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CareerBuilder's Trail of Dead

Another week of breaking news highlights this week's show.

- C-suite ejections at CareerBuilder,

- readies for an IPO and a Monster partnership,

- Government muddies AI interviewing

- Rapid Fire w/ -- Google for jobs France, Love Mondays to Glass Door, Nymeria launches Reach & RecTxt launches

and last but never least

- Whining male managers

Enjoy and show Sovren, JobAdx and Canvas lots of love, because they make hearts skip beats.


Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and load of snarks. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: Oh yeah, suckers.

Joel: I'm ready to floss like a boss. Welcome to the Breaking News edition of the Chad and Cheese Podcast: HR's Most Dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm just happy that the Saint Louis Blues and Toronto Raptors fucking won.

Joel: My Canadian wife is very happy with the latter of those. On this week's show, more bleeding at CareerBuilder. Good lord. dropped some mad news on us, and government could derail this whole AI recruiting thing. If you can't listen with the one you love, just love the one you're with, baby. We'll be right back after a word from Sovren.

Chad: That's true.

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Sovren: Sovren. Software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner.

Joel: Nah.

Chad: So, let's make this clear, okay? I am not a St Louis blues fan, but what I am a fan of is seeing an organization that has never won a championship beat any fucking Boston organization, because those guys have so many championships as it is. Anybody from the Boston area that are still tearing up because they lost, fuck you guys. I mean, seriously. Look how many championships you guys won.

Chad: And then we take a look at the Toronto Raptors. Again, this is an underdog type of season, which makes me feel ... And I know Joel's going to bring this up, that his Browns possibly have a chance. And I'm going to say-

Joel: Why would you jinx some shit like that, dude? Don't bring that up.

Chad: Dude, there is no jinxing the Browns. Pretty much the Browns equal jinx. They're synonymous with jinx.

Joel: I'm just hoping for a not embarrassing season this year. I mean, the pressure is such that they're bound to totally implode and end up 0 and 16 or something. I'm not expecting the best, but I'm also probably expecting the worst.

Chad: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's go ahead and let's hit this shoutout, because we've got a shit ton of these.

Joel: Yeah, yeah. No tears for Boston, for sure. I'm so sick of Boston teams. All right, who I'm not sick of are the Rothbergs, Steven and Faith, two of our most loyal listeners. Apparently they listen to multiple shows on their deck as they're eating breakfast, lunch, dinner. In my opinion, the married couple that Chad and Cheeses together stays together. So feel the love, the Rothbergs set the example. I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy.

Chad: I have to say the same about companies. The companies that Chad and Cheese together stay together. And one company, KRT, who listens to the podcast, Mona, Olivia, and fanboy Chris. Wait a minute. No, his name's Ryan. Yeah, Ryan. I always forget his name. They sent me a Talk Nerdy To Me starter kit, and you know the whole reason for this thing is that Ryan loves trolling Joel over at Shaker.

Joel: Next up on shoutouts, Andy from Nexxt, who will be publishing that interview I think soon. We had some good lunch and drinks last week, and it was really fun to visit with him. Anyone from Jersey is always fun to hang out with for a little bit.

Chad: Yeah. For small amounts of time, Andy understands this. Short amounts of time. But no, great interview, should pop out ... It'll come out soon, but when you see the interview with Andy Katz, definitely check it out. Katz been in the industry for 25 fucking years. He knows some shit.

Joel: Yeah. We're talking 65 years total, between the three of us, of industry experience. It was good stuff. And the amount of money that he made on newspaper ads back in the day is really ridiculous.

Chad: Oh, God yeah.

Joel: For the youngsters out there, it's a great history lesson for the way things used to be. Shoutout to the gang in Belgium, E-recruiting Congress, House of HR put that on. I had a lovely time in Belgium, the medieval town of [Git 00:05:19]. Things move at a different speed over there in Europe, and it was nice to take a breath and have a beer, and breathe all the second hand smoke.

Chad: And I bet you take a look at ... Even though they do have much more smoking over there, they probably ... There's less dying of heart disease. I'm going to have to check that out, just because they're chilled. There's no stress, little to no stress. And they're drinking all the time.

Joel: It's just ride a bike around, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, sit by the river, look at the architecture. Life moves at a much different speed there in Belgium.

