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Neuvoo's Sexual Chocolate Moment

It's like a damned variety show during this podcast, recorded LIVE from a posh Dallas Hotel lobby, where The Chad & Cheese talk:

- Neuvoo's got Talent!

- Craigslist joins us 2019

- Disney shows what real BRAND means

- Pay Equity = Starbucks

- and Is the job market really that good?

All of this podcasting goodness couldn't be possible without the love, care, and affection of Sovren, JobAdX, and Canvas.


Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Joel: Oh yeah. Recording today from the Big D, that's Dallas in case you didn't know. It's a super hydrated episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.

Joel: On this week's show, Neuvoo embraces its inner sexual chocolate. That's boy's got talent.

Chad: Talent.

Joel: Some people will get that. Chipotle knows when employees have been over-served, and Craigslist finally realizes it's 2019. Grab a cup of Joe and get caffeinated. We'll be right back after we pay a few bills.

Chad: It's new mark time.

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Joel: And we're back.

Chad: And we're back. Okay, so as we sit here in this posh Renaissance Hotel-

Joel: Lovely weather yesterday when we got here in Dallas. Very lovely. Little cooler today.

Chad: It is a little cooler. Still much nicer than it is back in home land of Indiana.

Joel: We've kind of tripped out this year. This is our final leg of the Chad and Cheese tour.

Chad: Yep.

Joel: And I'm ready for a break. I don't know about you.

Chad: I'm ready for a break. I'm definitely ready for a break.

Joel: It's been a busy year, for sure.

Chad: Yeah, Julie's ready for a break. Everybody's ready for a break.

Joel: I know I look about eight years older than when we started this tour, and my liver looks about 50 years older than when we first started this tour. But

god damn it, we're having fun.

Chad: We're having a great time.

Joel: Let's get to shout outs.

Chad: Shout outs. First shout out goes to, you might know her, Julie


Joel: I've heard of her, yeah.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's my badass wife who just served on a panel presenting at the United Nations earlier this week.

Joel: Little organization some people know.

Chad: You might have known. You might have heard of it.

Joel: Little startup.

Chad: The focus was ongoing challenges and opportunities for employers and talented job seekers with disabilities. It was the international day of people with disabilities or something like that.

Joel: Sure.

Chad: And so the United Nations, they do this every year. Yeah, she had a blast. It was a good time.

Joel: Now was she lobbying for a certain thing? Was it just an FYI for the governments of the world? What was the purpose?

Chad: Listening to experts, right? Asking experts questions. So yeah. I mean, they were really focused on just trying to get as much information in short amount of time. I think they're on for an hour. It was really good.

Joel: Now she was not wearing a Chad and Cheese t-shirt.

Chad: I know.

Joel: I know there was no chance that was going to happen. But was there some conversation about, "Hey, babe-"

Chad: No.

Joel: ... "Have you thought about-"

Chad: No.

Joel: No. Okay.

Chad: The whole focus was her new Brooks' Brothers suit.

Joel: Oh, did she go shopping?

Chad: Oh yeah. She went shopping.

Joel: And I know her hair, she had the curls rocking.

Chad: Oh, dude-

Joel: She had the whole look going.

Chad: She had the new hair, new suit. All the way through. She was rocking the entire thing.

Joel: Well, she did the Sowash family proud.

Chad: She did.

Joel: I know that was a big moment for everybody.

Chad: It was.

Joel: So that's very cool.

Chad: It was.

Joel: Well, I'm going to go to my first shout out in a totally different direction. KFC, purveyors of fine fried chicken meals, has brought back the Yule Log.

Chad: The Yule Log.

Joel: You may remember this from last year. You throw a log on the fire, you fire it up, and it smells like fried chicken all up in your house or your fire pit in the backyard. So I'm going to go from the UN to the KFC Yule Log in my shout outs.

Chad: That is pretty nice. I'm going to go... I'm going to throw this in there. I almost forgot about this. Since Julie's looking so good, Hyde Closet. Kennedy actually works at this new startup called Hyde Closet.

Joel: Is that H-I-D-E or H-Y.

Chad: H-Y-D-E. Kind of like Jekyll and Hyde. So she's working for this startup called Hyde Closet where there are so many of these female box in the mail kind of get clothes things.

Joel: Yeah, Birch Box.

