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Fraud, French AI, and Boring Acquisitions: Joonko, Mistral, and Gem

In this episode, Chad and guest host Maureen (Mo) Clough dive into the murky waters of AI scandals and industry dynamics, starting with Joonko’s founder facing SEC charges for defrauding investors, highlighting the persistent problem of AI washing. We question ZipRecruiter’s claim of being a “great place to work” amid listener skepticism about their treatment of employees. Mistral AI’s significant funding round signals continued enthusiasm for AI technologies, while McKinsey’s research reveals accelerating adoption and notable benefits of generative AI. We also tackle ageism in tech, discuss AI's transformative potential in hiring and content creation, explore the controversy over age restrictions in restaurants, and scrutinize the issue of excessive CEO compensation, proposing that executive pay be tied to the wages of their lowest-paid workers. Join us as we unpack these hot topics with a blend of insight and snark.

Mo's Contacts:


Chad (00:23.428)

AHHHHHH yeah. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Chad Euro 2024. Sowash and on today's show we're diving into AI washing drama with the SEC and Joonko. ZipRecruiter is a great place to work, NOT, Mistral AI scored a big round and gem bought, who? Let's do this.

Chad (00:54.66)

Well, welcome back kids. Yes, Joel's on a beach in Vietnam. Everybody knows that, but no, I'm not going to be alone this week because, you know, I wasn't hugged enough when I was a kid. So I need somebody on the show with us. So I have a special guest. And give me a second. I've got to actually pull this up so that you can see the the lovely website. That's right. We have Maureen Wiley Clough, host of It Gets Late Early.

the podcast. Welcome to the show Mo, how's it going?

mo (01:27.438)

It is going! Thank you so much for having me. I'll try to do my best to stand in for the inimitable Joel. So yeah, we'll work on it.

Chad (01:32.804)


Chad (01:36.324)

Yeah, it won't be as hard as you think. I promise you. I promise you. Not to mention, not to mention, we both have drinks. You have a MoMosa and I have what you called and I was very, I'm very surprised that you know, because not many people know the green Portuguese wine is, you're very cultured Mo, you're very cultured.

mo (01:38.382)

Don't tell him that. He's irreplaceable. We do. Mombosa, for sure. We're rebranding.

mo (01:58.446)

I do. I'm very cultured. I like alcohol. Does that make me cultured? Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah.

Chad (02:04.228)

cultured and yeah, just just smart. So anyway, do us do us a quick a quick and dirty Twitter bio who is mo all those people who don't know you should know you tell them why.

mo (02:20.078)

So I have been working in the tech industry for a while and at the ripe old age of 37 was referred to as a dino, at which point I had an obvious existential crisis. And I looked around and I was like, wait a minute, this is actually pretty accurate. Like I'm one of the oldest people at this company. And it was a smaller startup, but then I like did a retrospective analysis and I was like, wait, throughout my corporate career, even at like the likes of Bloomberg and SAP Concur,

Chad (02:46.5)

Mm -hmm.

mo (02:46.638)

I was among the oldest people there and I was like, dude, wait, people are living to like literally a hundred now and no one's saving enough for retirement. So like, how does this work out? And I realized I had this really intense pressure to feel like I had to make VP or something by age 40 to like solidify my chance to have a seat at the table, especially as a woman, I felt like that too. So I started thinking like, why the hell is no one talking about this? This seems to be a very obvious problem with no very quick solution. And so,

Chad (03:02.132)



Chad (03:12.26)

Mm -hmm.

mo (03:15.118)

I started the podcast, It Gets Laid Early, to have these conversations with experts, with thought leaders, one of my favorite terms, with my peers. And it turns out, everybody's thinking about this too, and just no one's talking about it. So I thought, why not do it? So here I am.

Chad (03:29.412)

Yeah, yeah, the maths weren't math thing and us growing. We were growing older for longer. And you're right. I mean, even if females get to a VP rank, it's not that they actually get the pay or the the responsibility or what have you. So, you know, there's still a lot of work to happen there, let alone age, but also age and gender and in many cases also, you know, race.

mo (03:32.398)

They weren't mathin'.

mo (03:37.006)


mo (03:44.494)

No. Yeah. It's rough. Yep.


all those things and there is an under -representation of older people, especially in the tech industry, but I think ageism extends across all different industries because humans are amazing. But it's something that we have just left off the table from DEIB conversations when we know it to be a factor. And so I'm on a mission to ensure.

Chad (04:01.892)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (04:07.172)

We suck.

mo (04:15.726)

that we bring it into the conversation and I firmly believe just like all other forms of diversity, it's going to add to the bottom line, which is frankly the only fucking reason anyone would ever give a shit about it in this capitalistic hellscape of a society. So there you go. So let's go research that, let's go figure it out and yeah, get people to give a shit. That's my goal.

Chad (04:33.412)

All right, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna let you keep rolling and we're just gonna go ahead, we're gonna go straight into time for shout outs and you have the first shout out. So who would you like to shout out?

mo (04:46.478)

Lucky me. So I would like to shout out, first of all, it's kind of a movement I wanna shout out, and it is the concept that your midlife is not the end, that it is in fact the beginning, which is encapsulated in some ways that I find to be really uplifting and fantastic, and in others that I find to be a little, I don't know, maybe concerning. And so I found this.

Chad (04:57.54)

Okay, sure.

Chad (05:03.844)


mo (05:11.534)

This person is a rather large, for lack of a better term, influencer. She is also a doctor. She's a psychologist. But yeah, why don't you go ahead and roll this? Yeah, Gucci.

Chad (05:18.532)

Yeah. Where's Gucci? OK.

Chad (06:00.644)

Okay, I gotta stop this. I gotta say, this is, this is, okay, so you gotta, you gotta give me a minute here, okay? This is a white cisgender straight dude. I don't understand the females. I just don't. Ask my wife, you know, she explains all the time. I don't understand first and foremost what that energy is, right? I don't.

mo (06:02.606)

I mean, it's not SNL and.

