TURKEYS: Indeed, Randstad, SHRM and...

It’s Thanksgiving week, which can only mean one thing: Chad & Cheese are doing everything in their power not to work… and unleashing the annual Jive Turkey Episode.

From ZipRecruiter’s ghost-town podcast and SHRM’s ivory-tower cosplay to dystopian AI layoffs, PE-fueled corpse-stripping, MLS Messi magic, fantasy-football carnage, Boston Market trauma, Google Gemini’s Netscape moment, and a €6K bargain-bin spy who torched his entire career — it’s the feast you didn’t know you needed.

Plus, special guest turkeys from JT, Mo, Julie, Alen, Michelle, and the rest of the industry’s finest fowl.Grab your Bob Evans dinner, pour the bourbon, and get ready for the jive, the gobble, and the glory.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:39.054)

Yeah, those aren't pillows, Chad. It's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Doge's Dead Cheeseman.

Chad Sowash (00:47.951)

This is Chad sales pending, so watch.

Joel Cheesman (00:51.878)

episode of HR's most dangerous podcast Jive Turkeys with all the fixins baby let's do this

Chad Sowash (00:58.785)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:06.26)

yeah, Chad, you've waited all year. You waited all year for the gobble baby all year for the gobble. So Thanksgiving week. It's officially the, the, it's the holiday season, which means you and I try to do as little work as possible. which leads us to, our jive Turkey episode. What, what do you have friends and family? Again, we have other people do the work for us. We ask some of our friends of the podcast to give us their.

Chad Sowash (01:06.403)

It's back. It's back. It's back. Jesus. shit.

Chad Sowash (01:20.795)

you

Chad Sowash (01:25.371)

Friends and family episode. Let's just call it the friends and family.

Ha

Joel Cheesman (01:33.954)

their favorite jive turkeys in the industry of the year. But Thanksgiving, Chad, what, you've got a lot going on. You got a lot going on. What do you want to be thankful for? Share with the, with the fans, anything?

Chad Sowash (01:45.101)

Yeah, no, thankful for all of the time that, you know, me and the family had to live in this beautiful, big ass, beautiful house. And it's for sale. And it was been on the market less than two weeks. Got a sale pending. Moving fast, moving fast, moving fast. Moving fast, yep.

Joel Cheesman (02:03.422)

Awesome. Awesome. Congrats. That was fast. Columbus, Indiana is a hot market everybody Columbus, Indiana. is this one of these like pending upon and checking out the house? Fanta financing? Like what are the hurdles that are in the way?

Chad Sowash (02:12.558)

yeah.

Chad Sowash (02:22.113)

Yeah, I don't think this will have many hurdles other than time because we've got to make sure that we've got all the logistics taken care of so that we can get everybody safely over to Portugal, including the two dogs. So it's more logistics focused than anything else. So next thing we could be over there before the end of the year or just in early 2026.

Joel Cheesman (02:45.048)

Yeah. Thanksgiving, guess empty house, going to what? Boston market chicken. Do they still have Boston market chicken? Okay.

Chad Sowash (02:51.515)

Close. Very close. Very close. We're both Ohio boys. So Julie is spending Thanksgiving in San Diego with Tristan. I came back to spend it with Emma, our middle kid. And yeah, I ordered the Bob Evans Thanksgiving. That's yeah, Bob Evans. Big Ohio. Big Ohio company. That's right. That's right. you don't know Bob Evans.

Joel Cheesman (02:58.318)

I know.

Joel Cheesman (03:03.927)

Joel Cheesman (03:12.654)

OHHHH

Joel Cheesman (03:21.454)

I love the restaurant made Thanksgiving dinner. Love it. Love it. We did it. Christine, a couple of years ago went to New York for the Macy's day parade. And I think I just got barbecue. It was great. Like, it was awesome. Love it. I love my wife's food, but you know, there's nothing wrong with switching up and getting something different. Yeah. we,

Chad Sowash (03:24.795)

Mmm.

Chad Sowash (03:31.962)

yeah.

Chad Sowash (03:42.757)

So what about you guys?

Joel Cheesman (03:47.074)

We're blessed with a divorced family. So we are going to do like a double Thursday. we don't have the big kids. so we're doing my 86 year old dad and my hundred year old dog, and then Jeremy and us, and it'll be kind of a little bit, unconventional, maybe a steak or, you know, something off the, off the, the menu. then Friday we're celebrating with everybody.

