Christmas is over, and business is business!
The boys cover items this week from Indeed-owned ClickIQ and Monster's BetterThing. Better who? Exacty. And, as it that wasn't enough, Chad & Cheese discuss their Top Tens from the decade. Balls will drop on this first show of 2020. Enjoy, and make Sovren, JobAdx, and Canvas your New Year's resolution.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Joel: Oh, yeah. 2020 Happy New Year. Christmas is over and business is business. Welcome to 2020 I'm Barbara Walters. I mean I'm Joel Cheesman. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm here with Chad, the man, Sowash.
Joel: Merry New Year everybody. On this week show Monster gets out of a better thing. ClickIQ shows us up and we both go through the decade's top 10. Get ready for balls to drop. We'll be right back after we pay a few bills.
Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day.
Canvas: Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent.
Joel: So I feel after reading the intro, I'm either really out of practice or I'm still drunk from the holidays. I can't figure out which one.
Chad: Probably a little bit of both.
Joel: We'll go with that. So apparently [crosstalk 00:01:46] come next, if I remember correctly.
Chad: That would be correct.
Joel: SHOUT OUTS!
Chad: The holiday card idea that we had actually went off pretty well. I mean, I have received, not going to go through all of them for God's sakes, but emails, messages, Facebook messages, just a ton of people laughing and sending pictures of them holding the card, it up on their door or something like that. But they enjoyed the Chad and Cheesmas card.
Joel: It was a lot of fun. We had a good time with it. And I will have a mini rant here for a second. If two meat heads with no budget can come up with something fairly creative, then shame on the companies that actually have marketing departments and simply sent out a basically a template email with a shining star or a dancing reindeer or whatever saying happy holidays, blah blah blah. Because that's just straight up lazy people.
Chad: Yes. That is totally lazy and not to mention as we talk about engagement, I wish we had all of the addresses for all of our listeners. That would be a shit ton of cards. We probably couldn't afford it, but still we could get some out to touch all of those people, but we only got the bad touch on about a hundred of them.
Joel: There was a lot of bad touching going on this year. Yeah. Maybe next year we'll set up a landing page, say, give us your mailing address and you'll be sure to get a Christmas card from us.
Chad: Oh, yeah, man. That was always fun.
Joel: Holiday card. I don't want to offend anybody.
Chad: Call it what you want.
Joel: We're all ho ho hos as far as I'm concerned.
Chad: That's right. And that leads me to my first shout out again to Kelly Robinson because he gave us the gift that keeps on giving. And I'm not saying the clock people, I'm saying he gave us the 12 days of Christmas Whiskeys of The World, which is an interactive calendar and how do you interact with this calendar, Joel?
Joel: You drink, I think.
Chad: Yes, you drink the calendar. There's a box it has 12 different whiskeys and bourbons and scotches, all that stuff to have different whiskeys and every day you pop out a new one. There's this really cool card that tells you what the whiskey is and it has this really awesome tasting glass and you enjoy that whiskey of the day. And that my friend was, again, we talk about-
Joel: Going above and beyond.
Chad: ... marketing. Right?
Joel: Cutting through the clutter.
Chad: Yeah. I feel like an idiot. We did a stupid fucking card. People loved it, but still this, this is the shit. Good job Kelly.
Joel: We don't have the budget for alcohol for everybody as much as we would love to do that. Yeah. Kelly. That shit is dope. Everyone else take note. We love liquor.
Chad: Sounds good stuff.
Joel: We also love hot cocoa because Mya, my first shoutout, sent me a mug of hot chocolate with a mug and some chocolates I think, which was nice. You got the same thing I assume.
Chad: Yeah, I've got the same thing. I thought it was possibly, I might not have gotten the bourbon that was supposed to be with it. I mean because that that is totally on brand for Mya, but you have to know who you're trying to engage people. So yeah, it was definitely, I love Lacy, Vinita and AL, sent us a card, it was handwritten. That is special. It's even more special when you have some bourbon in it.
Joel: Flavor profile was what I was thinking of in my last little shout out. Yes. If it was on brand, it would have had coffee and a little bitty Jameson for some Irish coffee to go with the holidays. Nevertheless, I did milk my new year's hangover with a nice cup of Joe in my Mya coffee cup. So, muchos gracias, Mya.
