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Twitter Tells Job Posting Bots to Get Off Its Lawn! Is Indeed on thin ice?

It's December, Santa's Little Helpers, and the boys from HR's most dangerous podcast are taking on a wide range of topics this week, including:

  • Twitter is sick of your job posting bots and finally doing something about it.

  • Meetup gets acquired by WeWork, which could revive this old school recruiting fav from 10 years ago.

  • All-things-automation continues with janitorial bots at this major retailer, driverless busses (oh, how we would've loved a driverless bus at 15-years-old), and a real AI expert tells us what's really AI and what isn't AI.

  • The ice under Indeed's feet is starting to crack ... the boys go into what they're hearing from trusted contacts....

and more, baby!

It's 40 minutes you won't want back. Throw in a fat man and some reindeer, and you've got Christmas early this year. Speaking of Christmas, don't forget to show our sponsors some love: Sovren, America's Job Exchange, Ratedly and Nexxt. are just what your stocking wants this year.


Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brush opinions, and lots of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel : Welcome to December my little Santa's helpers. This is Chad and Cheese, the dudes behind HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman

Chad : I'm Chad Sowash and I'm totally creeped out about how you just said little Santa's helpers.

Joel : And F you. On this week's show twitter is telling bots to get off their lawn, Walmart is being overrun with janitorial robots, and the seeds of Indeed's demise are starting to sprout. It's not really AI unless it knows your favorite tune. We'll be right's back.

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Joel : Word up.

Chad : Word.

Joel : How was Thanksgiving?

Chad : It was amazing. It was a good time.

Joel : Yeah?

Chad : How about ... Well, I mean we did a Thanksgiving and after-Thanksgiving show if you didn't listen to it....

Joel : Well, I was high on tryptophan ... you know that ... during the show.

Chad : Yeah.

Joel : Yeah, and I've been out of town for a while. Let's get to the shout out shall we?

Chad : Yeah.

Joel : I know we're kind of stressed for time, so let's get on with the show.

Joel : Shout out to Caleb Pask. A loyal listener down in Dallas at AT&T.

Chad : AT&T crew.

Joel : Caleb, thanks for listening.

Chad : We did a show yesterday ... actually, a couple of days ago. We just dropped it yesterday ... with HiQ, so if anybody hasn't listened to that one, I want to give a shout out to

Mark Weidick.

Chad : We talked about updates of their David and Goliath court battle, negative industry impact, possibly, not just with us, but just global innovation. And then scraping bots and how to identify good actors from bad actors. It's a really pod. You should check it out.

Joel : Did you say a shart out?

Chad : Shart out.

Joel : Or shout out?

Chad : Well, it depends. It depends on your diet, so if it was...

Joel : It's not that kind of show. It's not that kind of show. I got to shout out to ZWD on Twitter, they dig us there. They want more turkeys in our show. They want more snark and embarrassing their companies and less Indeed, Google, Facebook, and Linkedin.

Chad : Yeah. Brent Healy gave us a little love on the hashtag Chad Cheese, thanking us for the monster history lesson and reminding us all that earning are historical not predictive. It's pretty simple, you have to know history or you're going to be doomed to repeat it. Good stuff Brent, thanks.

Joel : Brent is a loyal listener, we appreciate it Brent. And you like Jon Zila at Recruitics, you got a shout out for him?

Chad : Yeah. John and I this week had pretty much a snark/gif battle via email and I think he got the best of me. But there was the battle, the war rages on John, keep listening and look for more gifs coming in your email.

Joel : Little insider note, Chad and I typically have conversations that are just gifs.

Chad : Full conversations.

Joel : Yeah, we consider ourselves masters in the art of gifs. Shout out for me to Recruitcon, conference out in San Francisco that I spoke at on Wednesday, met some great people, some people from Wholefoods, groupon, our friends at Ellena from ... It will come back to me, I'll bring it back.

Chad : The tryptophan is killing you.

Joel : Well, I'm nervous, it's our first show.

Chad : And a shout out to Jacob Sten Madsen for giving the Chad and Cheese podcast love in the recruiting evolution Facebook group, really appreciate it, thanks for all the love guys.

Joel : You bet. And he's European, so it could be Yacob Steinmatsen or something, so yeah, love him, he loves the show.