Chad: This is for a dude. So trying to make me look better than wearing t-shirts and hoodies all the time, which I enjoy, don't get me wrong. Yeah, so Hyde Closet is going to be fashioning me. Kennedy is actually doing it because she's one of the fashion people.

Joel: Is she your fashion consultant through this company?

Chad: I'm going to get a box so that when we're doing the Chad and

Cheese holiday part, I'm going to be decked out in Hyde Closet stuff.

Joel: Oh, damn.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Do you think she can help me, or am I a lost cause at this point?

Chad: Yeah, we might be able to have that conversation.

Joel: So little known fact about me, my wife got me Birch Box a couple years ago. So I get the monthly mail, feel good, look good, lotions, scented oils. Yeah, I get all lubed up once a month.

Chad: Put the lotions in the basket.

Joel: Yeah. The face cleanser. But yeah, so little known fact about me, this doesn't just happen as I'm pointing at my face overnight. It takes a lot of work to make this thing look all right.

Joel: I'm going to shout out to chat bots. We talk a lot about them on the show. Facebook did them over the holidays in a whole new way. So story came out this week that Facebook created a chat bot for its employees to I guess deflect criticism or play damage control with the relatives during the holidays. So I guess if Aunt Suzie says, "What the hell's up at Facebook? You're tracking everything I do." You can go to the friendly Facebook chat bot-

Chad: You can excuse yourself. Go to the bathroom, then come back.

Joel: And then you have a direct statement. So it's sort of like a little PR consultant in your pocket for Facebook. So it's kind of a sad state of affairs that Facebook has to create a chat bot for its employees to deflect criticism during the holidays. But that deserves a shout out in my book.

Chad: That does. That does. And I'm going to stick with the chat bots here for a second. Shout out to Max and Pia over at Talkpush it real good.

Joel: Yeah. I'm still waiting for my t-shirt.

Chad: They sent me some Talkpush gear, and one of the shirts, funny as hell. It says, "I like big bots," and you can finish the rest, "And I cannot lie."

Joel: And I cannot lie.

Chad: Yeah. Yeah.

Joel: Everyone kind of leans on that Sir Mix-a-lot word of wisdom from the '90s.

Chad: Yeah. It's good. Very good.

Joel: I'm going to keep it with big companies here. Amazon in the news this week as well. So people know Amazon, small time employer or commerce. Companies can put products on Amazon and sell through Amazon. So I assume there's some quality control, right? You can't just sell anything, right?

Chad: Apparently not.

Joel: No, recently... I shouldn't laugh because it's horrible. But an Auschwitz Christmas ornament made its way onto the Amazon store.

Chad: How the fuck does that happen?

Joel: And it's basically a photograph of Auschwitz, the concentration camp, from World War II-

Chad: How's that happen?

Joel: ... on a Christmas ornament. Yeah. I'm not sure how that got through, but it did. So negative shout out to Amazon. For a company that does so many things so well, they do so many things poorly.

Joel: Just to see you, right?

Chad: Well and see Julie, do some stuff with Julie too. So had some listener time with Kyle, and I love it.

Joel: Where'd you take him?

Chad: Took him downtown to Henry Social Club, which is one of those high end dinner places. And then around the corner to a dive bar. So we went to the Columbus Bar.

Joel: A little context, downtown Columbus, for those that don't know, is, what? Three blocks of buildings?

Chad: Yeah. I'd say-

Joel: Kind of. And I've never heard of this place. Is it a speakeasy secret knock on the door kind of thing?

Chad: Kind of, sort of. It has that kind of feel. But it's like this really artsy, cool, great food. The chef is from Maine. I mean, it's really good stuff.

Joel: So no 450 for Kyle?

Chad: No, no. He didn't get it this time just because he was staying downtown, and it was an easy walk for him. So it made sense.

Joel: Is he still in Chicago?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Okay. Well, that's nice. He could've come to see me, made a little pit stop in Indianapolis. But I guess not.

Chad: He could've.

Joel: Thanks, Kyle.

Chad: That's because I can get his name right.

Joel: Thanks, Kip.

Joel: Shout out to Craig Fisher.

Chad: Craig Fisher.

Joel: Great guy overall. He's putting on the TalentNet Live conference here that we're doing today. He's celebrating his 10th year doing this conference.

Chad: Crazy, man.