Take it in.

mo (06:16.27)

I'm sorry.

We are confusing.

mo (06:26.926)

Yeah. Yeah, you know, first and foremost, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that you called out that you are a white cisgender male, because you are in fact that. And so in general, I would be like, yo, you don't get to opine on this, Chad, like shut the fuck up. But in this case, I am right there with you where I see that.

Chad (06:28.036)

Can you help me with that? And also, can you help me with the cultish, the cultish piece to this? Because it felt very cultish.

mo (06:50.254)

and cult alarm bells go off at me. I mean, first of all, when I saw it, I literally was like, is this satire? Is this like SNL? Because what you didn't see in that clip, and I urge everybody to go watch it because you have to see it to believe it, it next becomes like scarf dancing on the beach and women like caressing one another's faces. And it is, it is, trust me, it is not. Please go look at it and tell me what you think afterwards. But I was like, what in the fresh hell is this? And,

Chad (07:08.548)

That seems kind of sexy to some extent. I mean...

I'm not.

mo (07:19.726)

Like I don't wanna be a hater, but also like what is going on with this like event that she's throwing? I got curious, cause I was like, you know, I wanna be magnetic. I wanna find my purpose. And I went to the website and again, this is a legitimate doctor. She's a psychologist, you know, she's amassed like a massive following and following is a great term for it because again, super cult vibes there. But you go to the website and she's got this event coming up in I think November of this year and I think it's in Arizona.

Chad (07:31.236)


Chad (07:42.756)


Chad (07:47.747)


mo (07:48.942)

And it's like at least $1 ,000 or some like angel number or something to attend. Like I don't know if you know angel numbers, Chad. I fortunately do not, but I was clued in that these dollar amounts, like it's like 999 or 444 or 1111 or whatever. And I'm like, what the fuck is this?

Chad (07:58.244)

No. No.

Chad (08:06.884)

Was that kind of like the Walmart 97 at the end of everything or 96?

mo (08:10.574)

Yeah, it's like those online courses that are all like a weird number. Anyway, I was like, what is this? And I can't help but feel like everybody wants to be stepping into their power. Everyone wants to be feeling more confident, like despite the fact that we do deal with a very ageist society. And so I get like, and some of the things that are said, they're not wrong. They're actually 100 % true. But it seems to me a little bit,

It's got like cult MLM, like predatory vibes for me because I mean, I don't know if you're in a place where you are connecting to that and scarf dancing and facial grabbing and stuff and you're maybe not in your best moment is my thought. Thank you. That is, you know what? That is actually a perfect encapsulation of what that feels like. It's got MLM vibes. It's got like.

Chad (08:54.564)

It's like if Amway in yoga had a baby, that's that's

That is, that is.

mo (09:05.902)

preying on people who are at a low point, who need inspiration. It's got all that personal development shit. Yeah, the mysticism and the spirituality and there's so much, there was actually, there was a document. Yeah, anyway, the point is midlife is good and we're going into a great era and I think that it's really awesome to see that kind of momentum and there's been more representation of women in film and in media.

Chad (09:11.3)

And it's got that energy piece, right? And you, you know, okay.

Chad (09:19.204)

I gotta stop this before I faint. This is just too much for me.

Chad (09:35.236)


mo (09:35.758)

And I think women are collectively saying like, we are going to refuse to fade back into the recesses. We wanna be front and center. We wanna step in and have the confidence in our second halves of our lives. But like this vibe, it just, it feels off to me. Yeah, main character energy. I love that she used that like Gen Z specific phrase. I was dying. I was like, I don't think that's what they mean. But anyway, it was very, yeah, I found that to be an interesting.

Chad (09:53.284)


mo (10:05.838)

an interesting output from all of that collective good momentum.

Chad (10:08.292)

It was, it was, it was a thing. It was a thing. And we're going to, we're going to pivot back to the industry stuff right now, kids, because I can't take any more of this. shout out to our listeners, right? We love our listeners. I received a direct message this week from a listener that shared this post from ziprecruiter. here we go. We did it again. Ziprecruiter is thrilled to announce that we have been certified as a great place to work for another year. Okay.

mo (10:12.046)

Mm -hmm.

mo (10:16.334)


Chad (10:37.956)

Here's a listener response, quote, how the fuck did Zip win an award for being a great employer when they fire so many staff so regularly? What metrics are used when judging this award? And all I got to say is we have these smartest listeners because our listeners can spot bullshit from a mile away. So, you know, if you're watching on YouTube,

mo (10:38.542)


mo (10:59.79)


Chad (11:05.476)

I'm actually going to flash something up here, but it says, and this is no shit kids, it says that 92% of employees at ZipRecruiter say it's a great place to work. 92%. I guess my biggest question is right now, how many of these people are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome?

With the kids at home, Stockholm syndrome is basically when you fall in love with your character. But, you know, moving on, big shout out to our listeners, being able to call out bullshit on companies like Zippercutter, who literally are kicking people out the door and people, again, Stockholm syndrome, Stockholm syndrome.

mo (11:32.59)


mo (11:47.566)

Also, isn't that shit like pay to play? Like best places to work you like nominate yourself and like pay a submission. I mean, that shit's not real. Yeah.

Chad (11:53.156)

Most of them are. Yeah, most of them are. I mean, it's kind of like a glass door and getting a higher rating when literally you're gaming your people. It's almost like the same kind of thing. So anyway, again, our listeners are smelling it. It's bullshit. Nobody cares. But what people do care about and you should care about it, Mo, is free stuff. That's right. We have t -shirts from Air and App, beer from Aspen Tech Labs, whiskey from our friends at TexKrnel.

mo (12:03.182)



mo (12:12.462)

Mm, I do like that.

