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Building a TA Power House through Tech, Automation, & Revenue Growth

Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.


Chad: Hey it's Chad and today we have a special edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast for you.


Chad: That music can only mean one thing, a Swedish twist. As Sara Dalsfelt, Head of Brand & Community over at Adway invited Joel and myself to come on her show to talk about building a TA powerhouse through tech, automation and revenue growth. That's right, revenue growth.


Chad: With over 1800 people registered for this show, Joel and I knew that we had to bring the heat, so we did. Enjoy.


Sara: Good morning, good evening and good afternoon from Sweden and welcome to this month's livestream with Adway on the topic. Build Your TA powerhouse with tech, automation and showcasing revenue growth. We are finally back and we have over 1800 signups so we'll give you, everyone a couple of minutes to get settled. And in the meantime, if you're excited, fire away with emojis, show your energy and let us know where you are tuning in from. For anyone that's new, my name is Sara. I'm a part of Adway and we do automated social recruitment marketing enabling a 24/7 storytelling experience in social media to attract your most desired candidates, fully automated while leaving the bias out.

Sara: Now everyone for the moment you've been waiting for, the coming 30 minutes will be a game changing livestream featuring the ultimate disruptors of TA. They fearlessly challenge the status quo in recruitment, boldly embrace cutting edge TA strategies and relentlessly advocate for the power of TA to drive business success. So this is your moment to learn from the trailblazers who are shaking up the industry and transforming the way we approach talent acquisition. I introduce to you ladies and gentlemen, the most requested guests of the show, the cheesiest TA duo, Chad and Cheese aka Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman. Welcome.


Joel: Pleasure to be here. Did you say...

Chad: Cheers.

Joel: Did you say 1800?

Sara: I said 1800. Yeah. What do you think?

Joel: That's a lot of unemployed recruiters that have time then. Who doesn't watch this?

Sara: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the live...

Joel: Game changing, Chad. That's a lot of pressure.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. How about that intro guys? Like that sets the scene, right?

Joel: Yeah. That's the page, yeah. We're to underperform and overpromise.

Chad: You should be our hype girl, that's for sure.

Sara: Yeah, yeah. Hundred percent.

Joel: Yours at the night club by the way.

Sara: Yeah. Before we jump into the intros about you guys let me just remind everyone watching live with us that if you comment "summary" you'll be sent the full summary with all the key takeaways and the recording. So bomb away in the comment section if that is in your interest. So Joel and Chad, you've been the North Star for TA for years at least Adway's and mine. But for anyone who's new to you can you tell us how you are changing and disrupting the industry of TA and what you're doing to help us get even smarter and wiser?

Joel: It's a low bar for disruption. That's how it is.

Sara: Oh, no, no, no.

Joel: I dunno. I mean, I'll let Chad... I mean you can see both of our bios everywhere online. Obviously a lot of people are connected on LinkedIn to us but I mean we're just old guys that have been around and have history. Yeah, we're old Chad. Sorry. And we have perspective. We've seen a lot of stuff. We can bring historical context to what's going on, which helps you predict the future, which gives you the ability to sort of analyze current things in a way that a lot of people that have been in the industry for just a few years don't have. I think we're lucky enough that we have some chemistry whether it's a grumpy kind of old guy chemistry, I don't know. We definitely have a face for podcasting and just kind of on a whim and both of our wives telling us to do something with our lives, we bought a couple of mics and started a podcast and here we are six years laters.

Sara: Here we are.

Joel: Believe it or not.

Chad: Here we are. Well and I mean and we don't report to anybody so we don't have bosses other than our wives. And so we're not afraid to say what everybody else is thinking. And that's a problem with our industry mainly is that we think a certain thing but we're afraid to say it because of being PC or whatever the guideline is, right? So it's speaking truth to power a lot of times, we see a lot of stupid shit that happens in the industry and everybody points at it but nobody says anything. It's our job to say something. So we have people that now I mean almost like insiders at many organizations who help us to be able to dig up what's actually happening in some of these situations. So it's been a blast. I mean our following has been really a cult following. They wear t-shirts, they get...

Sara: They do.

Chad: We send them booze. We send them beer. So yeah, I mean this is about what we feel, two middle-aged White guys feel like the industry needs. We need truth. And so we try to bring it, we do our best. Put it that way.

