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Google Feeds, Dice Bleeds & CareerBuilder Shrinks

Note: In this podcast, Joel misspoke. After looking back at Todd Raphael's reaction, turns out he did not say "fuck." Just wanted to clear that up.

It's been a BUSY... BUSY... BUSY WEEK... and the boys are talkin':

- Rumors Google is adding job searches to an unusual place

Enjoy, and support our awesome sponsors, America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX.


Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel: Yo, yo, yo peeps. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Striking fear in the hearts of shitty vendors since 2017. I'm Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.

Joel: On this week's show, Google is feeding, Dice is losing, and Career Builder is shrinking. Yes, career Builder shrinkage, I said it. Don't go anywhere, we'll be right back after a word from JobAdX.

JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of, or it's the PayPal of, maybe we're the Facebook of," in many, many cases these comparisons fall short to being close to reality, or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Adsense for jobs. That's means we're an efficient, consistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offer recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms, real-time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool.

JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We are not set in regret. For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of pragmatic efficiency and premium page ad position. We also provide publishers and job boards, higher rev share than other partners through our smarter pragmatic platform.

JobAdX: In many cases, 30 to 40% greater and all through our scalable model. To partner with us, you can visit or search or email us at, to get estimates or begin working together.

JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter pragmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK too.

Joel: I got a rant to start off the show if that's all right.

Chad: Oh, no. That's probably the best way to start it.

Joel: It probably is. I'm a little feisty today. So, I've been blogging for a long time. People may know my work, they may not. But I've been doing this for a while, and I've come across some level of respect, I think, with my work. We've been podcasting for over a year, we have a great following. People who matter are sitting down and interviewing with us, right? Like we have CEOs, CMOs, owners, founders, and I think there's an impression or an assumption on the part of vendors that you and I will be at HR Tech this year. For the mere fact that vendors go to shows to show their wears, to talk to customers and prospects, they also go to these shows to talk to the press.

Joel: And for whatever reason, HR Tech in its wisdom deemed you and I unworthy of a press pass. Both in my capacity as a podcaster and my capacity as a writer for ERE, which I would think is a very well respected organization, in terms of content, right?

Chad: Yes.

Joel: My rant is simply that I think HR Tech is really dumb in not letting press people like you and me into a show. And for the vendors that are reaching out to me almost on a daily basis just assuming that I'm gonna be there and saying, "Hey, let's grab a drink at Hr Tech," or, "Hey, we'd love to show you our new stuff, can we set up a time to meet?" Like I tell those people no, I'm not gonna do that because I'm not gonna be there because HR Tech is kind of being a dick about letting press into it's show. So, that's my rant. I apologize to the vendors that would like to talk to me and chat. And anyone else that's been dissed by HR Tech, but that's the reality and that's why we're not there.

Chad: Yeah, so I actually got a text last night and said, "Hey, we'll talk about it an HR Tech." And I was like, "Yeah, well HR Tech said that they're not providing Joel and I media passes." And he responded back with, "What the fuck? Are you fucking kidding me?" That was the response.

Joel: Yeah, I mean my editor at ERE, Todd Raphael, who is very well respected, been doing this for a long time, he assumed that I was going as well. And when I told him no, I got denied a press pass, his response was pretty much the same, "What the fuck? Like I thought you'd be a shoo-in." But that's not the case so fuck it, HR Tech, I don't need your show. Fuck off. I feel so much better.

Joel: Let's go to shout-outs.

Chad: Yeah, shout-outs. I'm gonna start them off with our favorite URL,, AKA, Canvas, love those guys.

Joel: We do love Canvas.

Chad: We've gotta get a new URL, a new brand or something. I love the CANVAs brand but the URL, it's horrible guys. New t-shirts and beer koozies for Chad.

Joel: Yes

Chad: Yes, for Chad. No, after this whole bullshit ZipRecruiter sending you alcohol and I don't get any? No. It's all for me now. I'm playing the Joel Chessman game here.

