Knocking Off Indeed

This Week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast – Live from UNLEASH America 2025

We’re joined by Meghan Rhatigan, VP of Talent Acquisition Experience at Marriott, for a no-fluff look at how hiring is really changing.

Meghan unpacks 15 years of transformation at Marriott—tech upgrades, shifting candidate behavior, and a serious rethink of the old job board addiction.

🔥 In this episode:

• Chatbots vs. search: what candidates actually want

• The slow death of job boards (maybe Indeed)

• How Marriott drives organic traffic without gimmicks

• DEI beyond the buzzwords—global, real, and political

• What HR tech Meghan wishes existed right now

From politics to platform fatigue, we’re getting honest about what’s working, what’s broken, and where recruiting is headed.

🎧 Press play if you’re tired of hearing “candidate experience” from people who’ve never filled a role. Meghan’s the real deal.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

0:00:00.2 Meghan Rhatigan: If I'm an Appcast of the world, even the Indeeds of the world.

0:00:03.3 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:00:04.1 Meghan Rhatigan: I would be worried because companies like us have figured out, and particularly now with the market being the way that it is, we're just scraping it give me more candidates, baby because I'm going to need them one day, but I don't want to pay for them. But it is... It's totally diminishing their relevance in a lot of ways.

0:00:23.3 Chad Sowash: Oh, God. Yeah.

0:00:27.0 Joel Cheesman: All right, let's do this. We are live from the Gem booth at Unleash in beautiful Las Vegas. This is the hungover edition...

0:00:35.5 Chad Sowash: Yes.

0:00:36.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh yeah.

0:00:36.5 Joel Cheesman: Of The Chad & Cheese Podcast.

0:00:37.5 Chad Sowash: Thank God for HiBob coffee.

0:00:38.2 Joel Cheesman: I'm Joel Cheesman, your co-host, always with me, Chad Sowash, as much as I try to get rid of him. And we are just ecstatic to welcome...

0:00:46.5 Chad Sowash: You can't quit me. You can't quit me.

0:00:47.3 Joel Cheesman: Can't quit me. That's right. Meghan Rhatigan, VP of TA at Marriott. Marriott like Chariot.

0:00:55.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Chariot. There you go.

0:00:55.0 Joel Cheesman: Just so I got it right.

0:00:55.7 Chad Sowash: Get it right, kids. Get it right, kids.

0:00:57.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Marriott like Chariot.

0:00:58.8 Joel Cheesman: Meghan welcome again.

0:00:59.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Thank you.

0:01:01.0 Joel Cheesman: Two time guest on HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.

0:01:04.6 Chad Sowash: The first one isn't out yet.

0:01:05.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:01:06.0 Chad Sowash: So we can't count it till it's actually out.

0:01:09.0 Joel Cheesman: Is there a chance we won't release it?

0:01:11.4 Meghan Rhatigan: It's very possible.

0:01:11.5 Chad Sowash: No, but it's gonna be we... It's...

0:01:13.2 Joel Cheesman: She's still been a guest twice.

0:01:14.6 Chad Sowash: It's a part of a... It's a part of an AI sessions, which is season three. It's a very special season. It's gonna probably... It's gonna come out later this year. So you're gonna see her again.

0:01:23.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yes.

0:01:24.1 Joel Cheesman: So she's not live yet, but she has been a guest twice.

0:01:27.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Right.

0:01:27.8 Joel Cheesman: Is that fair...

0:01:28.0 Chad Sowash: Let's just say she's been exposed to Chad and Cheese.

0:01:30.6 Joel Cheesman: Which means if it hasn't aired yet, our listeners, viewers don't know who you are. So give us the elevator pitch.

0:01:37.3 Meghan Rhatigan: All right, so I have been within the HR space about 20-ish years. 15 of those years with Marriott. I've done the rotation between TA, organizational change management, back in TA now leading the tech operations strategy area. So everything that touches a candidate, hiring, manager, recruiter, falls under my space.

0:02:00.9 Chad Sowash: Change Management. Okay.

0:02:02.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh yeah.

0:02:02.3 Chad Sowash: So this for me is the most interesting because we don't focus enough on change management in TA and we're literally changing all the time.

