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Exposed: Indeed Masterplan + Cornerstone & SkyHive'd as a Kite

This week, the boys cover a wide range of topics, including favorite new TV shows, shoutouts, events, and industry news, including a possible meltdown at DailyPay and a day of reckoning for Joonko. They dig into the recent acquisition of Teamable by Humanly and the acquisition of SkyHive Technologies by Cornerstone OnDemand. Plus, the uncover Indeed's strategic plans for market expansion shared on a corporate video. Then, WeWork better beware, 'cause Chuck E. Cheese is coming for a piece of its pizza pie as a remote workspace of choice.


Joel Cheesman (00:25.015)


Joel Cheesman (00:31.351)

Two guys who as far back as they can remember always wanted to be podcasters. Hey kids, it's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel two times cheeseman.

Chad (00:44.066)

And this is Chad, Gogglebox Sowash.

Joel Cheesman (00:47.479)

On this episode Indeed wants your TAM, it's consolidation baby, and watch out we work here comes Chucky we'll be right back let's do this

Chad (01:04.002)

(singing kinda) I'm just mad about saffron, saffron's mad about me....

Joel Cheesman (01:04.919)

Who's Arnold and who's Danny DeVito in this picture? Twinsies.

Chad (01:10.498)

Twins baby, twins. And it's amazing that just about every single fucking, you know, not just Scottish, but European football, big sponsor is a betting company. I mean, they've got a problem. They have a problem. And, and,

Joel Cheesman (01:20.567)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:24.311)


Chad (01:32.93)

I've got to say that now I have a problem. I don't know whether to thank the UK or curse them after getting addicted. Julie and I both getting addicted to this show called Goggles Box. Have you heard about this show?

Joel Cheesman (01:42.615)


Joel Cheesman (01:46.615)

It's not Google box or bird box. It's goggle box. No, this is I've seen, I've seen memes and stuff, but I have no idea what it is.

Chad (01:50.082)

It's goggle box.

Chad (01:55.874)

Yeah, it's it has 23 seasons. I mean, there's two seasons per year, but 23 fucking seasons. Literally, people are watching dating shows, cooking shows, movies, and it's literally a way for the pretty much the British to promote their own programming. And they're just watching celebrities watch shows, watching regular people watch shows. It's funny as fuck. It's it's genius.

Joel Cheesman (02:07.415)


Joel Cheesman (02:17.847)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (02:25.058)

and it's addictive, so I'm not sure if I'm going to lodge a complaint or not.

Joel Cheesman (02:29.623)

So it's a show with English people watching English shows, commenting in English about the English shows.

Chad (02:32.13)

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (02:40.407)

So it's a little like the, so it's like the, the old sci -fi show where they'd watch old sci -fi film and it was like a robot and a dude and they would, they would comment or maybe like Beavis and butthead commenting on the videos that they were watching. Is that, that's exactly what it is.

Chad (02:47.65)

Yeah, movie theater 3000 or some shit like that. Yeah.

Chad (02:55.028)

That's exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is. And it is fucking hilarious. It's again, it's. This is this is and it's not it's not. That's the problem. It was so it was like, my God, I've got to stop watching GoggledoX and now it's on Netflix. So.

Joel Cheesman (03:01.655)

And this is high level entertainment for you and the wife.

Joel Cheesman (03:11.895)

The question is, much like our jerseys, were they made in Scotland?

Chad (03:17.474)


I don't think they were. I don't think they were. But Adam Gordon, Stephen O'Donnell, Matt that British guy, Alder, and everyone who was at the true events, they weren't all Scottish. Although we really appreciate, yeah, well, give me a minute. I'm gonna get there, because we gotta talk about the jerseys. The jerseys, yeah. Anyway, the venues were amazing, the speakers were amazing, the crowds were amazing, and the sponsors, Daxter.

Joel Cheesman (03:28.151)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (03:33.367)

Don't forget Steven McGrath. Don't forget our favorite Scott. Come on now. Okay, my bad. You're gonna lead into it, my bad.

Chad (03:50.274)

Ashby Solutions Driven who actually gave us these amazing fucking drams. Look at those. It actually has my... It has initials on it. Yeah, I've got that. Then we had Willow, Gigged .ai and Poetry. Well, obviously we couldn't pull it off without...

Joel Cheesman (03:56.375)

with our initials, with initials.

Joel Cheesman (04:09.751)

Did you say Ashby? I think Ashby you said, did you?

Chad (04:11.522)

Any of those guys? Yep, Ashby, I did. Much love goes to Scotland and much love goes to our friend, Steven McGrath, who hooked us up with these amazing jerseys, not just us, but the girls got, they got the, I think the home jerseys, which are the orange striped ones. And I think Jeremy got one too, didn't he?

Joel Cheesman (04:16.631)

Much love. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (04:32.503)

yeah, Jeremy got one, the striped, all, all very cool, all very sexy, all very, legit too. Like it's very, it'd be very easy for our friends, the Canadians, the Scots, et cetera, who give us jerseys to give us some like cheap ass Walmart, graphic sort of Jersey. No, no, we're talking the stitch, the legit, like the real nitty gritty jerseys. And, I couldn't be.