Joel: Conferences aren't easy. I've never put on one for good reason. You used to sort of be intricate in conferences. So the fact that he's been able to pull this off is really nice, and according to his comment from last night's happy hour was he's oozing sponsors. So he's raking in the dough, and he's educating the masses here in Texas. So shout out to you Craig Fisher.

Chad: That's all you can ask for. And the man has a full time job for god sakes, and he's still putting this thing on.

Joel: Yes.

Chad: Shout out to Recruitics who created a series of lists. So they understand that we're suckers for lists.

Joel: Yeah. The year-end lists are going to come in hard and fast.

Chad: So this one, we made the must listen to podcast list. So just a

shout out to Recruitics. Yes, we took the bait, and-

Joel: And we're talking about you. Yeah.

Chad: Thanks for the love. Thanks for the love, Recruitics.

Joel: Nice job, Recruitics.

Chad: Thanks, Ryan, Mona, and all you wonderful people over there.

Joel: KRT is having an impact.

Chad: This the KRT influence.

Joel: Yeah. Is Christoi in there somewhere? Did he do something this week?

Chad: He just shares stuff.

Joel: He's reeling this morning because... Well, his Bears beat the Cowboys. So he's not reeling, he's actually probably hungover.

Chad: Yeah. He's probably still sleeping at this point.

Joel: Good on you, Bears fans.

Chad: My last shout out goes to Tim Meehan and Pontoon Solutions who created a little video bashing talent pool. And we're getting into this whole the funnel. We had Adam Gordon with the penis funnel. Now we've got the infinity loop. Now we've got bashing of the talent pools and promoting talent rivers. Let me set this video up.

Joel: Yeah, paint this picture for our listeners because it's-

Chad: In the video, there's this lady, and she's reporting close to a waterfall or some kind of water source.

Joel: A storm of some sort.

Chad: I think it's like water source. I have no clue whatsoever. But a fish jumps out and slaps her in the face. And then you see it repeatedly with the words over top of it, "When you're still using the term talent pool," followed by "Find out what a talent river is." Now it's funny because watching anybody get slapped in the face with a fish, that's just funny.

Joel: Yes. And if you're familiar with the new wave of '80s tunes, you'll know New Order's Blue Monday and sort of the beat to that. And it's overlaid with this fish hitting this woman repeatedly in the face on an infinite loop. So yeah, I guess is that on YouTube? Can our listeners check that out?

Chad: I would go to LinkedIn, look on the Pontoon Solutions on LinkedIn. It's in that feed.

Joel: Pontoon Solutions on LinkedIn.

Chad: Yeah. Either one. But yeah, that shit was funny, and again, I hate all the fucking terms that were coming up with. It's like well, we don't need to funnels. We don't need this. But this is funny shit.

Joel: Job branding, not employer branding.

Chad: Yeah. Job brand.

Joel: We'll get into that today I think.

Chad: What the fuck?

Joel: But if a fish is involved and it's hitting some woman in the face-

Chad: I'm in.

Joel: We're in.

Chad: I'm in.

Joel: We're in. All right. I'm done with shout outs I think.

Chad: Topics.

Joel: Let's get to the news.

Chad: Topics.

Joel: All right. Top of the news, you broke it. The Shred, if you're not subscribed, you need to be. Neuvoo is in the news.

Chad: It's about damn time. Neuvoo, actually, they go to the bank. They go to the bank. They get $1.8 million Canadian.

Joel: Yeah, they go to Beemo.

Chad: And they get about $1.8 million Canadian. So it's about $1.3 in the US, right?

Joel: They got paid, yeah.

Chad: And they buy Now I didn't know that the domain was even available for god's sake, for sale. I guess everything's available for sale.

Joel: Everything's for sale. Yeah.

Chad: But $1.8 million. I asked Lucas Martinez over there if he'd give me a quote. He said, "We've been planting seeds all over the world for nearly 10 years, reaching 70 million monthly visits. It's now time for us to become more visible for starting branding activities," which I love. " is the first step toward our goal to become the number one job board in the planet within two years." That's a big statement.

Joel: So they revealed what they paid for the domain. $1.8 million.

Chad: Yeah, Canadian.

Joel: They're transparent on numbers. The first I had heard of Neuvoo or Talent, I guess that's what we'll call them now, was our buddy Michael O'Dell was at I want to say HR Tech. And he pulled me over aside and showed me something. It was a third party metrics tool. And at the time, Neuvoo had overtaken Career Builder in terms of traffic in North America.