0:02:11.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:02:12.3 Chad Sowash: So, I mean, how long have you been doing change management inside of TA?

0:02:20.5 Meghan Rhatigan: I have been doing it for about three years. So I did it within Marriott for about five years. And then I made the transition into TA when we were needing to do a big transformation post pandemic, like we weren't hiring fast enough. We didn't have the right technology, we were totally caught flat footed and we needed to basically transform everything we were doing. And so I came in to help do that and drive that forward. Yeah.

0:02:50.2 Chad Sowash: So talk a little bit about that because after COVID, huge... I mean, huge transformation necessary because obviously that pandemic bomb dropped. But then moving forward now with tech and how fast tech is moving and how tech stacks are being skinnied down, they're being added to, did you just automatically flow into those positions around technology as well as just basic ops?

0:03:17.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Yes, I mean... So Marriott, like other companies right now, we're trying to figure out how to do more with less. We're in growth mode right now. So we just acquired citizenM last week. We're trying to figure out how do we continue to scale, but from an HR perspective and directive, we're not adding headcount. So we got to figure out how to double in size without adding headcount. And that is applicable of course, through our recruiting team. And so we need to figure out how do we continue to scale using technology and other opportunities. But headcount's not the option. Can't do that. Not anymore.

0:04:00.0 Joel Cheesman: So 15 years, which means you started when you were 10 at Marriott.

0:04:04.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh yeah. Totally.

0:04:04.6 Joel Cheesman: You've seen a lot of things come and go. And I always love the veterans that come on the show for perspective for the kids. Talk about the industry when you started.

0:04:13.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh God.

0:04:14.4 Joel Cheesman: And what has changed in that 15 year period?

0:04:17.6 Chad Sowash: History lesson.

0:04:18.9 Joel Cheesman: Yep.

0:04:19.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Well, when I started in HR, I was inputting information from fax forms. So you know...

0:04:28.1 Chad Sowash: Ooh. I remember those days.

0:04:29.3 Joel Cheesman: Wow.

0:04:30.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Started there.

0:04:30.8 Joel Cheesman: 2010, you were still doing faxes?

0:04:32.8 Meghan Rhatigan: No, that was before 2010. But in 2010, let's see, we... That was the world of outsourcing. Like everybody was looking at BPO outsourcing shared services and taking all of like the administrative tasks off of HR and trying to put into this gigantic shared service model. We did that like including in recruiting and we had a big RPO like for 15 years. But post pandemic we made the decision to bring that in house for a number of reasons. Like it was very easy to scale back in those days, like by outsourcing everything. But then you got too far away from the business. Like we were basically like glorified vendor managers instead of like running a recruiting shop. And that's actually part of what got us into trouble post pandemic is because like we weren't close enough to the work to even know what to begin to scale or how to move faster.

0:05:31.7 Chad Sowash: You didn't have the infrastructure, you didn't have the connections?

0:05:34.0 Meghan Rhatigan: No.

0:05:35.1 Chad Sowash: I mean, the connective tissue.

0:05:36.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Right.

0:05:36.7 Chad Sowash: Goes away when you go into an RPO scenario.

0:05:39.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Correct. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, like 15 years ago, it was about outsource. Get it out, get it out, get it out. But I think we actually... We took it too far and we needed to pull it back real quick.

0:05:50.3 Chad Sowash: It's usually how it works.

0:05:51.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:05:52.0 Chad Sowash: Usually how it works.

0:05:53.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:05:54.0 Joel Cheesman: So the pandemic hits, you guys take control. What learnings did you have in the last five years in terms of technology? What works, what doesn't, what was the vision? I know branding is really important to you. Talk about that five-year period of how things evolved.

0:06:08.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. So when the pandemic hit, we were in the hospitality travel industry. We were severely hit. Like we closed at one point, like 70% of our hotels just shut down.

0:06:19.5 Chad Sowash: Wow.

0:06:20.3 Meghan Rhatigan: When...

0:06:20.9 Chad Sowash: 70?

0:06:22.1 Meghan Rhatigan: 70. Yeah.

0:06:22.6 Chad Sowash: Wow.

0:06:23.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Insane. Right?

0:06:23.9 Chad Sowash: Yes.

0:06:24.4 Meghan Rhatigan: When the world...

