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Indeed Layoffs, ZipRecruiter Cat Turds & Eightfold Smoke and Mirrors

This week, the boys discuss various topics including Indeed's layoffs, the ban on lab-grown meat in Alabama, Jerry Seinfeld's commencement speech, and the financial struggles of ZipRecruiter. They also dig into the introduction of Eightfold Talent Tracking, and the partnership between Stack Overflow and Indeed. They express their disappointment with ZipRecruiter's performance and call for better leadership. They criticize Eightfold for expanding too quickly and losing focus, and they mock the buzzword-filled description of their new product. They also question the strategy behind Twitter's, er, X's job recommendations and express their frustration with the lack of innovation. Finally, they discuss the controversy surrounding the Portal Project between New York and Dublin and how an OnlyFans model reminds us how much we all love boobies ... or is it potatoes? Eh, just listen.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION (blame Riverside for any imperfections :)


Joel Cheesman (00:27.322)

OHHHH YAAAAAAAAAAY!


Joel Cheesman (00:33.082)

just two guys fighting for the right to party since 1987. Hey, boys and girls, you're listening to the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Loch Ness cheeseman.


Chad (00:45.842)

EuroChat is back! So was.


Joel Cheesman (00:48.57)

And on this episode, Indeed cuts, zip drops, and New York flashes. Let's do this.


Chad (00:57.966)

last part.


Joel Cheesman (01:01.996)

Eurochad is back. Tan rested and ready.


Chad (01:05.038)

Baby, I am back. Yes, yes, I did. I was doing my work in Santa Fe prior, getting ready for this, getting a little tan, getting ready. Yeah, then jumped, obviously, you know, off the tower, which is apparently something that I needed to do before, you know, I did this. So yeah, no, we got back yesterday, last night, and whew, I am happy to be here. I'm so happy.


Joel Cheesman (01:14.52)

Yeah.


Santa Fe Vegas primer was nice I'm sure.


Joel Cheesman (01:32.026)

Yeah. Yeah. Vegas was, I gotta tell you though, magic keeps calling, you know, magic. He just wants to hang out all the time. Now we're best friends. I don't know if he's, if you saw that or not, but yeah, magic, magic Johnson and I are BFFs. We're hanging out with MJ and bird, later tonight. We're, we're going to Chipotle for some barbacoa bowls later.


Chad (01:38.606)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


Chad (01:44.942)

Yeah, got a pad on the back and everything.


Chad (01:51.534)

Is he coming to Scotland? That's the question, because I mean, I think that is a great opportunity to get it and get magic to come to Scotland and, you know, do a little tour with magic. yeah.


Joel Cheesman (02:00.122)

How great are the Scots? How great, like how engaged and just like excited are the Scots? I reached out to my LinkedIn content, like you're coming here just for us. Like, yeah, dude, we're coming and the whiskey, but yeah, coming, coming for you guys. Yeah, it's going to be fun.


Chad (02:08.502)

yeah.


Chad (02:19.15)

Yeah, no, we're definitely coming for you. And if you have some whiskey, which I'm sure you do, go ahead and get it ready for.


Joel Cheesman (02:26.458)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. My liver is exercising in readiness for that, in readiness. So shout outs we got, I'm gonna go first here. Love the fans, love the fans, but one particular, Janet English, she works for Resume Library in the UK, but she's over here in the States. Had really nice things to say, I won't read the whole thing, but basically quote,


Chad (02:32.61)

Ehh


Chad (02:37.262)

shit. Okay.


Chad (02:43.086)

Hmm.


Okay. Hello, Janet. Okay.


Joel Cheesman (02:53.05)

I've worked for resume library as an account manager for seven years and man, you guys make me giggle with your comments. And this is kind of a solid, consistent comment that I get. I think you do too. we're funny. I don't know. It's kind of like a grumpy old man or something. Make people laugh. We take people, they, people go walk the dog. They go do whatever and they like, just, we let them get away. We're the Cal gone.


Chad (02:58.006)

Wow.


Chad (03:07.662)

Yeah. Yeah.


Chad (03:14.03)

Don't go too far, okay?


Joel Cheesman (03:22.596)

were the Calgon of podcasts, I guess. But anyway, shout out to Janet English.


Chad (03:25.998)

You've got to remember, yes, shout out to Janet, no question. You got to remember though, the bar is very low for HR and tech podcasts and TA podcasts, right? So, you know, if we crack a joke every now and again, we become like the most hilarious thing in the space. But again, the bar is very low.


Joel Cheesman (03:44.634)

It is low, but we're competing with other podcasts. They could go listen to smart lists or Rogan or whatever, but Hey, they're listening to us. So shout out Janet. We love you. And we'll keep trying to be funny for you.


Chad (03:50.154)

yeah, no, that's a good point. It's a very good point. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Keep listening. yeah. And by the way, you know, if you're not subscribed to YouTube, go subscribe to YouTube. Give us a review. Love us, hate us. Doesn't matter. We love to hear the feedback. I mean, whether you like what I say, what do you like what Joel says, doesn't matter. We just love that you're listening and you're getting engaged in the discussion. And we don't ask that you agree with us. Never. Because hell, we don't even do that.


Joel Cheesman (04:10.298)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (04:18.81)

We're doing it wrong if everyone agrees with us, for sure.


Chad (04:19.022)

yes, you are 100 % right. I'm going to, I'm going to do a double Bama shout out. Are you ready for this?


Joel Cheesman (04:30.362)

Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready for the Bama combo.


Chad (04:30.574)

Yeah, I am. I am. Okay. So the first Bama shout out goes to the United Auto Workers. This from NBC News quote, workers at the Mercedes Benz plant in Alabama began voting Monday on whether to join the UAW union, a significant test of whether the labor group can maintain momentum in the historically anti -union American South end quote.


VW joined the UAW in Tennessee, but Tennessee is not the deep south. Alabama is the deep south. So what do you think about this? Do you think Mercedes will end up joining in Alabama? Or do you think that the pressure is just way too much in the deep south for unions?


