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Chatbot Queen Talks Whitespace

Quincy Valencia (aka Queen of the Chatbots) joins the menz to talk chatbots, programmatic and industry whitespace. Whitespace? WTF is WHITESPACE?

Gotta listen to find out...

And while you're listening school yourself on Text, email, programmatic+ with out friends from NEXXT


Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: Now, on today's Chad and Cheese, we have, once again, we've actually ran into Quincy Valencia. And you will remember, she is also known as queen of the Chatbots. Hello, Quincy.

Quincy Valencia: You mean, hello, your highness.

Chad: I mean, yes.

Quincy Valencia: Hello.

Chad: Sorry.

Quincy Valencia: Nice to be back.

Chad: Good to have.

Quincy Valencia: Good to be here.

Joel: Great interview that we did with Quincy not too long ago.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: It's been a while. It's a must listen for anyone who cares about Chatbots in our space.

Quincy Valencia: Well, I appreciate that. It was good. It was a lot of fun.

Joel: Was it?

Quincy Valencia: There's so much new and exciting-

Joel: So much fun.

Quincy Valencia: So many new and exciting things and the field.

Chad: It's hilarious because I've known Quincy for over 15 years and I haven't seen her smile this much.

Joel: And she is still talking to you, oddly enough.

Chad: Yeah, I know, right? That's because I keep sneaking back in.

Joel: Have you had a psychological evaluation at any point in the last-

Quincy Valencia: I refuse to disclose.

Joel: Okay. Good enough. Enough said.

Chad: So, let's go right into it. So, there was this little Chatbot in Canada.

Quincy Valencia: There was.

Chad: The porridge was kind of warm. So, you guys went for it?

Quincy Valencia: Yeah, we did.

Chad: Karen.

Quincy Valencia: Karen HR, Karen.AI out of Toronto was a great company. It was at the right space at the right time. As we at Alexander Mann are looking to expand upon the services and products that we offer in the industry, it was a perfect time. We were working with the Karen folks and some of our existing clients. And we thought, you know what? Now is a really good time to explore what else they have to offer that will help us augment and propel us into the next phase as an organization with Alexander Mann. So, really, really lucky to be working with those guys. Incredibly smart people. The co-founders, David Vradenberg, and Noel Webb, and a few of their other people came over and we couldn't be happier. It's a perfect fit. I'm really excited to see what we're doing with them now and what's going to be coming up soon.

Joel: So, Canadian means it's also French compatible.

Quincy Valencia: Sure.

Joel: Oui?

Chad: Oui. French Canadian, which is entirely different.

Joel: What is your title now?

Quincy Valencia: VP of product innovation.

Chad: VP of product-

Quincy Valencia: So, we're the cool kids. Everybody at AMS is cool.

Joel: That's why you have the ripped jeans on.

Quincy Valencia: That's right. I've ripped jeans, and boots, and tattoos showing right now.

Joel: Yep. Yep.

Quincy Valencia: That's the cool kid division. It's the prerequisite for working there.

Joel: You have the uniform.

Quincy Valencia: That's right. I do. It's true.

Chad: Okay, so the Chatbot thing, you dove deep into Chatbots for a while.

Quincy Valencia: Yep.

Chad: You were looking at every Chatbot you can find out there. But that's not your only jam.

Quincy Valencia: It's not.

Chad: Right? So, what is that jam? I know you love technology and you've loved technology forever. Right now, this is a very exciting time in our industry. What excites you more than a Chatbot?

Quincy Valencia: The white space, frankly. So, we're seeing it here.

Chad: What?

Quincy Valencia: All the white space.

Joel: That sounds racist.

Quincy Valencia: That's out there.

Chad: The white space. Why does it got to be white?

Quincy Valencia: Come on, man. No, there's so much space out there. There's so much innovation right now in our industry at large.

Chad: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: And great point solutions out there. If you want a point solution for automated sourcing, you can find it.

Chad: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: If you want a great solution for a programmatic, you can find it.

Joel: So, the white label space.

Quincy Valencia: Nope.

Joel: Oops.

Quincy Valencia: There are gaps. So, you have... point A to point B, there's a line between those two and there's nothing filling that line. And point B to point C, there are solutions for B and C but there's nothing filling that gap.

