Recruiting Disaster or Draft Slide?

It’s Chad & Cheese birthday week, baby! That’s right—two birthdays, one week, and after 8 years and almost 1,500 episodes, we’re treating ourselves… poolside for Cheese, beachside for me. Margaritas were definitely harmed in the making of this celebration.

But before we vanish into vacation mode, we’ve got a little gift for you. A fresh episode of Talent Chasing—where Moneyball meets Office Space. What’s that mean? Not even Jasper knows. You’ll just have to listen and find out.

This one’s a doozy: Brian Johnson, Jasper Spanjaart, and Chad (Yea The Chad) dig into Shedeur Sanders, NFL talent, fifth-round pick. Yeah, we said fifth. The guy had the stats, the swagger, and still got passed up more than a junior dev with a philosophy degree. Why? Race? Dad’s fame? NFL execs allergic to personality? We dig into all of it.

So unwrap your birthday bonus, hit play, and embrace the chaos.It’s our party, and we’ll snark if we want to. More at talentchasing.com

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Jasper (00:24.995)

Hello and welcome to another episode of Talent Chasing. My name is Jasper Spangard. I'm a filmmaker and journalist joined by former military drill sergeant Chad Big Drill Sowash and Brian aka Frank Johnson who scouted two World Series winning San Francisco Giants teams and played for a whole bunch of three, sorry three, God's sake Brian, is two not enough. I was also about to mention that you played for a whole bunch of MLB teams, but then again, it sort of pictures you as a journeyman.

Brian (00:41.654)

Three.

Jasper:

Three Brian, isn't two enough?

Chad (00:48.716)

Never.

Jasper (00:53.699)

which again is true. But hello, you beautiful, young, bold American souls. I'm happy to be in a recording space with both of you once more. How are things, guys?

Chad (01:05.857)

All good here, man. I am back in Portugal, baby. I mean, that urge has back, can't be happier. All the sun, all the beach, all the water, all the beer, can't beat it. But you just got back from Japan. Talk a little bit about that. That's one hell of fricking flight, man, or series of flights.

Jasper (01:09.615)

Euro Chad.

Jasper (01:22.991)

A series of flights. So it was from the Netherlands to Indonesia where we had a wedding, a friend's wedding, which was beautiful. Then we flew to Japan after that via China. So I saw pretty much all of Asia in one trip, I feel like. But I spent the week in Tokyo watching baseball, eating far too much sashimi and sushi.

Chad (01:34.16)

wow.

Chad (01:50.187)

No such thing.

Brian (01:50.656)

No such thing.

Jasper (01:50.703)

Just, just no, there's no such thing. And beautiful beer too. The Japanese do beer quite excellently for my mate. Um, no, and it was, it was just completely captivating that the Tokyo is, is batshit crazy. It's, sort of the craziest city you can ever imagine. It's literally 15 cities sort of bolted into one. Um, fascinating. If you ever get the chance to get out of there, you absolutely must. I've got a whole range of tips and things you need to do. And whilst you're there, um, avoid the Shibuya crossing, but go to some far less known museums.

much better way to spend your time there. but I remember vividly cause the, the, the day I flew out was the day of the NFL draft. So it was my first ever experience. well, following the NFL draft, literally from afar, 35,000 feet up in the air, somewhere above the South China sea. and I love the draft. I always make a note of staying up at least for the first and second round.

those days. But it was weird because I had to follow it just shitty Wi Fi on the plane, trying to get updates from you guys and from Twitter that wouldn't load. So yeah, it was was it was interesting.

Brian (03:02.464)

It was interesting. And we talked about it last show when you were, you know, out and about doing your Asian Jasper trip. But the pre-draft conversation about Shadoor Sanders was fascinating. Amazingly, the post-draft story of Shadoor Sanders is even more interesting. And what's fascinating for me, and we've talked about this before,

Chad (03:20.781)

Mmm.

Brian (03:29.558)

There's about eight different storylines or eight different opinions you can have on the should do or Sanders situation and you would be accurate. That's what makes it intriguing is that there's a lot of things that play here that you got talent on the field, okay, which you would think could be primo, but it's part of the mix. You got personality of the player, you got interviews that were done. The Giants say one thing, other teams say another. You have

Chad (03:46.455)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (03:57.644)

You don't have 32 teams needing quarterback, you have like four or five. And then so that comes into play. So it's a shrink shrink market. So it's not a normal market there. For quarterback, you have the helicopter parent. We have the the you know, whatever round you think he deserves. You have in evaluating his talent, you have, oh, he doesn't throw on time. Oh, he's he's

doing this, doing that. The bottom line is he carried a program from nothing to national relevance NFL teams to where they're facing huge TV audiences every week. And then some would say, well, it's because of that. People don't, know, there was a report. I don't know how true it is. Doesn't sound true, but whatever. One of the other ports was that Brian Dable was concerned that Dion Sanders would be in line for his job if things didn't go well or whatever it may be. So.