Joel Cheesman (05:20.058)

I like the unions. I like the unions everywhere. I like the UAW. I like fucking Apple, Apple union, allegedly boycotting or like picketing. I don't know what like unions are having a moment. Look, Mercedes has been in Alabama for a long time. They've spent a lot of money there. I just, I don't see any way that car companies, restaurants where like unions are having a moment until the robots take over.


Chad (05:24.558)

I did too.


Chad (05:32.014)

Yeah? Yeah?


Chad (05:39.15)

Yeah? Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (05:48.954)

I'm going to be team union on this one, whether it's in Alabama, Florida, New York, or Washington. Go unions.


Chad (05:56.59)

Yeah, I gotta say, Sean Fain became the UAW's president in March of 2023. It's just been over a year. It feels like he's been the president for a much longer just because of everything that he's done, because he led the union through the first simultaneous strike with GM, Ford and Stellantis, which resulted in 25 % wage increase kids and a return of cost of living adjustments for its members. So of course, Bama is going to want them some of that.


Right? I mean, it's just, it's going to happen. It's going to happen. And then we'll go ahead and roll into my, my, my second Bama shout out goes to lab grown meat. Alabama is now the second state in the nation to ban the sale of cultured meat, AKA meat grown in the lab. Alabama governor Kay Ivey signed SB 23 into law making the manufacturer sale or distribution of food products produced from.


cultured animal cells a class C misdemeanor as of October 1st, 2024. So, Cheeseman, are you ready for your... mean, Indiana still has the ability to do this. Are you ready to get your hands on a lab -grown meat burger?


Joel Cheesman (07:12.794)

You know, this, this is kind of close to home because my wife, she does a lot of work around insects as a protein. And while we're, I think we're a long way from human beings in America eating a billion, some people around the world eat bugs pretty regularly. and if we just replaced our dog, cat food, pet food, with, with insects and.


Chad (07:19.854)

Yeah? Yeah?


Chad (07:29.774)

Yeah? Yeah?


Joel Cheesman (07:36.41)

My dog eats it. Peepers is a young puppy at 12 and because he eats bugs. I mean, the food looks like dog food. He doesn't know any different. It's all protein. But that trend is stifled by the farming and the agriculture community and farmers, God love them. I have family members that are farmers. Like I love farmers, but they, in terms of protecting their nugget,


Chad (07:37.26)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (07:41.39)

Ha ha.


Chad (07:45.412)

yeah. Yeah.


Chad (07:55.118)

yeah. yeah. Lobby, baby. Lobby. Yep.


Joel Cheesman (08:05.978)

lobby Congress make these things laws where you can't grow meat in a lab or you can't like, like insects aren't subsidized meat is subsidized farming is subsidized. Like the government is behind this thing and to create laws where, we can't grow chicken in a lab. Like who cares? I mean, if you're in for animal, if you like animal welfare, there's no animals killed when you grow a chicken breast in a lab. And apparently it tastes pretty much the same. I know you're a big vegetarian.


Chad (08:12.302)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (08:18.03)

Yeah. All right.


Chad (08:29.55)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (08:34.81)

meat guy, but yeah, this is all just a power play to keep farmers and politicians in business and a stifling competition. I think overall it's a negative thing as much as I do love, love the farming community. I'm ready to eat whatever tastes like Chipotle. Yeah. If Chipotle can do this, I'm down. I'm down with it. I'm here for it.


Chad (08:48.846)

It is it is.


Chad (08:55.79)

thought it was interesting. I mean, I'm not personally a fan of the whole idea just thinking of animal cells in a lab that just doesn't get my appetite rolling. But did you know that US animal products are banned in other countries? US pork is banned in China, Russia and the EU. pre packaged ground beef, you know, the stuff with the pink slime is banned in the EU and US milk is banned in Japan.


Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the EU. I mean, it just, because I was thinking, wow, we're banning stuff here. Do other countries ban the stuff that we do? And because of all the artificial dyes, the chemicals, the preservatives, the hormones, all that shit that we use in the US, yeah, most countries are like, no, we don't want any of that shit, right? We don't want that. So it's interesting that we have this idea of,


Joel Cheesman (09:41.722)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (09:55.458)

lab -grown meats, which again, I'm not against. I just don't find it appetizing myself. If somebody else does, that's fucking awesome. But what about the actual beef and dairy that we do here, that we have in the US? It's it's banned in other countries. Yeah, yeah.


Joel Cheesman (10:10.426)

Yeah, it's, it's ironic, right? We're going to ban lab grown meat, but Hey, those pesticides and preservatives. And I mean, not even just food. I know like tide is illegal in Europe because of whatever cleaning thing is in there is killing. I mean, Americans are the cockroaches of the world. Like we eat so much shit, put so much crap in our bodies. Like,


Chad (10:17.358)

All good. All good.


Chad (10:26.286)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (10:33.338)

When the world, when the shit hits the fan, the Americans are going to be left because we're the cockroaches eating and consuming all the shit in the world. We've survived all these pesticides and poisons. Everyone else is going to die and it's going to be America. America first, baby. America first. When the shit shit hits the fan. Geez. I don't know. Geez. Shout outs going long today. I'm going to make it quick. my, my second one, Jerry Seinfeld. Everyone knows Jerry, right? Seinfeld.


Chad (10:34.382)

Dude.


Chad (10:52.046)

fucking horrible. Okay.


Chad (11:01.006)

Yes.


Joel Cheesman (11:01.57)

Arguably the best show ever. definitely the best sitcom ever for my money. anyway, yeah, it's good that you say that. So show about nothing. Well, Jerry, Jerry's kind of taken stances now. Jerry's almost 70. He's, he's, he's got an opinion. The Israeli Gaza thing. he, he's obviously more vocal about, but anyway, he did the commencement speech at Duke, recently. The media made a big deal about, there were like 12 protesters and that was like the lead story. But the lead story to me was.


Chad (11:06.126)

Show about nothing. Yes, I loved it.


Chad (11:18.19)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.


Chad (11:31.47)

Big deal.


