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Europe's Job and Talent's Growth in the US Market


In this episode, the boys discuss various topics from Europe, including the growth of Job&Talent in the US market, the Automatic Wage Indexing System in Belgium, and the German court ruling that robots must take Sundays off. Job&Talent's recent success in the US market and its focus on high-volume shift work starts off the news analysis, also discussing the potential impact of immigration policies on the demand for hourly and gig workers in the US. Covering a range of timely and diverse topics, they cover additional topics including the acquisition of Orgnostic by Culture Amp, the commoditization of HR analytics platforms, and highlights from the recent E-Recruitment Congress event organized by Lieven and his team at House of HR.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION:

Joel Cheesman (00:29.422)

OOOOHHH Yeah, three guys forever suffering from a total eclipse of the heart. You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast as Europe. I'm your cohost, Joel Dusseldorf Cheeseman.

Chad (00:44.991)

This is Chad, turn around, bright eyes, so wash.

Lieven (00:49.326)

And I'm leaving, not centrusted in your stupid eclipse. Funny when I am.

Joel Cheesman (00:54.19)

And on this episode, job and talent goes West, orgnostic gets amped up, and final thoughts from the eRecruitment conference. Let's do this.

Chad (01:08.895)

What do you mean you don't care about it? Was it because you were not in the path of totality, Levin? Are you jealous? Were you left out, huh?

Joel Cheesman (01:13.55)

He was left out. The whole con.

Lieven (01:18.158)

I kept staring at the sun, I didn't see one eclipse at all, so it was fake news. No eclipse... doesn't exist.

Joel Cheesman (01:25.038)

You pulled a Trump and stared at the sun all day. That's, that's not healthy, leaving. Not healthy.

Lieven (01:27.79)

I mean...

Yeah, I read about it indeed. The glasses were to woke for Trump or something. You shouldn't wear them. Oh, wow.

Joel Cheesman (01:36.366)

Yeah. I have a theory that you and CABU were hanging out in Finland. That's my, that's my, that's my theory. Trying to watch in the Northern lights or something.

Chad (01:41.023)

More than life.

Lieven (01:43.054)

I think in Finland it's still dark.

add something else than your stupid eclipse normal lights

Chad (01:47.519)

He doesn't.

Joel Cheesman (01:53.07)

You're bitter today. Look, this, so we've got like Chad, Chad's on the cusp of Euro Chad. He's like on cloud nine, riding high and, and at neon Chad, freshly shorn Chad. Uh, yeah. And leaving in all black as usual. Uh, just, just, uh,

Lieven (01:55.054)

No, no, no, no, I'm happy.

Chad (01:55.263)

HATEFUL

Chad (01:59.263)

Yes. I'm also Neo, Neon Chad. See this?

Lieven (02:02.926)

Yeah, it's nice. I didn't even see it. Damn. Cool.

Chad (02:12.159)

As usual, he's getting ready. He's still auditioning for sprockets.

Lieven (02:13.358)

This is Navy, Navy blue. I said it before, Navy blue. What is Prakets?

Joel Cheesman (02:15.982)

Navy blue, my bad. Midnight blue.

Joel Cheesman (02:21.038)

You

Lieven (02:24.206)

Do I wanna know what sprocket is? I don't know sprockets, no.

Joel Cheesman (02:24.8)

Jesus, you don't know sprockets? Oh, I don't know if you can get SNL clips on YouTube out in Europe. Can you? Well, if you, yeah, if you search sprockets, sprockets SNL from the nineties and old, an old German, old German, German skit, it's good. It's good stuff.

Chad (02:26.207)

Oh, Saturday Night Live. Oh, I think you can. I think you can get the sprockets. Yeah. Touch my monkey. Touch my monkey.

Lieven (02:33.23)

sprockets. No touch my monkey. Most definitely not touch her monkey.

Chad (02:43.391)

just got turned down. No, no touching. All right. I'm going to give a shout out to, to, to European wages. And this is what I mean. Uh, so a study came out and showed pretty much what every European country was getting paid, you know, from top to bottom. Not going to go through all of those. Actually, I want to compare them to, to, uh, the, the U S um, Luxembourg is $47 or

Joel Cheesman (02:47.31)

Chad, what you got?

Chad (03:12.255)

47 euros 20 per hour compare Wow 20 47 20 yes, it's it's an average. It's an average and then the the highest paid state in the United States is and I did today's conversion is 34 25 euro, so we're talking about a pretty huge discrepancy 47 20

Lieven (03:16.462)

on average.

Joel Cheesman (03:19.438)

Party in Luxembourg, baby.

Chad (03:41.407)

to 35 .25, those are the highs in both. So there are five European countries that are above Massachusetts salary per hour rate, Belgium being one of those, leaving. And there are 10 European countries that are above 30 euro salary per hour or dollars per hour rate, which is $32 an hour for all you Americans that are listening. So yeah, shout out to getting paid.

Lieven (03:53.71)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (04:08.558)

So, so tax tax tax, the Chousets is the highest hourly way it's tax to choose. All right. Uh, so I'm going to, I'm going to take that, uh, shout out into the gutter with my next, uh, shout out. So Chad, you and I, you and I grew up in the seventies, uh, and I'm going to assume that you were at least at one truck stop, uh, in your, in your youth. If you, if you were in a truck stop gas station bathroom,

Lieven (04:08.814)

Thanks a -Ju -Sits!

Chad (04:12.895)

Getting paid.

Lieven (04:15.182)

Yeah.

Chad (04:26.719)

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Chad (04:31.135)

Jesus. Sticky floor.

Joel Cheesman (04:37.23)

in the seventies and you were a child, you got some sex ed. You got the coin slotted French tickler. You learned that it had to be ribbed for her pleasure. Those are gone. I haven't seen any of those for decades, but thankfully Germany, these coin operated sex machines are still a thing. So.

Chad (04:47.967)

Condom machine.

Lieven (04:51.214)

French tickler, nice.

Joel Cheesman (05:04.75)

So let me, let me read you some of the, uh, the, the products at, in a German. I think this was a Dusseldorf that I was visiting. Uh, you've got, uh, you've got the Billy boy, which is a condom. I think you've got the love ring vibro, which looks like it's, I don't know if, I don't know if the batteries come with it or you got it like put the batteries in separately, but, but that was fun. Uh, you got, you had a minute, many, many vibrate, many vibrator, uh, and you had the, I'll, I'll, I'll mispronounce this, but the D.

Lieven (05:05.199)

and

Chad (05:16.895)

Okay. Okay. Oh.

Lieven (05:19.118)

Of course, that's a classic.

Lieven (05:26.126)

You just move it by hand.

Joel Cheesman (05:34.446)

Kunchstiche, Stika, vagina, which is the travel vagina. So it's a party in a German bathroom. I didn't have to go to a truck stop for this. It was just in a regular city square bathroom. So shout out to the Deutschland bathrooms. A lot of fun.

Chad (05:39.999)

Oh, okay.

Lieven (05:40.11)

Okay.

Chad (05:43.039)

Hmm.

Chad (05:51.487)

Yeah, you don't see that in puritanic, uh, America. No, only, only, only in truck stops only in trucks.

Joel Cheesman (05:54.574)

You used to. Back when America was great, you could have the French tickler.

Joel Cheesman (06:04.27)

the hubs of commercial, commercial success, truck stops. Top that one, Levin.

Lieven (06:06.158)

Hello.

I've never seen them, so I think I don't frequent the places you do Joel, not even one in Dusseldorf now. But I don't feel like I'm missing a lot. Okay, okay, I have to admit it, I have one in my room. But...

Chad (06:13.535)

Imagine that.

Joel Cheesman (06:18.574)

Play coy with me, Leaven.

The guy's got a tree house in his backyard telling me he's not freaky.

Lieven (06:26.606)

That's right. That's right. In fact, it's a tree mansion. We call it a tree mansion because the house is so common. OK, the House of Commons. Anyways, Chet, you were talking about those wages. Did you know in Belgium we have something called the Automatic Wage Indexing System? Is this something? This is actually pretty cool. So at the moment, the.

Joel Cheesman (06:31.534)

Free Manchin, nice.

Chad (06:43.263)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (06:50.239)

Did not.

Joel Cheesman (06:53.294)

Tell us more.

Lieven (06:55.694)

the life cost is increasing, then the wages are indexed automatically. So people in Belgium will always have the same buying power. That was the whole idea. So the moment there is some kind of a price index and when let's say you go to the grocery store and you put all these things in your baskets, the moment the price on average is going above certain limits, everyone's wages are indexed by 5%, 3%, whatever. So last year with the

with the whole, we had to index prices, sorry, wages five times in one year, because everything was getting so expensive because of the crisis in Ukraine and people got a salary raise five times in one year. That's pretty impressive. So that's why we have the highest wages, I think, in Europe next to Luxembourg, which isn't a country at all, so we don't account them.