0:06:24.5 Joel Cheesman: And the Ritz-Carlton still wouldn't take my reservation. Just so, you know. I'm very...

0:06:27.9 Chad Sowash: Well especially then.

0:06:29.3 Joel Cheesman: Very upset about that.

0:06:29.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Exactly. When the world started to come back and people were now itching to travel, like leisure travel went gangbusters. But because we couldn't hire fast enough, we actually couldn't open up the door. So we had... Our customer demand was like skyrocketing.

0:06:47.0 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:06:47.4 Meghan Rhatigan: But we couldn't meet the customer demand because we couldn't hire fast enough. And like us, like everybody else was dealing with this employment market where there wasn't... There weren't people to hire. Like, nobody was really that motivated to come back, particularly to frontline.

0:07:00.3 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:07:01.1 Meghan Rhatigan: And speed was everything. And we did not know how to operate in a like fast paced recruiting environment because we were living in la la land of being Marriott and having like, you know, 300 people to choose from and taking our time. And no matter how shitty our application process was or how long it took, they were still like really excited.

0:07:21.8 Chad Sowash: It is what it is. Yeah.

0:07:23.0 Meghan Rhatigan: It is what it is. But then...

0:07:24.6 Chad Sowash: Until it's not.

0:07:24.9 Meghan Rhatigan: In the pandemic... Until it's not. Like, then it was like, no, wait, actually like, you're one of like 15 options I have and you didn't get to me first. So therefore I'm not coming on board. So like, we were in a major problem where we couldn't open hotels. And so we were like, all right, we gotta basically like clear the slate, start over. We gotta figure out how to do this quickly and introduce automation. So that's where like the Paradox piece started to come in. Because when we looked at our process, like the biggest time suck was interviewing. It's just like hiring managers weren't motivated to do it. It's a pain in the ass to have to deal with candidates and all their like, scheduling requests and all that. So we're like, let's start with interview scheduling. And by the way we called it automation, not AI because nobody was wanting to touch AI. Still is a little bit that way.

0:08:18.5 Chad Sowash: So that was a way to actually get the project to go further without questions.

0:08:25.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Correct. Yeah.

0:08:26.1 Chad Sowash: Okay.

0:08:26.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Because it was like, it was a process that nobody cared about that was very low risk but had high impact in terms of like, that was what was taking the most amount of time. So, yeah, that was kind of the first impetus to us moving a bit faster to be able to meet the customer demand with hiring.

0:08:44.4 Chad Sowash: Here at The Chad & Cheese Podcast, one thing that we love is obviously you watching, but also like and subscribe.

0:08:52.4 Joel Cheesman: How long have you been on Paradox?

0:08:55.0 Meghan Rhatigan: About a little over two years now.

0:08:57.3 Joel Cheesman: Two years?

0:08:57.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:08:58.2 Joel Cheesman: So a little bit of historical data. I'm curious. So when I go to your career site, I have sort of a traditional search box and then I have Olivia in the corner.

0:09:05.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:09:06.4 Joel Cheesman: What, what's the divide between the people who are engaging with a chatbot versus I'm just going to put in my search and do it that way.

0:09:13.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah it's...

0:09:14.2 Joel Cheesman: And how has that evolved?

0:09:14.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah, so it's interesting. We actually see higher conversion rates with the people who use Olivia to do their job search than we do with people who just like start with the bar. And I think that's because people are honestly like, the chatbot is there. People are used to seeing it on the consumer side. We're now finally introducing it on the employment side. And it's just easy. And I'd rather have... I'd rather ask a question. Show me housekeeping jobs in Scottsdale, Arizona and I get a bunch than me having to like type in my zip code and like, I don't know, whatever else it's asking me to do, I can just ask a question. And I think like for us, like that whole agentic ideas is very appealing.

0:10:00.1 Joel Cheesman: But do you know a divide between what percentage does the search versus the chatbot?

0:10:04.1 Meghan Rhatigan: I would say if I were to just like ballpark it, I would say like honestly, 60% of the people are using the search. Because the way that we've designed it, and this is a design choice. We have that pop up, actually overlay the search bar. Like when you're on a mobile phone, you'll see the actual chat pop up first and foremost.