Chad (12:20.996)

All this gets delivered to your front door, by the way. Birthday, a little rum from Plum, which everybody likes a little rum from Plum.

mo (12:28.014)


Chad (12:33.188)

The only way you can get registered for this kids, Then moving quickly, we have a couple of back to back events. Number one is RecFest at Nebworth Park, July 11th. Yes, that's just north of London kids. And then we have RecFest September 12th and 13th in Nashville. These, have you been to one of these more? You went, did you go last year?

mo (13:02.542)

I did not, but man, do I ever want to sign up for this year. Let me tell ya.

Chad (13:06.252)

I'll make sure Jamie knows. I'll make sure Jamie knows. So if you're listening and you don't know kids, RecFest is all all -hands staff type of meeting. This is where you bring your staff to learn, bond, connect with peers, learn practical applications of process, tech, AI, standardized procedures. Experts in the space are going to be there. Chad and Cheese will be there. In London and also in Nashville. So go to RecFest.

Fest RECFEST .com ASAP and get those tickets. What have you heard about RECFEST? I'm interested because you haven't been yet, but what have you heard?

mo (13:48.75)

I've heard that it is rad and it's a lot of fun and they do things differently and it's like a big outdoor festival vibe which is very different from your typical conference and so that speaks to me because you know hey we're all getting together for the first time since COVID basically these days and like why not do it outside in a fun festival vibe like I'd like Coachella with my business thank you that sounds good I'm in yeah

Chad (13:55.396)

It is. It is.

Chad (14:10.948)

Amen. And you know, where it's held in that worth is amazing. Big field. But Nashville, again, this is year two in the U .S. It's more than likely going to double in size at about twelve hundred people last year, looking at probably going over twenty five hundred. It was amazing and pretty pretty excited. good God, it is it is. And you know what else is great?

mo (14:33.518)

Nashville's a great town too, as is obviously London. But yeah.

mo (14:41.55)


Chad (14:42.532)

Topics! That's what's great. All right. The Securities and Exchange Commission, SEC for short kids, charged the founder and former chief executive of now bankrupt AI recruitment startup, Joonko with defrauding investors out of at least $21 million. The SEC alleged Ilit Raz, former CEO of Joonko provided potential investors with, listen to this, false client lists, fake testimonials, false company earnings, false bank statements, forged contracts, falsified the number of job seekers using the platform, and provided fake claims of how Joonko's AI worked, all in the attempt to close more funding. And it worked. As Joonko closed...

mo (15:19.47)

my God.

Chad (15:39.748)

a series B funding in September of 2022 for $25 million. Raz also faces parallel criminal charges of securities fraud and wire fraud from federal prosecutors in Manhattan. Each of the charges carry a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison, according to the Justice Department. This sounds like a backstory for a character in Orange is the New Black. Does this have potential?

mo (15:54.478)

Jesus fucking Christ.

mo (16:08.462)

Hell yeah, it does. It 100 % does. I mean, this is the first I'm hearing of all of this, but I'm sadly not very surprised. It sounds like a tale as old as time. It sounds like what just happens in the VC funding world. Like these people are total charlatan just assholes, and they get the money. Don't fund women though, fund these guys. Great, awesome, like perfect. It's just like, how does this continue? How does this, it blows my mind. It boggles my mind, but yeah, it's.

Chad (16:08.932)

for a Netflix documentary maybe.

Chad (16:26.212)


mo (16:38.382)

Sadly, a tale as old as time at this point. Probably another documentary.

Chad (16:40.388)

Well, Joonko also a diverse platform, a diversity platform, number one. Number two, the CEO, a female. So at the end, not good. I mean, just not good all the way around. Yes.

mo (16:45.518)

Mmm, cute. So they're using good. miss that. No, not a good look. Not a good look. No, that's like horrifying. I'm very disappointed in that. There likely will be some sort of documentary, especially because the CEO is a female, because we love to tear female CEOs down. That's like our favorite thing to do. So. yeah. Elizabeth Holmes.

Chad (17:08.228)

yeah. yeah. I mean, Theranos, right? We've got all these dudes who broke the entire fucking financial system, but what? How many of them? How many went in cuffs, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

mo (17:16.142)

Yeah, but let's focus on her.

Exactly. So true. So true. Such a thing. But yeah, we should definitely prepare ourselves to see that documentary. It's gonna happen. It's gonna be maybe a dramatization. Yeah. I mean, there's We Crashed, Super Pumped, you know.

Chad (17:27.588)

But we don't see. Yeah, yeah, I mean, we just don't see. Yes, we yeah, we crashed. Also dumb money, which is about GameStop, the GameStop, GameStop stock. So good, so good. So good anyway. Yes, this is in our space kid kids Joonko. We've talked about him for years now.

mo (17:39.694)

Haven't seen that. GameStop, stock. Yeah. Yeah, I bet that's... I'm gonna check that out.

Chad (17:56.932)

And last year around around this time last year, we actually reported on the prospect of Joonko going bankrupt. It's all done now. There's a lot happening here. We're going to keep you abreast of it. It's not good news. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you got to hear what's going on so that you don't do stupid shit like this moving on. Okay. So moving from bullshit AI to I sure the hell hope this isn't bullshit AI as Paris.

mo (18:11.338)

Wow. Yeah, that's.

mo (18:18.126)

Yeah, don't lie to everyone.

Chad (18:26.5)

based Mistral AI announces 600 million euros in Series B funding after only a year in operation, which brings total funding to 1 .1 billion and evaluation of 6 billion. This new funding round will accelerate Mistral's roadmap and it continues to bring frontier AI into everyone's hands. The company is developing various generative AI models.

co founded by Meta and Google's DeepMind X workers. The firm will support foundational models and aim to compete with GoFigure, OpenAI, Anthropic and others. Some of Minstrel's investors including Lightspeed Ventures partners, Andreessen Horowitz, NVIDIA, love those guys, Samsung Ventures and Salesforce Ventures, OpenAI, Gemini, Cloud,

mo (19:16.75)

Mm. Yeah.