Joel: Oh, really? I've got some new Beemer-y shwag that maybe you won't be getting the next time.

Chad: Okay, maybe we can do a barter. Yeah, Canvas, we love you man. You meet those guys regularly for like drinks and updates and stuff, and I'm stuck here with a one year old.

Joel: Yeah, and it's beer and it's food and it's Indianapolis, so it's awesome.

Chad: Also, a big shout-out to Hung Lee for obviously putting some love for Chad And Cheese out in the Recruiting Brain Food, if you aren't subscribed to Recruiting Brain Food, I don't know what your fucking problem is. Go out there, check it out. It's good stuff. He purees just a bunch of stuff and feeds it to you, brain food, once a week.

Joel: I think Hung might be a good guest. Hung, if you're listening and you wanna come on and chime in about stuff, let us know. Go to Chad Cheese or hit us up on social media.

Chad: Yup.

Joel: I've never heard him speak or give interviews, so he may be one of these like reclusive guys that never talks, which is fine. But if you'd like to come on, let us know.

Chad: Talroo.

Joel: One of our sponsors. Love those guys. Again, talking about great swag, Talroo. But if you are interested in high frequency hiring, and who isn't these days? We're gonna do a webinar with Chad, NAS and me. And talking about all that good stuff. You can sign up at if you haven't already. Otherwise, you'll probably get an email at some point if you're subscribed to nay degree to our show.

Chad: Yes, and actually just drinking beer out of my Talroo glass that is laser etched with Chad on it. That laser etching on the Talroo logo and Chad, that's good shwag.

Chad: Shout out to Chase Wilson, and this is his tweet, "Listening to Chad and Cheese is always entertaining, but listening to them talk baby bathrobes at half speed, has to be one of the more entertaining podcast moments I've had in a while, #HalfBaked."

Joel: What kind of sicko gets pleasure out of listening to us speak in super slow motion? I'm thinking maybe some meds are in store for this guy.

Chad: Yeah, well, I mean Chase isn't that quick in the first place. So everything that he does is really ... he's gotta take it in slow and I appreciate that. So you listen Chase, you listen any way you like.

Joel: Fair enough, fair enough. If you're headed to TAtech next month and you're a vendor and you'd like to be interviewed by Chad and Cheese, we're doing something with Peter Clayton in video. There's nothing on the site yet, so if you're interested in being interviewed by us on video, really cool thing that we're doing, hit you sup on Or social media and we'll get you guys more details.

Chad: Yeah, I think it's gonna be kind of like a between two ferns kind of thing. Or between the ferns.

Joel: In between two idiots, I think is what we're gonna call it. Between two beers.

Chad: That's a good one.

Joel: Between two kegs. Yeah.

Chad: Yeah, so JobOrDoctor, big shout out because he's always in a tweeting frenzy, so I gotta give him love. Rothberg, even Rothberg had a Shaker call out, this wasn't a shout out, this was a call out. He said, "You're team over at Shaker does great work including job board, you build, manage, you do all this stuff. But during your podcast interview, you said you pretty much gotta stay in your lane, people should be staying in your lane, and being an advertising agency, that's kind of out of your lane, right?" So that was a pretty cool call out by Steven. And him and Joe got on some kind of tweet back and forth online. So good stuff, man.

Chad: #ChadCheese, if you guys aren't, use it. Check it out and get in the conversation.

Joel: So Joe Shaker and Steven Rothberg in the octagon, who you taking?

Chad: That's a hard one. It depends if Joe brings all his kids.

Joel: But if Rothberg brings Faith, his wife, it could be an even fight.

Chad: No, that's not even a question. If you said Faith, right? I don't care who we throw in, she's a fiery redhead, she will kick anybody's ass.

Joel: Fair enough.

Chad: That's all there is to it.