Joel Cheesman (11:31.63)

Jerry was great. Like if you get a chance, go check out Jerry's commencement speech. It's very insightful. It's very funny. He defends comedy, not being too sensitive about, you know, the need to laugh as human beings to not take ourselves so seriously. I think it was a prescient, timely message. So shout out to Jerry Seinfeld. I really enjoyed his commencement speech at Duke University this week.


Chad (11:47.854)

Right. Mm -hmm.


Chad (11:58.478)

Very nice. What listeners really like is they really enjoy free stuff. You can get t -shirts by Aaron App. That's right, we've got the new t -shirt. And I don't know how many people that have actually have commented back to us that this is their favorite shirt design yet, right? So it's the Guns N' Roses, Chad and Cheese podcast design by Aaron App. And Aaron App even did their own custom.


Joel Cheesman (12:06.298)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (12:27.83)

logo on the back, which is awesome.


Joel Cheesman (12:27.93)

If you're on YouTube, you can see this is the actual packaging for the shirts. Look at this. We did branded.


Chad (12:34.67)

that's sexy.


I tell you, go in the extra mile that Joel Cheeseman is, or is it Stella Cheeseman? Anyway, beer by Aspen Tech Labs.


Joel Cheesman (12:46.682)

Stella's just my sweatshop in the basement. That's what Stella is at the moment.


Chad (12:52.462)

I hope you don't put her in the basement. Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. That's right, kids. We'd love us some Aspen Tech Labs and some craft beer. Whiskey by Tex Kernel. Two bottles of whiskey from our friends at Tex Kernel. And if it's your birthday, it's a little rum from Plum. Go to ChadCheese .com slash free, register, and win.


Chad (13:19.214)

Clones.


Joel Cheesman (13:19.29)

That's that's right. Another trip around the sun for some of our listeners. Happy birthday goes to Michelle Sargent, Amy Butchko, Matt Brigham, Sarah Starkweather, Jacqueline Adair, Matt Soroka, Sean Campbell, Madison Richard, Michelle Beer, Stephanie Trisic, Maria Simelton, Bruce Carey, Tyler McEveley, Kevin Robinson, Matt Lavery, our favorite Chicagoan for the for the month. Anyway, Matt Kaiser and Richard


Chad (13:44.078)

Yeah, there he is. There he is. UPS baby.


Joel Cheesman (13:49.146)

Carlsley, I'll celebrate another trip around the sun. By the way, I just sent Rich, or Matt Slavery won the birthday this week, or this month, and I got robbed. Uber Eats, okay, I sent him, I bought a nice bottle of rum, and somehow he got a shitty bottle of Captain Morgan. Okay, nah, I ain't going.


Chad (14:00.846)

Mm -hmm, yeah.


Chad (14:15.886)

This has to be rectified.


Joel Cheesman (14:17.21)

I ain't going down like that. So I'm going to, I'm going to send Matt a real bottle and hope that Uber eats gets it right. and if not, I'm just going to send him some old style that he can drink while he watches the cubs lose this weekend. But Matt, I got Rob, man. We don't, we don't do that at Chad and cheese. We, we bring the good shit and I'm going to make sure you get some good shit. So, yeah, happy birthday. We'll make sure that, Matt is taken care of.


Chad (14:42.862)

Yes. And look for, we actually interviewed Matt during Unleash. It was an amazing, amazing, amazing interview. Matt works for UPS. He's been there for 27 years and man, he gives us a history lesson, not to mention he talks about business. We're not just talking about talent and all, I mean business. And I love that. I love when TA leaders talk about, and they understand business. And we're going to be talking to some TA leaders.


Joel Cheesman (14:48.632)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (15:09.146)

And a fan of unions, by the way, we're talking about unions there. That's.


Chad (15:12.216)

yeah, yes, yeah, because I mean, the union is pretty much a part of UPS, but we're going to be talking to some other town acquisition HR practitioners in Scotland next week in Glasgow.


Chad (15:28.654)

That's right. The 21st of May, Glasgow and Edinburgh on the 23rd of May. Go to truescotland .com and thank you so much. We've got to thank Daxstra. Got to thank Ashby, Willow, Poetry, Gig .ai, Solutions Driven. I mean, these guys stepped up to the plate pretty quickly with their kilts on and taking some swings. So we really appreciate that, guys. We're going to see you next week.


Joel Cheesman (15:44.57)

Mm, hell yeah.


Chad (15:58.03)

gonna have some fun pulling some content together and going to these, these true events in Scotland. Then we've got a double header coming up. Mr. Cheeseman with a rec fest happening in Nebworth Park. One day event, July 11th and then rec fest coming to Nashville, September 12th and 13th. I can't be more excited than to get back to.


Joel Cheesman (16:07.97)

Yep.


Joel Cheesman (16:20.09)

Mm.


Chad (16:24.128)

Wreckfest I just again, I love events I love being able to get out and see the people but Wreckfest is just a different animal and if you're a practitioner that's out there This is what this is what you need to be doing There's already a company that has and I don't know if I can tell the name yet. They've they bought like a hundred tickets a hundred tickets for their entire TA staff TA and I'm sure some of the HR staff are coming to


Joel Cheesman (16:46.266)

Wow.


Chad (16:51.854)

but a very big company because why? Because Wreckfest is a pretty much easy button for your all hands day. Bring the entire crew, bring the entire group that come out to listen, learn and have some fun. Wreckfest at Nedworth Park and also Nashville. Go to chadcheese .com slash events and you'll see the information right there. Come to both.


Joel Cheesman (17:19.066)

Love it.


I wonder if the 100 tickets was for Indeed because at this rate that's about how many employees they're going to have at the end of the day. Which brings us to...


Chad (17:29.55)

Ouch. ZAPIX!


Joel Cheesman (17:35.78)

shit. Let's talk layoffs. Indeed .com announced a significant workforce reduction of about a thousand employees this week, which is approximately 8 % of its global workforce. CEO Chris Hyam cited the need to simplify the organization for faster decision -making and to drive revenue and hires more effectively. The layoffs are concentrated in the U S particularly affecting the R and D.


and some go -to -market teams. Chad, a thousand new people need Indeed this week. Indeed they do. Your thoughts.