Chad: Exactly. Who else you got?

Joel: Is it too early to bring up Tim Sackett and the-

Chad: No. Tim Sackett needs to get those elevator shoes ready, because his short ass is going to be on stage next week at SmashFly Transform in Boston.

Joel: Do you think he's getting his bow ties dry cleaned this week?

Chad: That's a good question, and I wonder if he ties them himself, or if he does the strap-on. Because he looks like a strap-on kind of guy.

Joel: You know he's only a pair of suspenders and a rolled up pair of jeans away from Urkle town. So Tim, we're waiting for the day, man. We know it's coming.

Chad: Oh, yeah. So we're going to be onstage ... Believe it or not, they're actually bringer us onstage with Delta Airlines. We're doing one of those no bullshit kind of employer brand marketing, and whatever the hell we want to talk about panels. But Holland McCue ... Or is it Dombeck? Holland, you need to figure out what your last name is.

Joel: It's his whole first name.

Chad: Holland's awesome. Anyway, she's the head of employer brand, marketing, and all the cool shit that happens at Delta Airlines. Fiserv's Julia Levy, global talent acquisition's going to be onstage, and JZ. He personally told me he just put himself on the panel because he wanted to piss Sackett off.

Joel: Keep in mind for the newbies out there, this is not the rapper Jay-Z, this is the head of marketing at SmashFly JZ.

Chad: Josh Zywien.

Joel: Zywien. Zywien's World. Party time.

Chad: Then I'll be in Jobg8 in Denver later this month, watching my beautiful wife Julie do her presentation, her thing, onstage. Can't wait to see that. And then ... Here it comes man. RecFest, bitches. RecFest. 3,000 attendees, they're already sold out, guys, sorry. There might be a wait list, so check it out, but anyway. 3000 attendees, five stages, and we are fucking headlining. This is going to be ridiculous.

Joel: The stars and stripes are coming across the pond to break shit at RecFest. Get ready.

Chad: So, do you have your red, white, and blue speedo?

Joel: It was originally a thong, but I thought the audience is a little too conservative. So I'm going to pull it back to speedo-ville. But yeah, the red, white, and blues will be in full force in terms of my attire, I don't know about you.

Chad: Excellent. Yeah, no, I'm not going to go that way. I'm going to allow you to be the center of attention.

Joel: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. All the love.

Chad: I'm here for you. So again, if you're going to be in London, you're going to be at RecFest, look us up. We're also having the guys from Talent Nexus, we're doing some really cool video stuff with them, so look for that. It's just fucking crazy, but we're excited. And that being said, I think it's time to talk about shit. What do you think?

Tengai: Hi. This is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I love these guys.

Joel: All right.

Chad: I just got a text, I shit you not, right before we started recording, from one of my buddies. He's been in the industry for 15, 20 years. He said, "Someday, you're going to have to explain this Tengai shit to me."

Joel: And we'll put it in a podcast, so everyone else that's asking, "You'll have to explain this thing to me," can know that too.

Chad: Yeah. Pretty simple. Yeah.

Joel: CMO. CB. Ejection. Dude, this is crazy. Is anyone left at CareerBuilder?

Chad: I don't think so.

Joel: Everyone new lasts about a year.

Chad: Yeah, no shit. So Amy Heidersbach, I think it is-

Joel: Heidersbach.

Chad: Heidersbach. She was there for a year and four months, and this lady has amazing cred and background. She was SVP at Visa, she was head of marketing at PayPal, she was VP slash head of marketing at Capital One, and those are just some of the places she's been. This is the kind of talent that you want to be able to launch your brand, your market, your name, all that stuff ... But I guess she saw the writing on the wall, and said, "You know what? I should probably get the fuck out of here, because this brand in itself is for shit." Not to mention, as we've heard from multiple contacts, that it really feels like they're trying to prep everything to chop up and sell. And that's to me, it doesn't seem like it's too far from that. Where are they going to go from here? They're definitely not going to go up, that's for sure.