Chad (04:53.026)

No. No.

Chad (05:00.546)

Yeah, embroidered.

Joel Cheesman (05:01.943)

more appreciative of that.

Chad (05:04.546)

Love it. Love it. Love it. So thank you, Scotland. no, it won't. No, it won't. So thanks to everybody. We had a blast and we cannot wait to return.

Joel Cheesman (05:05.431)

And unlike the scotch that I brought home, will last for a long time.

Joel Cheesman (05:17.399)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. You got some shout out? So then Google box or goggle box or Brit box, whatever it's called.

Chad (05:24.258)

Gockelbox. So yeah, my I've got a crash and burn shout out that's going to go to June Co. This from an article on C tech Israeli startup Joonko filed for Chapter 11 last week. Didn't see that coming. Did you? Joonko 's operations effectively came to an end last summer after.

Joel Cheesman (05:30.583)


Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (05:40.407)


Chad (05:45.73)

Illit Raz, the former CEO of Joonko, left the company amid allegations from the board that she, quote, engaged in egregious, unethical, and fraudulent conduct, end quote. Crunchbase lists 38 .5 million in funding Joonko filed for Chapter 11 and their plans to distribute the remaining, listen kids, from 38 .5 million to

Joel Cheesman (06:00.823)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (06:14.722)

remaining 4 .25 million to investors, right? I want to know how much of that went to the old CEO's pockets? I mean, what happened there? There's got to be some filing through the bank accounts. Fucking crazy. And it has to happen with a diversity, equity, and inclusion platform. I mean, how fucked up is that?

Joel Cheesman (06:33.143)


Joel Cheesman (06:41.431)

Yeah, this won't go up. This won't be a Hulu documentary, like Uber or we work or, Theranos, but for our industry, this is about as like scandalous, fraudulent jail time worthy story that you're going to get. maybe it's fortunate for them that they're not in the U S they can kind of hide out, over in, in Israel, but yeah, this is like bad and, I don't think she did jail time, but,

Chad (06:48.482)


Chad (06:57.986)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (07:08.802)


Joel Cheesman (07:10.583)

The investors typically there's a level of embarrassment where they just want this all to go away and move on to the next, next deal. But yeah, this is for our space is pretty juicy. it's pretty, it's pretty nice. I mean, if, if we're like halfway to Thanksgiving, we've got a few jive turkeys, and shout outs this week that, are worthy of making our year in lists. So bookmark Juneco and the CEO as your jive turkey, of 2024, cause it's a no brainer.

Chad (07:25.41)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (07:36.002)

She was on your jive turkey list last year. So I don't know that you can, yeah, I don't know. You might be able to reuse.

Joel Cheesman (07:40.919)

was she? All right.

I don't think we can do two timer on that on that. All right. I got a shout out to major league baseball. I know you're over in Europe and you've, you sort of missed some of the, the baseball news. I know you're a big fan. I know a huge baseball fan check. So, so, so Americans don't know there was a segregated league. There was the league that you think of when you think of baseball with overweight white guys running around in oversized pants.

Chad (07:55.106)

yeah. yeah. just crazy.

Joel Cheesman (08:12.727)

but there was the Negro league at the time, which would obviously had, black players that were. Shocking really, really good. And until now, the major league, baseball association has separated the records from the Negro lead league from the, the, the, the regular league. So long time coming. I know, but it is, as you say, slow progress, records by Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, have fallen, because of the likes of.

Josh Gibson, who at the time was known as the black Babe Ruth, satchel page, which actually did play a short period in the major leagues and by many accounts, the best pitcher, in baseball history. So a little bit of, of overdue props, for those players and the Negro league and those records coming over into major league baseball as a whole, no more segregation in the record books.

Chad (08:46.626)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (09:07.874)

Yeah, I would have thought white guys running around in fat white guys running around in their living room would be more about you than baseball. But I mean, it could be them too. It could be.

Joel Cheesman (09:18.423)

That was me running to Chipotle after being in Scotland where no Chipotles exists for nine or 10 days.

Chad (09:26.53)

my God. Okay. So my next shout out goes to Wheel of Fortune. Yeah, no shit. First time on the show, kids. If you're not watching us on YouTube, you're totally going to miss this. Okay. But you got to see it. You got to see it. Here we go, kids.

Joel Cheesman (09:36.983)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (09:41.623)

And I haven't seen this, by the way.

Joel Cheesman (09:59.831)


Chad (10:01.218)


Joel Cheesman (10:05.879)

The woman in the middle kills me.

Chad (10:24.194)

in the butt. Okay, so if you're not watching on YouTube...

Joel Cheesman (10:27.127)

What was funny is the first word was four letters, and write is not. I don't know how he's spelling that, but anyway, yeah.

Chad (10:30.718)

yeah, yeah, yeah. You know where his mind was, right? But if you're not watching on YouTube kids, you totally missed the expression on Tavares' face after that wonderfully wrong answer. So watch us on YouTube and subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. That is just, that's good TV. That's good TV.