Chad (19:25.54)

And now, Mistral, not Minstral, but Mistral. Have you tried them all? Have you tried any of them? Tell me about your your your your AI journey thus far.

mo (19:36.718)

I have not tried them all. I have tried mostly OpenAI. It's pretty impressive. I know it's one of those things that's on my list. I really need to dive in much more than I have. That's very clear. But to me, I see this news and it's like, well, yeah, anything with AI in it, it gets funded to the hilt. And if you don't have AI in your pitch deck, what are you even doing? It has to be there.

Chad (19:40.804)


Chad (19:59.108)

Yeah. Yeah.

mo (20:00.75)

But it is interesting to see that they're going after this. I mean, this category is pretty crowded at this point. And I wonder what the differentiation between their tool and the others will be and how much of a commodity it'll be. And ultimately who's going to win out, right? And if there's going to be like an aggregator of LLM models or how this is all going to play out. But yeah, I love me a Paris based startup though. Like super into the fact they call it Le Chat. Like that's freaking rad.

Chad (20:07.172)


mo (20:29.006)

le chat like sign like I want to try it it's everything better everything better comes from France so like sign me up.

Chad (20:29.476)


Chad (20:35.556)

Yeah, well, it was funny because I always I always ask questions whenever I jump in and I asked fairly I think that are hard questions, not too incredibly hard. I mean, I don't know enough about physics to ask those questions. So I ask, what's the the main problems with the U .S. political system? And generally, you'll get back some bullshit that's just kind of fluffy and whatnot. But I did this with Mistral and it outlined like 10 things and they were on point.

mo (21:02.734)

Really? Did you try the same prompt elsewhere or just on Mistral? Okay.

Chad (21:03.876)

and they were on point.

Yes, yes. The rest of them was a little bit more flowery, right? This one was not. And I don't know if it's because it's out of Paris and they, one of the things, one of the things that Parisians can do is they can rebel. And this might be the rebel large language model.

mo (21:11.95)

Huh, yeah.

mo (21:15.886)

Could be the euro thing, man.

mo (21:21.902)


mo (21:26.446)

They're also really good at shitting on Americans. Not that we don't deserve it. Not that we don't deserve it, but I'm just saying. Although I did look on LinkedIn and the job openings that I saw were all based in San Francisco. So that was interesting. So Silicon Valley.

Chad (21:29.156)


It's a thing.

Chad (21:40.004)

Yeah, yeah, go figure, go figure. So staying in the AI sector, new McKinsey research shows quote, as generative AI adoption accelerate survey respondents report measurably measurable benefits, and increased mitigation of risk of inaccuracy, a small group of high performers lead the way end quote, well, no shit, McKinsey. It's like saying in 1910, automobile adoption accelerated in

and survey respondents report getting to work faster and not smelling like horse shit when you're arriving in the morning. I mean, sometimes this research drives me crazy. I was reading through it. There were some good nuggets, but I mean, it was way too long to play this game. Yes, yes, I actually have to throw it into chat GPT and say, you know, get through the horse shit. But let's talk about.

mo (22:21.814)

Yeah. Our attention span only goes so far.

mo (22:31.342)

Give me the nuggets. Yeah.

Chad (22:33.732)

practical applications. So you said that you've played with them a little bit. I've played with them a lot. How are you using AI? How, where, and how much time does it save you?

mo (22:44.878)

So I will tell you that I am not using AI the way I should. Like I absolutely am not the person who should be the poster child for this. Why? Well, let's see, laziness slash ADHD, perhaps being busy. I know, I know, I know. It's like hypocritical in some ways. It's just like an order of operations issue for me. Like I know I need to be using it. I've used it just to kind of test, you know, what can I get out of this? Like for example, I wanted to...

Chad (22:50.884)

Why? Why?

Well, if you were lazy, you'd be using AI because it does a lot of the heavy lifting.

Chad (23:06.244)

mo (23:13.166)

find a certain episode of Silicon Valley, HBS Silicon Valley, my all time favorite show. I mean, it's just the fucking best. Also, they like predicted so much of what happened in our world, it's a little bit scary, but it's terrifying. I'm like, God damn it, you guys were onto something. But I wanted to find a specific, or I think I asked it to send me the episodes that had specific reference to age and like made fun of older people. And it categorized all the episodes like boom, this episode 10. And I'm like, thank you, I didn't have to watch the entire season and like get my notebook out. You know, so.

Chad (23:22.5)

Pretty awesome, by the way.

Chad (23:42.82)

Yeah. Yeah.

mo (23:43.086)

Stuff like that can be helpful. And it's also, I asked it, I just was curious, like write me a script for a show all about age bias on this. And it did it. Now, was it great? No, but it is a starting point. So I know that it could help someone like me with organizational tasks. And it's really, it's just a matter of me not actually sitting down and taking the time to do it. And it's my own fault. Like I'm an idiot. I should be using this stuff.

Chad (23:57.54)

Mm -hmm.

mo (24:05.582)

And I know that I'm setting myself back by not. So, I mean, even you, Chad, you've been like, yo, Mo, why aren't you using AI for your podcast? And I'm like, you're right, you're right, Chad, God damn it, you're right. Always right, Chad.

Chad (24:13.02)

But, but, thank you, I'm sorry, carry on, I stopped you at the right point. Yeah, I stopped you at the right point. Seriously, so I use ChatGPT for titles and Dolly for cover art ideas. Riverside creates transcripts. I mean, this is the platform that we're using right now to actually record on, creates transcripts, then it uses the transcripts to create overviews, takeaways, and short video clips.

mo (24:17.134)

Yeah, you're like, wait, one more time, one more time? but.

mo (24:30.83)

Yeah, I use it too.

Chad (24:40.388)

I use Opus clips for more video clips, Gemini daily for Google Assistant and chat GPT for executive summary. So I have to say that platforms. Well, but the thing is, like, let's say, for instance, for for Riverside, the platforms who are implementing AI into their system like Riverside are what we should be using. And here's what I mean. When we record this podcast.

mo (24:49.294)

Yeah, you're doing it well. You're doing it right.

