Come all ye' faithful if you seek all the latest news and commentary from the world of recruitment. This week the boys take on Indeed, ZipRecruiter and crappy job descriptions. It's not personal, it's just Chad & Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast.
Yes, Indeed is raising prices ... here's what you need to know.
ZipRecruiter is getting into the private label job board business ... but why?
Stop using these buzzwords in your job postings.
AI, AI and more AI ... the latest investments you need to know.
An introduction to initial coin offerings (ICO) in online recruitment.
The boys would prefer to sip egg nog under the mistletoe, but duty calls.
And as always, get on over to our sponsors and show 'em some love: Sovren, America's Job Exchange, Nexxt and Ratedly.
Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel: All right. Let's call this the Easy Like Sunday Morning edition, boys and girls. Welcome to Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.
Joel: On this week's show we discuss Indeed's price increase, Stella gets her groove back, and zip-a-dee-doo-dah, ZipRecruiter buys JobBoard.io, which means another job boards aren't dead yet segment. Do we know what our listeners want or what?
Chad: No shit.
Joel: Stay tuned. We'll be right back.
Announcer: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our tenth year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women and minorities and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com.
Joel: Money, money, money.
Joel: Everyone needs that at holiday time.
Chad: God damn straight. On diversity hiring, go there now.
Joel: Chad, would be on Santa's naughty or nice list this year?
Chad: Fuck. That's a hard question. I'd say probably naughty being "dangerous explicit rating."
Joel: I think the fact that you dropped an f-bomb in your Santa question, we are naughty to the bone. Yes.
Joel: But let's go to our nice list, which is usually our shout outs.
Joel: I'll do the first one. LinkedIn gets a shout out from me. They listened to us, believe it or not. I'm not saying the entire company, but there are certain folks in leadership and sales folks and partnership people, whether it be on LinkedIn itself or. They don't usually come out on Twitter, 'cause they don't wanna be public about it.
Joel: But it's good to know that LinkedIn's out there listening to us. We love you guys.
Chad: Yeah. And we love anybody coming out, whether they're hitting us on Direct Messenger. You don't have to be public about it. But yeah. Let us know how you feel.
Chad: Now these people were public, because they used the hash chadcheese, the #chadcheese. Kelly Robinson, the founder and CEO of Broadbean now. Broadbean is a career builder property. Kelly, you're British, so snarky is automatic. You don't have to try, buddy. You don't have to try.
Chad: Steve Gilbert, TA leader over at PetSmart.
Joel: The man.
Chad: The man. Thanks for reaching out, man.
Chad: Big shout out to our Philly listeners. Go get them, Ed. Bring them in. We need them.
Joel: Dun-duh-duh-nuh-nuh. Trust the process.
Chad: Kyle Hager, hey. Okay. This guy's like the antithesis of the show, 'cause he is a millennial, and he's a U of M grad, knowing that we're both Ohio State Buckeyes, still gotta love him. He's given us love, and he said he just joined.
Joel: Kyle, get help, dude. Get help. You've got some issues.
Chad: He's getting help. As he continues to listen to Chad and Cheese.
Joel: Actually anyone who publicly acknowledges themselves giving us props, needs probably some professional help.
Chad: Now you're trying to dissuade people? That's not cool.
Chad: And last but not least, the Talent Cast podcast by James Ellis called us goofy, actually this was on his podcast.
Joel: I'm insulted.
Chad: Fuck, man. I don't know.
Joel: I mean, a-holes, dickheads. Something like, idiots.
Joel: But goofy? Come on.
Chad: HR's most dangerous podcast is goofy. Dude.
Joel: We've got to turn up the volume to 11 is some dude's calling us goofy.
Chad: So what about that, you also had a shout out to Leever or Lever?
Joel: The big one. The big shout out to guerrilla marketer Leela Srinivisan.
Chad: Is it Layla?