Chad: Just finished my first pot of coffee in that Mya cup. It's a pretty big fucking cup.
Joel: Speaking of Irishman, a shout out to Adam Chambers, our favorite, I don't know globetrotting Irishman who's currently in Mexico. Firing squad alumni. He was very nice. Sent me a nice note for the holidays and much for the love we gave him on the show. So Adam, wherever you are man, shout out to you buddy.
Chad: That's right. Appley chat all over the place. Big thanks to Roy and Jenae from Smart Recruiters for the cards. Again, handwritten picture, chocolate bars. I didn't see any bourbon in this one either. Again, I appreciate all of the time you guys are taking, but just take a little bit more time in a little bit more money and send bourbon with that and it'll be perfect.
Joel: Yeah, and thanks for getting me Smart Recruiters. I appreciate that. Shout out to a company called Divvy. I got hit up in LinkedIn, Divvy is offering $100 if you'll just demo their products, which I did not do, but if you're going to get your product in front of people, offering them $100 is a decent way to do that. Divvy this shout out's for you.
Chad: They pay you to go through their demo.
Joel: Correct. So instead of paying for leads, they just say, "Screw it. We'll give you a hundred bucks if you do a demo with us."
Chad: Yeah. I don't even want to get into that. A big shout out to our peeps over at Evergreen Podcast. They got us into the insideradio.com bulletin or whatever it was. It was Chad and Cheese along with Jim Stroud and the talent cast. Yeah, we're doing some big things in the podcast world and 2020 is when it's going to get better. I think we said it once before, but we'll say it again. Look for the Recruiting Future podcast. That's right. Matt Alder and all the steeliness of his interviews coming to Evergreen and the podcast network.
Joel: That man is so sexy.
Joel: If you're in Cleveland, Chad and I will be making a John up your way early next week for who knows what the hell. We're going to meet up with evergreen and talk strategery and other stuff, but I'm assuming little Johns around town will be had and we will probably be breaking some laws in the process.
Chad: It's a standard. I think so, yes. Shout out to go figure, Steven Rothberg, he shared the story with us. The story was a US government study confirms most face recognition systems are racist and asks, "How does this affect 10 Guy?" And overall I can't tell you 100% I have the answer to this other than 10 Guy in its current form doesn't record video or analyze the actual voice itself. It just wants to be able to recognize a face so that it can zone in on you and have a conversation, eye to eye contact like you normally would.
Chad: But that being said, I think we should actually get Ellen and Charlotte on a pod to talk about this subject specifically. Not as much as we're on 10 Guy but around this subject. And do they see this actually happening possibly for 10 Guy in the future, facial recognition?
Joel: And it should be done in downtown Stockholm if we're going to do it. Also to Rothberg, congratulations. His Minnesota Gophers, a defeated the Auburn Tigers for the first 10 plus months season since 1905 or some shit. And Rothberg is getting pretty big for his britches. He's talking trash about Wisconsin and Ohio State. It's the gophers dude, relax, relax. It's not going to be a trend.
Chad: You take it when you can get it, my friend. Take it when you can get it and just think if you would have won against the Badgers, then you would have been able to play Ohio state, watch them get their ass beat. So just be happy that you didn't have to go through that.
Joel: Good point.
Joel: Shout out to Alex Murphy and Jason Roberts, Alex Murphy for Firing Squad, Jason Roberts, those were published sometime during Christmas break. If you haven't listened to those, I encourage you to do so. They were great interviews.
Chad: Good stuff. Not to mention we did our naughty and nice onstage with Bill Boorman and that was a fun time as well.
Joel: Doesn't get naughtier than Bill Boorman.
Chad: It does not.
Joel: Don't forget James Butcher, am I pronouncing that right?
Joel: I never get that right.
Joel: It's Canadian, so I can be excused for that. So my last shout out goes to Drones. I don't know if you caught this or not, but Times Square, New Year's Eve was partly patrolled by a bunch of drones. So we talk a lot about drones and automation robots on the show. God help us. Drones are policing Times Square on new year's Eve.