Joel: I was largely being sarcastic, but thanks for filling that in.

Quincy Valencia: I'm here for you.

Chad: So, you have stack technology, right? And then, you have gaps in the stacks.

Quincy Valencia: Right.

Chad: That's what you're saying.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah, that's it.

Chad: So, what do you do? And why do you buy all of this technology if there are all these God damn gaps?

Quincy Valencia: Well, you know what? That's a really good question. And part of that is I think there's a few things that we're seeing. So, our time working really from the operator side, and the recruitment side, and all the years that we've seen there, and then partnering with such great technologists out there and falling into the same trap, frankly.

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Quincy Valencia: As what everyone else falls into, which is, that looks really cool and can solve a problem, and that looks really cool and can solve a problem, and that looks really cool and can solve a problem, and there are markets for those things out there. But what's really missing in a lot of cases is that one cohesive engine that will take you from point A to point Z, which is the hire in our industry-

Chad: Okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Quincy Valencia: Without those gaps and without those breaks. Because some of the challenge... look, I'm a big proponent of everyone who's here today, and of what we do, and I buy these products, and we partner with these. So, it's not to denigrate them at all. There are places for that. But what we don't see is that one cohesive end to end solution. And, when you start Frankensteining pieces together, and one of those providers changes one piece of code, now you have a single point of failure. And often it looks very disjointed. So, if you look at a candidate experience, and you know from when we talked before, for me, candidate experience is everything, stakeholder experience in general is everything. And that's the lens you need to build everything through.

Quincy Valencia: And so, when you start jumping from one solution, to another solution, to another solution, if not done properly, and it's hard to do that properly, it becomes a poor experience where really all you're trying to do is make it better. And so, the white spaces and how do you fill in the spots in between each point solution. So, that's what's really exciting me these days.

Chad: So, aren't the ICIMs and the Jobvites of the world trying to get rid of those by buying Jibe, and Canvas, and then Telemetry? And I mean, aren't they trying to do that? Aren't they trying to be one system?

Quincy Valencia: Everyone is trying to do that one platform?

Joel: Are they going to achieve it though?

Quincy Valencia: Well, I don't know. I mean, I guess it's yet to be seen. But, when you look at all the different pieces, growth, and expansion, and penetration through acquisition is smart, in a lot of cases and really will acquire them more business. And they're really moving toward what it is that we're talking about today. But those platforms are still built on different code. And so, basically they're still kind of... it remains to be seen how successful they are in integrating that from an experience standpoint. I don't know.

Joel: Who do you give the best chance to be that one platform?

Quincy Valencia: Oh, this is such a loaded question. I don't know.

Chad: Is it an ATS?

Quincy Valencia: Well-

Chad: Is it an ERP? I mean, what's the company that's going to

be the core that they can build around that, this makes the most sense?

Quincy Valencia: I can't name which company it is. But I will tell you this, it has to be a company that will, whether they're building it themselves or whether they're building it through acquisition, has depth and breadth of knowledge and experience in the business of recruitment in people and in that, as opposed to only being technologists on the other end that may have seen a gap out there.

Chad: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: And an opportunity and they try and plug that in. I think that's one of the biggest things that's missing is that experience in recruitment in general and hearing and having access to and living day to day the frustrations that are out there in the marketplace. So, not just knowing it because everyone knows the data points, but really understanding it sort of viscerally.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Are we not giving the app marketplace enough credit here? Because shouldn't an ATS have a robust enough application or app store to where other solutions can build on top of theirs to create this one platform? So, whether it's Canvas or Text Recruit, whatever you choose, you just plug it into your ATS. Like I feel like we spend too much time on, they got to buy it, they got to build it. Like can't they just provide an environment where third parties can build these tools on their platform?

Quincy Valencia: The people who have the problems, the people who have the challenges in their recruitment programs are not necessarily the people who understand the vast technology marketplace that exists today. And so, if you just create a tech marketplace like ICIMs has, which I love ICIMs by the way. I think a company I used to work for was I think the 12th company to purchase and implement them.

