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Google Sticks It To Indeed (Again) and Anonymity is Under Fire at Glassdoor (Again)

It's the holiday season, but the recruitment news rages on. The boys cover a variety of topics this week, including:

  • Google for Jobs unveils four new features, and one is particularly brutal for Indeed.

  • Glassdoor goes to court and is ordered to reveal the identities of some of its users (their TOS told you it could happen!).

  • Popular native app Blind is coming to the Web, and here's why it matters.

  • Two new startups land on the scene and promise more AI matching goodness. Legit or more smoke and mirrors?

All that and more from your two favorite industry knuckleheads. Enjoy responsibly.

As always, give our sponsors some love. America's Job Exchange, Sovren and Ratedly rule like no others have ever ruled before.


Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Joel: Happy, happy, happy day good people. Welcome to Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheeseman.

Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash, the ruggedly handsome one.

Joel: Very ruggedly handsome.

Joel: On this week's show, Indeed takes it in the you-know-what, compliments of Google. Lawyers take it in the you-know-what, compliments of our robot overlords, and higher intelligences takes it in the you-know-what-thanks to this ridiculous podcast. I can already smell the Thanksgiving turkey. Stay tuned pilgrims.

Advert: Google, Lever, Entello, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren technology. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligence software since 1996, and we can help improve your hiring process too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit,, for a free demo.

Joel: Dude, I had a call with Sovren last week and it's just ridiculous.

Chad: What's ridiculous?

Joel: Their technology is ridiculous and their list...

Chad: Dude, they like, run the whole world

Joel: They do! Their list of clients and vendors and everybody that uses them is just insane, and so many people don't even know who the hell they are. Interestingly, Trovix, if you remember, Monster bought ten years ago

Chad: Six sense search technology, yeah

Joel: It was largely built on Sovren stuff.

Chad: You've gotta be shitting me. Really?

Joel: It was a little bit of a history lesson for me as well.

Joel: Well, welcome to the show. Everybody. Let's get to shout-outs, I guess.

Chad: Yeah, hit it. Just so everybody knows, this is obviously the boot-to-ass episode.

Joel: Boot to ass. (Laughs) I'm glad you repeated that boot. I'm sure a lot of people thought it was something else. Shout-out to David Phoebus.

Chad: My man!

Joel: David "Phoebus Cates", who gave us some lovely commentary on LinkedIn, was it?

Chad: Yeah, man. Thanks for keeping The Chad and Cheese Show out there!

Joel: Yeah, that was great. David, we love you. Ed Zetusky.

Chad: There he is.

Joel: Zetusky? I don't know how I butchered that, but Ed gave us some love on Twitter, I think?

Chad: Yeah, he did. He used the Chad and Cheese hashtag, by the way.

Joel: Do we know Ed's company?

Chad: I don't think we do. Ed, throw us out that company if it's important to you and you want the Chad and Cheese Podcast to talk about it. Let us know about it.

Joel: So, we asked for feedback at #ChadCheese from our listeners. They don't give us feedback.

Chad: I think they're afraid.

Joel: We tell them to not give us feedback, thinking that we'll use reverse psychology and they still don't give us feedback, so let's try this. Leave us a question, feedback, comment, something at #ChadCheese, and we will mention your company on the air, assuming it's tied to your profile, or put it in the comments, something. So, we'll give you a little mini commercial if you engage with us on Twitter. Maybe that'll work.

Chad: And, if you like the LinkedIn because most people are reaching out to us via LinkedIn, at least from my side, go ahead and do that, but yeah, definitely hit that hashtag if you're tweeting.

Joel: Yeah, we're eventually going to get some incentive to get you to do it. One more shout-out from me. Jeff Hyman has the Strong Suit site/blog. He interviewed me a couple weeks ago about employer branding stuff. I kind of had my Ratedly hat on for that, but Jeff, thanks for the interview. It's a great one. If you want to check it out, go to Strong Suit, suit is S-U-I-T, .com to check that out.

Chad: Is that a podcast?

Joel: You can also go to We put it there, too. It is a podcast. Yes, so...

Chad: So, you cheated on me?

Joel: So, I knew what I was doing, obviously.

Chad: (Baby crying) Oh. I know. That's what happens. So, from my side, there's some pretty cool news. The Chad and Cheese podcast has combined strategic employment metrics. Yeah, we don't have any employment metrics, but we're working with Next, a wonderful gang over at Next, to launch our very first infographic. Is that cool, or what?

