White-Collar Salary Collapse

In this episode of HR’s Most Dangerous Podcast, Joel Cheesman and guest host JT O’Donnell unpack the chaotic 2026 labor market with high-energy banter. They kick off with GIF vs. Jif debates and a wild March Madness elevator story with a college coach, then explore NIL deals reshaping sports careers and the mental health hits athletes face when the money dries up.

The duo dives into the “nothing feels real” AI era—OpenAI’s Sora drama, viral AI-generated roasts, the booming AI-clip economy (where tools like OpusClip deliver six-figure incomes), and Randstad Workmonitor 2026 warnings of massive entry-level job losses to automation. They call out brutal white-collar realities like 40% of job-switchers taking steep pay cuts, shady reverse recruiting scams, Talent.com layoff rumors, and surging demand for AI Trainers and agentic skills—blending snarky critique with practical survival tips, plus quick hits on Deel’s legal drama, NBA LinkedIn virality, and JT’s upcoming Harvard Business School appearance.

TRANSCRIPT

Joel Cheesman (00:32.174)

stopping, collaborating and listening. Hey kids, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Excursion Cheeseman.

JT ODonnell (00:42.026)

And I am JT. Call me Elle Woods O'Donnell.

Joel Cheesman (00:46.162)

And on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, white-collar workers are cutting, recruiters are reversing, and NBA players are posting. Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:00.594)

What's up, JT? It's just us girls today. It's just us girls. Girl talk.

JT ODonnell (01:00.866)

What's up, buddy? I can't believe it's just you and me. I know. Do we tell everybody? So we have this WhatsApp and we talk about our topics and when they told us it was just gonna be the two of us. Joel throughout his favorite like boxing, Jeff, I threw out Rhonda Rousey. I think she was kind of killing it on you in there. So let's go. I'm ready to box with you. I got up early, I studied.

Joel Cheesman (01:21.382)

I didn't know that you say, I didn't know that you say Jif. I say Gif. I feel like the world is divided in between those two parties, Gif and Jif.

JT ODonnell (01:25.784)

Jeff, it's a...

See, we're already divided. It's gonna be a good show.

Joel Cheesman (01:31.794)

JPEG and GIFs and GIFs. So, how you been? I guess it's been a few weeks since we've been on. The world's very calm. So I'm assuming nothing is, nothing new in your life is going.

JT ODonnell (01:38.21)

Good.

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (01:44.492)

Yeah, I mean, it just pains me to even turn on the news at this point and watch that. I think we say this every week, but what? Just what? I know, and you know.

Joel Cheesman (01:52.158)

It's the best reality show on TV though, I'll give you that. By the way, I don't know, we don't talk about streaming often or what we're watching. There's a lot of stuff in like the project Hail Mary, have you seen that yet? I haven't seen it, but it's getting really good reviews. I think Ryan Gosling is very charming and would be happy to go see that. DTF St. Louis, I got a show I'm gonna throw out there. Have you seen it?

JT ODonnell (02:05.197)

I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen it yet.

JT ODonnell (02:14.775)

freaking love it, obsessed every episode, soon as it comes out. don't, absolutely. I mean, Jason Bateman, I've watched everything he's ever been in. You know, I think he's incredible, just an incredible, incredible actor. But this shows, and I only just watched Stranger Things this year. And so, and then to have Linda Cardellini in it too, like these are amazing cast that got put together for this. And yeah, I'm obsessed, absolutely obsessed.

Joel Cheesman (02:33.265)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (02:43.152)

It is, it is in the, the HBO DNA, the white Lotus, the like they they've done content so well for so long. and this is the next iteration of great HBO max, whatever we're calling it this week, of content. and I love, I kind of love the whole not dumping all the episodes at once. I kind of like the string it out because then

JT ODonnell (02:49.293)

100%.

Joel Cheesman (03:09.362)

Not everyone, no one knows what's coming next. It's, goes back to conversation. Like you and I are a certain age where the water cooler talk, everyone watched, you know, that week and then they talked about it. When Netflix does the whole dump, it's like, have you seen it all? Like, yeah, I finished it. Like, don't tell me, don't tell me. mean, HBO goes back to the old school, like, let's talk about this week's episode. And, and I appreciate that about it. Are you watching? Yeah.

JT ODonnell (03:19.436)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (03:27.775)

Right.

JT ODonnell (03:35.509)

No, the scarcity rule. It's good. It's good.

Joel Cheesman (03:38.46)

Yeah. Are you, by the way, I think that's sad that we've lost that in society for the most part. Like there was a time where everybody watched Seinfeld and is like, everybody talked about it because everybody did it. That that's gone from the world for the most part. However, March madness, everyone seems to be watching. Are you a basketball fan? Are you like keeping touch? Do you have a, do you have a bracket?

JT ODonnell (04:00.011)

I do not, I don't do any of that, but I do have a funny story. So my husband who has a pilot had to fly into Philly on Sunday and stay in a hotel that the March Madness team was staying in. Obviously they were everywhere. So he gets in the elevator in his suit, guy next to him and he's like, you know, hey, what do you do? I'm a pilot. Hey, what do you do? Well, I'm a coach for March Madness. Do you like basketball? My husband played basketball. He's like, yeah. He's like, are you kidding? Look at this place.

Joel Cheesman (04:13.054)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (04:27.174)

Uh-huh.

JT ODonnell (04:28.897)

And he goes, you want tickets? Literally gave, I'm not, can't even make it up. Literally in an elevator ride, gave him like, go give me your name. The tickets will be at the front desk. And there he went to the game that night. So I know, cause I don't even pay attention to it. Who played Sunday night? You guys can tell me later, but like, right? Like it's just hilarious that that would happen so randomly.

Joel Cheesman (04:31.742)

Get out.

Joel Cheesman (04:41.854)

Do you know the coach? Do you know who the coach was or the team?

Joel Cheesman (04:52.764)

Now granted, those early games are sometimes empty. Like it's not, once you get to the big games that are coming, it's so those first rounds, can be a little bit, you know, like give tickets away, get people in the seats. What I found interesting and I love March Madness and I, from football, it's probably one of the best events in sports. The World Cup coming is gonna be awesome too. But what I found from a work perspective or like,

JT ODonnell (04:58.498)

Fair.

Joel Cheesman (05:22.172)

world of work is the number of older coaches, is really, really strong. So you have like, Tom is, you have Rick Patino, Calip, like there are a lot of older coaches that traditionally would be gone. And what's happening is with NIL with, with the kids getting money, scouting recruiting is much different than it was 20 years ago, 10, 20 years ago. used to be like, I have to go to some podunk.

JT ODonnell (05:33.441)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:52.168)

high school to see a kid play, go to AAU tournaments. It's very tough to travel and it's very long hours. If it's just a matter of give kids checks, if I'm an older coach, I don't have to scout. I don't have to travel the way I used to like who, okay, let's sit, let's give checks to these kids and have them come here. So I I guess ultimately it's good for the sport that you're seeing a lot of these sort of entrenched coaches still coaching. Cause I do think they are good at their job.

But if you take out the hard part, the shitty part of traveling and Burger King off the side of State Road, whatever, it becomes a pretty appealing job. So that's something that I've noticed in March Madness that I guess is a positive.

JT ODonnell (06:33.249)

Yeah, and I'm just glad you talked about NIL because I've been a fan of that for a while. think, you know, a lot of people don't understand that, you know, people go into the NBA, the average time the NBA is two to three years. They've lived their whole life towards this goal. They tend to blow their money, end up broke. A lot of problems. This isn't they're not the only sport that does this, but it has the highest rate basketball. So when I look at these college kids and I think you can learn to make money other ways, if you get injured or whatever, you can build your brand.

Joel Cheesman (06:46.076)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (07:01.896)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (07:02.022)

instead of having the colleges rape all of that, it makes me happy because they need it, right? They need it.

Joel Cheesman (07:06.92)

Yeah. I think, I think the verdict, I think the jury is still out on that. imagine our first disagreement on the show is in banter. But, I mean, look for a lot of players, it's, it is, it's great. These are kids from, poor, whether it's rural country, rural, rural urban folk kids that are poor can now play at 18 years old and make six figures. I think that's a generally good thing, but I also think most of them will not be professional players.