Joel: Fair enough.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Shout out to John Cristoff Shanard, I hope I'm saying that correctly, in Quebec, Canada. John Cristoff let me know that our email's going to a spam filter. I have to say to that, "Welcome to email marketing in 2018." I'm sure a lot of people are getting marketing messages in spam. I don't know what the solution is, maybe we need a text Chad Cheese to a short code and we'll text updates to people, I don't know? But marketing is hard and email marketing is even harder.

Chad: Yeah, yeah. I totally get that. The best thing to do is just subscribe to the podcast so you don't have to actually click on anything, it just automatic. Your notifications, it's all there. That's the best way to do it. But yeah-

Joel: And then they'll get The Shred too.

Chad: And they'll get The Shred, yeah. And everybody loved The Shred.

Chad: That being said, Gordon Burns, the CMO over at Bullhorn was on the latest interview for our Nexxt exclusive. Just dropped earlier this week, Gordon shared some marketing survey knowledge, dropped some knowledge on us. If you haven't checked out that podcast, and you're into marketing, definitely Gordon Burns, CMO over at Bullhorn, he's a good time.

Joel: Gordo.

Chad: Yup.

Joel: Not to be surprised with the Scottish Gordon, right? That's another Gordon.

Chad: Yes, yes. That's Adam Gordon by the way. And last but not least for me, Thelma and Louise Triance, no actually it's just Louise Triance, over at UK Recruiter. She and I will be talking Google for Jobs and talking questions from all of commerce. It'll be on the sight, so if you wanna go to Chad Cheese, register, definitely be a part of that. We'll be talking about Google for Jobs and other Googly stuff, they've got so much shit to talk about right now. It's pretty fun.

Joel: Yup. Oh, and shout outs saying if you haven't voted for us on the TA Tech awards for best podcast, blogging, whatever, do it. Head on over to Chad Cheese, click on the link, give us a vote. We'd much appreciate it.

Chad: Do it.

Joel: And with that, let's get totally he news, shall we?

Chad: Bring it.

Joel: Shrinkage at Career Builder. All right. Crain's Chicago, last week reported that Career Builder is trading and it's plush downtown Chicago digs for something further west of the city. I'm not that attuned to Chicago's geography, but they're basically downsizing their office from roughly 160,000 square feet to about 100,000 square feet. So if you're doing math at home, I'm thinking that's like a 40% decrease, something like that.

Joel: Yeah, a lot of layoffs there, they're pulling back. They had a really nice office there in Chicago, downtown Chicago.

Chad: Oh, God yeah.

Joel: So the dumpster fire for Career Builder continues.

Chad: So in Broadbean style, they're going straight to the ghetto.

Joel: Ghetto time, without the beach.

Chad: Yeah, so for all the listeners who didn't listen a couple episodes ago, you should've, and if you haven't, go back because it was good shit. Broadbean has also moved. So this is kind of the MO of what's happening. It's all about cost-cutting at this point, guys. I mean, they are focusing on cutting the fat wherever there is fat. So if you're at Career Builder right now, you are pretty God damn shaky if you come in the morning looking for your desk and hoping that it's still fucking there.

Joel: Yeah, I heard some of my contacts, I think, mentioned that they're down to one help desk person at the company.

Chad: Oh jeez.

Joel: Which is pretty, yeah, pretty amazing. So this to me, there has always been the question of is this just a chop shop deal, where they're just cutting the pieces and moving on? Or is this a copy and paste kind of thing, or cut and paste, where they're getting rid of the old executives and bring in new ones. I mean, to me, this feels more and more like chop shop territory than it does "We're just replacing the bad apples with fresh fruit."

Chad: Yeah, yeah. How long do you think it's gonna take before they oust Ferguson and their COO becomes CEO? Because I see that move happening, because she's already hardwired into the system, right, the Apollo.

Joel: Maybe by the end of the show, we'll get some feedback. But yeah, I think Ferguson is probably contractually obligated to stick around, but I think once that's over he'll either leave by his own discretion, or he'll be out. But I think he's just a figurehead at this point.

Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they'll do it in a more smooth kind of manner, rather than just kicking him out with a box.

Joel: Smooth, because everything they've done up to this point has been so smooth.

Chad: It's gotta at least be one thing, so anyway, yeah, they're cutting the fat everywhere, guys. So whew, more to be had there!

Joel: Well, going to the next store, Dice, another old timey, crusty, cobwebby job board, we mentioned that they had a new CEO a couple weeks back.

Chad: Art!

Joel: Art Zeile, or Zeile, I don't know how to pronounce it [crosstalk 00:15:36]. He had his first earnings call-

Chad: Ouch.

Joel: This past week.

Chad: Ouch.

Joel: And it was, I don't know, a tale of two stories I guess. So they, they, on analyst's six expectations of earnings per share, they hit on that, but they were down revenue. They missed revenue in their reports. So specifically, they had earnings per share, five cents, that were in line with estimates. The revenue number of 39.7 million was a 2.3 decrease, 3% decrease from last year, notably Dice, they have three job boards, as most of our listeners know. They have Dice, Clearance Jobs, and eFinancialCareers. Dice was down 8% year over year, and brought in 23.5 million. So it's still bringing in the lion's share of revenue, but it had the biggest decrease of the three businesses. Clearance Jobs seems like it's doing pretty well, although it's the smallest of the three businesses.

Joel: Now what was notable to me was that Art was very, he was very transparent about what was going on, what was wrong with the company. And he mentioned a few things, like the design of the site kinda sucks, we need to fix that. We need to retain our current clients in a much better fashion than we currently do, apparently they're bleeding clients, which is bad. And they spent too much time fixing what's broken, as opposed to building new feature sets and new cool products. So it was great to see him sort of outline the problems I think we both have seen or at least expected for a while, and hopefully they are fixing those problems and can move forward.

Chad: Yeah, I mean this is his time to be able to do that, because it's not his baby, so he can call this baby ugly, right? But that's gonna change. I mean there's gonna be a time when he's been there long enough, from a leadership standpoint, to be able to make these moves, make these changes. We always talk about technical debt and things like that, these companies have, and they have a ton of because they've been around for so goddamned long.

Joel: Yep.

Chad: The biggest question is how do you remake yourself? Do you continue to try to play that maintenance game and build something on top of this old, technical debt shit that you have? Or do you start anew, and go in parallel. That's the big question, and that's gonna be an answer that he has to come up with, and in a couple more earnings calls, there's not gonna be, it's gonna be his baby. It's not gonna be Mike's baby, it's gonna be his baby, and he better get his shit straight.

Joel: Yeah, it's easy to be transparent when it's someone else's dirty laundry, right? But harder otherwise. You know, I think ... personally I think one of Dice's biggest hurdles is the Dice brand. In that, I think tech people think of Dice as a job board, and the best of the best developers aren't on job boards, they would never sink so low as to sort of hang out at a job board. They'd want to hang out at GitHub and these cool sites for programmers. So to me that's an issue I'm not sure he'll ever be able to fix.

Chad: Here's what it comes down to, okay. You have customers and revenues that are happening right now so you can't shut that system down. You have to continue to maintain and play that technical debt game. One of the things that Monster didn't do, and they were fucking stupid because they didn't do this, is they didn't run a parallel line of business which had an entirely new brand, right, could be a sister company or what have you, that was going to be the Indeed, or the next version of what Monster should be. Instead of trying to fix it with bailing wire and duct tape and zip ties and shit like that, run parallel, it's not like you don't have the money to be able to do something like this, right? You're not gonna be able to do what you want on this old ass system.

Chad: Now, all the data that you have, all that data from the company standpoint and from the job seeker's standpoint, you should be able to siphon that off and use it in these new platforms.