Chad: They're not actually policing Times Square, it's not like-
Joel: I just meant patrolling. Is there a difference?
Chad: It's just like having cameras, like CCTV. It's just that they're all over the place. It's just providing additional data points for the actual human beings that are actually policing the streets.
Joel: Yeah. I didn't mean to suggest that it was Robocop style. Drones were arresting people, but they are helping police. Police folks that are acting like idiots on New Year's Eve.
Chad: Just want to make sure we made that clear to the listeners.
Joel: Ready for the news?
Chad: Let's do it.
Joel: So ClickIQ has a few items that we need to cover. What would you like to talk about first?
Chad: Well the cool thing about this is that we give plenty of companies a hard time. We could even say we fuck with companies a lot.
Joel: It's done out of love.
Chad: And we do provide the love where we see that necessary as well. And many of those companies try to ignore because they think that what we're saying is just going to go away. And it just continues to come back. ClickIQ and Richard over there, Richard Collins said you know what?
Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chad: His parent company now is indeed who they always try to ignore. They don't. And we know and we know they don't ignore because we hear shit that they actually say, which is awesome. But anyway, when it comes to Richard, Richard is like, "No, fuck this dude. I'm going to call those guys. And we're going to talk all their points through and from my standpoint I have to give Richard big fucking applause, and any company that if they want to provide opposing viewpoints to some of the things that we're saying about maybe some of their strategies or their tactics or what have you, have the actual chutzpah to say something to actually come back and have a discussion and a conversation. Because when you are not a part of the conversation, guess what? We dictate what the fucking conversation is.
Joel: Yeah. And and not only just their point of view but also corrections as was the case with these guys.
Chad: So let's talk about some of the points that Richard actually he hit us up with. And then we have some other data after that too. Number one, ClickIQ is not hiding data from users. One of the things that we actually were provided with were screenshots from actual talent acquisition professionals that were using the platform. And what we were told was that was probably an earlier beta model. The dashboard before only showed, and this is why we thought it was an issue, it only showed or the screenshot that we saw only showed Glassdoor and Indeed and it forced you to go to another tab to actually see more data.
Chad: So that's where Joel had actually said, "Okay, so this is almost like a Google trick where Google was hiding data in Google analytics at one time. It looks like they're hiding data." In this case, Richard showed us that they're not hiding data. They do have kind of like a do it yourself dashboard where you can create your own dashboards and reports, which was pretty cool.
Joel: And wasn't the list algorithmic based on like the amount of traffic that each one delivered?
Chad: It was your highest, so if indeed was your highest, it was definitely going to be on there. But it didn't necessarily have us. So he was showing us some different reports where it wasn't.
Joel: We talked to them after our Chad and Cheese holiday party. Some of the events are a little blurry for me. But yeah, I remember it being much fare than a than we had discussed initially.
Chad: Yeah. And the number two item was that ClickIQ is not an indeed buying house because it just doesn't make strategic sense. If you think of it from more of a strategic standpoint as opposed to the tactical for Indeed. Yes, Indeed would love to have somebody else out there Programmatically selling their wares and boosting their specific revenue goals. Although if you think of it from a strategic standpoint with ClickIQ, they're making money off their competitors. So that makes no sense whatsoever. Why piss off their competitors because they're fucking making money off their backs right now. Makes no sense, right?
Joel: Yeah. Competitor money is fun money for sure.
Chad: And those aren't Richard's words. That was me just going ahead and and translating what we heard. Last but not least, number three Neuvoo, pretty soon to become talent.com and ZipRecruiter are still engaged. What engaged means, I'm not 100% sure yet, although at least the feeling that we got out of it was that the money is too good to pass up. So the reason why companies like the ZipRecruiters or the Neuvoo's or anybody are a part of these platforms is because it's another way for them, like an agency, to get out, get penetration and make more money. So overall the money is too good and there's no way in hell they're going to turn down that check. That was kind of like the feeling that I got. What about you?
Joel: Money talks and bullshit walks for sure. Although we are seeing or hearing about cracks in the pavement if you will, at least regarding ZipRecruiter. I've actually reached out to ZipRecruiter for some clarification on this. Their PR guy's on vacation. So as soon as we hear we'll let you know. But at least this source tells us that ZipRecruiter may not be playing in ClickIQ sandbox for much longer.
