VONQ Goes Hollywood & Indeed Builds a Death Star

This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, the team is Cheese-less but far from chill as we unpack one of the wildest weeks in talent tech.

VONQ resurfaces with a full-on cinematic product launch, rolling out its new EQO (echo) platform like it’s the second coming of the iPhone. Is it legit innovation? A repackaged rescue mission? Either way — we break it down.

Meanwhile, Indeed keeps building a higher, nastier walled garden, yanking anonymous job alerts from millions of job seekers. Their message? “Want a job? Hand over your data.” Charming. We dig into how this power grab hurts job seekers AND employers and what smart TA teams should be doing right now.

Then we bounce to Instagram’s return-to-office mandate, Australia banning kids from social media under 16, Home Depot becoming the backdrop for a protest musical, and the sudden alignment of unions and staffing leaders against AI (yes, hell has frozen).

All that, plus whiskey debates, fantasy football humiliation, skiing plans, age shaming via Spotify Wrapped, and more holiday mischief than HR can handle.

If you work in talent — or enjoy watching talent tech burn — this episode is mandatory listening.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Chad (00:32.623)

Welcome to the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm Chad Feliz Navidad Sowash.

JT (00:39.214)

I'm JT, Elf is my favorite movie, O'Donnell.

Lieven (00:43.456)

And I'm Lieven. I might have a cold, but I'm still hot as ever. Funny when I assume.

Chad (00:48.077)

And on this week's show, VONQ launches and indeed builds walls everywhere. Let's do this.

Chad (01:00.499)

Hello guys, we're Cheeseless today.

JT (01:02.158)

What's up? I know, I know.

Lieven (01:04.19)

Yeah.

Chad (01:05.425)

He, he's taken the kids to LA. So, and that's not a metaphor. He's literally taking the kids to LA for the weekend.

JT (01:14.464)

Okay.

Lieven (01:14.878)

going to bring them back also.

Chad (01:17.337)

I don't know. That's, that's not for sure. That's not for sure. it might be for a college visit though. You never know. you know, he's got one getting ready, one in college, IU, another one that's getting ready to go to college. And she has, she's incredibly smart, which means, you know, not sure that she might be the milkman's. but at the end of the day, they're looking for, they're looking for the prospect of law schools. So, pretty, pretty stoked. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Lieven (01:29.728)

Lieven (01:36.62)

Yeah.

Lieven (01:43.509)

aren't you supposed to go to Harvard then if you're in the United States and do law?

JT (01:45.655)

Thanks

Chad (01:48.979)

I mean, Stanford's out there. mean, there are plenty of good law schools. Yeah, plenty of good law schools.

JT (01:53.262)

Great schools. Yeah.

Lieven (01:54.24)

So it'll cost them a shitload of money.

Chad (01:58.321)

Always. Yeah, that's, yeah, it's all about money here in the United States Lieven. You should know that. But that being said, where the hell have you been, Levin? You've been gone for a while. What's up?

JT (01:58.412)

Yeah.

Lieven (02:11.144)

Yeah, I've been copying you. I was traveling. I was talking at congresses, making myself useful as usual. was in London, just came back yesterday for the Staffing Industry Analyst Conference. What's it called? Executive Forum, Congress in London. And SIA, something like that, yeah, SIA. And that's actually one of the better ones I know. So there are so many of those, but SIA is actually good. They have...

Chad (02:13.67)

You

Chad (02:18.605)

that's good.

Chad (02:28.071)

okay. Yeah. SIA.

Yeah, yeah.

Lieven (02:39.558)

lots of numbers. They're number crunchers, that's how you say it. But it's sometimes almost boring. It's very dry, but very interesting. no show at all. It's in a very old, nice hotel in London. The landmark, it's amazing actually. I love it. But it's cool. I like it. So I was in a...

Chad (02:57.373)

that's not bad.

JT (03:00.033)

Yeah, beautiful.

Chad (03:01.542)

Very nice.

Chad (03:06.46)

So no trips to the Alps. Is that what I'm hearing? No trips to the Alps, no skiing trips? Or are those coming up?

Lieven (03:11.314)

They're actually opening in a week or so. So I'll be in the Alps the first time in January. I'm looking forward to it.

Chad (03:18.93)

What about you JT, when are you hitting the slopes?

JT (03:21.613)

Um, hopefully this weekend, believe it or not, I am very close to moving into a cabin that's taken me eight years to build. So yeah, so we've at least eight years. Yeah. Bought the land eight years ago. It's in Sunday River, Maine, which is a big ski resort in Maine. Uh, we, skied on Thanksgiving and, uh, yeah. So we're starting moving this weekend and I was skiing through the holidays. Yes, you can come anytime.

Chad (03:29.394)

What?

Lieven (03:29.524)

Where? Where?

Chad (03:41.138)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (03:46.352)

Leiven's looking it up right now.

Lieven (03:46.58)

I'm actually jealous. how is...

JT (03:49.935)

And I mean, if you like skiing on ice, Leiven, you're not gonna think it's skiing, but that's okay. okay, then you will, then I think there's a Chad and Cheese podcast mountain moment coming. That sounds phenomenal. Yeah.

Lieven (03:55.274)

I like skiing everywhere. Ice powder, whatever.

Chad (04:02.726)

That's what I'm saying. That we, we, yes.

Lieven (04:02.818)

that's with a fireplace and some hot wine. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. I'll keep you on your words.

JT (04:08.143)

Done deal. Done deal. Yes.

Chad (04:08.53)

Oh yeah. Mold wine. Oh, I love me a little mold wine. Well, and while we're there, we can start to share Spotify playlists. I don't know if you both have had the wrapped come up in your, okay, so.

Lieven (04:17.888)

Thank

JT (04:18.318)

Of course.

Lieven (04:20.69)

Yeah... Yeah, my kid showed me that it was there so I had to watch.