Joel: I think Dice should go buy a brand that's cool, Code Signal, Overflow, something that's not a job board, but appeals to developers. And then slowly start putting Dice's jobs on that site. That would be my strategy, but again he's not writing me any checks anyway, that's free advice, do with it what you will, but to me I think Dice will always be associated with job boards.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: And job postings. And the best developers don't want anything to do with that.

Chad: No. Not in the least.

Joel: So let's talk about a new, hip, exciting, progressive, awesome company.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: I won't saw awesome, but in the news, trending, Slack is raising more frickin' money.

Chad: Dude.

Joel: I think they're like, round G at this point.

Chad: It is fucking ridiculous.

Joel: They're looking for $400 million to put them at a $7 billion valuation. Which, by the way, let me remind you that we just talked about Dice's revenues at 25, 30. 40 billion, or 40 million in a quarter, like this is a messaging app! Or at least it is today. Looking for more money, which seems mind boggling to some degree, but Microsoft has finally admitted, publicly, that Slack is a competitor, so I gotta think maybe, although I think you pooh-poohed it a while back in a podcast, that Slack is maybe looking to take on the big boys, the Microsofts, the Googles, and why else would they be raising so much money?

Chad: First and foremost, never use "pooh-poohed", okay? Second, looking on Crunch Base, so they've had 11 rounds of funding at $1.2 billion, so yes, they are going to have to do something. One of two things. If they're going to try to take the big guys head to head, they're definitely going to have to continue to raise a shit ton of money. On the second side, where I still see that they could do well, not if they continue raising money though, is that exit. Actually being able to sell into a bigger ecosystem. Obviously it's not gonna be Microsoft, because Microsoft sees Slack as a competitor, which we said a few weeks ago. But who else out there can actually afford, after all this fucking funding, how could they afford it?

Joel: Yeah, they have to go public. I mean, I agree, I don't think anyone's gonna buy them at this valuation-

Chad: No!

Joel: We could be shocked, right? I mean LinkedIn was bought for 26 billion, so there is a chance that Slack could be acquired, and I still hold out that Amazon may come in and buy them at some point. But yeah, they've got, they've got definitely bigger aspirations than just being a messaging app.

Chad: Dude.

Joel: I don't know what that is, maybe it's communication in multiple ways, or office stuff, or recruiting stuff, like I'm not really sure, but it's interesting to watch, if nothing else. They're reporting that they have 500 thousand users of Slack, now a lot of those are like one, two people companies that don't matter, but it's a decent number.

Chad: Yeah. How many are paid, though? I mean those aren't all paid clients, are they?

Joel: The small guys for sure are free.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: And the bigger companies do. And they have an app store, assuming they're making some money off of anything that's paid off of that, but I mean they're building an ecosystem, they're building a platform, it's just a matter of what do they want to provide, and who do they want to compete against with this 1.whatever billion dollars that they've got in investment money.

Chad: No clue, but we're watching, and we're salivating as they either play the Titanic or they get saved.

Joel: This is either gonna be like a Groupon thing, where they just, they go public and fade, they don't make money, and you know ... I mean, Groupon makes money, I'm just saying like, it's like a hot company with a lot of money and a lot of attention, and if they just say no to everyone and go public, it'll be interesting to see what happens. But yeah, Slack, and by the way, Facebook is full bore into this messaging thing. Like they're not fooling around with their at-work product to compete with these guys for messaging, so we'll see.

Joel: Well, when we get back, let's take a quick break, we'll talk Google and Textio. But Sovren first!

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Joel: Time to talk Google, which we never do.

Chad: Yeah, yeah.

Joel: So this is in my SEO, geeky wheelhouse, I'm kind of excited about this rumor/screenshot that we got last week. So, in one of the messaging groups that I'm in, someone shared a screenshot of Google's homepage with ... so Google on Chrome, you see the search box, and then you see you know, screenshots of websites that you visit a lot. In between the search box and the frequently visited websites were recommended or related job searches for this user to click on. The related searches that came up for this particular user were editorial assistant jobs, resident assistant jobs, artist assistant jobs, and accounting assistant jobs. So what can we guess from that information?

