LIVE at HIREconf in NYC


Live from New York, the boys recorded the weekly show at HireConf, HiringSolved's conference. In addition to covering news from Monster, Dice, Glassdoor and Under Armour, there's a riveting interview with HiringSolved co-founder and CEO Shon Burton. Enjoy, and visit sponsors Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

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Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman, are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast.

Chad: This week Chad and Cheese was live from New York City and HIREconf, brought to you by the wonderful people at HiringSolved. Enjoy after a word from our sponsor.

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Chad: Whew, hello New York, bring it.

Audience: Woo!

Joel: Dude, you said that would feel like we were in a rock band, and it was pretty close.

Chad: It was pretty close.

Joel: It was pretty close.

Chad: Yeah, I thought, let's move in, yeah, that was good stuff.

Joel: Who knows who we are, anyone?

Audience: Woo!

Chad: Who doesn't know who we are? Shame.

Joel: All right.

Chad: Shame.

Joel: I'm the good cop. We have a podcast, for those of you, who don't know who we are. We cover a weekly show, where we cover the industry, who's buying, who's getting money, who's going out of business, who sucks. We cover that. We have a show called Firing Squad, what's sort of like Shark Tank for the employment industry, and we have two.

Chad: Without the millionaires.

Joel: Then we have two shows, where we dig deep into subject matter like automation and chatbots and shit like that. We will cuss during the show, so if you're offended by any of that, fuck it.

Chad: Ear muffs.

Joel: This is a live show, this will be our weekly show. I'm ready to go at it, unless anyone has any questions, we're going to launch into the show.

Chad: Questions, comments. Okay and we won't be using ear muffs, so you're just going to have to do it yourself, right, so.

Joel: All right.

Chad: Hit it.

Joel: Live from New York, it's the Chad & Cheese Podcast.

Chad: Bring it.

Joel: Yep, HR's most dangerous podcast is in the Big Apple. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm drunk Chad Sowash.

Joel: On this week's show, turns out everyone actually is looking for a job, every minute of every day. Under Armour is not okay with those three martini lunches, at the local strip club anymore.

Chad: What?

Joel: And we get a few good minutes with HiringSolved's founder and CEO, Shon Burton.

Chad: Woo.

Audience: Woo.

Joel: Let's do it, so let's do shout outs.

Chad: Do it, okay. First and foremost, shout out for the beer, Shane Gray, everybody, Shane Gray. Came all the way from Dublin, just to be able to deliver Modelo Beer.

Joel: It's not a party if the Irishman is not here.

Chad: That is good shit, yeah.

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: I mean, that's obviously his first.

Joel: Modelo from the Irish guy.

Chad: Ed from Philly, stand up buddy.

Ed: I don't wanna stand up.

Joel: Yeah, no.

Chad: He's a super fan right there, bringing all the hate from Philly that you can get, we love the man.

Ed: Boo.

Chad: See.

Joel: Early on, Ed's been there for us and we're here for you Ed.

Chad: We're here for him.

Joel: Always.

Chad: He needs friends though, so.

Joel: Jo Weech. She's in the audience, there we go.

Chad: Super fan.

Joel: Super fan is here.

Chad: Love her.

Joel: Front row, no panties. No panties or bras on the stage, if you were thinking about it. Audra Knight, is on our shout out list, as well. Chris Russell. Tincup is not here, although he's on the list.

Chad: There he is.

Joel: Yeah, if you're in New York, Chris will be somewhere eating pizza or drinking.

Chad: Or both. Yeah. So Ross Henderson, gave us a shout out.

Joel: Yes, Ross Henderson of LinkedIn. And you know I love to drink the LinkedIn Kool-Aid.

Chad: You are such a stinker.

Joel: Ross Henderson, LinkedIn, super fan. He calls us an unvarnished show, in a good way, which is nice.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, in a good way. Jorge, I'm going to screw this up so badly. Albinagorta.

Joel: Is he here?

Chad: No, I don't think so.

Joel: Oh, okay, well, who cares if he says your name.

Chad: Yeah, just love. We got to give people love, who listen and show up as well. And Jackie because she said she's going to dance.

Joel: Jackie is going to dance?

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Nice. Nice.

Chad: She needs to get a beer though, you need a beer to dance.

Joel: I had one, Debbie Salado.