Chad (25:06.02)

and create an enormous amount of content through the text in the transcript, then audio, then video, the platform can then consume all of that content and then split it out into suggested video clips, podcast titles, audio clips, still captures, and then takeaways. So all the suggested content, yeah, all the suggested content comes together and it literally consumes it and then it spits it out.

mo (25:10.894)


mo (25:22.67)

100%. Yes, it does do that.

Chad (25:34.02)

It's not all great, but it is better than most stuff. yeah.

mo (25:35.822)

I was gonna say, I've seen some. I've done the like magic clips things and I'm like, that did not encapsulate any sort of point and that was super random. Why did you pick that? It's still cool that it exists and it's gonna get better and better, which is fantastic. Yeah, that's right, you've been saying that.

Chad (25:42.756)

Which is what? Yes. Yes. Which is why I use Opus. I use Opus because of that, and I'm hoping I'm hoping that, let's say, for instance, Riverside buys an Opus and then that happens and they just get better, better tech inside of it. But I mean, the way that I can see something like this working is, let's say, for instance, like a sales copilot and advisor.

mo (25:57.134)



Chad (26:09.892)

AI listens to calls, transcribes, creates a summary of the call, provides advice, and then AI follow -ups with a prospect or client to provide additional information and or schedule follow -ups, right? This to me is fucking magic. And we're going to talk about in the next segment how we're going to be doing this hopefully in recruiting. But until then, before we get out of there, just give me your kind of like,

mo (26:11.758)

Yep. That's amazing.

mo (26:18.318)


mo (26:23.31)


mo (26:27.566)

And it is.

Chad (26:39.716)

Overall of you were talking about who's going to win Do you really think there's going to be an AI winner or do you just think there's going to be? a small group who literally commands the space

mo (26:52.686)

Well, I'm not very good at predicting the future, but what I can tell you is, I mean, you think about like the search functionality even just like Google killed that, right? So there were all these different people vying for search functionality and then Google became the just like main star. So I could see that happening potentially. I think.

Chad (26:55.588)


Chad (27:07.908)

Good point, yeah.

mo (27:11.79)

You know, there has been such incredible adoption, as you pointed out, like the whole Henry Ford, like car adoption thing too, right? And the McKinsey report, I get it, but like there has been just this massive growth in the AI industry and people are testing it out. And some people are testing it out more than others, Chad versus me. However, I do use it, I realize now because I have an Otter that transcribes all of my meetings and whatnot. And it helps me as someone who has ADHD and found out at age 36, it's really helpful. Cause then I can like.

really zone in to the conversation and know that I'm not going to miss anything. Like it's going to tell me what to do next, et cetera. But I think that it could very plausibly become kind of one winner out of all of this. And, you know, it's just like an arms race hurtling through space towards something that's, you know, not necessarily known the outcome that could be potentially possible, which is a little scary when we're talking about like for -profit companies who don't actually give a shit about ethics or baked in bias or anything, because they all just want to make money.

Chad (28:04.388)

Yes. No.

mo (28:08.526)

So it's scary. I mean, like when the platforms start saying, we won't even charge you because we want your fucking data so much, that sends off alarm balls for me. Like I'm like, holy shit. But I do try to remain as optimistic as possible as someone who considers herself a bit of a realist slash verging on pessimism. So long story short, maybe.

Chad (28:08.579)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (28:26.66)

Great point about Google. Great. Great point about Google. I mean, you are 100 % right. They own the fucking search market. It's all there is to it. No, yeah, no. And I think that's what scares the shit out of Google is they were leapfrogged by open AI and that in that 97, 95 % ownership of search in the market. That's that in itself could. I mean, next thing you know.

mo (28:34.414)

I mean, Bing? No. Yeah, it's so true. Bye!

Mm -hmm. Totally.

Chad (28:53.508)

could go away. I mean, that's a very great point. That's a great point. That's why we have you on the show, Mo, because you're smart.

mo (28:54.894)


mo (28:59.47)

Yeah, what can I say? I know a couple things. Experience matters. My old age.

Chad (29:04.388)

Okay, so let's talk about now some tech in recruiting. Right after the break, we're gonna pour ourselves a little bit more green wine, a little bit more mimosa, and we'll be right back.

Chad (29:23.588)

All right, Mo, get ready. So we're going to start. yeah, you're good. You're, you're at that. That's good. That's good show right there. Look at that. Good poor, good poor, good poor. so we're, we're going to start the conversation about AI with a smart, but rather boring acquisition. you cool with that, Mo? Okay. Okay. So the following, the, no, the following is.

mo (29:25.29)

So it's running. Got it.

mo (29:33.966)

good! Good, I'm trying.

mo (29:43.486)

I'm in. Do I have a choice?

Chad (29:52.1)

from Steve Bartle, co -founder and CEO over at Gem, quote, today we welcome interview planner to Gem. We acquired interview planners, intelligent scheduling automation to help teams fast track hiring and deliver exceptional candidate experiences. With this new addition, we bring powerful scheduling automation to the rest of Gem's powered platform, end quote. Big startup, not so big acquisition. What do you think Mo?

mo (30:22.542)

I mean, my initial thought was like, do we really need this? Like, don't we have scheduling tools? Like, I won't say that I've used GEM, so let's throw that out. Reality, but it's the ever present like build versus buy, right? Do you build it? Do you buy it? Do you partner? It's just that always that question. I will say when I went through the rest of their beautifully worded and exceptionally architected article where they showed all these benefits and features, I thought,

Chad (30:40.42)

Mm -hmm. yeah.

mo (30:51.982)

Man, yeah, that actually sounds pretty good because let me tell you, using an ATS is a shitty situation. Like it's a horrible experience. Interviewing at tech companies is abysmal and these panel interviews, it says allegedly that it's gonna make everything easy to panel interview schedule, which obviously has a lot of complexity baked into it. And my initial thought was like, cool that it's gonna be easier, but does that mean I'm gonna have to do more interviews because...