Chad: And O'Dell's an old career builder guy. So that's like a feather in the cap right there.

Joel: Yeah. For sure. For sure. So that was sort of my first, "Okay. It's time to pay attention to these guys." And certainly getting O'Dell here in the North America and growing the company, the money that they got investment wise, the new brand. Obviously this is a company to beyond watch going into 2020.

Chad: When you start to see companies bring in top notch talent like an O'Dell who has that kind of background, that's when you're like, "So now they're getting serious." Because you know that dude's not cheap, right? I mean, and he shouldn't be.

Joel: He drinks cheap beer, but that's a different story.

Chad: But I also have to say Sarah Holden over there. She's a listener out of Canada. She messaged us. She said, "This was great, guys. I made my whole family listen so that they could understand." I'm talking The Shred. The Shred that we put out. It's hilarious because you've got to get energized when you feel like you're getting that momentum, and then you make a move like this. It was like back in the day with the Monster board and OCC. When those combined to create and buy the brand and all that stuff, there was something that was there and you knew something was happening. We'll see if it does. No predictions. But yeah, if you're working at Neuvoo now, I think they're transitioning. It's going to take about six months.

Joel: Yeah. They've got a pretty aggressive growth strategy for sure.

Chad: Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. Two years looking to have that kind of growth is amazing.

Joel: Yeah. And we've talked about on the show quite a few times, Indeed not necessarily dropping the ball in some of those ways. But people being unhappy with their practices and their direction. And there's nothing wrong with alternatives. And Indeed has done a good job of gobbling up a lot of those alternatives. So Neuvoo/Talent is in a really good position to be that Pepsi to Indeed's Coke at the moment.

Chad: Really there isn't that much competition for Indeed at all right now. There's a huge gap between one and two. So to be able to gobble that gap up, there's nothing but blue ocean for them.

Joel: Sure.

Chad: I mean, seriously, they got out and they win.

Joel: Sure. Could they be a tenth of the size of Indeed? Sure. Could they be 20% of Indeed? Sure. That's a very healthy company.

Chad: Yeah, it is.

Joel: So good luck to them. I will say that one of my thoughts was to the average job seeker, do you think Talent... We live it every day. But if you're an average Joe, does Talent say to you job site?

Chad: Well, just like Indeed. Does Indeed say job site? It all has to come back to-

Joel: Zip Recruiter says nothing about searching for a job.

Chad: It has to be something that it's easy to say and spell. Neuvoo is not. I mean, Indeed is, Monster is, Career Builder. I mean, two words that you can spell.

Joel: That was my attempt at being critical about the move. But it's really hard to be critical. It's one of the best branding, re-branding campaigns that we've seen.

Chad: As I've said, there are so many companies that are pissed off at Indeed right now. But they are sticking with them because they feel like they have to. They're looking for alternatives. They're looking to diversify. I mean, again, this is another great opportunity for now to get out there and say, "Let's talk about... We don't want your entire Indeed spend, give us half of it."

Joel: And sounds like you've been around for 20 years. Neuvoo sounds like, "Oh, this crazy ass startup out in Canada." So over night, they have just become an established 20 year company.

Chad: Dig it. I fucking dig it.

Joel: Well, good for you. Guys, we'll be watching and hopefully reporting on many things you guys are doing in 2020.

Chad: Yes. And there's another name that-

Joel: Another old timey name.

Chad: Is doing some really cool stuff if it was happening in 2008. But they're doing in 2019.

Joel: Or in 1998. I guess, not '98. So the iPhone came out in '07. So they're only, what? 12 years late to the party? So Craigslist-

Chad: Who makes a shit ton of cash.

Joel: Let's be honest, we probably don't pay enough attention to Craigslist. They've done everything right. They're a billion dollar company according to Aim Group recent study. They've said you're not putting our jobs on Indeed. They've said you're not putting our jobs in Google for jobs. They've been steadfast on all that. In the course of that, they've made a billion dollar business. Now they've been-

Chad: With like 50 people, right?