Chad: Huh?

Joel: Is she here? I threw it in.

Audience: She was here yesterday.

Joel: She was here yesterday.

Chad: Okay.

Joel: All right, well shout out to her.

Chad: Sucks to be you Debbie, you're not here. Susanna Frazier, where's she at? Here somewhere. Yeah, no, she tweeted a top five recruitment podcast list out. Have you ever seen these podcast lists? Right, they're like, hey top five, this is what you should listen to. Matt O'Donnell, actually gave us a good response and said-

Joel: Wait, we weren't on the list of podcasts though.

Chad: We weren't on the list, yeah.

Joel: Like you need to add that, it's kind of, an important-

Chad: Matt said the fact that hashtag Chad Cheese isn't on the list, is a shock.

Joel: It's kind of bullshit, I don't know.

Chad: Yeah, it's bullshit.

Joel: Just saying.

Chad: John, okay this is awesome. We asked definitely to connect on LinkedIn and Facebook and tweets, you know hashtag Chad Cheese. So I got called out on LinkedIn. Jon Hedlund. Apparently I took too long, to accept his LinkedIn invitation. This was John's response, "Fucking six weeks for the Chad to accept." And that was it. That was it, so shout out to John. Yeah, Jon I'd say that I'm sorry that it took me that long but dude.

Joel: So many haters.

Chad: But I don't sit on LinkedIn, waiting for motherfuckers to send me invites. Like I just don't do that.

Joel: Recruiters have no patience, at all.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not my job, I don't do that.

Joel: Ed Newman gone crazy, we'll give him a quick shout out.

Chad: Jesus Christ.

Joel: Ed Newman, a lot of you know in the industry, Phenom People. If you listen to our podcast and a lot of you do, you know that we were at iCIMS, a few weeks ago.

Chad: I'll just say right.

Joel: We're saying to their CEO, talking about destroying the middle-men of which he named Phenom, as one of those middle-men. Well, Ed Newman took, not too kindly to that comment. His so, in all fairness, Ed's take on this is, it's iCIMS, that is the middle man, they're getting crushed on the down. The smaller businesses are being serviced by Lever, Greenhouse, the big enterprises are being serviced by Workday and the Goliaths like that. And it's the ATSs like iCIMS, that are sort of stuck in the middle.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: In fairness to Ed, he's been around a long time, he knows the industry. He is sort of lobbying for his, you know his folks.

Chad: Yeah, yeah.

Joel: But time will tell, exactly who wins that game and who doesn't.

Chad: Yeah, I think we've seen this, throughout the years, right? The whole cycles of the big Uber enterprise systems and then they just crash because they suck. Because they have all these things that they try to do and they don't do anything well. So, yeah. I think the middle-men, they are niche players that were born because user experience sucked, right?

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: But if he doesn't think that he's a middle man, he is so full of shit. I don't think that they're going away but they, he's a middle man. That's all he is.

Joel: He's a layer, I believe is what-

Chad: Yeah, a layer, which is a middle man.

Joel: ... the vernacular is.

Chad: Yeah, yeah. Colin Day says he's a middle man, I say he's a middle man.

Joel: We'll see. No, he believes that they're at least five years ahead of any other ATS, that wants to do what Phenom people does.

Chad: Okay.

Joel: Any Phenom users, in the audience?

Chad: Yeah, I think that says it all guys.

Joel: Darn it.

Chad: No hands, no hands.

Joel: Any iCIMS users in the audience?

Chad: Yeah, I think that says it all Ed Newman.

Joel: iCIMS wins, okay.

Chad: No, I think somebody did raise a hand but it was very slow, it was like ah shit, I'm the only user here, damn it. Yeah, so you had one Ed, that was it. Yeah, so no, we love you Ed but dude, you're a middle man, get over it.

Joel: Let's do a Russian shout out, real quick.

Chad: Okay. Firing squad. Firing squad we just talked about. We're pleasantly surprised. Has anybody heard of these things called chatbots that are out there?

Audience: Yeah, no.

Chad: Right, yeah, no shit, right? Yeah, duh.

Joel: Who hates chatbots? Not yet, okay, give it time.

Chad: All over the place. Everybody, chatbot, chatbot, for everything there's a chatbot, right? We were getting ready to flame the hell out of this Russian chatbot. I mean literally.