Chad (18:14.744)

Okay, so the letter that Chris Himes wrote, I'm going to give you a quote out of it, quote, I am responsible for how we got here and the entire senior leadership team is responsible for making the difficult decisions necessary to help set us up for the future. We know that these decisions will have a significant impact on people's lives. End quote. No shit, Chris. And this isn't the first time that you've had to cut heads. Your way.


I don't know how many times I need to say it. He's not the guy for the job right now. He was the guy for the job for a few years, right? He's not the guy for the job now. He's not the guy who can actually take Indeed to the next level. And if you take a look at some of the SIA information that came out, the global market for online job ads fell 5%.


to 34 .4 billion in 2023 compared to the previous year, again, from SIA. Still, online job advertising revenue grew 151%, 151 % between 2015 and 2023, according to the same SIA report. Only being down 5%, right? 151%, that's not sustainable.


There's going to be a drop, right? But the thing is...


CEOs have to learn how to grow responsibly. And when you're cutting this many heads, I know this is 8%, but this isn't the first cut, right? You've got, yeah, I mean, this is, who needs to go at this point? It needs to be the guy at the top. Why? Because he's responsible. He even said that he's responsible. So if I am a board member, I'm looking for a replacement, a capable replacement who knows.


Joel Cheesman (19:55.834)

It's a thousand people. It's a lot of people.


Chad (20:13.774)

how to drive an organization like Indeed to grow responsibly, sustainably. Chris is not the guy, I'm sorry. And it sounds like I'm calling for a lot of heads here lately as I did for Ian's at Zip. But I think both of those organizations are at the point where, I mean, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, hey, am I the right guy for this? There are many people are not gonna look at themselves and say, yeah, I need to go ahead and I need to find my next thing.


These two, these guys are not it. And unfortunately, you know, I don't know who's going to be, be able to put a boot in their ass, but they're not going to do it to themselves.


Joel Cheesman (20:55.834)

That's a very interesting perspective. Recruit Holdings owns Indeed. Recruit Holdings is a staffing company. They bought Indeed 10 plus years ago. They bought Glassdoor kind of as a way to make sure ZipRecruiter didn't buy them at the time or someone else didn't. So there's a question of whether Chris is the guy to lead Indeed, but is Recruit...


the right organization to run a job site. I think there's, there's ample argument to say like, recruit may not know what the fuck they're doing with, with indeed Chris from all accounts is a nice guy. He looks like if you and I had a love child, it might look a little bit like Chris Himes, but that's aside from the point. So you bring up an interesting point and I would say like, I don't know if recruit holdings knows what the hell they're doing. They're a great staffing company, billions and billions in revenue, but.


Chad (21:49.294)

Could be.


Joel Cheesman (21:51.194)

I think juries out as to whether or not that they know what the hell to do with a, with a job site. And then they just launched, like a go, on demand job site in Japan. We'll see where that goes probably nowhere. but yeah, no, it's, it's, it's in beta now. It's only, it's Japan only anyway, listen to the shred. the shred has some insight into that. I just forget, what that was.


Chad (22:03.246)

Yeah, indeed go wasn't it?


Chad (22:12.406)

Joel Cheesman (22:17.946)

But to me, like you mentioned, layoffs previously, and that was back in March of 23, they laid off a 15 % of the workforce back then. It was around 2200 now, back then everyone was laying off, you know, multiple percentages of people. So maybe it was less, less big of a news, but to then come back to the table, and cut 8 % like that's significant. That's significant 15 and then 8 % of the workforce.


Chad (22:42.926)

It is. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (22:44.41)

I point a lot of this to not only maybe mismanagement from recruit holdings and Chris being the wrong guy, but also value act, which took a stake in recruit holdings back in November of 23. let me get this right. at the time they said, the two companies were set to benefit from smarter pricing, better cost management, and shrewd modernization of the services used to run websites, translation year of efficiency, cut fat.


cut heads do what private equity does and that's cut fat and increase profits. The problem is the profits aren't coming. So is this the end of the cuts? Like, I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. From what I heard is they were waiting for this new sourcing tool to be completed before they did anything. Recruit Holdings just announced their quarterly earnings. I'm sure they had to like,


Chad (23:30.158)

Yeah.


Chad (23:38.606)

Mm.


Joel Cheesman (23:41.53)

put some cloud cover with their earnings, which were awful with, Hey, we cut some people, cut some staff. So this is really just bad all around. sort is sourcing going to fix it? I don't think so. I think the, the four apocalypse are in full, full effect right now. I've, you know, the, the job board doctor is really quiet these days. I can't imagine why, and as we get to our next story, it's even worse for them, but yeah, it's.


Chad (23:46.222)

Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (24:09.082)

Things are bad for indeed in getting worse. I don't see any turnaround. They need a tech savvy guy that understands the internet because these staffing guys don't know what the fuck they're doing.


Chad (24:20.302)

So, I mean, cutting R &D and go to market, I mean, is that a way forward? I mean, is that really the way forward? I mean, you've got a platform that's 20 years old. And we've talked about like this with LinkedIn too. You know, how do you get through this? I mean, you've got a platform that should, to be quite frank, should be really matching jobs and delivering.


Joel Cheesman (24:23.166)

yeah, good idea. R &D, cut that.


Chad (24:48.046)

qualified jobs to qualified or jobs to qualified individuals, right? You should be there already. There's no reason we should not be there as an industry and indeed should have been leading that. The problem is they still have shitty tech. I mean, it's just it's it's crazy. Just listening to some of this shit, man. It's it's it's ridiculous. I don't get it. I just don't get it.


Joel Cheesman (24:51.002)

Yeah. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (25:08.954)

Yeah. Yeah. Usually the stories now are like, Hey, we're automating customer service. We're automating, you know, cutting sales staff and automating that process or marketing. You rarely ever hear about R and D, going, going to the wayside. So that's again, again, not a good sign, but from bad to worse, let's get to another, let's, this is our red, our red meat segment here.


Chad (25:21.614)

Yeah, ain't good at market. Jesus.


Chad (25:33.71)

Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (25:34.402)

All right, let's talk about zip recruiter. Good God, here we go.