So that'll be the more Turkey dressing, mashed potatoes, all that good stuff. And then Friday also we do, we do our Christmas tree cutting. So we reserve a spot, we go cut a tree down. So we'll have a new Christmas tree. We'll have Thanksgiving dinner. It'll be lovely. It'll be lovely. It'll be lovely. All the traditions, all the cheap, all the American traditions are great. Speaking of, speaking of non-American, my, my European slash

Chad Sowash (04:14.852)

Okay.

Chad Sowash (04:18.683)

Yeah, traditional.

Chad Sowash (04:31.363)

all the traditions, all the Cheeseman traditions.

Ha ha ha!

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (04:43.33)

World football stock went up this weekend, took the kids to Cincinnati for an MLS playoff game featuring the goat, the MJ of the sport, Lionel Messi, who just spanked Cincinnati 4-0. was during the regular season, if you watch him, he kind of phones it in, he kind of bounces around, has a few sparks of genius.

Chad Sowash (04:46.094)

how so?

Chad Sowash (04:51.323)

yeah.

Chad Sowash (04:55.739)

Mmm.

Chad Sowash (05:05.093)

very sad.

Chad Sowash (05:11.355)

Yeah, saves it saves it further. Yeah postseason.

Joel Cheesman (05:13.74)

Yeah, the playoffs, he ain't fucking around. it was a damn. Okay. But, it was cool. was singing flags, smoke and all that stuff. It was as close to European as I guess Ohio can get, but we had a, we had a good time.

Chad Sowash (05:19.547)

Ha

Chad Sowash (05:32.091)

That's awesome. mean, it's interesting because you see guys like Messi come to the US and literally he's a man playing with boys. I mean, you look at that and then you go see Ronaldo playing in the Saudi league. It's the same fucking thing. It's it's amazing watching these guys get to where they're at now. I think they're both around 40 if they're not 40 yet. Getting to where they're at and literally just having fun and making a shit ton of money. Good for them.

Joel Cheesman (05:53.624)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (06:01.218)

Totally. I, yeah. Good. Good on them. Good on them. and good on Google. I know it's not our regular show, but man, Google is cooking and I, I don't know if they had a Netscape moment this, this week, but on a few, Mark Banyoff, CEO of Salesforce tech basically texts or tweeted out said, I've used open AI since it came to being and I'm out because the new Gemini is that good.

Chad Sowash (06:09.563)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (06:16.635)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (06:29.962)

I think you pay for it. So maybe you have some insight on how good it is, but, you know, for those that remember Netscape, Netscape was the shit. when it came out, it was like, wow, this browser is great. You can search and it was awesome. And then, and then Explorer said, hold my beer. we're going to make it part of every Microsoft computer. The difference is Explorer was never better than Netscape. It just happened to be, you know, part of the, part of the, ecosystem.

Chad Sowash (06:39.695)

Yes. Yep.

Chad Sowash (06:56.773)

package.

Joel Cheesman (06:57.92)

It sounds like Gemini is better than OpenAI.

Chad Sowash (07:02.011)

Well, and it's the same scenario. mean, it's the exact same scenario. Look at OpenAI. OpenAI is not connected to any real ecosystem like a Microsoft or Gemini or Google or Amazon or what have you, right? So Gemini, and we talked about this, you can infuse that into your browser. You can infuse it to your, you know, droid operating system, all the stuff. I mean, they have...

Joel Cheesman (07:13.006)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (07:30.519)

the vehicles through sheer behavior of how we've already used our mobile phones, how we've already used browsers, we've used everything. All they do is now sync all of that AI into our everyday lives automatically, which is exactly the exact fucking thing I've been talking about for recruiters. The operating systems that they use, whether they're applicant tracking systems or what have you, all you have to do is start baking that stuff in. And the next thing you know, I don't have to

Joel Cheesman (07:36.77)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (07:57.656)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (08:00.257)

Schedule interviews anymore. wait, I don't have to even do pre-screens anymore I don't have to do a lot of this shit because guess what AI is doing it in the background Google Gemini those guys are showing it showing you how this is a masterclass and how to actually infuse AI into your stack

Joel Cheesman (08:09.336)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (08:17.826)

Yeah, it's a, it's pretty awesome. And we were at, last week we were in Dallas for the, the RL 100 and Johnny Campbell presented all the conferences, showed off, Atlas, which is open AI's browser. And you can't help, but just imagine that Google's going to have the same sort of agentic technology. And by the way, they have Google for jobs.

