2025 Wrap-Up Show

2025 didn’t just shake HR and recruiting. Nope, it grabbed the curtain, ripped it off the wall, and burned the building down for content.

This year-in-review isn’t keynote confetti or LinkedIn thought-leader Mad Libs. It’s what actually happened when no one thought the mics were on:

• Job boards hoarding hiring data like state secrets

• HR tech rivals mistaking “healthy competition” for a spy-movie audition

• Private equity gutting legacy platforms like it’s Black Friday

• Founders playing galaxy-brain chess while employees covered the bill

From:

• Indeed trying to own the entire hiring pipeline

• The Rippling vs. Deel espionage saga no one asked for but everyone watched

• Monster France shutting down while exec bonuses stayed cozy

• Job.com’s bankruptcy airing out like reality TV

  
  

And just for extra chaos:

• AI agents ghosting resumes

• Slack messages promoted to courtroom exhibits

• LinkedIn turning into a credibility obstacle course

• Recruiters stuck in the blast zone asking, “When did this become the job?”

  
  

Welcome to 2025. HR didn’t just have a moment it had a full-blown meltdown. 🍿

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

[music]

0:00:00.2 Chad: Welcome to Chad and Cheese 2025 wrap-up show, where we choose the top five listened-to episodes and pull nuggets of fun and goodness from said episodes. The first one is not going to be a surprise to Chad and Cheese die-hard fans as Indeed goes evil. Enjoy. Well, Joel, Indeed has been busy, kids. Uh, healthy budgets enforced. Hyams is out, or he decided to leave. He decided to leave.

[laughter]

0:00:36.4 Chad: Uh, killing agency XML feeds, forcing them into APIs, uh, fo-focusing on how to force hiring companies to give Indeed disposition data for their ATS. And then Jim, the Indeed Whisperer Durbin, sends us this. Go ahead and roll that beautiful bean footage.

0:00:52.6 Jim Durbin: Hi, it's Jim Durbin, the Indeed Whisperer, coming back with yet another story on Indeed. As they dropped their shareholder report for the second quarter of 2025. The big news is their new plan to simplify everything and make it faster. Indeed's come out with their plan, which is they think that the global time to fill is 43 days, and they want to, on their own, cut that in half by 2030. When you go through everything that they're pitching, they've decided automation, speed, and Indeed is the center of it all. It explains what's going on with some of the single source feeds being cut, the plans to move into direct staffing and temporary staffing, and a new category called internal automation, which they count as $80 billion, including ATSs and background checks, that they're adding into as things they can show how they saved money and did a better job. It's a fascinating change from the world's largest job board and recruitment marketplace, decided that they know how they're going to hire, and we're doing it wrong, and we have to change what we're doing. Definitely check out some reading about that. It's going to be a spicy, spicy six months.

0:02:00.6 Joel: Spicy.

0:02:02.1 S?: Spicy.

0:02:02.5 Joel: Where was the cowboy hat, Jim?

0:02:07.1 Chad: Next time.

0:02:07.5 JT: I only know Jim with a hat on.

[overlapping conversation]

0:02:08.9 JT: He's not, he's off-brand, isn't he? JT knows.

0:02:11.5 Joel: He's off-brand. That was like kind of buttoned up.

0:02:14.8 Chad: Jim.

0:02:15.1 JT: I love... I love the Indeed Whisperer, though. He's... He's always on that.

0:02:20.2 Joel: Mm-hmm. Yes.

0:02:21.2 JT: He's... He's, I think he's still single. I wonder if he uses that in the... In the bars there in Texas.

0:02:24.0 Chad: God, I hope not.

0:02:25.9 JT: Umm...

0:02:27.8 Chad: I hope not.

0:02:29.7 JT: Indeed keeps us busy on this show.

0:02:30.9 Chad: Yeah.

0:02:31.9 JT: That's for sure.

0:02:32.9 Joel: Yeah.

0:02:33.4 JT: I mean, we're... They're not going to get accused of not, uh, innovating, at least trying some stuff and... And innovating in air quotes. Uh, look, I I can't hate on them for swinging for the fences. Umm, you know, whether this... This becomes the new, uh, monster type screw-up, uh, like, uh, be known, uh, and it fades away and they, they don't have the core competency to pull it off. I guess that's left to be seen. But they are full-on full court. We're going to own the process. We're going to be in your... In your ATS, the background... Like all that stuff. They want to own the whole thing.

0:03:08.1 Chad: Mm-hmm.

0:03:10.7 JT: I can't hate on them... Hate on them for that, but I... I can kind of hate on them for, I guess, the bullying way that they're just saying, we're going to do this and either, you know, get on, follow, or get the hell out of the way, or get run over.

0:03:21.4 Chad: Yeah.

0:03:22.8 JT: Umm, what I've... One of the things I found funny was, uh, Jim posted this on... On LinkedIn and Meghan Rattigan, a friend of ours over at Marriott's, had a quote something like, it's not a time to be lazy. It's... You know, it's a... It's a time to be sort of focused on this.

[overlapping conversation]

0:03:38.9 JT: And I thought that's funny because people in general are lazy, uh, and people in HR and talent are lazy as well.

0:03:39.2 Chad: Megan's not.

0:03:42.2 JT: Ultimately, Megan is. It's an 80/20 kind of thing.

0:03:46.8 Chad: Yeah.

0:03:47.8 JT: And Megan is in the 20%.

0:03:49.2 Chad: Yeah.

0:03:50.5 JT: But 80% of the people of the companies are going to roll over and they're going to let Indeed do this. And I'm sure whatever Pencil Net Geek and Indeed said, look, if we lose 20%, big deal. The money we're going to make on the 80% that agree to do this, we're going to... We're going to come out... Come out on top. Uh, there is some historical relevance.

0:04:06.0 Stephen: Time for the history lessons.

0:04:09.9 Joel: Uh, that [0:04:10.2] ____ to throw in, uh. So, so Google, umm, back in the day, tried to sort of do similar thing. They were doing pay-per-click. They wanted to... They launched, uh, an analytics solution. They wanted to be in your code.

0:04:25.0 Joel: They wanted to know when everything that you sold, how much you made. They wanted a piece of that. They wanted to monitor everything that was going on, which made sense. Because, hey, if you... If you sell a $100 pair of shoes, we're going to get 10, right? What happened was all the webmasters, all the companies were like, no, you're not going to do that.

0:04:41.8 Chad: Yeah.

0:04:42.8 Joel: Uh, like you... We'll pay you for the traffic you give us, but we're not going to let you in and... And open the kimono and, and have you control everything. My fear is that Indeed is doing something similar in trying to overtake the process. We'll see if there's a revolt similar to how Google saw a revolt back in the day. Uh, but again, I think laziness will rule the day and 80% of companies will just roll over and let Indeed do this. And I think it'll be successful.

0:05:06.9 Chad: Uh, so cutting down time to fill, they don't control. I mean, that's nothing they control. And they're... They're... They're talking about a lot of things that they don't control, which is, it's weird. Umm, so to have those expectations over things that you have no control over, like hiring. I mean, they don't hire people. They... They don't do that. Hiring managers are hiring people, right? And if they take three additional days or two additional weeks, Indeed does not have anything to do with control over that. Umm, I jumped into the... The business report. So on page 40, uh, "To achieve the goal of simplifying hiring, which is what Jim was talking about, Recruit believes it is essential to further strengthen the collaboration between all HR related businesses across the Recruit group and operated... Operate them in a unified manner." They're looking to pull these together and call them the HR matching markets. Okay. It goes on to say, "Recruit aims to leverage the vast amount of data available in each service combined with AI machine learning technology to simplify the hiring process and deliver greater value. Yada yada yada." And then on the very next page, "Additionally, by expanding integrations with ATSs." What does that sound like? Disposition codes. "Recruit aims to improve matching by bringing outcome data disposition from external applicant tracking systems into the Indeed platform." Okay, so you can easily see that Recruit's wants and needs are going to move everything into the old staffing company cost per hire model. That's what they want to do. Which is why they're using Indeed to try and force disposition data from the ATS so badly.