Joel: I can't even spell infographic. Is it two words or one? Is it hyphenated?

Chad: It's one. I just go ahead and smash that stuff together. It's what I'm used to. So, okay, so here's a quick tease. We're going to be talking about Turkey Day stuff. And actually, Next asked the question. So, if you had an option to skip Turkey Day, and actually, say it was work, would you do it?

Joel: I'm sorry. I'm confused. Would you skip Thanksgiving to go to work?

Chad: Well, would you use work as an excuse, I guess, is the big piece. Would you use an excuse like work to get out of Thanksgiving?

Joel: Why would anyone want to get out of Thanksgiving? Because they hate their family? They hate turkey or tofurkey? Vegetarian?

Chad: Yeah. Probably the former. I would say, yeah, sitting around with the family, eating turkey, taking naps. I enjoy[crosstalk 00:06:26]

Joel: Aren't you guys a tofurkey household?

Chad: Yeah, no. I mean, we're ... no.

Joel: So, you skip the vegetarianism on Thanksgiving?

Chad: Oh, yeah, there are certain days that we do that. I mean, I'd say probably 95% of the time we're vegan/vegetarian, but you know, on those days.

Joel: (Bell sound) I'm ringing the bell on all that stuff. Let's get to the show.

Chad: One last thing. I appreciate that. So also, the Chad and Cheese webinar that went on. Actually, I think Joel calls it the best webinar of all time. Go to A replay is available. It's called "The Future of Text Recruiting". Go check it out. Pretty cool stuff.

Joel: It was a great webinar. Very interactive and engaging.

Chad: Best of all time.

Joel: That's right. Alright. Big news. Google, which we never talk about, Google for jobs unveiled four enhancements to their search solution, I guess we'll call it.

Chad: Yep.

Joel: Three of them were kind of ho-hum.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: You could choose better location filtering from within two miles of where you are all the way to two-hundred, which is quite a span, but you could do that. Bookmarking the ones that you like. I'm forgetting the third ho-hum one because the big one was so big.

Chad: Salary. So, I mean salary is one of the reasons why the big one is an issue. So, salary, you know, obviously Google gives Indeed boot-to-the-ass on this one because we'll talk about that in a second, but the salary information that companies are not including, I think it was 85% of jobs do not have salary information. Well, guess what guys. Google is focused on the user and the user wants more information and you're not giving that information. So, that leads to number four, which is what, Joel?

Joel: Well, I want to go back to the salary thing because it's sort of a premonition on the major one.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: They're pulling salary data from sources like Glassdoor, PayScale, LinkedIn, and by the way, Indeed has salary information, but it's not included because Indeed has said "We're taking our ball and going home."

Chad: Boot-to-ass Indeed.

Joel: Not playing with this whole Google for jobs thing. So, Google's like, "Fine, okay." So, in the big update, and I think this is really intriguing and I'll tell you in a second, but the update is, you see a job. That job is duplicated over, let's say, four sites. Like three job boards as well as the company's site. The user can choose how they want to apply to that job based on whatever their preference is. So, above the job listing or the description, it'll say, you know, company name, little button, it'll say CareerBuilder, little button, Monster, little button, LinkedIn, whatever, and if you have accounts on those sites, you can choose to apply to that job through your Monster profile or CareerBuilder, et cetera.

Chad: Does not seem easy.

Joel: Number one, this is a great thing for job boards.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: The traditional boards that are playing with Google because we had always thought, well, eventually Google, just like their search engine, they're going to decide which duplicate content they want to show, and in most cases that'll be the ATS or eventually be the ATS, and the job posting on the job board will basically be invisible.

Joel: So, Google found a way to appease everyone, and say, "We're going to list all the sources for this job, and you, the user, can decide which one you want to send to the company." So, traditional job boards should be doing somersaults that Google is making this sort of consolation to them.

Chad: So, yes. Here's the thing. First and foremost, I wonder how many sources they're going to use on that because the amount of job boards that are going to be pushing information into Google, I mean, can you imagine the amount of apply buttons that would actually be up there? So I wonder how many ... because they're going to have to cap it.

Joel: Knowing Google, once you select one, you'll probably choose to do that for most of your ... that'll be your preference. That'll be your default. Because you're logged in using Google in most cases, so I mean, Google will figure that out I think over time.