Joel: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: So, again, props to them. But, if you're only having a marketplace for them and you're saying, well we've added them, but you've got 20 of them and there's no consultation behind that about what are you trying to accomplish as a business, as an organization?

Joel: Right.

Quincy Valencia: What are you missing today? What are you trying to accomplish with TA holistically, as opposed to you can plug in these point solutions, I don't know how successful that's going to be.

Joel: And I think there could be a marketplace rating system where people who use those apps say, this is fantastic. And you say, okay. Well, this one has a better review than the other one.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Joel: So, I don't know if you have to know every single text recruiting platform to just go in and say, okay, these two have five stars.

Chad: It's very Apple store-ish, right?

Joel: Yes.

Quincy Valencia: Yep. Totally agree with that. So, I love the idea of that pre-vetting.

Joel: Let the market decide. Or let the market... I mean-

Quincy Valencia: It's no different than buying something on Amazon. You're not going to buy something without a five star rating. Right? So, I totally get that.

Joel: Correct. And a thoughtful review and things like that.

Quincy Valencia: The problem with that approach is that you have operators, which is what you need to make these business decisions. And they can identify what they think the issues are in their market. And sometimes you have two issues, and this is why they hire consultants to help them with this. The marketplace is vast and the terminology is sometimes foreign. So, do I need a Chatbot? Do I need Programmatic? It's still, we go into clients it's, I need an AI. They don't exactly even know what that means.

Quincy Valencia: And so, it's not enough, in my opinion, to have a marketplace that has the best of the best, even if it's the cream of the crop, fully bedded of 50 different types of point solutions without any context around that to help guide those decisions of what those opportunities really are in their marketplace. Time and again you'll see somebody who says, we need sourcing. We need sourcing, sourcing, sourcing, sourcing. What can we do for sourcing? And you can add people, or you can do it programmatically, or you can do whatever you want. But, if the real problem is you don't have enough people downstream to do anything with those candidates that now you have a great pipeline for, you're actually creating a worse experience than what existed before. So, you really need to take a holistic view instead of just buying piece after piece.

Joel: The market needs to be forced.

Quincy Valencia: Really. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's true. I think there needs to be some consultation that goes along with that, rather than just looking at piece, after piece, after piece and not understanding how it's all going to fit together.

Joel: I'd still like to see an environment that I sort of just outlined. I think ATS has put up way too many barriers for companies and technologies to integrate into their systems.

Quincy Valencia: I agree.

Joel: Whether it's by write a check, or we'll get to you when we get to you, I think there's a hindrance to that one platform happening. And, if I were saying where would my money go, when we talk to startups, the one ATS that everyone is like, oh they're great to integrate with is Greenhouse.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah, it is.

Joel: So, if we're saying, who has the best chance of building an app store, platform environment? To me, like Greenhouse has as good a shot of anyone just for the fact that they actually do integrate easily.

Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Andy, if a company wants to actually come to Next and utilize your database and target texting candidates, I mean how does that actually work?

Andy Katz: Right, so we have the software to provide it two different ways. If an employer has their own database of opted in text messages, whether it's through their ATS, we can text on their behalf. Or we have over eight and a half million users that have opted into our text messaging at this point. So, we can use our own database. We could dissect it by, obviously, by geography, by function, any which way. And sometimes we'll even parse the resumes of the opted in people to target certifications. So, we really can dive really deep if they want to hone in on just give me the best hundred candidates that I want to text message with and have a conversation back and forth with, versus going and saying, I need 30,000 retail people across the country. And that's more of a, yes, no text messaging back and apply.

Chad: For more information, go to Remember that's next with the double X, not the triple X.

Chad: I don't think that answers the white space problem. The white space is still going to be there. But then, I go to Salesforce who has this huge app marketplace thing, right?

Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chad: And, I mean, they've actually created an entire industry of Salesforce consultants to be able to get those tied together. And I see where you're going and I like it. But I can see that also, with Salesforce, they still have a lot of white space. And they still need more people to come in to try to cover those gaps. So, I don't think that would be the answer to actually covering any of the gaps.

Quincy Valencia: Well, agreed. And so, that brings me back to the point that I said before. I mean, to your point, Joel, I think having that sort of market place is invaluable if you have a company that you trust, whether it be an ATS provider that you know and trust, whether it be an RPO provider. We have something called the Hive that's exactly what you're talking about.