Chad: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's all about history, and they're just serving up where that individual's been and the searches that they've done, obviously, and we know that most of the job searches that land anywhere start on Google. So I mean, it just makes sense to be able to serve that up. Now this individual also, I believe, by, if I remember the screenshot, also went to one of the favorited or the most trafficked sites was Indeed, and it looks like this individual's actually in maybe a recruiting or staffing kind of function. So they're there always. So yeah, just the opportunity to be able to serve up relevant information, and in this case, it was specifically jobs on that Chrome homepage, that was pretty awesome.

Joel: Yes, so Google is very conservative with their homepage. I mean, over the years, they've lived on simplicity, they've thrived on simplicity, so for them to do anything on the homepage is sort of a big deal. Yes, this user's most visited sites included Indeed, I'm guessing that if Google is tracking their search behavior, they're searching for jobs a lot, potentially, or looking at job content a lot. I assume if you're looking for Mexican restaurants a lot in your hometown, maybe they're serving up Mexican restaurants-

Chad: How did you know?

Joel: Preemptively before you go on and search, yeah. So Google's getting really smart, but I'd be curious to know if they're doing it for other things beside job listings on their site. Like are they doing it for restaurants or doing it for concerts and sporting events around town, but it clearly, if it's job specific it shows a extreme level of importance that Google currently has for getting people to their job postings.

Chad: So if you're a listener out there and you just, you use Chrome, and you go to just open a browser and you can see the, pretty much it's the most visited websites, and they have them already set up there for you, nice screenshots, let us know if you see more than that. If you see jobs, or you see food, or you see something that's more than just those sites that you normally go to, it'd be cool. And send some screenshots to us.

Joel: Yeah, for sure. And it's probably a good time to mention Bogomil, our good friend and head of the Google For Hire, whatever we're calling it today, initiative is leaving the company.

Chad: He is.

Joel: And handing the reins over to someone else. So I don't know if you want to read anything into that, but I don't know that I do. I don't think Google For Hire is crap, I don't think, I think it's just-

Joel: He's gonna be on sabbatical right? So who knows what he's doing, but Bogomil, I assume you're not coming back to our space any time soon. It was a pleasure meeting you, working with you, interviewing you, good luck.

Chad: Very good guy. Very transparent, as much as somebody from Google can be, and from my understanding Tarquin Clark is actually going to be taking over. We'll find out. We'll get more information. Tarquin is a go-to market guy on the API side so all that we've been talking about with the job search API, with Johnson & Johnson, Careerbuilder and all those different Jibe and whatnot, he was the guy who spearheaded that. It's definitely in good hands. Tarquin's a great guy and he's going to have his hands full. There's a new API that's open for candidate search and obviously now wondering if it's gonna be under his purview as well, Hire by Google, because that would be awesome in signaling that perspectively all of those come under one umbrella.

Joel: Yep, yep. Tarquin has big shoes to fill for sure.

Chad: Yep.

Joel: But we hope he keeps the channels of communication open. Bogomil presented at TA Tech in Dublin. They've been really transparent in letting us know what's going on so hopefully the spirit of that continues and I assume that it will.

Chad: I'm pretty confident that he will. He's a good guy, a good guy and he definitely wants to get the message out there.

Joel: Well moving on to our Make America Great Again portion of the show.

Chad: Jesus.

Joel: Textio, who we don't really talk about I don't think ever on this show, but they do some pretty cool stuff with key words and job postings and helping companies put the right language in copy and shoot ... comparing it to other job postings they have in the system and which ones are most successful and whatever, so anyway, they sent out a report this week that talked about the amount of relocation language in job postings versus a year ago, and there's been a 25%, I believe, in language on job postings about relocating to the U.S. So the Trump effect I guess is either scaring companies about wanting to get immigrants to come over or they think there's regulation that's gonna take place that makes it harder to hire immigrants, but yeah, that was an interesting news tidbit for me for sure.