Chad (04:28.06)

So it's interesting because every single year Spotify comes out with this rap to be able to show all these different statistics. And I asked just for three from you guys, but I think it's interesting that Spotify literally is playing Big Brother. They're watching you and you know it and they've packaged it so nicely that you can't wait to show your friends, hey, look, look at what Spotify

JT (04:47.267)

Huge.

Lieven (04:51.594)

Do.

JT (04:53.592)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (04:56.998)

gave to me this Christmas.

Lieven (04:58.228)

Yeah, I never even thought about it like that, but you're totally right. They're keeping an eye on us and then they're presenting it like it's something nice. Cool. Yeah.

JT (04:59.115)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (05:06.642)

It's all about the packaging, man. It's all about the packaging. So, okay, so first and foremost, JT, give me the hours listed, your top artist, and then your top podcast.

JT (05:17.654)

I think it told me that I have like nine days worth of listening. So that's a lot of hours, obviously. Yeah. So I think I did a pretty good job there. My favorite artist was Jordan Davis. So country singer. In fact, all of my top songs were like top country artists. I feel like I'm going to send the screenshot to them on social media and tag them and go, you're welcome. right? Like, I feel like I should do that.

Chad (05:21.362)

Yeah, it's like over 13,000 hours.

Lieven (05:23.264)

These are rookie numbers, rookie numbers, yeah.

Chad (05:30.578)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (05:34.958)

Okay

Chad (05:42.31)

Yeah, exactly.

Lieven (05:42.602)

Yeah.

JT (05:45.166)

But then my top podcast was Alex Hermosy's The Game Podcast, which is all about building and scaling businesses, which tracks, because I listen to that pretty regularly.

Chad (05:52.146)

Cool. yeah, yeah. What about you, Levin?

Lieven (05:57.28)

I listened for 29,380 minutes, which is 20 days. And 20 days in fact. But I have lots of long commutes and then I listen constantly. and also I just like listening to music. And my favorite singer was, the singer was Leonard Cohen. I know it's very old school, but apparently while cooking, always listened to Leonard Cohen. kind of cook a lot. And the album I listened most to was American.

Chad (06:01.308)

Holy shit!

JT (06:02.83)

How many did it? Okay.

Chad (06:08.999)

Yeah.

Chad (06:21.234)

Nice! Uh huh, uh huh.

Lieven (06:26.216)

A tree from Johnny Cash. So I have something with Americans apparently. Yeah.

JT (06:31.616)

Okay, wait, question though. Question, did it give you your average age? Did y'all get that too? Because it told me the average age. What was your average age? I was 21.

Lieven (06:36.934)

Yeah, I'm totally offended. 56 or something. I'm just if wisdom, wisdom apparently comes with H and they think I'm 56. But I mean, I'm not even close. Yeah. It's, it's a local postcast from the Belgian national radio about a series of history. It should have been I know, Chateau de Chese, but it actually was something about Napoleon.

Chad (06:43.122)

2156, okay.

JT (06:45.166)

50,

JT (06:49.986)

We go music choice wise. Sorry. What was your podcast? Sorry about that.

Chad (06:51.004)

Huh. So, yeah, it's a podcast.

Lieven (07:06.194)

So I'll give you a spoiler in the end, he loses.

Chad (07:06.398)

very nice. For all you kids who didn't know. Yeah. He loses in the end. All right. So my hours, I thought I was kicking ass taking names until I heard Levens. had 19,393 hours, which is, I think it's like around 13 days. A top artist is Miles Davis, a top podcast Pivot and the

JT (07:11.853)

you

Lieven (07:13.992)

Yeah, he loses.

Lieven (07:23.328)

JT (07:33.134)

good podcast.

Chad (07:35.09)

I'm going to attribute this to my Miles Davis in my listening to jazz music. My age? Guess my age.

Lieven (07:45.92)

75.

Chad (07:48.818)

84.

Lieven (07:50.816)

Are you serious? I was just joking with 75. Oh my god. Okay, then I shouldn't...

Chad (07:53.095)

Yes. Yes. I'm like, Jesus, man. It's like, and the funny part is that like they show you all the genres that you listen to and you've got like jazz. I've got hard rock and then I've got, I've got, was it a 90s rap and it's just like, it's, it's, it's, but at the end of the day it was 84. So was like, okay, yeah. Julie thought that shit was funny.

Lieven (08:02.206)

Yeah.

JT (08:14.414)

So the takeaway from this is that I need to start sending YouTube boys playlists so we can get these ages down. You need to start listening to my music.

Lieven (08:21.204)

Yeah, you keep our average down. That's right.

Chad (08:23.778)

First off, think I think I'm good with that on you. Yes I definitely want to hear some of that but you know, good. I'm good with my playlists I enjoy my playlists what I what I'm really good with is the first Mm-hmm. What you got JT?

JT (08:41.216)

Well, my shout outs to Sherm. You all asked me about my turkey, but I gotta go back because I never dreamed that that would be the video of the year on the Chad and Cheese podcast that would get that many people contacting me out of the woodwork. Everyone going, JT, you were kind of wound up there. Like, I guess I don't come across that angry, but thank you to all of you that reached out and agreed with me. Sherm, do better. Two words, pretty simple.

Chad (08:44.748)

Again?

Chad (09:09.628)

not happening.

JT (09:10.622)

Not yeah. Yeah, but anyways, that was kind of crazy. So I love y'all for reaching out. Thank you.

Chad (09:16.274)

So.

Lieven (09:16.672)

Actually, it happens a lot to me also. A great story. A few days ago, I was sitting in a meeting and a guy very seriously asked, by the way, do you know the podcast, Chat and Cheese? And then he was referring to Chat and Cheese as the absolute, yeah, the guys who knows best and the absolute reference in their business. And I affirmed, yes, I know them.

Chad (09:36.818)

I know because I'm on the damn show

JT (09:37.55)

I'm sure.