Joel: Or Layla or Leela. We don't really know. We don't really know how to pronounce her company name, which is Lever or Leever. We're just that stupid, but okay. So,
Leela. I'll go with Leela. Leela put on a video on LinkedIn.
Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joel: A lot of people probably saw it. It was her singing a rendition of Silent Night I think. But she put in ATS lyrics.
Joel: And it was totally goofy, I'll call that goofy.
Chad: Yeah it was goofy.
Joel: And according to her, she wrote the lyrics on her way to work and recorded them on her iPhone or iPad and put it out there for the world. This thing, as of I think Friday when she told me had 63,000 views, 700 likes and like 150 comments.
Chad: So the view thing, I mean the view thing for me never really means much. But the likes and the comments, 700 likes and 173 comments. Do we have a big applause that we can give her for goodness sakes?
Joel: Oh I think we might have. No, we don't. How about a cry baby? I don't know. It's all we got, man. We'll have to implement sound effects from Firing Squad, which everyone should listen to, into our normal weekly show. But Leela, applause from us. Golf clap, here we go. All right. Yeah. That is some kick ass marketing. And listen, to everyone else, I'm expecting the ATS slew of guerrilla marketing. Susan Vitale, I want to see your video.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: I want to see you break out in song to compete with your ATS brethren out there.
Chad: The gauntlet has been thrown down, Susan Vitale. Not to mention Leela has an amazing, amazing singing voice. This lady has chops. So yeah. They set the bar pretty high for iCIMS. And I expect a choir to come out and do something for iCIMS.
Joel: Yeah. But in all seriousness, that's amazing. And anyone out there with a marketing department with a pulse should be thinking of something clever to do and leverage LinkedIn and get some views and some exposure and engagement. Because what Lever did was pretty awesome, and it should be followed better.
Chad: And we talk about this all the time. Now real quick. We talk about this all the time. There's so much content that's put out there that doesn't get marketed well at all, because in some cases the content is shit. But this is smart, and it's fun, and obviously people like it. So there you go guys. Look at it. Learn from it. Do some shit that works.
Joel: Yes. And think about what it would actually cost to do something that gets that kind of engagement, and it's probably, well for her it's nothing. But if you were to pay for this kind of exposure, it might be expensive. So do it for free.
Joel: All right. Are we done with shout outs?
Chad: One more. Thanks again for Disability Solutions for the transcriptions people.
Chad: Transcriptions. For all of those who are hearing impaired, who need some Chad and Cheese podcast love, now they have it. All they have to do is go to the website, click on this week's episode, last week's episode, doesn't matter. There is a transcription there ready and available. So thanks so much for Disability Solutions for sponsoring that.
Joel: And again I need the applause sound bite, because that's two applauses we don't have any sound bites. There we go. All right.
Joel: Are we now ready to go into the bulk of the show here? Okay.
Joel: We mentioned at least one or two shows ago that there was some rumblings about an Indeed price increase.
Chad: Yes. Well.
Joel: There was, there has indeed. See what I did there? A price increase, but we have some context around what exactly they're raising prices on.
Chad: So two weeks ago we talked about you and I receiving calls, emails, LinkedIn messages. I mean, it was feverish on my side. And I think you've received some stuff too about Indeed's price, what they were calling gouging at the time, cause they were looking at 25 to 35% tax increase or, tax increase. (Laughs) Oh. Anyway.
Chad: That was Freudian. During those conversations it was abundantly clear that Indeed was raising prices, and they were changing some things about the actual platform itself. But contacts, their actual customers, they were frustrated as hell, because it wasn't clear. They kept hearing different stories from different sales people. They weren't getting the right messaging. And we talked about it on this podcast. There were also other individuals. I think you wrote about it. Other individuals wrote about it. And LinkedIn finally stepped up and said, not LinkedIn. Shit. Indeed finally stepped up and said, you know what? We should probably clear the air here.