Chad : You're so horrible.

Joel : Well, let's get into it. News out of Twitter this week from yours truly on, you can read about all my stuff there. Twitter is sick of the bots that are automatically Tweeting stuff, following people, DMing people ... You know what I'm talking about, like you follow someone and gets nuts, and so they're sick of it and they're slowly killing it, so that affects jobs.

Chad : There are like 48 million accounts that are bot created accounts on Twitter, that's ridiculous. Not to mention-

Joel : 15% of Twitter is bots.

Chad : I mean, you think of ... Obviously we've got all this controversy with the election and what not, but still on a day to day basis, the trolling, all the shit that happens on Twitter right now is just is totally bogus and they've got to do something about it. And it looks like they are.

Joel : They are. I mean, they've been getting their ass kicked by Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat ... God, I'm really struggling today. Snapchat, yeah. And the political landscape of the world of fake news and people affecting elections, Twitter is doing something about it. And this impacts companies, CareerArc comes to mind, but there are a ton. Go do a search on Twitter for #jobs, and see the number of sites that are just blasting jobs, sometimes jobs five to ten times a day. The same job or the same tweet. Those services are going away, so if you as an employer rely on Twitter to sort of blast your jobs and your getting results from that, it's going to be limited because Twitter is shutting it down.

Chad : I think they're going to shut down RSS feeds. I mean, it's pretty simple to hook an RSS feed into Hootsuite or something like that and let that run its course. Are they're looking to shut down like the Hootsuite's of the world and RSS feeds?

Joel : We're not quite sure or at least I'm not quite sure. I think that the sort of examples where you post a job and you click a little button that says, hey, I want to tweet this job out on my account, it doesn't look like they're going to crack down on that. What they're cracking down on is sort of the mass automation, the mass auto following, mass auto DMing, the things that are going on that we all know what it is and Twitter knows what it is, it's just time to cut it out.

Joel : I think certainly retweeting the same thing multiple times is going to get squashed by them, but if you just post a job and you tweet it once, I don't think you have anything to worry about even if it's automated through Hootsuite or your ATS or whatever. And even on Linkedin, if you post something ... A post on Linkedin you can push a post to Twitter, I don't think that would be affected at all. It's sort of that mass easily decipherable automation is going on that they're going to start shutting down.

Chad : Yeah, I think we'll probably reach out to our friend at CareerArc and find out, they're probably pretty neck deep in this right now, so they might be able to give us some good intel on it.

Joel : Yeah, I'm sure that they're very aware. I received an email because I'm a marketing person, and I get a lot of people that are doing this for marketing purposes and companies that do this. And got a notice that basically they were trying to do all they can or all they could to sort of continually black hat Twitter, and Twitter was getting really good at shutting them down and not letting them do stuff. If this is happening to the best of the best, the black hats if you will, the CareerArcs are going to have a lot of trouble sort of getting by with what they've being down in the past I would imagine.

Chad : Ouch, ouch.

Joel : New acquisition. WeWork acquired Meetup, which sounds like a weird sort of We work meet up.

Chad : $30 million, man.

Joel : 30 million, that's kind of loose change for Meetup, a company that's being around for a long time. That's kind of surprising. I mean, granted 30 million is a lot of money but WeWork has been around since like '03 '04. They were a huge impact on election in '04, if you remember correctly.

Chad : Right, talking about MeetuP, right? Meetup has ... It being like the different indivisible groups, and those types of groups use Meetup to be able to coordinate. You're right, the platform I would have though would have gone more than $30 million especially from a company like WeWork, who is worth like over 10 billion.

Joel : Yeah. They must have a ton of records, data contacts, but I probably did use Meetup at some point 10 plus years ago for marketing groups, SEO groups, things like that. But I haven't checked it forever. So, either Facebook killed it or social media killed it, but it has lost a lot of its luster. Hopefully, WeWork can bring it back because I think Meetup, at for a long time was an underrated recruiting tool and I knew a lot of recruiters who would go to groups and meetups where people they wanted to recruit were going and actually have a lot of success with that. Hopefully, WeWork can revive Meetup and become a real recruiting strategy again.