0:10:24.1 Joel Cheesman: So 60% are using Olivia, the chat experience?

0:10:26.6 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:27.1 Joel Cheesman: Okay. Are you surprised by that number or is that kind of what you expected?

0:10:31.0 Meghan Rhatigan: I'm a little bit surprised by the number because honestly I... The search bar thing was something that people are so used to, and I thought, I don't know if they're going to want to talk to somebody. But no it's actually been easier for them to have the conversation.

0:10:45.5 Chad Sowash: I mean, candidates don't feel like they're heard in the first place. So it kind of, if you think about it, it's like, oh, wait a minute, I can now be heard.

0:10:53.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yes.

0:10:54.1 Chad Sowash: Whether it's a chat bot or not a chat bot, at least if I want to ask questions, I have the ability where before it was just a search box.

0:11:01.6 Meghan Rhatigan: Right.

0:11:02.0 Chad Sowash: I could just apply. Now, what's the difference between the application process. I would assume that it's huge. Because you were looking for speed. Are most applications happening through conversational AI, or is that literally just helping them understand and then they're going through more of a traditional type app...

0:11:20.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. For us right now, it's just the traditional type apply.

0:11:23.8 Chad Sowash: Okay.

0:11:25.2 Meghan Rhatigan: I will tell you, though, we want to get to that conversational experience, but the market isn't driving that right now. Like, we have too many candidates at the moment. So putting our focus...

0:11:39.5 Joel Cheesman: So no incentive.

0:11:40.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. On that type of technology at this moment, where the market isn't necessarily one where we want to spend a whole lot of time. But, you know, from a candidate experience, it makes a lot of sense. It's just like I always get told the second I bring it up, "Do we really need more candidates?" I'm like, "Okay, you're right, we don't." So...

0:11:59.6 Chad Sowash: So but the thing is, you can't be caught off guard because...

0:12:02.9 Meghan Rhatigan: No you can't.

0:12:03.0 Chad Sowash: When the market turns, the market turns.

0:12:04.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Exactly. Yeah.

0:12:05.3 Chad Sowash: And if you can't meet the market where it is...

0:12:07.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Then we're screwed.

0:12:08.5 Chad Sowash: Yeah, then you're screwed. Right?

0:12:09.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Exactly.

0:12:10.5 Joel Cheesman: And in light of that, we talked to a lot of bigger companies that are pretty, in some cases, greatly reducing their reliance on, say, job boards.

0:12:18.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yes.

0:12:18.5 Joel Cheesman: How has this new reality impacted where you guys spend your money or maybe take money away?

0:12:23.8 Meghan Rhatigan: So for us we've put a lot. So we just... We launched a new employment brand a little over a year and a half ago. Organic traffic is king. I would say that we focus most of our efforts honestly on driving organic traffic just because paid traffic is so freaking, fucking, whatever.

0:12:45.6 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:12:46.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Chad and Cheese. Right? You say that expensive.

0:12:48.4 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:12:48.9 Meghan Rhatigan: And so for us I'm... I think we talked about this the last time, like the SEO thing is a big thing. Paradox actually does a really great job with their career site and SEO in driving that. But organic traffic gets us the best quality candidates. They're the ones who stay the longest. And we're running right now at about 60 to 70% organic traffic, which is really, really, really good.

0:13:11.2 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:13:11.8 Meghan Rhatigan: But we also are Marriott, but it's a very big focus for us.

0:13:15.9 Joel Cheesman: When you say organic, are you actively on Google for jobs?

0:13:20.0 Meghan Rhatigan: No.

0:13:20.4 Joel Cheesman: No.

0:13:20.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Organic means like there are people out there that want to work for us and so they're coming to our site....

0:13:27.7 Joel Cheesman: Directly.

0:13:27.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Marriott.careers.com and they're saying, I want to work here. And they're engaging with Olivia and finding a job. But it's all about awareness too. So we do a lot through like CRM campaigns and silver medalist candidates. And like the second we've got a housekeeping job open we retarget the folks that just applied...

0:13:47.0 Chad Sowash: In your database already?

0:13:48.9 Meghan Rhatigan: In our database. Yeah.

0:13:49.4 Chad Sowash: Because you've already paid for them.