I'm out on that. If it's so simple that you just hit a button and then they're gonna be like, we're gonna interview you with like 17 ,000 people at this company and make you take the process 10 times longer, like I'm out. But it looked, the functionality looked good, I gotta say. It looked pretty nice. And I was like, you know, hey, tech stack, pulling it together and diminishing the number of different technical applications that you have to work in. Yeah, sure, I like that. That's nice, it's easier.

Chad (31:22.404)


mo (31:43.726)

But as a partnerships person, as my background in business development, I'm like, I love the whole plug into different APIs and bring the best of breed and whatnot, but perhaps that's what they think they've done by acquiring them. So.

Chad (31:44.228)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (31:56.836)

Yeah, well, I mean, so interview scheduling, not a big problem these days. It's the interview themselves, right? It's being able to conduct those, whether you have a third party doing them, you have, you know, video or audio doing them or whatever you might have doing. But interview scheduling seems to be the place everyone starts with process automation. Why? Because scheduling is time consuming. It's boring and it's a true pain in the ass. So it's one of the most logical places to start.

mo (32:03.79)

Mm, yeah.

mo (32:22.03)

It is, it's awful.

Chad (32:26.244)

Plus it's not just making it easier for the candidate. It's easier process for the recruiter, hiring manager and everybody involved. So I would have to imagine this very narrow point solution. Let's call it a micro point solution. Was a bargain basement aqua hire.

type of acquisition. In September of 2021, after receiving $100 million in funding, CEO Steve Bartle once again said, quote, it's time to accelerate and quote, and it's 2022. So Jim has added an ATS AI process automation, they're partnering with point solutions like happy dance to deliver dynamic career side experiences. And we're seeing very basic use of AI in gem thus far. So

We just talked about practical application for the use of AI, mainly around use cases on Riverside. So tell me your thought on how do we use AI, especially in systems like GEM, knowing the kind of data that they have available, how do we use those systems to really advance the use of AI?

mo (33:36.782)

Man, the use of AI around these systems, I would, I mean, hopefully there's a way to pull feedback from these interview loops, I would think, like from different managers to get sort of, I mean, I would say, here's one thing I actually applaud Amazon for is they have a hiring process that while arduous and miserable as an applicant actually seeks to reduce the bias internal candidates would face, or excuse me, external candidates would face with all the different people.

Chad (34:03.108)

Mm -hmm.

mo (34:06.062)

looking at them. So perhaps there'd be a way to like pull in the information that was input by different managers and different people who are interviewing candidates. And I don't know, assimilate that data and pull some nuggets out or something. But I mean, I'm trying to think of how AI could also influence the, that sort of a tech.

Chad (34:07.108)

Mm -hmm.

mo (34:25.838)

But that's the thing that comes to mind for me is I'm thinking about the biases that we all have when we look at different candidates. And maybe there's also a way to standardize some of the interview process because the other thing I've seen in companies is, holy shit, like we don't teach people how to interview others. And it's just like, it's like really ridiculous. The difference between the experiences of interviewing with person A versus person B at a company.

Chad (34:31.94)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (34:43.684)


Chad (34:48.292)


mo (34:53.742)

and how much of it just goes back to like gut sense or who you know or who someone just like happened to like. It's affinity biased stuff. So I think that there is an opportunity for AI to come help democratize the hiring process a bit. Potentially, it also has the chance to do really shitty things. Like for example, there was a company called iTutor Group out of China that was summarily rejecting, yeah, the EEOC nailed them because they were rejecting candidates.

Chad (35:06.148)


Chad (35:15.908)


Chad (35:19.332)


mo (35:20.942)

who applied to the company who were 55 if they were female and 60 if they were men, because again, men are allowed to age more than women naturally in our shitty society. I know, it's so lame. It's terrible, I know, right? Look, it's crazy. So it was wild. So there are ways that ATS systems can be programmed for malevolence as well, but I think that there is also opportunity if you just get it in the right hands for it to level the playing field, make things better.

Chad (35:22.212)


Chad (35:29.092)

even though we die earlier, our life expectancy is...

mo (35:48.014)

It's all about whether it gets in the hands of bad actors or not, right? And whether we have the appropriate sort of regulatory arms to govern that, so.

Chad (35:51.3)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (35:55.78)

Yeah, I think first and foremost, you're you hit the nail on the head with regard to standardization. And then also, like you have high volume versus middle management versus like executive, right? That's all entirely different. And interviewing is the hard part. So if you're in high volume and you have literally four knockout questions, if you do have a heartbeat, you know, can you get to work? I mean, those types of things, right? And then right at the end of it, if you hit all those and you pass it,

mo (36:06.222)


Chad (36:26.02)

You go directly to an interview. That's all there is to it, right? You go directly to a fucking interview. That's the cheat code, right, for that level. You can do that at middle management level as well. There's no question. So there's better ways of doing it, but I'm expecting core talent platforms, the applicant tracking systems, to start recording more information.

mo (36:29.518)

Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

mo (36:37.294)

Totally, totally, yeah.

Chad (36:46.372)

much like I was talking about the sales example, then consuming that information, then spitting out messages, rescheduling and fielding basic Q &A from job seekers, hiring managers and recruiters. So anyone with access, anybody with access, anybody should be able to go into the system, ask for a situation report on the specific requisition or candidate. A VP should be able to go ask the system to pull together a report.

mo (36:58.35)

It could be amazing. It could honestly be amazing.

Chad (37:13.124)

On how many interviews are rescheduled by managers and then ranks them best or worst, right? So, I mean, there's so many different ways to apply this. I'm really excited to continue to see boring acquisitions fit a need, but we've got to get to the next step in the talent industry around advancing.

mo (37:19.086)


mo (37:22.51)

You're totally right.