Chad Sowash (08:38.362)

easily.

Joel Cheesman (08:40.686)

So it's not real hard to think about an easy agent to say like, Hey, do want us to search Google for jobs on a regular basis and then apply to positions that you're interested in? Like that's not a real, a real stretch of the imagination. So, 20, 20, 20, 20, is going to be pretty interesting for our friends at Google. And, the AI story, continues.

Chad Sowash (08:49.142)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (09:03.611)

The competitive landscape is what I love. The thing is that we're dumping so much money into a bunch of these brands that are going to be losers. That's going to be the interesting thing to watch. Which company or companies take billions of dollars and take a fucking nosedive? That's going to be the interesting thing to watch.

Joel Cheesman (09:23.874)

Yep. Yep. And speaking of winners and losers, Chad.

Chad Sowash (09:27.963)

There we go. shit.

Joel Cheesman (09:33.551)

We'll get to free shit after the other football. was just too good of a segue for me not to take advantage of it. All right, gang. is a week 12 is in the books. I think of fantasy football sponsored by our friends at factory fix, clear winners and losers up to this point in fantasy. but here's your leaderboard heading into a new week. got Courtney Nappo and Mackenzie Maitland. They just go back and forth with that top spot. I'm, I'm holding onto that number three.

Chad Sowash (09:37.103)

Good call. Good call.

Chad Sowash (09:56.869)

feeling it.

Joel Cheesman (10:01.326)

kicked your ass this week, which felt pretty good. David, David, David Stiefel last year's winner is in the four spot. Steven McGrath slips out slips out of the playoff spot. Yeah. I know he's, he's not real. He's not real happy about that at all. then we got Jada Weiler, William Carrington, you're in the eighth spot followed by Megan Radigan, Jason Putnam, ginger Dodds, and take a wild guess at who's last Chad. That's right.

Chad Sowash (10:04.219)

God damn it.

Chad Sowash (10:12.037)

What? What?

Chad Sowash (10:17.933)

Chad Sowash (10:30.187)

the big O, the big O. I want to show my O face. O, O, O.

Joel Cheesman (10:32.044)

Jeremy Roberts, he's the big bagel. Bagel Boy is 0 and 12 going into a new week.

Joel Cheesman (10:47.718)

and that is, is a factory fixes fantasy football sponsored by our friends at factory fix. Let's get to free shit. Shall we Chad? Because Steven's losing on the grid iron. Maybe he's, he's making up for it with, with free stuff.

Chad Sowash (10:47.8)

You

Chad Sowash (10:51.386)

Yes!

Chad Sowash (10:55.611)

Beautiful. That's right.

Chad Sowash (11:04.826)

He might, he might.

Chad Sowash (11:18.416)

Yes.

Chad Sowash (11:46.698)

no.

Chad Sowash (12:17.883)

And such the perfectionist that Stephen messaged me and he's like, hey, I was trying to speak very slowly because my Scottish accent, a lot of Americans can't understand what I'm saying and they need to understand where to go get free stuff. So he came back with the same version, but he actually sped it up a little bit to make it a little tighter because it seemed like it was going way too long. So again, the perfectionist being that Stephen McGrath.

Joel Cheesman (12:21.304)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (12:46.35)

Sure, sure.

Chad Sowash (12:51.991)

Alright.

Joel Cheesman (12:52.302)

By the way, can we start a GoFundMe to get him over here for the World Cup in 26? Can we do chicken cock sponsor or something? I don't know.

Chad Sowash (12:57.083)

Ha

Chad Sowash (13:00.673)

Oooooh! Turkeys!

Joel Cheesman (13:05.974)

All right, Chad, just like any good concert has a warm up band. I'm going to warm us up here with with Jive turkeys. Call this my honorable mention, if you will. Zip Recruiters podcast. I don't know if you've heard about this, Chad. It's called it's creatively called Talent All Stars. Anyway, they launched this thing in August of twenty twenty four over a year ago, year and a half, roughly.