JT ODonnell (07:13.525)

Shocker.

JT ODonnell (07:36.481)

There you go.

Joel Cheesman (07:36.542)

And I think there's a real mental thing that we're going to have to deal with of these kids who are making six figures, being an offensive lineman at Joey Bagadona at university and not being drafted. And now I have to go sell cars or something because I don't have the education and I'm used to this money. Like now I have to make half the money or much less than that. How do I deal with that? And, and we already know young kids want to be CEO after the first week.

Now we have rich, rich athletes that want to get paid what they were getting paid to play football or basketball. I think that's going to be a real issue as we, as we unfold this NIL drama.

JT ODonnell (08:04.075)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (08:15.285)

I do understand that they are investing a lot in having financial planners come in and talk to them and make them more aware. They have older players come back and talk about what happened when they burnt their cash and gave it away to all their friends and family, that sort of thing. So I guess I'm always more hopeful that the coaching is present and that they want to help them with that. But yeah, you're right. There'll be some casualties to that too.

Joel Cheesman (08:23.518)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (08:33.374)

Yeah. By the way, teaser, we have a topic of people getting less than they're used to based on the current state of the world. Also surprising this week, Sora just dropped today. Open AI is killing Sora. Any thoughts about that?

JT ODonnell (08:38.251)

We do. Yeah, we do.

JT ODonnell (08:46.325)

Yeah, yeah.

JT ODonnell (08:52.197)

So interesting because after they just struck that deal with Disney so that people could do character license, like why the sudden shutdown? To me, my mind immediately goes to something bad, nefarious is happening that is forcing this. I don't know why. Like my gut says somebody scared them so badly that they're like, Ooh, we need to pull back. I don't know. What do you think? Financial play or fear?

Joel Cheesman (08:55.891)

huh. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:15.57)

I think it's focus. think that their investors are saying, hey, we need to make money. We're spending a lot. Energy is more expensive than ever. Like let's focus on what our mission is. And their mission is not fun videos for Disney characters. It's like advertising, which they need to roll out. They have this whole new device with Johnny Ive that still has to come out. There's...

JT ODonnell (09:23.095)

burning.

Joel Cheesman (09:40.114)

We're starting to see like little teaser videos about what that might look like, whether they're real or not. don't know. but yeah, I think it's just, it's just focus when companies start worrying about member member. We work, they were doing like surfing companies and like they were doing so many outs out of the out of bound stuff. It was like, let's focus on what we're supposed to be doing. I think open AI is, is similar. Yeah. but by the way, interestingly,

JT ODonnell (09:44.065)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (09:48.193)

cash.

JT ODonnell (09:52.781)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (09:59.839)

Weird.

JT ODonnell (10:03.871)

Starting a school. Yeah, that's fair.

Joel Cheesman (10:11.77)

I find myself double taking on videos now because I don't know, it a real person? Is it not? Is it like, so I came across this because it's work related. I want to show it to you. it's not exactly what you think. It's not as it's not as it seems, which is sort of a theme in the world today, but I want to show it to you and get your take ready.

JT ODonnell (10:28.717)

All right.

JT ODonnell (10:32.301)

All right, let's see. Let's go.

Joel Cheesman (12:00.008)

So in case you haven't caught yet, all right.

Joel Cheesman (12:24.648)

So give me your initial take and then I'll tell you when I dug in what I found. What are your initial thoughts on this?

JT ODonnell (12:32.877)

So my initial thought is that you have a new employee that is really learning how to lean into the use of AI. Some skill building going on there.

Joel Cheesman (12:41.48)

Yeah. Okay. So my, my bullshit meter kind of goes off when I watch this and I go, what, what TA person would like throw a job seeker under the bus like this on public? Like that didn't quite smell right. So I look at the comments and the comments are, they fell for it. Like this is the way the world now, at least you didn't like fire her immediately. Like people took it for face value. And then I look at her.

her username. And her username is Rebecca music or something. And I'm like, what? Okay. So then I go to her videos. And her the link in her video is a Sora link. So I'm like, okay, this is this is a this is a hustle, right? So I go look at all this, this woman's videos. She's a young woman, which I was like, what your head of you like you're hiring people? Okay, that's a little bit weird. But maybe

JT ODonnell (13:38.369)

Fair.

Joel Cheesman (13:40.634)

All of her videos are set up to promote Sora, which I'm assuming people click on the link and then they like start using Sora or I don't know exactly. I didn't have enough time or care to go to dig in, but this was not a genuine TA person saying I have this video or HR person. Like this is happening all over the place and it's just a weird world where like, I don't know what's real. What isn't who's selling me something? What's AI generated?

It's just a real world where we don't trust anything or anybody. Now, for me and you, people that know us, trust us, that has more value than ever because of this sort of slop, I guess it's being thrown out. But now that you know the backstory, your thoughts.

JT ODonnell (14:27.243)

Yeah. So this is like the level of complexity that we're seeing with marketing now, the capacity in which think about the mo the first thing we ever did that starts to feel like this was product placement. Remember the show trading spaces. It was the first show on discovery channel history lesson, right? Like, yes, right. Okay. So now we have such a level of sophistication that we know we need to emotionally get people to react and think about the age groups. got to react in that like older workers.

Joel Cheesman (14:42.138)

ET. ET Reese's Pieces. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (14:57.229)

who want to, you know, essentially shit on Gen Z, excuse the language, diving right into this conversation right behind her, like all in, right? The song comes on, everyone now wants to know how that got made. So product placement, you know, 20 out of 10 in that moment. But even the Gen Zers are going to want to shit because they're going to go, what am I getting vilified? Let's see what I'm getting vilified for. that's great. Look at how smart I was, you know? That is some serious multi-generational marketing done very well.

Joel Cheesman (15:11.955)

Right.

JT ODonnell (15:26.453)

You know, but like you said, people are falling for it. I'm scared.

Joel Cheesman (15:30.686)

So you're okay with her posting this and not being genuine with what she does and like, you just say, do you just appreciate the hustle and like good for her? Okay, all right.

JT ODonnell (15:39.382)

I do. I do. I think soon enough, if people have an issue with it and you have to have a disclaimer, you know, a site like TikTok will ban her if they decide, hey, that's not transparent. there's inside TikTok, there's a toggle that says, is this an advertisement? Is this, you know, anything? And if you ever get caught, you are banned. You are banned. And so they will crack down on stuff like that. She just was very crafty.

Joel Cheesman (15:46.078)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (15:49.895)

Joel Cheesman (15:59.176)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (16:02.814)

So this is young people walking the line of how can I get, how much can I get away with? And she's very good at convincing people that she really is doing this. Which we've shared a story which not, but let's bring it out. There's the Clippers. Clippers is a thing and you're on the cutting edge of all this social media stuff. So typically,

JT ODonnell (16:09.325)

100 %

JT ODonnell (16:15.584)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (16:21.644)

Yeah.

A big thing. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (16:28.542)

I would pay you to like, talk about my stuff, my skin cleanser, whatever. And then I would pay you. But now we have Clippers, which I'm a company or a podcast and I pay you to basically just reshare. I'm guessing, right. Or a clip from your show. Okay. Explain this to me then.

JT ODonnell (16:45.225)

No, yeah, wait. So the way they're making money is they're taking podcasts, they're taking pieces of that, and they're using AI tools like Opus Pro that can very quickly go through Listen and clip what it knows is probably a good segment. They're then bringing it into another AI platform like Captions or HeyGen. These are then creating B-roll, AI-generated B-roll.

Joel Cheesman (16:56.296)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (17:11.361)

transitions, music overlay. So you're talking about an individual on their phone can sit and make a thousand dollars an hour using AI to build these clips. And companies are like, great, do it. Because they're giving this to people who inherently are knowing what's going viral and then applying those viral styles to that content. Right? So it's worth it to them. It is worth it to them. It's a big business right now.

Joel Cheesman (17:28.818)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

So Mr. I didn't know this Mr. Beast, who I think a lot of people on this podcast listen know at least basically who that is has a company called Vero or Viro. I'm guessing it's Viro and viral V Y R O where it's a marketplace where I'm a social media person and I let's say there's a podcast. You're saying the company doesn't control what the clip is just that we approve that you can use our content and then we'll pay you based on.