Joel Cheesman (10:50.871)

doubt. No doubt. All right. My last shout out goes to Stacy Griner. Who the fuck is Stacy Griner, you may ask. Well, Daily Pay, a company that we have celebrated on this show as a trend that needs to have its time in the sun. Well, they're going through some iSims Brian Provost style CEO shuffle over there. Stacy is the new

Chad (10:58.05)

who is Stacy Gruner?

Chad (11:11.49)


Chad (11:17.57)

Come on.

Joel Cheesman (11:19.703)

Daily Pay interim CEO on the same day that they announced that now former CEO Kevin Koop exited to become CEO of a company called Definitive Healthcare after just two years at Daily Pay. So I don't know what's up with these CEOs that take these big, big jobs at companies that are unicorns.

and then push the eject button, after a couple of years, but, it's, it's not a healthy trend, for the workers and the employees, which, which I had to go check out. I know you're not a fan of glass door, but it is still the side of record. If you want to know what people think about CEO's at the company and my man had a 53 % approval rating. So there might be some employees celebrating, Mr. Coop's exit because he was not very favorable, with many, many of the.

Chad (11:52.93)

Where's the love?

Joel Cheesman (12:15.991)

employees, but Stacy Griner. Yeah, you carry that interim CEO much like our friend Rebecca Carr at smart recruiters. I say it's time to just put the CEO label on these ladies. Let's get some fresh ideas and strategies in our space. Stacy Griner, hopefully soon to be CEO, but for now interim CEO of daily pay. Shout out to Stacy Griner. Good luck with all that.

Chad (12:24.514)


Chad (12:42.242)

That's right. Get rid of that interim kids. One thing that both Stacey and Rebecca can do, there's no interim here with Chad and Cheese. They can actually go register for free stuff. No interim, free stuff, just free stuff. T -shirts from our friends at Aeron App, new, beautiful, Guns N' Roses like t -shirts. Beer from Aspen Tech Labs, sweet, loving.

carefully crafted beer that's gonna arrive on your on your front doorstep. Whiskey. man, we just had a whole week of whiskey and it was amazing. I still have the drams to prove it. By Tex Colonel. Tex Colonel knows how much you love whiskey. That's why they're gonna send you two bottles. That's why we love Harard and we love the team over there. And if it's your birthday, it's a rum from Plum. Go to ChadCheese .com.

Joel Cheesman (13:21.143)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (13:38.818)

slash free and register.

Joel Cheesman (13:46.487)

That's right, Chad. Another year around the sun celebrated by some of our loyal listeners. A shout out goes to Shelly Billinghurst of Canada.

Chad (13:56.034)

Yes. Love her. Love her.

Joel Cheesman (13:58.903)

That's right. James Mealy, Jeff, the job board doctor, Dicky Chasen's calm. Kenahan. I'm totally mispronounced that, but I shouldn't after being in Scotland for a while. Jeanette leads Tom Hunley, Jackie Clayton, James Anderchuck, Sean Johnson, Caitlin fail, Travis, wine Ling, Adrian Villa, Katrina Collier, who shares your birthday as well. And last but not least, Chad, your boys.

Chad (14:03.169)

love it.

Chad (14:07.394)

Excuse me? Excuse me?

Chad (14:24.322)

My twin.

Joel Cheesman (14:27.767)

Chad and Joel celebrated another trip around the sun. Happy birthday, everybody. Little known fact, same year, just a day apart, 27th and 28th of May, Chad and Cheese. It was meant to be, it was written in the stars that we would have a podcast, Chad.

Chad (14:34.562)

Good times.

Just kidding.

Just a day apart. Yeah, and we don't have Katrina on this show. She would actually wrap this whole thing up, except we would never get a word in Edgewise, by the way. Let's talk about events. We have RecFest, RecFest, RecFest coming, kids. NebWorth is coming July 11th. If you have not been to NebWorth, RecFest at NebWorth, my God, we're...

Get out of the corner. Get out of the closet. Bring your team. Bring yourself. Bring your team. This is a this is a all hands type of scenario. There are 5500 people there last year. Don't know how many people this year, but it's going to be a blast. Joel and I are going to be on stage all day. You're going to love it. Hop on the train from London wherever you're at or down from Scotland and come see us in that worth the Nebworth. We have Nashville. Is coming September 12th and 13th.

I gotta say, the first year of Nashville for me, Wreckfest in Nashville was amazing. And not just because there were so many VIP parades happening, but the content that were on the stage, I mean, we were emceeing stage all day. That was a blast and that was great content.

Joel Cheesman (15:59.223)

I agree. I agree. And by the way, Cole Cheeseman will be making the trip with me. See him for a for a t -shirt. That's sort of his job. Let's check on Cole real quick. What's he up to?

Chad (16:04.77)


Chad (16:10.562)

That's his job.

Chad (16:14.498)


Joel Cheesman (16:15.447)

geez. He's, he's agitated. summer break started today. So he's, over finals and getting over that, little bit of a personal, note. I'm, I'm going to Singapore, in June for two weeks. I'll be here next week, but then after that you get to have some co -hosts and some fun without me. But clearly after, doing an interview with Matt Alder, when I called him Adam, clearly my brain needs a little bit of, Asian Pacific.