Lieven (09:39.124)

Yeah, I got humble, but yeah, but it was fun.

Chad (09:43.475)

So, on the Shurm side, there's actually new news and this is actually back to Business Insider. Yes, listen to this. The world's largest human resource trade group argued in court that the plaintiff shouldn't be allowed to portray Shurm as an expert in HR during the trial that will begin with jury selection on Monday.

JT (09:50.848)

it's going to get better.

Chad (10:12.91)

Sherm literally, I shit you not, Sherm literally said, we can't be seen as an expert in HR because of the shit that we did. Right? So yes, this is amazing. Johnny Taylor, nice suits, the rest of it, he's really shit at, but it's going to come out in court. So it'll be, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. Whew, enough of that. Okay, Leiven. So, your shout out.

JT (10:36.664)

is going to.

Lieven (10:42.176)

Okay, my shout out goes to Dimitris Theodorakis. You've probably never heard about him. He's the director of Uni Europe, which is the European Trade Union. It's a federation representing 7 million service workers. And I happened to be yesterday evening when I came back from London in a panel discussion from WEC, the World Employment Confederation. We were supposed to argue or to have discussion about AI and how this will impact the world of work, et cetera.

Chad (10:48.348)

Excuse me.

Chad (10:53.743)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (11:12.572)

Normally, the unions and the staffing industry don't get along too well because we are into flexible work and they're just not flexible. So we mostly are into fights. But now, during the session, we came to the conclusion that we totally agreed with each other. So he thinks the workers should be protected from

Chad (11:21.5)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (11:35.232)

getting stupid work because of AI, where AI is making the decision and they just have to push some buttons and they're losing all, you know. And I think we should totally fight AI and robots replacing humans because I'm not in the robot selling business. I'm in the human selling business. So we're totally pro humans. So in the end, we agree, whenever the AI takes over, we're going to be in the trenches together fighting those damn bots. So the unions and House of HR, one fight, one struggle.

Chad (12:05.938)

Well that's a...

Lieven (12:06.164)

That's why.

Chad (12:09.884)

When we start seeing eye to eye Lieven, this is a little bit much. The union and staff, that's great. That's great. But I would say that more than likely the other organizations in staffing probably aren't seeing it the same way that you guys are. And I know you guys think much differently. You come at the market much differently than the Adeccos or the Ronstads or what have you, but.

Lieven (12:16.009)

Yeah, I know.

Lieven (12:19.953)

It's a small step.

Chad (12:39.658)

they're focused on, mean, they don't give two shits about people, especially Ronstadt. So you know that they get more EBITDA if they have less head count. So I would assume that the Ronstadt's of the world would be focusing on trying to use robots wherever they can, which makes them literally less human.

Lieven (12:59.156)

I'm not getting into that because as a member of the World Employment Confederation, I'm supposed to support our industry. But I take note of whatever you just said and I'm going to look into a chat. no, but seriously, politically correct. Normally I'm not like that. Rika will be very happy.

Chad (13:01.125)

Yeah

Chad (13:08.274)

That is...

JT (13:12.428)

Wow, that was very, very politically correct, even. Very.

Chad (13:18.204)

That was very politically correct and professional. that being said, I want to add a little holiday spirit to this. So my shout out is coming to you in a video. That's right. have, it's literally a holiday carolers at a Home Depot. Check it out.

JT (13:21.005)

That was.

Lieven (13:23.156)

Yes, I know.

JT (13:29.185)

you

Chad (14:04.924)

Sing it!

Chad (14:48.444)

So, Lieven, yeah, you might not know Fleece Navidad, that's Spanish, but there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the reason why they were having it in the Home Depot is because Home Depot has been, at least the news has been, they've been coordinating with the US government with regard to coming and actually doing mass deportations. Because, because many times,

JT (14:50.414)

Thank

Lieven (14:53.566)

I know it, it's a Christmas song. But...

Lieven (15:13.823)

You know?

Chad (15:16.786)

there will be contractors that actually come to the Home Depot parking lot and there are immigrants that are there that are available for work. So those immigrants are usually in mass and you know the guys will come and they'll pick and they'll throw them in the back of the truck and they'll take them to work for the day and so on and so forth. But in this case, ICE shows up and throws them in the back of a panel van and deports them. And this is a very smart

And I think a wonderful way to literally protest what not just the US government's doing, but also what Home Depot is doing.

Lieven (15:51.174)

It was sad to look at, but you know in Nazi Germany the companies working together with the government in that time got in very big troubles afterwards for collaborating with fascist government. So what was the company called? Home Depot? Home Depot. They should be aware that when times are changing again people will remember I guess.

Chad (16:03.068)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (16:07.772)

Home Depot, yeah.

Chad (16:15.908)

Exactly, exactly.

JT (16:16.906)

Yeah, I just love the social media aspect of it. You know me, I'm a social media girlie. I love the creativity of it, right? Like that's the right way to make something go viral. So it was beautifully done, beautifully done.

Chad (16:23.44)

huh.

Lieven (16:27.262)

Mm.

Chad (16:30.33)

It was, it was. What else is beautifully done is, well, we'll let Steve McGrath tell us about it.

Lieven (16:55.941)

my god... My favourite Scottish man.

Chad (17:09.426)

Super Soft.

JT (17:49.545)

I could. First of all, I couldn't get that doing that right once this year. So the fact that he nails it. But secondly, I'm going to overshare I am such a sucker for an accent. His accent is like, it's like the best I can't take it. Yours as well. Even I am an accent girlie. I do I love a good accent. So he's selling it. That was a 10 out of 10.

Lieven (17:50.728)

Yeah.

Chad (17:50.93)

Love it? Huh? Yeah, yeah.

Chad (18:01.68)

yes. yeah.

It is amazing.

Lieven (18:14.372)

Scottish accent actually is cool, that's right. And what was the whiskey called? Was it chicken cock? Chicken cock. I heard it correctly. Okay, weird. Yeah.