Chad: Yes. And I've also reached out to several and I've gotten the thanks but no thanks kind of response back. Kind of like, "Yeah, we're just not going to talk about that." Companies like ZipRecruiter and Neuvoo, all those other companies, they're going to have problems with integrating with ClickIQ knowing that Indeed will have access to their client data.
Chad: I mean, imagine Indeed reps rolling into a presentation with competitor data, right? I mean specific competitor data. Now I know that as Richard said, this does not make sense with their longterm strategy because in this model, competitors doing well actually make money for ClickIQ and overall, Indeed. Although we all know how that works in real life.
Chad: The optics versus what is reality and what's actually really happening. So I think what we're feeling is most of these competitors saying, "No, fuck that man. I am not giving my client data to ClickIQ/Indeed." Right. That's how they see it. "I'm not giving it to Indeed." So I think there's going to be a lot of work for Richard and team over at ClickIQ to be able to separate themselves from Indeed.
Joel: Word to the wise, when you acquire these companies and they rely on competitors to fund them and make them successful, like you're going to hit some speed bumps. The company you bought might not be as valuable if big competitors jump ship because they don't want to share data or they feel threatened or don't want to share money with the acquirer. It's also word to the wise to employers to know that when big companies or competitors start buying these services that it's not necessarily going to be the same service a year from now that you had today and be a smart consumer and make sure that you're aware of who's buying who and what's going on. And hopefully those listeners out there who tune into us don't have that issue, but a certain ones do. And it's a definite word to the wise that things change in this industry when things get acquired.
Chad: Yeah. And this is a, a quote from somebody in talent acquisition. So this isn't a vendor, is "They're pitching, that's ClickIQ is pitching as completely unbiased, which we all know is bullshit." Now again, we're not just talking about the Neuvoos or the ZipRecruiters or what have you, who actually feed in and help ClickIQ and Indeed make money. But we're talking about the people at the end of this pot of fucking gold who supply the money.
Chad: So overall this is a huge optics problem. And the biggest question is how do you separate yourself? Because they have been this industry's biggest and best Trojan horse. How the fuck do you get away from perspectively being the new 'Indeed Trojan horse?' That's the hard part.
Joel: Just don't be acquired.
Chad: I'm talking about ClickIQ now.
Joel: Yeah. I don't think you can. And even if you can, I don't know if anyone would believe it.
Chad: Luckily Richard's new car probably has him sleeping better at night.
Joel: Yeah. He mentioned his Aston Martin a few times, so yeah. That will cushion any blow for sure.
Chad: Again, we really appreciate the transparency that Richard provided having this discussion and going back and forth. I truly believe that they're trying to do everything they possibly can to be 'unbiased.' The hardest part is the optics piece and being attached to somebody who was known as the industry's biggest Trojan horse. Everything that he showed us was spot on. It looked pretty fucking magical to be quite Frank. So yeah, big props to him and thanks for adding clarity around those different areas.
Joel: Thanks Richard. We appreciate it. Monster in the news. It's been a while since we've talked about them.
Chad: There's a reason for that.
Joel: They're shutting down BetterThing.com or something.
Chad: So this one really blows my mind because this type of app looks like the exact avenue Monster and all the rest of the industry should be heading down. There's no uploading of resumes. This is for trucker. So you scan your CDL, you actually scan your CDL, the barcode for your CDL. Jobs are delivered via the mobile app. You click and schedule an interview straight from the app. The messaging allows the drivers to get questions, answers. There's no applications, no service, no searching. So what the fuck happened here? This seems like what Monster needed to be able to really, not just in trucking, but to be able to start to use this for trucking and then bridge it into something bigger. And the different industries like nursing or what have you.
Joel: And by the way, I hear trucking's huge and really profitable. So yeah.
Chad: I don't understand.
Joel: Getting out of that was a mystery. But I think it goes back to all of the the reorg up top, the layoffs that happened. I mean, they're just cutting what they believe is fat. That's the only reason I can find. But for this start shutting things down.
Chad: Yeah. But to this sounds like an actual product that they created, right?
Joel: It's own URL, right? BetterThing.com.