Joel: And honestly, it's as rewarding for us as hopefully our listeners that do listen. The fact that we're on a video call with Sweden from our homes in Indiana to the rest of the world is just a fascinating thing to sort of digest.

Sara: It's speaking, it's speaking, guys.

Joel: But it's an honor to do what we do frankly. And there's probably even more joy in what we do than the people who listen in and love our show.

Sara: Yes. And I'm happy to say that that honor is also ours. Like we've been following you since day one of Adway. We're just a five-year old company though. But I mean the way you are approaching and like just not... 'Cause I mean we love talking, right? It's an industry, a lot of talks, a lot of seminars, a lot of sit downs, a lot of round tables. You actually you guys are demanding action and I love that. That's what we love about you guys as well. So that takes us into today's topic where we're sort of gonna describe the ultimate way of building your TA powerhouse like utilizing automation tech and of course showcasing revenue growth. So if I were just like straight up asking you like what is your recommendations on how TA can and should build the most resilient TA setup, built upon these three factors, what would your short answer be?

Joel: So we get asked this a lot. A little historical perspective like I mentioned in my intro there, this game used to be pretty simple. It used to be post some jobs, where do I post them? Well, okay here's some good places where you can do that. Okay. They go into a little ATS, you interview them, schedule some shit. I mean it was pretty straightforward and your options were pretty limited in terms of your strategy. Today it's so fucking confusing. I mean Chad and I... I'm sorry, can you F-bomb on this show? I guess I just did no matter what.

Chad: Just did. [chuckle]

Sara: You just did.

Joel: Oh, sorry. My LinkedIn profile is now gone apparently. No but everyone wants like a silver bullet for Chad and I to drop on them that's gonna solve all their problems. And there is no silver bullet to solve all their problems. It's very custom, it's very localized, it's very business specific. Now there are great tools out there like G2, your own network, obviously there are podcasts, blogs, YouTube channels all over the place talking about this stuff. But you have to do your homework. You have to do your due diligence to find the tools that are gonna work best for you.

Joel: I think for me the tech stack in being successful really goes back to three things that if you don't have these foundational pieces, it doesn't matter if you do have a silver bullet, it's ultimately going to fail. And one of those things is simply treat people like human beings. We treat people so often as resources, we're ghosting people, the application process sucks. So I mean just treating people well is number one in the mission here. Number two is pay them well. Treat them well, pay them well. We're fortunate at least in America where pay transparency is trending. And your inability to not tell people what you're paying them is quickly going away. So paying them a good wage.

Joel: And number three is giving people hope, that they're not stuck where they are, that they can move upwards. Upskilling is a huge topic on our show. But if people feel like they're in a dead end, go nowhere opportunity, they're gonna leave. So if you don't have, treat people well, pay them well and give them hope, it doesn't matter how good your technology is, it's gonna fail.

Sara: Yeah. Absolute foundation. Yep.

Chad: Yeah. And Joel and doing the homework that's what we at least help organizations do their homework or at least start to look in different areas where they should be smarter, they should be focusing. And in our industry, we set up systems that last for years and that is wrong. We need to be fluid. People are fluid, the market's fluid, everything is fluid. But yet we buy a piece of tech and we just let it sit there and fester. Then it becomes an open wound and then we point at it and say we have shitty tech and it's the vendor's fault. No. It's not the vendor's fault. If you didn't do your due diligence upfront number one and understand the capabilities of the tech not to mention also roadmap and those types of things, major due diligence and then if you just let it sit there and you didn't provide the fluidity, right? Then that's a huge problem.

Chad: And then how do we pay for it? We've got today... We used to have an applicant tracking system and job boards and that was it. Right? Today we have so many different point solutions, so many different versions of tech stacks and things of that nature. Then we have to be able to really understand business to pay for these things. Right? We can't just do business and sit back like Oliver Twist and wait for more fucking gruel because it's not gonna happen. We have to be the business drivers. We, not sales, not marketing, we have to be.

Sara: Love this, love this. And so many are also like just accepting the inherited tech setup. Like we've inherited this, this is the system now. I don't know. You have to question that each day. Love it. And you guys, as passionate as you are, let me just jump into the first question where I'm like really want your feedback. So if we start around like implementing automation in the recruitment process, I would just like to point up yes there's a lot of talk of the rise of AI and automation in recruitment. Companies are looking to streamline their hiring process while improving the digital candidate experience. So my first question would be, how would you say to most successfully implement automation in recruiting including best practice selection in implementing technology and strategies for integrating automation into the existing workflows? So again we sit with a lot of ERP system, open APIs but where do we begin? Due diligence was really good.