Chad : Yeah. For our listeners, Meetup, and let's separate this two real quick. Meetup is a social networking platform or service that allowed organizations to really pull together this online meetings offline. So, you could meet up somewhere and this groups could meetup and obviously do whatever they do, whether they're talking about an innovation, whatever it is, and it was good as Joel said for recruiters to be able to really target those types of groups and go after IT professionals or something of that nature. So that's really cool, and that was Meetup.

Chad : WeWork is entirely different. Really cool from the standpoint of redefining work pace where you use this platform to find workspace in an area. So if I'm in Austin this week or this month let's say, I go to Austin WeWork and I could find an office there that was more of like a collaborative type of office, and it's really cool. Obviously you have to pay for it. But it really is redefining virtual versus semi-virtual, and now it's kind of rework or WeWork [crosstalk 00:11:52] scenario. Rework WeWork.

Joel : Meetup is getting reworked by WeWork, how about that for a headline. I like it.

Chad : Jesus! That's a good line.

Joel : All right, man. Let's take a quick break and hear from a sponsor and talk a little bit about automation because we never talk about that.

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Joel : Chad is gotten a 15 minute more reprieve on his time, so we can slow down a little bit on the topics if we want to. I need some mood music or something to set the mood. Some automation news this week, what do you want to start with?

Chad : I'd like to start off with Walmart cleaning because it just sounds like the most fun, and shit that people really don't want to do in the first place. And we talk about automation, we talk about how it's stealing jobs and all the fun stuff, but in most cases it's just shit that people don't want to do. And this is a perfect example of that. I think the robot is called Emma, and it goes around and it scrubs the floors in Walmart. That's really what it does.

Joel : Finish this sentence for me, if you got time to lean?

Chad : You've got time to clean.

Joel : There you go. All right, so the old work adage that I had, I'm sure you had in your early jobs and like just don't just sit there. Well, now people can just stand there because the robots are going to clean while you get to lean I guess. But it takes out that minuscule task, the little piddly stuff that workers have to do. Now, I assume Walmart has actual people dedicate to cleaning the store, cleaning the floors. I assume these people are in jeopardy of losing their jobs.

Chad : Yeah, in some cases I've seen just services or companies that they obviously they contract to do those types of things, so maybe Emma is not a Walmart thing anyway, maybe they're just using another contractor that uses robots instead of human beings. But yeah, I see where you're coming from here.

Joel : Now, apparently a lot of Walmart employees this is sort like the gateway that they're looking at this thing and saying, is my job really free, or I'm going to be automated in the future? I got to think they should be worried. We've talked about self-serve cashiers, obviously Amazon is setting the standard for just walking into a store, getting what you need and you leave. I am personally a Sam's club person, I have their app, I scan a code, I pay through my phone and I walk out. I don't have to stand behind are people with tons and tons of items and checking them out. It's really, really convenient.

Joel : As a retail worker at Walmart, I would be a little bit scared about what this means in terms of automation of the store because I think that's coming.

Chad : Yeah, and even stocking. There are so many different things that we've seen in some of the warehouses that are out there today that are using robots to move pallets, and stoking, and those types of things. Yeah, this are all areas that are going to change, which means again, you need to be in that mindset of what I'm I going to do, where I'm I going to go with my career. Not everybody has that luxury, that's the problem. And that's going to be the unfortunate piece for us as a society.

Joel : Which leads us to the next news item, driverless school buses.

Chad : Yeah, bus drivers.

Joel : I have a question as a parent, and you as a parent as well. Would you put your child, any age on a driverless school bus?

Chad : Yeah, not as a prototype or a pilot. This would have to be something that would have to have been run for many years before I would trust something like that. But yeah, I guarantee there are parents that are out there that are like, oh yeah, it's all well and good, let's start our kids in this autonomous Uber and have them go to school.

Joel : So, assume you have to pilot for a decade with someone behind the wheel to prove that it's safe, or that it's going to be okay. And I would assume that there is got to be some sort of a central intelligence hub for these buses, similar to like an airline ... What are they called? Airline traffic controller, right?

Chad : Yeah.

Joel : So, someone can actually see in the bus our kids horsing around, are they beating up other kids, there is got to be some sort of a monitoring system for these buses.