But that's why I'm just happy to educate you, American bumpkins. You're welcome. You're welcome. Okay. My shout out goes to the German unions for the first time in my life. I'm giving a shout out to the unions and why? Because they were the first to get on the barricades and defend robots rights to take a day off. And this actually is a fact. So the German court rules robots must take Sundays off. So the legal battle was triggered by.

Chad (07:57.599)

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Chad (08:06.303)

Oh wow.

Lieven (08:23.214)

Yeah, I know, I know.

Joel Cheesman (08:24.366)

Yeah.

Lieven (08:26.094)

So the union fundamentally opposes Sunday shopping, arguing that retail staff needs Sunday as a guaranteed day off to spend time with family and friends. And there was a retailer in Germany who had a totally automated mini shop chain. He hadn't, no one was working for him at all. And he had to close down his automated shops on Sunday because of the robots. So he had to, they needed the day off too. And the union...

Chad (08:34.847)

Now, that's something.

Lieven (08:54.126)

triggers the whole legal battle and the court followed it. So shout out to the unions for protecting the rights of the robots.

Chad (09:02.239)

That's right. And then on Sundays, you can't even get them maintained because nobody's allowed to work. So, I mean, you know, it'd be different if you could have maintenance on that day.

Lieven (09:07.054)

Ah no, of course.

No, if you ran out of coke in the vending machine then nobody is allowed to put a new one in. I wonder what they do with the bakeries on Sunday. Probably it's allowed. Should be. Yeah, of course. Not in German, you get Kaiser breads.

Chad (09:25.503)

We all need a good croissant.

Joel Cheesman (09:25.806)

What do you think they'll do about the robots and

Chad (09:31.295)

guys for watching guys for braida

Joel Cheesman (09:32.238)

What do you think Scotland will do about the robots, Chad? Anything? No.

Lieven (09:37.582)

I'll abuse him probably.

Chad (09:37.759)

Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll be amazing.

Joel Cheesman (09:42.83)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:49.71)

So some, some quick travel. Uh, we just got back from Amsterdam not too long ago, but Chad and I'll be headed to Scotland, uh, in May for a little Scotch slash interviews slash exciting conversations with exciting Scott Scottish startups. And then, uh, don't forget, uh, rec fest in July. Uh, I'll be there. Allegedly a coal cheeseman, uh, spotting will be a year number two in the making. Uh, I need someone to help pass out those t -shirts and.

Chad (10:09.727)

right.

Chad (10:16.543)

our equipment pack mule. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (10:19.342)

and, uh, sneak in, uh, chugs of beer while I'm not looking my seven 17. Yeah. Shh. Shh. They're listening, Chad. They're listening. They're listening. Chad. Don't, don't say anything. Don't say anything.

Chad (10:24.159)

Beer? More like whiskey. He was drinking everything. That kid was drinking everything.

Chad (10:35.263)

ZAPI!

Joel Cheesman (10:38.574)

All right, kids, job and talent experienced substantial growth in the U S market in 2023. Revenue came in at $450 million. That's a 22 % increase year on year. And the U S became the company's largest and fastest growing market as well as its most profitable in 2024, 2024 job and talent plans to further expand its market share in the U S by rolling out a revamped.

product suite aiming to transform the interactions between businesses and workers. Chad, your thoughts on the growth of job and talent.

Chad (11:15.487)

Well, Joel, I've got to bring up that back in May of 2022, you pondered whether job and talent would be all in on the US regional strategy and then, you know, leave and laughed at us because they were considered a region or if they were just playing a little game of just the tip. I think we can say that they're all in, there's no question. But you also said that coming to America would be a disaster for them. It hasn't, hasn't seemed to turn out that way.

Joel Cheesman (11:41.87)

Hmm.

Chad (11:44.127)

The US job market right now is booming in all the shift work arenas, which is exactly where job and talent plays I've said it on several podcasts prior to this one not just about job and talent but the staffing company industry that are the staffing company that Uber rises shift work wins job and talent is still small and Start -up II enough to be nimble while the a decos and ronstads are way too slow and lethargic. They just can't

They can't do something like this. They're just way too damn big. But what Uber is doing for rides and eats, Job and Talent is doing for a multitude of different jobs. And where Job and Talent are flourishing is around high volume jobs. So if you're in need of a new gig or just some extra cash, you can search for jobs near you, which everybody does on Google, review the hourly rate.

Joel Cheesman (12:17.006)

Yeah.

Chad (12:41.375)

watch videos of the tasks you're gonna be performing at that job and then apply. And as it says on the website, quote, no resume required, just answer some simple questions in our app and get the job. Plus you get paid in the damn app. So this is the future of shift work and job and talent announcement of 22 % year over year growth last year and generating 450 million in revenue.

Joel Cheesman (13:01.838)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:09.774)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (13:10.079)

feels like just the start. I'm waiting to see which companies try to buy these guys and or emulate because I mean, this is big kudos. Not many companies come to the US and do well. You even see companies who are already in the US like job .com who said they want to do this and they're having problems. Rumor mill says even making payroll right now, right? Staffing. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:24.686)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:36.302)

Oh, sounds like a tease.

Chad (13:39.135)

Yeah, so anyway, yeah, big kudos to Job and Talent. 450 mil.

Joel Cheesman (13:45.166)

So you're going to call me out like that on the podcast chat. That's, that's, that's not cool. That's not cool. Uh, uh, yeah. So look, so far, so good. Uh, and when you get a, what, a million, 3 billion, uh, a hundred or $1 .3 billion in investment, you should be able to grow and come to a new country. Uh, these guys have been around since 2009.

Lieven (13:48.174)

Ha ha ha.

Chad (13:48.255)

I, hey, it's all about history. It's history.

Joel Cheesman (14:08.174)

You've got organic growth and you've got immense investment into this company. So you kind of have the best of both worlds there for them, which is nice. The, the, the thing that they did right though, is that this country needs hourly workers and gig workers. 76 million workers were paid on hourly rates last year. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people and whether they knew this or not coming in, uh,

Chad (14:32.319)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (14:37.902)

It's an election year and it's looking like whichever party gets in, there's going to be a border thing. There's going to be a closing or deportation depending on who gets in. And you know what that means? That means even fewer workers than there already are to do hourly positions. So job and talent, whether they plan this or not politically is an incredibly good spot because we're ready to like shut down or slow down the immigration, which means.

Chad (14:56.255)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (15:06.766)

Companies are going to pay a shit ton of money to find and hire hourly workers, gig workers, et cetera. So they're not even in every state yet. Uh, they're going to roll this thing out. They've got money to advertise. I think they're going to go full steam ahead on marketing this thing. The name kind of sucks, uh, frankly. Um, so they need to market this thing to build a brand around it. But yeah, this is blue skies in part because the investment in part because 76 million people in this country are hourly workers.

Lieven (15:28.942)

This is Blue skies.

Joel Cheesman (15:35.246)

And politically we're setting this thing up on a silver platter for job and talent, uh, to crush the U S market. So congratulations, Chad, uh, and calling me out on the show and, uh, congratulations to job and talent who looks like, uh, they're going to do really well. What is the question is. They're like, what's up with zip recruiter? This is their sweet spot. It used to be. I mean, it's, it's, uh, yeah, I, yeah, maybe it's the tech. Yeah. It's it's.

Lieven (15:56.27)

Dude, I just told you, it's the test. It's the test that they're doing. It's the test.

Chad (15:56.415)

Dude, I just told you it's the tech, the tech that they're doing. It's the tech. When you, when you're a worker and you can just literally, you can go in and you can pick your shifts and you can, and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the, at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit with zip recruiter. And I know.

Lieven (16:07.726)

And you can pick your ships and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit in Zipper Crew. And I know that Leaven and his people are looking at this kind of stuff. I know, Leaven.

Joel Cheesman (16:19.95)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're getting it right. I know leave, leaving, let, leaving talk. He's, he's on the, yeah, he's on the front lines of this stuff. Your thoughts on job and talent.

Chad (16:22.623)

that Levin and his people are looking at this kind of stuff too. Because you guys are hot into tech. So talk about this, man.

Lieven (16:31.47)

It's very easy. It's really easy. I mean, they're just lying. It's not true. I don't believe it. I mean, they're not making 450 million in the US. That's all fake news.

Joel Cheesman (16:36.302)

Hahaha!

Chad (16:42.431)

Really?