Joel: What a very Swedish question in like eight different parts.

Sara: Sorry. [laughter]

Joel: Remember we're Americans. Keep it simple.

Chad: That's how he asks questions. Whatever.

Joel: Yeah. Keep it simple. Yeah. I love the term streamline hiring which basically means to me is companies are trying to find ways to get rid of you, recruiters. It's all over the news. Yeah. They would like to do it. You can argue whether they will or not. I would argue that there are certain processes which will be automated. I think where it becomes important is the augmentation part. You as a recruiter, look at your skillset and if you think that your skillset can be replaced by automation, then you're not gonna be in the recruiting profession for a very long time. However, if you learn to use the technology in a way that other people cannot, in other words augment your current skills with technologies that are gonna make you in a certain way RoboCop which is dating us 'cause that's a movie from the '80s where there's like half robot, half cop is patrolling the mean streets of Detroit. That's how you're gonna be successful. Is learning how to augment your current skillset and work within that. I think there're gonna be a lot of specialists.

Joel: You're going to have people that are really, really good at a certain vendor technology or a certain function or strategy. Think of like sourcing from back in the day. There are gonna be people that learn how to use ChatGPT in unique ways that no one else knows. And those people are gonna have jobs in the future. So I would just... To answer your question, I'll pass it on to Chad and we'll keep going down this road but I think it's important to know that you're in a profession where they want to replace you, they look at you as a cost center and we'll talk about that as to why you're not and how to justify your existence. But by and large, companies, you're kind of a pain in the ass and you're a cost center. So you gotta find ways to prove yourself as a money-making machine and someone that's indispensable if you're gonna survive in the future.

Chad: Yeah. I remember when Windows 3.1 came on the market that was much like what we're talking about today. Recruiters needed to learn the new word processing and then get on the internet. This is nothing that's new, kids. We've been doing this since day one. Right? These are just new pieces of technology. These are tools. And you have to remember that recruiting in itself is a job full of many tasks. Most of those tasks and maybe not most of them but a good amount of those tasks are pains in the asses. They're administrivia, they're dull. It's horrible. Now, taking some of those tasks and being able to automate those tasks so that we can actually give the humans more time to provide white glove services, that is where we should be moving. So the fluidity of yester year in today it's the same. We just have different names for the tools, right?

Sara: Yeah. Yep.

Chad: Now when we're talking about integration and process methodology and those types of things, if you haven't blown up your entire process, re-engineered your process and then started shopping different solutions, point solutions and building your tech stack, what the hell are you doing? Fire yourself. Okay? Fire yourself right now. If you're still thinking in the same process methodology that you were 18 months ago, then you're not doing your job. So when it comes down to being able to build these new stacks, fluidity is everything. And again we can't think of 18 months ago, we have to think about today and tomorrow. How do we put something in place that can be fluid to build for our next need? Because our need tomorrow is definitely not gonna be our vital need of today.

Sara: Quote. Love it. And technology disclaimer, what I always like come back to is in TA you don't have to be an AI expert. You don't have to be a data engineer, you don't have to be like a coder but you have to be tech comfortable. Let that sink in. That's a total difference. But tech comfortable means you know the questions to ask, you know the processes. You've been in Excel. You've built it and you know what you are looking to augment, to quote you.

Chad: And you're not afraid to ask. That's the big key here, right?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah.

Chad: Don't act like you know when you don't.

Sara: No.

Joel: They play hockey in Sweden, right? Pretty popular sport. So a guy named Wayne Gretzky who probably everyone on the call knows.

Chad: Canadian.

Joel: Had a great quote, don't go where the puck is, go where the puck is going. Chad's got a great point with Windows 3.1 but Windows 3.1 didn't write job descriptions like ChatGPT does. So whereas tech does stay similar in some ways, there is tech that does things now that's quite frankly a little bit mind blowing. And frankly not since like search and email and mobile stuff have I been personally as impressed with the opportunity that this technology has. So there's an element of like the more things change the more they stay the same but also be aware of where the puck is going and going where the puck is will help you keep your job and be successful.