Chad: Yeah. It's their product. It's an app that was created and it's not somebody else's tech, I don't believe it's somebody else's tech. Much like the video, the Monster Studios platform, which they were trying to push heavily. Again, I think from a strategic standpoint, from a vision standpoint, I think Scott Guts is an incredibly nice guy. The guy also has done amazing things in the travel industry. I'm just not sure, I think it's kind of like he was airlifted into the Titanic after it hit the fucking iceberg.
Joel: Yeah. Our source said this was shutting down on December 31st I think?
Joel: Yeah, the site's still up.
Chad: Yeah. I think it was paused on December 31st. Definitely reach out to Scott and team. I mean there are actually a handful of my contacts that were on the product side that aren't there anymore, product and sales side that aren't there anymore. So yeah, they've been scaling down. The big question is, what's Randstad going to do with this smelly fucking egg?
Joel: Well, that sounds like something for our prediction show that's coming up soon. Let's get a quick word from JobAdX and we'll go through our top 10s for the decade. That sounds exciting.
Chad: Not a bad egg, that JobAdX.
JobAdX: So how's the hiring going? Find those purple squirrels? With applicant after applicant it feels like I'm just getting further from hiring the right candidate. I've got tons of applications, but none of these candidates are even close to being the right fit. Volume is great and all, but my small team doesn't have the time to sift through hundreds of mismatched applications. I want more relevant candidates, not just more candidates.
JobAdX: Well get this, JobAdX has been helping small to medium businesses get their job ads in front of targeted active job seekers by matching your jobs to a candidate based on their search behavior across a vast network of niche job sites and talent networks. And the best part, it's self-serve. No sales reps, no chat bots, no spend minimums. Just fill a form with your name, number of jobs, and a budget you're working with. And voila. Your ads are now shown over a growing network of 150 job sites.
JobAdX: Better yet, those company videos that showcase the value of being part of a small team can have a new home now within your ads, helping you stand out and share your vision proactively. Wait, what was that? Oh, I just signed up for self-serve with JobAdX. What were you talking about? That fast, huh? Jumpstart your targeted recruitment with JobAdX today. Visit jobadx.com and click that get started, risk-free button. It's jobadx.com. JobAdX, engage, attract, employ.
Joel: Yes. For falling into that top 10 list. An epidemic that happens every time this year.
Chad: It's so much fun.
Joel: Yes, it is a lot of fun.
Chad: But this one isn't about 2019 though. We're starting an entirely new decade, so we actually spent a little time to be able to break down. We want to break down, at least from our stupid male brains, the decade.
Joel: Yeah. I came to you and said, let's do like nine for 2019 and nine things that made the year and you said, "Fuck that dude. 10 the whole decade. Let's do it all." And I said, "Ah, shit. I actually have to think about this."
Chad: 10 for 10.
Joel: We just went in our corner and figured out 10 things that sort of defined the decade. We're both coming at it from a little bit different angles, but hopefully both will serve as entertaining to our listeners. So as the oldest should go first, I'll let you start things off.
Chad: That's nice. Yeah. Joel's going to be more focused on the industry specifically. Mine's going to be more broad based. Number one job growth. In 2010 we started to finally feel positive job growth. After 2008 and the immense hit on our economy, we started to see the actual job growth we're still experiencing today. One of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is because economies don't turn on a dime.
Chad: Yes, Trump can tweet and it can affect a stock in the short term, but the decisions made 10 years ago is what drives our economy. So the decisions we're making today, that's what's so important because that will impact our economy, not just not in the next five minutes, but in the next 10 years. So going back all the way to 2010 that's when we started to experience coming out of that hell of a hole that we were in and started to actually see job growth.
Joel: Isn't it amazing too that there are generations of workers now who don't even know a time of like job growth?
Joel: All right, my first thing, and then we'll go to 2010 Monster buys HotJobs. Speaking of generations, there's a whole generation that doesn't even know what HotJobs is. If you took a transport back to 2010 HotJobs was pretty well known as the number three player in the industry. They were one of the first Superbowl ads, they were a big brand, they were acquired by Yahoo. And in 2010 Monster coming in and buying a HotJobs for I think around $225 million, which is really peanuts when we think about what Indeed went for a few a years later, which I'll also get to in my list, they also got as part of the deal, Monster, they were the exclusive jobs provider I think for three years after the acquisition deal.