JT ODonnell (17:42.785)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (18:01.724)

what's used so I can do like a mashup of the content with what your stuff is. And people are getting paid like $2 per thousand views, which is not a lot. But if you're good, and you can release as many videos as you want, like people are getting six figures doing this apparently.

JT ODonnell (18:03.243)

Yeah. Yep.

JT ODonnell (18:10.881)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (18:20.021)

Right. And so they're, they're also building networks where they can get the view exposure, right? So they're building partnerships where, Hey, they have a large audience over there. can increase the amount of views I get if I get them to repost it. So if you're paying me $2 per thousand views, Hey buddy, repost it for me. I'll give you a buck per thousand views. I'm still making a profit. Right. So they are understanding the complexity of that business.

Joel Cheesman (18:31.336)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (18:38.194)

Yeah.

Do you think there's a work angle to this? Do you think companies will say, we have these videos about working here, we'll pay you $2 per thousand views to promote the company? Or do you think it's limited to consumer products? Okay.

JT ODonnell (18:55.229)

One, well, no, no, well, 100%, but that's not for every company because I really believe we're going towards a world where companies want fewer employees, not more. So employer branding comes into question for me going forward because you do want good employer branding in the sense that you want the right people to join your firm, but are you going to need that level of marketing that you've needed previously to attract talent? I don't think you're going to. I think you'll want some solid content there. Where I think this turns is that

Joel Cheesman (19:18.675)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (19:23.327)

Everyone cares very deeply how employees are now treated. So to me, your employer brand becomes more representation of my customer base should feel good about what it's like to work here. So there's why I see employer branding, you know, continuing on, but no, it's changed a lot. Where I think it gets super interesting is we keep talking about a $480 billion knowledge creator economy, an economy that feeds itself. Right. And we've always gotten back and forth on the show. You're everyone says, no, nobody wants to be an influencer at JT. I'm like,

Joel Cheesman (19:36.882)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (19:47.496)

Yep.

JT ODonnell (19:52.982)

Not everybody's going to be an influencer. This is a beautiful example. People are making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, never getting in front of the camera.

Joel Cheesman (19:55.752)

Sure.

Joel Cheesman (19:59.196)

Are there, do you know of any companies leveraging social media and influencers that are really crushing it from my work perspective? Cause I don't.

JT ODonnell (20:08.937)

No, because again, is the investment, does it make sense? do you, who needs that level of employer branding or work branding at this stage? You don't, especially not in this economy right now. Like should we bring up the job numbers some more? It's horrible. so no, I don't, I don't see it, but you know, the pendulum swings and there will be companies that will suddenly want to hire the best and the brightest. And when they do, it will make sense to have that kind of content.

Joel Cheesman (20:16.744)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (20:22.108)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (20:34.086)

Okay, let's get to shout outs.

Joel Cheesman (20:39.046)

So real quick, because we spend a lot of time on banter. I'm sure people want us to get to the topics. But so there's a story out of Quebec, and I'm wearing my Quebec hockey t-shirt, defunct hockey team t-shirt. Have you ever been to Quebec City, by the way?

JT ODonnell (20:51.219)

I have I love Quebec City. Gorgeous. I went in winter. I went in winter. It's magical. Year round.

Joel Cheesman (20:52.73)

It's beautiful. mean, don't go in winter, but yeah, it's a very cool.

Joel Cheesman (21:01.374)

I'm sure it is for about an hour. And then I like, get me, get me the hell out of here. But yeah, it's a, it's like built on a Fort from like the 16, 1700s, the Abraham, uh, the Citadel, like very cool. If you haven't been, it's not, it's not on most people's lists, but yeah, Quebec city is probably the most European city in North America that I've ever been to. Um, anyway, cool place. Uh, so, so JT, we hear about how immigration population collapse. We're all we're destroying humanity.

JT ODonnell (21:09.069)

Gorgeous.

JT ODonnell (21:20.927)

Agreed. Agreed.

Joel Cheesman (21:30.046)

Well, a man and his son are doing their best to correct the collapse of humanity by donating sperm. And this story came out of Quebec. It's a father-son deal. I don't know if they go together to the sperm bank. It wasn't really clear in the story, but they have apparently fathered over 600 children in the Quebec province there in Canada. Canada is losing population, by the way, so you would think like, well, hey, this is a good thing. Unfortunately,

JT ODonnell (21:31.181)

Ugh.

Joel Cheesman (21:57.586)

The gene pool says otherwise, they're actually being sued by a mother who has four kids. Three of those kids are by the father and one of them is sperm from the son. And if you have that, so I didn't know this because I've never donated sperm and no judgment on those who have, get it, but you're, you're limited to how many you can father because of this whole gene pool thing. So anyway, these guys, apparently when they signed papers agreed to father no more than 25 kids, which I think is still a lot.

but they went way over the 25 limit and now it looks like they're gonna get pinched for it and she's not happy. What are your thoughts on sperm donation and the balance between population collapse and in, know, father, or marrying your cousin?

JT ODonnell (22:44.247)

Where did the system break down that they got away with more than 25 is my first question. Like how did they get away with this is the first thing that you gotta ask yourself and fix. I mean, like talk about a racket. mean, holy, what a way to make money.

Joel Cheesman (22:55.304)

Different names. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Or maybe different. Now the problem is if, if, if these were all like Wayne Gretzky's kids, the Canadians would be fine with it. They'd, they'd be more than fine with it. But because these two nobodies are donating, it's a problem.

JT ODonnell (23:10.701)

I mean, well, blood testing's gonna go through the roof, because now you're gonna go on a first date and be like, we kinda look alike. we run that test? I mean, there you go. You are welcome. Canada, you are welcome with my, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (23:21.682)

That's a business idea, JT. Let's open up a DNA background checking for dating in Quebec City is the new million dollar business up there.

JT ODonnell (23:32.565)

There you go. There you go.

Unreal.

Joel Cheesman (23:40.062)

All right, give us a shout out, JT.

JT ODonnell (23:42.037)

Okay, my shout out, believe it or not, is to Harvard Business School. And I told you my nickname was Elle Woods because it's finally happened, Joel. It's finally happened. am, I...

Joel Cheesman (23:51.26)

Yep. Now for the younger kids that maybe don't know, even I know Elle Woods. So give us like who is Elle Woods before you go on. Cause I think they'll be lost.

JT ODonnell (23:59.954)

Legally Blonde, the movie Legally Blonde with Reese Witherspoon, who is a very new and active member on LinkedIn, by the way. So she ends up going to Harvard Law and the quote is when she gets in, she goes, what, like it's hard or something? And so I say that, yeah, she goes for a guy. I am going to be speaking at Harvard Business School for the very first time in my life at 57. So what, is it hard? Yeah, it's kind of hard to get invited to speak at Harvard Business School, but.

Joel Cheesman (24:12.732)

Yeah. She goes for a boy, right? She goes for a boy and then ends up. Yeah. Okay.

JT ODonnell (24:28.556)

They found me on LinkedIn and I'm going to be speaking for their AI department, of all things, about AI and its impact on jobs and careers. And the invite came because of the work that I do on social media, specifically LinkedIn, talking about this. So shout out to Harvard Business School for finally giving me my shot. I'll be there in pink.

Joel Cheesman (24:46.334)

I'm fascinated that they found you. Not because you're you, but because I'm guessing at Harvard, they have a lot of people pitching them to come speak. And you should feel very honored that they took the initiative to get you there, because I'm sure a lot of people beg them.

JT ODonnell (24:57.848)

Good point.

JT ODonnell (25:03.106)

I kind of thought it was a joke when it came in through our support email and the teammates forwarded it to me. I was like, come on, this is a joke, right? And it wasn't, so I'm excited, yeah. Thank you.

Joel Cheesman (25:10.642)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (25:14.294)

Congrats to you. That's awesome. Any idea how their case against Trump is going? Is that dismissed? Is it still entrenched in the courts? That was a big story for about a month.

JT ODonnell (25:20.846)

.