Chad: Yeah, it's just the first interaction's going to suck. But, this is definitely a big boot-to-Indeed's-ass with regard to salary history like you talked about, and no salary, no traffic. Again, that is ... I don't know exactly how much traffic Indeed was reaping from the organic of Google, which is now pretty much gone, but now they're not going to be able to actually utilize that salary information and/or get traffic from, like you're saying, these apply buttons. Here's the big thing[crosstalk 00:11:57]

Joel: Indeed is not an option.

Chad: No.

Joel: You won't see Indeed, unless they decide to play ball, as an option to apply to a job. And let's face it. A lot of job seekers have an Indeed profile, which is easy to use. It's easy to apply that way. Indeed would be a great addition as on option for people to apply, but they're not even going to be on the playing field.

Chad: I can only envision Indeed as Oliver Twist in this scenario. Asking for more gruel, coming back to Google, saying, "Can I please have the traffic gruel?"

Joel: I think Google will let them kiss the ring whenever they want

Chad: Oh yeah they will! Oh yeah they will!

Joel: But I don't ... I think Indeed will come kicking and screaming to do that. Yeah. Which is funny because if you remember with Indeed, there were a few job sites that would never advertise on Indeed. They'll take the organic traffic, but you know what? The two that I'm thinking of, and I won't mention names, eventually came around to buying ad space on Indeed. So, if Indeed does acquiesce and come to Google at some point, it will be very apropos based on the history of the whole thing with Indeed and job boards.

Chad: And you know we are going to be waiting for that day, Indeed. You know we are. So, and here's the big thing though. For companies, and this is who should really listen to this, okay? You have the opportunity ... the reason that Google is allowing all these sources to apply is because you don't give enough information in your application process. Your user experience sucks. It's horrible, and until you fix that shit, guess what's going to happen? Candidates are going to continue to go around you through these different job sites because your process sucks. So, until you fix your process, guys, this is the kind of shit you're going to have to put up with.

Joel: Yep. You know, Sackett, Tim Sackett, who was on guest host or guest recently, he and I got into kind of a social media thing and his thought is that people automatically just go to the company's apply process.

Chad: No, they don't.

Joel: And I kind of disagree with that because I think they're going to go with what's easiest.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Similar to how, you know, what site do you want to use to go buy something? Well, Amazon. It's super easy. I've got an account already. It's like super easy. It's, you know, user intuitive, right? So, in a way, to me, this sort of forces everyone, particularly the ATSes to make an Amazon-like apply process because if users on Google default to the easiest way to apply, to men that's what they're going to do. They're not going to say, "Oh, I got to do the company because that's what I should do[crosstalk 00:14:50]

Chad: Well, the applicant tracking systems don't want to have a complex apply process. I mean, that's building complexity in their process. They don't want that. It is the companies who are using these platforms that are jacking up this process, jacking up the user experience, and they're trying to make it better by putting this layer of cosmetics over it to make it look all warm and fuzzy until you hit the apply process, and then everything turns to shit. That's the problem. You're not giving them information. They deserve to know what the salary is, or at least the salary range. There's more information that they deserve as well. Not to mention they don't deserve a shitty apply process.

Joel: So, do you think this move by Google will decrease the number of applicants through an ATS?

Chad: I think it will, and I think that the smart organizations will be quick on this, and they'll understand that you got to play the game, and if I want to spend less money on job boards and I want to be able to leverage Google in this specific sense, this is what we need to do. The ones ... but there are going to be many of those talent acquisition leaders that are out there that, I mean, they're just going to do what they've done for years. They're going to pay to do it the old, same, dumb way.

Joel: I think a job seeker ... I think many job seekers believe the only way to really apply to a job is to go to the company site, and if they learn a behavior through Google's job search that, "Oh, I can actually use my LinkedIn profile" or "I can actually use my five year old Monster profile, I'm going to do that because I've already done it, it's easy, I understand it," et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I think ... I don't know how this is going to play out, but I think people will gravitate toward the easiest, biggest brand site that they're already on as opposed to going to an ATS and filling things out from the start. Yeah, this will be very interesting in terms of what behavior people use or what people side with. I hope that Google releases data on, even if it's just percentage-wise, like what is the most popular? Do people pick ATSs over job boards and what percentage is that.

Chad: I know one of the big reasons why they've moved this way is because they're definitely trying to force a better apply process and more information out of employers. That's what they're trying to do, and they've said that. So, if you care about your process, if you care about the customers that are coming to your website, not the clients, I mean, not the candidates, but your brand? Start to wake up, and do this shit right, guys.