Joel: But to me this sort of set the table for what would become the awareness that jobs were a commodity, the value of them was sort of limited. Obviously Yahoo was kind of fire selling some stuff at the time. Carol Bartz was in charge and she was selling off a lot of assets. But this sort of started the ball rolling to me and was worth noting that this started the decline of job boards, the value of job boards and what would become valuable as we sort of journeyed through the 10 years from 2010 to 2019
Chad: Yeah. Really hated to see a brand like HotJobs go the way that it did because it was there. It was the chief competitor of Monster when we launched on January of '99 when OCC and the Monster board came together. HotJobs was really our prime competitor. So to be able to see them go down. That's again, it's one of those things that happens. CareerBuilder took their place. There's always somebody to take their place. But yeah, it's not something I really wanted to see happen.
Joel: Yeah. And most people thought HotJobs would really almost leap frog Monster and CareerBuilder once the Yahoo deal happen. That did not unfold as people thought at the time.
Chad: Number two, a more broad based.
Joel: Number two.
Chad: Number two, is streaming services exploding. As we see technology get faster and obviously video is huge on the web, we start to get these devices that allow us to stream. So I remember then you probably did too back when we were a kid and Home Box Office was announced. That was a huge revolutionary step at the time. Right?
Joel: We're talking about HBO, correct for those.....
Joel: Just to make sure the kids keep up with what we're talking about.
Chad: Yeah. So HBO showed what kind of high quality programming could be developed and then Netflix just blew it out of the water with shows like House of Cards. Now and moving and what we saw launch in 2019 but I believe is going to be the new big level changer is Disney+. I think they're going to take content to an entirely different level and changing the program dollar, the programming dollar aspect into a much larger merchandising and traditional box office sales play. But we saw that start to happen in the last decade. So us being able to transition and transform an entire industry happened and I think, at least in my eyes in the last 10 years.
Joel: Do you remember the Quickster debacle?
Joel: So Netflix initially started a site called Quickster that was going to be its streaming service. So they were going to have the mail in CDs as Netflix and then they were launching Quickster as their streaming service. Wall Street hated it, customers hated it. The world hated it. And they actually didn't even own the Twitter handle Quickster. So the idiot who owned that thought he was going to get rich. But they ended up going back to just Netflix and killing the Quickster brand, which was not very old.
Joel: And Netflix just evolved into a streaming service. Although I do think you can still get CDs by the mail through Netflix. I haven't done that in like a decade. But the Quickster debacle was kind of a fun side note there to the Netflix story that I thought I'd bring out for everybody.
Chad: That's awesome.
Joel: So my number two on the heels of Monster buying HotJobs in 2012 Recruit Holdings, a little known Japanese company to most Americans acquired indeed.com. The amount was never disclosed, although the rumor, the whisper number was around $1.5 billion. Which makes a lot of sense. Allegedly they were also looking at Monster at the time but really liked Indeed's business a whole lot better. I think Recruit had some great foresight and coming out of the recession and saying, "Hey, what is going to be the future? What's what should we buy now to get a leap on where the world is going?"
Joel: And Indeed's sort of nicely scaled model plug it in any country pretty much in the world played a lot to their strengths. So to me like that was a changing of the guard, moving away from traditional job boards to more sort of search engine based scraping technology for postings and jobs. Obviously Indeed had a huge leg up on SEO at the time. It was getting a lot of their traffic for free. So recruit holdings, making that move in 2012 definitely makes one of my top 10
stories or things that happened in the last decade for sure.
Chad: Yeah. Too easy. My number three in June of 2015 the Supreme court of the United States makes same sex marriage legal. This, from our standpoint in the actual office in the workplace as employees, we start to see equity. That's a big key actually allowing people to come to work as themselves. And from my standpoint to be able to understand as all of these technologies that we talk about all the time, none of that matters if we're not treating the people the way they should be able to be treated. Being able to allow them to come to work as them their whole selves. And this in June of 2015 was a big decision, which again was only by one vote.