Joel: Oh yeah. It's just a cash cow. But it's been amazing to see apps like Let Go or apps that tackle that people can hire folks to do what they already advertise on Craigslist. So this week, Craigslist finally launched a native IOS app. I've downloaded it. It's pretty much like the site Craigslist. Now it is a little bit more visual. The pictures that are on postings are a little bit more obvious than they would be on the site, which is very text heavy. You don't see any images until you click on the listings. They have a link to get the beta version in Android, and me being the IOS guy of the couple here, I think it's right that I should be talking about this. It became the second most popular shopping app on iPhone in the first week that it was launched. So Craigslist definitely not a first mover in any of these things. But it's probably not too late in the fact that they still have a brand that people will go and download it says a lot about them. And we probably don't give them enough props for what they've done over the last 20-some years.

Chad: Yeah. Well, I mean, not to mention on Cyber Monday, $3 billion were spent via mobile phone. Right?

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: And just trying to be more mobile friendly, whether it's an app or your site, whatever it is. I mean, we've always talked about the shift from desktop to mobile. What we're doing now, podcast, that is more people listen on their mobile phone than they do on a desktop.

Joel: Yes.

Chad: I mean, we're making that move. We're being more mobile. And to have a company like Craigslist who really didn't have to because they're making shit tons of cash in this.

Joel: Their site is mobile friendly. So it's not like they've had this pinch and squeeze site for the last 10-12 years. But they've had to see the growth of mobile traffic to Craigslist, and it just became undeniable that we have to be native on these platforms. So better late than never, Craig.

Chad: Good job, Craig.

Joel: That's right. It's hard like all the money, piles of money to sort of see what's going on.

Chad: It's hard to see over it.

Joel: All that cash flow that just comes in.

Chad: It's hard to see over. Yeah. I think they're just doing it all on bear bonds right now.

Joel: Life is tough. Life is tough.

Chad: It is.

Joel: All right. Let's take a break, pay some bills, try to get some Craigslist money if possible.

Chad: Come back and do a little Disney magic.

Joel: Yeah. We're going to get all warm and fuzzy when we come back.

Chad: We can't wait.

Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting That's We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner.

Chad: And we're back.

Joel: We are back, and you are still a little teary eyed over this Disney documentary employee branding video. What's going on with that?

Chad: So we were turned onto this by a tweet from Adam Giffi. That's his name. G-I-F-F-I. So Giffi. So here's the tweet. "This week in recruitment, I paid Disney," and he means by Disney+, "To watch a one hour recruiting video and liked it. Meanwhile, in talent acquisition world of most every other company, it's hard to get people to click on a 30 second job ad." And he's fucking right.

Joel: Now who is this Mr. Giffi? Is he a-

Chad: First time I ever heard of him. But he's obviously legit. He's part of some Forbes group. He's like 12 years old. I mean, he's a young kid. But yeah, apparently he listens to the podcast. So Adam, thanks for the shout out. And also I never would have seen this or even paid attention to it-

Joel: You have to have Disney+, right?

Chad: Oh I do, yeah. I actually watched a portion of it this morning, the actual... It's an hour documentary. It is just like you would assume anything that Disney does, it is highly polished.

Joel: It's sort of a day in the life of multiple employees across the company. It's built as a documentary and not a come work at Disney video, which I think is really smart and more companies should do that. I only watch the trailer. I'll watch the documentary when I get a chance. But I'm still watching the Mandalorian or whatever.

Chad: Oh yeah. The Mandalorian. Oh, that's so awesome.

Joel: Which is dope. Yeah, Baby Yoda's got me all transfixed. I don't know what is going on with that. But the trailer alone, about a minute and a half had me a little chocked up because it's like employees tearing up and bringing magic to little kids. It's a great video for sure.

Chad: This is what a cult brand is. Through and through. We talk about employer brand. We talk about all these different fucking job brand or all these different... No. That is not what they're doing here. This is holistically who Disney is. This is not their employer brand. This is who they fucking are.

Joel: And what greater recruiting tool is it than bring magic to the world?

Chad: It is amazing, dude. And for any company to say, "Well, they're Disney," yes. No, they are Disney. The thing is you need to find your inner fucking Disney. That's all there is to it. You got to find it, and you make people passionate about what you do. If you're not passionate about it and you're in talent acquisition, you should probably find another job.

Joel: Create an emotional response that's hopefully positive.

Chad: So an hour, an hour documentary. Not a 30 second ad, an hour documentary. In their tweet, Disney's tweet says, "It's not just another day. It's one day at Disney. And then tomorrow, start streaming the original documentary to see what it's like to work at the most magical company." Again, they're not trying to say, "Hey, we're a great company. Come work for us." This resonates who works with anybody who is watching Disney+, buying Disney gear. I mean, this is a holistic brand. This is what a cult brand does.