Joel: I'll come in and vouch for you that you've been in California for a week. So you're not really in the work mode right now. And you're still not over watching the latest Star Wars movie.
Joel: I talked to the SEP of marketing at Indeed for a story that I did for ERE. So my take on this is that they're sort of going after the LinkedIn InMail revenue strategy.
Joel: They're clearly either seeing it or scared that they're job posting or promotion revenue is going to take a hit, if it's already not already taking a hit from Google for Jobs. So if I'm Indeed, I'm looking at my current assets and saying, "What can I monetize?" Up until now, they have 100 million resumes in their database. And if you're a featured company, which means you spend a certain amount of money, you used to get this database for free.
Joel: You could contact as many people as you want at no charge. Now the staffing companies and the big enterprise level companies certainly had a nice run at contacting whoever the hell they wanted. They're going to start pricing, or charging you for sending out their version of InMails to their resume database.
Joel: I mean, you more or less have had a free ride. They have 100 million resumes. We have had someone actually say that Indeed still has the best resume database out there. So to me, why not charge for it? Especially if you're not seeing growth in your job postings, and you're scared that Google's gonna keep eating your lunch. This is a way that they're going to replace the revenue that they're losing or could be losing.
Chad: Well, you're right. In the end, Indeed is filling the early effects of Google for Jobs. Number one, it's shiny. Number two, it owns their organic traffic now. So all that organic traffic that Indeed used to receive, or at least a portion of it, not all of it, is not there anymore.
Chad: So number one they need to continue growth. What do they have to do? From a revenue standpoint, they have to do something. They can't continue to just do the same thing. And this is a good revenue growth opportunity.
Chad: And number two, they need to start paying for the traffic to offset the Google organic traffic loss. So the organic loss that they're receiving they've got to do something. So they've got to pay somebody to start receiving traffic somewhere, and this is gonna be a part of that. So growth and also trying to make sure they got that organic traffic back is huge.
Chad: Here's the thing though. And I think you might have uncovered this. I believe ZipRecruiter and Nexxt, this is a great opportunity for them to really attack, and also maybe CareerBuilder, to attack, because these price increases will probably allow for an organization to start to shift funds to another organization like a CareerBuilder, a Nexxt or a ZipRecruiter. And from our understanding, from what we've heard and what we've seen, at least from a ZipReceruiter case study, ZipRecruiter really kicked the shit out of Indeed when it came to, what was it? Price per candidate?
Joel: Price per resume I think. Yeah. Every one you just mentioned there are big time in bed with Google.
Joel: In terms of their jobs products. So yes, those sites use leveraging Google are probably going to see a decreased cost per resume.
Joel: Versus what Indeed is, because of just what we've been talking about.
Joel: Someone had shared with me in my report, or in my blog post that Indeed is looking apparently for 40% increase in the States from last year in revenue. So if the jobs aren't growing at a pace that they have been, they really need to look at other avenues for revenue. And looking at their $100 million or 100 million resumes is certainly a way to try to do that.
Chad: They have to do something. Again, two things. They've got to grow, and if they're trying to grow 40%, how do you think they're going to do that? And then number two, they've got to replace traffic. And they've got to pay for that traffic. So how in the hell are they going to do it? I mean, and again, this is I think almost a perfect storm for organizations like Zip and CareerBuilder and Nexxt to be able to really go after that base and start to decay Indeed's base.
Joel: Yup. And we're also hearing stories, I think you have as well, that they're really clamping down on their partnership program and who they allow to put Indeed job postings.
Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joel: Be it API or whatever on their site. And we didn't have that slated for discussion today, but I think it probably segues nicely into our ZipRecruiter story.
Joel: Who is doing the exact opposite. They want to be in more places for their job postings. Indeed's doing some interesting things, some of it confusing, some of it makes sense, and we'll see if it works or not. But that certainly is something to keep an eye on. But Indeed pricing is going up. It's just charging in a different area as opposed to charging for job postings. All this stuff is going to be the same. They'll charge on a market based pricing, how you want to promote it. But you can still post jobs for free on Indeed.