Joel: Yeah. I'm just amazed that Amy failed to look at Glassdoor reviews before accepting a job at CareerBuilder. Anyone with her clout and expertise that would read through their Glassdoor reviews would want to jump on the CareerBuilder train ... Clearly she didn't listen to our show, ever, although she should have. That would've probably saved her a lot of pain and suffering as it was. But yeah, this marks I think the second good executive that they've had jump ship after about a year from coming onto the company. So clear as day, man, shit's not good over there, and the executives are proof positive after just a year, getting the hell out of Dodge.

Chad: And if I were the Textkernals or the Broadbeans of the world, I would be asking myself, "When are we going to be carved up and sold off?" Because really, those businesses, I think, my personal opinion, are the easiest to compartmentalize, and hell, they just bought Textkernal for goodness sakes. But anyway, if you think about it, that might not be a bad thing for those brands.

Joel: No, I just don't know who the buyers are. There used to be a day where job boards would buy up these companies, trade them like baseball cards. But those days are over, I mean the companies that people are buying, they're not buying these kinds of companies, and they're not really buying what CareerBuilder's going to be chopping up and selling off. So I don't know. We'll see what happens.

Chad: So you remember when Sal took over Monster, and then everything just went to fucking shit?

Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chad: Not going to say that it wasn't going that way in the first place, before Matt got kicked to the curb, but you can see that kind of happening with Irena in place. Can you not? Is it just me?

Joel: Well, yeah. We've been talking about her for a long time, not being a forward thinking executive. She's a pencil pusher from back in the day, so there's no surprise that there's no vision there, no excitement, no energy around these executives that are joining the company to stay on. I've heard rumors that her clock is ticking, and that her time at the company will probably be short lived, unless some real shit gets turned around, and the executives that are departing the company say that shit isn't getting better. So I'm going to be surprised if she still has a job at CareerBuilder come January 2020.

Chad: Big meeting, I believe, is actually next week with board. So yeah, I think that's going to be a defining moment. You're either going to see more big name heads roll, or you're going to see her head roll.

Joel: Predictions?

Chad: Her head roll.

Joel: Yeah. I believe there's going to be some punching bag work going on on her at this meeting. Good luck, Irena. It was nice knowing you. Unfortunately, if she just would've come on the show, maybe it would save her job. But she didn't.

Joel: Speaking of more news ... By the way, that's sort of breaking news. That hasn't ... You got on that super early, so most people are hearing about Amy leaving CareerBuilder here on this show. More news, probably, for a lot of people, was a guest on our firing squad show this past week.

Chad: Aaron Stewart.

Joel: Yep, and we'll be ... I'm sure you'll be publishing that in due time here. But we rarely get breaking news from those kinds of interviews, but we got at least two news stories from it which are worth talking about. Number one is it looks like will be partnering with's Talent Fusion product, which is basically their staffing solution. Chad, you know more about it than I do. Apparently not a done deal, but according to Aaron, it is pretty much a done deal. So you heard it here first, Monster partnering with on their talent fusion product.

Chad: Pretty big. Because as we've talked about with Indeed and Sift last week, I really see the evolution of staffing becoming more of a technical piece, an app to an extent. And it depends on obviously whether it's high volume or what have you, but we start to see that pushing forward as also, I think Aaron said, he's going IPO, right?

Joel: Yeah, so the other news that we got from that is that will be filing for an IPO this summer, I believe. So I would say by fall of this year, we could have a new IPO participant in the job boards space, which we really haven't had a major one in the job board staffing in a while. We've had ... We'll move on to Upwork and Fiverr, who are in IPO news, particularly Fiverr. But yeah, we don't get a lot of them, so it'll be interesting to see how lands with Wall Street.

Chad: Yeah, so moving to Fiverr, again, this is ... You start to see kind of like these two worlds meld, so you have, which is really focusing on making staffing easier and more cost effective. But that's what you see with Fiverr, too. It's more low cost. People don't see it as staffing, but it really is staffing. I mean, you're really trying to focus on human capital, and filling holes in projects, and those types of things. So I think we're really starting to see this melding of what staffing slash human capital and technology means, and Fiverr goes IPO and you start to see their stock go through the roof.

Joel: Yeah, Fiverr had a really good day. The stock is ... As we're recording this on Friday, went public on Thursday, today it's pulling back, but Upwork is benefiting from the attention that they're getting. And keep in mind, Lyft and Uber are also gig economy stocks, we don't necessarily think of them in that way, but the whole gig economy with Upwork, Fiverr, Lyft, and Uber are all seeing a lot of attention on Wall Street. Uber and Lyft had some rough rides there on the early going, but they're stabilizing and coming back from some of the lows that they've had in the last month or so.