Joel: And I couldn't help but think about the recent sort of Amazon damage control employee ads that they're running right now, and not that those aren't real employees that really do like working at the company. But there was such a fabrication to that versus an organic feeling of these employees at Disney and their stories behind the company.

Chad: It's kind of like Bloomberg right now spending $30 million to try to compete. It's the same kind of thing. Bezos knows that he has a fucking problem. So what's he's going to do? He's going to try to paint over it with a lot of money.

Joel: Sure, and a lot of people will be moved to work for Amazon or think it's a great company. I'm sure it is to many people. Amazon does a lot of great things. A lot of people probably love working there. We hear about a lot of negative stories. But that video versus the Disney thing to me was very different from that perspective. And Amazon has the money to compete with sort of the quality and the touchy feely that Disney production does.

Chad: They do, but they have to make sure that they have a magical place to work. And that's not what we're hearing. Haptic watches and pissing in garbage cans does not make anything magical. So they've got to fix those things before they can do anything like... It has to be real. It has to be authentic.

Joel: Ultimately the robots will come in and there won't be any people

employed at Amazon. Disney will never be able to do that.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Disney will never be able to have robot Cinderellas create the same emotional connection.

Chad: They have the animatronic presidents in there. So I don't know.

Joel: They do, yes. But those are different than the women in princess outfits and Pluto in a whatever costume and all that good stuff.

Chad: Do you think those companies... Do you think that that type of workforce, even like an Amazon... There's a story that you shared out about daily paychecks. Do you think that those are the types of individuals who would like to... At the end of the day, they clock out or what have you. They have that money in their account. This is something we've heard apps doing. We've heard marketplace apps and those types of things doing, right?

Joel: Sure. As a benefit, do the job that day, get paid that day. And this is in the service industry, this is pretty common.

Chad: But there's a survey that says-

Joel: There's a survey.

Chad: That says on the contrary.

Joel: Yup. So this came out this week. So findings from a recent study indicate that 42% of employees do not want to receive a daily paycheck. Sandeep Rathore wrote in this article, "Despite many beliefs to the contrary, the results indicate there's a disparity between daily income and monthly expenses as most respondents, 'believe they would struggle financially if they were paid daily.'" Clearly people are not very disciplined in getting cash now.

Chad: And they know they're not.

Joel: And saving it for the mortgage or rent or car payment 30 days from now.

Chad: And they know they're not. Yeah, 42% of employees know. I was blown away that 10% of employees still get paid once a month.

Joel: Yeah. My wife is there. She gets paid once a month.

Chad: That's on the other end. I mean, so you have the 10% of the population getting paid once a month, and then you have now this perspective shift. Something that was also said was pretty much people are afraid that they're going to spend it faster, which is not-

Joel: Probably will.

Chad: Which is not bad for the economy, but unfortunately the economy and the jobs numbers came out today. Big jobs numbers.

Joel: Huge number. I mean, this was big news. The estimate for the jobs report created was blown out of the water from what the estimates were. I don't have them in front of me. But the good times continue to roll. Unemployment sticks at 3.5% I think. There's no recession in sight. Everything is good.

Chad: Knock on wood.

Joel: Now we have reports of all the jobs that are being created aren't necessarily great jobs. But they are jobs. So a lot of the gig economy, the do the job, get paid, I'm an Uber driver. I think they pay pretty quickly after you drive folks around.

Chad: That is a problem. There are a lot of jobs being created. The problem is, and there's another report that actually just came out. It's called Understanding The US Economy Lots of Rotten Jobs. So when US unemployment is at a 50 year low, why do so many people have trouble finding work with a decent pay and adequate and predictable hours? So they came up with a new indicator called the Job Quality Index. And what this is pretty much saying is the jobs that are being created are shit jobs. And that what we've seen in the last three decades is that when we started losing manufacturing jobs, that's when the job quality started to decline.

Chad: Now along with that, and this is kind of like a side bar, but it's important. Along with that, the unions also started to dwindle. As manufacturing did, so did... What were the unions there for? They were there to protect the workers. Now we have all these issues, Amazon, Lyft, Uber, so on and so forth with no representation.

Joel: Yeah, and these companies are adamant about squashing unions or unionization.