From bad to worse, ZipRecruiter had a difficult first quarter featuring a significant, significant revenue decline and its first net loss since Q2 of 2021. The company reported a revenue of roughly $122 million, which was a 33 % decrease. Let me repeat that, a 33 % decrease from the previous year. This financial downturn was attributed.


Chad (25:53.038)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (26:05.754)

to a depressed labor demand and market factors. The company also experienced a 32 % drop in the number of paying employers. Chad, you weren't a fan of Zip's CEO before this report. How do you feel about the situation at Zip Recruiter now?


Chad (26:25.23)

Yeah, this doesn't feel like the red meat segment. It feels like the CEO heads need to roll segments. Yeah, I mean, you just, I mean, you lined it out there. I mean, revenue down 33 .5 % net loss, net loss 230%. One more time, net loss 230%. So as I stated earlier in the segment, the market is seeing a 5 % drop.


5 % drop, single digit, right? And we're seeing 230 % net loss. Yeah, I mean, if it's not a, I just don't know what needs to happen for organizations to understand that, cutting thousands of people like Zip and Indeed both have, once you do that and that doesn't.


remedy the problem, you might need to look at the top of the ivory fucking tower for God's sakes. We need better leadership in these positions. And as I'd said before, Ian, I thought was incredibly innovative until they got to IPO. I don't know if he got across that IPO finish line and just he's taken a fucking nap or what's going on. But I mean, things have gone from innovation to non -existent.


Joel Cheesman (27:53.498)

I'll try to be as nice about this as I can. zip recruiter right now is a pile of dog shit sprinkled with cat turds stock down 8%, which by the way, it's down quite a bit. before that look, you had a great brand, a brand that represented hourly work, seasonal work, part -time work. and it was the gold standard for that market. They lost their shit.


Chad (28:22.35)

Was, yeah.


Joel Cheesman (28:22.586)

decided to create a brand for everybody, put some Phil AI bullshit as, as their mascot slash tech, they went AI, they went enterprise and they went IPO and it's been a shit show ever since. They're not going to go back to what they were. The game is up. They're in Santa Monica, California. It's much nicer to go to the beach and hang out there than it is to like figure out this company.


Chad (28:38.51)

And then they went to shit. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (28:52.09)

I think that your calls for Ian to go are legit. This company is going nowhere fast. And if we get into like recession territory in the greater economy, like you're going to see some real pain at a place like ZipRecruiter. If I'm an employee at ZipRecruiter right now, I'm really nervous and I'm updating my LinkedIn profile.


Chad (29:01.902)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (29:19.502)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we take a look at sports. We see like quarterbacks who've lost a step and they just get, they get hammered. And so does the, so does the team. The CEO has got to, again, they've got to take a look. It's like, Hey, look, you've lost a step. you know, maybe you should go back and try another startup or something. You can't, you can't be in the NFL anymore. You need to be in the UFL maybe.


Joel Cheesman (29:44.218)

Look, Ian was great at building a brand, getting a niche and being the best service in that niche. They were a better, cooler Craigslist for that market and they have lost their way. It's time to make some serious changes at ZipRecruiter if they're going to save that thing.


Chad (29:49.934)

taking it to IPO.


Chad (29:56.014)

Yeah.


Chad (29:59.436)

Wow.


Chad (30:04.302)

Yeah.


Agreed. Agreed.


Joel Cheesman (30:07.386)

Hmm. All right. More red meat for the listeners. Eightfold has introduced Eightfold Talent Tracking, an AI native applicant tracking system aiming to streamline HR technology investments and enhance the talent acquisition process, promising to accelerate successful job offers, provide a cohesive experience for talent teams and candidates.


Chad (30:15.244)

Hmm.


Joel Cheesman (30:35.226)

and offer skills based compensation intelligence. Don't call it an ATS Chad. Your thoughts on eight folds talent tracking.


Chad (30:47.31)

Yeah, so when Eightfold took 125 million back in October of 2020, I said that that kind of money means that they're going to have to become some sort of platform. And my prediction was that platform is going to have to be an applicant tracking system. I doubled down when Eightfold received an additional 220 million in June of 2021, less than a year from each other. I mean, they had $345 million in less than a year. Now,


taking hundreds of millions of dollars in that short amount of time means there has to be some grander vision that investors bought into. And that vision could have been owning your specialty and then landing new customers and then slowly expanding your product base organically into that portfolio. That's how you gain wallet share. That's responsible growth. But...


You can also expand your offerings too fast. And I remember back in my monster days, so story time kids, we were killing the job revenue game. And then we started expanding into areas that we had no expertise. So do you remember Monster Momentum, that product? Yeah, of course you don't. Of course you don't. It was an applicant tracking system that never took off. Why didn't it take off?


Joel Cheesman (32:00.122)

No, I do not remember monster momentum.


huh.


Chad (32:10.548)

Monster was a job listing service. And then the Monster staff, they were wonderful at selling and servicing and upselling those job ad accounts, but they were never an HR tech company. That's an entirely different animal. And that's why Monster Momentum never made it out of the cradle. So that's what I'm seeing here with Eightfold. Not only did they start out as a matching platform, they weren't even a leader in that specific domain.


Monster was at least a leader in a domain before they started to step out of it, right? Before they failed miserably with Monster Momentum. So Eightfold takes more money and dramatically opens up their total addressable market with regard to solutions offering and expanding their geographic footprint. I just don't think Eightfold, you know, I think they're not gonna fail because they're launching.


an applicant tracking system, I believe eightfold will fail because they are growing their total addressable market at an unsustainable rate. Taking too much money too fast. That can really blur your vision and your discipline goes out the window. And then you become an expert at nothing. And I was thinking about this kind of like with ZipRecruiter, but this goes along with...


This goes along with eightfold too. What's the easiest way to get $100 million in your bank account? Start with $345 million.


Joel Cheesman (33:49.818)

Mark Twain said I went broke slowly and then all of a sudden or suddenly, you know, Chano Fernandez, the former co CEO of Workday became the co CEO of Eightfold in January of this year. So are we surprised that innovation out of Workday's fold co CEO is in is in the the form of an ATS that they somehow want to rename talent tracking.