Chad (16:18.626)

Again. Again. He's gotta be happy. He's gotta be happy.

Chad (16:33.922)

Pretty stoked.

Joel Cheesman (16:45.591)

sunshine and beaches and some foe and some, some, some good stuff. So I will be gone for two weeks. we're going to do a super shred when I get back. So Chad, you'll be a sort of high landing job case and what they're up to while I'm gone. But yeah, I'm, I'm piecing out for a couple of weeks. Everybody. I'm, I'm pretty excited about it. It's been a while since I've totally unplugged from the show.

Chad (16:45.698)

Separation. Separation.

Chad (16:53.314)


Chad (17:11.426)

Yeah, I'm not sure if it was your brain or the scotch that actually, you know, and yeah, I'm not sure if it was that, but it doesn't matter. Enjoy your time.

Joel Cheesman (17:15.671)


Joel Cheesman (17:21.591)

Europe has a lot of countries in it. And by the way, Chad, it's the end of the month or the beginning of the month, depending on when you listen to this, which means the jobs report is coming out. If you're not tuning into our monthly show with link up CEO, Toby Dayton, make sure you head out to youtube .com slash at Chad cheese. Subscribe. it's a thoughtful, Q and a with us and what's going on the jobs report. It's, it's not something that you'll get on CNBC or Bloomberg. It's a totally different perspective.

Chad (17:24.962)


Joel Cheesman (17:51.095)

And it's free to watch. So there you go, kids. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome.

Chad (17:51.746)

Better data. Yeah, better data, baby.

Chad (17:59.074)


Joel Cheesman (18:02.679)

All right, Chad, Seattle startup, Humanly, former firing squad participant. they're a conversational AI platform for high volume hiring in case you missed it. They've acquired San Francisco's Teamable terms of the deal were not disclosed, but Teamable CEO will join Humanly as VP of product. Humanly customers use the platform for screening, scheduling, automating, communication, and running reference checks as well. Teamable had previously raised $12 million.

while humanly has raised a little under $24 million. Chad, is this a match made in heaven, a shotgun wedding or something in between? Your thoughts.

Chad (18:42.274)

I gotta say, I love Pram. He came on Firing Squad back in late 2020. I gave him a golf clap only because they didn't have funding. Then subsequently, they got a seed round in late 2021 and then additional.

12 million of series a in 2023. So they started fueling the jets, which is, which is awesome. Now they're expanding screening and scheduling capabilities, going up funnel, adding source and attract and further down funnel, adding tracking. This is exactly what they need to be doing. If you take a look at companies like, like the talk pushes and the paradox and whatnot.

Those guys are doing the exact same thing right there. They're not expanding going, you know going horizontally They're going up and down funnel and this is incredibly important for them not to mention, you know now they have these assets Their valuation goes up dramatically, right? So a little inside baseball teamable was already acquired once

by Top Funnel back in 2021. Top Funnel, the acquiring company, then rebranded to Teamable. Kind of find that odd. Teamable, not a name or not a word. It's a created word, right? Top Funnel, two words that you can spell that. So anyway, digging into Teamable, the world's...

Joel Cheesman (20:01.143)


Chad (20:12.29)

most complete AI hiring platform. I had to stop myself from laughing too hard. The world's most complete AI hiring platform founded in 2017. They only raised 10 million in funding. It's five in 2017 and another five in 2018. That's at least what I saw in Crunchbase. LinkedIn, on LinkedIn, Justin Palmer, Teamable CEO left...

six months ago after leading the company for eight years. So I started asking myself, how many times do you think we actually talked about Teamable over the last eight years? The world's most complete AI hiring platform, how many times? Once, once in April of 2017. What?

when they received funding, I mean, once. So this is obviously, it feels like a distressed asset. And good on -prem and the Humanly team for picking up a clearance rack asset to be able to actually, again, go up and down funnel for the Humanly stack. So good for those guys. I can't believe we haven't seen more of this happening in our space this year.

Joel Cheesman (21:17.495)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chad (21:35.618)

I think we're going to see more, but I can't believe we haven't seen much of that this far.

Joel Cheesman (21:40.375)


Joel Cheesman (21:45.495)

So our friend Prim, CEO at Humanly said quote in the press release, we are making the dream of posting a job and having a qualified candidate appear on your calendar without the manual effort in between a reality. I agree on paper. This makes a ton of sense. You've built a conversational AI for lots of folks to come through the funnel while you need a top of the funnel to get more and more people through your conversational AI.

Chad (22:05.378)


Joel Cheesman (22:14.903)

product. So on, on par, this, this makes total sense. And that's always been a challenge with the chatbots. It's like, yeah, we're not going to get people to the site or your jobs. Like we'll, we'll be there when they're ready. it makes a lot of sense to like, we'll help you get traffic into your conversational solution. I'm with you totally on, this is a TJ Maxx clearance sale, clearance rack, consolidation play. if you look at the,

Chad (22:38.05)


Good for them.