Joel: The chatbot wasn't Russian. The founders of the company are Russian.

Chad: Which means it was a Russian chatbot, anyway. So anyway, we're getting ready to flame this and she comes on and she did a wonderful job. If you haven't heard, it's XOR.ai. Check out the firing squad.

Joel: X-O-R.ai, which I thought was the worst name since-

Chad: XOR, yeah.

Joel: Go Cavas.io, but.

Chad: If you're into math you know Xor, like an Xor gate and that's, she's a mathematician. So it's all kind of.

Joel: Nerd alert.

Chad: Yeah, anyway, sorry about that. Too deep, too far.

Joel: And the last one we have is The Hiring squad, crew, let's brown nose them for a second. Jeremy, Sean.

Chad: Woo.

Joel: Everybody, yeah, let's hear it for The HiringSolved crew, woo.

Audience: Woo, woo.

Chad: They got suckered into bringing us on stage, yes.

Audience: Yeah.

Chad: Love it, love it.

Joel: All right. Let's get to the show.

Chad: Hit it.

Joel: All right. DHI.

Chad: Everybody knows DHI.

Joel: The artist known as Dice, Clearancejobs and eFinancialCareers, reported earnings, this past quarter. Dice is down again. 6% lower this year, over last year.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Not good. They have a new CEO, as most of you know. Art Zeile.

Chad: Art.

Joel: Who by the way, spoke at-

Chad: TAtech.

Joel: TAtech.

Chad: TAtech, yeah, yeah.

Joel: We begged him for an interview. He's like, "No problem." We never saw him.

Chad: He's like, "Yeah, I'll be right there."

Joel: Never saw him again.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: He was gone, yeah.

Chad: He was ninja-ed out of there.

Joel: We drove him out.

Chad: He's like, fuck this, I'm not doing it.

Joel: It's not all bad news, I guess for Dice. Clearancejobs revenue was up 22% higher than the prior year.

Chad: It's not all bad news for Dice, they're down in this economy? Are you, who I mean, is anybody?

Joel: Well tech is down in this economy.

Chad: Is anybody recruiting for technology today, at all? There's a little bit, maybe.

Joel: For the listeners, 80% of the hands go up.

Chad: Are you freaking kidding me. Yeah, there's a show of hands, sorry guys.

Joel: Who uses Dice, anyone? This is the fun part of an interactive show.

Chad: There's one, two, okay.

Joel: Keep your hand up if you're happy with your Dice experience. We won't name names.

Chad: Yeah, zero, okay.

Joel: Okay, hand went down, bummer.

Chad: So this is what I'm saying, this is bullshit because in this type of an economy, these guys should be killing it. But then you take a look at Clearancejobs, Clearancejobs is killing it. So what are they doing different than what Dice is?

Joel: Well there's a need for Clearance.

Chad: There's a need for both.

Joel: Peeps.

Chad: There's a need for both, what are they doing different?

Joel: Well you said, what are they doing right?

Chad: What are they doing different? Because obviously they're doing something right, what are they doing?

Joel: They're one of the only brands out there, for Clearance, I think. I mean there aren't a lot of sites you think about when you need, you know Clearance folks for government and whatever positions.

Chad: Yeah, yeah.

Joel: But if you said, how do I recruit tech people, you can come up with 20 sites immediately.

Chad: It's not cool to be on Dice anymore, is it? I mean if you're-

Chris Russell: Sourcing is killing Dice.

Chad: Sourcing is killing Dice.

Joel: Sourcing is killing Dice from the cheap seats, thank you Chris Russell.

Chad: Hey yeah, Chris Russell. Chris Russell.

Joel: Nice.

Chad: So I mean but it's not cool, is it cool to be in tech on-

Joel: Tech people don't want to be on a job board, right?

Chad: ... on Dice anymore, is it cool?

Joel: If you're the best tech person in the world, do you want to be on a job board called Dice?

Chad: No.

Joel: You want to be on GitHub, showing off your shit.

Chad: Yeah, until LinkedIn screws that shit up.

Joel: Do we have anything else to say about Dice?

Chad: No.

Joel: And DHI?

Chad: No, I'm just, they-

Joel: Art.

Chad: Art.

Joel: Come on the show.