0:06:50.9 Chad: This feels like newspapers attempt to conform job boards into their old newspaper models, forcing column inches on hiring companies and getting a... A job posting as a gift with purchase or maybe a small upsell. It didn't work. The model died in the same way that cost per hire is an old and tired model. Every recruiting platform today should be focused on getting more revenue. How do you do that? New models. You... You get every qualified candidate, you get paid for them and you give them what they're asking for, right? We're... We're so used to just loads of candidates, qualified, unqualified. And Megan from Marriott actually said, we got 10 million candidates. What the fuck do we need you for? I'm paraphrasing. At the end of the day, last but not least, they kept saying over and over and over, "As a leader in the global HR matching market." Global HR matching market? This is something they literally just made up. This does not exist. We've been talking about matching. There's no market. I mean, it's like they're trying to create all of these things out of thin air and it's really weird. Umm, I do like that they're trying to swing for the fence. I don't like that they're using their powers for evil and I don't [0:08:10.4] ____ with... With... With...

[laughter]

0:08:12.4 Chad: The bullying and I don't like uh, that they're trying to force everybody into an old ass model like cost per hire when they could make more money on CPQA or CPQC. That's all I got.

0:08:26.1 JT: Yeah. So I agree with...

0:08:26.6 Joel: So it's hard to imagine that they don't see a world. Sorry, JT.

0:08:27.8 JT: No.

0:08:28.1 Joel: Where it feels like they want a world where someone joins Indeed as a job seeker. They put in their resume, what kind of job they're looking for, and then the Indeed agent just 24/7 applies to jobs based on what they're looking for.

[overlapping conversation]

0:08:50.8 Joel: And then companies in a similar way say, hey, I need a PHP developer, whatever.

0:08:53.2 Chad: Yeah.

0:08:54.2 Joel: And then it creates the job posting. It goes to the same, like it interviews. Like I... I think they envision a world where agents talk to agents and a lot of this stuff, you go to... You go to Indeed once or twice and they do the rest for you 24/7.

0:09:07.6 Chad: Right.

0:09:08.7 JT: I agree with that. In fact, you're... So here's the way I look at it is they've got this house that's very old, has no more market appeal. Do you raise the house and start over or do you try to rehab what you have? And so I'm glad that they're trying to swing for something, but it still feels very much as Chad was talking about, that they're rehabbing as opposed to just building something brand new and improved, which those are strategic business decisions. That's fine. What I truly see and believe is that we will... There will be no resumes, there will be no job boards. You will not apply on a job board anymore. You will get on and talk to a virtual agent that'll ask you questions. And every day you'll go on. Kind of like your, you know, it's like your career therapist. What'd you do today? What'd you work on? What skills, what technologies did you use? You'll document yourself. It'll all be sitting there. And then when a recruiter needs somebody with that, it'll go out... It'll listen to all that, which is far more comprehensive. And quite frankly, it can be far more inclusive. If you're looking to switch industries, switch skill sets, you can talk about a lot of things, prove you know something, whereas opposed to your resume is just a history of your past, which is lame. We shouldn't be basing it just on that. So the potential for candidates to just get in there and authenticate themselves, provide the data, provide the evidence all the time, ongoing basis, and the AI can go and find them and match them. You better believe that's coming. I mean, if I learned anything this weekend, building an app in four hours...

0:10:27.1 JT: It is so coming. And so someone's got to do it. The question will become, and this is where I think it's like an arms race.

0:10:29.0 Joel: Sure.

0:10:31.2 JT: This is really interesting. Is it an Indeed who can push their weight around and has the money and can get through it, or is there somebody out there right now with four people that's going to build the next unicorn? Because they can, right? Like this is...

0:10:42.1 Chad: It's always the question. It's always the question.

0:10:44.0 JT: Yeah, it's fascinating.

0:10:46.5 Joel: It... It... It feels very paradox when you look at demos of what Indeed is building. Very chatty, very, uh... Although Paradox is still a person using the chatbot. And Indeed's world, I think it's agents talking to agents.

0:10:58.2 JT: To agents.

0:11:03.6 Joel: Robots hiring robots.

0:11:06.3 Chad: So to JT's point, I think she's 100% correct, but the... There will be assessments and simulations. So when you're talking to, uh, the computer, you're actually using whatever it is, the AI. Umm, there will be standardized assessments and simulations.

0:11:22.7 Joel: Of course.

0:11:24.7 Chad: That you have to do to prove that you can do those jobs, right? Because I think there's going to be a lot of hallucinating happening on, uh, these profiles

0:11:28.2 JT: And fraud.

0:11:30.0 Chad: Yeah.

[overlapping conversation]

0:11:30.2 Chad: But which are the same thing.

[laughter]

0:11:30.9 Joel: Exactly. Technology is coming there to authenticate them...

[overlapping conversation]

0:11:35.0 Joel: To build the constraint, right?

0:11:36.3 Chad: Yeah.

0:11:37.7 Joel: So that we know that will be solved for. But everybody... Both sides want it. Does anybody want to post a job anymore and get 10,000 applicants.

0:11:46.0 Chad: No.

0:11:48.0 Joel: And then get yelled at because somebody didn't get an interview? And does any job seeker want to apply and sit in a black hole and get rejected six months later? Like the whole system is just a joke on, umm, both sides.

0:11:54.5 JT: So 60% of the time.

0:11:57.4 Joel: Exactly.

0:11:59.4 JT: It works every time.

0:12:00.4 Chad: In 2025, we were all given the gift of Rippling suing Deel over corporate espionage. You heard me. You heard me right. Corporate HR espionage. Check it out.

0:12:11.0 JT: Bitter rivals Deel and Rippling are embroiled in a legal spat. Rippling sued Deel on March 17th, also St. Patrick's Day, alleging Deel planted a spy, Keith O'Brien, who's from Ireland. I don't know if there's any connection on that or not, but anyway, Rippling's Dublin office, uh, trade secrets were being stolen, allegedly.

0:12:35.1 Chad: Mm-hmm.

0:12:37.1 JT: Uh, Rippling claims O'Brien conducted over 6000 Slack searches targeting sales data and was caught via a fake hashtag D-Defector's channel on Slack.

0:12:46.4 Chad: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:12:48.4 JT: Two days later, O'Brien allegedly destroyed his phone during a court-ordered seizure in Ireland, locked himself in the bathroom.

0:12:55.1 Chad: Yeah.

0:12:57.1 JT: I believe, which is great. Uh, Deel denies the claims, hinting at counterclaims and pointing to Rippling's own issues, like alleged Russian sanctions violations.

[laughter]

0:13:09.1 JT: Which Rippling shockingly disputes. It's a messy, ongoing showdown, and we're going to love talking about it. Chad, what are your initial thoughts on round one of Deel versus Rippling?

0:13:18.4 Chad: So we got to rip this apart piece by piece. First and foremost, case number on this, kids, is 325-CV-2576.

[laughter]

0:13:29.0 Chad: That is People Center Inc., doing business as Rippling.

0:13:32.4 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:13:34.4 Chad: A Delaware corporation, is the plaintiff in Deel Inc., a Delaware corporation. Go figure. Uh, and does one. Yeah. And okay, and here those are the... They are the defendants. Get through that.

0:13:45.2 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:13:47.2 Chad: The complaint outlines, number one, violation of Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization. That... This is a RICO case. Now, if anybody has watched any movies in the United States, RICO always comes up with mobster and gang films.

0:14:00.6 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:14:01.6 Chad: RICO. Okay, so number one's RICO. Number two, conspiracy to violate RICO. Number three, misappropriation of trade secrets under Defined Trade Secrets Act. Number four, misappropriation of trade secrets under California Uniform Trade Secrets Act. Number five, tortious inference with contract. Number six, aiding and abetting breach of fiduciary duty. And last but not least, seven, unfair competition from the California Business and Professional Code. So, as you'd said, Joel, the spy was named and was not named in the document, but the Irish Independent ran a story entitled.

0:14:41.4 Joel: Mm-hmm.

0:14:42.4 Chad: Irish Employee Accused of Spying and Corporate Espionage by software giant admits destroying his phone at center of claim and title. That's a long fucking title.

[chuckle]

0:14:48.8 Chad: Uh, and in the story, the publication made the name Keith O'Brien as the... The Rippling employee that turned spy.

0:14:59.6 JT: Yep.

0:15:00.0 Chad: So the... The first thing I want to talk about is how they caught him, okay?

0:15:05.6 JT: Mm-hmm

0:15:08.4 Chad: And the evidence, because I think that's the biggest key is like, let's talk about the evidence real quick. So number one, and we'll chunk this out. Digital forensic evidence from the Slack logs, quotes, and this is directly from the case. "Uh, Rippling Slack logs show that O'Brien began... Began searching and accessing Rippling Slack channels at an unprecedented rate beginning in or around early November 2024. Notably, O'Brien searched the term, 'Deel' approximately 23 times a day." And I was on page 17 for anybody who was looking.

0:15:44.0 JT: Nothing fishy about that at all.