I think it's... But I feel like there's a counter suit going on too right now if I recall. So I mean, I think that's going to be buried for a really long time. Far less important these days.

Joel Cheesman (25:31.654)

If there's any school that would get some pro bono legal help, it would be Harvard, I would think. And that would be, yeah, that would not be into that. Are they giving you free stuff for speaking? there you go.

JT ODonnell (25:39.118)

There you go. There you go. I think they're all set.

They are, they are giving me swag. I'm getting swag. It's coming to me. Yes. Which is pretty exciting as well. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (25:51.152)

It's, that's cool, but it's not quite as exciting as the free stuff you can get from Chad and Cheese. Steven.

JT ODonnell (25:57.251)

This is true.

Joel Cheesman (27:11.56)

Thanks, Stephen. Thanks, Stephen. Well, you might notice that Mr. Sowash is not here with us. He's at an event, which brings us to...

JT ODonnell (27:13.225)

no.

Joel Cheesman (27:22.546)

So by the time this drops that event will be over. So we won't talk about, we know where Chad is today, but, in April, he and I will be heading to Phoenix for the, paradox slash workday, client base or client board. And then also hitting up the recruiting leaders exchange event in Chicago for more of where Chad and cheese will be going, head out to Chad cheese.com slash events. Our events are powered by the good folks at shaker recruitment.

marketing by the way. Shall we talk about real news now, JT?

Joel Cheesman (28:02.43)

All right, we have a rumor alert. We have a rumor alert. So this is in from Chad. Talent.com layoffs. He's getting word from multiple sources that the artist formerly known as Nouveau, also from Quebec, the province, Montreal, are cutting heads to the tune of 50%, as well as getting a co-CEO situation.

JT ODonnell (28:04.706)

Hmm.

JT ODonnell (28:20.152)

Canada.

Joel Cheesman (28:31.006)

Details are a little bit sparse at this point, but co-CEOs never work out really well. Workday is one of the more big companies that have done it. It never really works out. By the way, Talent.com in 2023 paid 1.3 million was the whisper number for the domain Talent.com. I'm wondering if they're regretting dropping that cash on the business three years later, JT.

JT ODonnell (28:58.764)

Yeah, I definitely think they are. But I mean, I think this is just the beginning of what we're going to see for a lot of these types of sites and domains. It's changing so fast. it's just not, they're not getting the business, right? The business isn't there.

Joel Cheesman (29:11.006)

Are you pro domain spending or not so much? I'm on the fence about this. For example, Alex.com, full disclosure, I'm an advisor and investor, they spent a good amount of money for the domain Alex.com. I think that's a good investment. Talent.com? I don't know. I don't know. What are your thoughts?

JT ODonnell (29:20.151)

Well...

JT ODonnell (29:34.135)

So.

Well, because it depends on the domain and its value. It's authority ranking, how many pages it has, and what you're intending to do with it. Where I think you're gonna see some super interesting domain investments this year is in the reality that as it gets more sophisticated and searches search for A and put the answers into AI, then you're talking about if I can go pick up.

Joel Cheesman (29:42.194)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:57.331)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (30:01.92)

a lot of domains for a lower price that have a lot of page views and relatively decent authority ranking, I can take those pages, optimize them to be found for AI search and get them linked into AI search. That could be huge. That could absolutely be huge because know, Google's admitted, Google searching is down, way down, over 25%. And that's continuing to drop. Everyone's moving to their AI, you know, of choice. But domains being able to pass through, that gets interesting. I think the concern is talent.

and someone can correct me, I don't think it has deep page depth. I don't think that their domain level is very high in that respect, in which case that's not gonna serve you if you're trying to make some sort of play like that.

Joel Cheesman (30:43.846)

I think the word talent is way more used in our circles than the world at large. mean, go down, get a hundred people off the street and go define talent for me. I don't know if they would say the world of work or have any kind of like, nuance around that. Whereas if it was, if it were jobs, if it were jobs.com, that's probably somewhere I would go like voluntarily to find jobs. But would I go to talent.com?

JT ODonnell (30:50.51)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (31:04.27)

I think they go to actors.

Right.

JT ODonnell (31:12.366)

But.

Joel Cheesman (31:13.744)

I don't know. Probably not.

JT ODonnell (31:14.904)

But somebody could buy talent.com and turn it into a talent agency or an influencer agency or something like that, right? Because I think that's where people's brains go. So there's a play there. Yeah. You're welcome talent.com and the new co CEO. You go ahead and use that. Yeah. There you go.

Joel Cheesman (31:21.97)

That's where your brain went. That's where your brain went. Yeah. The next story will be the pivot. They're pivoting to talent agency for social media influencers. Now that's a good business. All right. That's it from Mia, the rumor alert everybody. Let's go to our first story from our friends at Business Insider. Many professionals are accepting jobs with significant lower salaries after being laid off.

Reveille Olao found that 40 % of white collar workers who changed jobs at the end of last year took salary cuts of more than 10%. This trend coupled with increased job requirements and a weak job market could lead to long-term wage compression. JT, your thoughts on white collar workers accepting less after being unemployed.

JT ODonnell (32:12.598)

Yeah. I mean, this isn't news, right? This has been going on forever. I was around for the dot com bust. I watched engineers end up with salaries, less than half that they were making previously after sitting out of work for two plus years, right? Draining their savings, straining their 401ks, selling their homes, and then finally ending up. This is normal. think what's different about this time around is dot com bust was very specific to a certain skillset. Right now it's everybody. It's everybody.

Companies are just wiping out entire levels of jobs in the white collar world and those salaries aren't coming back. You are going to have to do something different to make that kind of money again. The other problem we have is that people get so desperate, you're going to take what you can get. And so yes, you're going to have to take that pay cut because what we do know is this, it is easier to get employed when you are employed. So for a lot of those people, just getting that job, getting an income, feeling a little stable is also the beginning of continuing to look for a job and

you know, finding one that pays you more of what you're worth. So there's that stop gap that you're trying to deal with and then rebuild. But this does not surprise me at all. I think it's going to really continue. I think the data doesn't even fully reveal to the extent that people are taking less pay. The one thing I would say to anybody that's listening here, I'm also seeing people get 30, 40 % increases. But here's the key difference. They do not act like a commodity.

Joel Cheesman (33:24.211)

Yeah, I agree.

Joel Cheesman (33:33.662)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (33:36.782)

A commodity is I'm one of millions, I'm just vying to get what I can get. They instead have stepped back and said, what's my UVA, my unique value add, right? What problems do I solve, what pain do I alleviate? How do I get out there and talk about that so that I am really seen as the intelligent problem solver so that people want to pay me more? And you want to know the way they're doing it? Talking about it on LinkedIn. Documenting their knowledge, talking about these pain points, speaking the language because...

documenting that content prepares you for the interview. So now someone calls you and says, Hey, I saw you talking about that on LinkedIn. Let's have a conversation. You're ready to go. You're killing in that interview. Right. And now they're like, this person's hands down better than the 50 that we got in our ATS system that didn't even understand their own resume because they used resumes, you know, an AI tool to create a fake resume. And now I got this person really, okay, I'll pay them extra because they know what they're doing. So the exception to the rule is the person that's taking full ownership of their career right now.

Joel Cheesman (34:24.915)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (34:33.586)

Yeah. Keep in mind also that inflation is around 3%. So if you take 3 % inflation and you're taking 10 % less, that gets really challenging for people. And I think that how we find jobs is evolving very, very quickly. And I think that like our conversation, you can check it out in the archives, but JT was on an interview with us about with a job seeker and everyone defaults to, job boards. Okay. I'm to go to indeed.

And they probably do that for three to six months. Maybe they get a few interviews that don't pan out, but they think this is how it's always been done or this is how it's been done in a century. It must work. And then they get to a point where like, well, shit, I've gone to all the jobs, all the posts of jobs. And then they're faced with, now what? And their savings is dwindling. Maybe their spouse is getting impatient. So then it becomes, okay, well, what do I do now? And I think in that, what do I do now? People are really confused. They're like either trying.

hustles or more education or keep trying, or, uh, we're going to talk about reverse recruiting. there were, we're in this real messy phase of like, what the hell do I do when the job boards don't work? And to your point, maybe we get to a world where I just have to keep my LinkedIn up to date where I'm always posting. I'm always insightful and I'm like, I'm in the market as opposed to just, shit, I'm unemployed. Now I have to start from zero.