Joel: So yeah, we've been keeping an eye on this. I think it'll be interesting as valuations become clearer, do these public companies get snatched up by bigger entities like the Microsofts, the Googles, the Facebooks. Slack, as we know, will be going public soon as well. It's an interesting time to be in this space, and the platform seems to be what's really hot now at the public markets.

Chad: Yeah. I mean, these types of platforms are good for what everybody likes to call the side hustle, but that's morphing into more of the full-time hustle, which is really, really cool, and some great numbers. According to Upwork's 2019 future workforce report, nearly 74% of millennials and Gen Z managers have remote workers, and 50% of managers increased their use of freelancers in 2016. So that was a few years ago, right? This makes it so much easier. As we take a look at the demographics of our changing workforce, boomers are leaving, we have millennials and Z's coming up. How do they want to interact, and how do they want to work? They want to work remotely, right? They don't have to hit a freaking time clock, so this is something that I find pretty awesome for companies to be able to try to look at to embrace these types of models as they become more readily used by regular Fortune 500 companies.

Joel: Yeah, keyword there is millennials. God bless them. The businesses that are coming online that kind of cater to millennials are really hot. So Beyond Meat, which I know you're a fan of. The plant based protein that tastes like animals meat. Those companies are hot, the Etsys of the world, the Chewys, which is pet stuff. All these businesses that cater to millennials are super hot, and the workforce stuff is no exception. We're seeing a lot of heat around that as well.

Chad: Yep. Yep.

Joel: All right dude, let's get a quick word from our buddies at JobAdX, and we'll talk about government fucking up with fucking shit up on the recruitment AI side of things.

Chad: Imagine that.

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Joel: So this news was kind of an oh shit moment for me, Chad. Illinois, the great state of Illinois, introduced House Bill 25-57, the Artificial Intelligence Video Interview Act. And I don't think I'd ever thought about government really messing up the whole AI recruitment stuff, but yeah, government could really mess it up. So the bill out of Illinois would require employers to seek consent when they use AI platforms in the hiring process. It's passed the state's House and Senate, and is headed to the governor's desk. This is a really advanced bill that is probably going to happen. It really impacts sights like HireVue in particular. AutoVue, Gecko, and Mia were also mentioned. But basically anything that analyzes a respondent's facial expressions to judge if they're a good fit for a job, employees or candidates need to be made aware that this kind of rating system is being used in the interview process.

Chad: I don't know how you didn't think government wouldn't fuck this up.

Joel: I knew they could, I just didn't think they would.

Chad: GDPR and the California regulations that are coming out, this is merely the start. But I want to read a comment from on of our listeners, and somebody who's been on the show. Comment from Quincy Valencia, AKA the queen of chat bots on social media post that I put out there. This is what she had to say, and I love it because she's so smart about this shit.

Chad: She said, and I quote, "They would have been better off if they'd allow a third grader to write it. Define how AI works? Really? Delete it after 30 days. Cool. But then what happens when they're audited by the OFCCP and no longer have the video and analysis used to inform the hiring decision," end quote.

Chad: So very easily encapsulated there. First and foremost, it is written really shabbily. And they're not thinking about how all of these other organizations actually have to record and report off of the decision that they're actually making. So government's not thinking about government. Go fucking figure, right? So this is ... Here are some of the things that you have to do. You have to notify each applicant in writing before the interview that AI may be used to analyze the applicants facial expression, and consider the applicant's fitness for the position. Number one.

Chad: Number 2. Provide each applicant with an information sheet before the interview, explaining how the AI works and what characteristics it uses to evaluate applicants. Number 3. Obtain written consent from the applicant to be evaluated by the artificial intelligence programs. So here's the thing. This is only happening in Illinois, but this is going to have to happen for anybody who applies anywhere, because you know stupid shit like this is going to be rolled out in all these different states.

Joel: Yep, yep. And not only that, but companies that are headquartered elsewhere do hiring in Illinois. So now they have to make special ... Ultimately, this is awful news for vendors that provide these services. Because ultimately companies are going to be like, "Ah, fuck it, it's too much to worry about or deal with. We're just going to be paralyzed by the government and not do these things, and let's just go back to fucking newspaper ads."