0:15:45.6 Chad: So, yeah.

0:15:47.9 Joel: Yeah.

0:15:49.9 Chad: Umm, to me, this is crazy because we've been hearing how companies are already, uh, monitoring Slack.

0:15:54.2 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:15:56.2 Chad: And all these different channels just to be able to see who actually has activity going on. You would think basically...

0:16:01.0 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:16:04.5 Chad: That anything that you were doing to search history, monitoring or anything like that, would be seen within the system.

0:16:09.9 JT: Yeah, we don't know if they were monitoring it or not. As far... As I understand it... It was... It was kind of fishy. He was... He was kind of...

[overlapping conversation]

0:16:18.9 JT: They were a little bit suspicious of him.

0:16:20.0 Chad: Yeah.

0:16:22.0 JT: For whatever reason and then started looking at his shit and seeing stuff like Deel searches and 6000 searches over. So then they... They... They made up this hashtag.

0:16:30.4 Chad: Honeypot.

0:16:31.4 JT: It was a honeypot. They honeypotted his ass.

0:16:33.3 Chad: Yeah.

[laughter]

0:16:36.8 JT: The virtual... The virtual equivalent of like a bottle of Guinness.

[laughter]

0:16:42.0 JT: I don't know for an Irishman. But he... He caught on and things they were putting in this feed started like showing up in real life. So they knew that he had to be the one that was doing it and... And got himself pinched. But he was basically on the sales process. They were saying everything that they were... Like, it's very, very tracked what's go... What goes on in the sales process. And this is kind of a negative around all this intelligence that we're collecting.

0:17:03.4 Chad: Okay.

0:17:07.6 JT: Recording phone calls, recording everything. Like...

0:17:10.2 Chad: And access.

0:17:11.7 JT: It's very easy to find out.

0:17:12.2 Joel: Everything is there. Yeah.

0:17:13.2 Chad: Yeah.

0:17:18.2 JT: Who's in the funnel, who's close to being sold, like, what's going on. And he was telling Deel sales team, hey, we're really close to this, like getting this company closed. You should focus on them. And they don't like... Like, so he was feeding us all back to sales. And I'm sure the sales people were like, man, this is a weird trend where everyone we're selling gets a call.

0:17:32.9 Joel: Deel is dropping out. You know.

0:17:34.0 JT: From Deel like that same week that they're about to sign with us. Umm, and then... And then got himself trapped and caught.

0:17:38.6 Chad: Yeah. Well, in... In... It being in sales, you... We've... You've pretty much always had access to this kind of data in the CRMs. Uh, you can go into Salesforce or something like that.

0:17:50.1 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:17:52.1 Chad: And actually just look up history.

0:17:55.4 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:17:56.1 Chad: In this case, I think it just made a stream of information. And what you're talking about, the honeypot itself.

0:17:58.4 JT: Yep.

0:17:59.2 Chad: This... This is... This is the funny part. So Rip... Rippling's General Counsel sent a letter to Deel senior leadership. And this is how they know Deel senior leadership is involved, identifying recently established, uh, Slack channel called Defectors.

0:18:12.2 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:18:12.5 Chad: Right. So as soon as that hit Deel senior leadership, then O'Brien went to go find the... The Slack channel. So that was the whole honeypot. So just hours after Rippling sent the letter, hours...

0:18:26.4 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:18:29.0 Chad: Uh, to uh, executives and counsel, that's when O'Brien went after it. And that's when they supposed allegedly caught him in the honeypot.

0:18:30.5 JT: Yeah.

0:18:32.8 Chad: Running.

[chuckle]

0:18:41.4 JT: And then does the... Does the... Does the complaint talk about the bathroom? Locking himself in the bathroom, deleting files from the phone.

0:18:46.6 Chad: Destroying. Destroying.

0:18:48.3 JT: Destroying.

0:18:48.8 Chad: Yeah.

[overlapping conversation]

0:18:49.7 Speaker 5: Did he actually destroy it though? Or was that umm, allegedly destroyed?

0:18:52.9 Chad: Yeah, no, he did. And he's even...

0:18:55.4 Speaker 5: Yeah, okay.

0:18:56.4 Chad: He's even said that... That he did. Umm, the... The interesting thing is though, is he has been... I mean... Okay, so this is, uh, was, has been a poaching scheme apparently or allegedly from Deel.

0:19:02.8 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:19:06.0 Chad: Where they've been calling many... Many Rippling, uh, employees.

0:19:12.3 JT: Yeah.

0:19:17.0 Chad: And uh, how did they get... How did they get the information, uh, to be able to WhatsApp individuals directly?

0:19:20.8 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:19:24.1 Chad: Well, between January 29th and February 17th of 2025, at least 17 members of Rippling's global payroll operations team was contacted about similar jobs at Deel.

0:19:35.8 Joel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:19:37.6 Chad: And at least 10 reported receiving offers from Deel. So somebody had to have internal information around employees, personal phone numbers and those types of things to be able to have Deel contact those individuals via WhatsApp. And again, all alleged. All alleged.

[chuckle]

0:19:54.2 Speaker 5: I can't wait to see this fold out. I... I think it's fascinating, you know.

0:19:57.3 Chad: Mm-hmm.

0:19:59.7 Speaker 5: Because when I first heard about it, it kind of, do you know like when you're watching like a Netflix movie? Yeah.

0:20:00.5 Chad: Yeah.

0:20:03.5 Speaker 5: This is... This is what this is. This is like, and I... I really feel like give it like five years, this is going to be a Netflix documentary or a movie. And... And I was thinking about it earlier today. I was thinking, what would it be called? You know, maybe The Spy That Searched Too Much, you know. And then you can manage. You see, I've been thinking about this for quite a while. You get that...

[overlapping conversation]

0:20:21.7 Chad: Espionage in the toilet.

0:20:23.5 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, exactly. You know, that you get a voiceover trailer. There's nothing bog standard about this bombshell. Loose suit. You know? See, I... I... I think I'm hilarious.

[laughter]

0:20:35.0 Speaker 5: I was like, I obviously had too much time on my hands today. But I... I... I think it's fascinating. And like you said, there's so many questions out there. There's like, how about how this happened? You know, how secure is this organization? Like you said, this CRM has so much data on there. And it did take a while. I know they did this kind of honey trap, but, you know, how did it take so long? Why did it take... Umm, why didn't Rippling notice earlier that there was a mole accessing their sales data? You know, because he said that's 23 times a day. You know, they waited..

0:21:01.1 JT: Do...

0:21:04.4 Speaker 5: A long time.

0:21:04.9 JT: Do we know how long?

0:21:05.1 Chad: We don't know the specific time.

0:21:06.2 JT: Yeah, we don't know if... If they know how long it was. I mean...

0:21:08.0 Chad: From November...

0:21:10.2 JT: I got a question. I got a question.

0:21:11.7 Chad: From November last year to February.

0:21:13.7 JT: I mean, that's what they hear.

0:21:15.6 Chad: That's what... That's where they have, that's when they have tracked back to, uh, all of the search data that actually a...

0:21:22.2 JT: Okay.

0:21:24.2 Chad: Again, is... Is in the complaint. So it was...

0:21:26.3 JT: Yeah.

0:21:27.3 Chad: I mean, it actually happened pretty quick. I mean, we're talking about November of last year, uh, not even six months.

0:21:30.1 Speaker 5: Still quick. Yeah.

0:21:30.9 JT: I have a question Deel's taste in spies....

0:21:33.3 Chad: But he was able to collect enough evidence.

0:21:34.6 Joel: Yeah.

0:21:35.4 JT: Like Deel... Deel doesn't have very good taste in spies.

[overlapping conversation]

0:21:41.5 JT: This guy was not. This was not James Bond in the... In the halls of Rippling.

[overlapping conversation]

0:21:45.7 Speaker 5: Well, you never know. And is this guy, is he working for Deel directly? Like, is he working for both, like actively...

0:21:48.8 JT: We don't...

0:21:49.8 Speaker 5: Hired by Deel.

0:21:50.7 JT: We don't know.

0:21:52.7 Speaker 5: Or is he just rogue?

0:21:53.9 Chad: Yeah,

0:21:55.2 JT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think he was on the payroll. Why should he say that.

[overlapping conversation]

0:21:59.3 JT: Well, it's interesting. It gets... Because Deel, you remember we talked about making payments to companies that were, let's say, not on the up and up with their business models.

0:22:09.0 Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

0:22:09.6 JT: And so does Deel have like an under the radar way to pay people that this guy was getting checks from Deel but aren't trackable to Deel? I mean...