JT ODonnell (35:40.238)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (35:45.698)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (36:02.002)

to find a job. think people are really getting on the hamster wheel and not finding an easy way to get off.

JT ODonnell (36:05.622)

Yeah. Look, it's, it's professional hygiene. Let me be clear. Going forward, documenting your knowledge on a daily basis, like journaling is professional journaling. If you want to is going to be the new normal, but it's also going to afford you to pivot your career faster. Because if you're talking about what you know right now, the problems you're solving right now, the things that you're interested in right now, and it's, it's like a career asset library sitting there on LinkedIn and a recruiter can come back and now find you based on the sophisticated AI search that analyzes you.

Joel Cheesman (36:27.123)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (36:34.958)

That's way better than somebody only analyzing you based on what you've done historically in the past. A lot of people don't want to do what they used to do or that job doesn't exist anymore. So the only way you're going to get hired is if you could talk about what you know. Case in point, one of the stats that we saw in one of the things in 2025, the request for AI skills in job descriptions went up over 1500%, 1,587%. Okay. In one year.

Joel Cheesman (36:57.512)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (37:02.316)

Where else are people going to talk about their AI knowledge? You're going to have to document it. So it is going to be your new normal in order for you to stay current, but it's also going to afford you a lot more opportunities you're going to want it.

Joel Cheesman (37:12.806)

Yeah. And I don't see this change any anytime soon. I mean, aside from the economy, like the world is a weirder place. Companies don't know what the hell's going on in this whole like no hire, no fire thing. more and more are starting to fire, but they're not hiring back. we've talked a lot about the, layoffs and what's going on. So we virtually hired no new people in 2025. Like there's no immigration.

JT ODonnell (37:17.582)

Absolutely not.

Joel Cheesman (37:40.19)

very little job, like there's very little going on. You got to be outside the box and just assume that you're going to get fired at some point and be prepared for that. Otherwise you're, you're screwed. mean, and the opportunities are never like never before to learn new skills, to like go to LinkedIn learning and like learn new stuff and like the world is out there saying we're here. You just have to take advantage of it and get out of that zone. But yeah, it's not going to get, get much better. Unfortunately.

JT ODonnell (37:51.16)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (38:10.0)

everybody. Sorry about that. Sorry about that.

JT ODonnell (38:11.369)

Mm-mm. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (38:17.566)

All right. From a white collar jobs to entry level jobs, according to Ron Stodd USA's Work Monitor 2026 report, there's a clear disconnect on AI. 76 % of employers predict that at least half of entry level roles will disappear within five years due to automation while only 42 % of workers share that concern. Although 65 % of employers invested in AI in the past year.

48 % of workers believe the tools mainly benefit company profits rather than their own careers. I'll say that again, 76 % of employers are telling you half the entry-level jobs are going away, but only 42 % of the workers actually believe it. JT, what's the disconnect? What advice do you have for entry-level workers?

JT ODonnell (39:04.631)

So entry-level workers, workers in general, are in denial in my opinion because they don't sit in the boardroom. They don't sit in the meetings where this is happening. They don't understand the financial decisions. So it's very easy to sit there and make, you know, be in denial, like make excuses and say this isn't going to happen. It is going to happen. It's already happening. And you think about way back in the industrial revolution, right? People thinking, you know, machines won't replace us. They do. And back.

then a weird crunch period happened where lots of people were displaced and their ability to pivot into new roles didn't happen overnight. We are in the same situation right now. We've just been calling this forever. Nobody's paid attention. I mean, we've been talking about 87 million jobs lost, but eventually 92 million gained, just not at the same time for years now from economists and futurists. But nobody's wanted to hear it until it hurts. And so now it's hurting, and now the data finally makes sense. But it's absolutely here to stay.

Joel Cheesman (39:48.904)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (40:02.431)

And what we will have to think about is that next generation of workers, where are they going to get the skills? Let me just say it's going to be through entrepreneurship. They're already showing signs of it. They're already doing side hustles, creating their own thing, realizing there are no entry level jobs. I've got to go out and make it happen for myself. To me, I actually think that's a good thing. It's about time everybody understood they're not an employee, they're a business of one. Learn how to sell yourself. Learn how to make something. Learn how to survive without that.

Joel Cheesman (40:21.203)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (40:29.203)

solid paycheck that set a golden handcuffs that is really hurting millions of people right now who don't know how to think outside of a full-time job with benefits, right? That's a problem. And that's really being surfaced quickly.

Joel Cheesman (40:38.344)

Yeah. Yep.

JT ODonnell (40:43.531)

You

Joel Cheesman (40:44.126)

So I have a few anecdotes for you. and then my get off my lawn moment. so my first anecdote is my, my son is finishing up his freshman year in college. I like to think that I've sort of prepared my kids to do something that won't get AI'd. he's going into education. I don't see the world going to electronic teachers anytime soon. So this is, he enjoys it. What I told my kids and everyone should do this, like on, on one piece of paper,

JT ODonnell (40:49.398)

Nice.

Joel Cheesman (41:13.202)

write three things that you're good at. On another paper, write three things that you enjoy and then try to cross section what you're good at and what you enjoy and there's your career. You'll have multiple, no I didn't, I didn't. I think he had crayons, he was five, no. So he's at school and of course me being me, I'm like.

JT ODonnell (41:24.973)

You didn't ask him to chat GPT that? Why don't you just give him...

Joel Cheesman (41:37.47)

Do they talk about AI at school? What like, what are your classmates think? Are you worried? I go into all this and, and he's not worried, but he made a comment the other day. He said, he said he thinks about half the people and he's an education. He says he thinks about half the people there. Don't know what the hell they're doing. As if their parents said, you got to go to college, pick something or you got to like, so, so to your point, I think half, let's just say half of.

of the kids do understand I have to be prepared for the future and what am I doing to like bulletproof myself from that? And then you have half the kids, they have no freaking clue what's going on. And that's a problem. The second anecdote that I have is my wife is a professor at college and she talks all the time about how kids today, and this is her off my lawn moment, but kids today are unprepared for school.

like after COVID, it's been this whole weird thing where kids have been baby, they've been coddled, and they're not prepared for the world, which now leads me to my get off my lawn moment.

So JT, you and I are Gen Xers. You and I grew up on, you know, garden hose, water, secondhand smoke, you know, Jolt and Jolt. So we had to figure shit out. And when we played sports, like if you didn't win, you didn't get a trophy. And somehow along the way, we thought participation trophies are okay. Everyone gets a medal. Everyone feels good about themselves.

JT ODonnell (42:51.969)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (43:00.597)

latchkey kid.

Joel Cheesman (43:16.432)

And they've been told this lie that just do what it just do what's expected of you. Just show up and the world will, will roll out the red carpet for you. And that's not, that's not how the world works kids. And we have ourselves to blame as parents and that we have created a generation of kids that, that think, I go to school, I get this degree and the jobs are just going to come. And they're confused when it doesn't, they're confused that the world is a cold, hard place.

And how do I deal with that? And some kids can, but a lot more kids can't. live in a world literally when my parents grew up, they're in their ones past ones in their eighties, they literally had like five professional jobs to choose from. was like teacher, doctor, lawyer, accountant, engineer. Like there wasn't a world of opportunity. I felt lucky to come in into the world of work during the internet.

because I now had a world of opportunity open to me. became a SEO. SEO wasn't even a job. And I look at these kids now, they have eBay, Upwork, Fiverr, social media. YouTube will teach you anything that you want to learn. I had to go to a library. So I'm a little bit down on the kids saying that there's no opportunity. What do we do? Like make your own

shit and JT talks about this every time she's on the show, like the world is there for you to grab by the nuts and do what you want to do and be successful at it. And I don't know why other than the participation trophy culture that kids aren't pursuing or at least a good number aren't pursuing like these other opportunities because they're there to be had.

JT ODonnell (44:42.145)

every time.

every time.