Joel: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: Because of our experience there. And I think that can serve a great service. As an operator, if you don't truly have that guidance and consultation behind, you may think you need a Chatbot, but do you? What is it you think you're missing? What are you solving for? And, if you're only relying on individual vendors to provide that information to you, they know their product really, really well. They're going to pitch their product to you, and as they should.

Joel: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: It's what they should do. But I think you need to take a bird's eye view and see how, not just they're going to integrate technologically, but from an experience standpoint and what that end product will be for your candidates and for your recruiters and for your hiring managers. You have to look at it every stakeholder, not only candidate.

Chad: The experience itself, so the the candidate experience, the internal experience for a recruiter, or a hiring manager, or whatever, there's white space all over the place with that.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Chad: And I think there isn't going to be an easy answer to just plug in these apps or just pick these vendors. Right?

Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chad: I think we try to go that whole easy route and it has never worked. The problem is we need to understand that. We need to blow up our processes. And we need to start from the ground up and start building pretty much a new system overall, as opposed to trying to layer all these old systems on top.

Quincy Valencia: That's exactly what it is. So, you and I have talked about this before, Chad, where you come back to process, process, process all the time. And I actually agree with you on that because a lot of the problem that you have today-

Chad: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you say you, you agree?

Quincy Valencia: I did. You should ring a bell or something when you edit this, because this may be the only time. Mark this time in history. But I actually agree with you on that where a lot of the issue from plugging in a lot of the tools that we're talking about now is that they're really trying to replicate their existing experience and existing process just in an automated way. And you're really not improving anything really materially.

Quincy Valencia: And so, I would take it one step further from you. And I'd say experience, experience, experience because it incorporates more. You're looking, not just... typically when you're talking about a process, you're looking at it from the company point of view, and you want to add efficiency. And you can do that lots of ways, but you certainly want efficiency, your candidates want efficiency, your hiring managers want efficiency, but they want to feel good. They don't want to feel like crap and like they're being ditched and lost forever when they're going through a process.

Chad: Right.

Quincy Valencia: They want it to be engaging. They don't want to have to take two shots of whiskey before they start a process.

Chad: It does help.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah, I know. I've done it so. So, you really need to look at it all around in a-

Chad: In a prior job, of course.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. But you need to really look at, how are they going to fail when they go through. And that, to me, that's your primary lens always. And don't try and replicate your existing crappy processes that were built in 1902 because that's what your ATS... you built your process around an ATS that didn't fit your needs. And so, it's not going to work if you just try and recreate the thing. You're wasting your money. You're throwing money at a bad problem if you think that technology is going to fix that for you.

Joel: What other technologies are you currently bullish on?

Quincy Valencia: RPA, actually.

Joel: Oh.

Chad: Oh.

Quincy Valencia: I think a lot of people are... I know. The more I see and the more I've seen it actually applied in situations, I think it does... there are places where it can do exactly what it is the companies are setting out to do, which is efficiency, accuracy. It helps normally if you hired somebody to manually transfer 70,000 files from one system to another. Certainly opportunity for error is there, human error. It's not very fun. Chances of turnover are great. And you can actually do that in an automated way with a greater degree of accuracy without somebody wanting to kill themselves at the end of the day.

Quincy Valencia: And I think there's broader application than what we're even looking at it here. I think you're going to see an upturn there, I think, I expect too, and maybe unexpectedly. Because people are so focused on... it may not seem as sexy. It's like an automated process. It's the assembly line, but I think that

could have some real implications in our industry.

Chad: Yeah, but, in some cases, we look at Chatbots and everybody wants to say AI, right?

Quincy Valencia: Yeah. They don't know what it means.

Chad: But overall you're using these Chatbots, in some cases, really in an RPA manner. I mean, robot process automation. You are looking to really automate a process. If you're having a conversation with somebody about getting their data to build a profile in your system to make it more conversational, to make it just a better experience. It's not really AI as much as it is RPA. I understand AI can be behind the scenes. I understand that they can work together. There's no question. But it's like I don't think we talk enough about being able to do something that is sexy. I think process can be ugly as shit, but it can be sexy too.