Joel Cheesman (22:42.935)

the head count at teamable, they had a 60 % decline in head count over the past two years. things are not going well at this company. I don't know how many people will move from San Francisco or from the teamable team over to humanly. humanly is a pretty, pretty small team. So to take on, those folks would be challenged. So we'll, we'll see what happens there. obviously there's some people that are quality there that.

maybe they'll move up to Seattle or bring into humanly, but you know, this, these models of sort of, I don't know, let's call them hub spot for recruiting, plays are, are challenged. I mean, if you look at hire easy, we know them really well. They, they pivoted out of hire tool, a sourcing, solution. We talked about seek out and layoffs there. They haven't pivoted, but, but that's a challenge business as well. Hire easy has had a 29 %

Chad (23:21.602)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (23:39.351)

head count decrease in the last two years, which is roughly half of teamables, but it's still not exactly super hyper growth company. I expect higher easy to be consolidated, acquired to your point of why haven't we talked about more of these? I think higher easy has to be on the sales. the conversation with some and many now why these two got together, I don't know. Maybe, the investors brought them together. Seattle and San Francisco don't normally get together for stuff like this. So.

Somebody knew somebody they were looking to sell making calls. I'm sure this wasn't the only one humanly terms were not disclosed. I'm sure it was a hell of a deal. If not just we'll take up the assets and repay any debts or pay some of your investors for their time and energy. But yeah, I think, I think it makes a lot of it again. It makes a ton of sense. Yeah. We'll give you jobs. We'll give you, you know, all the infrastructure, whatever we have the technology. but that's about it. So for me, this is really.

Chad (24:25.922)

We'll give you all jobs.

Chad (24:33.826)


Joel Cheesman (24:38.007)

much to do about nothing. Teamable has been a non -player. Humanly, I think, can make their way up the chain. I mean, they're at risk of getting, I guess, Coca -Cola'd by Paradox and other conversational AI players. But yeah, on paper it makes sense, but I don't think it's a huge deal.

Chad (24:57.506)

Yeah, I disagree. I think if you can get a really good pair of jeans off TJ Maxx clearance rack and they look good on your ass, I think it's awesome. So I think this might be that it depends on how they execute. But I think one of the things is you get a company like Paradox who literally is leading the charge. You do have to have the Pepsi's, the RC Colas, the Fantas, the big reds. Right. So, you know, I think there's there's plenty of room in the space.

because to be quite frank, the process efficiency of most applicant tracking systems because of the way that the talent acquisition company set them up are shit and they need process efficiency. So who knows? This could be a much cheaper option than a paradox. Who knows? But I think at least being able to add to the assets and then also going up and down funnel is incredibly smart for Humanly.

Joel Cheesman (25:53.559)

I do think it's interesting that they are adding pieces as opposed to being like a really good tool in somebody's toolbox. So they are at least making a move to say, Hey, we're going to go up funnel. We're going to be more piece of the pie than we were just a tool that you can just buy, which they were, they're a fine acquisition play as they are now. They're a little bit more expensive, maybe a little bit more valuable, or maybe they're taking a real, taking real aim at paradox and fountain and some of the others, Harry.

that are doing some of these things. So yeah, it's an interesting play. We'll see. I think they might need another series of money. Well, I guess stay tuned. Stay tuned for that one. the squirt gun and the gunfight isn't probably working all that well. All right, let's get to cornerstone on demand. They've acquired sky hive technologies. Cornerstone says the deal accelerates their re -scaling capabilities with predictive labor market intelligence and automated job architecture management.

Chad (26:24.098)


Chad (26:29.09)

They just might.

Chad (26:36.546)

Ha ha.

Chad (26:40.706)


Joel Cheesman (26:50.775)

Prior to the deal, Skyhive had raised $48 million. They were founded in 2017. Chad, your thoughts on the Cornerstone Skyhive deal.

Chad (27:04.194)

AI powered skills, intelligent, intelligence platform. How many buzzwords can you fit into a shortened description? Apparently five. We talked a bit about skills based hiring in Glasgow. And what was your feeling around the companies and if they were doing it right, if they even started at this point, did you feel like like we were even on track with skills based hiring right now?

Joel Cheesman (27:32.023)

Yeah, back to my Major League Baseball reference. We may still be in the batter's box or just entering the batter's box on this play.

Chad (27:37.474)

Yeah. Because skills based hiring is fucking hard. Why? Because tasks for a specific job, companies haven't even lined those out for the most part. And then being able to assess skills on those tasks, right? So we think of jobs as jobs. They're not. They are a series of tasks that create the job. That's what they are.

That's why I believe performance based skills assessment systems are the cheat code, right? The shortcut. So how can you prove a candidate can actually perform the tasks of a job? What tasks are they doing well and what tasks are they not doing well that they need help with, right? This is where we actually need performance based types of systems. So I believe that as you'd said.

Still, I mean, we're still in the batter's box, not even the early innings for God's sakes, the batter's box in skills based hiring discussions, because most companies don't even have a list of tasks that make up the fucking job in the first place, let alone evaluate performance on said, you know, said tasks. So.