Chad (04:26.839)

Mm-hmm.

Jasper (04:30.175)

Exactly.

Chad (04:37.783)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (04:52.8)

Fascinating, fascinating. All these lines could be accurate. What's that?

Chad (04:55.031)

Deon's the last guy he's got to worry about for God's sake. He should just worry about himself. He should just worry about himself because Brian, Brian Dable, to be quite frank, I don't know how in the hell he's still in that position. But anyway, anyway.

Brian (05:01.237)

Yes.

Jasper (05:07.353)

But before, because what I want to, what I was about to mention is we talked about Shadur Sanders at length before, you know, I jetted off to Asia and I was just dumbfounded by his freefall. Because he doesn't go in the first round. So for those, you know, non NFL fans out there, first round, 32 teams. So each team gets to take their player, their favorite player of the draft, essentially. I was 100 % expecting, you know, Shadur Sanders to go in the first round.

Just based on talent is based on what he did at Colorado, based on what he did at Jackson before that, the type of character he is, know, we've talked at, know, Brian's talk at Nauseam about, you know, quarterbacks and, know, what makes a good quarterback the fact that you need to be a bit, a little bit confident and we'll, we'll delve into that later. Um, but you know, this is a quarterback who completed 70 % of his passes in college, like 134 touchdowns, like 227 interceptions.

Chad (06:01.517)

with not a great O line.

Brian (06:03.51)

Zero all-in.

Chad (06:04.969)

Yeah.

Jasper (06:04.975)

But fill me in guys, because I wasn't there. What happened? Just then what was it like following this sort of process? Cause this is the biggest freefall of talent that I think I've ever seen. And it's the worst part of it is, I don't think people understand this fully. If you're not an NFL fan, it's there for everyone to see. Everyone gets to enjoy. And this is Schadenfreude at its global, at a global stage guys. Like this is, this guy's freefall was depicted to the entire world.

Chad (06:20.941)

Mm-hmm.

Jasper (06:35.011)

But what was it like following the draft from your guys' perspective? Because I wasn't able to watch. I was just reading tweets and messaging you guys. But tell me, what was it like?

Chad (06:45.205)

I for me it was it was as much of his slide as seeing the teams take other quarterbacks and who they took before that. mean Tyler show I mean he's he's older. I totally get that they want a little bit more mature guy but I mean to me he just didn't seem like he should have gone even close to that that high even Jackson Dart for goodness sakes. Then you got Jalen.

Milro, Dylan Gabriel. Dylan Gabriel was taken by Cleveland before they took Shador Sanders. And it's like, how in the hell? Don't get me wrong. Big 10 quarterback, played at Oregon. Great team. They've got an NFL kind of like pro set offense. Totally get that, right? Totally get that. But he does not have the physical attributes. He does not.

Jasper (07:31.385)

Yep. yeah.

Chad (07:42.829)

have the physical attributes that should or Sanders does. So to be able to watch this for me, and again, as we were talking about it coming out of it, it was like, how can they not take this guy in the first round? Of course they will. Yes, he had some interview hiccups. Maybe he didn't want to go to those teams. Who in the hell ever wants to go to the Giants, especially right now? But at the end of the day, a lot of these things that Brian was talking about have actually come out and have made me think a little bit deeper about

You take a look at personality and how that actually goes to marketing, right? And the Cleveland Browns are getting one hell of a personality marketing bump from a fifth round draft pick. That's from their fifth round draft pick, not from their quarterback that they took earlier, right? Number one. And then the second biggest one for me is that it's blending that personality and then the helicopter parent. Deon.

was doing interviews and they're saying, well, you know, what if, what if should do where he picks a team that you don't want him to? And he's like, excuse me, pretty much he's controlling everything. And I totally get it. Dion is a, an, for all intents and purposes, he is an expert in the space compared to many other people, right? He's gone through the draft. He's gone through, he's been an NFL, an NFL player. He's been on both sides. He's been a coach, right?

He's been a commentator. He's done all of these things. So therefore he really feels and he brings the chops of being an expert, but it's also the ability to have hubris and that's something that Dion's never had. So you've got one of those things where it's like, that can my team not only take on a Shador Sanders who also is going to have that kind of personality, perspective Lee and also hubris, but to

Are we gonna have Dion in the fucking locker room too? So those are two big things for me, especially after the fallout. Just wow, just big, big wow.

Brian (09:51.05)

Yeah, completely fair. think Dion has not gotten the criticism that he deserves post draft. We talked a little bit about in our project because I don't think we realize how possibly this could play out. And now that it's played out, I think you're exactly right. For any of us that have coached at the high school level or the middle school level and realize that parents are heavily involved, here you have, just like you described, Chad, a parent who you're right.

Chad (09:57.591)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:21.1)

As far as his knowledge base is concerned, it's all on one level. He's dominated since he was a long time. And he dominated the draft, he dominated after the draft, he dominated everything in football. And so as a coach, now all of a sudden he's done really well as a coach in two different spots. So he deserves that acclaim. But sometimes a criticism of former athletes, former professional athletes, is that when you get back into the real world, it's hard to have that humility.