Quincy Valencia: Well, that's the goal. I mean, that's what the goal should be. I think those of us who work in this industry have an obligation, frankly, to make sure that whatever it is that we're building, whatever it is that we're putting in place does have some sexy and sizzle to it. And not only that, not just the shiny squirrel, but... oh, I just mixed metaphors. Not just the shiny new thing, but really in a way that's meaningful.

Joel: There may be some shiny squirrels out there.

Quincy Valencia: And that's going to be-

Joel: Who knows.

Quincy Valencia: Probably. But, no. I think it's important that we are looking at it from that way. Otherwise we're all reinventing the same thing.

Joel: Are there any vendors that you see are standouts from the RPA side? When we talked to Max from Talkpush recently, he's-

Quincy Valencia: I love Max and I love Talkpush. So, that's actually it's a really good product.

Joel: Okay. So, we'll add them to the list.

Quincy Valencia: I think... yeah. I think that's definitely one to look at. It's hard to narrow. Here's what I've actually seen. There are some really good ones out there and everybody is good at something. I mean, I think I can say that almost universally.

Chad: Hence point solution. Right?

Quincy Valencia: Right. Hence point solution. But there's not a one size fits all. There's some exciting things going out there. We're seeing... this is not news, but we just saw a Paradox and Amazon partnering for a McDonald's solution. That's pretty exciting. I'm interested to see it in action and see how it works. But-

Joel: Well, they partnered with Amazon to the degree that they built an app.

Quincy Valencia: Right?

Joel: On Alexa.

Quincy Valencia: Exactly. But so, but I'm excited to see how that actually works.

Chad: That's a step.

Quincy Valencia: It is a step.

Chad: Yeah. Joel can't wait.

Joel: Find me a PHP job in Chicago.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Like I've been-

Chad: And get me a cheeseburger while you're at it.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Joel: Yeah. I've been having... so, yeah. Like if you look at data on search queries that are like Alexa, Google Home, Siri, et cetera, like the numbers of those are skyrocketing.

Quincy Valencia: They are.

Joel: So, when I look at where the puck is going, like are we in for a world of audio? Because, to me, if you own the time that someone brushes their teeth, and I'm being sort of silly here.

Quincy Valencia: It's true.

Joel: But, if you can own the time where I'm getting ready for work and I get my news from you, I get my weather report, like whatever I get, whatever content I want, if you can say it to me in audio fashion, do you win? Right? Because, if I go, Alexa, I need more Tide.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Joel: Right. In the old days, and I put that in quotes, in the old days.

Quincy Valencia: Three months ago.

Joel: In the really old days, I'd have to get in my car, go to the grocery store, the drug store, buy it, bring it home.

Quincy Valencia: Nobody wants to do that.

Joel: But now, in the old days, right, I'd have to go to the internet.

Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joel: Or I'd have to go to my phone, do a search for Tide, log in, whatever, and then click whatever.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Joel: If it gets to the point where I just go, Hey Alexa, I need more Tide, and it knows how much, and what kind, and it just ships it to me, is that the world we're going toward? And, if that is the world we're going toward, then having something that, hey, can you get me a job at McDonald's.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Joel: And it walks you through that.

Quincy Valencia: Yep. I think that's actually absolutely where we're going. And, if you look at the data on that type of solution, the artificially intelligent assistance or whatever you want to call them, I think it's the queries there are skyrocketing. Here's the caution, and again, I think it's really cool what they're doing now. But there's another provider, a well-known provider in the marketplace. And I won't say who it is because it's not important. But I was going through a process with one of their clients the other day just for market research and it took all of two questions for me to break their logic in their chat. And I wasn't trying to fool it. I wasn't trying to break it. I wasn't doing anything.

Chad: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: But it literally took two questions to break it. And I think that's some of what I'm talking about, Chad, when I mentioned I think we have an obligation to look, if we're going to provide these things, to make sure that we're not selling vaporware, to make sure that we're really vetting enough intents in the back end so that, if somebody is asking something, you know what it means.

Chad: Yes.