Chad (18:17.262)

It is, it is. Chicken cock. That's right. Yep. Yeah. Chicken cock. The unofficial official, official unofficial, whiskey of the Chad and cheese podcast. And then, and then we have the official fantasy football, Chad and cheese league sponsored by factory fix. I'm going go down one through 12.

JT (18:20.75)

Chicken Nuggets.

Yeah, you did.

JT (18:30.754)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (18:31.114)

chicken cruck.

Chad (18:42.482)

The leader is still Courtney Nappo. She's kicking ass taking names Mackenzie Maitland number two still Then we've got Joel Cheaton cheeseman on number three. We've got David the returning champs stifle Stephen McGrath your favorite Scottish man Jada Weiler Chad so wash in the seven position. I'm moving on up William Carrington. That sounds really proper sir, William Carrington

Lieven (18:52.052)

Ha ha.

JT (18:52.651)

Ha ha ha ha.

Lieven (19:10.015)

Yeah.

Chad (19:10.29)

Uh, number nine, we've got Jason Putnam, 10 Megan Rattigan, 11 ginger Dodds and rounding up the whole thing is Jeremy Roberts who is still winless. is O and 13. Thanks everybody for playing and it is time for that's right, baby.

God, this has been a really good week. It's been a really good week. Okay, so we're going to talk about a company that we haven't needed to talk about in a long time, and that's VONQ. VONQ had a high production product launch of their new platform called EQO, spelled E-Q-O. Why can't we spell things right? I don't get that. VONQ. And, Leven, since your colleagues at the House of HR were pretty prominent during the presentation,

Do you have any thoughts? Did you get a chance? Because you've been all over the place. Did you get a chance to look at it?

Lieven (20:09.152)

No problem was it was actually my agenda. was desperately looking forward to watching it, but I was speaking at the Congress in London and I couldn't, it was at the same moment. So I got a link to watch it afterwards and I checked for like 10 minutes or something right before the show, but I didn't have time to watch it totally. So please enlighten me. What are they up to? Are they going to improve their products? Are they going to launch something amazing?

Chad (20:15.548)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (20:19.314)

You're busy. Yeah, you're busy.

Chad (20:37.394)

They better. JT, what are your thoughts? I'll jump into mine. I've got a long set of shit to say.

JT (20:43.95)

Well, I mean, at 51 minutes long, it's clearly they're going to change the world. That was my first issue. It did not need to be 51 minutes long. I also, the production value for me, and I know I'm getting a little nitpicky and that, like the stage, but you could tell it was on a stage in a, you know, like I know what they were going for. I'm not sure that landed the way that that was filmed, which for me then,

makes me distrustful. I'm just going to be honest. Why do you need 51 minutes? Why all of this hoopla? You showed customers somewhere in there, but that kind of push immediately puts me on the defensive. And now I just want to see the proof as opposed to assume that by default, this is the greatest thing ever. So I know I'm a cynic, but that's how I took it.

Chad (21:38.075)

Let me dig in real quick. and I totally get that. I mean, it was funny because Julie and I actually sat down and watched it on TV last night, right after, because we were done with the day and I'm like, I got to watch this thing again. I've watched it once already and we got to watch it again. And I started it. She's like, holy shit, this is, this is almost an hour long. I'm like, okay, babe, let's just go ahead and chew through this. But anyway, if you've been paying attention over the last, you know, four to five years, you'll know that VONQ has been a roller coaster ride of

organization. In short, they acquired a programmatic player. They invaded the U.S. and they built a legit leadership team in the U.S. Then they got rid of them all. They pretty much retreated from the U.S. They hired Ritu, their current CEO, after a relative short amount of time. We now have EQO. Now, Leven, this is pretty cool because you didn't get to see this. I believe that the event Bill Fisher actually was referring to in

JT (22:16.962)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (22:37.146)

The presentation during kind of like starting the EQO journey was at the eRecruitment Congress in 2024 in Amsterdam, which we were all there. Yeah, he was. And this is part of what he was talking through. This is before Ritu was hired as well. We saw Bill Fischer, the CTO of VONQ on stage to show us the first and quite buggy at that point.

Lieven (22:43.456)

He was on stage there, yes?

Lieven (22:55.786)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (23:05.042)

versions of what they were building and playing with. And since then, and since that event, Bill and the whole team have been doing what they call building in public to test and gain valuable feedback from everybody who's watching on YouTube, on LinkedIn, and so on and so forth. But my two cents about this entire launch is this is exactly what VONQ should be doing.

I've been incredibly critical and anybody over at VONQ knows that and anybody who's listened to show knows that I've been critical of VONQ, but this is exactly what they should be doing. The top of the funnel is a fucking mess and major players like Indeed are not, I repeat, they are not going to help hiring companies figure it out. I especially like the screening candidates in piece. And what I mean by screening in is that the system digest your CV.

Lieven (23:36.596)

Mm-hmm. Always.

Chad (23:58.405)

It performs a gap analysis against the job you're applying for and then starts asking you questions chat bot wise, specific to the actual requirements associated with that job. So this interaction takes only a few minutes and somewhat validates whether the candidate is actually qualified or not. Now that is a fucking revelation. with

Lieven (24:05.599)

Hmm.

Chad (24:22.482)

regard to the actual product launch itself, which you were talking about 51 minutes yet. There's no question it can be, it can be condensed. It wasn't perfect, but it was damn near perfect for a launch in our space. Probably better than 99 % of the product launches we see in our space. was much like smart recruiters did with Winston and that launch.

had and they tried to get their Apple moment, their unveiling of EQO is their iPhone. And I was more than impressed. And all of this shows to me that they're actually paying attention to the market. Did they take too long in certain areas? Could they have actually had a better show runner in there, I think, to be able to try to pull things together? I do, I do. But most of the launches that happen out there today are pretty shit.