Like in coaching, you don't remember when you stunk as an eight-year-old and you struck out four times, right? You don't remember when the 12-year-old, you had a hard time finding your release point when you're pitching. You know, when you guys shellacked one game or whatever, maybe, or he threw a bunch of interceptions. You'd forget those times. And so as a star, that's why many star players don't turn into good coaches because you have to have the humility because you need to coach in different ways for different people. The star...

Chad (10:52.813)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (11:20.62)

Probably needs a little more cerebral approach, keeping their confidence up, boom, boom, boom. The player who lacks the star skills, they need to make sure that they are fundamentally sound and thinking about A, B, and C that's different from the star. So that's why catchers are such good managers in baseball. That's why Dan Campbell with the Lions, he was a bench player for the most part. He got hurt a bunch of times in his career. A great way to be able to understand each person on your roster.

Chad (11:43.597)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (11:49.622)

Dion didn't have that and therefore he made big, big mistakes as a parent slash coach slash Dion and Shiloh's agent that he oversold his product, not because they're not any good, but because he did engage the market well.

Chad (11:58.807)

Mm-hmm.

Jasper (11:58.895)

Yeah.

Jasper (12:07.619)

But do we feel like, mean, this level of scrutiny though, I feel like it's unparalleled. I've never seen, you know, a young kid in, in, know, both Shiloh Sanders and Shaddur Sanders, both of his sons who have been scrutinized just to a point where I go, sure, but they can't help that that's their dad. Like, and they've looked up to this guy their entire lives and to give them some credit, you know, they've flourished under him, you know, they have flourished at their own level. But at what point do we...

does perception of that family take overtake, you know, just performance in the way we assess talent because, know, it's, it's a dramatic slide. Sure. I didn't anticipate it. Like, okay, he's not going in the first round. Surely he's going to go in the second. Okay. Surely he's going to go into third. No, he wasn't taken until the fifth round by a team that as Chad just said, already took a quarterback early in the drought. I don't think I've ever seen that before either. Like taking two quarterbacks in the first five rounds, but beyond that it's, it's.

Chad (13:00.045)

Mm.

Jasper (13:05.263)

It feels unfair. It feels unfair. It feels like these kids, if they had a different back name, different last name, they would have been drafted in the first round. I think that applies honestly to both of his kids.

Chad (13:17.677)

I think so trying to make a correlation to kind of like the corporate world. remember working with tons of Fortune 500 companies and they would do college recruiting. So they would go on campus, these big campuses. And this is the first time I ever heard the term helicopter parent. And I was like, what the hell is that? Well, with these kids and their young adults, right? Their parents would show up to interviews with

their parents would actually start the negotiation for their pay and their salary. Now, now, now, these parents have a hell of a lot more experience in all of those areas. Interview, salary negotiation, all those types of things. And there's all these reasons why, obviously, companies don't want to see that happening. They don't want to the parent in the office, right? They don't want to get notes from the parent. They don't want to get calls from the parent, right? This is, you're an adult now, you got to take this thing over.

So you see this translate and I've seen many times and heard many times companies say amazing candidate, what they did in the classroom, what they could articulate in the interview, but we just can't have the perspective distraction of a parent feeling like they're sitting down beside them in the office. Right. And so you'll see this on the corporate side too. And that's where, you know, the first time I heard helicopter parent.

So I can see this, especially when you're talking about Dion. We were talking about Dion, this guy's not just metaphorically sitting there. He's literally sitting there and he has access to every fucking TV channel, any broadcaster that he wants whenever he wants. And he can bring down a head coach, which, you we talking about Brian Dable earlier. He's going to bring himself down. But can you imagine if Shador did not get playing time?

like he wanted, how, perspective-ly, Dion could come down on that entire organization.

Brian (15:20.768)

Yeah, or if Shadour goes to the Giants, he plays great. The team loses anyway. Dion's going to be talked about for months and months and months. But for me, would go to, let's talk about the other pieces as well, because the helicopter parents are great point. But I think also you have to come into play is race, right? The profile of a black quarterback, number one, right? We didn't have black quarterbacks for

Chad (15:25.805)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (15:48.992)

forever until recently, relatively recently. So is that the perception of of glitz and glamour, the perception of arrogance from a black quarterback? Right. So in the United States, we have a racial history here. And regardless of whether some people want to feel like some things have to do with race and some things don't take that argument out. Race involves everything. It touches everything. It may not be the only thing involved. And I think that's a lot of times perception gets wrong.

is that just because race involved doesn't mean nothing else counts. Doesn't mean nothing else influenced it. That's why again, Shadoor's situation is so interesting because all these things come into play. when we had Ryan Leaf come to draft, number one pick, Peyton Manning, arrogance all over the place with both those guys in different ways. There was never a talk of making an example of, there's never a talk of a slide. And sure enough, unfortunately, Ryan Leaf had some other issues that came up to bed, Johnny Manziel. Now, the only time we've seen this happen with a

I don't wanna say the only time, but we saw this slide happen with Aaron Rodgers, a white quarterback. But Aaron Rodgers wasn't the, we can't look at his pro career and look back in college and say, well, he came out as the number one prospect and came out as the guy, as the man. Same with Tom Brady. Tom Brady didn't play a whole lot in Michigan. He shared time in Michigan, so he wasn't Tom Brady at the time of the draft. So even though he slid further than Shadour, it's not the same situation as Shadour.