Chad: I think it's, and take it how you will, I think it's an immigration and a tariff issue.

We see companies who are actually moving overseas, Harley Davidson, just because, just from a tariff standpoint they have to be able to do that to grow globally and to sell globally. What I took out of the article, which I thought was pretty interesting, was just that. The larger global corporate presence where HubSpot is opening a Berlin office, Microsoft opening in Dublin, and so on and so forth, and this has implications not on the immigration patterns overall, but for the global economy.

Chad: To be able to speed that up, and I'll give you a great example, to be able to speed that up, let's say in bourbon. Bourbon is big globally and it's growing in many different areas throughout the world, but these tariffs could make it much easier for another alcohol beverage, alcoholic beverage, to fill that gap, and we're not just talking about short term, we're talking about long term, the same thing happens. So what does that actually mean for jobs? Now, will some companies have to actually move to be able to sell? To be able to keep that market share? To be able to grow that market share? So yeah, I think this is an indication from Textio, which is interesting that it's coming from them, that there's a sharp decrease, I mean very sharp, 25% decrease.

Joel: Your thesis, let me get this right, is that companies are opening up overseas locations which excludes the need to relocate to the U.S. Instead, the companies are relocating to other countries and hiring in those areas. Is that your thesis?

Chad: I think it's both from an immigration standpoint that we need people, first off, we need people so we can't ... we've got to get rid of some of the things that we're looking for as barriers to actually getting warm bodies to do the job, that's number one. Then number two, yes, the actual movement, and again, our government is doing ... they're making these decisions and there are ramifications for every decision. Yes, there are positives, what are the negatives? These are some of the negatives that I am seeing.

Joel: Between the wall, if you will. Build the wall, baby. Keep everyone out. We don't want you.

Chad: Yeah, we don't want you so that we can't have people actually doing jobs and our companies fail because we can't put out product. Yeah, that's probably the dumbest shit ever.

Joel: Yeah. We could go on about free trade for a long time.

Chad: Whoo.

Joel: But we both have followers in the ultra Trump wing that would go off in a big way. Disability story. This is your wheelhouse. What's going on?

Chad: Yeah. So as most of our listeners know, my wife is ... she's in this space and she focuses on building retiring programs for big brands for individuals with disabilities. These are companies who really care about trying to inject other talent pools into their jobs, because again, we take a look at the unemployment rate today, it's incredibly low. We've got to look at other pools.

Chad: A new study actually identified that the hiring bias against individuals with disabilities and, go figure, the individuals with disabilities are like 2.6% more likely to be unemployed in the general population, and companies are just taking their bias and saying, "Well, individuals with disabilities can't do this job." They don't know that, they just have their own bias and this study is actually demonstrating that the bias is real. Not only are the unemployment numbers demonstrating that the bias is real, but the study did as well.

Joel: We hear a lot about programmatic ad buying and AI solving these issues, how do you feel about that? Do you think that the machines will fix a lot of these biases, or do you think that it will accentuate them or not solve them at all?

Chad: Yeah, I think in some cases they might, so that an individual can actually get through the interview and they can come on site possibly for a face to face interview or something of that nature, but when that happens in some cases, if they show up in a wheelchair, even though it might be a desk job, there's still that inherent bias that happens. That's the problem. That's one of the big problems that we see.

Joel: Yeah, I don't know if there's an easy solution to this problem.

Chad: Another thing is that the studied showed is that low expectations is the curse of people with disabilities. Again, my wife getting hundreds and hundreds of individuals with disabilities into jobs, I mean, that's her focus and that's what Disability Solutions, who actually sponsors the transcriptions for this podcast, that's what they do, and they have to get through those myths and biases everyday. They actually have training specific to that, because they know this is real, and to have a system, to have a program to actually do hiring that is unbiased, you've got to spend money. If you just think that you can do it off of free resources, then you're kidding yourself. Don't say that you want to hire individuals with disabilities unless you get people in there who can help you do that. The studies constantly show this, but yet we're not changing our behavior.