Joel: Yeah. If they wake up and go, "Wow, no one's applying through our ATS anymore, this might be why. It will force company's hands to make it simple to apply to jobs. And then the robots will figure out how to prescreen them anyway. (Bell sound.)

Joel: Let's go to our next set of stories, automation, which tends to be at the forefront. You got some good news that you shared this week on automation on the legal front.

Chad: Yeah, so it's pretty cool. This is our "Robots give lawyers boot-to-the-ass". So, this kid, actually a couple of years ago, his name is Josh Browder. He created this app called, it's really a chat bot. It's called "Do Not Pay" and it automates parking ticket appeals. So, he just did it for himself and his friends and family. Apparently they get a shit-load of parking tickets, but to date, this chat bot has helped more than four hundred thousand people save eleven million dollars in fines. (Applause sound) And dude, that's without any charge whatsoever, so that was so cool. Browder, who is now nineteen years old, and go figure, he is a computer science major at Stanford.

Joel: Shocking.

Chad: He's out to change the divorce institution overall from the standpoint of interacting with lawyers because about 95% of divorces are uncontested, which those uncontested divorces in some cases can cost up to ten grand. So, (Baby crying) that's a lot of money, dude. That's a lot of money.

Joel: And you and I are unfortunately ... Anyway, well to associated with that kind of ... Anyway, so yes, divorces will be free in the future, which is great, so more people will get divorced and society will continue going down the tubes, but anyway, at least it will be free.

Chad: But, yeah. Pretty much at the end of the day ... and he's gotten funding, Venture Capital Funding, from Greylock Partners and he's using AI from Watson and it's really cool because they're pulling all the documents together in Watson, creating a chat bot, and just, again, it's all process oriented. And this is what we've talked about for like finance, doing your taxes, you know, TurboTax, or any of these different processes or routines, if they are routine, you can get technology to do that for you, to be able to deliver the right documents, to be able to do these different things and this nineteen year old has got it figured out. And this could obviously dramatically impact this industry.

Joel: You know, I think we think so much in terms of automation displacing, you know, blue collar workers, people who build stuff and drive places and I think more and more we're going to see white collar folks not being as safe as they think they are. I mean, legal in particular, I mean, so much of legal is filling out forms that are really just complicated, and people don't want to spend the time to do it because it's a pain in the ass, and if a chat bot or compute program can basically fill in the blanks with the information that it needs and then fill in the form and then it knows where to send the form, and then send your receipt that hey, the county, or the state or wherever it is it needs to go. "Got it. Here's your Docket Number" or "Here's the case number." Yeah, a lot of work that lawyers do is going to be sort of off the shelf. And I really think it affects the paralegals that are the ones doing the lesser work in legal forms. You know, the ones that are doing that kind of work. So, paralegals in particular are probably going to be really tough. I think good lawyers that, you know, have to talk to people and describe the process will still be, you know, employed, but some of those positions are going to be, you know, challenged.

Chad: If it's uncontested, it's a little bit different between a contested divorce and an uncontested divorce. A lot different. But, his quote was, which I love, "I'm trying to replace all these lawyers charging hundreds of dollars an hour just to copy and paste." And that's exactly what's happening.

Joel: Yeah, I agree. And how many other professions does that impact? Probably a ton. Like, we already know in the recruiting space, like, what information do you need to have an application? Okay. What's your name? When were you born? Where do you live? How old ... you know, like can you drive? Do you have a license? Are you a U.S. citizen? Some of those things are fill in the blank, and a lot of those things are prescreening questions because if you're not a U.S. citizen, you can't work for us.

Chad: Chat bot stuff, man. Yep. Nope.

Joel: If you don't have a license, you can't drive for us. So, yeah, the bot revolution or devolution marches on. But, there is hope for us humans. According to a Wall Street Journal article this past week, twenty-one million jobs will be created as a result of robotics, automation, AI, et cetera, so although sixty million jobs might be lost, and I'm just making that up. I don't know how much it is, and I know we've said that number before probably, but twenty one million or so jobs will be created, which if you look at robotics, self-driving cars, I mean definitely some jobs and opportunities are going to be made as a result of technology. That's always how it works anyway.