Jasper (17:15.083)

I wanna, yeah. Are you making it?

Chad (17:15.454)

No, no.

Brian (17:16.202)

Nor is Aaron Rodgers same situation. So we've never seen a white quarterback being made an example of, right? If we can say that, because I think that's pretty obvious that he was made an example of, regardless of what reason it was that we agree or disagree on. He was made an example of and it's gonna be fascinating to see him go forward. And it is a good, slate for him to be able to really show what he can do and plenty of who cares what team is from his talent is gonna overcome because

Chad (17:26.114)

Yes.

Brian (17:46.688)

What thing you can't get away from, which Damien Woody in the video you sent to us Jasper, you can't get away from talent. If you're a talented quarterback, you're gonna get an opportunity.

Chad (17:55.444)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (18:03.725)

Look, Joel popped in. Yeah, we've got a podcast in 15 minutes.

Joel Cheesman (18:04.113)

Not bad.

Brian (18:08.062)

nice.

Jasper (18:08.623)

No, but I think you're, I think you're making a fantastic point, Brian. And just to pivot back on some of the names that you just mentioned, because I did get some Aaron Rodgers vibes. Like there was some Aaron Rodgers, you know, when he was initially in the draft process, there was that whole ordeal of, okay, is this guy too confident? Is he too cocky? Same sort of thing, right? Johnny Manziel, same sort of thing. But we mustn't forget both of them, Rodgers, Manziel were first round picks.

They were first round NFL draft picks. Shadr San is a fifth round draft pick. That means four times in a row, every team that possible passed on this guy, four times. And I feel like this, again, it's just, it's incomprehensible to me. Sure, you've got the name affiliation and you've, but you must be, as a team, you must be so insecure about your own livelihood to not pick this guy in the first four rounds. Like if you're honestly, if you let the fear of,

Chad (18:40.727)

Yes.

Jasper (19:07.801)

Deon Sanders might come in, his dad might come in and he might take over my job, blah, blah, blah. You must be horribly insecure in your own job because if you're not confident enough to pick that guy in the first four rounds, in the first three rounds or the first two rounds, what are we doing? Honestly, what are we doing?

Chad (19:24.745)

What the hell were the Browns thinking though? They took a quarterback first and then they traded up to get Shador. What the?

Jasper (19:28.557)

Yeah, that's I don't get either. Yeah. I don't get it. I honestly, I don't get it. Yeah, no going.

Brian (19:34.422)

Well, I think, I'm sorry, were you finished Jasper? ahead. So I think going on your point Jasper of the organizations, I'm not a big conspiracy theorist, but I think if you look at the four or five teams that really need the quarterbacks or Pittsburgh and Cleveland, let's just focus on those two. I think this was something that was sent down from above because just look at the mannerisms of Andrew Berry in his press conference and look at the head coach sit next to him in the press conference.

Everybody's bending over backwards to make it seem like, know, Shadour's, you know, the one thing Andrew Barry say was he was oversold, right? So they're doing everything they can to make it seem like, this wasn't done on purpose. This wasn't done on purpose. And it's fascinating, you know, the comments out of the New York Giants, the zero comments from the Pittsburgh Steelers who needed a quarterback even more than Cleveland. How on earth does Cleveland does

The Pittsburgh Steelers not draft a quarterback in this draft. It's ridiculous. And with a guy like Charlotte and with Tom, with Tomlin there as their head coach, I mean, that speaks to me again. Your boss told you not to do it. doesn't matter if you agree with him. You have to do what your boss tells you. And so you just stay out of the limelight because you can't change what your boss is saying. The bosses of those two organizations told them.

Jasper (20:38.543)

It's.

Brian (20:59.764)

You cannot take this guy for whatever reason you want to point out. It's hugely got to be racial, number one. And I hate to say that, but it's got to be part of it. The social media following has got to be a huge part of it. And the and there I'm sure they're reading the same reports we all did. He doesn't throw on time. You know, they're they're worried about the Johnny Manziel coming up. They're worried about a Ryan Leap. So they don't want to make a mistake. I get that part. But it's just when you look at the tape, no one's playing the game like he's playing.

Jasper (21:03.161)

Yeah.

Jasper (21:08.526)

I swear.