JT ODonnell (44:59.566)

Yeah, but you're talking about decades of intrinsic motivation being scrubbed out of kids. I've mentioned this book on this show so many times, people are going to kill me, but Punished by Rewards, The Problems with As, Praise, and Other Bribes is one of the most powerful books you'll ever read, written in 1993 by Alfie Cohn. He predicted this. He said, when you start that young and you give them a carrot and their whole life is mentally around extrinsic motivators, they don't know how to self-motivate, right? They don't, like everything. So pay me to get up out of bed.

Joel Cheesman (45:10.749)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (45:28.75)

pay me, like incentivize me to do things. Like the lack of intrinsic motivation at this level is so high that it's too overwhelming. Also, I will say the amount of choice that they have, there's so many different directions do I go in? Like, do I learn dropshipping? Do I do this? Do I do Like they also get a little overwhelmed by like where to start and what to do. Now what's going to solve that? Pain. Pain's going to solve that. I hate to say it, but they're going to reach a level of pain that's going to force them into action.

And that's what's eventually going to save that generation. And we're already starting to see it. It starts with the kids who don't have a choice, who have debt, right? Those ones are already figuring out the hustle, already figuring out, you know, I'm not going to get the nine to five job with the salary and the benefits. So let me go figure it out. Others will follow suit because of social media and the way they all document what they're learning and what they're doing and how they're building these businesses. And now all these other kids watch them and say, I can do that too. So I am actually hopeful.

Joel Cheesman (45:58.675)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (46:22.856)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (46:27.042)

that this pain is going to drive this snowball effect and we're going to get them there. We're actually going to have much more resilient kids. In some ways, I think they're a lot like us, Gen X, like Gen Z and Gen Xers, right? Like we really got thrown to the wolves. We were the last generation. I think they're going to have a little bit of that as well and that's probably going be good for them.

Joel Cheesman (46:30.739)

Yeah.

and

Joel Cheesman (46:43.816)

partially and there's going to be pain in learning how to deal with the pain. there's a great documentary about sort of the man culture, the, the, Andrew Tate culture, the, so a lot of young men are rudderless looking for answers and they go to the Andrew Tates of the world who tell them, you know, bitches ain't shit and get paid and it's all a hustle. And so like a lot of people, lot of men that go down that road are going to find out like, okay, that was not the answer. What is the answer? So like there's this journey.

JT ODonnell (46:47.288)

What are you doing?

Joel Cheesman (47:13.842)

The difference is you and I took the journey at eight years old. We came home to no parents. It was like, if you don't learn how to make a grilled cheese, you're not eating, right? And you just figured shit out. I think it's a hard time for them to figure shit out when you're in your twenties to that level. Well, we'll see.

JT ODonnell (47:17.998)

Yes.

JT ODonnell (47:30.798)

Most definitely. You know, I agree, it's gonna be painful, but it's gotta happen.

Joel Cheesman (47:35.582)

All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

Joel Cheesman (47:42.45)

Alright, JT, I heard reverse recruiting for the first time and I do this shit for a living, so here we go.

JT ODonnell (47:45.614)

for the, wait, for the first time, for the first time. Okay, this is, let's go. Let's go.

Joel Cheesman (47:52.22)

Well, my brain is dying, so maybe not the first time. But anyway, in a challenging job market with low hiring rates, some job seekers are turning to reverse recruiting, paying recruiters to find and apply for jobs on their behalf. I that was a recruiter. Anyway, the service, while potentially beneficial, raises concerns about fairness and the risk of scams.

Critics argue it could give an advantage to those who can afford it and may be seen as misrepresentation by some companies. JT, your thoughts on reverse recruiting.

JT ODonnell (48:25.388)

Reverse recruiting comes out every time there's a bad job market. I've been in this industry, how long it always and only comes out in that time. And it's a scam. It's usually recruiters who can't get paid anymore for placing people thinking, well, I'll just flip the script and turn it around. Right. But this particular article has expanded it because they're also suggesting AI tools, which we've already seen have literally broken ATS systems. Hey, sign up and I'll say over in your sleep, I'll send out customized messages.

to 200 job applications. Reverse recruiting is such a scam it infuriates me because one, it shows the job seeker is too lazy to figure out what's really working right now. If you have the money, it now becomes elitist because if you have the money, this one person they're mentioning in this article is charging $1,500 to do it and then 10 % of your annual salary when you get hired. That's big money.

Joel Cheesman (49:16.093)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (49:23.734)

You might be desperate enough to say, I'll pay that. But when you get in the job and realize what that person did for you and how much money you just forked over, you're going to be angry as F when you, because they're not doing anything that you can't figure out for yourself right now. It's called a bucket list targeting who you want to work for back channeling properly and documenting yourself so people can find out you exist. It's not rocket science, but people capitalize on the laziness and the fear of people in this market. So.

very upsetting to me to see them give, I love Business Insider, but them giving props to something like this was pretty frustrating to me.

Joel Cheesman (49:53.63)

Sorry.

JT ODonnell (50:03.021)

Mm-mm.

Joel Cheesman (50:03.624)

So the company that is referred to in the article is the Reverse Recruiting Agency, which took a lot of creativity to come up with. This is really just staffing and recruiting and headhunting with a different label or different wrapping, I think, with a new name.

JT ODonnell (50:11.362)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (50:21.324)

No, just making somebody different pay for it. You're making the job seeker pay for it. That's all.

Joel Cheesman (50:25.182)

Yeah, you're reversing who's paying for the recruiter. Yeah, I mean, it's like an agent. mean, like I get it. If you can do it and pay for it, I'm not going to fault you for taking a certain route to get a job. I think what JT saying is it's it's unnecessary, and you're paying for something that you shouldn't have to. But these people are choosing to do it. So I'm not, you know, I mean, they're not being forced to get their money. If it works, great. I mean, let's be honest, there a lot of unemployed recruiters.

JT ODonnell (50:32.642)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (50:42.478)

Ahem.

at all.

Joel Cheesman (50:54.79)

And if reverse recruiting gives some jobs to recruiters who aren't recruiters anymore and gives them a different outlet to use their skills, I don't know that it's necessarily the worst thing in the world that you do.

JT ODonnell (51:08.276)

It's just not, it's not a sustainable career. It only happens in this type of market. This market, yep, that's it. That's the reason. And so that's the piece that I don't like about it is the people that are praised upon. And a lot of people never see results from it and still pay the money.

Joel Cheesman (51:13.318)

the ebbs and flows of the economy. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (51:24.498)

Yeah, but every job in our industry works like that. If people aren't posting jobs, job boards don't do very well. If people aren't paying for six figure jobs, the latter suffer. Like chicken and egg, some people win in a tough to hire environment. Some people lose and vice versa when shit becomes hot again. When you can't find people, the job boards flourish and all these businesses flourish. When they don't, people got to go, let's get money from the job seekers.

JT ODonnell (51:49.547)

Yep.

Joel Cheesman (51:53.618)

And that's what this is doing. So like, get it, but this, this is the way this industry works. think, I don't know, reverse recruiting, different name, different, whatever.

JT ODonnell (51:55.598)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (52:02.386)

Ugh. Yuck.

Joel Cheesman (52:10.302)

All right, let's talk about Zuckerberg for God's sakes. The Meta CEO is developing an AI agent to perform some of his duties autonomously, bypassing human reports and management layers. This is part of Meta's broader strategy to integrate AI systems into employee workflows, including tools like SecondBrain and MyClaw. The trend of token maxing, that's a new one for me too, and Silicon Valley emphasizes maximizing AI usage for increased efficiency.

JT ODonnell (52:10.958)

my gosh.

Joel Cheesman (52:39.208)

Though concerns about data breaches and inappropriate behavior persist. JT, your thoughts on Zuck AI.

JT ODonnell (52:47.938)

I mean, it's smart of him to do this very publicly because if the CEO is doing it, it's giving a green light to everybody in the organization to really do more than play with AI, but try to create things of value. So he's giving a full nod to like, if I'm doing it, you should all be doing it. There's budget for it. They're about to lay off. I think another 20,000 people is the rumor. So he's freeing up cash.