Chad: Yeah, well, you see, we're training ourselves out of many of these jobs as it is. I mean. You take a look at the chat bot we were just talking about, but remember when we were really young and there was a filling station attendant, and they would do the gas. They would check your fluid. They would do all that stuff, but that's gone. Automation. I go to Kroger a few times a week in the morning to be able to get fresh fruit for breakfast, and do I go to an actual human being to check me out? No, I go through the self-checkout. I mean, we're teaching ourselves how to get rid of these jobs. And that's continued on so many different fronts. So, yeah, I see exactly where there could be definitely jobs created, and there's so much research that's being done on this right now, I mean, really it's crazy.

Chad: Some of it says, obviously, that yes, twenty-one million jobs are going to be created, but on the back end, twice as many or even more are going to be lost. I don't want to be the Luddite 2.0 saying, "Oh my God, kill all the robots." But we definitely have to take a look at this from a standpoint of understanding how these technologies are really going to impact the workforce in the market. That's the biggest issue.

Joel: Sure, and societies and governments and all kinds of stuff. I will say, because you went back in history there, like, a lot of the jobs that exist today didn't exist when we were kids. Like, we never would have thought about being an SEO or being a robotics whatever or AI or cryptocurrency person. Like, a lot of the jobs that will be, we don't even know what the hell they are. So, that's a positive, right?

Chad: Yeah, the hard part about that is getting the skillsets, getting skilled labor force to get into those jobs. I mean, take a look at Moore's Law and how fast technology's moving, right? It is moving fast. It's doubled up since they've actually created Moore's Law, so I mean (Bell sound) It's ridiculous. That's the hard part. It's like, yeah, jobs are going to be there, but are we actually going to have people that can fill those jobs. There's so many different bad and good fronts.

Joel: The good news, Chad

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Robots will never displace this podcast because robots get smarter and this show continually gets just dumber.

Chad: (Laughs) Very good point. That sends us into a very happy weekend.

Joel: Yes, and diversity recruiting, Chad, I don't get it. Why do employers suck so badly at diversity recruiting?

Chad: Diversity recruiting? That's a very, very heavy question, Joel, and I appreciate you extending that to have me answer it. No, seriously. Seriously. We in talent acquisition, we're talking about many of these different things like AI and technology, and we become generalists in many cases, which means we're a jack of all trades and we're a master of none, which means we don't know what the hell is going on expertise-wise. And one of those areas is diversity recruiting. It's hard. It's not easy, which is one of the reasons why you need to have a partner like America's Job Exchange to help you out. AJE utilizes a unique mix of targeted job distribution programmatic ... those types of things to target the right types of candidates for your jobs, the right types of diverse candidates, not just going into a diverse pool and saying, "Give me all you got." Actually, looking for individuals with the type of skillsets that you're looking for, for those specific types of jobs.

Chad: So, what you can do, actually, believe it or not, the show has discounts.

Joel: What?

Chad: Yep. I'm not kidding. You can go to, that's cheese, as in what you put on the pizza. C-H-E-E-S-E. because everybody loves pizza, man.

Joel: Everything's better with cheese, right?

Chad: That's exactly right. Everything's better with cheese, but America's Job Exchange has been doing this diversity recruiting, overall job distribution, compliance, and those types of things for over ten years. And to be able to align yourself with a group, with a team that know what the hell they're talking about is pretty important. And, what's more important is looking in the mirror and knowing, "You know what, I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about." So, get somebody who does. Go get 'em.

Joel: Love it. Love it. You mentioned programmatic there for a second, which is a nice segue to our next story, Cielo. I guess I'm saying that right. You shared a story about them this week about high-volume hiring. What's up with them?

Chad: Yeah, it doesn't really seem sexy until you get into it. We talk about all this different technologies in silos, so Chat Bots, and programmatic targeted ads, and texting and so on and so forth, and it's really cool. The thing is, being able to stitch all of those things together into one product, that's hard. And Cielo was able to do it for high-volume recruiting. So, the product was actually created for all those high-volume, revolving door gigs, mainly hourly types of positions. And it's funny because we literally were talking with Joe and the next team, gang, about the possibility of high-volume recruiting being one of our huge target areas and things that we would be talking about because it's so important. And there's so much that's going on. And the very next day, the Cielo press release dropped. And Adam Godson, who is the VP of technology solutions over at Cielo, I know him, so I thought, "Hey, I'm going to go ahead, reach out to him, and ask him 'What the hell is this all about?'" It sounds good from the outside, but what the hell, I mean, what is. And as you said, from the press release, it's really cool because they focus on the outreach piece, programmatic outreach, getting those jobs out there, targeting specific types of individuals, bringing them in through the apply process, screening, and then getting the interview scheduled. And all of that happens within seven minutes.