Brian (21:28.556)

except for Cam Ward with Miami. He was great. And I hate the argument that says, well, doesn't run, Sanders doesn't run like Cam Ward. Who cares? Dan Marito didn't run well, right? A lot of guys don't run well. Who can operate in the quarterback position? Cerebrally, Shadour is right there with Cam Ward. And maybe better, it's hard to read that kind of stuff. But cerebrally, the mental stuff, Shadour is in a class by himself. I think that's gonna show up.

Jasper (21:43.929)

Yeah, but-

Jasper (21:51.318)

You- you- you-

Jasper (21:58.691)

No, easily. again, you've alluded to the fact that, okay, only five or six teams needed a quarterback. But honestly, when does the draft ever become about need? I get that when you need a quarterback, you draft quarterback. But there's teams like the New York Jets, my New York Jets. Okay, great. You sign a guy in free agency. Great. know, Justin Fields, good, decent quarterback. Hasn't been a starter for two years, but he's good. Good enough.

Really? You're not going to take a flyer on Shaduo Sanders in the second or the third or the fourth round. Really? Like honestly, it's just, I, again, I can't speak to the level of surprise I felt because it's, it feels wrong. It just feels wrong. And, and, and you're, think you're absolutely spot on in the fact that the race has to be an issue with this. And yeah, Dion Sanders is a personality of its own. We've, well documented that even on our podcast, you know, the type of character he is, but at same time.

I didn't expect that type of backlash to happen based on the character he's got. Like sure, because next year we'll see Archie Manning probably in the draft, right? He's going to be the first round, first round, I think he's going to be a shoe in lock in for the first overall pick.

Chad (23:03.638)

Aren't ya?

Chad (23:08.235)

He might, I mean, his uncle played for four years. You never know with the Mannings because the maturity level those guys have, not to mention the NIL money that they're gonna be pulling, he might stay longer. He might.

Jasper (23:15.36)

No.

Jasper (23:21.647)

could be if he's not secured of a first round draft slot, sure, but that's why it's just all the war- and then again, no?

Chad (23:28.267)

I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case with the Mannings. The Mannings are smart. They understand that he's got to be ready for the NFL. He can come out early because he's going to go in the first round. That does not mean that he's ready for the NFL. And if anybody knows, talk a little bit about that, Brian. I think that's one of the things that the Mannings, from my standpoint, I look to see what they do because they know fucking football. If any family knows football, that family knows football.

Jasper (23:34.999)

Hmm. Yeah, but who's to say?

Chad (23:55.917)

I think that he will come out when they think he's ready. now here's also a twist to this, Brian. You got the whole Manning family, right? Who are also big out in the marketing space. mean, you've got a couple of uncles who have won Super Bowls, right? And you got this quarterback who has this big marketing opportunity. He had the same thing with Deion Sanders. But you're afraid of Deion Sanders, right?

Jasper (24:08.172)

Exactly.

Jasper (24:24.994)

Exactly.

Chad (24:25.165)

So I think back to back to your point, you know, is is this a race thing? I there's got to be some implications to that

Brian (24:34.944)

Yeah, without a doubt. think that's a great example that proves that point. Again, it's just different. It's just different when a Black person is involved. And regardless of what it exactly was, it's going to be hard for us to decipher. But race always plays a part. We're in the United States. Our racial history has been denied. It's been trying to get rid of it from our schools, trying to act like it didn't happen. And therefore,

That means that it continues to linger and linger and linger and we don't acknowledge it. Just like in a relationship with your wife. You have a fight, right? And you have a fight. You did something wrong, but you'll never admit it and you'll never bring it up and never... Tell me right now if that relationship is going to last forever. Probably not. And if you do it once, it means you're going to do it a couple of times. So that's going to be hard to maintain. Same thing that's happened in the United States with our culture. It's always there. White folks deny it ever happens.

And they're they accused black folks of always playing the race car. It's just anyway, it's just an issue that's there again, like we talked about. It doesn't mean it's the only issue that's there. It's an issue that's there. But with the Manning family, it's fascinating because look at Arch Manning. He didn't play last year. And so that's a little close to two years when his kids going to not be able to play a game to your point, Chad, in that if I'm if I'm Peyton Manning, if I'm Eli Manning, if I'm Archie Manning senior, I'm thinking

Chad (25:59.757)

Cooper.

Brian (26:03.388)

Nowadays, you got to be ready when you get there, especially if he's going to be the number one overall pick. You got to have experience to play this game, especially all these guys who have played five and six years because of COVID, an extra year of COVID eligibility. These guys are coming in seasoned and ready to play. If he's only getting one year of actual D1 competition, he may not be ready.

Chad (26:24.619)

Yeah, well, you take a look at you take a look at Richardson at Indianapolis. He did not have enough. He should not have come out. Period. Period. But

Brian (26:28.214)

great call.

That's right. That's right. but he can run. He can outrun everybody. He can throw the ball a million miles. That doesn't matter at the quarterback position. You have

Chad (26:40.077)

He's just not short and mid. He has no short and mid game. Everything is long or he is running.

Brian (26:43.98)

Here we go.