Chad: They want to be able to do what they want whether they believe it's equal and/or fair. They don't give a fuck about the worker to an extent. And I'm not saying everybody. But what I'm saying is from an Amazon standpoint, they don't want a union to come in because they don't want those people to have representation.

Joel: No doubt. The whole Uber, Lyft contract versus full time employee debate kind of goes into this because if someone is a contractor, they're not an employee. They're not going to unionize. That becomes a non-headache for companies.

Joel: Yeah, there are a lot of really interesting macro-economic trends that we're watching. And I don't think either one of us is smart enough to appreciate everything that's going on. So crappy jobs, automation, stock market all-time high, everyone's 401(k)s is great. There's no-

Chad: Ones that have 401(k)s.

Joel: Correct. Correct. Which is probably most of our listeners.

Chad: Yeah. But that's the thing. We're looking at like us as the standard, and that's not the case. We're not the standard. We aren't. So we have 401(k)s. That's great. But there are a lot of people that are out there, the bulk of people that don't have 401(k)s number one, and number two, might be having to work a side hustle and/or more than one job to be able just to make ends meet.

Joel: How many people work at Starbucks because they have health benefits? How many work at Chipotle because they have health benefits? I think clearly one of the top storylines of 2020 is going to be the election because there's going to be this opposing sides of growth economy, stocks, no recession. You're going to have the other side of that, which is tax the rich and equality and all that stuff. I'm really interested to see where our country falls with this debate because I think it's more desperate than ever, the lines between those sides. And Trump promised blue collar job growth in states that have had hard times. Many would say that those states have not benefited from Trump's economy.

Chad: Carrier jobs that he... It was kind of like a splash-

Joel: Sure, in Indiana.

Chad: Right. So it was like, "Oh, look, vote for me. I'm going to create jobs." And then after he gets in office, where did those fucking jobs go?

Joel: Sure. Sure. I mean-

Chad: They're gone.

Joel: The steel industry when he took office, expectations of value, stock price, et cetera went through the roof. Those valuations are back down because the steel industry did not benefit like they thought they would. I'm not sure farmers would say that they've benefited from the tariffs and things like they thought they would. So 2020's going to be fascinating on many, many levels. I'm pretty excited to watch what's going to happen.

Chad: We just have to all be more... We really have to step outside and do a lot of research to understand a lot of this, which is one of the reasons why I love these types of reports because, I mean, we've been talking about it for a year. Yeah, "the economy's great", but what does that actually mean for the common person? Is it really great for them? Is it better today than it was let's say eight years ago or what have you? Fuck, I don't know. But what it's saying is no, Job Quality Index says it's...

Joel: Little teaser, Robert Ruff CEO over at Sovren. We interviewed him extensively lately, which we'll release at some point. But he talks really passionately about the health of our middle class, and a healthy middle class being just integral to a healthy society and economy. And talks about the '50, '60s versus today. So yeah, this is a real interesting topic. We could talk about it for many days, but we don't have that kind of time.

Chad: No, because we have to take a break.

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Chad: And we're back.

Joel: We're back.

Chad: So we were just talking about one of the companies Starbucks, right?

Joel: Yup.

Chad: And it's funny because Starbucks providing health benefits, doing... I mean, hiring veterans, those things. One of the things I love about Starbucks is when they say they're going to do something, it's generally not warm and fuzzy. They actually do it. When they said they're going to hire veterans, so many companies say that and they don't do it, right? They did it. They did it.

Joel: By the way, remember the arrest, the African American man that was in-

Chad: Yes.

Joel: I mean, after that happened, they apologized. They had training, sensitivity training.

Chad: Took a whole day, yeah.

Joel: So yeah. Starbucks, even when they screw up, do a really good job of trying to make it right.

Chad: Well, in this case, they didn't screw up. Starbucks Corporation for the first time has disclosing how much less women at the coffee chain earn more than men in the US, and that's $0. There is no pay gap. That's in contrast in the nation's workforce overall, in which women make an average 19% less than men. Starbucks is also saying it has no racial pay gap. So this is a company that has nearly 300,000 people, and-

Joel: Global company. Huge.

Chad: As we talk to companies about this, it's a hard discussion because paid transparency, it doesn't exist. Right?

Joel: Yup.