Joel Cheesman (53:05.597)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (53:11.219)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (53:13.004)

to create more funds for the use of AI. And so I can see why he's doing it. It's a great media play on his part. And also, it's probably going to free up a lot of his mental energy, which is where I see the biggest advantage with AI. I know what it's done for me. I know what it's allowed me to do in terms of the quality of what I can give my clients and allow my brain to focus on the most important thing. So I can only imagine at his level. But yeah, I think this is going to become a total new normal. We also have an adoption problem.

in terms of employees, smart employees in corporate America right now. You you talk to any CEO, there are CEOs right now saying, unlimited funds, spend whatever you want on AI. We've got a budget. Like, let's figure it out. There's no blueprint. We have to create the blueprint. We accept that now. So everybody play. You're not going to be penalized for playing, right? We're going to figure this out. And the sooner we figure it out, the better. That's the new thing that everyone's adopting that I've seen in the last two, three months. The problem is the employees aren't taking advantage of it.

Joel Cheesman (53:43.816)

Who's we?

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (54:06.459)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (54:12.046)

because they're just trying to job hug. And their whole thought is, I'm going to figure out AI for it to take my job. So they're not leaning in to this offer, which I think is wrong because you're going to want to learn these things one way or another. And the sooner you lean into it and figure out how to do your job and then some, or do new different things, the more valuable you become. But I think it's human nature to just want to hold on and not figure that out.

Yeah, I mean, and who knows, he might create a better version of himself. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Joel Cheesman (54:41.32)

Luddites.

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (54:48.744)

So, people will know Joe Essenfeld, founder of Jive, who was acquired by ISIMS in our industry. And Joe founded a company called Fora, Fora.day, which is clever, Fora.day, Fora.day. And the whole business idea is basically how to give executives a superpower of taking all the data that they get, whether it's in meetings, whether it's on email, all the channels that you get content and then making better decisions based on all the, all the content that's out there and what's going on at work. I,

I think what Zuck is doing is something every executive should be doing. Like they should have an AI working all the time about like going through emails and here's sentiment of the company and here's issues coming up and here's topics that like, just summarize for me what's going on at my company. And the need to like have a 15 five where employees come back to you. Like that shouldn't even exist. It should all be automated and all the, all the, all the content and data that's in there should be.

JT ODonnell (55:41.934)

Sure.

JT ODonnell (55:47.01)

happening in real time.

Joel Cheesman (55:48.422)

happening in real time. And, I think this is going to be common. I think if you're CEO without a double, AI agent, doing, helping you with your job, I think your shareholders going to be like, what the hell are we doing? you should be doing this. So I think that's, and I think there'll be more products. Now, fora has not blown up whether maybe they're ahead of the curve. I don't know, but what they're doing, I think is, is, is, is positive for that.

I think it's very interesting that the dichotomy of like layoffs, then also paying huge amounts and having incentives for your executives. there are apparently six, met executives. They're in line for huge paydays if they can boost the stock price to a certain level.

Apparently we still need people because if, if it's you get my dichotomy, right? Like we're laying people off, but then we're giving super salaries and benefits to executives. And now we're going to like also supercharge our executives with an AI version of themselves to help them do their jobs. So where, you know, professionally, where are you on that curve to make sure that you're on the executive side that's getting paid and not the person that doesn't understand any of this shit, I guess. And is just like not valuable and gets laid off. I think it's.

We talk so much about metal laying off people, but they're also giving like huge salaries to AI folks and huge incentives to executives. And you as a professional, I have figure out where the hell am I on this scale? And I need to move further down the road of big paydays. Otherwise I'm going to get screwed.

JT ODonnell (57:13.6)

Yes.

JT ODonnell (57:21.963)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think people just aren't connecting the dots to the amount of opportunity in AI yet because they don't understand AI enough within their own domain. So the sooner you lean into learning all the different AI tools within your industry and starting, like I always say, it's like a big toolbox.

Joel Cheesman (57:31.56)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (57:39.758)

If you have two workers and they've got a hammer and a screwdriver in their toolbox and this person has 40 tools, one of the 40 tools is going to be able to create a masterpiece. That's the way I see AI right now. So the sooner you start looking beyond chat, GPT or whatever and really building, your brain starts to take what you know and gets creative and it turns on. That's what they're looking for. That's what every employer that I'm talking to is looking for is those kind of thinkers right now. People are just rejecting it though. They're thinking, I'll wait till the company tells me what to learn. That is the wrong way to look at it.

Joel Cheesman (57:45.778)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (57:59.378)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (58:09.569)

There is massive opportunity right now to make way more money just by being 10 % smarter about AI and how you utilize AI tools. And so there will be people that take advantage of it. New companies will be built. What's interesting and exciting to me, and my prediction is we're going to see a massive surge of lean, mean, small companies. We're going to see a massive resurgence of small businesses because it's going to be four or five people that act as the CEO, the CMO, the CTO, the CFO, right? And they are it.

Joel Cheesman (58:16.157)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (58:28.872)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (58:38.997)

and they have AI tools working beneath them. And isn't that always the way when you're smaller, you're more agile, you can move faster, you can break things, you can create better. Think about the hundreds of thousands of small businesses that are gonna be built in the next 18 to 24 months as people finally aware of this. That's exciting to me. But in the interim, we've got this going on, putting people to pasture.

Joel Cheesman (58:59.902)

Totally exciting. And I think that the difference will be small team, let's call it a platoon of talent that becomes a billion dollar company. Whereas traditionally you couldn't have a small team make that kind of money. Even Google had to grow headcount to be able to support that. does the world of the future mean a lot of these small businesses that are niches in either locations or whatever that have fewer people, there are more of them with fewer people.

but they're more profitable than companies have ever been. And to that point, I mentioned Wayne Gretzky in my donation, commentary, sperm donation. He said, go where the puck is going. And everyone needs to be thinking about that no matter what you're doing. The Ronstadt survey that I quoted in the first story, they also noted that AI agent skills rose in terms of job postings.

1,587 % in 2025. also found that demand for AI trainers jumped 247%. So jobs are out there. It's just not the traditional jobs that you think of. And you guys just need to go where the puck is going. It's, it's just that easy. It's just that easy. JT it's just that easy. You're welcome. Everybody. We, we solve the problems of, the world. There you go. All right. Let's take a quick break guys.

JT ODonnell (59:57.997)

1587 %

JT ODonnell (01:00:10.477)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is. Yeah, you're welcome, everybody. And we're done.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:23.056)

If you're not plugged in, if you're not subscribed, give us a like or share. you've, if you enjoy what you've heard so far, go check out JT at work at daily.com. If you haven't done that yet and we will be right back.

JT ODonnell (01:00:27.681)

Subscribe.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:38.598)

So much red meat on this episode, JT. Now we're throwing in industry news for everybody at the end. Here's some of the headlines from the week. Our junkies are gonna be happy with this one. Some of the headlines were, number one, Deal CEO, Alex Bozo Buizis, that's, we put the Bozo, it wasn't in the headline, successfully contest inclusion in a corporate spike case. Headline number two, Adzuna acquires job search engines from Trovet and Matula.

JT ODonnell (01:00:40.737)

know,

Let's go!

JT ODonnell (01:00:57.609)

you

Joel Cheesman (01:01:07.87)

to expand global reach. Number three, Paraform raises $40 million. That's $65 million total for automated recruiting. And number four, NBA player Spencer Jones goes viral for a LinkedIn post about game winners that were hit on him, not the ones that he hit. JT, there are lots of industry news going on here. What piqued your interest, if anything?

JT ODonnell (01:01:31.595)

I mean, gosh, all of them, right? So, but I will say the 40 million, it sounds like a lot of money, but right now there's such a race to figure this out. That's not too much money. I think it's enough money for them to try to really invest and figure out how to automate recruiting better and more realistically. I'm excited with some of the gains I've seen. So I'll be interested to see what happens there, but definitely, you know, the basketball player posting on LinkedIn is always going to be my favorite.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:52.509)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (01:02:01.622)

especially with their new algorithm and the way that they're pushing people to document their knowledge, having heavy hitters like that on there now and posting the way LinkedIn wants you to post. Let me be clear, LinkedIn's made it very clear. No more fluff, no more fluff. No more getting on there telling Helen Keller's story or how you walked in the woods or baked a cake and what it taught you about project management. There's so many jokes about that. you don't know about that? Somebody wrote out Helen Keller's story and it went viral, like tens of millions of views, right?