0:22:18.4 Chad: Correct.

0:22:18.9 JT: We don't... We don't know.

0:22:21.0 Chad: Yeah, maybe.

0:22:21.4 JT: I did hear that. I did read it. I think that he... He... There is some correspondence with one of the co-founders of Deel and this guy. Umm, I think it's... It's really close to a smoking gun. Like this guy, without going to court, this shit happened. Like this... This definitely happened.

[overlapping conversation]

0:22:42.3 JT: And if anyone knows about... If anyone knows about like deceit.

[laughter]

0:22:47.1 JT: It's our man, uh, you know, it's our man Parker. Uh, you probably remember Zenefits.

[laughter]

0:22:50.2 JT: Umm, Parker Conrad, CEO, uh, he had an ADP defamation suit back in 2015, uh, during my homework, which was... Uh, which was dismissed apparently. But like, this guy know, like, if anyone's gonna see that something's going wrong or somebody's maybe doing spying on us, it's Parker Conrad because...

[laughter]

0:23:16.9 JT: This guy probably does it himself. Umm, allegedly, allegedly.

0:23:18.4 Chad: Allegedly.

0:23:19.4 JT: I don't want him to come out at me with any... Anything. But like, this is incredible. Uh, I would say if this were like Uber and Lyft or Coke and Pepsi.

0:23:25.3 Speaker 5: Yeah.

0:23:27.3 JT: It would be a Netflix, uh, special, but Rippling and Deel, I don't know. HR Tech is...

0:23:28.6 Speaker 5: [0:23:31.1] ____ Obviously getting exciting now, you know.

0:23:32.9 Chad: Well, yeah, and they're bringing Russia into the conversation, right? So it... It in Rippling saying this is a misdirection. Uh, O'Brien first searched the term Russia on February 12th, 2025. And from February and from February 27th, he had searched it. So the 12th to the 27th, he searched the term Russia 157 times on average. So about nine times a day. It's page 27 of the complaint. O'Brien first searched the term OFAC, which is the Office of Foreign Assets Control, a regulator responsible for sanctions controls. On February 17th through the 27th, he searched OFAC 42 times. So he was looking for things to dig up to be able to see if there was any trail that he could get gain access to, uh, around companies who were Russian companies who were sanctioned and they were getting paid, uh, through Deel... Through Deel operate or I'm sorry, through my bad. Rippling conversations.

0:24:36.8 Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

0:24:38.8 Chad: And uh... And Rippling's just saying this is a misdirection. They want you to think Russia, Russia, Russia.

0:24:44.8 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:24:46.8 Chad: Uh, and uh, there's nothing to see here. So they're... They're... They're going to be two two sides of this. It's going to be incredibly it not to say they're not both right or wrong, but we'll... We'll sit back and we'll enjoy.

0:24:54.9 JT: Any guesses on how this ends? I was talking to somebody in Vegas that says this could be the end of Deel's business. I think that's a little dramatic. They've raised a lot of money. Umm, but any... Any guesses on how this thing ends?

0:25:06.9 Speaker 5: Well, that guy's going to jail for a start.

[laughter]

0:25:11.8 Speaker 5: You know, I know that he said, what was it he said? Yeah, I think someone ordered him not to delete... The solicitor ordered him not to delete anything from his phone. And he said, I'm willing to take that risk.

0:25:20.4 JT: Yeah.

0:25:21.4 Speaker 5: He's like, you take that risk and you're going to jail. It's like, you're gonna be the fall guy. So that's I... I'm 100% sure that that's going to happen.

0:25:25.1 JT: And that that's in real spy world.

0:25:29.0 Chad: Yeah.

0:25:30.0 JT: Like if... If you get caught.

0:25:32.0 Chad: Yeah.

0:25:33.0 JT: Sort of you're on your own. Like we're not culpable for this...

[overlapping conversation]

0:25:34.5 JT: This case is Deel has no connection to this guy at all.

0:25:38.8 Speaker 5: Yeah.

0:25:40.8 JT: There's no nothing in the records and he just... This guy's fucked.

0:25:42.3 Speaker 5: Yeah.

0:25:43.3 JT: And Deel... Deel walks away unscathed.

0:25:45.4 Chad: And If they can find pay... If they can find somewhere in the Bahamas or something like that...

0:25:48.3 Speaker 5: Some kind of money trail.

0:25:53.3 Chad: That there were payments. Yeah, there were payments. Uh, just another reason why I fucking hate Bitcoin and crypto because it is...

[laughter]

0:26:01.2 Chad: It's I mean, it this is... What this is for, right?

0:26:04.4 Speaker 5: Yeah.

0:26:06.4 Chad: That's what cryptocurrency literally will help you launder money.

0:26:07.1 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:26:09.1 Chad: It'll help you pay people. I mean, we're even seeing it, you know, in the... In the US government for God's sakes, with all these fucking meme coins and shit. It's it's ridiculous.

0:26:14.4 JT: Yeah. I mean, this kind of thing happens all the time in history. Like the KFC, uh, recipe. I know they tried to steal that. Coke recipes under lock and key.

0:26:25.2 Chad: Mm-hmm.

0:26:27.2 JT: And so this does happen, uh, to varying degrees of punishment. But umm, I'd say worst case, if they can prove that sales were lost from Deel.

0:26:34.5 Chad: Yeah.

0:26:36.5 JT: And say like the average customer is seven years old. So we lost this much per customer.

0:26:39.6 Chad: Mm-hmm.

0:26:40.6 JT: And you guys owe us this.

[overlapping conversation]

0:26:42.1 JT: Umm, let me give you the numbers real quick because I was curious if you... If you go head to head with these guys. So... So by the numbers, Deel, uh, is at 800 million ARR versus 570 million, uh, for Rippling. Uh, valuations are really, really close. Uh, 13.5 billion at Rippling, 12 billion billion at Deel. Uh, headcount, you've got 5000 employees at Deel, 3000, umm, at Rippling. And currently Deel is profitable, umm, with 21 million in profits. And Rippling is still, uh, burning cash. So that's a little bit by the numbers. Does this make you feel less positive about Deel as a consumer? Do you think that's going to impact their brand? Or do you think this will go, uh, sort of...

0:27:26.3 Chad: Here's... Here's the hard part. And I actually talked to a couple of HR practitioners, uh, this week, and about this. I'm like, don't you, this is crazy, right? And it always came down to... And I'm not... And again, this is very anecdotal. I had a handful of people that I really had deep conversations with about this. And umm, they said, this looks worse for Rippling. And I was like, why? And they said, Parker Conrad, umm, he's known, uh, as a guy who, you know, over the years, Zenefits, ADP.

0:27:55.6 JT: Sure.

0:27:57.6 Chad: I mean, there's just this optics piece.

0:27:58.0 JT: Shady.

0:27:59.2 Chad: That he is shady. Whether he is or whether he isn't. From an optic standpoint, you can't deny what people are saying. And... And was actually talking to one of those, those, uh, practitioners. And they said, yeah, they're currently actually talking with Rippling and they're going to break talks, umm, because they just can't trust what's going on. Now, Rippling again, they're the ones who are saying that Deel's in the wrong, right?

0:28:17.9 JT: Right.

0:28:26.3 Chad: But yet Rippling in this... And again, literally half dozen conversations at the most. So not, uh, not a huge sample size.

0:28:30.0 JT: Not a scientific.

0:28:30.4 Chad: Not a huge sample size, but when you start talking about this and it... It's just... It's weird. It really is. It's like from an optic standpoint. Okay, yeah, we're just going to go ahead and shut down talks with... With Rippling. Wait till this happens or go in another direction.

0:28:48.2 JT: When I saw the headline...

0:28:50.0 Speaker 5: Okay.

0:28:51.3 JT: My... I went, I immediately went to, what did Parker fucking do this time? Like, what did that shady motherfucker do now? And then I was like, oh, wait, Deel is the one that fucked up?

[overlapping conversation]

0:29:03.0 JT: Like, holy shit. So if you just read the headline...

0:29:03.7 Chad: Yeah.

0:29:06.8 JT: You could totally just say, like, oh, shit, the dude's... The dude's at it again.

0:29:10.4 Chad: Here we go.

0:29:12.4 JT: Rippling is doing some shady shit...

[overlapping conversation]

0:29:13.6 JT: And they're the ones that get hurt in this.

0:29:14.6 Chad: Yeah.

0:29:15.6 JT: That's really interesting.

0:29:17.4 Chad: So in this next clip, I really don't believe we can bring enough attention to the greedy corporate welfare kings and queens over at Randstad. Let's go ahead and dig in.