Joel: Yeah. The whole privacy thing, we talked about California introducing stuff, now we're looking at Illinois introducing laws against AI recruiting solutions. So at the end of the day, companies are just going to throw up their hands and say, "Screw it," and start ups that may have started up won't start up, because they're too worried about government derailing their business. And that's, at the end of the day, a bad thing.

Chad: One thing I didn't foresee here is them wanting platforms to dump the data after 30 days, or any type of timeframe. Because once again, you can't defend your position of why you hired an individual. So this is good and bad for companies, because this will be data that the OFCCP wouldn't be able to get their hands on in the first place, because it doesn't exist anymore. So for federal contractors that are like, "Oh, thanks state of Illinois. Now that's another piece of data that I don't have to provide to the OFCCP that they can scrutinize on this hiring decision." But on the other side, that information might've also been one of the big reasons why they made that hire. So if they actually said, "Well, yeah, we had the data from our HireVue system, but unfortunately we had to dump it after 30 days."

Joel: In your mind, is this a continuous reaction to the whole Facebook privacy stuff?

Chad: This, to me, just demonstrates once again that government can't keep up with technology. If you watch any of these Congressional hearings, and some of the actual questions that are asked of these CEOs, whether it's Mark Zuckerberg or whomever it is, right? It is idiotic, some of the actual questions that are being asked. It's like, did you ... I mean, you really, literally, did no research whatsoever.

Joel: And I'd love to know how this even got brought up. Were there people that found out they were being analyzed, just anything AI? I'd love to know the catalyst for this law being introduced in the first place.

Chad: Yeah. I think what they'd like to do is just get rid of it entirely, so the whole sentiment analysis and those types of thing, especially from AI. And this is just kind of like the first domino in being able to push some of that over.

Joel: Because the thing is, AI's going to come into play with everything that we do, not just facial expression, but our voice, do we sound stressed? Do we sound like we're lying? Those tools are online, people can get your sentiment through written word. AI is going to be part of everything communication wise that we do, which is all interview based. So when do you stop, if you start at visual face, do you go to voice? And then do you go to written word? I just think this is a pretty slippery slope of government to really get into this, and really screw up innovation in our space in a big way.

Chad: Yeah. The big question is what was the problem they were trying to solve, because I don't know ... If we knew what the problem was, it might be easier to understand why they went down this road, and more than likely they went down the wrong road no matter what. But it's all about what's the problem they're trying to solve, other than a knee jerk reaction to the public saying, "Oh my God, AI."

Joel: Yeah. I think it's reaction to the whole ... I think privacy is first and foremost in a lot of governments, and I think a lot of Congress folks, state Houses et cetera, are trying to find sexy ways to get into press, and going after technology and protecting privacy are good ways to get headlines these days.

Chad: Well, with some of the stupid shit that these tech companies are doing, they're easy fucking targets.

Joel: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So the stupid things that the technology companies like HireVue's doing?

Chad: Not HireVue overall. It makes it easier when Facebook, and Google, and all these organizations are talking about AI, and then tracking, and then the Cambridge Analytica. So you think of it from an extrapolated kind of a view, Facebook is collecting data, right? And that data is being misused. This is entirely different ... I would say levels up of data that once again could easily be misused. So that's the big problem. When you have assholes like Mark Zuckerberg, they don't understand how their tool can actually be used, what happens? You've got to go those next steps. Oh, wait a minute, now we have facial recognition. Oh fuck, enemy of the state. That's how this shit happens, so yes, I don't see this as, "Oh, oh my God, HireVue, the big bad ..." That's not the case. It's the Facebooks of the world that are fucking this up for everybody else.

Joel: I do think there are larger global macro issues that are coming into play here as well, with China and Huawei and businesses not doing business with them anymore. Seeing videos of Obama and past presidents that look real, that are totally fabricated-

Chad: The deep fakes?