Chad : Right. And they're going to walk into this, there are not going to run into it to go straight to level five. There are autonomous driving levels and they'll start with level three or four like you were talking about when somebody is actually sitting there reading a newspaper on their phone, or on Facebook or something like that and then they're going to slowly push them out. But you're 100% correct, who's going to monitor the actual kids on the bus? Is it going to be somebody in a central hub who is watching them on monitors and can actually through facial recognition say, "Hey little Johnny, quite messing with Suzy." You know what I mean? I mean this is all shit that we're talking about, right?

Joel : I can tell you as a 14 year old, I would have loved to have been on an autonomous bus because I could have gotten away with a lot of shit at 14-

Chad : You think you could?

Joel : With no driver on the bus.

Chad : Dude, this is enemy of the state shit dude. They're going to know exactly what you did, so old Joe or Josephine who was driving the bus before who kept looking up at that mirror every now and again to try to check out, you got with away with a whole lot of shit on that bus that you won't be able to do with this Will Smith Enemy of the State shit that's coming up.

Joel : Cameras in every seats, cameras on the floor, heat sensors, who knows what the hell is going to amount to this thing. A real life example, to bring it down a little bit, in our community a principal was actually killed because of a bus driver that my kids were actually on ... Not that it has any relevance to the story, but that probably could have been averted had it being an autonomous vehicle, not some idiot high on whatever behind the wheel whatever. I do think there are arguments that would be made that it's actually safer to have an autonomous vehicle or bus than it is to have an actual driver.

Chad : There will be, but it would have to be ... It would have to be tested and there would have to walk into this with somebody actually on the bus, there are going to start with level three then level four and then they'll go full blown level five Enemy of the state. You're going to walk on the bus, kids are going to walk on the bus and they're going to be able to tell your temperature, and they're going to say, yeah you have 101 degree temperature, get your ass off the bus, go home and have some chicken soup.

Joel : Or it'll do that like Star Trek, it'll wave a wand over you and heal before you come on the bus to get you okay.

Chad : That would be legit.

Joel : Let's be honest dude, the people who drive buses are not like road scholars, right?

Chad : No, they're generally part timers in most cases. I know individuals in the past who drive bus and they have other jobs as well. I mean, you take a look at our economy and there are so many people who hold more than one job, part-time jobs, full-time jobs, or what have you. This is the fabric of our economy.

Joel : Are you saying bus drivers are the fabric of our economy?

Chad : I'm saying those types of jobs.

Joel : Because if the kids came to the school, who's going to teach the kids and as Whitney Houston taught us, I believe the future are our children.

Chad : Oh, good God.

Joel : Teach them well, and let them lead the way. All right, enough about driverless school buses because I'm trending off into Whitney Houston land.

Chad : That's horrible.

Joel : Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry America. All right [crosstalk 00:21:12] go ahead, say it, what?

Chad : I said, and Europe, and Asia, and Anybody who's listening, we apologize.

Joel : I don't count down Europe, right? All right, what's really AI Chad? There was an article in Fast Company, which I guess you didn't read, so maybe I should talk about the real AI story. Fast Company interviewed the guy behind Uber, Amazon, a bunch of real AI solutions, and he sort of did an interview about what AI really is. And I think for our audience because if you're a consumer, you're hearing about all these AI quote products, what does that actually mean? Are these things really AI? And we've talked about it in the past, most of them are decision trees, they get a response and they have an answer, they get another response and they have an answer.

Joel : I thought it was important to read this story, share with the audience. This guy broke AI down in two components, one was sort of the front of the house and that was users need to believe that what they're talking to or what they're doing really know them. That they're not talking to a machine-

Chad : It's UX.

Joel : And the example that they had which I thought was great was, if you have a Google home device, which I do, I'm sure Chad does too, it knows your voice. So, if you say, "Hey Google, play my favorite song." Or, "Hey Google, turn on my favorite channel." It knows it because it knows my voice, it knows my behavior, it knows my history, that's real AI from a consumer facing standpoint.

Joel : From a back of the house standpoint, and I think this is probably more challenging in terms off development or real AI's when you can permanently separate a human from the programming or the learning component. The example the guy gave was, if someone gets an MRI at a hospital, and it can automatically without a doctor telling it what to do or programming it, cross-reference your MRI with thousands of others and determine what you have, the severity ... I'm not a doctor, so whatever that language is, that's real AI. If a doctor doesn't have to get involved to give you a diagnosis or get your diagnosis for you, that's real AI because a human is totally devoid of participation.