Sara: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And just a reminder to everyone on the livestream, if you still... Keep commenting "summary" you will access all these key takeaways and the sources mentioned in this live stream. So keep...

Joel: Game changing takeaways, is what we're drawing.

Sara: Yes. Game changing takeaways. Keep pumping in the comment section. Moving on, if I were to continue and ask how to leverage though the data-driven recruitment processes and what I mean is data analytics is massively helping companies optimize the recruitment strategies. Not like change out any recruiters but optimize for better funnels, for making better hiring decisions at the end. Could you guys discuss with us how to leverage data to identify talent trends to measure the effectiveness of recruitment campaigns and improve the candidate engagement?

Chad: Yeah, I mean we have transparency today through data that we've never had before. Back in the day we talked about big data. The problem was with big data, is we didn't have the processors to be able to break it down like we do today to be able to provide the insights and the visualizations that we have, right? So the biggest key is this is market research that is specific to your organization and the individuals who are engaging your organization. So this is incredibly important. Not to mention you take that data and then what we were just talking about AI, we allow AI to start to synthesize that data. We audit it obviously but then it can start to advise us on different ways, different decisions to be able to make. Because in many cases, labor market information that's out there, we've got information that is is inside the actual system.

Chad: Using those two pieces of information can help us better understand, hey we've got openings in X location, we can't find anybody. Well that's because if we take a look at the LMI and we go against our needs they don't exist. So what do we do at that point to be able to create talent pipelines either in the same location or flip those over to a location where we can see there's actually a talent pool that's there? So data visualization is incredibly cool because we're just I mean a step up from monkeys for God's sakes. We've gotta have something easy to look at, right?

Joel: Yeah, I mean, neither Chad or our data scientists and...

Sara: Aren't you?

Joel: I'm guessing most of the audience members are not data scientists either, I'm gonna go out on a limb on that. So two things with data. There are a myriad of vendors looking to take data, tons of data and help you better make decisions to recruit and better justify your existence, LinkedIn's tool alone, think about the data they have with many profiles that they have and know who's moving where and what locations are trending and where people are getting degree... LinkedIn has tremendous data, companies like Eightfold have gotten bucket loads of money to try to sort of solve the internal talent intelligence game and who's most likely to be your next executives and what track should people be on. So I'm not gonna sit here and say I know all the answers to data 'cause I certainly don't but there are vendors and really smart people with a lot of people... A lot of PhDs on staff to try to figure this shit out, I would just do your due diligence for the tools that will help you.

Joel: I do think, however, data is gonna be your best tool to justify your existence to the C-suite and we get the question all the time, like, how do I convince my executives that we're not a cost center, that we're invaluable, etcetera? In most cases data, it's gonna tell your story as to why you should get more money, why the money you get is justified and how you can grow the company. We got a great interview with Jeff Lackey on the show for people that listen but Jeff commented that HR, if you don't know how the company makes money and where the company's going, it's hard to tell a story as to why you should exist and why you should have a seat at the table. And the fact that we're not even to a point where HR folks and recruiters know how we make money and where we're going as a company, tells me that we have a long way to go and data is just something there to use but we gotta get through that really short bridge of like, how the hell do we make money and what's our vision for the future, get there first and the data can come in after.

Chad: Yeah and we have to get away from... Let's put it this way, we have to take time to fill and cost per hire further. Those...

Sara: I was just gonna say thank you. Those KPIs mean nothing to a board.

Chad: They mean nothing to a CEO, they mean nothing to aboard, they mean nothing to a CRO, a CMO, none of that. So quit using those stupid metrics. Yes, they are a starting point to be able to get... To get you to the actual bottom line numbers that you need to be able to talk about.

Sara: 100%. I mean, I was just gonna say that was 100% spot on. Basically where we're looking... What we've been doing the whole time, I mean, even in our company, we've been looking at marketing metrics for a long time, we've been looking at cost per click or cost per conversion or time to hire, all those and those are brilliant as a starting point but in order to prove your revenue growth, basically how you keep building upon the bottom line, you have to translate that into the business language so basically turn those short KPIs into your actual business case. So you're building your business case further to the board.

Sara: And as we were discussing previously, Chad, where like, well, you could have your seat but how do you keep it? Like how do you really make sure you're supposed to be there. So data is like just a bit vague but turning those numbers into business OKRs, if you may, I mean that's the whole game changer. So on that subject, some would even start like, how do I showcase my revenue growth. How do I support the bottom line? Where would you guys... Where would they start? In many cases, we could say with LTA, there would be no business but then again, you wanna support that with the data.