0:29:25.8 JT: Monster France announced its closure in Europe this week, impacting 200 plus employees. As shareholders of, uh, Randstad, uh, owned 49% of the company and Apollo owns 51%. Uh, they withdrew funding for the post-2024 CareerBuilder joint venture. Uh, despite a 2016 Randstad acquisition and a 2027 employee support agreement. Uh, no severance or reclassification has been offered with public funds covering costs. Uh, Randstad denies responsibility, citing minority ownership status at 49%, while executives received $1.2 million in bonuses and 5 million euros in bonuses back in 2024. Employees demand ethical accountability, criticizing the use of public funds and a lack of support. Chad, you've been reading up on this and have an opinion. What you got?

0:30:19.1 Chad: So this is... There is so much fucking around on this one, and who... People... Who got fucked on this. And there were so many that my brain was scrambled this morning. I had to break it up into three sections. So the first section, we're just going to talk about, uh, the... The employees in one chain. So, but first, let's talk about Randstad, who actually came out yesterday touting, reporting revenue of $5.8 billion last quarter. Quarter underlying EBITDA of, uh, 171 million euros, uh, and an EBITDA margin of 3%. So it sounds great, right? Yeah. Well, that's amazing if you're a stockholder, but if you... But how is Randstad treating their actual workers? Like, you know, Monster employees that have worked for Monster for decades in some respect. Some of my friends who've been there for 20 years, and not just in the US, but as you had said, Joel, all over the... All over the world and even in France. So, uh, this lovely lady over at the Job Board Doctor, she's the sexiest doctor ever. She wrote an article. Ah... Uh, and the... "In documents reviewed by the Job Board Doctor team, effective, uh, June 22nd, 2025, Monster dramatically rewrote its terms of separation just days before slashing sales and marketing positions in multiple locations."

0:31:51.0 Chad: So just before they got ready to do a mass layoff, this is what their change was. The old version prior to, uh, June 2022, or 22, 22nd, uh, one and a half weeks base pay per year of service, right? And the minimum was two weeks. Maximum was 16 weeks. Okay, so you got 16 weeks if you were there and that was the max. New, improved, let's fuck our employees version, two weeks base pay period. That's all you get. Doesn't matter if you were there for 20 years. Doesn't matter if you're there for one year. Everybody got the same. So, like, think about this, listener. If you make $2000 per week with the old policy, that'd be $32,000. And then the new policy is 4000, right? That many years.

0:32:49.9 Joel: That's not okay.

0:32:50.0 Chad: Two weeks versus... Versus two weeks, right?

[overlapping conversation]

0:32:52.4 Chad: That's a $28,000 difference. How would you like losing that amount of cash, right? Not just for you, but also for your family, right? And that's what they're going through. Just let that sink in. $28,000 lost because the company knows it's going to lay you and many others off in... In the next couple of days.

0:33:10.6 Joel: So disgusting.

0:33:11.7 Chad: That's the... That's the first segment. I'll let you guys marinate and talk that through before we get to the next segment.

0:33:17.6 Moe: Doing something in my body, doing something in my body hearing about this. So I... I... I'm bracing myself.

0:33:24.3 JT: You know, this sounded very non-French.

[laughter]

0:33:30.3 JT: Uh, because Europe is very....

0:33:31.0 Chad: This is... I mean, this... This is mainly, this part right here is mainly on the US side. The French stuff in some cases is even far worse.

0:33:35.7 Moe: That's right. Right.

0:33:37.8 S?: Oh, my God. Yes.

0:33:42.3 JT: Right. So they basically engineered an ownership, uh, setup where 49% means you're off the hook for all of this shit, uh, from public funding to treating employees like this. They've engineered it to where they can lay it on Apollo, uh, US company. It's not our fault. Umm, and I'd say a lot of people aren't falling for the banana in the tailpipe.

0:34:05.3 Chad: No.

0:34:05.9 JT: Uh, I would... Does... How the French government doesn't get involved in this in some way, uh, would be kind of surprising to me. Umm, but this is so hard because our... Our industry is about people. Our whole thing is treat people well, retention.

0:34:22.7 Joel: Mm-hmm.

0:34:27.8 JT: Uh, like, that's what we preach to all, all of our businesses, all of our customers. Like, we... We repeat that in our sleep, and then we do shit like this, and it makes us look like assholes. It's awful for everybody. I know it's sort of like, oh, well, it sucks to be them. But this, this bleeds into everything.

0:34:43.5 Joel: Yeah.

0:34:44.5 JT: We're supposed to be the people business. We're supposed to be the take care of ourselves and everybody amongst us.

0:34:47.5 Joel: Mm-hmm.

0:34:49.6 JT: And we fall flat every week, and it just pisses me off.

0:34:50.9 Chad: Yeah.

0:34:51.0 Moe: Beautifully put.

0:34:53.0 Joel: Yeah.

0:34:53.2 Moe: I share your ire.

0:34:55.8 Chad: Okay, let's go ahead and dive into the next one, because that was... Uh, that wasn't bad enough. Meanwhile, how did, uh, Randstad treat Monsters abroad? So here's a comment from Xavier Hamlin on Randstad's new numbers announcement. He actually made this comment on LinkedIn. There's something deeply indecent, Mr. Sander van 't Noordende. I don't know how to say his last name, and I don't give a fuck. He's the CEO of Randstad. Uh, about posting this kind of publication, talking about the amount of money that they're making...

[overlapping conversation]

0:35:31.6 Chad: While hundreds of employees across Europe are being brutally laid off without recognition, without real support, and not even a word. Yes, your numbers are solid. Yes, your EBITDA meets expectations, but at what cost? At the cost of brutal disengagement, of a rushed liquidation of teams who have been committed for 10, 15, sometimes 20 years. Monster, Monster France was a compass in the HR ecosystem at one time. A company that stood for much more than figures. You believed it, you brought us in, then sold us, and now it's a dry shutdown without regard. Uh, it's great to have the best team in the industry, but such a team deserves to be treated that way in the end. Uh, and we also have a video from Matteo, uh, Matteo Nicolo, who is the director or was a director of International EU Sales at Monster. This is what, uh, Matteo had to say.

0:36:31.8 Matteo Nicolo: Hi, I'm Matteo Nicolo, Secretary of the Workers Council at Monster in France, where I've worked for many years. And today we want to expose a deep injustice happening at Monster in Europe. This is not just about a shameful shutdown. It's about powerful shareholders abandoning their social responsibilities. Until 10 months ago, Monster was fully owned by Randstad, which meant respect for collective agreement and protections for workers in case of economic layoffs. Then Randstad decided to reduce its stake to 49% by partnering with the private equity firm Apollo. And just nine months later, they are dismantling the company, pushing into Chapter 11 and shutting down the European business. Subsidiaries are being liquidated. Shareholders refuse to pay salaries or legal severance and instead rely on public funds to support workers left stranded. Meanwhile, uh, global management from Monster has asked a US court for $1.2 million protection in transaction award plan for a few unnamed people. So we have on one side the world's top staffing firm, on the other, a very successful private equity company seeking European taxpayers' help to partially cover what they owe workers, as they will only get a fraction of what is due.

0:37:46.8 Matteo Nicolo: Right now, we can pay July salaries, but August wages are at risk in many countries. Randstad hides behind its minority shareholder status of 49%, refusing to act, all while promoting human forward values and boasting to be the most equitable company. And yesterday, they also announced record solid profits. This is not just about money, it's about ethics. We are demanding Randstad to take responsibility because what's legal isn't always right. And there is a clear injustice we're fighting against. Thank you.

0:38:19.9 JT: You see the look.

0:38:20.2 Chad: Thanks, Matteo. He's...

0:38:20.7 JT: He looked what that looked like a nice location.

0:38:22.9 Moe: Nice setup.

[overlapping conversation]

0:38:23.4 Chad: What is... What is legal is not always right.

0:38:30.7 Moe: Well, I love that... That was a good mic drop.

0:38:32.8 Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and also talking about how, you know, French taxpayers are going to be holding the bag.

0:38:40.1 Moe: It's insane.

0:38:44.1 Chad: This is corporate welfare that we see in the US. All the time. It's one of those bailout situations, uh, when you knew... When you knew that you were going to run out of money.

0:38:53.2 Moe: Yeah.

0:38:55.2 Chad: Umm, and the next piece and the last piece, kids, in my dissection of all this fucking shit that's happening is what about the vendor community, right?

0:39:06.9 Moe: Mm-hmm. Good point.