Chad: Get your shit together Art.

Joel: Art, come on the show.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: We want to talk to you. Speaking of dinosaurs in the industry, Monster has a survey out this week.

Audience: Ah.

Joel: Which is a fun little survey.

Chad: Yeah and they were down too.

Joel: They found that 63% of employees.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Dream about a new job all day, every day, every minute of every day. It is true, everyone is an active candidate.

Chad: Who's the sorcerer? Good news.

Joel: Everyone is an active candidate.

Chad: Who's a recruiter? Good news, yes.

Joel: Is that all your commentary on that, that you're going to give me?

Chad: There's not much to say, I mean seriously. I mean how, what's the ... We were talking about underemployment, I think yesterday, Sean said something about it. That's one of the biggest issues that we see. I mean it, let's just say in one of my verticals that I work in, on the veteran side of the house. Yeah, employment's up but underemployment is horrible for individuals in that sector. Yeah, they have a job but they're incredibly underemployed. Yeah, I mean I'd be thinking about a new god damn job every day too, if I was

underemployed and I knew that I was qualified for something more, right?

Joel: There's a great quote for those who used to watch the Drew Carey show, The Drew Carey Show. Where he says, "Oh you hate your job, oh there's a group for that, they meet every day at the bar." Anyway. What else did the findings say?

Chad: I know.

Joel: 8% said they think about a new job on bad days, only 8%. And 3% said they couldn't imagine working a different job because they love their current job so much. That's heartwarming at 3%.

Chad: That was because they were taking a survey.

Joel: Groundswell of people.

Chad: They were taking a survey and they knew that the Google big brother was watching.

Joel: Well, you know that is like us, that'd want to talk about it.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Because we like, that kind of stuff. All right moving on to, soon to be dinosaur, Glassdoor. Few tidbits on them. Any Glassdoor users in the audience? Love the interactivity, okay quite a few.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Quite a few. If you're thinking about using Glassdoor, their 30 day trial period is ending, if it hasn't ended already. An email went out to some folks it said, "The 30 day trial is over."

Chad: More freebies.

Joel: We think that this segues nicely into Indeed, not giving away anything for free anymore. As they bought Glassdoor or at least, their company bought Glassdoor. So Glassdoor and Indeed are basically the same thing. My contention is that, Glassdoor won't be around in a few years. They're going to get hot jobbed.

Audience: Hot jobbed, hot jobbed.

Joel: The reviews will go over to Indeed.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: The job postings are already in Indeed and all the candidates, which is our second news item, will also go to Indeed. So Glassdoor updated their terms and service, this week.

Chad: Well wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, time out.

Joel: All right.

Chad: Everybody knows, I mean Indeed is obviously pushing staffing off of, unless you pay. Because your jobs suck, unless you give us money. And then they don't suck anymore, right? But the thing is, from the, at least insiders that we've talked to, is that it seems like they actually make more money, they being Indeed, after they kick staffing out of their organic. Because they feel like they need it so badly, that they're willing to pay three times as much, in some cases, to be able to get that traffic back. Anybody feeling that, anyone? No names, okay good.

Chad: Being able to take a look at Glassdoor, starting to see these, kind of like these Indeed movements, into the Glassdoor space. I mean, where do you think that's actually going to go? Do you think it's going to be one brand and how quick do you think that's going to happen?

Joel: Yeah, it doesn't make sense to keep two brands alive, as is. I mean, Indeed already has upgraded their profiles for companies. They've added analytics to that, so I think it's just a matter of time before you're, you have one profile. All their views go over to Indeed, they become this huge monolithic employer review site. Until Google starts getting reviews and or LinkedIn starts having reviews as well.

Joel: But it makes no sense to have two sites, they'll bring over some talent. They'll take away any duplicitous jobs, that are with both companies. And I think Indeed is the stronger brand, anyway. It's also very telling that if you were at HR Tech, one of the glaring admissions from the show, was Glassdoor. There was no Glassdoor.

Chad: There was no Glassdoor, yeah.

Joel: At the show.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: HR Tech tends to be a show that a Glassdoor would show up.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: And exhibit and they weren't there, which to me was another thing like, why are we spending money when the brand isn't going to be around for much longer.

Chad: Google wasn't there, Facebook wasn't there, so I mean.