Joel: You can... Again, back to the Jeff Lackey conversation, we talked a lot about net promoter scores and there's a direct correlation with your net promoter score which everyone can Google it but it's basically how happy your customers are and people that use your services are. A direct high score of that is a direct relation to how much and how successful the company is. So that metric alone can start indicating of like, Okay, if we have millions of people coming through our system every year looking for a job and we're not giving them data... Information on, we've got your application, here's why you were turned down, or here's... We're giving them that experience, what does that mean on our net promoter score and if it lowers it, it means we're making less money, if our employees give us a low net promoter score.

Joel: So just that one thing and it's something I think a lot of executives understand, marketing for sure understands it, that alone can start telling your story as to why it's important. Because if you have unhappy employees, you're gonna have unhappy customers, which means you're gonna have an unhealthy business.

Chad: And the first thing that TA/HR needs to understand is that they've actually put themselves in this cost centers narrative and TA is the living, breathing heart of every organization. Nothing gets ideated, nothing gets produced, nothing gets sold, nothing gets serviced and wallet share doesn't increase without TA bringing talent into the fold. Now, how do you do that? First off, you have to understand the company's business and how money is made, then you have to break it down department by department, you have to understand how... What a vital position is for sales and what actually what that costs to have a position open every single day, an open senior exec position or what have you, same thing with marketing, product, etcetera, etcetera. So when you get into more bottom line talk, then you can start to have the C-suite understand exactly how what you're doing is impacting day-to-day revenue. A CEO of a small business that actually said currently she has 30 people on staff.

Chad: If she had another 15 she could drive 5 million dollars more in top line revenue. Now, when the CEO starts thinking like that and TA isn't, we know we have a problem. Joel talked about Jeff Lackey, who was at CVS with over 200000 employees. 90% of his budget, I think that's a correct stat, 90% of his budget came from other departments, the other departments were internal funding sources, because Jeff went to them and said, Look, where are your vital positions, what do you need to fill today? Why are they vital? Let's take a look and see how they actually impact the bottom line. If they don't, then it's not an opening, then it goes away, it doesn't exist.

Chad: At that point, he actually had one of his staff members, I think it might have been a chief of staff, she was actually responsible for bringing in 10 million dollars to their bottom line budget-wise from other departments. This is all internal funding. And then we spoke to Amy Butchko, who was over at SAIC, who has about 180000 employees. She worked directly with her CRO to budget an entirely new tech stack, because what she did was CRO came to her and said, Why are we having issues filling my top exec roles, my revenue drivers. She moved to the actual application process through a hard 45 minutes. And the CRO said, how much is this gonna cost? And she said this, let's do it, let's do it. So we have to be smarter about building a business case and taking those stupid HR metrics that we have further and make them business metrics so that we can get internal funding but you have to remember, you get internal funding, you gotta produce.

Sara: Right. I love the internal funding, that's how you become the business strategist of your company, that's basically where you level up. I love that. If in this process, like if anyone ever struggles, like where would you recommend them to start? Like are they going to the CEO, where are they starting?

Chad: Well, it depends on the organization and the need. In many cases, one of the biggest, the loudest people in the organization, generally the CRO because they drive revenue. You can have those types of conversations with understanding how... And it's usually easy for them to break down what an open position means for their bottom line, 'cause they know what their quota is, they know what their top line revenue needs to be. So you can start that. Then also reaching out to, again, people in the space like Jeff Lackey who is now an advisor who has dealt with this and actually built these types of programs and been really more of like a chief of staff to the CEO when it comes to business operations. I think it's important to start to open up the discussions in all of the departments and understand that their OKRs are going to be different sales from your CMO versus your product versus your CFO but once you understand that, then you can speak the business lingo. And you can make it happen.

Joel: Quick note. Chad is the CRO of the Chad and Cheese podcast, which makes it okay for him to be an asshole.

Sara: I was sure I was gonna ask.

Joel: I agree with in terms of sometimes you need a translator. Sometimes the discussions about, what do we do? How do we make money? Where is the vision, where are we going? Sometimes that's out of bounds for a lot of people to have that conversation. They're uncomfortable conversations to have typically but if you feel like mentally you're not there, having a translator, someone that's been doing this for 20, 30, 40 years, that has done HR and done the executive and knows how to talk to all those pieces, maybe it makes sense to write some checks to get a translator and they're calling everybody to the table and figure out and talk everyone's language and then get everyone going in the right direction.