You gotta be able to make the layup. can't slam dunk on everybody every play, right?

Chad (26:50.369)

Yeah, you want me to play that Jasper? Okay.

Jasper (26:51.491)

Why don't... Go for it, yeah.

Brian (27:06.602)

thought Joe was going to be our special guest.

Chad (27:41.389)

Jesus. Ads. Trisha, you're gonna have to cut that first part and get ready. Here we go.

Jasper (27:46.735)

for Trisha.

Jasper (29:45.507)

Yeah. Yeah. Beyond the fact that, Go ahead. No, no, Brian, go ahead.

Chad (29:45.867)

You're just not him.

Brian (29:48.064)

So I have a problem with this, but go ahead.

Chad (29:52.108)

Hit it.

Brian (29:52.47)

So I like his one point of that, that, you know, they're in the talent acquisition business. Yep, I get that. But again, not every team needs us. So we're not talking 32 teams, we're talking three or four that really need to have quarterback talent. And we just saw them not in the talent acquisition business. And as far as how you evaluate it, he's saying that, I just disagree that because this, well,

Chad (30:00.459)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (30:21.868)

pull back a little bit. What I do agree with him, I think is the social media presence. And this is what we talked about with Tim Tebow. I think that was his strongest point, because I think with the Tim Tebow situation, we know that the social media piece they don't want because of all that. then you combine that with Deion Sanders. And that, I think, was the stew that they were trying to avoid. What's happened? And again, I think we talked about with your fifth round pick, as you mentioned, Chad.

Chad (30:26.539)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian (30:50.42)

I've never seen this much exposure and this much of the Cleveland Browns being a focal point from a fifth round draft pick. It wasn't Myles Garrett, your number one defensive end who just who's the highest paid guy in the NFL. It wasn't Joe Flacco who had a great season two years ago that saved the franchise and took them to the playoffs when your main guy got hurt. It wasn't the owners. It wasn't the GM. It was your fifth round traffic, not your third round draft pick, Dylan Gabriel, who's a solid player.

It was your fifth round pick. And that is, I think, something that Cleveland's gonna benefit from that they didn't anticipate.

Jasper (31:28.917)

I mean, it's, makes, makes for an interesting sort of conundrum, doesn't it? I mean, you just alluded to Tim Tebow and I think he was very much one of the first players in the NFL to really undergo a level of scrutiny that no one else went through because he was, he was a talented guy, just a talented quarterback, first round draft for the Denver Broncos was traded to the New York Jets where he didn't get to play quarterback at all. Still don't know why, because they needed good quarterback play at that time. And it's just.

The whole circus around them, that was always the same, right? The way they sort of phrased it, the media phrase was the circus around Teebo. Teams don't want the circus around Teebo. Well, guess what? The NFL is a circus already. It's a circus already. Like no matter whether you sign Tim Teebo or not, it's going to be a circus no matter what. Journalists are going to be there. They're going to ask different questions, going to ask stupid questions, going to ask right questions. It's always going to happen.

Chad (32:08.513)

Yes. Yes, it is.

Jasper (32:21.647)

But to me, it's it's just staggering to see this happen over and over again with, you know, you need a talented quarterback. You like, there is absolutely no one that can tell me he's not a talent quarterback. Shadrassana is a talented quarterback. 32 teams should have been in line for him, waiting and hoping and wishing that they could be the one drafting him. Instead, they all said, no, not our guy. Cause we don't want the circus around him. And that to me is just, it's staggering that

It's, it doesn't feel like it's about talent acquisition anymore. It doesn't feel like it's about talent anymore. It just feels like we're so incredibly concerned with what the media perspective will be that that will be the one thing that will shy away from any type of talent decision-making because based on talent, he should have been a first-round pick. based on all everything around it and the whole sort of worrisome like, okay. What are they going to write about us? What are they going to say about us?

leads them astray and leads them to different decisions. And that is, it's so weird. It's honestly, it it feels, it feels like the NFL is not ready for this. Like college football has made leaps and bounds and you know, with, with NIL coming in and the way, you know, plays are now being paid and, know, getting, you know, sponsorship deals and marketing deals. It's weird that the NCAA has sort of overtaken the NFL when it comes to that.

And I do know, I know that, that, you know, NIL is, is, is still, you know, up for discussion, whether it benefits the integrity of the sport, but at the same time, it feels like they are the ones embracing personalities and the NFL just wants boring, basic people to do the job that it's task at hand and well, don't try to do much else.

Chad (34:09.751)

Well, and I think the hardest part about this whole thing is we talked about this on one of our one of our baseball shows where we're talking about the personalities out of baseball. The personality is in football, and that's exactly what's selling the game. It's what it's what makes it the most. It's the most profitable sport in the world. Period. It's the number one grossing sport in the world. The National Fucking Football League. Right. Take a look at that. You take a look at the Dallas Cowboys.

makes more than the than the English Premier League does. Just the Dallas Cowboys, right? So then you talk about, well, we don't want the circus. Yes, you do. That was an excuse. That was an excuse to say no to this circus. But you're looking for another circus because you want to sell jerseys because you do want the limelight on you, right? Especially, especially, hopefully on your way to winning. So then you take a look at. A kid who is in two.