And they did really well on packaging and delivery compared to the rest of the market. So I think this launch makes me feel like we're going to be talking a lot about VONQ in the coming days, the coming days, weeks and months. And overall, I think this presentation and the focus toward efficiency and cost per qualified slate is exactly not just what VONQ needs, but what the entire industry needs. So I am a big

Lieven (25:31.122)

Thank

Chad (25:44.179)

I'm a big fan after this. I'm a big fan after this. Can they pull it off? Can they pull it off? We shall see. But they had some pretty big companies in there. They had House of HR. They had a Deco. They had, I think it was a software one. They had a bunch of different companies. Now they were all European companies, not US. So that is a huge obstacle that they're going to have to try to tackle. But other than that, I was a big fan of the launch.

Lieven (25:45.632)

Lieven (26:11.838)

I'm very happy to hear it, in fact, because quite a few of our companies are using VONC as a multi-poster and further things. So it's good to know that they're improving. And I kind of like those people. They're very engaging. Ritu, for example, is a very good CEO. She's constantly reaching out. She's trying to involve clients in customer boards, et cetera. So it's good I'm going to watch the video after all. I was scanning through it and...

Chad (26:18.514)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (26:30.866)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (26:39.392)

I must say, JD, you said something about the state channel, but maybe it's a European thing. I liked it because it's better than the average zoom presentation where you share your screen and show something terrible. No, this was, they put some effort in it and I appreciated it. So, yeah, maybe, I, but since I know, since I know she has a cabin in Maine, I'm going to, she's my friend. Yes. No, bad words about JD. Never. No.

Chad (26:51.398)

Mm-hmm.

JT's a hard nut to crack. That's the thing. She's...

JT (26:56.686)

I am, I am, I'm, no, it's true. I'm so bougie.

Chad (27:03.9)

Hahaha

JT (27:04.066)

Yes, you are. We're do a little retreat.

Lieven (27:09.12)

Okay.

Chad (27:10.428)

That's awesome. But again, I think, think, again, a big, a big applause back to the, the VONQ team in pulling off. we take a look at, if we take a look at the rest of the industry, how they launch things, and then I literally just want to take a look at, okay, so smart recruiters this earlier in February, 2025, they pivoted their platform. They threw away their roadmap.

And then they started to rebuild and repackage and it's the repackaging and it's the delivery that if you want to get acquired, you have to do right. Smart recruiters did it right. And who the fuck, who, who, who acquired them? SAP, right? So when you look at VONQ, it almost looks like they're trying to emulate some of the things that a smart recruiters did. because you gotta think that that's exactly what VONQ wants. They want.

to find an exit with a big sugar mama sugar daddy doesn't matter. And I think they're following the recipe.

JT (28:17.154)

I like that. I actually really like that as in, know, there's a blueprint there. We've seen it once before, so why not, you know, lean in? But I do think the, the U S market, I mean, I would have loved to have seen a couple of customers here. So that validation, but I'm sure that's coming next.

Chad (28:33.466)

They're going to have to make it happen to be able to get a big firm to buy into them. They're going to have to make it happen. on the other side, we've got another company who's trying to make it happen, maybe more in an evil way. We're going to talk a little bit about indeed. We'll be right back.

JT (28:40.099)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (28:48.768)

I knew it, the moment you said evil, I knew it was going to be a bot indeed.

Chad (28:51.634)

Ha!

Okay. Indeed. The platform that is usually just trying to find new ways to take your damn money just dropped a massive fucking bomb on job seekers. Remember those anonymous job alerts job seekers could sign in for? The just add email and save your job search for daily job alerts by email. Yeah, those. That feature that's been on job boards for over 25 years. Yeah, that. They're changing it.

And it's crazy. millions of people, job seekers, people trying to find a job will stop receiving those alerts in less than a month. Okay, JT, the walls are getting higher over at LinkedIn. Is this a good thing, bad thing? And how do you think job seekers will react?

JT (29:47.118)

All right, well, you meant indeed, right? Not LinkedIn. Was that like a Freudian slip there? Yeah.

Chad (29:50.052)

sorry. I think it was because they're both monopolistic as hell.

JT (29:55.125)

Yeah, I mean, so first of all, job seekers are lazy. They're who I work with, but we've made them lazier and lazier and lazier. And in doing that, we've done a huge disservice because they don't know how to look for work. They don't know how to market themselves. It's a hot freaking mess that we created, that indeed created, and all those other companies. Let's just give you alerts. The number one complaint I hear from job seekers all the time is they send me stuff that's not even a match for me. Why would I want this thing?

Chad (30:01.734)

Yeah? Yeah?

Chad (30:10.514)

Mm-hmm.

JT (30:23.49)

So I think they're gonna have a rude awakening in how few people will do it. I think their reasoning behind it is the current market, right? There's just so many people looking for work. So now's your chance to forcibly get these people to give us this information, improve our large language model, get them updated, right? And take advantage of it. So I get why they're doing it. Again, I don't think they're going to see the adoption that they think they are, especially when...

Chad (30:31.036)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (30:35.07)

Yup.

Chad (30:36.316)

Yes.

JT (30:51.618)

people do bother to update and still get crummy jobs, right? Because quiet hiring is in its era, right? Quiet hiring is, I'm not gonna post a job on Indeed. I don't want 10,000 applicants, a lot of them from robot AI driven bots, right? Quiet hiring is I'm going to go find them. I'm going to shop candidates and I will contact them if I'm interested. We're in the height of it. And what most people don't understand is that's not going to go away. People say, well, quiet hiring happens when it's a bad job market, but the moment they need jobs again, they're gonna post jobs. They're not.

the AI technology that we're seeing right now is going to change matching forever. And so, I mean, this last ditch effort, fine, but again, just it's frustrating to see people take advantage of job seekers who already don't know how to look for work. Rant over.