Chad (33:54.734)

Hahahaha


Chad (34:06.894)

weird.


Weird.


Chad (34:16.622)

yeah.


Joel Cheesman (34:19.514)

because we're eightfold and we're cool. So let me, let me give, let me give you the quote from the press release. Let me get this right. Okay. Quote talent tracking is our latest leap into the future. A revolutionary tool that's been designed from the ground up with responsible AI and unparalleled user experience. Top of mind that's CEO Ashutosh Gara of eightfold.


Chad (34:23.342)

Mmm.


Joel Cheesman (34:49.752)

Fuck you, it's an ATS. These guys are the masters of like shining a turd. This is what they do. They put so many buzzwords and like what the cool kids are saying and consumers are going, what the fuck did they just say? But I'm all for it because AI and revolutionary and all these cool words are using it. These...


Chad (35:05.262)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm.


Chad (35:11.982)

Exactly.


Chad (35:17.87)

Buzzword bingo.


Joel Cheesman (35:18.746)

These guys are this is the Emperor has no clothes. This is an ATS. This is revolutionary 25 years ago. And you guys are acting like you just split the atom in 1945. Like, fuck you, man. I God, this company is so full of shit. Look, they got money, they built a product, they built a brand, they had a chance to sell it. They didn't.


Okay, so now they're in a spot where let's let's hire work days guy. Let's build like everything for everybody. And just like workday, they're going to be okay for most things, but not really great at everything. And that's where this company is going. It'll be fun to watch and talk about but God the


Chad (35:46.286)

Yeah? Yeah? Yeah?


Chad (35:59.278)

Yeah. Right.


Joel Cheesman (36:08.346)

It's so frustrating to like read this shit and know that consumers are going, I bought a cool product when you didn't. It's an A fucking T fucking S fucking eightfold man. Jenny, Jenny Kangas, man, please help me. Help me. Our friend of the show is a new employee there. Help us understand this thing because from where I sit, this is a turd with some Shinola on it and nothing else.


Chad (36:22.286)

So that.


Chad (36:28.75)

I don't know.


Chad (36:38.478)

Hmm. So in the interesting thing is Workday bought Hired Score, right? Who actually they did focus specifically on a domain and get that domain right. I think that it's kind of like the tale of two cities there. I mean, obviously Hired Score didn't take hundreds of millions of dollars, which I think was incredibly smart for Hired Score. But again, we're talking, you know, two tales here and Workday not buying eightfold.


Right? I mean, after taking all that money, how the fuck could I mean, that's just that just crazy cash. But then being able to go after a company like Hired Score again, I mean, I just think we talked about it on the show a million fucking times. There is such a thing as taking too much money. As a matter of fact, taking too much money will probably kick you in the nuts much faster than not getting enough.


Joel Cheesman (37:31.194)

I'm on record. I'm not convinced work day. Isn't going to fuck up that acquisition. I'm on record. I'm on record. Well, time will tell time. We'll talk. I need a breather. Let's take a break and, go back to the future. Everybody.


Chad (37:38.796)

Okay.


Joel Cheesman (37:49.336)

All right, Chad, it's time for Back to the Future.


Chad (37:50.926)

get you a paper bag.


Joel Cheesman (37:57.658)

That's right. Just like eightfold thinking that launching an ATS is cool. Let's go back to the future with starting. Elon Musk is doubling down on recruitment X the artists formerly known as Twitter is rolling out job recommendations in the U S market. A continuation of the X hiring project that began life in July of last year and a post on the site X hiring announced quote, you can now start seeing.


personalized job recommendations directly on your timelines tailored to your preferences." End quote. Chad, you've been pretty consistent on your less than glowing opinion of Musk and ex jobs. Does this one change your mind?


Chad (38:46.858)

We have tech companies building models that are ingesting data, contextualizing and matching jobs to candidates. We have tech companies who are building engagement and experience systems. We have large language models. We have all, I mean, multimodal. All this stuff is going on and yet this is the original job board job search agent that we had over 25 years ago. And I'm not saying that.


You have to be on the razor's edge of innovation in our space. But from what I'm seeing, Twitter doesn't even understand the basics or even where to start building today's engagement platform. And that's what you need to build if you want to drive Musk -like revenue. They're not going to get there. They're lost in the sauce. If you know how to build a system from the ground up, you will look at this and say,


These guys are throwing shit at the wall. They have no fucking clue what they're doing. And they're starting with 1998 job search shit, 97, 96 job search agents. This is ridiculous.


Joel Cheesman (39:59.13)

So let's take a quick glance at Elon's resume. The dude launches rockets and then he brings them back and lands them. Okay? The Chinese can't figure that shit out. Okay? This guy revolutionized electric vehicles. I own a Tesla. It's amazing. No matter, well, my wife owns a Tesla. She says it's amazing. And when she lets me drive it,


It seems amazing. This is a guy who is giving internet to Ukraine from space as it's fighting Russia. This is a guy who's digging holes in Vegas, creating an entire like transit system under the ground in Vegas. And this, and this, this is innovation. Like this, this is what they're doing.


Chad (40:43.342)

I don't believe they're paying for it, yeah.


Chad (40:50.446)

Not anymore. Not anymore.


Joel Cheesman (40:58.522)

man. I mean, there's low hanging fruit. Apparently they're not getting enough subscribers to their service and jobs is low hanging fruit. I mean, he's talked shit about LinkedIn every week for the last year. Let's see some LinkedIn competitor shit. Let's see like some real shit showing me jobs in my feed. Isn't innovation dude. Like I just, I'm so


Chad (40:59.374)

I could do I get nothing.


Chad (41:21.198)

Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (41:28.628)

disappointed that he just he's out of his element dude, get out of hire a CEO that knows tech or has done this shit before. An ex like someone from LinkedIn, like that would be interesting and do LinkedIn stuff from LinkedIn. This is a guy who is a genius and this is what innovation is out of Twitter hiring, ex hiring, whatever the fuck we're calling it like.


they might get a few more clicks from their relationship with AppCast or whoever's putting jobs on there now, but man, there seems no traction of companies like getting the gold check and get my jobs on there. Those are the releases I wanna see, not some crazy jobs in your feet, everybody. Yay. Really disappointing, really disappointing.