Joel: Do you think the gig economy is an overall plus for people with disabilities, so the Upworks, the Fiverrs, where it's not an interview, it's just a meritocracy. If you can do the job and get good reviews, you get more work and the wheel goes around. What are your thoughts on the gig economy and disability and what would Julie's sort of commentary be?

Chad: I would say yeah, if they can be plugged into it and they can do jobs from home, depending on what the actual jobs are, yeah. Just being able to provide the opportunity out there and say, "Hey, here's a project. Who can do this project? Bid on the project. Boom, you get the project, you do the project." That's what it comes down to. That's what we should be focused on every single day as opposed to looking at somebody who comes into an organization who might be deaf. Well, they can't do the job. Well why? Why can't they do the job? What accommodations, which probably aren't gonna cost you very much, what types of accommodations would you have to put in place that wouldn't just be better for this person, but would be better for the entire organization?

Joel: Do you know the numbers of people with disabilities and how long they typically stay at a company?

Chad: Okay, so, and this is probably where we should do like an interview with Julie or somebody over there, but some of the data that she's actually shown me is that the retention for individuals with disabilities of the projects that she's working, in very big brands right now, is like so much higher. I would say just from trying to remember 20% higher if not more than just your regular employee. They stay longer. The retention ... and again, you've got to remember. It's one of those situations where when you've never been given a chance, never been given a chance before, now you're given a chance. That really means something to you. There's a loyalty, there's a bond that's there that we don't see in the workforce anymore. These guys are actually demonstrating that through hiring individuals with disabilities and seeing the retention.

Joel: Well on that note, let's hear ... if you have compliance issues hiring people with disabilities, American's Job Exchange might be able to help you out. Let's hear from them and when we come back, we'll talk cheerleaders, believe it or not.

Chad: Oh god.

AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment, designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284, or visit us at

Joel: Football is right around the corner, Chad.

Chad: Can't wait, dude. I am so stoked.

Joel: Can't wait. Preseason starts tonight.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: So disabilities, equality, it hits football as well. We had a story this week. The New Orleans Saints and the LA Rams for the first time will have male dancers/cheerleaders.

Chad: Yeah. Why not. The thing that I never really even pondered or understood was why didn't they in the first place? If you see cheerleaders in college-

Joel: They have men.

Chad: Yeah. Male, female. I never really understood that. Not to mention from a demographic standpoint, I understand football for a very long time was a very focused demographic on the male side of the house. You want to have hot females doing the cheerleader stuff. Totally get that. But if you want to broaden that up, if you want to be able to once again make more money, NFL, which I would have thought they would have thought this through a long time ago, you'd have males. It just makes sense, not to mention, again, looking for equality all the way around.

Joel: Yeah, I agree. I will note that real football teams don't even have female cheerleaders. As a Browns fan, it's a point of pride that we're so old school, we have no logo, no cheerleaders, and we usually have no wins, but that's a different subject.

Chad: Entirely.

Joel: Steelers don't have cheerleaders, Packers don't have cheerleaders. There are a lot of old, traditional franchises that don't have cheerleaders, male or female, so I will do a little hat tip to those old school football teams.

Chad: Yeah. Again, if that's a part of the culture and that's a part of their culture. But obviously the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, that's been a marketing scheme for them for a very long time. They've gotten shit tons of cash because of having cheerleaders on the sideline and calendars and videos and you name it.

Joel: Yeah. Will they be the last team to have male cheerleaders that have cheerleaders?

Chad: I would say yeah, because Jerry Jones is way too old school to change anything that he's doing.

Joel: I agree, I agree. Well, anyway, that's all we got on male cheerleaders. I'm kinda out of gas this week. If you're ready, I say we out.

Chad: We out.

Ema: Hi. I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy, Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit

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