Lieven (16:44.686)

I can't imagine in fact, but no, but seriously, I mean, if that's true, then of course it's true. I'm sure it's true, but that's pretty spectacular. But I wonder that they buy a company in the US that they didn't start from scratch. I can't imagine they built $450 million and two years from scratch.

Chad (17:06.431)

Yes, they've been acquiring staffing companies, but I don't think they have like they were in Europe. Like they bought Norway for God's sakes. We talked about that once show, but they haven't. But the thing is rolling those organizations, those staffing organizations into this tech as like their operating system. And we talked about this with job .com. That is the way forward, but they, job .com fumbled the ball. It seems like these guys might actually know what they're doing.

Lieven (17:15.438)

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Lieven (17:35.63)

Yeah, but we looked into them really good and they're not that digital as they claim to be. I mean, it's a charade that they claim to be a digital platform, but behind the scene there are tons of people actually doing the work. So it's not that digital as anyways, 450 million is impressive and my congratulations to them. And now next question.

Joel Cheesman (17:56.142)

But I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Okay. Well, there's opposing views on the show kids. That's why, that's why we do the show and why we have someone like leaving.

Lieven (17:58.094)

You don't believe it. Don't believe it. Next. No, no, no, I do. I do. It's good. But I think, I think, I think they bought revenue. They bought revenue. They didn't start using their platform from scratch. They just started from, they had a big investor and they bought something and then it's easier. It's never easy, but it's easier.

Joel Cheesman (18:17.486)

Yeah, leaving smells a rat, everybody.

Lieven (18:21.198)

Hmm... Penta don't let.

Joel Cheesman (18:23.566)

Maybe I can say on some Culture Amp news. Culture Amp, an employee experience platform, has announced its acquisition of Orgnostic, a Serbian people analytics company. Orgnostics helps enterprise organizations to identify actionable insights from sources of people data. The acquisition will allow Culture Amp to integrate Orgnostics data engineering and people insights into its platform.

Chad (18:27.295)

Oh, okay.

Lieven (18:27.598)

Uh huh.

Joel Cheesman (18:49.55)

Promising to provide customers with accessible and multi -dimensional people analytics, the product is expected to be available in the second half of 2024. Chad, your thoughts on the Orgnostic acquisition.

Chad (19:04.959)

Well, unless job and talent is buying underneath another company, I only see, I don't see any acquisitions since they've come to the United States. Now on to culture amp. Uh, I'm looking on, on crunch base, looking on crunch base. You had me interested. I was, it was, it was very interesting, uh, culture amp. So employee experience matters, but only after companies were smacked in the fucking face with the great resignation, productivity dropped.

Lieven (19:15.758)

Meh.

Chad (19:34.335)

The and overpriced CEOs had to start making excuses to their boards about margins shrinking. Then big data matters after GPUs and processing speeds allowed large language models to start training on massive amounts of data. All of this. You take a look at what they're doing at at Culture Amp, much like I think job and talent, they've found a wave that nobody was really riding on or even waiting.

And this is around culture. This is around, um, not just, uh, you know, employee experience, but also performance management and employee development. And those products are necessary because if you are an employee, you got to know what your path is forward. And I think that that's pretty smart. Now it's a wave again, that I think it's smart to ride, but much like D E I B.

I don't believe companies are gonna ride this forever. So Coltramp needs to make some noise and sell to a much bigger player in the talent ecosystem within the next 24 months. Cause I don't think this wave is going to stick around.

Joel Cheesman (20:49.806)

Well, first of all, they need to get rid of the Orgnostic brand because that's awful. Orgnostic needs to go away in the next six months for sure. Back to Culture Amp, which I'm no expert on, but I know that they've been around a while and I know that they were a very important product when sites didn't talk to each other. Databases didn't interact with each other. Everything was disparate.

Chad (20:55.071)

That's easy.

Joel Cheesman (21:17.006)

Culture AMP, everything you did in Culture AMP was in that. Now you have a world where everything talks to each other. You have language models now interacting with each other. So Culture AMP needed something to say, okay, we're going to be your sort of walled garden employee engagement system, your upskilling system. We'll do it all for you. And there are so many more companies now and products and services that put those pieces elsewhere. So Orgnostic, as I understand it,

Chad (21:44.191)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (21:45.71)

we'll bring all your ATSs, all your SaaS products together. And now they can bring that data into Culture Amp. So now Culture Amp can start speaking the language of all these other services that are out there. So in theory, it should work really well. Historically, those are pretty hard to pull off. And frankly, if you look at Orgnostics executive team, it looks like a rock band from the 70s who reunited for like one last tour.

So I don't have a lot of faith that this is going to work out, but I know a few people at ColdTramp, they're pretty smart folks. Hopefully they can figure out. On paper, it makes a lot of sense. In practice, I wouldn't put any money on it. We'll see what happens.

Chad (22:17.439)

Nah.

Chad (22:29.471)

Yeah, I do have to say though, we just talked to Jason Corcello over at Acadian and we asked him what was the biggest miss he's had and he said culture ramp. I thought that was interesting that that that interview is going to come out later. Kids don't worry.

Joel Cheesman (22:33.038)

Mm -hmm. We did.

Joel Cheesman (22:43.854)

And that's Mrs. N didn't invest and wished he had. Yeah. Just want to make.

Lieven (22:44.846)

All right.

Chad (22:46.399)

Yeah. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (22:50.926)

Leave in your thoughts.

Lieven (22:53.23)

Okay, well, I totally agree with Joel about the name. Orgnastic, or what's it? Or - Orgnostic? Yeah, or - Orgnostic. Yeah, it's like agnost, but then argnost. Anyways, difficult name, but they're from Serbia. And Serbia is one of the few European countries I've never been, which says it all. But, I must say, I didn't know culture amp.

Chad (23:00.095)

Orgasmic is that what it was orgasmic?

Joel Cheesman (23:01.166)

You

Joel Cheesman (23:07.438)

Oh, it's, yeah, it's not good.

Lieven (23:22.03)

To be honest, I'm not, I can't say much about these kinds of tools because I'm into recruitment into marketing, digital marketing, but I'm not really familiar with HR analytic platforms. That's, that's after the recruitment part and that's another business, but it's not because I have a lack of knowledge that I don't have an opinion, of course. So I'll be happy to share it. But I checked our culture and websites and they claim we get the employee engagement, performance and development tools and insights you'll need to build a category defining culture.

I have no idea what a category -defining culture is, but I think we want one. But I afterwards looked at the agnostic approach, and at first I must say I was a bit skeptical. It's like another HR data dashboard. But their generator -VI demo is really impressive. It's the best I've seen so far. And it's like they put their own GPT on top of the Power BI HR dashboard, whatever. And then...

It actually works and you can ask lots of stupid questions and it comes up with great answers without the hassle you normally have to go through to gather all the data and put it into charts, et cetera. It does a great job. So I can imagine if you're a big company and you have lots of data and you need to prepare something for, let's say, a board meeting, this is a blessing. This is amazing. And I think this actually is a very good buy. So if this was a buy or sell, I would be happily buying.

Joel Cheesman (24:27.662)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:43.854)

Okay.

Lieven (24:44.43)

I liked it. I'm going to follow them.

Chad (24:44.511)

So question, question, even as you talk about business intelligence going into a platform like this, as we take a look at like Gemini and then Google has Looker, which has a, it's a great way to really visualize data. Do you think this, this space is going to get commoditized because a company like Google using large language models like Gemini will, will actually just own it.

Lieven (24:56.622)

Mm.

Lieven (25:14.414)

Well, you have a few companies able to do it. So you have a chat GPT, I open AI, you have Gemini, Google, you have all the others. Let's say four or five, maybe, which are upstandard now. It will be, how do you call it? Commoditized. Yeah, it's a difficult word. Commoditized. Sounds good. I need to use that word more often. I'm going to commoditize you. Yeah, of course. And now another beer. But, um...

Chad (25:17.439)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (25:29.727)

Commoditized, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (25:29.998)

Commoditized. Yeah. Impress your European friends.

Lieven (25:44.046)

No, no, I'm sure. And I'm already building these kinds of GPTs for our own usage. But I'm sure if someone who actually knows what he's doing, it's not difficult to make one, but it's probably very difficult to make the best one. So I'm sure we're going to see great commoditations. How do you say it? Well, you know, but I'm definitely sure this is a big business and this is one to follow. And actually, the first one I saw, which was really convincing, was this one.

So Orgnostic is a company to follow. Orgnostic. Yeah, Orgnostics. Yes. All right. Orgnostic.

Joel Cheesman (26:16.782)

Leaven loves orgasm. I mean, orgnostic.