Joel: Yeah, what was the example of the weekend posting, and then by Monday, they had like three hundred interviews set up already?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Was that the example that you gave?

Chad: Yeah I told them, I said, "Dude, that's all well and good, right, but show me results. What the hell are you talking about?" So, one of his clients actually said, on a Friday night, go figure, they're getting ready to shut down COB and one of the clients called and said, "Hey, look, we need to have more candidates for next week. We're doing a big push. This is what's going on." And by Monday morning, they had three hundred and fifty five interviews scheduled by that Monday morning, and the power, I mean, this is the power of mobile. Seriously. And during the weekend when people really aren't looking for jobs, this just shows how powerful the technology is to be able to target and to be able to go through that whole process.

Chad: And the thing that we haven't talked about yet, which I think is pretty cool is that they use texting to be able to keep the candidates warm who are scheduled for interviews. So, when you get scheduled, you begin to receive texts just to be able to confirm, right, that you're there, that you're good for this. And those individuals, those candidates who do not respond, they get an actual human being reaching out to them, saying, "Hey, this is Sally," or "This is Freddy" or whoever it is, "Just want to make sure you didn't have any questions for the interview. Everything good?" That kind of thing. So, they're really trying to tie everything together.

Joel: Now, what I find really cool about this is they're using ads to drive traffic to the opportunities, and when I first heard you talking about this, I thought, oh, this is similar to Intello or some of the outreach, so they're looking at profiles and then they're emailing people. They're reaching out to people in some way and that's sort of a push campaign. This to me was cool because it was more of a pull campaign. So, it was using programmatic advertising, finding targeted people where they live and breathe, Facebook, Twitter, et cetera, and then driving traffic through those ads and then engaging, once they came in through the ad. And then I assume some sort of prescreening sequence, which then said, "Oh, we'd love to talk to you if you have time on Monday. What works for you?" The fact that you can do that on Friday and then automatically go through and have three hundred and fifty plus people waiting to be interviewed or scheduled to be interviewed, right, on Monday is just really, really cool. Because ten years ago that wasn't possible and today it is.

Chad: And we know. I mean it used to be when newspaper was the big push for jobs. When you would look for a job, you're waiting for that Sunday paper. That's not how people look for jobs now. Generally, Monday is the day that everybody is searching for a job, but because of this mobile AI first kind of technology that they're putting in place, they're able to get past that, which I thought was incredibly cool, and I've got to say, you know, it does not surprise me to see RPO actually do something at this scale with this type of process and being able to pull together this many types of technologies and get it right. And I think companies who really want to get this high-volume piece right, they should start looking at RPO's and/or seeing if they can replicate it. I doubt that they can, but they should definitely start looking at RPO.

Joel: Yeah, and as we know, recruiting is a very reactionary job. Right? I'm sure this rep came in the door Thursday, "Oh crap." Friday, "Let's do this." Push a button, bam, Monday we have people. It's a very reactionary thing, so this kind of fits into just the mentality of what recruiters and how they think anyway, so kudos. Well, the bell says move on, so let's move on.

Chad: Boom!

Joel: News out of the Anonymous Employer Review world. I'll start with, actually, Blind. A lot of people listening may not know what blind is. Blind is native app on Android and IOS, and it's sort of a ... I call it Yik Yak with degrees. So, Yik Yak, for those who remember, was a mobile app where you were totally anonymous. There was no registration. There was nothing. And you just spouted off crazy shit. And the app is now gone because people realized that the shelf life of just crazy commentary doesn't last very long, so Yik Yak died. But Blind is like Yik Yak, but you have to have a confirmed work email address to use the site. So, you can still spout off stupid stuff, but your company is sort of tied with your commentary, so if you say something, PayPal or Amazon or wherever you work is tied to that. There's commentary on MNA stuff, who's buying what, how to get a job somewhere, how to sell a company something, or who do I get to talk to. Obviously career is part of the anonymous stuff that's on there.

Joel: But the news out of the company this week is that they're moving beyond the app-only platform and moving into the desktop...

Chad: They're looking to drive revenue

Joel: So, ultimately ... Yes. Well, yeah. I mean, they've got six million in investment money. I mean, the anonymous thing is sort of risky. I'm sure they're going to try to get as big as possible and then sell it, hoping that the timing's right. Although we live in a world where anonymous is being challenged, which sort of brings us to the next story in this sort of category.