Chad : Right. Let's think about this in the hiring world because we talk about AI machine learning, all that shit all the time. It has to be predictive, and it has to understand context. If you take a look at all the AI that's out there today, it has to, if it is AI really, it has to understand years of hiring decisions, why did you make these hiring decisions, and also retention. So that it can help all the way through in being able to choose the right types of individuals who will obviously come in and work well within the organization because they stay retained. Not to mention also all the employee summary information and so on and do forth.

Chad : It's got to take all these data and then be more of a contextual and predictive measure providing you with the right candidates. That's what it has to be able to do. So, if it doesn't do all of that, and it doesn't learn from history and what's happening day to day, then it's really not to the point of AI where it's helping, really making decisions but helping you make better decisions.

Joel : Yeah. And I think the historical context is really important. If you look at what companies are in a position to know where did you graduate from school, what degree did you have, what was your first job, what was your second job, what did you do, what was the title, what were your endorsements or information or contacts, what were your projects from that job. To me it's like ding, ding, ding, Linkedin. Linkedin in association with their sugar daddy Microsoft, is in a really good position to understand a job seeker from the moment they go to college to that first, second job to understand, hey, you've done this, based on that, we think this is a great opportunity. And hey employer, this is a great candidate for you because of their sort of historical journey.

Joel : To me, that's where AI really comes in and we really get into something that's matching what we've being talking about, matching for a long time. To me, if the employer doesn't have to get involved and the candidate doesn't have to really even look for a job, that to me is like when we get to a nirvana for employment. And maybe I would say Linkedin and Microsoft are poised to do that, I think Facebook could do it, and I think Google could do it as well. All the other players, I don't see it.

Chad : Yeah. I think simply we go back to the Walmart piece, you've got a piece of machinery that can do this little tasks that are kind of getting you to that point, that's where we are at right now, being able to understand more and [inaudible 00:26:41] context. That's where we're going. But to be able to classify as AI today, I think it's definitely over classifying it because it's not, not yet.

Joel : Overselling.

Chad : That's it.

Joel : They're overselling AI. Yeah, because I tell a bot my name and then they ask me can I drive a car or do I have a license and then they say, "Oh, here are some driving jobs." That's just decision trees stuff, that's not AI. And we'll we get there? Probably. It will take, but don't get hornswoggled into believing that is what it isn't. And yes, I said hornswoggle because we're in the mid-west and hornswoggle is in our lexicon.

Joel : Okay. To me, we're getting to the mid of the show, if you've stuck around this long, you'll be rewarded by this next segment, which is laying the groundwork for a lot of stuff that we're going to be discovering in terms of Indeed and the struggles they're having, will have, the struggles that companies are having with Google for jobs and what's going on there. I'll let you sort of frame it first Chad, you were on a webinar with KRT, which is an agency. And they talked about Google for jobs and some of the data, what was some of the highlights for you from that experience?

Chad : I had two major take aways, number one, only 37% of fortune 500 companies are being indexed into Google for jobs. And this is research that KRT is doing. The bulk of companies are not actually getting their jobs into Google for jobs, the actual THE search engine, that everybody uses every single day. So, that was number one.

Chad : Number two, AdWords pricing around jobs or job terms, go figure, this is not going to surprise you at all, has increased dramatically. This is going to affect obviously this entire market, which I think that was Googles plan in the first place, to be able to start win back that search traffic that they really weren't getting before, at least staying with them and then also being able to monetize it where it was going to the Google for jobs at the time, which Indeed called themselves, and now it's going to the actual Google for jobs.

Joel : I think your term for that was, boot in the ass, I'm I right on that one?

Chad : Gave them a boot in the ass, that's for sure.

Joel : KRT, apparently those were, was it 37%?

Chad : Yeah, 37%.

Joel : 37% are in Google for jobs. Now, my guess is fortune 500, a lot of them are posting on Linkedin, Career Builder, Monster etc cetera. But they're probably getting their jobs on Google for jobs through those job boards. But I think we both agree it's just a matter of time before they go directly to Google for jobs as opposed to going through a job board. And I fully expect that 37% number to go up significantly year over year, getting to at least 80% I would say in the next five years.