Chad: I really think though, this is a vulnerability, just time frame wise, messaging wise, confusion wise for Indeed. If those other organizations aren't looking to flank Indeed at this point, this is probably the most vulnerable you're gonna see them in a while, because they're gonna strengthen back up.
Joel: Remember was it Mike Tyson who said everyone has a plan until they get punched?
Chad: That's right.
Joel: Indeed got punched. And I think they're trying to figure out what their plan is.
Chad: I think they're getting choked out right now is what's happening.
Joel: You would come up with an MMA analogy.
Joel: All right. Next story. ZipRecruiter, who we talk about a lot on the show, acquired JobBord.io or JobBoard.io. All these names are confusing to us. So JobBoard.io, or JobBoardeo is a white label job board basically. So they power, if you go to TechCrunch, if you go to Politico, they're the ones that are powering these job sites. And ZipRecruiter said, "Hey, we don't know how much they pay them, but they pay them some money," brought JobBoard.io on, and I have a few thoughts on that. I'm sure you do as well. I'm happy to defer to you first if you'd like, cause it is Christmas, and I need the points. I could also opine if you'd like. It's your choice, Chad.
Chad: So first and foremost, congrats to Christian Malpeli, the founder and CEO of JobBoard.io. Nice guy. Dot io, Joel. Nice guy. And to be quite frank, we've seen these types of platforms for years, the Adicios of the world. They've been out there. You have to have these different associations or different organizations like a TechCrunch or a Politico who have individuals who are on their site, and they want more content. And some of that content could be job content. So JobBoard.io I think is bringing more of kind of like a fresh feel to what those platforms look like. And to be quite frank, this is easy from a ZipRecruiter standpoint. This is what we call a job portal strategy. Simply hire tried it with ...
Chad: Jobomatic, and it failed, because Jobomatic was a piece of shit. It looked like a blog platform that you would try to install with. It was really, it was crappy. JobTarget tried, and I think it did successfully, because they sold off their job board stakes two year membership, so I think that went off well for JobTarget, but I think they're going in reverse fashion than ZipRecruiter. And then last but not least, Beyond successfully parlayed their huge job board network into a larger more powerful data business.
Chad: I think you take a look at some very smart organizations pretty much in the landscape, and not just because Nexxt is, they are to be transparent, a sponsor, but they have been incredibly smart in most of the moves they've made over the years. Not all of the moves, but a good amount of the moves, and becoming a data company that focuses on targeting and gathering of data has been amazing.
Chad: So watching some of the transformations happen here is very cool, but what ZipRecruiter's doing now is, it's not something that hasn't happened before over and over and over. This is like probably the fifth generation iteration of this.
Joel: My take on this is it's a distribution challenge. To me, as jobs have been commoditized, I think in many ways candidates are being commoditized.
Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joel: And as Google for Jobs has all the jobs, and you can apply to a myriad of job boards that all have that same job on their site, companies like ZipRecruiter, CareerBuilder, et cetera, are going to need ways to find new candidates, candidates that aren't found by people that go to Google and search marketing jobs in Chicago. These sort of white label job boards enable you to get in front of an audience that are TechCrunch readers or Politico readers, or Association folks, or government sites. And that's a way to get new eyeballs.
Joel: So if companies know, oh geez, if I post a job on CareerBuilder, I post on Monster, I posted on ZipRecruiter, I get the same candidates. So I'm just gonna pick one of these guys. And ZipRecruiter wants to be the one that, hey, I get a lot of the same candidates, but I still get like 5 to 10% totally new candidates that I don't get anywhere else. To me that's why this strategy makes sense. If I were ZipRecruiter I would have a partnership team over at JobBoard.io. Thank you. I said it right. And build as many associations, government entities, schools, blogs, et cetera and really get new and fresh eyeballs on these jobs that are on ZipRecruiter.