Chad (26:22.783)

Orgastic.

Joel Cheesman (26:23.214)

We'll be, we'll be right back.

Chad (26:30.911)

Oh, you know what that means. You thought it was over. You thought it was over. Uh -uh. Uh -uh.

Joel Cheesman (26:31.182)

Alright guys, just when you thought Keibu was gone, the conference was over. Oh no no.

Lieven (26:32.174)

KEEVOO!

K, boo.

Joel Cheesman (26:41.038)

All right, leaving. Listeners know that we had your conference recently in Amsterdam. You look like you've recovered nicely. The surveys are in, the opinions are in. Let's talk about the conference. What were your takeaways? What were some of the survey data? What you got?

Lieven (27:00.718)

OK, what do we have? So maybe the most important number, if you will, we sent a survey to the participants. About 30 % actually filled in the survey, which is good. And on average, they scored the whole event 82%, which is good. People are pretty critical. Critical, that's the word, right? So 80 % is good. There were, of course, there were whining about the quality of the food, which.

Chad (27:22.175)

Yep. Yeah.

Lieven (27:28.558)

Mostly were the Belgian participants. No, I know, I know you just ate it all, but the Belgian participants.

Joel Cheesman (27:29.102)

That wasn't me. That wasn't me. Until I found out Chipotle, Chipotle is not in Amsterdam. Other than that, I was a little upset until I realized that. So how many people showed up? It was a full house. Chad and I were there.

Chad (27:33.631)

Yeah, that's why they.

Lieven (27:39.502)

Yeah, but.

470, 570 something, yeah, something like that. It was a full house indeed.

Joel Cheesman (27:48.91)

Full house there. Uh, yeah, I, this thing can grow. I mean, I told you, I think there's no reason why it can't be a lot more people, a lot more sponsors, a real, you know, kind of traditional conference. Sorry.

Lieven (27:56.526)

No, but I know, I know, but that's your American view. We like it's cozy and I know, I know you think, why don't you make it bigger? And then my question would be, why should I make it bigger? We're not into it for the money. We're just, it's all show off, you know, taught leadership, but also it's fun. It's sharing knowledge. Yeah. But in fact, you're right. If you put some effort in it, this could definitely be bigger, but we're still focusing on the quality of the speakers. And.

Joel Cheesman (28:08.174)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (28:15.342)

It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.

Lieven (28:26.318)

We don't focus on sponsors, for example. I mean, Bullhorn was there and I think they were pretty happy and Vonk was there and some other sponsors. But it's not like I made five calls to companies, would you like to sponsor us? We're not into it for the business. We're not into organizing conferences to make money. It's about speakers. And I have the look house of HR is my main sponsor. So our main sponsor, we're organizing it. So.

Joel Cheesman (28:47.854)

So European.

Lieven (28:54.99)

They provide the money I need to get the best speakers. I mean, we could even hire you. Chat and cheese flying over from the United States to Amsterdam. Just, I know.

Joel Cheesman (29:01.614)

I know. That's high dollar. That's high dollar shit.

Chad (29:06.783)

And we have a balcony again and everything that was, uh, this setup was amazing by the way. I, this, this venue and the setup was, was amazing. And I don't care what anybody says having KBU come out after lunch when everybody just, they just got done eating, you know, you get into the after lunch kind of, you know, sleepy phase. Oh no, oh no, not when KBU comes out. Oh no. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (29:14.542)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (29:29.134)

Mm -hmm.

Lieven (29:33.23)

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no

Chad (29:37.215)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:37.454)

You

Joel Cheesman (29:42.254)

Oh, come on. Everyone knows K -Boo at this point. Finland's favorite son, K -Boo. K -Boo.

Chad (29:44.639)

Yeah

Joel Cheesman (30:00.238)

It was there.

Lieven (30:02.99)

After the whole Congress, he gave his whole start of the European tour, which is sold out, by the way. But it was fun. Then I'm not going to get into much detail about all the keynotes and what they said. We have a document with the three key takeaways from all speakers. I shared it on LinkedIn. You can find it somewhere. You might have to put some effort in it, but I'm sure you will. Sure, definitely.

Joel Cheesman (30:07.246)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:24.046)

Um, would you be okay if I gave some, uh, some of my takeaways just real quickly? Uh, so, so the first thing is always the question we talk about AI automation. People ask, are we in a, we're in for a world with fewer recruiters and keynotes are very good about dancing around, not saying no, we'll still need lots of recruiters. And they always look so uncomfortable talking about that. I think that it's okay to come to the realization that.

Chad (30:39.743)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:53.582)

The world will need fewer recruiters as we evolve this technology. That doesn't mean recruiters are gone and the ones that we have will be kick ass and really, really good at what they do. But the dancing around, we're not going to lose recruiters, I think is, is just false and we should stop doing that. The second thing I took away, um, the comment of, uh, people will stop looking for jobs and jobs will start looking for people or jobs will start finding people.

Uh, that was, uh, one of Borman's takeaways or my takeaway from his, uh, his session that stuck with me. And I think that, uh, the thought of a co -pilot, which also came out, I think in the questioning, uh, the Q and a that Chad and I did with bill was that people will have these co -pilots and they will find restaurants for you and they will find, uh, you know, the cheapest hotel for you. And they will also potentially find the best job for you. So a world with these co -pilots.

that do the work, I think is something that we should keep our eye on. And lastly, um, Hilkey, who we've interviewed on the show, a New York times reporter talked about bias and AI and the testing that goes on. I mean, she really, uh, sort of crystallize or encapsulated exactly the craziness that goes on in some of these tests. I mean, like pushing the space bar and seeing how fast you can do it as some sort of prerequisite to getting hired.

It's really not just dumb. It's also incredibly, uh, prejudice against people that might have disabilities that make it harder for them to push the space bar if they can push it at all in some cases. So to me, that was super eye opening, but those were a couple of takeaways that I had, uh, from the conference being in Europe. The, the point of view is, is refreshing the way that you look at the world is a little bit different. And that's always, uh, refreshing for me as well.

Chad (32:17.183)

Yeah.

Lieven (32:17.326)

Yeah.

Lieven (32:24.814)

Thanks.

Chad (32:44.863)

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was convergence. I mean, what we were talking about 10 years in the US was not being talked about in Europe. It felt like two entirely different ecosystems, but today I feel like they are becoming one. And everybody understands that obviously, you know, we have turned into a global economy, but we haven't acted like it. It almost feels like on both, on both...

sides of the pond that we're starting to see this convergence of what is important and what we're leaning towards. So that was amazing. I just love going to this conference mainly because of that piece so that we can learn in this case, you know, from the Dutch that were all around us, but also from the Belgians who took a train in.

Lieven (33:34.35)

And I agree with what you said about Hilke. She said something and she actually proved it, something I always suspected, that most of those HR tools are just full of shit. So they claim they're measuring all kinds of metrics and they give you a score and they do the matching, et cetera. It's just bullshit. And she tested it and a tool measuring or figuring out how your English skills were.

Joel Cheesman (33:45.486)

Mm -hmm.

Lieven (34:03.694)

She spoke German to it and she got a 70 .5 % English. And she confronted the makers of the tool with this ridiculous results. And they said, yeah, but it's about how convincing you sound even in German, something like that. So that's indeed that's bullshit. And it's something HR has to be always aware of that they can be scammed and they will be. But...

Joel Cheesman (34:07.79)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (34:19.79)

Yeah.

Chad (34:27.007)

Yes.

Lieven (34:29.358)

We have some very interesting, I always liked John Norton as well from a staffing industry analyst. He gave a great presentation about how AI is impacting already our business. And I'm talking about the staffing industry. Some others were really interesting as well. So even though it's my Congress, I'm probably biased also. And Hilke is constantly telling us not to be biased. But I liked it. It was good. You should be there next year.

Joel Cheesman (34:34.573)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (34:56.863)

Are we doing it in Amsterdam in the same place next year? That's the question. Come on, don't tease us.

Joel Cheesman (34:58.318)

Yeah, any insights in the next year?

Lieven (35:00.078)

Ah, could be, but Jovo constantly tells me I have to make it bigger so then we need a bigger location. I don't know.

Joel Cheesman (35:07.246)

Since when do you, since when do you or any, anybody listens to me? Jesus, Jesus.

Chad (35:07.359)

Yeah, last thing you need to do is listen to an American. All I got to say is I'm just happy you didn't punch us both in the face when we went out and we wouldn't stop saying, I ain't leaving.

Lieven (35:11.246)

I'm sorry.

