m 21s):

Yeah, but it'll become a problem for your people if the people who are actually doing these jobs right now are losing their jobs because someone else in Nicaragua can do 'em for $1 a day and then things will change because this will impact economy. And that's the same problem I've got with platform economies. Like Fiverr. I mean with Fiverr for $5 I can have a logo designed by someone who's living in a city where a house only costs 100 euros a month. So it's just, it's not fair to have those people compete. That's


Joel (41m 52s):

Your choice of who you hire.


Lieven (41m 53s):

Yeah.


Joel (41m 54s):

You can hire only local contractors if you wish.


Lieven (41m 57s):

And pay 200 times as much.


Joel (41m 59s):

But that's on you. If that's on your conscious, then you can go ahead and pay more for a local contractor.


Chad (42m 5s):

The thing is though, when you talk about the US we used to manufacture things, then we outsourced it. So we don't do that anymore. Now we have a plethora of what? Fast food jobs. So we moved, this is the outsourcing of another aspect of jobs. Maybe they weren't as well paying as the manufacturing jobs in the US it's much different than in Europe. We're more focused on rugged individualism. Where in Europe you guys are more focused on the community.


Joel (42m 34s):

The collective.


Chad (42m 35s):

Yeah. Which to be quite frank, you know, this is gonna be a different discussion as the US starts to do something like this, it's all about how much, how much you know, can we pad the margin versus in Europe, who's paying for this? Where are the taxes going? Those types of things.


Lieven (42m 51s):

We do have rules and rules just to avoid social dumping. And this would be a new way of social dumping. Of course we have more experience with the problem given the situation Eastern Europe and Western Europe. The huge differences and wages 10, 15 years ago was getting better now. But all those people came working in the west because they earned more, even if we paid them less. And then there were new legislations about equal pay for, if you work for, even if you're from Romania, if you work in Belgium, you get the minimum wages from Belgium. Of course now it's evident it didn't was a few years ago. But this could be new kind of social dumping.


Lieven (43m 32s):

It could become a problem.


Joel (43m 34s):

Social dumping. Is that what Florida did to Martha's Vineyard? Chad? Is that the same thing?


Chad (43m 39s):

That's more human dumping, which is even worse.


Joel (43m 43s):

And with that


Lieven Chad and Cheese (43m 44s):

We out. We out. We out.


OUTRO (44m 45s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

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