Chad (42:17.454)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the biggest issue that we have here is that they know what their problem is, and that's lack of user data. OK. And we're talking about user data. We mean like LinkedIn has pretty much our whole profile on there, our whole career profile, right? Twitter doesn't have that. They're not going to gain access to it. So what are they going to do? Well, they're just going to go into tell me what you want and we'll deliver it bullshit.


I mean, again, this to me, this is not where you start, okay? You have the ability to actually start building and engaging your users to get more data from them. This is not it. This is not it.


Joel Cheesman (43:03.642)

You know what I would be more impressed with? I would be more impressed if Twitter said, you know what? Every time someone tweets out, I hate my job. My boss is an asshole. Like fuck the man. We're going to give them jobs because we know they're pissed at their workplace and we're going to give them jobs based on where they are. Geo locate jobs. That's something that's new. Like that's something you can do that most other people can't, but no, we get, yeah. Recommended jobs in your feed.


Chad (43:23.438)

It's a signal. Yeah, it's a signal.


That's signal.


Joel Cheesman (43:32.922)

everybody. That's


Chad (43:34.67)

Well, if they did that, and then they could also have, they could partner with companies that actually already have a lot of profile data, or they could make it easier to make their profile more robust, but they're just, they're not going through that process, and that's where you start. You don't start with this bullshit. This is not where you start. Anyway, stupid.


Joel Cheesman (43:56.474)

connect my Twitter email with my application at whatever company and grab my profile from the ATS, bring it into the data set of what I have on Twitter and serve me jobs based on what my resume is from my ATS application. Like there's so much cool shit they could do, but this is what they get, man. This is, it's awful.


Chad (44:04.494)

Mm.


Chad (44:22.478)

Got nothing.


Joel Cheesman (44:24.898)

All right. More back to the future shit. That's right. I want to play the sound by it again. Stack overflow has partnered with indeed on a quote new version of stack overflow jobs. This experiment will explore a dedicated space that puts thousands of highly relevant jobs at the fingerprints of developers. The job site is currently available in the U S and may eventually expand to more markets.


Chad (44:29.294)

Whoo.


Joel Cheesman (44:52.73)

It's a co branded job board, Chad, how innovative your thoughts?


Chad (44:59.342)

Yeah. Remember back in the job backfill Olympics days when Indeed and Simply Hired were literally racing to build search widgets and blog job search platforms just to say that they've got their shit out there all over the place. This is the same thing. I mean, and that was over a decade ago. So, you know, here we go again.


Joel Cheesman (45:04.426)

yeah.


Joel Cheesman (45:10.778)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (45:21.966)

I was a huge proponent of stack going into the jobs business because they have enough data on their user base to feed relevant jobs, which was why I was surprised when they shut it down. And now to be replaced with this seems incredibly lazy. Why is it lazy? Here's a quote off the Stack Overflow website, quote, Stack Overflow and indeed have clearly defined criteria based on job title, job title.


to ensure jobs posted on Stack Overflow jobs are relevant to a technical audience, end quote. Yes, kids, job titles. Not relevance, not fit to skills, no matching, just keyword search variables. The same shit that we were doing back in the late 1990s. I don't understand this. Indeed, there's gotta be some kind of revenue play here, some form, some fashion.


I'm sharing click, click money, who knows, but I mean, this is, this is just weak sauce.


Joel Cheesman (46:29.178)

Speaking of Back to the Future, when I worked at JobOptions, our entire marketing strategy and acquisition strategy was partnerships. I was the partnership dude at one point where we would just put a jobs link on these sites and we would create a white label, co -branded job site. People would search for jobs and then we would split revenue. If someone posted a job, they'd get 30%, we'd get 70%, whatever.


Chad (46:29.194)

I'm


Chad (46:50.222)

Right. Yep. Everybody did it. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (46:57.978)

and then indeed happened and API has happened and search happened and it became really easy for someone to plug in an API and do searches and have jobs. And then on a pay per click basis, you'd get paid a portion of the click. Like AdSense kind of took that model out of, out of circulation. And I can remember paying some bigger sites, you know, quite a bit of money at the time for like the real estate.


Chad (47:20.174)

and killed it.


Joel Cheesman (47:26.65)

to have a job section. We had some portals that are no longer around, but we would pay them for that privilege for whatever reason. I indeed has killed their API thing. I don't know if it was like competitive, like put job boards out of business or like stick it to whatever. There's too much spam or maybe fraud. Maybe click fraud was a big issue. I don't know, but they killed it. And then a few months or a year later, they're like, we're doing this network thing.


we have healthcare and we have tech and all these little partnerships. I'm like, you had it. So I don't know what happened to where they kind of went back and then are coming back. I agree that the stack overflow is, is a nice partnership to have. Stack overflow is very non -committal on this though. They're like, well, we're in the U S we may, may launch it somewhere else. literally the, the press release, from the CEO of Sackoverlose.


Chad (48:18.548)

yeah.


Joel Cheesman (48:25.594)

was quote, our primary goal with Stack Overflow jobs is to simply learn. Does that sound like a committed company ready to put jobs in front of the users? Probably because their users hate jobs. their users aren't like, they say that the users like jobs, but I bet like it's a thing that people don't like on Stack Overflow that want jobs to get headhunter calls all the time. I think, I think indeed is writing a check. I think indeed is writing a big check.


Chad (48:36.238)

No, no, no.


Joel Cheesman (48:55.546)

And Stack Overflow is like, we can't say no. They made them an offer they couldn't refuse. He took the deal, but he's also saying like, Hey, we're not, it's just kind of a thing. We're just learning here. We're just cashing checks. It's all good. and then indeed can go to their, their customers and go, Hey man, we got this cool network of tech people. We're on Stack Overflow, which puts more money in indeed spot. So I think, I think this is just like,


Chad (49:09.07)

Yeah. Yeah.