Lieven (35:19.534)

Yeah, but I was after the

Joel Cheesman (35:20.142)

while drinking Red Bull and Jaegerbombs compliments of Bill Borman. Well, let's hope it's not the last sound bite that we hear from Kebu on this show. Everybody enjoyed it as usual. We out.

Lieven (35:26.67)

Yeah, and 15 Belgian beers.

Chad (35:40.639)

We out.

Lieven (35:40.942)

We out.

Joel Cheesman (00:29.422)

OOOOHHH Yeah, three guys forever suffering from a total eclipse of the heart. You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast as Europe. I'm your cohost, Joel Dusseldorf Cheeseman.

Chad (00:44.991)

This is Chad, turn around, bright eyes, so wash.

Lieven (00:49.326)

And I'm leaving, not centrusted in your stupid eclipse. Funny when I am.

Joel Cheesman (00:54.19)

And on this episode, job and talent goes West, orgnostic gets amped up, and final thoughts from the eRecruitment conference. Let's do this.

Chad (01:08.895)

What do you mean you don't care about it? Was it because you were not in the path of totality, Levin? Are you jealous? Were you left out, huh?

Joel Cheesman (01:13.55)

He was left out. The whole con.

Lieven (01:18.158)

I kept staring at the sun, I didn't see one eclipse at all, so it was fake news. No eclipse... doesn't exist.

Joel Cheesman (01:25.038)

You pulled a Trump and stared at the sun all day. That's, that's not healthy, leaving. Not healthy.

Lieven (01:27.79)

I mean...

Yeah, I read about it indeed. The glasses were to woke for Trump or something. You shouldn't wear them. Oh, wow.

Joel Cheesman (01:36.366)

Yeah. I have a theory that you and CABU were hanging out in Finland. That's my, that's my, that's my theory. Trying to watch in the Northern lights or something.

Chad (01:41.023)

More than life.

Lieven (01:43.054)

I think in Finland it's still dark.

add something else than your stupid eclipse normal lights

Chad (01:47.519)

He doesn't.

Joel Cheesman (01:53.07)

You're bitter today. Look, this, so we've got like Chad, Chad's on the cusp of Euro Chad. He's like on cloud nine, riding high and, and at neon Chad, freshly shorn Chad. Uh, yeah. And leaving in all black as usual. Uh, just, just, uh,

Lieven (01:55.054)

No, no, no, no, I'm happy.

Chad (01:55.263)

HATEFUL

Chad (01:59.263)

Yes. I'm also Neo, Neon Chad. See this?

Lieven (02:02.926)

Yeah, it's nice. I didn't even see it. Damn. Cool.

Chad (02:12.159)

As usual, he's getting ready. He's still auditioning for sprockets.

Lieven (02:13.358)

This is Navy, Navy blue. I said it before, Navy blue. What is Prakets?

Joel Cheesman (02:15.982)

Navy blue, my bad. Midnight blue.

Joel Cheesman (02:21.038)

You

Lieven (02:24.206)

Do I wanna know what sprocket is? I don't know sprockets, no.

Joel Cheesman (02:24.8)

Jesus, you don't know sprockets? Oh, I don't know if you can get SNL clips on YouTube out in Europe. Can you? Well, if you, yeah, if you search sprockets, sprockets SNL from the nineties and old, an old German, old German, German skit, it's good. It's good stuff.

Chad (02:26.207)

Oh, Saturday Night Live. Oh, I think you can. I think you can get the sprockets. Yeah. Touch my monkey. Touch my monkey.

Lieven (02:33.23)

sprockets. No touch my monkey. Most definitely not touch her monkey.

Chad (02:43.391)

just got turned down. No, no touching. All right. I'm going to give a shout out to, to, to European wages. And this is what I mean. Uh, so a study came out and showed pretty much what every European country was getting paid, you know, from top to bottom. Not going to go through all of those. Actually, I want to compare them to, to, uh, the, the U S um, Luxembourg is $47 or

Joel Cheesman (02:47.31)

Chad, what you got?

Chad (03:12.255)

47 euros 20 per hour compare Wow 20 47 20 yes, it's it's an average. It's an average and then the the highest paid state in the United States is and I did today's conversion is 34 25 euro, so we're talking about a pretty huge discrepancy 47 20

Lieven (03:16.462)

on average.

Joel Cheesman (03:19.438)

Party in Luxembourg, baby.

Chad (03:41.407)

to 35 .25, those are the highs in both. So there are five European countries that are above Massachusetts salary per hour rate, Belgium being one of those, leaving. And there are 10 European countries that are above 30 euro salary per hour or dollars per hour rate, which is $32 an hour for all you Americans that are listening. So yeah, shout out to getting paid.

Lieven (03:53.71)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (04:08.558)

So, so tax tax tax, the Chousets is the highest hourly way it's tax to choose. All right. Uh, so I'm going to, I'm going to take that, uh, shout out into the gutter with my next, uh, shout out. So Chad, you and I, you and I grew up in the seventies, uh, and I'm going to assume that you were at least at one truck stop, uh, in your, in your youth. If you, if you were in a truck stop gas station bathroom,

Lieven (04:08.814)

Thanks a -Ju -Sits!

Chad (04:12.895)

Getting paid.

Lieven (04:15.182)

Yeah.

Chad (04:26.719)

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Chad (04:31.135)

Jesus. Sticky floor.

Joel Cheesman (04:37.23)

in the seventies and you were a child, you got some sex ed. You got the coin slotted French tickler. You learned that it had to be ribbed for her pleasure. Those are gone. I haven't seen any of those for decades, but thankfully Germany, these coin operated sex machines are still a thing. So.

Chad (04:47.967)

Condom machine.

Lieven (04:51.214)

French tickler, nice.

Joel Cheesman (05:04.75)

So let me, let me read you some of the, uh, the, the products at, in a German. I think this was a Dusseldorf that I was visiting. Uh, you've got, uh, you've got the Billy boy, which is a condom. I think you've got the love ring vibro, which looks like it's, I don't know if, I don't know if the batteries come with it or you got it like put the batteries in separately, but, but that was fun. Uh, you got, you had a minute, many, many vibrate, many vibrator, uh, and you had the, I'll, I'll, I'll mispronounce this, but the D.

Lieven (05:05.199)

and

Chad (05:16.895)

Okay. Okay. Oh.

Lieven (05:19.118)

Of course, that's a classic.

Lieven (05:26.126)

You just move it by hand.

Joel Cheesman (05:34.446)

Kunchstiche, Stika, vagina, which is the travel vagina. So it's a party in a German bathroom. I didn't have to go to a truck stop for this. It was just in a regular city square bathroom. So shout out to the Deutschland bathrooms. A lot of fun.

Chad (05:39.999)

Oh, okay.

Lieven (05:40.11)

Okay.

Chad (05:43.039)

Hmm.

Chad (05:51.487)

Yeah, you don't see that in puritanic, uh, America. No, only, only, only in truck stops only in trucks.

Joel Cheesman (05:54.574)

You used to. Back when America was great, you could have the French tickler.

Joel Cheesman (06:04.27)

the hubs of commercial, commercial success, truck stops. Top that one, Levin.

Lieven (06:06.158)

Hello.

I've never seen them, so I think I don't frequent the places you do Joel, not even one in Dusseldorf now. But I don't feel like I'm missing a lot. Okay, okay, I have to admit it, I have one in my room. But...

Chad (06:13.535)

Imagine that.

Joel Cheesman (06:18.574)

Play coy with me, Leaven.

The guy's got a tree house in his backyard telling me he's not freaky.

Lieven (06:26.606)

That's right. That's right. In fact, it's a tree mansion. We call it a tree mansion because the house is so common. OK, the House of Commons. Anyways, Chet, you were talking about those wages. Did you know in Belgium we have something called the Automatic Wage Indexing System? Is this something? This is actually pretty cool. So at the moment, the.

Joel Cheesman (06:31.534)

Free Manchin, nice.

Chad (06:43.263)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (06:50.239)

Did not.

Joel Cheesman (06:53.294)

Tell us more.

Lieven (06:55.694)

the life cost is increasing, then the wages are indexed automatically. So people in Belgium will always have the same buying power. That was the whole idea. So the moment there is some kind of a price index and when let's say you go to the grocery store and you put all these things in your baskets, the moment the price on average is going above certain limits, everyone's wages are indexed by 5%, 3%, whatever. So last year with the

with the whole, we had to index prices, sorry, wages five times in one year, because everything was getting so expensive because of the crisis in Ukraine and people got a salary raise five times in one year. That's pretty impressive. So that's why we have the highest wages, I think, in Europe next to Luxembourg, which isn't a country at all, so we don't account them.