Chad Sowash (13:11.041)

excellent. Sure.

Chad Sowash (13:24.987)

doing it again.

Chad Sowash (13:31.899)

Okay, yep, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:35.257)

They have a whopping 10 reviews on Spotify. 10 reviews on Spotify and 20 reviews on Apple to this point, Chad. Chad, I don't know if you know this, they're a public company with almost 1500 employees. They have 106,000 followers on LinkedIn. 30 reviews on the two most popular podcast platforms in the world.

Chad Sowash (13:54.287)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (14:05.324)

Meanwhile, Chad, year to date, their stock is down 35%. If this isn't a jive turkey, I don't know what is. My first and Arnaud Bormentian Turkey of the Year goes to Zip Recruiter's podcast, Talent All-Stars. Boo!

Chad Sowash (14:26.435)

I mean, if you want to look at how to do anything half-assed, let's take a look at ZipRecruiter. Fill this, I mean, they've pretty much fallen apart since IPO. So yes, ZipRecruiter is literally the epitome of half-assetness.

Joel Cheesman (14:43.436)

I should have looked up the stock price since they launched this shitty podcast. By the way, if you're on this podcast and they have some good people like head of TA, good like you're talking into the abyss. If you have been a guest on zipper critters podcast, you need to call Chad and cheese. So when you spend time talking into a mic, people are actually listening to it. So give us a call. If you've been on zipper critters, shitty podcast, gobble gobble motherfuckers.

Chad Sowash (14:46.395)

Ha!

Chad Sowash (14:59.439)

No!

Chad Sowash (15:05.667)

It's worth it. It's worth it. Yes.

Chad Sowash (15:10.811)

beautiful, beautiful.

Joel Cheesman (15:14.572)

All right. Time for a friend of Chad and cheese. We call them the Fockers, if you will friend of Chad and cheese. Let's hear from JT on her Jive turkey of 2025.

Chad Sowash (15:26.191)

There we go.

Joel Cheesman (15:34.094)

It's like Johnny's mugshot.

Joel Cheesman (16:17.135)

Ugh.

Chad Sowash (16:18.011)

Ooh.

Joel Cheesman (16:20.558)

JT's coming in hot, coming in hot.

Chad Sowash (16:22.395)

That's why we love Lil JT, because she does come in hot. So I I agree the Society of Human Resource Management should be the North Star for HR professionals, but it's not. Why? mean, leadership or lack of maybe, and in my honest opinion, never look for Sherm's president, Johnny C. Taylor, to set a standard for anything other than looking polished. He's got some beautiful suits. And then sounding like an elite

Joel Cheesman (16:34.678)

It used to be.

Joel Cheesman (16:48.759)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (16:50.731)

ivory tower asshole every time he opens up his fucking mouth. I'm just surprised that Marilyn Monroe impersonator wasn't a fucking stripper.

Joel Cheesman (17:01.368)

That would have been good. That would have been good. Look, I'm glad I don't have to look at these commercials anymore. Remember the Johnny Taylor commercials that were on all the fucking time? Which were like, I don't know who they were pandering to. More like just, was an ego play for Johnny, if anything else. He was the star of all these things. I'm just glad I don't have to look at those fucking commercials anymore. But speaking of commercials, Chad, we're rolling along. We got commercials on the show, but we have real advertisers.

Chad Sowash (17:03.193)

I'm surprised.

Yes. Yes.

Chad Sowash (17:14.031)

So self-important. Yes.

Chad Sowash (17:26.073)

Yes. Let's do it.

Joel Cheesman (17:30.38)

real sponsors, real pertinent products for our listeners. Guys, listen to the ads, otherwise there's no show. And if you haven't given us a follow on your favorite social media platform or podcasting platform of choice, what the hell, dude? What the hell? Let's go.

Chad Sowash (17:43.835)

Do it. Do it.

Joel Cheesman (17:54.991)

All right, Chad, we're rolling straight from JT to Mo. I don't know if the audience can handle it. I don't know if the audience, we got two from Mo. One kind of leads into the other. It's not real. Let's get some Mo on this docket here.

Chad Sowash (18:00.045)

I don't know.