Jasper (34:57.303)

Exactly.

Chad (35:10.093)

two teams, Jackson State and then obviously Colorado did an amazing job. And like you'd said, Brian, zero offensive line. He had to make plays happen. He had to make plays happen. It was funny because Cam Ward was giving Shidora a hard time saying, well, if I threw bubble screens all day, I could do that too. I could have that high percentage rating too. It's like, shut the fuck up, Cam. You had an offensive line. OK?

Brian (35:28.349)

you

Chad (35:37.129)

It might not have been a great, but you had an offensive line should do or did not have one. So I just see so many, so many cards in this house of cards that are just tumbling from all this bullshit excuse from these different teams. think a lot of it. And again, not, not trying to be mean to Dion, but I think a lot of it is that they are afraid of Dion. They're afraid of.

Brian (36:02.124)

I agree. I think both your points are correct. think I want to circle back to the race card again, because again, for me, as a studier of race for the last 50 years, being in a multi-ethnic environment, Oakland, California, being in a multi-ethnic environment, and again, a predominantly Black city in Detroit, Michigan, my whole life.

Being sensitive and aware of racial issues when I started, like I was like eight years old when I first, the light went on, I saw the world through a different lens. I think race is a fascinating conversation. And I think as we talk about this, Jasper brought up the great point of Tim Tebow, right? But we often forget to bring in Colin Kaepernick.

Chad (36:36.493)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (36:53.068)

Collin, if you look at examples, two examples of players being excommunicated and removed and blacklisted from the NFL, those two guys hit it spot on. Tim Tebow, because of social media following and because his arm isn't that strong. But you could say the Baltimore Ravens won a Super Bowl with a quarterback that didn't have an arm that was that strong either, but whatever.

Chad (36:53.292)

Yes.

Chad (37:10.24)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (37:17.943)

That hell of a defense.

Brian (37:18.902)

But that would like the like the should do our Sanders doesn't throw on time. That was the that was the thing that was done with Tim Teebo is that he didn't throw even though they want to play off game with them. He was communicated from the NFL just like Colin Kaepernick. So it's fascinating to see the two situations Teebo is because of social media following Colin Kaepernick situation just because he was black and because he was challenging the system and peacefully quietly took a stinking knee.

Jasper (37:48.131)

you

Brian (37:48.372)

And so it's.

Chad (37:48.929)

And he was, and and he was actually advised to take a knee by a green beret who I trained in Fort Benning, Georgia, by the way. yes, but. got to bring it back to me guys. Got to bring it back to me. But again, I agree a hundred percent races of discussion. need to have more of, right? Not just in sports, but outside of sports. but because it's so uncomfortable, it is, it's uncomfortable.

Brian (37:51.422)

Exactly right. Exactly right.

Really?

Jasper (37:57.931)

weighted name drop, weighted name drop. Fantastic job. Yeah.

Brian (38:00.448)

Love that. It is all about you.

Brian (38:16.716)

Yeah, it is.

Jasper (38:18.337)

It's... yeah.

Chad (38:18.827)

We need to have those uncomfortable discussions and we need to have them just to make ourselves better. It's not throwing mud, right? It's to be able to ensure that the humans that we work beside, left and right, that they are getting a fair shot at shit. And that's not a bad thing.

Brian (38:34.026)

and that you're factoring in all the pieces into play. Like we're doing this conversation. We're throwing out a whole bunch of different threads to this that are all compatible. Race is often thrown out because it takes all the oxygen in the room when it comes up because white folks, quite honestly, have a hard time talking about it. Black folks don't have a hard time talking about it. Latino folks don't have a hard time talking about it. Asian folks don't have a hard time talking about it. It's white folks have a hard time talking about it.

Chad (38:42.541)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (39:00.308)

And that's what sucks up the energy in the room or the atmosphere in the room is because we, me, my people, we get defensive and feel like, no, if I admit the racism was a part of our history, then it means I didn't earn anything that I've ever done. That's not true. That's overthinking it. That's not true. And that has nothing to do with the conversation. Anyway, so I'm glad we're able to have the conversation here and really factor in all the pieces of Shadoor Sanders' story because it's fascinating.

Chad (39:07.757)

Mm.

Jasper (39:31.203)

Now I think one final point I do want to make, and I know we've done an extensive episode on Dion Sanders himself. So, I mean, people should very much just go back and listen to that because we're going to probably duplicate what we've already said. But I wonder just with Dion Sanders, whether his, the way he acts, the way he talks, the way it like, it's almost as if people just perceive that as him being arrogant and brash. I just see a confident guy.

Honestly, for me, honestly, it just boils down to confidence and a faith, you know, in something higher than him and of sort of faith in himself. But why do we see that as a danger as society?