Chad : Yeah. And I would assume that that would happen fairly quick because we're also hearing rumblings that Indeed traffic, or the quality of Indeed traffic is going down dramatically as well. Their number of candidates, the amount of candidates-

Joel : That's Indeed's marketing department or sales department.

Chad : So, the quality of the traffic is actually going down dramatically. I mean, what do you do as a company? And Indeed is looking to raise their prices. And in some cases, it looks like they're looking to triple their prices. Some companies are ... At least to us, behind closed doors, are talking about 35% more and more. So, 30% increases, which is pretty incredible.

Joel : These are people that Chad and I know that we trust, that won't go on the record, but we have no reason to believe that they would lie to us because no reward for them. It seems to be Indeed is definitely increasing prices, 30% to 40% in some cases that we're hearing. These price increases are stretching budgets quite a bit from people that we're talking to. One of my contacts told me that they posted the exact same job at the exact same time on ZipRecruiter, which by the way ZipRecruiter is really in bed big time with Google for jobs. So, the ZipRecruiter job was definitely on Google for jobs. But this person received in 24 hours, I want to say 49 candidates from ZipRecruiter at a cost of two cents a resume or apply. And on Indeed that had 10 applicants as opposed to 49 or 50. And the cost was about six times more from Indeed.

Joel : This is one example of someone that's going to say, we'll going to shift more money to ZipRecruiter and less money to Indeed, and I have to think that's going to be a trend that can [crosstalk 00:32:03]

Chad : Oh yeah. And also we're also seeing Indeed start to mess with their organic listings. And I don't know if this is just a negotiation tactic to say, hey, either pay us or we're going to rip you out of, we're going to unplug you from the organic, or really diminish your returns from the organic. But again, I don't think that this is working out in their favor. They feel like this is a big hammer for them, but we just saw yesterday, which I thought was amazing, a case study of a client who was unplugged entirely from Indeed's organic listings, and their traffic just dropped off, just boomed into the basement. But it was picked up by Google for jobs and pretty much that traffic was replaced almost overnight by Google for jobs without spending any money, ridiculous.

Joel : Which is money that probably would have gone to Indeed because historically that person would have been, Oh hell, all my traffic is gone, I need to pay Indeed to get back on their index, get back in terms of advertising on Indeed. Now, that person says, F Indeed, Google for jobs is replacing all the traffic that I used to get from you for free.

Chad : This is so reminiscent of Monster in it's heyday. To be quite frank, they had to do stupid shit and they were ass holes in some cases where the negotiation practice was, well, screw you. You're not going to pay us, then guess what? You're not going to get X. And I hope this is not what we're going to see from Indeed. I hope that's not the case, I'm not saying that that's what's happening, but when you're talking about messing with all these different moving parts and clients ... I mean, I had more than one client actually reach out to me and say, I'm confused about the pricing because every time a rep comes to me, it's a different price and they've changed things. And then they've also started to take away our unlimited messaging abilities, and they're making us pay differently for that.

Chad : I mean, there are just all these different things that are happening at this point, it almost feels like indeed is in panic mode.

Joel : Yeah, which I think they have been since Google for Jobs launched. And I think the mass advertising, offline advertising that they've being doing is a sign of sort of saying like, oh shit, let's get the traffic back up because I'm sure internally they're seeing traffic down, people going directly through Google for jobs directly to job boards. They're trying to supplement that traffic through traditional advertising and trying to figure it out on the way as to what they do, raising prices is certainly a way to help fund those TV ads to get that traffic in. But we don't know internally what traffic is and if the TV commercials are supplementing what they were getting from Google. If they are, they're going to have to raise prices because commercials on CNN and what not are a lot more expensive than getting that Google organic ranking for Houston jobs that they used to enjoy.

Chad : It's not sustainable. We talked about this months and months ago when they made the decision, they being Indeed made the decision not to play with Google for jobs. To be able to regain the lost traffic that I guarantee they're seeing, they're going to have to spend more money on AdWords. We just found out that AdWords is actually costing more than it used to for AdWords especially when it comes to jobs. That has actually gone up more, it's going to cost them more today just than what they were doing before and they have to up the ante on what they were doing before because of lost traffic.