Chad: And we talk about vulnerability. I mean, you take a look at the old job board platforms that are out there today. Like year memberships, platform, or DCL or what have you. It's really old tech.
Joel: They're not dead though, Chad.
Chad: They're not dead. They're not dead, that's for sure. But to be able to utilize Zip's power along with this new platform, they've got a great opportunity in the partnership arena to make a shit ton of cash, and do a tone of distribution, and to be more targeted. Remember, Zip is an entirely different animal than any job board really that's out three. They're more targeted in their distribution and the types of individuals that they bring back. This is an entirely different play. It's cool. It's more of an evolved play. And kudos to those guys.
Joel: And by the way, all these blogs, association sites, et cetera, are linking ways to monetize, because if you're looking on the blog side, they're not making bank on banner ads anymore.
Joel: They need new ways to create revenue, and certainly posting jobs is a way to do that. So bloggers and publishers are looking for a solution like Job.io, JobBoard.io. And I think this is probably pretty good timing to introduce that to them as well.
Joel: All right. Let's hear a quick ad, and then we'll talk about, shockingly, AI, which we talk about every week.
Joel: 'Cause there's buckets of money going into the industry. And a couple other items. So stay tuned. We'll be right back.
Announcer: Google, Lever, Entelo, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren technology. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligence software since 1996. And we can help improve your hiring process too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit sovren.com. S-O-V-R-E-N.com for a free demo.
Joel: Sovren powers everything, man, so you've got to get over there and check them out.
Chad: They power the Chad and Cheese Show for the 2018 season.
Joel: They do. Yes. Thank you for bringing that in. Sovren. Again we need the applause. We need to applause. Sovren has committed to sponsor the show through 2018, and we couldn't be happier. They're a great partner, great folks. Go write a check to Sovren. Use their solution. They're awesome. Thank you Sovren for that.
Chad: Rolling right into AI, like you said, Sovren powers the world when it comes to AI. And we're gonna talk about one of your favorite names in the world, Stella.
Chad: And Talenya. One not so favorite, 'cause you don't even know what the hell that is. Talenya. Go ahead, tell us a little about Stella.
Joel: Because Talen-Kenny G was taken. Remember Enya? Is she still around? Anyway, bad 90's music reference. Okay. Yes. Stella.ai, my daughter is named Stella, so it's a special place in my heart.
Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joel: One of my favorite beers as well, but we won't get into that. Raised $10 million to grow their sort of AI solution. Stella is interesting, because they apparently have actual brains building their AI solutions. So they're touting people from NASA, DARPA and Stanford, which everyone pretty much needs now to yeah, basically go through your data base, pick out the right people for the jobs, and we don't need you anymore, recruiters. We'll just use AI to pick out those candidates. So they've just gotten $10 million to grow that? Talenya lost money, but a very similar business model. Also got them.
Chad: So real quick was Stella. Much like we saw with Helena last week. Now I think we're starting to see platforms target the recruiters and say, "We can do it better than them." Where before they weren't. They were tiptoeing around this. That's interesting. I did go to Stella and try to get into the database to see how easy it was. It sucked. I don't give a shit if you're from DARPA or NASA. I mean, first off, just because you're from DARPA, you're a really smart guy, doesn't mean you know a God damn thing about the employment business. Just so you guys know that, okay? I don't give a shit how many freaking acronyms you throw around. I was in the military. Generally they don't mean shit to anybody unless you know the actual industry that you're trying to develop for.
Chad: That being said, yeah. I think it's interesting they have 100 companies, enterprise companies that they pulled in. They probably gave it to them for free to be able to use their brand, which is always smart. But we'll see how that goes.
Chad: Talenya on the other hand, an Entelo wannabe I think, where they're going out and they're looking for and using the "open web" or whatever the hell you wanna call it.
Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chad: To find candidates. And they also, it sounded like that they had recruitments experts or professionals or whatever the hell to help try to make those matches too. So this almost feels like it's an AI / human kind of scenario that's going on with Talenya, which is a bad name.
Joel: Which would you least like to say you were with on a sales call?
Chad: Talenya. You don't know how to spell the God damn thing.
Joel: Talenya. This is Chad with Stella.
Chad: Stella. Yes. Stella. I love. I mean, Stella.ai. Okay that's easy. I'm with Stella.ai. Anybody can spell that. Talenya is a dot com, so I have to give it to them for that, because they didn't try to go with an io or something. But still kind of like PREM from last week? You know? Every sales person is going to have to get on the call, spell it out at least five times, and that's not what you want or what you're looking for.
Joel: Yes. Yes.
Chad: But anyway. They're a wannabe, and they received $3 million dollars was it?
Joel: 3 million, 3 million. Dude, that was a little bit of a rant on Talenya. Like I wasn't expecting that.
Chad: Oh my bad.
Joel: Good for you for getting a little fired up here halfway through the show.
Joel: So the timing seems to be right on this stuff. There were some studies, stories released as well. Out of the UK they found the SMB industry 79% of small businesses says, "they are excited about AI in recruiting." Which makes sense, because small businesses either don't want to pay the exorbitant staffing fees that recruiters charge.
Joel: Or they can't afford to hire anyone on staff to recruit. So yeah. If they can use a machine to do it, I'm sure they would be "exited about it." And the Wall Street Journal last week also reported that work force management software, sales are up 23% in the last two years, which translates into it being an $11.5 billion market currently.
Joel: I know some of you guys don't like us talking about AI every week, but guess what. If the money's flowing and these companies are getting cash, which they will continue to do, we're gonna talk about them.
Joel: So there you go.
Chad: Well this shit's not going away, first off. And we're not gonna stop talking about it, 'cause it's popular, and it's popular. If it's not popular and it's not getting money, right? But it's interesting.
Chad: I think it's slightly, not slightly, very ironic that a European study actually showed that SMB's are really excited about AI, when the European market, probably even the Asian market, is about three to five years behind the US market. And we don't even have our shit together when it comes to AI yet. I mean, we're getting there, and I think we're further ahead than anybody else.
Chad: But I think it's interesting that the market's ready for it, but the technology in some cases is not being well received by actual vendors in those markets. So I'm really excited, put a quick plug in, to be in Dublin in March for TATech Europe, to be able to talk to European vendors about this, because the market wants it. Why the hell aren't they doing this? I almost dropped my third f-bomb this episode.
Joel: That'd be bad. That'd be bad. I mean, we haven't talked about sex robots in a while. I'm sure if you had a survey of who wants sex robots that there would be a high percentage of men in any continent say "Yes", even though none of us have ever seen a sex robot before. And by the way, I would not put myself in that wanting a sex robot category.
Chad: No. I do not agree. I don't think that a bunch of men are looking for sex robots. I mean, I think that's more scary than anything else.
Joel: Dude, I'm gonna go find a report somewhere that shows what percentage of men want, anonymous study that says how many want sex robots. And I bet it's over 50%.
Joel: All right. Till next time.
Joel: You wanted to talk about Facebook and Google's duopoly as part of our little AI segment.
Chad: Yeah. I think it's pretty interesting that recruiting doesn't really get the whole marketing game yet. It's incredibly important that we see recruiting as marketing. Yeah, there are different aspects of it where recruiting is definitely recruiting. But the big front end aspect of this is marketing.
Chad: The reason why I'm prefacing all of this is Google and Facebook together, call this a duopoly, they're accounting for possibly around 63% of the US digital ad revenue this year. And that's growing. Nearly two third of the market, right, is two organizations. And those two organizations, correct me if I'm wrong, are two big organizations that we're talking about getting into recruiting.