But that's why I'm just happy to educate you, American bumpkins. You're welcome. You're welcome. Okay. My shout out goes to the German unions for the first time in my life. I'm giving a shout out to the unions and why? Because they were the first to get on the barricades and defend robots rights to take a day off. And this actually is a fact. So the German court rules robots must take Sundays off. So the legal battle was triggered by.

Chad (07:57.599)

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Chad (08:06.303)

Oh wow.

Lieven (08:23.214)

Yeah, I know, I know.

Joel Cheesman (08:24.366)

Yeah.

Lieven (08:26.094)

So the union fundamentally opposes Sunday shopping, arguing that retail staff needs Sunday as a guaranteed day off to spend time with family and friends. And there was a retailer in Germany who had a totally automated mini shop chain. He hadn't, no one was working for him at all. And he had to close down his automated shops on Sunday because of the robots. So he had to, they needed the day off too. And the union...

Chad (08:34.847)

Now, that's something.

Lieven (08:54.126)

triggers the whole legal battle and the court followed it. So shout out to the unions for protecting the rights of the robots.

Chad (09:02.239)

That's right. And then on Sundays, you can't even get them maintained because nobody's allowed to work. So, I mean, you know, it'd be different if you could have maintenance on that day.

Lieven (09:07.054)

Ah no, of course.

No, if you ran out of coke in the vending machine then nobody is allowed to put a new one in. I wonder what they do with the bakeries on Sunday. Probably it's allowed. Should be. Yeah, of course. Not in German, you get Kaiser breads.

Chad (09:25.503)

We all need a good croissant.

Joel Cheesman (09:25.806)

What do you think they'll do about the robots and

Chad (09:31.295)

guys for watching guys for braida

Joel Cheesman (09:32.238)

What do you think Scotland will do about the robots, Chad? Anything? No.

Lieven (09:37.582)

I'll abuse him probably.

Chad (09:37.759)

Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll be amazing.

Joel Cheesman (09:42.83)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:49.71)

So some, some quick travel. Uh, we just got back from Amsterdam not too long ago, but Chad and I'll be headed to Scotland, uh, in May for a little Scotch slash interviews slash exciting conversations with exciting Scott Scottish startups. And then, uh, don't forget, uh, rec fest in July. Uh, I'll be there. Allegedly a coal cheeseman, uh, spotting will be a year number two in the making. Uh, I need someone to help pass out those t -shirts and.

Chad (10:09.727)

right.

Chad (10:16.543)

our equipment pack mule. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (10:19.342)

and, uh, sneak in, uh, chugs of beer while I'm not looking my seven 17. Yeah. Shh. Shh. They're listening, Chad. They're listening. They're listening. Chad. Don't, don't say anything. Don't say anything.

Chad (10:24.159)

Beer? More like whiskey. He was drinking everything. That kid was drinking everything.

Chad (10:35.263)

ZAPI!

Joel Cheesman (10:38.574)

All right, kids, job and talent experienced substantial growth in the U S market in 2023. Revenue came in at $450 million. That's a 22 % increase year on year. And the U S became the company's largest and fastest growing market as well as its most profitable in 2024, 2024 job and talent plans to further expand its market share in the U S by rolling out a revamped.

product suite aiming to transform the interactions between businesses and workers. Chad, your thoughts on the growth of job and talent.

Chad (11:15.487)

Well, Joel, I've got to bring up that back in May of 2022, you pondered whether job and talent would be all in on the US regional strategy and then, you know, leave and laughed at us because they were considered a region or if they were just playing a little game of just the tip. I think we can say that they're all in, there's no question. But you also said that coming to America would be a disaster for them. It hasn't, hasn't seemed to turn out that way.

Joel Cheesman (11:41.87)

Hmm.

Chad (11:44.127)

The US job market right now is booming in all the shift work arenas, which is exactly where job and talent plays I've said it on several podcasts prior to this one not just about job and talent but the staffing company industry that are the staffing company that Uber rises shift work wins job and talent is still small and Start -up II enough to be nimble while the a decos and ronstads are way too slow and lethargic. They just can't

They can't do something like this. They're just way too damn big. But what Uber is doing for rides and eats, Job and Talent is doing for a multitude of different jobs. And where Job and Talent are flourishing is around high volume jobs. So if you're in need of a new gig or just some extra cash, you can search for jobs near you, which everybody does on Google, review the hourly rate.

Joel Cheesman (12:17.006)

Yeah.

Chad (12:41.375)

watch videos of the tasks you're gonna be performing at that job and then apply. And as it says on the website, quote, no resume required, just answer some simple questions in our app and get the job. Plus you get paid in the damn app. So this is the future of shift work and job and talent announcement of 22 % year over year growth last year and generating 450 million in revenue.

Joel Cheesman (13:01.838)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:09.774)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (13:10.079)

feels like just the start. I'm waiting to see which companies try to buy these guys and or emulate because I mean, this is big kudos. Not many companies come to the US and do well. You even see companies who are already in the US like job .com who said they want to do this and they're having problems. Rumor mill says even making payroll right now, right? Staffing. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:24.686)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:36.302)

Oh, sounds like a tease.

Chad (13:39.135)

Yeah, so anyway, yeah, big kudos to Job and Talent. 450 mil.

Joel Cheesman (13:45.166)

So you're going to call me out like that on the podcast chat. That's, that's, that's not cool. That's not cool. Uh, uh, yeah. So look, so far, so good. Uh, and when you get a, what, a million, 3 billion, uh, a hundred or $1 .3 billion in investment, you should be able to grow and come to a new country. Uh, these guys have been around since 2009.

Lieven (13:48.174)

Ha ha ha.

Chad (13:48.255)

I, hey, it's all about history. It's history.

Joel Cheesman (14:08.174)

You've got organic growth and you've got immense investment into this company. So you kind of have the best of both worlds there for them, which is nice. The, the, the thing that they did right though, is that this country needs hourly workers and gig workers. 76 million workers were paid on hourly rates last year. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people and whether they knew this or not coming in, uh,

Chad (14:32.319)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (14:37.902)

It's an election year and it's looking like whichever party gets in, there's going to be a border thing. There's going to be a closing or deportation depending on who gets in. And you know what that means? That means even fewer workers than there already are to do hourly positions. So job and talent, whether they plan this or not politically is an incredibly good spot because we're ready to like shut down or slow down the immigration, which means.

Chad (14:56.255)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (15:06.766)

Companies are going to pay a shit ton of money to find and hire hourly workers, gig workers, et cetera. So they're not even in every state yet. Uh, they're going to roll this thing out. They've got money to advertise. I think they're going to go full steam ahead on marketing this thing. The name kind of sucks, uh, frankly. Um, so they need to market this thing to build a brand around it. But yeah, this is blue skies in part because the investment in part because 76 million people in this country are hourly workers.

Lieven (15:28.942)

This is Blue skies.

Joel Cheesman (15:35.246)

And politically we're setting this thing up on a silver platter for job and talent, uh, to crush the U S market. So congratulations, Chad, uh, and calling me out on the show and, uh, congratulations to job and talent who looks like, uh, they're going to do really well. What is the question is. They're like, what's up with zip recruiter? This is their sweet spot. It used to be. I mean, it's, it's, uh, yeah, I, yeah, maybe it's the tech. Yeah. It's it's.

Lieven (15:56.27)

Dude, I just told you, it's the test. It's the test that they're doing. It's the test.

Chad (15:56.415)

Dude, I just told you it's the tech, the tech that they're doing. It's the tech. When you, when you're a worker and you can just literally, you can go in and you can pick your shifts and you can, and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the, at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit with zip recruiter. And I know.

Lieven (16:07.726)

And you can pick your ships and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit in Zipper Crew. And I know that Leaven and his people are looking at this kind of stuff. I know, Leaven.

Joel Cheesman (16:19.95)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're getting it right. I know leave, leaving, let, leaving talk. He's, he's on the, yeah, he's on the front lines of this stuff. Your thoughts on job and talent.

Chad (16:22.623)

that Levin and his people are looking at this kind of stuff too. Because you guys are hot into tech. So talk about this, man.

Lieven (16:31.47)

It's very easy. It's really easy. I mean, they're just lying. It's not true. I don't believe it. I mean, they're not making 450 million in the US. That's all fake news.

Joel Cheesman (16:36.302)

Hahaha!

Chad (16:42.431)

Really?

Lieven (16:44.686)

I can't imagine in fact, but no, but seriously, I mean, if that's true, then of course it's true. I'm sure it's true, but that's pretty spectacular. But I wonder that they buy a company in the US that they didn't start from scratch. I can't imagine they built $450 million and two years from scratch.