0:39:08.8 Chad: Companies that provide resources and services that... That probably won't get paid millions of dollars back. Monster and CareerBuilder ran up bills they knew they couldn't pay. And here's a quick timeline of one vendor that I talked to this morning. On May 22nd, email out, uh, to a... To uh, the vendor actually emailed to to Monster looking for more insight, specifically whether it was going to, it was having issues paying its invoices due to merging overhead or deeper financial concerns. Monster came back, confirmed that everything was fine. They'll provide more clarity. They came back with more clarity saying that they'll get... Uh, they'll get the oldest invoices. And this is in May, December invoices, February invoices. Right, so they're... They're in the rear, uh, not in a good way. Umm, and May 23rd, Monster provided an update to the oldest invoices and said that the other invoices would be paid in June. So this is late May. And nearly a month later, they're in Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization, right?

0:40:09.1 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:40:13.0 Chad: They wrote checks their asses couldn't pay.

0:40:15.7 Moe: Yes.

0:40:16.6 Chad: Umm, now, you'll notice during this entire block, Matteo mentioned it, but I haven't mentioned Apollo, because Apollo is a PE firm that sucks companies dry from... From every industry. But Randstad...

0:40:25.8 Moe: PE does best.

0:40:29.5 Chad: Yeah, Randstad. They're a leader in our industry. And they chose to fuck over taxpayers, vendors, employees all over the globe to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. And until we see a CEO like Mr. Sander van 't Noordende or Jeff Furman in an orange jumpsuit, the hard-working people of this world will continue to get proper fucked. Hopefully, Monster and CareerBuilder employees will continue sharing information and stories out there and get louder, umm, that this all dies in the dark. So we got to make fucking noise.

0:41:05.0 Moe: Yeah. It's really true. A mess.

0:41:06.8 Speaker 8: So you get nothing. You lose.

0:41:08.8 Moe: Such a mess.

0:41:09.2 Speaker 8: Good day, sir.

0:41:12.4 JT: Look, Randstad has an army of lawyers. They knew what they were doing. They knew that they would probably be cleared if it does, if there's a lawsuit, they'll probably drown in paper. If you want change, if you're a Randstad customer, if you're a vendor, uh, employee of shareholder, you know, money talks, you know, uh, go somewhere else, take your business elsewhere, uh, sell your stock and buy something else. Like, that's really the only, uh, ammunition I think we have to make change.

[overlapping conversation]

0:41:41.1 JT: Yeah. Be it be a pain in the ass if you're a Randstad customer...

[overlapping conversation]

0:41:45.0 JT: And ask, why in the hell did this happen?

0:41:46.4 Chad: So in 2025, Job.com's problems took center stage as executives rolled around in expensive cars while employees worked their asses off. And well, go ahead and just roll the clip.

0:41:59.8 JT: We learned this week you might have to take some sensitivity training. Uh, you... You've ruffled... Ruffled some feathers because some of the things you said about Job.com's uh, bankruptcy last week, which I was not on, uh, had... Uh, had their co-founder Aaron Stewart a bit distraught. Uh, after almost a year off LinkedIn, he posted, "I don't condone the use of the company's challenges as a form of gaining views, likes or attention, but podcast shows like the above, meaning you and me, are here just for that reason." You're such a whore for attention, Chad. You want those clicks and likes. You've had quite a few messages from the good folks at, uh, present and past from Job.com.

0:42:41.1 Chad: Yeah.

0:42:42.1 JT: What you got?

0:42:44.3 Chad: So, it's... It's really interesting because there's... There are a lot of people that say like, you know, you're trying to sensationalize things and umm, in this... In this case specifically, umm, it's bankruptcy, right?

0:42:54.8 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:42:58.2 Chad: And there are people that are going to be hurt. Uh, we talked about Monster and CareerBuilder and their bankruptcy. We talked about who they owe. There are debtors. There are unsecured debtors and there are secured debtors, right? So we talked about that on last week's show, Emmy and I did.

0:43:11.7 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:43:14.4 Chad: Uh, and then we talked about the prospect of a buyer. And who would that buyer possibly be? Well, they're creating another company.

0:43:21.2 JT: Yep.

0:43:23.6 Chad: To buy job... Job.com. So literally, you're going into bankruptcy to be able to scrub everything clean and all the people that you owe money to are getting fucked. And more than likely, the people that you work for, right? Not all of them, maybe. Maybe you get to... To keep some of them, but they get fucked too. And then you get to buy the company assets back.

0:43:42.9 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:43:43.4 Chad: For cheaper and then just continue to to do operations. To me, that does not feel right. So that's not sensationalizing anything. That's just telling the fucking truth.

0:43:52.2 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:43:54.9 Chad: Of what is... At least what they're looking to from a stalking horse standpoint happen. Umm, so, yeah, and I think, and this is one where I really want to challenge anybody who says this, umm, when it comes to attention, that was... That post was actually created to... To... To try to talk to us about gaining attention. Well, we should provide the attention where it's due and it's due here because this shit shouldn't happen. And when people are owed money, it shouldn't happen. Since then, since then, I have been on the phone, I have been chatting, I've been on Messenger. When we started this, I was actually on the fucking phone with somebody. Umm, and so this is from... From Aaron's post. "I'm here to console those that maybe feel... Are feeling lost, frustrated, saddened by all that has happened. Whether you've worked with us, partnered with us, or just in the industry," right? So it's all flowery.

0:44:54.5 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:44:54.9 Chad: And it's all... But it says... It says nothing because it's... It's interesting because I have, and it's actually out there in public as comments.

0:45:00.0 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:45:05.7 Chad: Employees are asking for their 2024, last year, W2s. They don't have them. They can't file their taxes. They can't receive tax returns. They can't use that money or pay bills. Everything that he said in that had nothing to do with the actual people. He said family. He posted a picture of his family in an airport getting ready to go on vacation.

0:45:24.7 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:45:27.3 Chad: These people can't fucking afford that. These people are looking for their tax return dollars, right? Umm, and then you start to go down kind of like the rabbit hole of, well, if the... If a company can't provide the W2, there's tax withholdings, right?

0:45:47.1 JT: Yeah.

0:45:48.1 Chad: So you have tax withholdings, you have 401k withholdings.

0:45:50.6 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:45:51.6 Chad: Right? You have HSA, you have child support, you have all these different things that can be withheld from an organization. Now, that's the record of it to the federal government. So you can show them, hey, look, I'm paying my taxes.

0:46:06.0 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:46:06.3 Chad: Can I get a return or maybe I need to pay a little bit. But this is something that we have to do, right? These people can't do that. And uh, to me, making it about yourself, posting a picture with you and your lovely little girls and your lovely family, I... I think that's really cute, but that is not the point.

0:46:26.3 JT: Yeah.

0:46:26.5 Chad: You're getting ready to go on a vacation where a lot of these people, they're not going to be able to fucking afford it. And they don't want to be under possibly the thumb of the IRS, right? And you know, a phrase that Aaron likes to say, uh, you know, is all will be revealed.

[chuckle]

0:46:51.9 Chad: Well, there are a lot of conversations and actually things that I've been hearing about happening, you know, behind closed doors.

0:46:54.9 JT: Yeah.

0:46:55.4 Chad: Umm, that... That I've been able to actually listen into. Umm, and I think all will be revealed. I think he's a... I think he's 100% right.

0:47:03.3 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:47:06.1 Chad: Umm, just not in the way he might be thinking they will be revealed. So, you know, just in response, this is not about attention. When you see somebody... Something or somebody doing something wrong in the industry, we talk about how Indeed does stupid shit.

0:47:18.1 JT: Yeah.

0:47:19.1 Chad: And we make fun of them, right?

0:47:21.1 JT: Yeah.

0:47:22.1 Chad: This is incredibly different. This is owing bankruptcy, umm, perspectively hurting, uh, vendors in our industry, which we talked about with Monster and CareerBuilder, right?

0:47:34.2 JT: Yeah.

0:47:35.2 Chad: So this is not something where we're picking on job.com.

0:47:36.6 JT: Yeah.

0:47:38.6 Chad: This is where we are shining a light and trying to add a little disinfectant to the fucking conversation.

0:47:43.8 JT: Amen. Uh, look, we're... We're... We're a couple of meatheads. Uh, you know, this is... This is an attention game, but we don't make up the news. We don't make up the court filings.

0:47:54.0 Chad: Yeah.

0:47:56.0 JT: We don't make up lawsuits and, and layoffs.

0:47:57.0 Chad: Mm-hmm.