Sara: I mean, if you're in TA and you're currently a victim of budget costs, you're not approaching the problem from the right angle. That's the starting point.

Joel: That's a good point.

Chad: You're probably cowering, you're probably in the fetal position, in the corner with your thumb in your mouth, that's the problem. We need to stiffen our spine.

Joel: Yeah. Which is not a road to making yourself invaluable if you're not having those conversations.

Sara: No. We have to quit being the victims and take control and start showcasing business growth. I mean, definitely. That's the same conversation as being tech comfortable. You don't have to be an engineer but you have to come in the game, otherwise, another TA specialist with the tech comfort will take your place. That's basically where we are. Quoting on quotes. So time is tipping, I love... Tipping. [chuckle] Ticking.

Chad: Slipping away.

Sara: Slipping, yeah. I love this sort of conversations, I just look at you and I feel butterflies in all parts of my body, I'm so excited. I love this topic. If we're to summarize two of your most important takeaways from this conversation and with some of the questions, where would you start? Like if anyone is supposed to take anything with them from this session, what would that be?

Chad: Blow up your process and go further with regard to metrics, go past your HR metrics, go toward business metrics. Those are the two things.

Joel: I would just say try to take a 30000-foot view of what you do. We get so involved in the minor details, putting out fires every day. John Lennon has a great quote. Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. And I would just say, take a second, these big picture items that we've talked about, how does your company make money, what's the vision for the future? Having these big conversations, that is what's gonna drive the ship, these little fires that you put out every day, before you know it, you're gonna wonder where the hell the time went and did we achieve anything that we wanted to. So my only take away from this is like, take a step back, take a breath and look at the big picture.

Sara: I love it. And there's a lot of questions on this topic. I will actually spend some time after this session and going through them all but we have one here with Mark. He agrees on the metric comments, so he said, I 100% agree with the metric comments over complicated reports are boring to produce and present. Yes, if you can't present data quickly and simply highlight the key points to your audience, forget about it. This is basically quoting like what we've been touching upon. This is for... Time to hire is vital but you have to put it into context, what is time to hire for your tech department?

Joel: Mark wasn't hugged a lot as a kid, 'cause this isn't even a question, this is I wanna get on the show. I just want to get on the show.

Chad: I love it Mark. Thanks, Mark, we appreciate that.

Sara: We appreciate you, Mark. You should be on the show.

Chad: We appreciate that. Yes. No, we definitely need to take it further and we need to understand again, if that... Again, time to fill is 60 days. Okay, great, who cares? What does every single day mean to the bottom line, what is the cost to the bottom line every single day? That is what you are trying to solve for. That's what we're trying to solve for.

Joel: I will say that we tend to get into trap in life where we think everyone looks at the world the way we do and I would just present to mark that some people love over complicated reports.

Chad: Not many.

Joel: Some people love diving into numbers and metrics and it's your job to know who your audience is, whether that is an audience of a job candidate or an audience of someone in your company and if you find that it's someone that loves data, like you better present some data, if it's someone like me, I wanna see pictures and charts and graphs...

Chad: Infographic. He wants an infographic.

Joel: Paint me a big picture of what's going on 'cause I can't get the new shit. Know your audience and realize that not everyone thinks just like you.

Sara: And the context it's presented to. Love it. Bring it.

Chad: Well, presenting to a CFO is much different than presenting to a CRO.

Joel: Or CTO. Yeah.

Sara: Quote. Quote. Quote.

Joel: Totally different countries.


Sara: Totally different countries. Brilliant. Actually, the time has ran out. I'm so thankful for having you guys on the show. I mean, you have to come back. We have to do all the TA techno stuff that we talked about. We'll see you at breakfast, we'll see you anywhere we can. Potentially, I'm moving to the UK, we can do some cool events. We'll see about that. Look out for us, coming.

Joel: Such a tease.

Sara: Such a tease. Yes, so thank you to everyone joining us live and everyone watching this in repeat and have a great day. We'll see you soon. Brilliant.

Chad: Late.

Sara: Thank you, bye-bye.

Joel: We out.

Chad: We out.

Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.


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