Quincy Valencia: The training data, you bring that from the right place and that you're programming it the right way. Because, otherwise, you can win every award in the industry, but, if it only takes the average Joe two questions to break your logic and all of a sudden it's broken, then what happens to that candidate? We're creating another black hole.

Joel: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: It's just a new kind of black hole.

Chad: That's a horrible experience. So vaporware, that is one of the things that we talked about all the time in the late '90s, early 2000's, because everybody was promising the fucking moon.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Chad: And it was really vaporware. I'm seeing the same things happening today.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Chad: Which many are. What's pissing you off the most? You don't have to say product. It'd be great if you did.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah, no. Nice try.

Chad: But what kind of product is actually pissing you off the most right now because really it's mainly just smoke and mirrors?

Quincy Valencia: I've got two.

Chad: Okay.

Quincy Valencia: And I'm not going to say they're pissing me, and I'm not going to name an individual product. I'm going to say a product type.

Chad: Okay, yeah.

Quincy Valencia: And I'm going to name these because... and I have to

caveat all this.

Chad: Yes.

Quincy Valencia: There are things that, to me, have the biggest potential.

Chad: Yes.

Quincy Valencia: And that I'm personally interested in and that we're really on the precipice of doing something great with these products.

Chad: You're excited about it, but they're fucking it up.

Quincy Valencia: Well, yeah. One being Chatbots.

Chad: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: And one being Programmatic.

Chad: Oh.

Joel: Explain.

Quincy Valencia: Well, so let's look at Programmatic. If you dig into it really, and all of the programmatic advertisers are buying traffic from the same exact places. And, if you don't really understand how it works and you're not really educated on where to go, and how to do, and how to adjust your campaigns, and all of those things, you're spending potentially more money than you were if you're just posting and praying of the old days. And I think that there's, in a lot of cases, not enough consultation with people who are spending money to buy it. It's being sold as a cure all. And it isn't. It's great when it works. But, if you don't know how to do it properly, you're wasting money. And I'm all about eliminating waste in the process. So, that's the first one, I think.

Quincy Valencia: The second is Chatbots. And it's for the exact reason that I said. You've got to do better than. You cannot launch a product and put it into the market if two questions are going to break your logic. You do.

Joel: To me, it reminds me a lot of say search back in '99 or 2000, right? You would do searches on AltaVista or Excite.

Quincy Valencia: Right.

Joel: Five out of the ten results were pretty stupid.

Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joel: But you knew eventually this is going to be a thing. Like they're going to figure this out.

Quincy Valencia: Yep.

Joel: They're going to do it right. Of course, it took Google to sort of show up to do it right. But I never thought that search was not going to eventually be a thing. So, I think what I'm hearing from you is today it's disappointing. There are mistakes being made and things that they miss. But I'm not hearing that Chatbots don't have a long term future and that they're going to figure some of this stuff out. Right?

Quincy Valencia: Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I think that's where, when you've dubbed me queen of Chatbots, I take that as quite the honor because I've had so many conversations over the years of people saying, oh, it's a point solution. It's not a product. And that's true. I think that's true now. I think that we're seeing it go more and more toward something that can be a full service solution. And that really excites me. It's just got to be better.

Quincy Valencia: And look, to give credit where credit is due, thank God for the pioneers and people who have gone out and taken the risks and had a great deal of success there. I just think there's a lot of room. Because, in order to get that full service solution that we're talking about, you have to have more elegance and eloquence in what you're delivering, as opposed to just your simple FAQ up front or let's ask some pre-screen questions and then take you into the ATS ask.

Chad: It's the expectations of the day. It's the expectations of the day that, back in the day, Joel was talking about AltaVista and whatnot.

Quincy Valencia: And so many of your listeners right now are going, what? Because they're only 25.

Joel: I'm old.

Quincy Valencia: Me too.

Chad: So, back then it was kind of like, oh, this is new. Oh, yeah. It's kind of broken. Yeah. You kind of expect that. Right. Today the expectation is the shit is going to work.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Chad: So, it's-

Joel: I don't know if that's true if it's a new technology though.

Chad: No, I think a user coming to your-

Joel: Go shopping, like we should have figured out shopping online by now. But I don't know if they look at Chatbots and think, oh this should be out of the box work.