Joel: Glass Door, who probably all the listeners know, is in court all the time. They may not know that, but Glass Door is constantly being sued or companies that have bad things said about them want to get IP addresses of the commentators and who they are. You do have to register on Glass Door. Part of their terms of service is that they may have to reveal your identity if there's a lawsuit or the powers that be say, "Tell us who this is." So, liability is still a thing, so you shouldn't do that or slander companies.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: So, Glass Door's in court to reveal this source. We live in a world where people don't like bullying. They don't like sexism. They don't like harassment. And anonymity sort of breeds off of all of that. So, you know, I guess the question I would have is, aside from these news reports, how much longer is anonymity going to be a thing? Is there a future for it?

Chad: That's a good question. I think there is a future for it, I just think you can't say stupid shit. I mean, that's a fairly easy mantra. The reason why these anonymous users are going to be, shall I use the term, unmasked is because they said stupid shit. They talked about fraud and abuse. And those, especially for some of these companies who are federal contractors, that's big. That could perspectively impact hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars in revenues, obviously for federal contracts. So, to be able to go on and anonymously say these things, you better be able to point to something. You better be able to say, "Fraud and abuse charges that were here." Right? And being able to point to something that actually exists as opposed to perspectively making something up or just talking shit.

Joel: Yep. Which I also think there may be a compromise. I don't know if it was last week or a past show, we talked about LinkedIn getting into sort of the feedback game. And the way that they sort of identify someone is you won't be able to give feedback on a company unless you are actually an employee of the company based on your LinkedIn profile. Now, you can game that, but it's kind of a pain in the ass. So, they've found a way by ... You can't review it unless Company A is actually in your profile currently. So, you'll have anonymous feedback, but it will have some form of identity because the only people who can give feedback, you know, have this in their profile.

Joel: So, I think there's probably a middle man somewhere, but I don't think it'll ever be Yelp, where you have a profile and your picture's on it, and you know, like there's a real return address on your comments, but to me LinkedIn is trying to work on a compromise. I think comparably, another sort of competitor of Glass Door, you know, they use a lot of charts and graphs and sort of, you know, feedback isn't more like text based. So it's less sort of flame-y and sort of bullying because it's based on graphs and sort of charts, so there's probably a middle there somewhere. I think we both agree there's no transparency feedback, you know, organic, raw, sort of commentary has a place in the world. I think it's just a matter of how exactly we're going to get that in the future.

Chad: And for anybody who's out there who wants to flame a company, you better make sure you have gone through the appropriate processes, and you've done it officially. Because, man, if you're doing it anonymously, you're going to be unmasked. That's all there is to it. And obviously, this sets the precedent.

Joel: Sets the precedent. Well, Chad, with Blind going to desktop, it means there's another thing companies are going to have to monitor in terms of anonymous employer reviews out on the web.

Chad: Yeah, I can't imagine doing any of that by hand.

Joel: The time is now for a tool to help companies monitor all the reviews out there on the web, and fortunately, there is a tool.

Chad: The time is now. I like how you said that. That's awesome.

Joel: The time is now.

Chad: The time is now or you get a boot to the ass. That's what happens.

Joel: A boot to the ass for ... Anyway, so Ratedly, R-A-T-E-D-L-Y, a sponsor of this show, and full disclosure, my company, does just this. We go out and we monitor about a dozen or so employer review sites. Blind will be one of those as they venture out onto the desktop. So, if you're looking for a company that will help you monitor, make sense of all the noise out there, Ratedly should be a company you take a look at.

Joel: And for a limited time until the end of the month, I believe, we're having a contest where you can get a free year of Ratedly. That's right, I said a free year of our anonymous employer review service.

Chad: Now we have contests! We have discounts and contests! This is the best show ever.

Joel: We have 100% discounts this week, contests. Just go to Ratedly, There'll be a link there that you can just submit your email address, and if you share the contest with your social network, you'll get infinitely more chances to win, so there's an incentive to share with your friends. Again, that's Ratedly, If you don't want to enter the contest, you can subscribe to Ratedly for the low cost of $147 per month.

Chad: Cheap. Cheap.

Joel: Let's talk about Leap-Woo.

Chad: Leap-Woo.

Joel: We're combining two startups into one.

Chad: Yeah, let's go with Leap-Woo.