Chad: Shit, when somebody's applying for a job, they don't even know what the salary is. It was funny because it was talking to an employer a couple weeks ago, and we were talking about Google for Jobs and ranking hiring Google for Jobs or looking at jobs as why don't we have salary on your job. And he kind of made every excuse he could. [crosstalk 00:38:22] It's like, "Dude, there is no fucking excuse." There is no fucking excuse. Period. Right? That's the problem. We have to stop making excuses, and we have to take a look at how we get to pay equity. It's not going to happen over night. It's not. We totally get that. But you have to be more transparent, and you have to start making those steps. Starbucks obviously, they did that. And it's not just their baristas. They don't have 300,000 baristas. They have corporate offices, regional directors, all that shit.

Joel: Starbucks is such a great example of a big company that does so many things right for their employees treatment and recruiting. When you look at an Amazon, you can still be profitable and grow and give back-

Chad: Take care of your people.

Joel: Yeah, give back to your people and society and be a leader and a role model and not be an asshole.

Chad: Yes. But Chipotle, which I think is awesome, they haven't talked about closing the pay gap yet. But what they are closing is the drunken employee


Joel: This was a crazy ass story.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: So let me get this straight. So if you call in sick at Chipotle, they send you to a nurse, which I assume is a phone call. And then you go through a checklist of questions, and the nurse determines whether you're really sick or if you're just hungover. Is that what's going on?

Chad: So the CEO Brian Niccol actually said, "We have nurses on call," so that if you say, "Hey, I've been sick," you get a call in front a nurse. The nurse validates that it's not a hangover, and you're really sick. And then we pay you for the day off. So you can get healthy again. Now this also revolves around their health and wellness issues with the norovirus outbreak that they had, right? So they want to make sure that their employees are healthy.

Joel: That's a good point because if something's going to outbreak in Chipotle, the employees would be the first-

Chad: So he actually said this on an all hands call or something like that. It was pretty much, "Hey, look. We want to be able to ensure your health and wellness and then the health and wellness of our customers." And putting that paramount. And I think it's like a funny side note. If you're drunk, that's a little bit different. You know what I mean?

Joel: I could never work at Chipotle, clearly at this point.

Chad: Well, you couldn't because you would eat all the profits.

Joel: Yes. I would. It's delicious.

Chad: It's delicious.

Joel: And they sell beer now, so I'd be a total slacker, more so than I already am.

Joel: Now I hope where this is going is not biochip, we're going to tell if you're drunk or not and track your blood alcohol content from the chip that's in your body. But I fear some companies will take that to places where they know if you're drinking or if you're smoking pot in states that it's legal or countries where it's legal. The biotracking that is potential is a little bit scary. I don't see Chipotle going that direction, but I could definitely see some companies doing that and creating a benefit like, "Hey, if you let us track your blood alcohol content and are you smoking and are you blah, blah, blah, we'll give you more money." And then people doing that.

Chad: We worry about the stupidest shit, and we create technology which we've seen... I think Slack we did a story about kind of the [crosstalk 00:41:54]

Joel: Sentiment analysis.

Chad: Yeah. Sentiment analysis on Slack. It's ridiculous. It really is. I just saw an article about, the luggage-

Joel: The luggage company, yeah.

Chad: They do everything on Slack because the CEO is engaged to Stewart Butterfield. So they do everything on Slack. The CEO of Slack. So everything is on Slack, but all that sentiment analysis, she has access to see everything that's... They don't use email, any of that shit. So, I mean, I think that is a place where some people will go, and they'll use it for evil as opposed to what everybody hoped and intended it to be used for.

Joel: Sure. There's an email sentiment company. Obviously Slack, they do that. I've seen companies where they wear necklace... Not necklaces, but little lavalieres or whatever that record their voice and tracks sentiment and happiness and obviously transcribes what you're saying to other... I mean, pretty scary shit. I get why companies do it, but why people would want to work for those companies is beyond me. Maybe at some point it'll just be accepted. But for our generation, I think for sure, that seems very weird and intrusive.

Chad: If companies are doing that, they're afraid that they're not getting the transparency from their employees, which means their employees are afraid to share with them. So they're trying to get it in other ways. That should tell you at the very base of your organization, there's a problem. And it's a culture problem. You don't fix a culture problem with technology that helps... That's the thing, we're trying to find the easy button to all this shit, and what it is just be more fucking human.

Joel: Yeah, and there's something to be said for trusting people and not feeling like you live in 1984 when you step through the doors at work, right?

Chad: Yes. And on that, we out.

Joel: We out.

Ema: Hi. I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit

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