Lieven (31:36.554)

Yeah.

Chad (31:36.589)

Rant over. Okay, I'm go ahead and hit mine up and then you can go ahead and digest it all, Levin. Why is this happening? You just nailed it. You just nailed it. Indeed, they have job seekers over a barrel. The job market is horrible. And instead of helping the millions of already registered job seekers by creating job matching that actually fucking works, what do they do?

JT (32:03.928)

Thank you. Thank you.

Chad (32:04.636)

They're focusing on the data grab. They're telling job seekers, you need a job? Great, register, fuck off, right? And I mean, they're pretty much saying.

JT (32:07.054)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (32:20.464)

But remember, Indeed is also forcing a data grab on the employer side by mandating the use of their Indeed sync API, which I predict will turn into mandating employers give their disposition data. the job market sucks. So Indeed is using that monopoly power for evil once again. I mean, this is something that we should be used to. The claims...

that this will stop bots is hilarious. North Korean hacking centers will just have teams creating accounts, which they're already doing. And then they'll just set loose the bots inside the walled garden. Here's what employers need to understand though. You already have paid for most of these relevant candidates already. Okay. They're sitting in your CRM or your applicant tracking system. If you're a company, if you're a staffing company, if you're an RPO, you've already paid for most of these, right?

Lieven (33:14.366)

Hmm.

Chad (33:20.434)

Here are two steps. I'm going to give you two steps on what you should be doing right now. Step one, focus on your career site conversion rates. All candidate traffic that's just bouncing off your career site. That's what it is. All that candidate, it's crazy the amount of career site traffic that's happening today that literally is just bouncing off. What can we do around that? Well, great example, Compass Group.

they focused their career site conversion and they went from 1 % to 12 % and they saved $1.5 million on Indeed alone in six months. Just by changing the conversion rate, just by adding Dahlia and any other type of conversion capture, that's the best thing to do. That's step one. You can save money, conversion is key. Number two.

Lieven (34:10.698)

Thank

Chad (34:19.396)

start engaging your current database. Instead of going external for candidates, use the ones you've already paid for. Match recs against them and use the tools like Paradox's Olivia, Smart Recruiters Winston, or even VONC's EQO that they're now putting out. And any tech that can reengage candidates and keep those candidates warm. Those are people that you've already paid for. Ones that are in your CRM and your applicant tracking system. So for me, those are the two steps that companies can take right now.

to start literally dis-me-meteorating, indeed, so that you can get rid of.

those evil bastards.

Lieven (34:59.392)

No, you're right. They are telling the job seeker there's no such thing as a free lunch. If you want your jobs, you're going to pay with your data. And now is the time to do so. They're going to get away with it because there's scarcity again, where the balance is again shifting from candidate-driven to a client-driven markets. So people are actually looking for a job again and struggling to find one. So if they want to do it, they have to do it now. And I'm sure indeed,

Chad (35:07.922)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (35:22.94)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (35:26.698)

theirself, they are struggling with the zero click searches on large language models. So they are trying to figure out how to cope with that. So I think by putting these walls around their own candidates, which they got by the way, by using our jobs, but I'm still angry about that part. Yeah, of course. They're trying to protect their business and their revenue and their model, cetera. And you know, I don't even have problems with it. It's their decision.

Chad (35:43.302)

Yes, but as bait. Yeah.

Lieven (35:56.114)

Unlike some other decisions they made in the past, it's their choice. future will tell if they were right. And I guess many people will just, you just have to add a phone number now. It's just one single step and then you have an account, but then they will start building that account. will start hunting you, harassing you until you add your resume and they have all the information they want. But it's a strategy as another one. We'll see.

JT (36:04.824)

Mm-hmm.

JT (36:17.687)

Yeah.

Chad (36:25.564)

I think it's amazing though that because I know just from being in this space for so long, one of the number one traffic sources every single day for every job site that's out there, anything that's starting with jobs or using them as bait, right, is email. These actual alerts, these alerts drive, generally they're the number one traffic provider and they're also low cost, low to no cost, right?

Lieven (36:43.806)

Of course.

Chad (36:55.142)

So to me, this really, because of the job market, it's like we have to do it now because we can't do it later if the job seekers are in control, we're fucked. So they're taking a gamble. to me personally, I think the gamble is stupid, but we shall see, we shall see. On to our friends over at Instagram. So this one is from Engadget.

JT (37:08.91)

Hmm.

Chad (37:24.69)

Instagram employees will be back at their desks full time next year. Wow. Beginning February 2nd, workers with the social media network will be expected to spend five days a week working in person in offices. Instagram leader Adam Masseri announced the change in an internal memo where he told his staff, quote, it's clear we have to evolve and quote, also closing the note with quote,

JT (37:29.673)

Ehooo!

Chad (37:52.275)

2026 is going to be tough." JT, there are so many job seekers out there that just don't have a choice. If you want a job, they're going to have to get back into the office. Is this a good thing, bad thing, or does it even matter?

JT (37:58.639)

Yeah. Yep.

JT (38:10.294)

Well, you know, every company can decide what it wants to do. What I will say is this, the companies that I am talking to that are mandating five day awake RTO, their latest data point that they're providing is the massive increase in depression. So they're saying within four years in the U S it will be the number one illness. And they firmly believe in the, whoever they're sourcing their data from, that that is coming through isolation. And so.

Chad (38:18.855)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (38:26.586)

yeah.

Chad (38:37.264)

Okay.

JT (38:38.606)

A lot of these companies I'm talking to, their HR departments are saying, we're doing these employees a favor by bringing them back in so that they are not at risk, I'm not kidding you, of depression, right? And so I've heard this three separate times now, three separate times now. I don't know if that's Instagram's play, they weren't one of them, but clearly that is starting to be, someone came up with that.

Chad (38:50.546)

That's great spin. That's spin. Jesus.

Chad (38:56.796)

We're talking about Instagram.