Nothing that a little AI smoke and mirrors apparently won't help. And that's what I feel like this is. I don't feel like anybody's figured this out. And for a company to be able to say, well, you know, pretty much we've figured this out. It's, it just feels like bullshit to me. I could be a hundred percent wrong, but to be quite frank, I don't think I am.

Joel Cheesman (29:14.743)

Here's what the recipe feels like. Company jumps on a big trend upskilling raises a bunch of money, creates a website with a lot of stock video footage of like nurses and, you'll love the vet, like the military ones with the dog tags, looking at a laptop like.

creates a website, creates a ton of buzzwords, upscaling AI, like all, you know, them all, if you listen to this show, they raise a bunch of money that they get on a trend and then someone realizes that, okay, we got on this trend to be on it. And this isn't, this ain't it. Like this, this probably is not the rocket ship that's going to take us to the moon. And as a result, they continue to like, you and I do this for a living.

Chad (29:41.218)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (29:46.178)


Joel Cheesman (30:07.095)

And I spent a good deal of time watching the explainer videos, going through the site, like, what the fuck do these guys do? I came across this skills passport thing and I thought, well, maybe this is a, maybe this is a blockchain play. Like they're going to like, you know, confirm identities and profiles, but I couldn't understand. I didn't, I could not figure out what the skills passport was. It sounded cool and they'd actually trademarked it, but I couldn't figure out from the blunt.

Chad (30:36.514)

Great words.

Joel Cheesman (30:36.823)

Like the one pager of what, like what the fuck it was. So to me, this just feels like let's get on this trend. Let's raise a bunch of money. shit. This isn't it. Let's call our VC buddies at, at down, you know, at cornerstone on demand, which was a quote, which used to be a public company. It was acquired in 21 by clear Lake, capital groups. So like there's some money to like, what should we do? And so all these people know each other like, Hey, how would you like to buy us for X? You'll get the, the.

AI shed, whatever tech we build, you can take some where people will say face. Well, you know, our investors will walk away, you know, with their head high. And then this deal happens like this happens all the time. Whereas at least humanly and teamable makes sense on paper. I don't know if this one makes sense. This just feels like a bunch of dudes at the country club saying like, Hey, I got to dump this, this, this dog. I got a.

Chad (31:18.658)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (31:31.319)

I got a pile of dog shit sprinkled with cat turds like you interested and then like over a couple of cigars and maybe a happy ending at the Oriental massage parlor and bam, we got us an acquisition. That's what this feels like. It doesn't make a lot of sense other than somebody knew somebody and people put money in like, let's get it out and say face and move on to the next deal.

Chad (31:52.322)

Yeah, and Cornerstone seems to be really good at one thing, and that's baffling companies with bullshit. And this just feels like a continuation of that.

Joel Cheesman (32:01.847)

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of the whole eightfold, you know, trend. Like let's throw some AI shit, big words and yeah. And people buy thinking, well, it's the emperor has no clothes. Like I see the clothes. Yeah. Okay. I'll buy your shit. I don't know what it does, but I'll, I'll buy it and tell everyone that I'm really smart. Just like you. All right. Let's take a quick break and talk about someone else who thinks they're smarter than the average bear. That would be indeed everybody. We'll be right back.

Chad (32:09.122)

Eightfold is their masters of that shit. yeah. I have the best words.

Joel Cheesman (32:36.183)

Indeed is coming for your tam Chad in a recruit holdings online strategic overview. CEO Chris Himes, also known as our love child outlined how indeed would be growing its market share in the coming years. Some nuggets include greater global penetration while simultaneously growing its SMB and enterprise customer base and increasing its quote take rate within new segments such as temp staffing. Chad.

This was a video that probably went under a lot of people's radar, but not ours. What's your takeaway from Mr. Hyam's commentary?

Chad (33:15.618)

Yeah, this video came out well over a month ago, I think a couple of months ago, and I watched it and I thought, okay, let's see what happens at the end of this. Wait, we were traveling, crickets, crickets, I'm searching, crickets, crickets. Nobody's talking about this. And I don't get it because...

Joel Cheesman (33:30.295)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (33:39.97)

During the investors update, Chris Himes, the CEO of Indeed, talked about effectively monetizing the marketplace. What the fuck does that mean? Indeed's already the biggest player in the ad tech recruiting space, right? Okay, well, you have to expand the total addressable market. Okay, where? During the update, Chris, how have I not been fired, Himes, pointed out that the ad tech space...

In the recruiting industry, the market size is $32 billion, which is only 10 % of the greater 327 billion recruitment industry. So Indeed wants to expand their TAM by 10x by going into staffing. And yet we haven't heard shit from anybody about this. So Indeed has no need to be a technological innovator anymore.

when they are already a decade ahead of staffing agencies like Ronstadt who screwed the pooch with their monster acquisition, Adeco with their failed hire .com acquisition, and AMS with their pathetic management of the hourly product, just to name a few by the way. So the question is, indeed, how can they become a staffing company? We've got to remember, recruit holdings,

Is their parents, is their sugar daddy? They're one of the biggest recruitment companies in Asia pack, right? So Indeed makes it public. They're going full steam into staffing, but they can't eat the entire staffing $327 billion industry elephant all at once. So where do they start? Well, they already have, wait a minute kids, Indeed Flex, a temp jobs platform, which represents, wait a minute, what's the temp job?