Joel: Yeah, this is kind of scary shit. And I think that politicians and their constituents are asking, "Okay, where do we draw the line? What is fair and proper, and what isn't?" A lot of this stuff is reactionary to fear of what's going on on a global scare as well, maybe locally with companies that we know and love, like Google, Facebook, et cetera. It's no accident that Apple is launching log in with Apple that totally anonymizes you as a registrant of a certain site, or doing whatever. That's a reaction of the whole connect with Facebook, or log in with Google. What exactly am I being tracked for, how am I being targeted with advertising? People are kind of scared, and government is a reaction to people's fears.

Joel: Let's talk about some other stuff. Let's talk about some startups in things in the news. This is sort of a rapid fire session, I guess. So Rectxt, we rarely walk into new startups, but we were in Nashville a while back at the staffing tech conference, and sort of met two dudes over a bourbon tasting from Canada, and they mentioned, "Yeah, we're launching, tonight, a new text recruiting platform that's build on Google Chrome. It's kind of cool, you should check it out." So anyway, we've kept in touch with them, and they officially launched Rectxt, that's R-E-C-T-X-T, this past week officially. It is a Google Chrome extension that you can text candidates. So you can check that out. I think we had quite a few hot Nashville chicken sandwiches and wings with them while we were out there.

Chad: At Hattie B's. If you want to get a point where we give a shit about this new product that's coming out, these guys are incredibly smart. They took us out for barbecue at Hattie B's, for craft beer. It was just incredibly smart. So let's put that out there, because more than likely, if it weren't for Hattie B's and these guys being so goddamn brilliant, then we probably wouldn't be talking about it.

Joel: Yeah, the quickest way to our heart is hot food and cold beer, I guess. So kudos to those guys, good luck to them.

Joel: So next up, we have Nymeria, who you might remember is a sourcing tool, where you can pull out emails and all kinds of stuff. So they're pivoting to ... Have launched, because I guess was taken.

Chad: I bet it was.

Joel: But this is a ... Well, they pimp themselves as get any email, get any corporate email on planet Earth kind of thing. So interesting to me as this week we continue to go down the GDPR and privacy route is doing all these sourcing tools, sort of pivot into marketing tools, just grab stuff that won't get us into trouble, such as emails, which are usually public anyway. I don't know, we'll see the trends, see if hiring's solved, and hire tool, and seek out all those guys pivot over to more marketing stuff.

Chad: Yeah, I don't know that sourcing versus marketing matters with GDPR, but I don't know. This is just a really interesting space. Let me just give you a shit ton of emails. I don't know. This, to me, is not exciting at all. I know it is for them, good for you, The only better URL that was out there that's not available is, but yeah. It just doesn't do it for me. I couldn't give two fucks about this whole thing.

Joel: Yeah, they should've just named themselves something. All right, so also in the news, the brand that changed game. Love Mondays, a popular software-

Chad: Mondays, Mondays.

Joel: Anonymous employer review site-

Chad: Oh, that sounds familiar.

Joel: Which was acquired by Glassdoor a couple years ago, I believe, is now going to change it's name to Glassdoor. So Glassdoor will be the omnipotent brand there in South America for online employee anonymous reviews.

Chad: So the big question is, do you still believe that Indeed is going to suck up Glassdoor and become the overall brand of this recruit holdings internet play?

Joel: Well, I do believe that is the smart choice. I'm starting to believe it's not going to be the choice. In fact, I'd be more apt to say Indeed's review section will soon be powered by Glassdoor, because Glassdoor is sort of the monolithic brand now for employer reviews. Maybe Indeed will be powered by Glassdoor on their review section. Who knows?

Chad: It should be, but I don't see, again, the whole hubris thing. Indeed's ego giving anything to anybody.

Joel: Yeah, I agree with that. They'll just ... They'll aggregate Glassdoor reviews with their own reviews, and just call them their own reviews or something. Tag them, GD, or a little Glassdoor on them or something. I don't know.

Joel: All right, continuing with rapid fire news, Google For Jobs ... Wow, it took us this long to talk about them, is now available in our favorite country, vive la France.

Chad: Oui oui.

Joel: Monsieur. Which is ironic, because I just presented in Belgium about Google For Jobs optimization when they don't even have Google For Jobs there yet. But I did comfort everyone in the audience, saying that, "Just wait, it'll be here eventually," and on cue, they launched in France, which obviously neighbors Belgium. So Belgium, it's coming soon, don't worry. All those optimization tips I gave you are very relevant.