Chad : Second, you can't continue ... I know from my Monster days, you cannot continue to spend the type of dollars on traditional advertising like TV advertising and create half a million dollar Ads, it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable unless you raise prices dramatically.

Joel : Yeah. And as long as people can go to ZipRecruiter or whoever else and get a lot bigger bang for a lot less buck, that's what they're going to do. And consumers are much more savvy now than they were 10 years ago. Would you agree with that?

Chad : Oh yeah.

Joel : It's going to be much harder for Indeed to just charge something and people sign it and be done with their rubber stamping. People are actually looking at how much resumes cost, and how many candidates are getting from certain sources, and the scrutiny on where they want to put their dollars and post their jobs is getting tougher and tougher. I think like we said, we knew when Google for jobs came on the scene, we knew it was going to challenging for Indeed. We've continually talked about and we're sort of starting to see the sprouts of what is happening with Indeed, what people are saying, what Indeed's reaction is to what's going on and I think we both agree non of it points at anything good for Indeed in the future.

Chad : No. And I've heard only good things about ZipRecruiter. In this conversation ZipRecruiter next and Career builder. These are the opportunities for these companies and companies like them to be the good guys, to be the here, to come and say you know what, that's bullshit, I can't believe they're doing that to you, but guess what? We're going to hook you up and this is what we're going to do. It's just play the hero, jump in there and I hope once again, Indeed figures stuff out because this is not ... Again, you take a look at history, this is not how you want to treat the market, this is not how you want to treat your clients.

Joel : All right, let's do over under one year for Indeed to start getting their unique content onto Google for Jobs.

Chad : In a year, I'd say they have to within a year.

Joel : So under?

Chad : Yeah.

Joel : I'll say under too. I don't think they can ignore it.

Chad : Like I said, and this is the boot in the ass podcast, if you haven't listened to that one guys, you have to go back and listen to boot in the ass podcast. There are going to be Oliver coming back for more growl it's all there is to it, man. They need to, they need to beg for it because ... And like you said, Google will say, yeah, come on in, join the party. They totally get that. But they're not going to be able to continue to do what they're currently doing.

Joel : I will say that one of the contacts did say that Indeed still has the best database to search, which I think is a big plus for them, which I also think ties into Google for jobs really nicely because most people would agree that applying through Indeed is pretty user-friendly. If searching for jobs on Google for Jobs shows you the job and says, hey, are the ways you can apply to this job. If indeed has a really good pool of data or people that are in it, and people know that it's easy to apply through Indeed, there is a really good chance that they'll choose Indeed to apply through Google for Jobs. But guess what, if Indeed isn't even playing, no one is going to Indeed to apply anymore.

Chad : And that database with entropy much like Monster's. I mean, it will entropy, so they better make that switch, they better make the plan very quickly because to me it's obviously a kick in the nuts but it's the smart play for them. It's the smart play for them.

Joel : Well, it just gets curioser and curiouser. Unfortunately, Indeed has coal in and stocking the share [crosstalk 00:39:41] but hopefully who doesn't have coal is our listeners because we love them and we try to give them the best every week with great content hopefully, and we appreciate everyone out there and hope that they have a great December leading up to Christmas. We'll continue being here week in and week out talking about these issues and Indeed will certainly be at the forefront as companies decide on where they spend their money going into next year. We'll get the nitty gritty on where people are going and what contracts look like etc cetera. And we'll be here talking about that on the show.

Chad : As we get closer to more holidays, Joel will become more Sappy, just so everybody knows that. And definitely listen for our firing squads to be able to take a look at what's going on on startups and check out, we've being making some changes to the site and we appreciate the listenership.

Joel : Yep. And #ChadCheese, we will give you a shout out more than likely if you say something smart, snarky, or just intelligent. Just call Chad looking and you'll get a shout out. Go Bucks, big 10 title this week, we need that playoff spot, and-

Chad : Knock on wood.

Joel : We need Joe Shaker - Shaker advertising to cry in his eggnog. We out.

Chad : We out.

Outro: This is been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single show. And check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit, oh, and you're welcome.

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