Joel Cheesman (35:06.999)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (35:22.903)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (35:34.018)

That's $128 billion of the 327. It's the biggest fucking chunk that's out there. So Ronstadt, Adeco, and all the other staffing companies are pretty much sitting as the Monster .coms and career builders of today. They can hear the Indeed train coming. They know that they're standing on the tracks, but they're just too damn busy worrying about this quarter's EBITDA to get the fuck out of the way. The big question is,

Joel Cheesman (35:36.919)


Chad (36:03.17)

What staffing companies and RPO firms will continue spending money with Indeed after this update?

Joel Cheesman (36:14.263)

The answer is all of them, probably. This was fascinating. I'd love to know how many indeed employees have watched this. It's pretty cool that they made it publicly available for meatheads like us to go check it out. But look, on the surface, well, but they don't have to reveal this much. They don't have to, they don't have to, anyway, it's very cool that a company did this.

Chad (36:17.986)


Chad (36:32.002)

They're a public company.

Chad (36:41.986)

It was. It was.

Joel Cheesman (36:42.295)

It's sort of like, let's open the kimono and let everyone know what our real intentions are because you and I talk about indeed. and on, in, and from our world and our perspective, it looks like a company in disarray. It looks like what the fuck are we doing? Let's throw shit at the wall. We're, we're desperate. We don't know what we're doing. And then you watch this thing and you go, that's, that's some evil ass shit. Okay. Now.

Chad (36:47.17)

I see what you did there. I see what you did there.

Chad (37:09.154)

Look over here, look over here, look over here. wait a minute. That's what we're doing.

Joel Cheesman (37:10.807)

Now, yeah, it feels a little bit like let's do some stupid shit. So Chad and cheese talk about that. And then the real like evil plan will be hatched, you know, behind, behind the, the, you know, the, the doors. so.

Joel Cheesman (37:30.679)

If yes, if, if I'm a staffing company, this definitely concerns me. can they pull it off? That's questionable. I don't know. I mean, Google can't launch glasses. Apple got out of the car business. I mean, there's reason to believe that even though they say they're going to do this, that they can actually do it, that they can actually, follow through and get it done. But look, it was fascinating to talk about. Look.

What we do is such a small piece of what we want to do. And we think of indeed, is this sort of monolithic number one job board in the world, but in a world of $327 billion opportunity, I mean, it's a small piece of that pie. Like you, you mentioned, if they just get into one of these and the ones that he talked about were temp staffing, retained search, direct hire, and recruitment automation. I mean, job advertising is a 10th.

of what that marketplace is. He talks about how the 50 K and under jobs are still the primary sort of resource for companies to find people. The executive side of that is less than half of what they're getting from a monetary standpoint. So if they start turning the dials on the executive stuff, whether that's through search or I don't know exactly what they're going to do, but if they just get that up to the fifth, what they're getting on for companies at 50 ,000 and below.

Chad (38:31.154)


Joel Cheesman (38:57.015)

they're going to greatly impact their bottom line. in a big way, he talks a lot about the indeed higher and indeed flex, how they're going to be a primary part of, of the future. it was just a fascinating sort of flying the wall moment where this is what indeed really doing. And it was a fascinating to watch. I think they've got their work cut out for them. I don't think this is a core competency for them.

Chad (39:05.778)


Chad (39:21.698)


Joel Cheesman (39:23.319)

I think just saying we're getting into executive search or we're getting into, temp staffing is easier said than done. and they're more than likely to fuck it up than they are to get it right, but it's going to be fun to watch. And it's at least good to know how, how this is a backdrop like, yeah, they just talked about sourcing. No, that ain't it. It's this other shit that they're looking to, to grow the market share. the take rate, he says a lot, in that they want to take more cash from what they're helping companies do.

Chad (39:49.314)


Joel Cheesman (39:53.047)


Chad (39:53.79)

yeah, going from 1 % to, perspective leave, 5 % to 20 % to possibly, I mean, because if you think about it, they can undercut the staffing companies because they have the process efficiency and they have access to the actual, the candidates, right? The thing that just blows my mind is that how all of these inept,

Joel Cheesman (39:57.975)


Joel Cheesman (40:08.471)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (40:18.082)

Staffing companies and RPOs they're coming for you, too Okay, they're coming for you too this To think that you are safe because you're inside a company is just I mean you're fooling yourself kids to be able to undercut all the staffing companies because you don't you're not going to have the overhead is just crazy the thing is These staffing companies have proven they cannot buy a tech company

Joel Cheesman (40:21.895)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (40:47.49)

and turn it out like.

Recruit Holdings did with Indeed. Recruit Holdings, they've been able to really make this bad boy sing and they have wanted penetration into the US market and other markets too, but definitely the US market. This is their fucking train, man. This is their train and it's gonna run over all those other fucking staffing companies. They're not gonna get out of the way. They're gonna be worried about next quarter instead of five years down the road and Japan has your fucking number, kids.