Chad (49:19.18)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (49:21.754)

Money and Stack Overflow, Indeed's writing a check. They're sucking it out of customers who are like, we need tech people and Indeed has this partnership with Stack Overflow. It's regurgitating the past. A lot of it is because Google traffic has slowed down. So we've got to find other ways to do it. By the way, we don't talk enough on this show about generative AI and search results on Google. Almost every Google search now is just like, here's the answer.


Chad (49:47.886)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (49:50.426)

I don't have to click on a site. I don't have to go anywhere. Like that's really bad, not just for big sites, but that's really bad for little sites and con like content creators. that's hitting indeed and everybody else. So they need to find ways to put jobs in front of people through these partnerships. and this is just another example of what they're doing. I expect them to hit the healthcare market pretty heavy, here in the next 12, 24 months as well. We'll be talking about those partnerships.


Chad (49:55.054)

And they give you the source.


Chad (50:18.734)

Yeah, it just seems like a couple of, once again, two markets that are not the same at all, and that indeed they're not experts in. So, you know, it'll be interesting. Again, I think this is more jazz hands than anything else. Look at what I have here. Look at what I have here. Yeah, but you don't have the people actually engaging. You don't have the outcomes. And not to mention, if you could get all that fucking data.


Joel Cheesman (50:32.376)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (50:40.12)

Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (50:44.506)

Mm -hmm.


Chad (50:45.678)

and you can match against it. wait a minute. Your matching sucks. I guess it doesn't matter.


Joel Cheesman (50:49.178)

Yeah, here's the, we learned at job options that roughly three to 5 % of the traffic actually will click on jobs. So, you know, indeed it's going to sell this as like, Hey man, everybody on stack overflow is going to the jobs and they're checking your shit out. Like, especially with this audience, I bet it's like one to 2 % are going to click over and look for jobs. So look, if.


Chad (50:57.166)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (51:12.922)

If you're an employer and you get a call from Indeed and they start pitching Stack Overflow and how hot it is and how cool it is, do some data dive and see what kind of percentage actual traffic from Stack Overflow is going to the jobs.


Chad (51:29.87)

Lots of luck kids, lots of luck.


Joel Cheesman (51:30.874)

Well enough of this trip down memory lane. Let's get back to what we know best. Only fans will be right back.


Chad (51:43.854)

All right. This is in Euro Chad mode and this has been really a downer episode because all of these companies we're talking about are doing stupid shit. Can you give me something that will uplift everybody's soul, please?


Joel Cheesman (51:45.484)

Yep.


Joel Cheesman (51:55.738)

Well, I will, I will categorize this as the why we can't have nice things, discussion, but so let's set the table here. there's a, there's an organization, they're kind of artsy charity thing. It's portals .org. I think. So they take this big circle thing. It's called the portal and they connect two communities to each other around the world. And it's like a camera, a live stream of people in an area.


And you've probably seen this on the news. It's kind of a big creepy Lord of the Rings, eye in the sky thing that you can kind of see through and see people. So you've probably seen this on the news. They recently connected Dublin, Ireland with New York city. Like who thought that was a good idea? needs to like check themselves because these are two demographics. Like, let's be honest.


Chad (52:27.214)

It's like a big Facebook portal, right? I mean...


Chad (52:45.518)

No problem there.


Joel Cheesman (52:52.602)

are prone to a little bit of knuckleheadedness. Okay. So, so, so Ireland starts showing pictures of like the world trade center, the twin towers burning. Like they start, they, they started it. Ireland started it from what I understand. So then New Yorkers start putting like pictures of potatoes, just like stupid shit, right? Flipping them off.


suck it, you know, suck it Ireland, whatever. So you know where this is going, dude. You know where this is going. A New Yorker, her name is Ava Louise, probably not her real name. She decides to flash the Dublin faithful. I don't think there were any angry customers on that, but it sparked, it sparked outrage and it has shut down the portal.


for now, it probably never will come back on between Dublin and New York. It needs to be like Boise and I don't know, Cork or something. No, Cork's probably even worse. Anyway, so the joke's on us, okay? So Ava, she's on OnlyFans, imagine that, she's on OnlyFans. So there's no bad advertising, there's only good advertising. So she is, yeah, she's.


Chad (54:02.446)

Hey.


Chad (54:08.142)

Yeah.


create promotion. God, no. Especially with boobies. I mean, come on.


Joel Cheesman (54:16.698)

She's gone from 400 ,000 Instagram followers, which was not too shabby. I think to like 450 the last time I checked for flashing her boobs and sex sells as you know, Chad. So she made it, she's increased her monthly revenue on OnlyFans after this incident, 8 ,000 pounds per month.


Chad (54:32.714)

yeah.


Joel Cheesman (54:41.338)

What is that? That's like, that's like 9 ,000, $10 ,000 in USD. yeah, this was an English English story, so I don't know. But yeah, for, for flashing Ireland, she's getting $10 ,000 more per month on, on her only fans. Thanks to her transatlantic flashing. This is why we can't have nice things, Chad.


Chad (54:44.558)

Wow. Yeah, yeah.


Chad (55:01.614)

This is, I mean, first and foremost, let's just be frank here. Everybody loves boobies. I mean, boobs are welcomed everywhere. They're universal, right? Yes. So, you know, I think she was just trying to bring the temperature down, which I appreciate.


Joel Cheesman (55:13.434)

Universal. Universally loved.


Chad (55:24.558)

And I think to be quite frank, we should probably do this whole boobies tour all over the world to bring the temperature down guys, bring the temperature down. And just so that everybody out there knows, we're going to have a Chad and cheese portal, where we're going to invite Ava and the rest of the world to bring the temperature down because Chad and cheese and all of you love boobies and we love to deescalate.


Joel Cheesman (55:46.714)

Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (55:53.882)

Chad and cheese do love boobies everybody. Her quote was that she just wanted to show Ireland her potatoes. Appropriate, appropriate. By the way, Chad, I haven't gotten a dad joke in this week. How do you make an Irishman cry?


Chad (55:53.902)

issues.


Chad (56:02.958)

Okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. Yes.


Chad (56:11.566)

Take away his Guinness.


Joel Cheesman (56:12.186)

Say last call. We out.


Chad (56:15.646)

We out!

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