0:47:58.0 JT: And I mean, that's... You may or may not like what we say about it, but we're not making the shit up. Uh, we're talking about our opinion of of what goes on. And uh, you know, we... We have come across in our time, uh, quite a few from carnival barkers to shysters to straight-out criminals. I'm not putting them in... In any particular bucket.

0:48:17.1 Chad: No.

0:48:20.0 JT: But someone, uh, someone is probably going to do a deep dive on this operation and reveal a lot of really interesting things. I think you've been bombarded, umm, in the past week or so of... Of past employees, investors, people that have been acquired. Like there's a lot of shit going on here and it's not just smoke. There's got to be some fire. And between bankruptcy lawsuits, uh, who knows what's going to come down the pike.

0:48:40.2 Chad: There's a ton of fucking [0:48:41.6] ____.

[overlapping conversation]

0:48:43.4 JT: This stuff will be revealed. It's it's not... It's not for. I have better things to do than investigate Job.com. What's going on. But I... I can tell you, we're not making this shit up. These are public records. These are things going on. These are things still in the court. Umm, look, there's a lot of diversion going on. You know, there's a lot of like, don't look at this over here, look at me. And I'm... I'm a. He's Scottish, right? He's kind of like, I'm a fun Scottish guy.

0:49:05.9 Chad: No, he's... He's... He's English.

0:49:06.0 JT: I got a great family.

0:49:10.4 Chad: He's English.

0:49:11.1 JT: He's English. Okay. Sorry, sorry, Scots. Didn't mean to do that to you.

[overlapping conversation]

0:49:15.3 JT: Yeah, sorry to sorry, Scots. I mean, look, uh, this shit will be revealed, but I mean, from what we know in terms... I mean, in addition to to the public record stuff. He's got another co-founder. Look, if you look... If you go to Glassdoor, uh, Paul Sloyan, uh, who I don't think we've ever talked to.

0:49:32.4 Chad: No.

0:49:35.8 JT: Uh, is... Is CEO currently. He has... He has a 4% rating on Glassdoor. 4...

0:49:39.9 Chad: Holy shit.

0:49:41.5 JT: 4%. Okay. Uh, only 8% of the... Of the employees would recommend working at Job.com.

0:49:45.0 Chad: Yeah.

0:49:49.3 JT: Uh, a ton of comments about they don't pay employees, uh, commissions are not paid. Again, this... You know, this is on Glassdoor. This is not us making it up. You can take it for what it's worth, but all the signs and Chad, you and I have been around this game a long time. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, uh, it's probably a duck. And there's some shit going on here. Uh, hopefully it'll come out at some point. Umm, but look, I would, uh... I would, I would buyer beware on anything Job.com that's going on, whether you're an employee investor, uh, looking to buy their services, because this thing, this thing stinks to high heaven.

0:50:30.5 Chad: And again, we're taking a look at all of this, and again... Uh, from... From the standpoint of just being able to ensure that companies, listeners, umm, and hopefully the... The real information comes out. I'm getting information like, umm, uh, case files and those things...

0:50:50.6 JT: Sure.

0:50:54.2 Chad: That are actually pushed to me all over the place. I'm getting more information, umm, but I'm... I'm also reaching out to journalists so that they can do their jobs.

0:50:57.9 JT: Yeah.

0:51:00.7 Chad: And they have different connections to be able to do that too. Because it is most important to me that if there is impropriety, we don't know that there is yet, right?

0:51:09.4 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:51:09.8 Chad: But if there is propriety, that is, it is sussed out.

0:51:13.6 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:51:16.0 Chad: So that it doesn't happen again. Because again, the employees, not the ones driving Ferraris...

0:51:20.0 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:51:20.4 Chad: Not the ones who are taking, uh, you know, vacations, uh, with their kids, the ones who can't afford that stuff, the ones that are doing the hard work.

0:51:29.0 JT: Yeah.

0:51:30.0 Chad: They deserve not to have to go through that shit, right? The next round of people who could prospectively be suckered into something like that. Umm, and again, all things will be revealed. Everything could be clean and great, or not. We'll... We'll find out. We will find out.

[overlapping conversation]

0:51:48.0 JT: I suspect... I suspect when the lights are turned on, there's gonna be a lot of roaches scurrying for... For safer, safer places. Uh, I mean...

[overlapping conversation]

0:51:58.6 JT: Not since Jobster, if we're going way back. I mean, when I...

0:52:02.8 Chad: Oh. Jesus.

0:52:04.8 JT: When I did a little bit of of stuff on Jobster, I mean, people came out of the woodwork. Umm, it's kind of like when... When you have harassment cases, like once one thing, it's just a house of cards and the whole thing comes down. Uh, and I suspect that that we'll be talking about this for... For a few more weeks because, umm, there is... There is something there. I would... I would think. I think there's something there.

0:52:20.3 Chad: Deep breath, kids, deep breath.

0:52:21.8 Speaker 8: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

0:52:22.9 Chad: I don't think it's a surprise that Gen Z hates LinkedIn, right? Are you with me? Okay, go ahead and roll that footage.

0:52:32.4 JT: Time to talk about LinkedIn, obviously.

0:52:36.6 Moe: That's what we do. When we think LinkedIn, we get kind of hot.

0:52:38.4 Chad: I love chicken cock. [0:52:40.4] ____ I love it.

[laughter]

0:52:40.9 Moe: Oh, my God.

[laughter]

0:52:41.0 Moe: Ridiculous.

0:52:41.3 JT: All right, LinkedIn from... This from... This, from Vice. Uh, and a story entitled, "LinkedIn might be the worst social media app for Gen Z, end quote. Uh, can you say clickbait? Anyway, uh, social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok often spark envy by showcasing curated highlight reels of people's lives, making users feel inferior. Less noticed, but equally potent. LinkedIn triggers what they're calling, 'LinkedIn Envy', driving some to delete their profiles due to constant self-comparison with others' exaggerated professional achievements. Users report feeling terrible about themselves with the platform becoming an 'egocentric breeding zone', full of cringeworthy inflated job titles, like someone claiming to be Director of Security when they're just a frontline support vendor."

[overlapping conversation]

0:53:39.8 JT: Moe, LinkedIn Envy, it's a thing. Your thoughts?

0:53:40.8 Moe: It's a thing. You're right, that was such a clickbait headline for sure. Uh, because let me tell you, I think it's that way for every generation. Umm, and I think it's just like the job version of the envy, right? Like Instagram's like the curated, like this is my home, this is the day in the life, and this is just like professional version, right? Umm, but I can 100% attest to that feeling. Like I remember feeling that way often earlier in my career. So maybe that's where the Gen Z aspect is these people are earlier in their career. And now I know better because I'm like, yeah, that doesn't check out. Like, you write your Harvard MBA, but then I go and I ask, this actually happened. This is a great story. I had a company that was acquired by a private equity firm and my new boss, I went on LinkedIn to look him up and I was like, oh, who's this guy? Like I'm going to have, you know, what's essentially a job interview for the job I currently hold. And when I met him, I was like, oh, I'm going to talk about Boston.

0:54:28.2 Moe: Because he went to Harvard and I went to Tufts and perfect. Like we'll just chat Boston. I get on the phone with him, I'm like, so Boston, he's like, uh, he got like really uncomfortable. And I'm like, what? And he's like, yeah, that was an online certificate. And I was like, dude, bro, like you can't write Harvard MBA if you had an online certificate. And that stuff is all over the place on LinkedIn. So first of all, it's things are not what they seem always. That was like such an amazing moment by the way.

0:54:47.6 JT: Yeah.

0:54:50.2 Moe: But it also just encapsulated for me like you really... You don't know what people are saying on there, whether it's true or not. And people get to certain places and rungs on the ladder by a lot of different things, including luck and who you know. So it's just like, I don't really look at it in the same lens. I don't feel bad about myself anymore because I think so much of it is nonsense. But, umm, I think before you kind of have been around the block,

0:55:11.1 JT: Mm-hmm.

0:55:13.5 Moe: Like that could probably impact your worldview a little bit more. And it totally makes sense. Like everyone or a lot of people on there are just like, dude, I just got promoted and I'm making like a gazillion dollars and here's my hack to do it. And you know, it's just, there's a lot of that on there.

0:55:23.5 JT: Yeah.

0:55:26.7 Moe: But I... I personally don't think it's any worse than what you see on Instagram. It's just like in the professional realm. Oop, lost my earbud.

[laughter]

0:55:34.9 JT: That's all right. Sorry. I, uh, one of the... One of the aspects of the story that I thought was interesting was that you, there's a sense that you can't delete LinkedIn.