Brian (40:15.692)

He doesn't cuss, he doesn't put anybody down, he defends his players, he promotes his players, he's building young men.

Jasper (40:20.173)

Nope. Only talks people up. Yeah. Why it's, it's, it's almost as if we're not ready for a powerful black man of that stature. It almost feels that way.

Chad (40:24.171)

He's a powerful black man.

Brian (40:30.908)

I think you're right. And what we don't hear about at all when we talk about Deion Sanders is they were the number one team, the only team in history to have a football team in total with a great point average over 3.0. And I posted that on social media. People responded back to me like, that's a lie. Did you go to Snopes? Did you find out that's true? Is that a lie? And I had to throw a video on there. The academic advisor, a white woman, was there to justify it or verify it, right?

Chad (40:38.861)

Mm.

Chad (40:44.094)

yeah.

Chad (40:58.082)

Yeah?

Brian (41:00.204)

as far as visually, and I got no comments after that. They said it was untrue, but the academic. So this program, not only on the field, was garbage before he got there. And over time, he's built them into not only a team to be reckoned with on the field, but also academically. These young men are building a foundation for themselves under his stewardship. That is amazing.

Chad (41:12.596)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (41:25.835)

Yes. Well, Dion, one of the things that I love about Dion is his discipline, not just on the field, but off the field. And what he's doing is and one of the this is the biggest thing. He is a mentor. Right. Not just to his sons, but to everybody on that damn team. That's why Travis Hunter followed him. Right. He was able to to to show lead.

Jasper (41:34.898)

yeah.

Chad (41:55.019)

and show discipline, right? And then also enforce that discipline, especially when it came to grades, behavior, those types of things. He understands this is a business. You have to understand your personality, the marketing, developing yourself, but also outside of that, it's a much bigger thing. And much like you talk about, Brian, this is fantasy land. You've got to prep yourself for when you're out of fantasy land. And those grades are going to be the foundation of the deal.

of how you do that.

Brian (42:26.06)

That's right. And the athletic part is the easy part, right? That's what we enjoy as kids or as young athletes or young men. We enjoy that part, the hard part. It was hard part for me. The academic part, that wasn't fun. Going to class at eight o'clock in the morning wasn't fun. Studying for finals wasn't fun, right? But you had to do it. And I love to your point, Chad, that Dion has forced his team, used the power and the leverage he has as the head football coach and forced them to show up to class, be in the first row. We've all seen the videos.

Chad (42:33.879)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (42:48.247)

Mm-hmm.

Brian (42:54.838)

You got to be in the first row. You got to be on time. You got to be all these things. And here they have produced and we don't hear anything about it, which is, which is too bad.

Chad (43:05.751)

Great.

Jasper (43:06.287)

It feels like a slap in the face of all of that. Yeah.

Chad (43:10.135)

Yeah, well sliding, but the beautiful part and we'll end on this is we have a Chador Sanders who we know is incredibly talented that got knocked down to the fifth round and that's going to put a chip on his shoulder that you hope the Browns thought they could actually use. Who knows? We'll see.

Jasper (43:24.717)

He got humiliated, yeah.

Jasper (43:29.325)

I hope so, yeah.

Brian (43:36.554)

And the humiliation, Jasper, was the point, right? That was the point. And I think what it's going to do is going to fuel that fire. It's going to be He'll be fine. He just signed a contract for four years for $4 million. He'll be fine. He got plenty of NIM money. His money's fine.

Jasper (43:39.535)

Exactly, that's the point. Yep.

Chad (43:39.671)

Yeah, well that was the point.

Jasper (43:50.188)

I think we'll be fine. No, I don't even worry about his money. I just I just really hope that guy.

Brian (43:54.7)

He's gonna be fine. It's gonna be a fun story to continue to watch.

Jasper (43:59.535)

I hope he just gets a shot somewhere, whether it's with the Brown somewhere else, I just want that guy to show the world what he does as a starting quarterback because he's gonna...

Brian (44:06.836)

And is it an interest? I think many of America or many of the world really he's following is amazing. People are tying into that. Because we all like underdogs, We all as human beings,

Jasper (44:17.46)

Yeah, and the NFL just made him an underdog.

Brian (44:20.118)

Exactly right. And the NFL made this a bigger story than it was gonna be before. And it's fascinating, again, to you guys' point, the NFL is already about chaos and all kinds of stories and villains and good guys. Shadour Sanders, when he goes off and takes his team to the playoffs, that's gonna be fun to watch.

Chad (44:20.407)

Yes.

Jasper (44:39.094)

Ooh, buddy.

Chad (44:41.575)

And we will be following kids. So every week come on back to a little talent chasing. We'll be back next week. And again, we will follow should or Sanders as well as all the other amazing talent, not just on the field, but in the corporate ranks as well as Chad. So wash jester Spaniards in our Frank. I mean Brian Johnson. We appreciate you coming subscribe like and come on back. Have a good one guys.

Jasper (45:10.478)

appreciate you, see you soon.