Chad Sowash (18:04.667)

Give me some mo.

Chad Sowash (19:27.387)

This is very dystopian, right? But it's true. And we have people like Tim Gerner. Remember that CEO founder who said the quiet part out loud? Remember that guy? Go ahead and play it, Joel. case the kids forget.

Joel Cheesman (19:42.786)

Yeah, that was a CEO's behaving badly moment. Let's go down memory lane for that one.

Chad Sowash (20:26.111)

You combine what that piece of shit said in that video with the AI aspect Moe just talked about. So it's not just a vehicle to perform layoffs through the guise of AI. It's a way to beat down the peasants and get them to bend to your will. So it is dystopian, yes, but unfortunately, this is what we're seeing happening and we're seeing CEOs and founders saying they want to do this shit out loud.

Joel Cheesman (20:30.766)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (20:55.468)

Yeah. the, AI phenomenon, the AI trend has given a lot of smoke and cloud cover, to CEOs to lay people off. Maybe they over hired during the, the pandemic juice, their stock price. life is good for CEOs. Life is good for CEOs. Let's see if it turns around in 2026, but next up on the jive turkey commentary is someone close to your heart.

Miss Julie, the job board Dr. Sowash.

Chad Sowash (22:21.339)

You can see Tristan was Tristan was recorded.

Joel Cheesman (22:23.694)

I was gonna say was Tristan the videographer on that one? Is there some posh posh posh bar? nice. LA. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (22:29.359)

but

In LA, yes, in LA. Yeah, I mean, she's not wrong. I corporate welfare at its worst. That's what Ronstadt showed us. Hundreds of employees all throughout Europe who worked for Monster suddenly were left without a job, without severance benefits. because Ronstadt was clever with the financial engineering, i.e. paying their executives millions of dollars and artificially bleeding the company dry through Apollo's P.E. Playbook.

Joel Cheesman (22:53.454)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (23:00.411)

They combine efforts with Apollo and Apollo helped them bleed it fucking dry. The only thing I can say is if you're a global player, go to a Deco, Manpower, Hayes, Robert Half, Kelly, Allegious. There are plenty of other options out there, but don't choose a company that's a people company that treats their people like utter shit. That's not who you want to do business with. yeah, just don't pick this turkey.

Joel Cheesman (23:31.599)

You know, Chad, I'm wearing my, uh, my boom band, uh, swag today. Um, and if you haven't been keeping up with, uh, Jeff Taylor's many interviews, he's also putting on monster reunion, uh, events around the country. And it's, it's just sad to see historically such a employee focused organization. know a lot of career builder folks, a lot of monster folks, like they still love the brand. They'll still show up to some reunion party.

Chad Sowash (23:39.631)

Ha ha ha!

Chad Sowash (23:44.559)

Yes. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (23:59.848)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (24:00.951)

And then to just totally shit on them like Ron start did, is just, it's just bad, bad etiquette, bad etiquette all around. Good, good commentary from, from Julie, which leads us to you, I guess with your Turkey.

Chad Sowash (24:17.167)

Yeah, so I want to go after Julie because she actually wrote up an amazing article about Indeed Connect last week on the job board doctor. And it was so damn good that I used it as a guide for her remarks today. So I told her, I'm like, hey, I'm stealing your shit. So big thanks to her for doing this and distilling it down so idiots like us can actually understand it. So no surprise, my...

Turkey of the week or my Turkey of the year goes to Indeed Connect. Indeed Connect is a new product that's launching in January that companies can use if they use the Indeed apply integration. And here are the three sales points that they're trying to use to push people into it. Number one, point number one, AI innovation. So you'll get basic candidate summaries, which literally standard fare for just about every fucking thing that you use out there today.

So it's nothing really special. Or you can purchase advanced screening or you can purchase advanced sourcing. So back to a little history lesson. You don't charge for basic bitch upgrades. Monster did this with Sixth Sense Semantic Search and that product died because it should have been a platform advancement, not a wallet opening event. Right? So again, a basic bitch move by indeed.

Joel Cheesman (25:21.102)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (25:35.202)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (25:38.747)

Point number two, marketplace. So your brand, your logo can actually show up in the search results. Like it's 19 fucking 99 for God's sakes, which is something that we did at online career center. And I think a monster board and Kerr mosaic and all these old, old, old job boards did back in the day. And you didn't have to pay for it. But they're doing this because they want your data again for another basic bitch.