Joel: Leap.AI, let's talk about them first.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, people who hate resumes now get a boot to the ass because they're not dying. As we saw last week with LinkedIn and the integration with Microsoft Word, which I think is genius. You get a company like Leap that is doing something, I mean, not something as cool and as integrated, but I think it's like a baby step of doing just that. So, it's a resume service. You plug your resume into the system, and it makes it not suck is pretty much what the CEO says. I'm paraphrasing, of course.

Joel: It's Matching 2.0. This is the dream of Trovix for those that remember. Trovix was submit your resume. Now, it didn't help you make a better resume.

Chad: Right.

Joel: This will help you make a better resume with quote/unquote AI, and then it does match you with positions, right?

Chad: Yeah

Joel: It just makes you a better resume.

Chad: No, it matches you with positions. It also has testing. You do like behavioral testing and things like that. I mean, I actually went in because there's a free initial sign up and I started to create an account. And their LinkedIn popped up to be able to say, "Hey, do you want to log in with LinkedIn?" Generally, when you do that, it's going to populate most of the fields and I thought, well, my LinkedIn has a good amount of information on it. I'll go ahead and use this. And the damn thing ... All it did was populate my name and then use the summary in this like, block summary. It did nothing other than that. So, you're probably going to have to take half an hour to get your information into the system, take the behavioral tests, and all that other happy horse shit.

Joel: Alright, that's Leap.AI, right?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: So, Woo.IO. All these dots. Man, these are hell to keep up with.

Chad: AI. IO.

Joel: So, - Very similar. They don't do the make your resume un-suck. But you put in a profile as an employer for the job. This is fairly lengthy. You put in your profile as a job seeker. Fairly lengthy. Now, they tie this in with AI and it's smart, and blah, blah, blah. But as I'm looking at this stuff, I just think ... remember It's Big?

Chad: Oh my God, yes.

Joel: And Climber? I mean the underlying problem with these, like you just said, it takes the job seeker forever.

Chad: It's ridiculous.

Joel: The employer ... In order to make a match, a lot of data has to be thrown into the engine, right, to make that match happen.

Chad: Right.

Joel: And unfortunately, humans don't want to spend all this time, especially with a startup that they don't even know, right?

Chad: Right.

Joel: And it's chicken and egg. You don't have candidates. The employers don't care. They're not going to think it's worth their time and vice versa. So, to me, this is just like matching 2017. It's the same thing wrapped in a different AI package. But the problem still exists in my mind.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: And I think their future is the same, unfortunately, for most of these folks.

Chad: This seems very much like matching of old is pretty much what you're saying. And all they're doing is slapping AI onto it. That's really it. You know, I think with Leap more than Woo, Leap/Woo ... that if a company like Google, I don't know a company like Google, would take that technology and integrate to ... make it easier, first of, slim it down, and then integrate into their Docs area where you throw a resume into the Docs and this automatically goes through, shall we say, resume assist, and it'd be much like a LinkedIn kind of scenario.

Joel: So, the companies that are going to get this matching thing right are the ones that you don't even know that you're being matched.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: So, Facebook knows that you share all this stuff about whatever and your friends are whatever. And LinkedIn knows you're connected with all these other people and you share this other stuff, and here's what's in your profile. And here's where I am located because I've got my phone with me and these small startups that want you to fill out stuff and do things ... to me, they're screwed. The people that are going to know you are the people that you use every day. Google, Facebook, Amazon, LinkedIn, Microsoft.

Chad: It's lifestyle.

Joel: It's lifestyle because they're going to be able to say, "Oh, you look like you'd be great for this job." Holy cow! It's like they know me, right? It's like when you buy on Amazon or what TV shows you watch. To me, that's the AI, that's the matching. That fill stuff ... I'm not going to bother with that. You need to know me somehow, and the companies that do are going to win and those that aren't, don't. So, Leap/Woo, good luck. But, it's a hell of a hard row for you to sew. Or sew to row or hoe to row or whatever that is. It's late and it's Friday, and I can smell the turkey. I'm getting hungry anyway because it's lunch time. But, anyway, we're at almost fifty minutes[crosstalk 00:49:40].

Chad: Oh, shit!

Joel: The longest show we've had in a long time. Everyone's tuned out. I'm tuned out. I say we shut it down and say "Adios."

Chad: Boot to the ass to the show!

Joel: Boot to eye, mother!

Intro: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single show. And check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit Oh, and you're welcome.

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