Joel Cheesman (40:51.383)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (41:02.775)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (41:12.031)


Joel Cheesman (41:18.167)

Yeah, it's too easy to say, Hey, we noticed you posted a job for an executive position. Do you want to learn more about this product and what it could mean? Like we'll find the people for you. And, and as, as companies reduce their recruiting head count, something like this is really appealing. you know, yeah, a small business. I need some, I need some cooks or some servers. see you post a job like we'll help you.

place those jobs like, okay, that's cool. Indeed does that. What do I, you know, what do I have to pay 20 % or whatever it is, they can undercut that. So it kind of makes really good sense. And it also makes sense of why they're doing more to go after LinkedIn with their multiple profiles and like, so they want more, more of that data, more of that profile data. So then they can, they can place those folks more easily within the system. So.

It's some evil genius shit if they can pull it off. I question if they can. It'll be fun to watch though.

Chad (42:17.218)

Now, staffing companies, staffing companies, you better stop spending money with Indeed. I think it's too late, to be quite frank, for some of you, but not all of you. So you better stop fucking spending money with Indeed because you're literally slitting your own throat.

Joel Cheesman (42:30.711)

Yeah, yeah. Wise up.

Joel Cheesman (42:37.623)

All right, moving on from indeed. Let's take a quick break guys. Listen to the ads on the show. There is no show without the ads and we love our sponsors so much. But you should write them all blank checks or just give them your credit card number. For God sakes, we'll be right back with some Chuck E. Cheese news. Now better that you never thought you'd hear that on the chat and cheese pie.

Chad (43:00.45)


Joel Cheesman (43:05.271)

All right, Chad, young professionals in Toronto. Sorry, I mispronounced it. It's Toronto for the Canadians out there are using a local Chuck E. Cheese. Did you know that Chuck E.'s middle name is entertainment? I bet you didn't know that Chuck Charles entertainment cheese is his, is his full name. Anyway, they're using the Chuck E. Cheese as a remote workspace, finding the environment quote, surprisingly productive while at the same time being nostalgic.

Chad (43:27.202)

So bad.

Joel Cheesman (43:35.095)

The idea initiated by Arvay Bookbinder has gained popularity with more than 100 people showing interest in joining future quote, fever dream coworking events at Chuck E. Cheese. Chad, your thoughts on Chuck E. Cheese going after a little WeWork pie. Or is that pizza pie?

Chad (43:57.25)

I think it's Adam Newman. I think it's Adam Newman in the Chuck E. Cheese suit is what it is. This is his way to try to outflank WeWork. Fucking Adam Newman. my God, yeah. I mean, we just talked about, you know, Ilja Raz, you know, from Juco. And now, you know, this feels very Adam Newman -ish where he was trying to put in a bid.

Joel Cheesman (44:09.303)

It'd be more successful in his other companies.

Joel Cheesman (44:25.399)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (44:25.634)

to buy WeWork, the company that's a, you know, he WeWork Jesus. Yeah, this to me is one of the stupidest things ever. I can't imagine any professional going into a Chuck E. Cheese in working, period. And I guess it doesn't have to be, you know, quote unquote professionals, like, you know, upscale professionals. It can be just anybody, just your regular old Joe. Maybe they have kids.

Joel Cheesman (44:45.911)


Chad (44:52.354)

that like you are out of school, you want to go take them to play, but you got to do work. Maybe this is a good opportunity, but yeah, I this isn't going anywhere.

Joel Cheesman (44:53.399)

Huh? Yep.

Joel Cheesman (45:00.823)

So you're a hater and I went scouring the internet for comic relief around Chuck E. Cheese. So this is comedian Nate Bargat's on Chuck E. Cheese. Have a quick listen.

Chad (46:06.05)

Sounds like Indiana.

Joel Cheesman (46:29.623)

So I'm going to, I'm going to stand up for Chuck E. Cheese for a second. I I've recently been to a Chuck E. Cheese in the last six months. The robotic band is gone. It's all digital. The games are pretty cool. The pizza is pretty good. I think they got some real ovens in there and they're like, there's no buffet anymore. Let me, there's a buffet with like salads and stuff, but like the pizza is pretty good. The games are pretty fun.

No one's going to Chuck E cheese on Tuesday from like nine to three, roughly, you know, like roughly they're going at night. Maybe most on the weekends. I think it's a perfect opportunity to put up some desks, put up some cubes or put up some like workspaces, get some coffee in there. You know, when I take a break, I want to play some ski ball. I want to play some Terminator, take a break, maybe go get some pizza. I think it could work. I think it could work and leave it to the Canadians.

to make something, something like this work. So don't give up on Chuck E. Cheese, Chad. It could be an idea whose time is now. And I'm going to end this on a dad joke. You know, I would, you know, I would. Why didn't anyone laugh at pizza's jokes?

Chad (47:35.166)

God, yeah. Here we go.

Chad (47:41.73)

You got me.

Joel Cheesman (47:42.199)

They were too cheesy. We out.

Chad (47:47.906)

We out. That was bad.


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