Chad (17:06.431)

Yes, they've been acquiring staffing companies, but I don't think they have like they were in Europe. Like they bought Norway for God's sakes. We talked about that once show, but they haven't. But the thing is rolling those organizations, those staffing organizations into this tech as like their operating system. And we talked about this with job .com. That is the way forward, but they, job .com fumbled the ball. It seems like these guys might actually know what they're doing.

Lieven (17:15.438)

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Lieven (17:35.63)

Yeah, but we looked into them really good and they're not that digital as they claim to be. I mean, it's a charade that they claim to be a digital platform, but behind the scene there are tons of people actually doing the work. So it's not that digital as anyways, 450 million is impressive and my congratulations to them. And now next question.

Joel Cheesman (17:56.142)

But I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Okay. Well, there's opposing views on the show kids. That's why, that's why we do the show and why we have someone like leaving.

Lieven (17:58.094)

You don't believe it. Don't believe it. Next. No, no, no, I do. I do. It's good. But I think, I think, I think they bought revenue. They bought revenue. They didn't start using their platform from scratch. They just started from, they had a big investor and they bought something and then it's easier. It's never easy, but it's easier.

Joel Cheesman (18:17.486)

Yeah, leaving smells a rat, everybody.

Lieven (18:21.198)

Hmm... Penta don't let.

Joel Cheesman (18:23.566)

Maybe I can say on some Culture Amp news. Culture Amp, an employee experience platform, has announced its acquisition of Orgnostic, a Serbian people analytics company. Orgnostics helps enterprise organizations to identify actionable insights from sources of people data. The acquisition will allow Culture Amp to integrate Orgnostics data engineering and people insights into its platform.

Chad (18:27.295)

Oh, okay.

Lieven (18:27.598)

Uh huh.

Joel Cheesman (18:49.55)

Promising to provide customers with accessible and multi -dimensional people analytics, the product is expected to be available in the second half of 2024. Chad, your thoughts on the Orgnostic acquisition.

Chad (19:04.959)

Well, unless job and talent is buying underneath another company, I only see, I don't see any acquisitions since they've come to the United States. Now on to culture amp. Uh, I'm looking on, on crunch base, looking on crunch base. You had me interested. I was, it was, it was very interesting, uh, culture amp. So employee experience matters, but only after companies were smacked in the fucking face with the great resignation, productivity dropped.

Lieven (19:15.758)

Meh.

Chad (19:34.335)

The and overpriced CEOs had to start making excuses to their boards about margins shrinking. Then big data matters after GPUs and processing speeds allowed large language models to start training on massive amounts of data. All of this. You take a look at what they're doing at at Culture Amp, much like I think job and talent, they've found a wave that nobody was really riding on or even waiting.

And this is around culture. This is around, um, not just, uh, you know, employee experience, but also performance management and employee development. And those products are necessary because if you are an employee, you got to know what your path is forward. And I think that that's pretty smart. Now it's a wave again, that I think it's smart to ride, but much like D E I B.

I don't believe companies are gonna ride this forever. So Coltramp needs to make some noise and sell to a much bigger player in the talent ecosystem within the next 24 months. Cause I don't think this wave is going to stick around.

Joel Cheesman (20:49.806)

Well, first of all, they need to get rid of the Orgnostic brand because that's awful. Orgnostic needs to go away in the next six months for sure. Back to Culture Amp, which I'm no expert on, but I know that they've been around a while and I know that they were a very important product when sites didn't talk to each other. Databases didn't interact with each other. Everything was disparate.

Chad (20:55.071)

That's easy.

Joel Cheesman (21:17.006)

Culture AMP, everything you did in Culture AMP was in that. Now you have a world where everything talks to each other. You have language models now interacting with each other. So Culture AMP needed something to say, okay, we're going to be your sort of walled garden employee engagement system, your upskilling system. We'll do it all for you. And there are so many more companies now and products and services that put those pieces elsewhere. So Orgnostic, as I understand it,

Chad (21:44.191)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (21:45.71)

we'll bring all your ATSs, all your SaaS products together. And now they can bring that data into Culture Amp. So now Culture Amp can start speaking the language of all these other services that are out there. So in theory, it should work really well. Historically, those are pretty hard to pull off. And frankly, if you look at Orgnostics executive team, it looks like a rock band from the 70s who reunited for like one last tour.

So I don't have a lot of faith that this is going to work out, but I know a few people at ColdTramp, they're pretty smart folks. Hopefully they can figure out. On paper, it makes a lot of sense. In practice, I wouldn't put any money on it. We'll see what happens.

Chad (22:17.439)

Nah.

Chad (22:29.471)

Yeah, I do have to say though, we just talked to Jason Corcello over at Acadian and we asked him what was the biggest miss he's had and he said culture ramp. I thought that was interesting that that that interview is going to come out later. Kids don't worry.

Joel Cheesman (22:33.038)

Mm -hmm. We did.

Joel Cheesman (22:43.854)

And that's Mrs. N didn't invest and wished he had. Yeah. Just want to make.

Lieven (22:44.846)

All right.

Chad (22:46.399)

Yeah. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (22:50.926)

Leave in your thoughts.

Lieven (22:53.23)

Okay, well, I totally agree with Joel about the name. Orgnastic, or what's it? Or - Orgnostic? Yeah, or - Orgnostic. Yeah, it's like agnost, but then argnost. Anyways, difficult name, but they're from Serbia. And Serbia is one of the few European countries I've never been, which says it all. But, I must say, I didn't know culture amp.

Chad (23:00.095)

Orgasmic is that what it was orgasmic?

Joel Cheesman (23:01.166)

You

Joel Cheesman (23:07.438)

Oh, it's, yeah, it's not good.

Lieven (23:22.03)

To be honest, I'm not, I can't say much about these kinds of tools because I'm into recruitment into marketing, digital marketing, but I'm not really familiar with HR analytic platforms. That's, that's after the recruitment part and that's another business, but it's not because I have a lack of knowledge that I don't have an opinion, of course. So I'll be happy to share it. But I checked our culture and websites and they claim we get the employee engagement, performance and development tools and insights you'll need to build a category defining culture.

I have no idea what a category -defining culture is, but I think we want one. But I afterwards looked at the agnostic approach, and at first I must say I was a bit skeptical. It's like another HR data dashboard. But their generator -VI demo is really impressive. It's the best I've seen so far. And it's like they put their own GPT on top of the Power BI HR dashboard, whatever. And then...

It actually works and you can ask lots of stupid questions and it comes up with great answers without the hassle you normally have to go through to gather all the data and put it into charts, et cetera. It does a great job. So I can imagine if you're a big company and you have lots of data and you need to prepare something for, let's say, a board meeting, this is a blessing. This is amazing. And I think this actually is a very good buy. So if this was a buy or sell, I would be happily buying.

Joel Cheesman (24:27.662)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:43.854)

Okay.

Lieven (24:44.43)

I liked it. I'm going to follow them.

Chad (24:44.511)

So question, question, even as you talk about business intelligence going into a platform like this, as we take a look at like Gemini and then Google has Looker, which has a, it's a great way to really visualize data. Do you think this, this space is going to get commoditized because a company like Google using large language models like Gemini will, will actually just own it.

Lieven (24:56.622)

Mm.

Lieven (25:14.414)

Well, you have a few companies able to do it. So you have a chat GPT, I open AI, you have Gemini, Google, you have all the others. Let's say four or five, maybe, which are upstandard now. It will be, how do you call it? Commoditized. Yeah, it's a difficult word. Commoditized. Sounds good. I need to use that word more often. I'm going to commoditize you. Yeah, of course. And now another beer. But, um...

Chad (25:17.439)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (25:29.727)

Commoditized, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (25:29.998)

Commoditized. Yeah. Impress your European friends.

Lieven (25:44.046)

No, no, I'm sure. And I'm already building these kinds of GPTs for our own usage. But I'm sure if someone who actually knows what he's doing, it's not difficult to make one, but it's probably very difficult to make the best one. So I'm sure we're going to see great commoditations. How do you say it? Well, you know, but I'm definitely sure this is a big business and this is one to follow. And actually, the first one I saw, which was really convincing, was this one.

So Orgnostic is a company to follow. Orgnostic. Yeah, Orgnostics. Yes. All right. Orgnostic.

Joel Cheesman (26:16.782)

Leaven loves orgasm. I mean, orgnostic.

Chad (26:22.783)

Orgastic.

Joel Cheesman (26:23.214)

We'll be, we'll be right back.

Chad (26:30.911)

Oh, you know what that means. You thought it was over. You thought it was over. Uh -uh. Uh -uh.

Joel Cheesman (26:31.182)

Alright guys, just when you thought Keibu was gone, the conference was over. Oh no no.