Joel Cheesman (25:45.911)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (25:54.936)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (26:08.045)

upgrade. Indeed will also disable competitor ads on your page. So let me go ahead and set this up for you kids. If a job seeker was researching your company on Indeed and they've got your little company page that's there, they will put your competitors jobs on your company page. Unless, unless you pay to knock them off, right? It feels like a protection racket to some extent.

Joel Cheesman (26:09.026)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (26:37.947)

Then there's ongoing matching using your disposition data. So Let me get this straight. This is fucking kills me We're in an environment where the large language models are literally commoditized and data is the gold and Indeed wants your data. They want your gold for free Plus if you want indeed advanced sourcing and screening and all that other fun stuff

Joel Cheesman (26:45.197)

Uh-huh.

Chad Sowash (27:03.589)

You're have to pay for it, not just with your data, just so you have access, but also more money from a budget standpoint. And then last but not least there, you get preferential terms, which means I guess that you feel special by receiving discounts on products you should not be paying for in the first place. In short, Indeed Connect is just a slick way to coerce employers, staff and companies in recruitment marketing agencies into handing over hiring data, the actual gold.

Joel Cheesman (27:22.254)

You

Joel Cheesman (27:32.811)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (27:32.965)

for free while charging you more for quote unquote better matching advanced screening in discounts on the most basic bitch features imaginable. We've heard this song and dance before. Indeed will always give you the best, but indeed's own numbers admit that 97 to 98 % of applicants coming from indeed aren't qualified. Say it again.

97 to 98 % of applicants coming from Indeed aren't qualified. The Indeed model is broken and their way to fix it is not improving the product. It's not fixing the funnel. No, it's pressuring you to cough up your data and your cash for the privilege of it. I don't fucking get it. Anyway, that's my turkey, my long rant.

Joel Cheesman (28:23.586)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (28:30.977)

Indeed, Connect is a turkey.

Joel Cheesman (28:35.736)

Chad, we have some secret hidden footage from the last board meeting where Deco spoke to the team. You ready for this?

Joel Cheesman (28:49.582)

Let's take a quick break.

Joel Cheesman (28:54.574)

All right, guys, it's the Jive Turkey episode. If you're just joining us, I sounded like a radio guy just then. Let's go, let's go right, we're back for a live turkey. Okay, let's go to keeping it hot gang. We're gonna go to Alen from Smart Recruiters. Let's go.

Chad Sowash (29:00.601)

I hope that is... Yeah, I'm turkey.

Yeah

Chad Sowash (29:09.979)

Who?

Chad Sowash (30:36.949)

Ooh, that was hot.

Joel Cheesman (30:38.399)

New muscles, Chad, I'm still trying to build my old muscles. Like what's this new muscle shit? man, I am in trouble, dude.

Chad Sowash (30:41.284)

Hahaha

Chad Sowash (30:45.499)

She totally hits it though. mean, we hear old rich guys all the time like Scott Galloway who we listen to and we like, but they talk about how AI isn't going to take your job, but someone using AI is going to take your job, which is totally bullshit. Yes, someone who knows how to use AI will definitely have advantages, but those individuals are training their replacements. So for example, and we've seen this, we thought prompt engineers.

Joel Cheesman (30:48.622)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (31:15.033)

would be a job about a year ago, right? What happened? The AI watched and learned from millions of people prompting and now the AI prompts better than humans do. So we taught the AI how to prompt better. We trained our replacements. The same shit's going to happen. Where did the new jobs come from? Do we do more and do better with the staff that we actually have? Remember guys, we sent millions of candidates

Joel Cheesman (31:26.744)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (31:44.909)

into the black hole every year. If we have the same workload with better tech, just imagine those people not going into the black hole, but you still have a fucking job. But to think that it's not going to take jobs like we've seen with interview schedulers, it's going to, it already has.

Joel Cheesman (32:11.368)

I didn't think I would do this, but I'm going to give you a little history lesson on the Jive Turkey episode. when I worked for a job board that will be left unnamed, we made a pivot from sort of standard job postings to a more sort of tech suite of products, call it SEO, mobile, social stuff. And the salespeople who

Chad Sowash (32:14.701)

here we go. Here we go.