Joel: They don't need to be there.

Chad: You can read into it.

Joel: Some brands are bigger than HR Tech.

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Announcer: It's show time.

Chad: I don't know that.

Joel: Microsoft was there though, remember that?

Chad: I mean I see, yeah.

Joel: Microsoft had a 10 by 10 booth.

Chad: Microsoft had two booths, they had one glorious booth and they had this little one with two guys. It looked like in a garage band. They were like selling Dynamics 365. That's all they were there for, was Dynamics 365. Literally, it was just a regular booth, like garage band. Come on up, guy had like his shirt half tucked in and it was not Microsoft.

Joel: Which wasn't as bad as the crowded booth, which had a toilet in the booth.

Chad: Yeah that was, yeah. How did you manage that?

Joel: Yes, they had it.

Chad: Yeah, okay so.

Joel: Yeah, it was a 10 by 10, they had a toilet. It wasn't, it didn't have water. It wasn't a working toilet.

Chad: Right.

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: Okay so.

Joel: And some graffiti wall on the background.

Chad: Yeah, so my take on the whole merging brands, I think it's going to happen just because of the hubris of Indeed. Everybody just believes that everybody is going to come to Indeed anyways. But I don't think it makes a hell of a lot of sense because once again, you're taking two different revenue streams and they're going to smack them together. And they're going to lose in some things.

Joel: But it's also two cost centers.

Chad: Yeah, in some cases. But they're going to see one brand.

Joel: It cost money to run Glassdoor.

Chad: When you see one brand and you think that you can squeeze something out of that, and put it to something else, that's some, it's entirely different.

Joel: Okay then, okay they may not hot job it, but maybe they'll Simply Hired it, where they just put their jobs on the site. You can still go to Glassdoor, you can still use it but it's all.

Chad: You can, posting your blogs on there too.

Joel: Plus as an employer, they'd rather you go to one site.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Being Indeed and maybe they'll say, we'll cross post it to Glassdoor for an extra fee. Now in that case, they might keep Glassdoor if they're upgrading the postings.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel: But yeah.

Chad: I think that's telling though. I mean Simply Hired is still around, I have no clue why. But Simply Hired is still around.

Joel: They're still doing surveys, interestingly enough.

Chad: And content.

Joel: Anyway, we talked about that on the last show.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel: But you can't post jobs just on Simply Hired. It's just, Indeed's feed, basically.

Chad: Okay, but it still exists.

Joel: I think Glassdoor, if it-

Chad: But it still exists, that's my point.

Joel: Yeah, okay.

Chad: That's my point.

Joel: For no reason whatsoever, in my opinion, do they exist. Let's talk about strip clubs.

Chad: Again, okay.

Joel: Because the show is dying, we need to spark it up a little bit. We don't get radio silence on the podcast, we just think everyone is still listening.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Under Armour, a little known company out in Maryland. Apparently strip clubs were an expensable thing. How many of you work at a company that you can expense strip club trips? A couple hands, I like.

Chad: Oh yeah.

Joel: Who do you work for?

Audience: A staffing company.

Joel: Under Armour, okay great, no.

Chad: Man Monster, in the early Monster days, I mean I think that was like probably 50% of the expenses back then.

Joel: You heard it here first folks.

Chad: Not mine, yeah I know. Because we had so many staffing companies, that's why. Clients.

Joel: So Under Armour has made it, they've banned strip club trips, being expensable, expendable.

Chad: Yeah, whatever.

Joel: Expensive, I don't know.

Audience: Expensive.

Chad: Expensive.

Joel: Expensive, there you go, we'll go with that. I don't have a comment, I just think that's really funny that news came out.

Chad: Well I think it's interesting that they put an email out. I mean that, okay so they had to put an email out to employees, to announce this. I mean this is not like you know, in 2000 or something like that, right? This is 2018 and this is something that they had to actually adjust to. Then and this also springboards into what happened in Google, was it last week? The protests at Google?

Joel: The walkout, yeah.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: The big walkout.

Chad: I mean how do we do this in 2018? We've got Google one week, who has thousands of Googlers walking out, right? Because of some idiot, who gets a $90 million parachute, out of the company. But thousands and then the next week.

Joel: Alleged sexual harasser.

Chad: The next week.

Joel: You should probably add to that.