Joel Cheesman (01:02:20.798)

Did you say Helen Keller story? Telling Helen Keller story. No. Okay.

JT ODonnell (01:02:31.297)

They don't want to be that. Look, Facebook is where your friends and family are. Twitter, threads, that's timely. That's where people do it, get it out. LinkedIn is your professional life. It is a very serious platform and it's meant to help you connect with opportunity. That's what LinkedIn wants. They've changed the algorithm to reflect that and I'm here for it. I am loving seeing these so-called influencers that are dying on LinkedIn right now because they were never relevant to begin with, right? But it helps that LinkedIn's also bringing in some major stars to post the right way.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:01.133)

huh.

JT ODonnell (01:03:01.141)

So he was at least saying, let's talk about my business. Let's talk what I do for a living. Let's talk about how visible my failures are. Right. They're here for that Reese Witherspoon newest edition to LinkedIn. Right. Talking about business sold Hello Sunshine for what 700 million. She's a business woman. She wants to talk business. I'm excited. Jennifer Garland. Exactly. I'm here for that because that's what LinkedIn should be. Nobody's asking you to be an influencer. We're saying connect yourself to opportunity, but you know, having these very visible people do that helps people learn what they should and shouldn't be posting.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:15.4)

Yeah, Jennifer Garner.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:30.802)

That's interesting. I have a very different experience on LinkedIn in terms of serious. I have posted serious stuff and I'll be honest with you like stupid. What I would consider stupid shit. I will take a screenshot of an alert on my phone that zip recruiter has the stock has hit an all time low and I'll take a screenshot and put that on LinkedIn and it blows up. Like my people love it. I, okay.

JT ODonnell (01:03:52.366)

I'll stop you right there, but you are actually doing it correctly because you are speaking about your industry and your skill set, and that's what the AI is trying to understand. And so when your people engage with it, it is now associating you with that. So that is technically a piece of content that allies with who you are and what you know, right? Why would you know to put that on there? You know it because this is your expertise, so not out of line.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:56.764)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (01:04:02.31)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (01:04:10.481)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (01:04:14.238)

And my audience loves it because it's the content that they're used to. Um, if I, if I put something out about sperm donors, uh, they probably wouldn't appeal. wouldn't appeal to them as much as, it would otherwise. So I, so I do love, I do love, mean, this, this dude is a little bit, uh, out of the norm. Um, uh, Spencer Jones is a Stanford grad. He invests in businesses. His thing is sort of business and he's a clearly smart guy. Um, he posted.

JT ODonnell (01:04:17.953)

There you go. There you go.

JT ODonnell (01:04:23.519)

You'd probably get banned, but go ahead. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (01:04:35.275)

Exactly.

Joel Cheesman (01:04:43.58)

He had two winning shots taken on him in a week and he posted about he's publicly sort of embarrassed. Most people don't have to do that in the real world and how he's coping with it. So he's very human. think that celebrities tend to be on the, in this ivory tower, people can't touch them. to bring yourself into a space where you're not, you know, it's not your Bugatti or your new Rolex or something like people can, can connect with that. And I think that's really, really powerful.

I hope we see more of that, whether it's professionals or celebrities. LinkedIn, think is prime to be a real player in that. Now, the other news that we have, the deal news, always love a good deal story. if you haven't, I won't catch you up on the whole lawsuit thing and spy, it's the corporate espionage, but it's a really interesting story. anyway, the CEO basically appealed to say, hey, I shouldn't have to be brought on this personally.

JT ODonnell (01:05:15.351)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:05:40.062)

Uh, which the Irish court said, okay, cool. Not, but the company is still in trouble. Everybody, the company is still in trouble. Maybe not as much trouble as they used to be in, by the way, on Cal she, I don't know if you played the Cal she market, uh, game JT or not, but so Cal she has the odds of rippling, winning this case against deal. Uh, the chances are going down. So the market is saying the market is starting to say that deal might come out of this unscathed. guess we'll see. Um,

JT ODonnell (01:05:46.999)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (01:06:03.713)

Really?

Joel Cheesman (01:06:09.938)

They also launched an ATS, which a lot of people found very interesting. because if you can own the whole like payroll ATS, like if you get, they're looking to own that whole space. and I think that spells potential trouble for the indeeds of the world and some of those. So keep an on what deal does. We'll, do that for you if you don't want to. the, the, the, the paraform deal.

JT ODonnell (01:06:23.565)

For sure.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:40.176)

I agree with you. It's not a ton of money with what could be there. They have, they have incredible customers. if you go to their site, they, they proudly showed the logos and who's using them. lot of people in our space, the rippling, I think as a customer of theirs. I just, my problem is it feels like, it feels like bounty jobs. it feels like it's been there. Like it feels like the ATS space or maybe even chat bots where people get

board of what was there or gets acquired and then like something in a new wrapper comes around. The, the ATS businesses is really exemplifies this. So you had like ice Sims and then I Sims was cool. Well, now greenhouse is cool. Okay. Well, they're not cool anymore. Lever's cool now. Okay. Lever's not cool anymore. Let's go to Ashby and you just like, you keep going to the new thing and a different rapper cause it's sexy and it's Silicon Valley and all the startups like gravitate there. So I,

JT ODonnell (01:07:23.831)

That's B.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:34.11)

I feel like it's fine, but I feel like I've seen this movie before. We'll see where it goes from here. But yeah, it's not a ton of money these days, but it's still enough money that their investors are going to want some payback at some point. The Adzuna story, we're going to see so much consolidation in this space. These companies were founded in 2006. When I see like 2006 and an acquisition, I always think like somebody just wanted to retire.

JT ODonnell (01:07:42.999)

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

JT ODonnell (01:07:53.645)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:08:02.898)

Somebody just wanted to like get the hell out, get this off my plate. And I think that's probably what happened here. We're gonna see a lot, zip recruiter has to be taken off the board at some point. Like we're gonna continue to see solidation in this space because I know you don't like job boards, so I'm sure you're on board with.

JT ODonnell (01:08:17.837)

My issue, no, no, no, my issue is, I think you gotta be careful in this acquisition phase because you're right, normally this is consolidation time, it's a great chance to pick up stuff for cheap, right? But what are you really picking up? Is it going to be worth something later on? Talent.com, 1.2 million, should you have done it? I worry about some of these job boards people are picking up and what they're paying for them.

Joel Cheesman (01:08:31.614)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (01:08:45.106)

Are you ever going to see that ROI when things are changing that fast?

Joel Cheesman (01:08:48.702)

Well, let's be honest, these are probably not even TJ Maxx clearance racks. These are probably like Salvation Army pickups. These are probably like maybe some tech, maybe some customers you're getting, maybe some revenue. But yeah, these are not gang buster acquisitions that are happening here. Gang busters, unlike the dad jokes that accompany all of our shows every week, which are always gang busters, JT.

JT ODonnell (01:08:55.487)

Aqua hire? let me take over your debt. Yeah. Fair.

JT ODonnell (01:09:17.131)

I'm so sorry everyone, I'm so sorry.

Joel Cheesman (01:09:20.614)

Sticking with the basketball theme of March Madness and NBA players on LinkedIn, JT, what do you call a block of cheese that shoots hoops? What do you call a block of cheese that shoots hoops?

JT ODonnell (01:09:25.846)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (01:09:33.259)

A cheese whiz?

Joel Cheesman (01:09:34.679)

Swiss swish Swiss. I'll give you another one. What did the genie grant the basketball player?

JT ODonnell (01:09:37.805)

hahahaha

JT ODonnell (01:09:43.295)

I don't know.

Joel Cheesman (01:09:44.594)

three swishes.

JT ODonnell (01:09:49.773)

I'm sorry everyone.

Joel Cheesman (01:09:51.428)

I'm not, I'm not sorry. We out.

JT ODonnell (01:09:53.069)

We out!