JT (39:08.406)

and everyone else is glomming onto it as the justification, right? So I think you're gonna hear a lot more of that. We're doing it because of the health of our employees. They need to be in, they need to be connecting, you know, that sort of thing. Big time, big time. So unfortunate though for people who have built lives, you know.

Chad (39:13.458)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (39:19.676)

been.

Chad (39:23.666)

What do you think, Leiven? Yeah.

Lieven (39:35.946)

So I'm sure Instagram.

Chad (39:38.288)

What? How great for an RTO or it's like the Zoom you're on mute.

Lieven (39:43.178)

Yeah, my wife was just coming in so I muted myself because she might have not remembered me being in recording, but she did actually. Normally she says hi. So, or she's angry or she remembered. But I think she remembered. Okay. But about Instagram, think they, I'm sure they have lovely offices and they want people coming to those offices. But, and I, you know, I tend to agree partly with the depression part.

I myself work a lot from home because I have a very long commute. I think I used to be in the office three, four times a day, a week, sorry, before COVID and then COVID came and I was happily working from home and I have a nice place so everything's comfortable. But when I was getting back to the office once a week, I felt it actually made me feel happier, even though I was used to commute before COVID and now I'm not used to it anymore so I kind of...

Chad (40:25.98)

Mm.

Lieven (40:39.84)

I don't like it anymore. It's sitting in the car for two hours driving two hours back. It's a long time. I'm losing a lot of time and I hate it. But actually when I'm in the office, I'm happy. And I know I should go more, but it's just for me, it's just weighing being in the office, talking to my colleagues, having a good time or working efficiently at home and not losing so much time. You know, the part I'm struggling with with the Instagram thing is it's demanding from people to be there. It's making them be there.

JT (40:43.288)

Yeah.

JT (41:09.09)

Yeah. And five days. Yeah.

Lieven (41:09.384)

I think just use our common sense. Yeah, indeed. Tell people whenever you need to work, very concentrated work at home. And if you can work from the office, please work from the office. We would appreciate you being around us. Rika, example, our CEO, she's like a mother duck and she's happy with her ducklings around her. If everyone is working from home, she's just feeling lonely. She's at the office. So I think some people actually have good intentions asking people to come to the office.

But forcing them to be there, don't think it's a good way.

Chad (41:42.256)

I have a quick video that literally sums up everything that I have to say and she does it much faster than I can. So let's go ahead and let's go ahead and listen to Beth.

Chad (42:53.342)

Yeah, so I really feel like it's their opportunity. Again, it's kind of like indeed, it's the market. You have to do what we say or you're not going to get your job alerts, right? Same thing. You have to do what we say or you're not going to get a paycheck. So is there depression involved? There could be. Can you alleviate that? I see your little puppy in the background there, JT. I've got two that are around here. They're the best. Help.

JT (42:54.467)

Yeah.

JT (43:04.536)

Mm-hmm.

JT (43:18.382)

My little guys. 100%. He's amazing.

Chad (43:21.692)

for depression ever, right? And you sit down and you pet the pup. But I mean, it's one of those things where I think it's, and for the most part, it's total bullshit. And it's more about control than it is anything else. That's just, that's my thought. But it's culture, it's culture. If you're gonna go work for JPMorgan Chase, you know it's going to be iron fist. You know what you're in for, right? So don't bitch at me when you have to be

Lieven (43:37.855)

Yeah.

JT (43:40.929)

its culture.

Exactly.

Chad (43:51.811)

at JP Morgan Chase five days a week. Now, if you're an Instagram and they said, you know, you'll be able to work hybrid or home forever or what have you. And then next thing you know, it's back to this bullshit. That's, that's, that's a curve ball with regard to culture. What do you think, Cleveland?

Lieven (44:09.354)

totally agree. mean, company culture in those investment banking situations, I can imagine, but this totally conflicts with the whole image. Instagram wants to, they want to present themselves as a different kind of company, I guess. But behind the scenes, they're probably a company just like any other.

JT (44:34.124)

Yeah. And I just want to say Jamie Dimon's rant, I think really conceptualizes what a lot of CEOs are feeling right now, which is I want less employees, not more. So I'm going to institute command and control and I'm going to get my head count down because employees are expensive and unpredictable and unreliable. And so I'm hearing that same theme, return to office like it or not, don't care anymore.

won't have to pay unemployment, cut our staff, fill it with AI. mean, like literally this is how they're talking and openly, openly talking, you know?

Chad (45:04.368)

It's a layoff. Yeah. Yep. Totally get it. It's, it's a layoff instead of what it really, what they're saying it is, which is was returned to office. we, we have more social media to talk about. We'll be right back.

Chad (45:24.068)

Okay. So this next one comes directly from Melbourne, Australia, in the Associated Press. Social media platforms must report monthly how many children's accounts they close. They close once Australia begins enforcing its 16 year age limit next week. Facebook, Instagram, Kik, Reddit, Snapchat, threads, TikTok, X and YouTube will face fines up to...

50 million Australian dollars. That's 33 million USD from December 10th. If they fail to take reasonable steps to remove accounts of Australian children younger than 16 live streaming services like Twitch were added to the list of age restricted platforms less than a week ago, JT, how would your kids react? if they got kicked off of their social media accounts.

Lieven (46:18.496)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (46:21.906)

And do you think this is the responsibility of parents or the government?

JT (46:22.017)

Ahem.

JT (46:25.91)

Well, so fascinating because when I heard this, it brought me to a study and I'm mad that I couldn't locate it and share it with everyone. they basically studied children who were not given access to social media until they went to college. So parents who actually took it away, you know, I'm going to limit your screen time and do it like they had such an addiction issue and they had no coping skills in their 20s that they all what? Doomed scrolled and suffered in school.

Chad (46:39.025)

Okay.

Lieven (46:45.598)

Okay.