Joel Cheesman (32:38.744)

did job postings really well, which is a pretty simple sell, right? Like you're already doing it, just do it over here. To try to transfer those salespeople to then start talking about search marketing or mobile like development and like it just very few of the salespeople made the trans the transmission, the transgression, transmission, transition. Thank you. It's this, it's this, it's this Turkey. This Turkey on my head is sucking the,

Chad Sowash (33:00.667)

transition. Hey, it was your transgression.

Joel Cheesman (33:08.632)

blood out of my head. the transition, I don't know, call it one in four could make it effectively. We had to get all new salespeople that sort of had the competency to sell this new product. To me, that's kind of what we're seeing, but the recruiters that can transition into new jobs, new titles, new competencies, they're going to be fine. The ones that can't, they're going to go do something else. There will still be recruiting jobs.

They just won't be the kind of recruiting jobs that you think of when you think of them today.

Chad Sowash (33:41.243)

Yeah, it's gonna look different. It's gonna look different. Doesn't mean that we're not gonna have recruiting. It's just gonna look a hell of a lot different.

Joel Cheesman (33:46.892)

And speaking of looking different, she's looking great. She's looking great. Let's go to Michelle at Vetti.

Chad Sowash (33:49.605)

Yeah? Huh? yeah.

Chad Sowash (35:06.935)

instincts. I love that. She said one word in there that is the most powerful, it's trust. Demand gen marketing in our space specifically pisses me off because for the most part, vendors in our space aren't selling transactional products and services. Seriously, we're not selling Tommy John underwear or blue apron milk kits, right? You're selling products that cost thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, and that's not demand gen.

You don't land big deals with coupon codes. You land big deals with consistent marketing and being top of mind when it's time for an RFP. You build it through trust.

Joel Cheesman (35:50.415)

You know, Chad, uh, uh, ran Fishkin, uh, our new marketing, uh, best BFF. and if you haven't listened to that interview, please go back to the archives and check that out. Um, he has a new post out, uh, today on a spark Toro, his, uh, his startup. he talks about how traditionally marketing is thought of as a funnel, right? You throw them in, you move them down, you know, eventually get to a point where there's interest and decision and action, et cetera, like pretty, pretty, pretty standard stuff.

Chad Sowash (35:53.722)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (35:58.959)

Great interview.

Chad Sowash (36:09.849)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (36:18.558)

He says today it's more like a pinball machine. There are multiple points, touch points with a brand, different platforms, and eventually you get them down to the center. So marketing is, it's just interesting how all of that is changing so much. And I think Michelle kind of frames that in a cool way and also leads into what Rand's doing over there in marketing land. But yeah, great stuff as always.

Chad Sowash (36:22.011)

What?

Chad Sowash (36:27.419)

Yeah

Joel Cheesman (36:46.318)

from Michelle. wonder if she's cooking this week. I wonder if she's cooking some good stuff this week. I'll be right over Michelle.

Chad Sowash (36:50.235)

bet she is. I bet she is.

You

Joel Cheesman (36:58.08)

All right, Chad, let's go into my turkey of the year. Closing out after my intro. That's right. Chad, can I interest you in, I don't know, honey pots, moles, crypto payments, and Rico claims as a jive turkey? Can I interest you in that? Yeah. Like if you're a regular listener, you know I'm talking about the ongoing bitch slap fest between deal and rippling. Let me set the table.

Chad Sowash (37:01.071)

Here we go. Best for last. Best for last.

Chad Sowash (37:11.86)

Ooh, that sounds amazing.

Joel Cheesman (37:25.23)

before I get to my Jive Turkey award winner. So before 2025 deal was apparently a rippling customer that got divorced thanks to being too much like each other and being coming, becoming too competitive. So fast forward to 2025, January of this year, a deal gets sued for alleged payments to Russian entities, dodging us sanctions. That's fun. Apparently this was all linked to a Ponzi scheme.

A deal said it was quote, rippling aligned because the plaintiff's lawyer was a rippling investor. Yeah, you can't make this shit up. Hollywood should be calling soon in March. Rippling Sue's deal for orchestrating espionage by enlisting a spy. Seriously, in Rippling's Dublin, Ireland office claims include Rico violations, trade secret theft and unfair competition.