0:55:39.7 Moe: Yeah, yeah.

0:55:42.3 JT: Because it's your professional footprint. Whereas I want to leave X, like, I'm out...

0:55:50.5 Moe: So true.

0:55:51.5 JT: Or Reels is stupid. I'm not going to join. Like, LinkedIn does have this, you have to be on it feel.

0:55:55.7 Moe: Yes. [0:55:55.9] ____.

0:55:57.7 JT: So, so I do think that is a difference between....

[overlapping conversation]

0:55:59.2 JT: Between LinkedIn and other platforms. And so far, no one can dethrone LinkedIn. Like...

0:56:04.9 Moe: Yeah, it's true.

0:56:05.9 JT: Social media feels like every five years there's a new... There's a new thing that...

0:56:06.0 Moe: Totally.

0:56:08.7 JT: Everyone can join or join or, you know, change up. Umm, Poly...

0:56:09.1 Moe: Yeah, I agree with that, though.

0:56:10.5 JT: Polywork.

0:56:11.5 Moe: You can't.

0:56:13.4 JT: Polywork like, yeah, Polywork we mentioned was a, like, kids, the... The kids needed a LinkedIn and they're... They're gone.

[chuckle]

0:56:16.8 Moe: They're gone.

0:56:17.4 JT: So for the... For the meantime, uh, LinkedIn tend... Tends to be it. Umm, my sister, who's, uh, late to the game on LinkedIn, umm, was hit on for the first time on LinkedIn.

[laughter]

0:56:32.1 JT: And I'm curious, I'm curious because I... I've never been hit on LinkedIn. I'm sure that shocks you. Uh, but I also don't know any, I don't know any men, uh, who have, or at least have admitted to that.

0:56:43.0 Moe: Yeah.

0:56:43.4 JT: But it seems like a serious problem with women. Are you finding that with you and your, your friends that are female?

0:56:46.4 Moe: Yes, I have had, uh, marriage proposals or maybe they were marriage threats. Like, I've gotten, I will marry you. And I'm assuming English, not first language for this person, but like stuff like that comes and you're just like, like what? Like, what are you talking about, right? So yeah, that's happened.

0:57:03.9 JT: So it's more sarcasm, umm, like shot in the dark thing. Like never...

0:57:08.5 Moe: I mean, I don't... I don't know his intentions, but I was like, this... I will marry you, sounds like a threat.

[laughter]

0:57:14.7 Moe: So I think [0:57:14.9] ____.

0:57:15.0 JT: I've never gotten that marriage proposal.

0:57:17.4 Moe: Maybe, don't worry, don't sell yourself short. It could still happen. But it's... It's like, uh, so and I'm not the only one who has this happen. Like other women that I talk to have this kind of stuff occur often.

0:57:29.0 JT: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:57:29.8 Moe: So it's... It's a thing for sure. But to your earlier point, like you absolutely need to have a LinkedIn profile. Like, that's where I think it's like 90% of recruiters look to LinkedIn for jobs. Like I... I read that somewhere. Don't quote me exactly, but it was something super high. And anytime you want to do any sort of networking, you... You have to go to LinkedIn to see where people are and who they're connected to and all that. And so you might not like it, but you should at least have like a shell profile. I'm not saying you have to go post every day or something, become a super user, but you should at least have something. And maybe if it makes you feel like shit, don't go on it a lot, but like you need to have something there.

0:58:01.9 JT: Yeah, it really... It really has become a necessity.

0:58:02.4 Moe: Yeah.

0:58:06.0 JT: I mean, I have a... I have an 18-year-old son who's going to college. And I mean, it sounds horrible, but I'm like, dude, LinkedIn is probably not going anywhere.

0:58:17.0 Moe: It's not.

0:58:18.8 JT: And people, people are lazy. People like shorthand. They like... They like quick sort of glance and get a sense of who you are. And so, you know, I really pushed him into a brand name school, which he is. Uh, he's going to Indiana, so he's going to like a big ten school. I'm going to try to push him into like internships with brand name companies because that's what employers...

[overlapping conversation]

0:58:37.5 Moe: [0:58:37.6] ____.

0:58:38.3 JT: Want to see. They want to see a college they know. Umm, they want to see interns and companies that they recognize. And to your point, I think people are really focused on padding, uh, their profiles. And whether that's right out lying or I'm going to get that quick, uh, online certificate or whatever to say that I went to Yale and have.

[overlapping conversation]

0:59:00.4 Moe: This is so grinch. So bad.

0:59:02.4 JT: And then.... And then they put that in their top... Top of the profile.

0:59:04.7 Moe: Yes. [0:59:05.0] ____.

0:59:06.7 JT: Like that's their main...

0:59:08.6 Moe: Yeah, that is exactly what this guy I was talking about did. And I was like, oh my, come on, man. Like...

0:59:11.2 JT: Like, yeah.

0:59:12.0 Moe: He did that.

0:59:12.8 JT: So there's obviously a lot of pressure.

0:59:15.6 Moe: Yeah.

0:59:16.6 JT: Uh, you know, on Tinder it's, I'm 6'3" and...

0:59:17.8 Moe: Right.

0:59:19.3 JT: And here it's, I went to Harvard. And... And like...

0:59:21.6 Moe: Yep. I'm the CEO.

0:59:22.8 JT: Yeah.

0:59:23.4 Moe: Right? Of my own one-person company that's in stealth mode. Like, what? You know, like that's the kind of stuff you see. So things are not [0:59:31.1] ____.

[overlapping conversation]

0:59:32.6 JT: Should LinkedIn crack down on that? Should LinkedIn have some sort of, uh, verification or to like that's getting pretty rampant from what I can tell. It'd be nice if they had something.

0:59:39.8 Moe: Yeah. It would be. I don't know how exactly they'd do it, but you know, if there's a will, there's a way. It might be a good idea. At least, at least crack down on the scams, right? 'Cause there are enough scams on there. Uh, that's, that's the thing I see as more disturbing than anything else. The other stuff you can kind of filter out. Like, cool, you're CEO...

0:59:54.2 JT: Where there's a dollar, where there's a dollar, there's a way. I mean.

0:59:56.3 Moe: Exactly.

0:59:57.5 JT: Someone who went to an Ivy League school would pay LinkedIn to have like a check mark at their college at the top of their profile.

1:00:05.0 Moe: Verification, verified Yale student.

1:00:07.0 JT: Yeah, if...

1:00:08.0 Moe: Like, uh, yeah, you're right.

1:00:08.3 JT: If you're... If you're paying to a quarter million dollars to go to school and get a degree, like you'll pay 20, 100 bucks a year or whatever.

1:00:16.7 Moe: Smart point.

1:00:17.7 JT: To get that verification. Yes.

1:00:18.0 Moe: Stop point. That's another money-making move for them. Yeah. They're gonna crush... They're gonna crush.

1:00:19.6 JT: A new... A new frame around your profile.

[overlapping conversation]

1:00:22.0 Moe: Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:00:24.0 JT: You know, little Ivy League, little Ivy.

1:00:24.3 Moe: Super smart. Mm-hmm. That's a really great call.

[overlapping conversation]

1:00:26.9 JT: You're welcome, LinkedIn.

1:00:30.9 Moe: You should get a cut. Get a cut, for sure.

1:00:31.9 JT: Just want 15, 15% of everything.

1:00:32.2 Moe: Sure, for sure.

1:00:34.3 JT: All right.

1:00:37.2 Moe: But yeah, there is a lot of opportunity, I'll say, for Gen Z to get on LinkedIn. Because like a lot of people aren't in Gen Z.

1:00:39.3 JT: They have to.

1:00:42.7 Moe: And my social media consultant/video guy, like he realized recently, he was like, holy shit, I need to be on LinkedIn. Like, why am I only on Instagram? And I was like, I've been telling you, guy, like you should get on here. Because it's just there's... There's a dearth of voices in that space, so why not?

1:00:54.6 JT: Yeah. And now that they have video, you're going to see more of this sort of FOMO...

1:00:57.5 Moe: Yeah, totally. TikToking. Stuff, yeah.

1:00:59.5 JT: Stuff on LinkedIn.

1:01:00.6 Chad: Thanks again for listening, watching and engaging with the Chad and Cheese in 2025. We're looking forward to even more of that in 2026. So for Joel, JT, Moe, Emmy, Levan, and from our sponsors, Happy New Year. And we out.

1:01:17.8 OUTRO: Thank you for listening to what's it called? Podcast. The Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses. And not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. So weird. We out.