Chad (37:34.788)

Process methodology in AI Joel is always talking about Facebook's year of efficiency. We're in fucking HR. Okay, we're not following Facebook. Give me a goddamn break. But we need to I mean, we need to not in the in the fact that we need to bloat and then throw, you know, 20 ,000 people away, we need to be more efficient.

mo (37:51.118)


Yeah, and that could absolutely help get you there for sure. I think there's some really great applications you just threw out there that could actually democratize the playing field a bit, which I love. I'm all into that.

Chad (38:03.748)

It's what we're trying to do and big surprise coming from the AP by the way see CEO pay it's out of whack Did you know that this median? the median pay package for CEOs for S &P 500 companies rose six to 16 .3 million dollars up twelve point six percent according to data analyzed from the AP meanwhile

mo (38:12.75)

You know, it's weird. I've got the sense.

Chad (38:29.892)

wages and benefits netted from private sector workers rose 4 .1 % through 2023. That's right, CEOs get a 12 .6 bump and the people actually doing the work 4 .1 % bump. So.

mo (38:44.014)

Ding ding ding.

Chad (38:45.54)

For some perspective, back in 2021, EPI published a report which showed that since 1978, that's right, we have to extract this out so we can understand the actual trends, kids. Since 1978, CEO pay has risen over 1300%. And today, that's closer to 1500%, while normal American non -exec workers...

only saw a 13 .5 % raise from 1978 till fucking today. But hold on kids, the government is here to help. A new proposed bill. I know I have to laugh when I say that too. A government bill, proposed bill in January of this year would mean that under the Tax Excessive CEO Pay Act, tax penalties would begin at 0 .5 % points, percentage points,

mo (39:21.39)

Like, sorry.

Chad (39:40.132)

For companies that pay their top executives between 50 and 100 times more than their typical workers. Companies that pay top executives over 500 times more than typical workers, they're going to get hit with a 5 % percentage points. And we just, I just talked about two companies last week that do that. Walmart and fucking American Airlines. Anyway, all private and publicly held US corporations with average annual sales for the three preceding years of at least 100 million would be subject to this tax. The bill would raise an estimated $150 billion over 10 years that could be used to support working families and reduce inequality. Is this the right way to go at this problem, Mo?

mo (40:35.822)

I mean, we have to do something. Clearly companies aren't doing any of this work on themselves. They're just continuing to, you know, what blew my mind about that article too was that there is an active mention of boards being concerned that if they don't keep on inflating the pay of their executives that they will walk. And I'm like, well, why the fuck they, why don't they do that for employees? We're the ones making the money. We're the ones doing the work. It was like that Spotify CEO who's like, we let, we let 1500 people go and like, my God, it like.

Chad (40:37.924)

I agree.

mo (41:04.238)

It had an impact on our operations. Like, hello. It's just, I think we've reached a level of corporate greed in this country that is just like unconscionable. I mean, you have Boeing out there just stuffing the pockets of the shareholders at the risk of the flying public and actually in some cases, like maybe killing whistleblowers. I don't know, not to be a conspiracy theorist, but like what the fuck. And then you have like, I mean, honestly, it looks so bad. I was like, guys, can you make it like more plausibly deniable that you didn't do this? Like.

Chad (41:25.252)


Chad (41:31.908)

This looks like Putin's Russia to some extent.

mo (41:33.902)

I exactly that is literally what I said. I'm like, what happened? So that happened. I mean, gosh, there was the surge pricing incident for hamburgers at Wendy's. There was the McDonald's or no, it wasn't McDonald's. It was the Kellogg CEO who said, hey, guys, why don't you just eat cereal for breakfast if you're a struggling American family? It's just has your family eaten cereal recently? Kellogg CEO. It's just disgusting and despicable.

Chad (41:45.284)

Yeah, yeah.

Chad (41:50.243)


Yeah. Let him eat cereal.

mo (42:01.07)

So we got to do something. They're not going to do this themselves. They're in the self -dealing. They're interested in fattening their pockets. I am grossed out by it. I think Americans have had enough of it. And so I think that the fact that there's regulation that's being proposed is indicative of that. And so it's reached like a bit of a fever pitch. People just, they're done. In tech, so many of us have been laid off and we were the ones who made the profits for these companies happen. And it used to be we're laying people off because of the economic environment.

then we're doing well, getting record profits. we're still laying you off. It's like, there's no loyalty. There's no career trajectory. There's no longevity. And I think people are just pissed. So yeah, I'm for it. I would love to know exactly what they think they're going to do with those funds, you know, in general, with the funds they collect. I'd love to see the plan for that. And I hope it's a good one. But yeah, hell yeah, I'm into it. I feel like it's a good call.

Chad (42:32.292)


Chad (42:52.58)

Yeah, I gotta say, I gotta say one thing. I wanna see something happen, but.

Chad (43:01.668)

You done messed up A-Aron. So the problem with Democrats and I actually grew up probably about 40 years of my life. Don't hold this against me as a Republican. Yes, and I am totally not that today. But the problem with Democrats is that most of them play small ball.

mo (43:11.502)

Really? Interesting.

Chad (43:22.244)

150 billion in 10 years isn't even a tax for those companies. When you're talking about Walmart, Walmart by themselves make $158 billion a year in profit. That's fucking bull. That's bullshit money. Yes. Here's my proposal. I'm not just going to shit on this. I'm going to have a proposal. I've been thinking about this. I've been listening to podcasts. I've been playing the whole economics thing game. I could be 100 % wrong. First and foremost.

mo (43:22.35)


mo (43:27.982)

That's a really good point.

mo (43:34.99)

So it's chump change. It's not enough to make a difference. Yeah, it's just performative.

I love it! Yay!