JT (46:55.17)

They had complete proof that the earlier you could teach them to self-regulate and understand this and figure it out, they would be able to control it better later. And so I think it's really interesting that as a government, they're planning to do this to all kids because, you know, not all kids are created the same. I think they are going to see some that probably appreciate it and understand the mental health issues. But I do think a byproduct of that is they're going to find ways around it or even worse when they finally get their hands on it.

Chad (47:03.666)

Mm-hmm.

JT (47:24.718)

It's like kids that first time they get to have a yes, yes. I think anytime it's just so severe like that, I worry about what it's going to do. But again, this study that I had seen before, it was faculty college, you get to college and you're on your own and you don't know how to use social media. Dang, now that's a problem.

Chad (47:27.1)

gonna consume them.

Chad (47:42.45)

What do you think, Leiven?

Lieven (47:46.336)

Normally I'm a liberal and I hate it when governments are restricting something, making something illegal. Even though it's for minors, I can imagine you don't sell tobacco or you don't sell a hard liquor to young people. But making something illegal is the last thing you should do. But in this case, I'm actually pro. I don't think it's a very good thing. I totally believe the brain rot is real. And I grew up in a world without social media.

I'm not 54 like, no, I'm not, what was it? 58 like Spotify things, but I'm 48. But I'm very happy when I was young that nobody was constantly chasing me with cameras and putting things on YouTube, cetera. I'm not against YouTube by the way. If you are young and drunk, you don't want someone filming it. In our time, we got away with it. So all the social media, it's creating stress for people. And I asked my two kids,

Chad (48:21.074)

Spotify?

Lieven (48:44.626)

How would you react on a band like this? And I was very surprised at first. said, we'd love it. They should do it immediately. And then I realized, okay, they're supposed to become 16 and two months and their sister was only 13. And that's why they thought, okay, but, they were just screwing her over. But I think the addiction is real. I, my kids are constantly, constantly, constantly watching the iPhone. They're moving around the house like a zombie watching their iPhone. We.

Chad (48:58.427)

Uh-huh.

JT (49:03.928)

You

Chad (49:13.074)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (49:13.472)

constantly talk about it, addicted. And then they say, no, I can quit whenever I want. That's the first, you're still, but the only thing I wonder is how are they going to make sure people are not just creating new accounts with an older age? How are we going to make sure they're not just using, let's say, a VPN to pretend they're somewhere else? My boy would hack the system in three minutes, I guess. So,

JT (49:38.242)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lieven (49:43.07)

You can make a role, but then you'll have to reinforce it. think Australia probably will reinforce it. They'll find a way. They're pretty hard. And I guess they will find those companies. they will do it. They won't just threat. But I wonder how they're going to do it. And I think Europe will watch it. Europe is pretty strict as well. So they will follow it. And I hope maybe it'll come to a good solution to protect our children from, from algorithms which were created by China, for example, and they don't have the best intentions for us.

So we'll see.

Chad (50:14.898)

I've got to say, there's one thing that Australia does is when they see something's hurting their population like guns, they take action, right? And you take a look at the gun laws in Australia where they had a mass shooting and they said, this shit's not happening anymore. We're going to protect our society, our citizens, right? Which is the exact reason governments exist, right? So I...

JT (50:22.188)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (50:40.735)

Yep.

Chad (50:41.106)

In that realm, I've got to give them a big applause. I do believe exactly what you're talking about, JT, with regard to, let's say for instance, the Amish doing the rum springa. I mean, you've got the summer where you can go out and get crazy and do whatever you want, but then you've got to come back home or you leave.

JT (51:01.24)

Yeah.

Chad (51:11.076)

And there's got to be some way to be able to give them an opportunity to kind of have a digital rum spring to some extent.

JT (51:14.146)

me on set.

Lieven (51:19.296)

Okay, that's a good idea actually.

JT (51:20.088)

And I just, I'll add one more thing. Believe it or not, social media is a skill and it's a skill that is going to be a skill you use in work for the rest of your life. So you're also talking about to some degree delaying their ability to, and if you think about some of most innovative people right now in the space, there are younger people, early adopters where a lot of this is intuitive and they're thinking about next gen ways of doing things. So we are also just saying to some degree slowing down their ability of understanding leveraging tech.

Chad (51:26.298)

yeah.

JT (51:49.422)

So, you know how I am with you like I would like to see some kind of solution that helps children and protects children I just I'm not sure being so strict is the way to go, but it'll be interesting

Chad (52:00.678)

I think Europe is going to find a way to kind of bring it back. They're not going to ban. don't think, I don't know, France is actually talking about testing a ban. you'll see France do that. And I think the rest of the EU will take a look at it and they'll kind of gauge from there. But I

JT (52:04.536)

Bridget.

Lieven (52:05.504)

Hmm.

Lieven (52:10.528)

Yeah, absolutely.

JT (52:19.523)

Hmm.

Chad (52:21.014)

This is the point right now where to be quite frank, social media companies do not care about bullying, shaming, catfishing, or anything that happens on their platforms. They only care about subscriber numbers and getting those kids hooked on the algorithm so that when they have access to money or they finally turn into adults, they spend their money on Instagram and TikTok shop. That being said, we're,

JT (52:31.522)

Yep.

Lieven (52:43.28)

Mm-hmm. That's a fact.

JT (52:46.312)

or they sell on Instagram or TikTok shop.

Chad (52:49.168)

Let's, let's, let's hope they can do that with the money that they earn. Right. They can, they can buy stuff after they've started to learn how to sell stuff.

JT (52:58.083)

there.

Chad (53:00.114)

And that being said, there's no dad joke this week, but what we do have, what we do have...

Lieven (53:07.616)

you

Chad (53:08.594)

Ha

Chad (53:24.578)

Excellent guys. Thanks again for joining and for Chad JT and Leiven. Come on. Let me hear it. We out

JT (53:32.662)

We out!