Chad Sowash (38:12.175)

Yes.

I

Joel Cheesman (38:20.834)

The spy allegedly searched the keyword deal 23 times a day in Slack. Way to cover your tracks, genius. He stole sales pipeline data on 728 prospects and customer switchers. How'd this James Bond wannabe get caught? Well, Chad, after some suspicious behavior, Rippling created a fake Slack channel.

which the spy searched hours after deal execs got warned of said channel as the wall started closing in. He did what any any good spy would do. He ran to the bathroom to cover to cover his tracks. Didn't really work out so well, so so who is this brainiac spy expert? His name is Keith O'Brien of Dublin, Ireland. They may have. They may have disavowed him at this point, but as far as I know, he's still a Dublin resident.

Chad Sowash (39:09.659)

You

Joel Cheesman (39:14.318)

And he's my jive turkey for 2025. But he's not only a winner because of his Tom Cruise mission impossible like cat like quickness. It's even more for the amount of money he took in exchange for destroying his personal life and his and his I don't know his his brand if he had one most people like you and me might ask for six figures and a Swiss bank account, maybe a duffel bag full of gold bars, Chad, but no.

Chad Sowash (39:44.603)

Crew Grant.

Joel Cheesman (39:44.812)

Mr. O'Brien, allegedly profited a huge sum totaling $6,000.

$6,000 roughly 5,000 euros if my math is right on that for playing for playing a really dumb game of spy versus by when caught in questioned surprisingly he sang like a bird Chad he sang like a bird no more good fellas you know keep your mouth shut and you know keep you know don't tell him anything so fast forward to today chat fast forward to today how is how is mr. O'Brien doing well he dodged a bullet yes by flipping sides early

Chad Sowash (39:56.827)

my god.

So stupid.

Chad Sowash (40:05.947)

Woof.

Chad Sowash (40:17.531)

for 6,000 euros.

Joel Cheesman (40:26.388)

singing like a canary and providing smoking gun evidence, including WhatsApp logs and payment records. O'Brien avoided jail time, his charges and financial ruin emerging as Rippling's protected insider. That's right. He's Rippling's protected inside. By the way, he alleged that deal was following him around the streets of Dublin and, called the cops on that as well. He's apparently, that's, that's, that's here and over there, but his career in HR tech.

Is now proper fucked as they would say in Britain or Ireland. However,

Chad Sowash (40:58.939)

His, well he's on the finance side, right?

Joel Cheesman (41:04.718)

I don't know.

Chad Sowash (41:05.928)

Think he was I think is on the finance side, which is one of the reasons why I had all the access to this so I mean He's in the finance. He's on the financial side of any any industry. He's fucked period

Joel Cheesman (41:18.53)

Yeah, yeah, he's proper fucked. I'm sure the dramas left him with lasting paranoia and an Irish whiskey habit to dull the pain. Meanwhile, Chad, the main US case against deal rolls on with O'Brien's testimony central to the case. My jive turkey for 2025 goes to Keith O'Brien. Slainte Keith, you're my winner. You're my winner.

Chad Sowash (41:21.147)

Woof.

Chad Sowash (41:24.837)

Woof.

Chad Sowash (41:44.037)

What? Wasn't sure if it would be Keith or would be Bozo.

Joel Cheesman (41:49.536)

we, we still have naughty and nice coming in December chat. Don't worry. I am, I am locked and loaded. I am locked and loaded for, December, just like I am locked and loaded as always for a dad joke.

Chad Sowash (41:52.563)

good call. There you go.

You

Joel Cheesman (42:09.826)

And we're going with Thanksgiving theme Chad. Why did the cranberries turn red? Why did the cranberries turn red?

Chad Sowash (42:18.906)

I don't know.

Joel Cheesman (42:19.98)

They saw the turkey dressing.

Chad Sowash (42:23.301)

Good one. Yes. Damn it. Damn it.

Joel Cheesman (42:26.318)

Should have gotten that one, yeah. Should have gotten that one. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Happy Thanksgiving, Chad. Go Bucks. We out.

Chad Sowash (42:29.42)

Ha

Chad Sowash (42:36.975)

We out.