Chad (43:50.02)

You tie CEO compensation directly to the base number. For example, a CEO cannot receive compensation over 30 times that of their lowest paid worker. In that scenario, the CEO would need to raise the lower paid workers' wages to receive an incentive themselves. If the CEO's bonus then exceeds that of the base number, in this case 30 times,

they and the company would be fined at a 6 % of overall global revenue. The fine has to be stringent enough to ensure compliance. This would give companies a reason to rein in the out of control CEO comp, raise workers' wages, and have a stiff enough fine that would make any board member wake up in night sweats.

mo (44:41.07)

That's what Jeff Bezos wants his employees to do, wake up with their sheets drenched in sweat, being nervous. So sure, let's do that. Let's get the board sweaty too.

Chad (44:46.532)

Yeah, yeah, the guy who can afford a fucking super yacht, right? It's a yacht with another yacht.

mo (44:52.694)

Well, it's like, yeah, it's like five on top of one another. But that's the thing to me, the egos are so big. Why don't we, I don't understand how someone like that wouldn't want to just go and some people would probably hate me for this conversation, but like, why don't you just go save the world? Then you're the man, right? Like if you can just go like eradicate poverty or like help people from facing homelessness or stop people from starving, like you are the man. Like I will sing your praises all day. Everyone on planet earth with.

Chad (45:11.972)


mo (45:22.03)

So like, stop building some stupid dick -shaped spaceship and do that. Like, help. You know? Jesus. Come on.

Chad (45:22.436)


Chad (45:26.532)


Well, I can't do any better than that dick shaped spaceship, penis rocket. That's what we call it. Penis rocket.

mo (45:34.862)

Yeah, yeah.

Chad (45:39.14)

All right. Well, we are back and we're going to finish up with, guess what? We're going to finish up with some some mo, right? Because there's there's no such thing as less. There's only mo. Here we go. Yeah, yeah, yes. So you so so you had you had a tick tock that I really enjoyed.

mo (45:53.326)

I'm here for all the puns today, man. They're just killing it.

mo (46:00.622)


Chad (46:02.148)

And we actually changed this entire topic because I saw this TikTok. I'm like, fuck this. We've got to talk about this. So we're going to. So if you're watching on YouTube, here it comes. If not, you'll hear the audio. Here we go.

Chad (46:30.18)

grown and sexy.

Chad (47:03.844)

Well, you're going to get my thoughts, whether you like them or not. OK, so first and foremost, I couldn't get into a bar until I was 21, even though I was in the military and shot at when I was 18 years old. And I still couldn't get into a bar when I was 18 or 19. OK, so I kind of have that. And that's a personal thing that I've got to deal with. But there.

mo (47:16.958)

my god. So insane. Upsetting.

mo (47:26.03)

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's messed up. Mm -hmm.

Chad (47:27.876)

There are resorts that are adults only some are couples only and then there are others that are just family friendly, right? So just as long, I believe, just as long as they aren't discriminating on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion, I'm not seeing a problem. But again, I don't know, I need to say this again. I'm a white cisgendered straight guy. So what the fuck am I missing here? Help me out.

mo (47:52.526)

I mean, yes, it is an ageist policy, obviously on its face. I also understand some people are like, well, hell yeah, I don't want any kids here. Like get them out of here. And I'm thinking more like literal children than people in their 20s. But I think that there are other ways than expressly calling out, like we don't want your kind if you're under 30 or 30 for guys, or no, excuse me, 30 for women and 35 for guys, which made me laugh. So it's like a different sliding scale based on your gender. So there is gender discrimination in there too. But I was like, there were other ways

Chad (48:16.164)


mo (48:22.48)

to just attract the demographic that you are hoping to have at your restaurant than like overtly saying, thou shalt not come, right? Like, so you can have the vibe that maybe wouldn't appeal to someone who you would stereotype as like younger than 30, right? Or 35 as a dude. So I think that there are ways of doing it. I think, you know, there's no such thing as bad press. This could easily have been a PR ploy for them to get more people in the door. The comments on my posts are really hilarious. Some of them were like, hell yeah, get those kids off planes too, or.

Chad (48:30.244)


mo (48:51.854)

And then other people are like, dude, the worst behaved people are the boomer Karens at these restaurants. Like, what are they even talking about? So there's just a lot of stereotyping going on. And this is like classic media shit because they love to pit generation against generation. We've been doing it like since the beginning of time and it's clickbait coverage. Like I know what's going on here. And I think that restaurant probably was like, we're going to get some, we're going to get some free press out of this. We're going to get some like hate. We're going to get a lot of love.

Chad (49:01.508)


mo (49:19.79)

And yeah, I find it more than anything amusing, honestly. And technically it's legal for companies to do something like this because it's within their own right. It's not an employment situation. They're not saying we won't hire people under age 30. Although, however, that would be federally legal to say because the protection only is for those over 40. So you can actually actively discriminate against younger people at the federal level in some states and different cities. That's illegal, but.

Anyway, that's kind of a side note. But yeah, I mean, would I do it? No, but like, they're technically allowed to and it is getting the most shitload of press. Some love, some hate. No such thing as bad press.

Chad (50:02.34)

which they might love. Not everybody loves the Chad and Cheese podcast, but it doesn't matter. But more of them love the Chad and Cheese podcast. Why? Because Mo's been on it. So Mo, if somebody wants to find out more about you, maybe listen to the podcast or something like that, where would you send them?

mo (50:18.158)

I would send them to either my website at itgetslateearly .com or on Apple podcasts, it's just type in, it gets late early, you will find me. I'm also on the socials, I'm Maureen W. Clough, that's C -L -O -U -G -H, on both Instagram and on TikTok. Yes, I am on TikTok. I am 41 and I am on TikTok. People up there exist on TikTok. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Chad, I wasn't gonna call you out, but yeah, you're...

Chad (50:46.916)

I'm an Xer. I'm on TikTok. I don't give a fuck. Where's the bar? Mo? We out.

mo (50:47.406)

beyond being yours and you're there too. Yeah. Yeah.

mo (50:58.158)



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