Lieven (26:32.174)

KEEVOO!

K, boo.

Joel Cheesman (26:41.038)

All right, leaving. Listeners know that we had your conference recently in Amsterdam. You look like you've recovered nicely. The surveys are in, the opinions are in. Let's talk about the conference. What were your takeaways? What were some of the survey data? What you got?

Lieven (27:00.718)

OK, what do we have? So maybe the most important number, if you will, we sent a survey to the participants. About 30 % actually filled in the survey, which is good. And on average, they scored the whole event 82%, which is good. People are pretty critical. Critical, that's the word, right? So 80 % is good. There were, of course, there were whining about the quality of the food, which.

Chad (27:22.175)

Yep. Yeah.

Lieven (27:28.558)

Mostly were the Belgian participants. No, I know, I know you just ate it all, but the Belgian participants.

Joel Cheesman (27:29.102)

That wasn't me. That wasn't me. Until I found out Chipotle, Chipotle is not in Amsterdam. Other than that, I was a little upset until I realized that. So how many people showed up? It was a full house. Chad and I were there.

Chad (27:33.631)

Yeah, that's why they.

Lieven (27:39.502)

Yeah, but.

470, 570 something, yeah, something like that. It was a full house indeed.

Joel Cheesman (27:48.91)

Full house there. Uh, yeah, I, this thing can grow. I mean, I told you, I think there's no reason why it can't be a lot more people, a lot more sponsors, a real, you know, kind of traditional conference. Sorry.

Lieven (27:56.526)

No, but I know, I know, but that's your American view. We like it's cozy and I know, I know you think, why don't you make it bigger? And then my question would be, why should I make it bigger? We're not into it for the money. We're just, it's all show off, you know, taught leadership, but also it's fun. It's sharing knowledge. Yeah. But in fact, you're right. If you put some effort in it, this could definitely be bigger, but we're still focusing on the quality of the speakers. And.

Joel Cheesman (28:08.174)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (28:15.342)

It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.

Lieven (28:26.318)

We don't focus on sponsors, for example. I mean, Bullhorn was there and I think they were pretty happy and Vonk was there and some other sponsors. But it's not like I made five calls to companies, would you like to sponsor us? We're not into it for the business. We're not into organizing conferences to make money. It's about speakers. And I have the look house of HR is my main sponsor. So our main sponsor, we're organizing it. So.

Joel Cheesman (28:47.854)

So European.

Lieven (28:54.99)

They provide the money I need to get the best speakers. I mean, we could even hire you. Chat and cheese flying over from the United States to Amsterdam. Just, I know.

Joel Cheesman (29:01.614)

I know. That's high dollar. That's high dollar shit.

Chad (29:06.783)

And we have a balcony again and everything that was, uh, this setup was amazing by the way. I, this, this venue and the setup was, was amazing. And I don't care what anybody says having KBU come out after lunch when everybody just, they just got done eating, you know, you get into the after lunch kind of, you know, sleepy phase. Oh no, oh no, not when KBU comes out. Oh no. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (29:14.542)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (29:29.134)

Mm -hmm.

Lieven (29:33.23)

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no

Chad (29:37.215)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:37.454)

You

Joel Cheesman (29:42.254)

Oh, come on. Everyone knows K -Boo at this point. Finland's favorite son, K -Boo. K -Boo.

Chad (29:44.639)

Yeah

Joel Cheesman (30:00.238)

It was there.

Lieven (30:02.99)

After the whole Congress, he gave his whole start of the European tour, which is sold out, by the way. But it was fun. Then I'm not going to get into much detail about all the keynotes and what they said. We have a document with the three key takeaways from all speakers. I shared it on LinkedIn. You can find it somewhere. You might have to put some effort in it, but I'm sure you will. Sure, definitely.

Joel Cheesman (30:07.246)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:24.046)

Um, would you be okay if I gave some, uh, some of my takeaways just real quickly? Uh, so, so the first thing is always the question we talk about AI automation. People ask, are we in a, we're in for a world with fewer recruiters and keynotes are very good about dancing around, not saying no, we'll still need lots of recruiters. And they always look so uncomfortable talking about that. I think that it's okay to come to the realization that.

Chad (30:39.743)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:53.582)

The world will need fewer recruiters as we evolve this technology. That doesn't mean recruiters are gone and the ones that we have will be kick ass and really, really good at what they do. But the dancing around, we're not going to lose recruiters, I think is, is just false and we should stop doing that. The second thing I took away, um, the comment of, uh, people will stop looking for jobs and jobs will start looking for people or jobs will start finding people.

Uh, that was, uh, one of Borman's takeaways or my takeaway from his, uh, his session that stuck with me. And I think that, uh, the thought of a co -pilot, which also came out, I think in the questioning, uh, the Q and a that Chad and I did with bill was that people will have these co -pilots and they will find restaurants for you and they will find, uh, you know, the cheapest hotel for you. And they will also potentially find the best job for you. So a world with these co -pilots.

that do the work, I think is something that we should keep our eye on. And lastly, um, Hilkey, who we've interviewed on the show, a New York times reporter talked about bias and AI and the testing that goes on. I mean, she really, uh, sort of crystallize or encapsulated exactly the craziness that goes on in some of these tests. I mean, like pushing the space bar and seeing how fast you can do it as some sort of prerequisite to getting hired.

It's really not just dumb. It's also incredibly, uh, prejudice against people that might have disabilities that make it harder for them to push the space bar if they can push it at all in some cases. So to me, that was super eye opening, but those were a couple of takeaways that I had, uh, from the conference being in Europe. The, the point of view is, is refreshing the way that you look at the world is a little bit different. And that's always, uh, refreshing for me as well.

Chad (32:17.183)

Yeah.

Lieven (32:17.326)

Yeah.

Lieven (32:24.814)

Thanks.

Chad (32:44.863)

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was convergence. I mean, what we were talking about 10 years in the US was not being talked about in Europe. It felt like two entirely different ecosystems, but today I feel like they are becoming one. And everybody understands that obviously, you know, we have turned into a global economy, but we haven't acted like it. It almost feels like on both, on both...

sides of the pond that we're starting to see this convergence of what is important and what we're leaning towards. So that was amazing. I just love going to this conference mainly because of that piece so that we can learn in this case, you know, from the Dutch that were all around us, but also from the Belgians who took a train in.

Lieven (33:34.35)

And I agree with what you said about Hilke. She said something and she actually proved it, something I always suspected, that most of those HR tools are just full of shit. So they claim they're measuring all kinds of metrics and they give you a score and they do the matching, et cetera. It's just bullshit. And she tested it and a tool measuring or figuring out how your English skills were.

Joel Cheesman (33:45.486)

Mm -hmm.

Lieven (34:03.694)

She spoke German to it and she got a 70 .5 % English. And she confronted the makers of the tool with this ridiculous results. And they said, yeah, but it's about how convincing you sound even in German, something like that. So that's indeed that's bullshit. And it's something HR has to be always aware of that they can be scammed and they will be. But...

Joel Cheesman (34:07.79)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (34:19.79)

Yeah.

Chad (34:27.007)

Yes.

Lieven (34:29.358)

We have some very interesting, I always liked John Norton as well from a staffing industry analyst. He gave a great presentation about how AI is impacting already our business. And I'm talking about the staffing industry. Some others were really interesting as well. So even though it's my Congress, I'm probably biased also. And Hilke is constantly telling us not to be biased. But I liked it. It was good. You should be there next year.

Joel Cheesman (34:34.573)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (34:56.863)

Are we doing it in Amsterdam in the same place next year? That's the question. Come on, don't tease us.

Joel Cheesman (34:58.318)

Yeah, any insights in the next year?

Lieven (35:00.078)

Ah, could be, but Jovo constantly tells me I have to make it bigger so then we need a bigger location. I don't know.

Joel Cheesman (35:07.246)

Since when do you, since when do you or any, anybody listens to me? Jesus, Jesus.

Chad (35:07.359)

Yeah, last thing you need to do is listen to an American. All I got to say is I'm just happy you didn't punch us both in the face when we went out and we wouldn't stop saying, I ain't leaving.

Lieven (35:11.246)

I'm sorry.

Lieven (35:19.534)

Yeah, but I was after the

Joel Cheesman (35:20.142)

while drinking Red Bull and Jaegerbombs compliments of Bill Borman. Well, let's hope it's not the last sound bite that we hear from Kebu on this show. Everybody enjoyed it as usual. We out.

Lieven (35:26.67)

Yeah, and 15 Belgian beers.

Chad (35:40.639)

We out.

Lieven (35:40.942)

We out.


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