Chad: Alleged, whatever, he's an asshole.

Joel: Idiot is not quite descriptive enough.

Chad: Yeah, that's a good call.

Joel: Okay.

Chad: But the next week, no strip clubs, the next week. Seriously?

Joel: One Googler said on the walkout.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Quote, "They told me I'm no longer allowed to talk to anybody about this issue, they recommended therapy."

Chad: They recommended therapy, yeah.

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Announcer: It's show time.

Chad: That being said.

Joel: You know who else we should take a look at, Mr. Shon Burton, CEO and founder of HiringSolved.

Audience: Woo!

Joel: Come on up Shon.

Audience: Woo!

Shon: But I didn't.

Joel: But we have dollar bills, just in case you change your minds.

Chad: Yeah, yeah no, we got, we got.

Joel: Jeremy, are we good on time? What do we got? The clock's running but.

Chad: Right there, yeah, no, we're good.

Joel: Oh it's counting down.

Chad: Oh yeah.

Joel: Okay, I'm quick.

Chad: That's the smart one.

Joel: Oh, we got-

Chad: So yesterday there was a fireside chat and we really talked about the real close, who is Shon. We don't care about any of that stuff. We want to know all the cool stuff about Shon. Tell us background and then let's get into the bullshit.

Joel: To me, to me Shon is sort of a reclusive CEO.

Chad: Because we don't know, yeah.

Joel: He doesn't tweet, he doesn't Instagram.

Chad: He's stealthy.

Joel: He's not snapping.

Shon: I do have a Twitter account.

Chad: You have a Twitter account?

Shon: Yeah, it's actually.

Joel: And nobody follows it, so nobody knows.

Shon: It's @Shon.

Joel: It's @Shon? Oh nice, I'm going to follow. Anybody, who follows him? No one.

Shon: Who has a four letter Twitter account, raise your hand? Nobody.

Joel: That's good.

Shon: That's right, this guy. Okay. They never do.

Joel: For me, the genesis of the company, you're not a recruiting guy. I know this is going a way back but for my benefit, I'd love to know how the company started and why? You're an idea guy, which I got from dinner. Why was it this idea that sparked you to action, to found the company?

Shon: So I am a recruiting guy.

Joel: Oh yeah?

Shon: Yeah, I mean I did a brief tour in recruiting. That's how we started the company. I was an engineer that got talked into starting a recruiting company. We talked about this on the fireside chat.

Chad: He wasn't here.

Joel: I wasn't here.

Shon: Oh.

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: See.

Shon: That's what I said.

Joel: And our listeners weren't there either.

Shon: Sorry, sorry everybody.

Joel: There's no toilet in here today.

Shon: Yes, so yeah. I was an engineer and I actually hated recruiters at first and then grew to love them because I learned that, I got hired at KPMG and a recruiter enlightened me that I could make more money. They're like, "You're asking for way too little money." That recruiter got me something like a $30,000 a year raise, at the tender age of 25. I loved recruiters after that. Then I went on to start my own consulting firm. The economy took a shit.

Joel: What's the timetable on this for you?

Shon: This is 2000, this is the economy took a shit in 2008. I'm selling like high end consulting services. One guy, we talked yesterday, one guy we had out at Google for $2400 an hour and he was just billing. We had a little bit of margin in that guy.

Joel: Yeah.

Shon: Then 2008 hit, my segue into recruiting was, we were working with Google, Apple and a couple other big companies on scalability stuff. End of 2008 hit and we just got called, one after the other, send them home. Your $2400 guy, get him out of here. Then a couple of them starting saying, we'll hire your people because we had-

Chad: How did that feel though because that had to be a moment?

Shon: Yeah.

Chad: I mean that had to be, that kind of had to be the moment, right?

Shon: Oh it was yeah, so this was in downtown, we had the little office in downtown San Francisco. At that same time, we had seen a PowerPoint from Sequoia, a venture capital firm. That was like, the party's over. That was the headline. It was that and then a bunch of, it felt like shit. Yeah, it felt like, well I guess we got to figure out something else to do.

Joel: So this shit's actually happening, yeah.

Shon: This shit's happening.

Joel: Yeah.

Shon: And like all good consulting firms, we were basically a recruiting firm in disguise.

Joel: Yeah.