Quincy Valencia: No. I think that's untrue. I think, if I'm a candidate and I'm applying for a job, and if the mechanism I have to communicate with the company is a bot.

Joel: The expectation is, this shit should work.

Quincy Valencia: This shit should work.

Joel: 100%.

Quincy Valencia: Oh, I just went off brand. I'm sorry. I'm going to get yelled at for that.

Joel: We do it to people all the time.

Quincy Valencia: I know. Man.

Joel: Don't be mad.

Chad: Oh, we sucker them out of it every time.

Joel: I'm just more forgiving than you guys.

Chad: Yeah, no. You are. You're a sweetheart.

Joel: I'm a loving human being.

Chad: Everybody says it. No, I agree though. I think the experience that the expectation with technology the way it is today that shit isn't broken. You expect a better experience.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah. No, and then I say that and I'll back off a little bit. Things aren't, from this side, sitting in this chair.

Chad: Yeah.

Quincy Valencia: I think we get it.

Chad: You've got a great chair to sit in.

Quincy Valencia: We understand. It is comfy here. Things are, you're going to have issues and you're going to have problems. And honestly, that's how your system learns. It's how you make it better. But you better learn quick.

Joel: Yeah, I mean, so the mantra at Facebook always used to

be, move fast and break things.

Quincy Valencia: Yeah.

Joel: So, it was like, get it out there. See if it works or not. What can we fix, iterate, iterate, iterate.

Quincy Valencia: Well, that's the whole Agile methodology.

Joel: And this was before the whole privacy stuff that they

have dealt with.

Quincy Valencia: They choose not to talk about that. Mm-hmm (affirmative).


Chad: It's also a free product.

Joel: But I don't personally... yeah. Maybe my consumer behavior is different, but I don't necessarily think when I look at new technology that it should just work instantly.

Quincy Valencia: I do.

Joel: I'm okay with a few fuck-ups with a Chatbot.

Quincy Valencia: Okay, that's fair.

Joel: Versus my resume in a black hole. Would we agree with that?

Quincy Valencia: All right, yes. That's fair. I'll give you that.

Chad: That doesn't mean your resume still isn't going into a black hole, by the way.

Quincy Valencia: That's my point. If it's all of a sudden you're in a chat conversation and you're having this conversation and you're two questions in. And you're getting excited and you ask a really simple question and you're stuck in the, I'm sorry, I don't understand loop. Or it answers a question that you didn't ask and, when you rephrase it three times, it's not answering it, you're back in a new black... it's the same black hole. It's just a different black hole.

Joel: Is it a blacker whole than we've been used to? Or is it sort of a dark gray?

Quincy Valencia: Nope. It's still a black hole. It's just a different hole.

Joel: Is it as deep as the black hole that we've always known?

Quincy Valencia: I don't think we can measure a black holes, can we?

Chad: Get out of the God damn hole. I don't think we can today. Density, I think it's density.

Quincy Valencia: I don't know.

Joel: All right. The paradox people are here.

Quincy Valencia: I'm just saying we have to continue to strive to get better. And, no. The whole concept of Agile development and Agile methodology is you put it out there, you move quick, you fix quick. And I think that's the right way to go. But you better make sure the first thing you're putting out there is at least decent.

Joel: I'm out of nuts.

Quincy Valencia: That's what I read on the bathroom wall.

Joel: Right.

Chad: Well, Quincy, thanks again for joining us. I'm sorry-

Joel: Always a pleasure, Quincy.

Chad: Queen of the Chatbot.

Quincy Valencia: I prefer your highness.

Chad: Your Highness.

Quincy Valencia: Thank you. Always a pleasure to join you. Thanks for the opportunity.

Joel: Let's do it again soon.

Chad: Let's do it again.

Quincy Valencia: Let's do it maybe tomorrow morning. I think that'll be great.

Joel: Yeah. I like it.

Chad: We'll do it tomorrow morning.

Joel: Let's do that, tomorrow morning.

Chad: Death match.

Joel: Death match.

Quincy Valencia: All right. Thanks guys. I'm excited.

Joel: Thanks, Quincy.

Chad: We're out.

Outro: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit Oh yeah, you're welcome.

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