Chad: Well, and it's going to be interesting to see how Google For Jobs plays in all these different countries, because we're seeing in Germany, and France, and Japan that they're dealing with the market much different than they are in the US. So they're not just trying to roll this out the same exact way everywhere, so yeah. In Belgium, they might actually have jobs rank higher for the ability to smoke and drink.

Joel: Yeah, I'm not sure anyone in Belgium works. I think they just ride bikes around, and sit on the water and contemplate the universe, and inhale secondhand smoke if it's not firsthand, and drink a lot of beer, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Chad: Yeah, except the secondhand smoke part, yeah. I think it sounds good to me.

Joel: Yeah, I think the lack of stress balances the amount of smoke that you inhale while you're visiting there. But anyway, something that's not bad for your health, let's get a quick note from Canvas, and we'll talk about male managers who are threatened by females.

Chad: Well hello.

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Ed: This is Ed from Philly, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: Very nice.

Joel: You know, with all this Me Too, women empowerment lean in stuff, you'd think we'd have made some progress in the workplace with men's interaction with women.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: But you'd be wrong. According to CNBC story, talking about a survey done by Survey Monkey, who is a interview alumn at the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We encourage everyone to go check that out. And, which is Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg's organization. We've taken a step back. The Me Too and Time's Up movements have brought huge attention to the challenges women face at work, but a new survey finds that 60%, that's six zero, of male managers say they're uncomfortable participating in regular work activities with women, including mentoring, working one on one, or God forbid, socializing. What's wrong with men?

Chad: Right out of the gate, boo fucking hoo, you whiny little dudes. I mean, give me a break. So these men, 60% of men are feeling uncomfortable. Okay, so now everything's flipped because women used to feel uncomfortable around your dumb asses, and if that's how you feel, you were probably doing shit wrong in the first place. I can't say ... I mean, I've managed men and women throughout my life, I can't say that I've been the perfect manager. I can't say that. But one of the things I can say is that if i do feel uncomfortable in a situation, especially like this, I was probably doing shit wrong in the first place. Get over yourself, understand that, much like in the '60s, the power balance is now back moving towards the women's side. And it should, since they're only getting like 75 cents on the dollar, not to mention we don't have enough women in leadership positions.

Chad: So we have a bunch of men who are used to being on top, on the leadership rung, getting paid more, and now they're not, and they feel uncomfortable, and they pit it on this stupid shit of, "Well, I don't feel comfortable around being a woman," it's like, well then stop doing the stupid shit that you're doing, and it won't be a fucking problem, asshole.

Joel: And I love that they use the word uncomfortable, like it's a wedgie.

Chad: Yeah. So uncomfortable.

Joel: It's a little chilly in here. Little uncomfortable.

Chad: Yeah. You know what's been uncomfortable? Women not getting paid as much as men-

Joel: Harassment.

Chad: ... Women having the exact same skillset as men, and still not getting into the leadership position, and yes, the harassment piece, which pretty much encompasses all of this. When we focus on the equity inclusion, and in this case the appropriateness, if it makes you uncomfortable, that's because you're fucked up.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. So digging into this story, senior level men say they are 12 times more likely to be hesitant about the one on one meetings with a junior women than they would a junior man, nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work than a junior man, and six times more likely to be hesitant to have a work dinner with a junior woman than a junior man.

Joel: Let's grow up, people. Let's just be human beings.

Chad: Just slap these fuckers in the face.

Joel: Of course, this inevitably effects the hiring process, right? If there's this comfort at the top, they're going to hire people that don't make them uncomfortable, which means more white dudes in the workplace.

Chad: See, this is where I think it's incredibly smart, because this uncomfortableness means that change is happening, and that's exactly what needs to happen. So as change continues to happen, hopefully, then we will get more females in those positions they've deserved for years. They will be getting paid what they should be getting paid. So I think this whole uncomfortableness is because we have a bunch of men who are used to something, and change is happening. And I say boo fucking hoo.

Joel: You know the change we really need?

Chad: Tengai.

Joel: An unbiased recruiting robot.

Chad: Yes!

Tengai: Hi. This is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I love these guys.

Chad: We out.

Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra because ... Well, I'm extra. For more, visit

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