0:13:50.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. We don't... We don't... We don't... We don't buy or subscribe to an external database. We don't need to. We've got 10 million candidates on our own and so we're just...

0:14:00.8 Chad Sowash: Amen sister.

0:14:01.4 Joel Cheesman: Something interesting this morning. I don't know if this is standardized or not, but when I... I did a search on Google for Marriott jobs.

0:14:07.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:14:08.4 Joel Cheesman: Expecting Google for jobs. And it was direct jobs to Marriott, just their jobs.

0:14:13.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Correct. That's...

0:14:13.6 Joel Cheesman: So there were no job boards presented in that search.

0:14:16.2 Meghan Rhatigan: That is right.

0:14:17.2 Joel Cheesman: I don't know if that's something Google's doing more and more of, but they just go directly to you from Google.

0:14:20.6 Meghan Rhatigan: That's right. Yeah, that's... And by the way, it actually took a lot for that experience to happen because originally you would... It was Indeed that was top.

0:14:32.7 Chad Sowash: Oh yeah.

0:14:33.3 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:14:33.4 Chad Sowash: Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:34.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. And then we were second and so we put a lot into making sure Indeed was not top.

0:14:38.0 Joel Cheesman: How did you do that?

0:14:40.2 Meghan Rhatigan: We worked with Paradox and actually did a lot of work on trying to see what was taking away our SEO. And also with Indeed, we do partner with them. We have to, right? They're the 800 pound gorilla. But we've started to pull back on sponsorship quite significantly so that it actually does help our organic SEO so that we don't have as much competing, right?

0:15:08.6 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:15:09.0 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:15:10.4 Meghan Rhatigan: SEO when it comes to job search. So we're like pulling back on the paid so that Indeed doesn't have as much leverage to come on top of us.

0:15:15.3 Joel Cheesman: What an interesting strategy. Reduce job board spend to help your own Google.

0:15:19.4 Meghan Rhatigan: That's right.

0:15:19.9 Joel Cheesman: Traffic.

0:15:20.5 Chad Sowash: Build your own brand. That kind of thing.

0:15:22.9 Joel Cheesman: Yeah. That's fascinating. Okay.

0:15:24.0 Chad Sowash: Well, not to mention, I mean, in... How many candidates do you have in the database?

0:15:28.8 Meghan Rhatigan: 10 million.

0:15:29.7 Chad Sowash: 10 million. So if... I mean, so again, you've already paid for those. And there are so many companies that are literally, as soon as a job opens, they just sprayed out to the Indeeds and the ZipRecruiters and whatnot. And they pay for the same candidates over and over and over and over.

0:15:44.0 Meghan Rhatigan: It's crazy.

0:15:44.8 Chad Sowash: Same ones.

0:15:44.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. And they're... And they're probably bad quality because there's a reason why you didn't hire them in the first place.

0:15:51.5 Chad Sowash: See. So, but I mean, it's the... And we've talked to companies about retargeting and Matt Lavery at UPS. They had to do 150,000 hire or 15,000. 15,000 hires in six weeks. And 30,000 of those were ones that they retargeted. So they didn't have to spend money to get 30,000 of those. And that was like version one. He's like, it's going to get bigger and better. And we're hearing the same thing from companies like... You know, companies using Paradox and Gem and Fountain. And it's like, that seems to be the big cycle where it's like, look, we know what we have. We finally know what we have and we're going to use it. Do you feel the industry is kind of like moving that way quickly?

0:16:38.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:16:39.0 Chad Sowash: Yeah?

0:16:39.4 Meghan Rhatigan: I do. I shouldn't say this because we are an Appcast customer, but I mean I would be worried if I was... If I'm an Appcast of the world, even the Indeeds of the world.

0:16:52.7 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:16:53.4 Meghan Rhatigan: I would be worried because companies like us have figured out and particularly now with the market being the way that it is, we're just like scraping it. Like, give me more candidates, baby, because I'm going to need them one day, but I don't want to pay for them. But it is... It's totally diminishing their relevance in a lot of ways.

0:17:13.3 Chad Sowash: Oh, God. Yeah. Well, okay, so quick question. We've been hearing a lot from like, Chris Forman, former CEO of Appcast and Indeed talking about you're not going to be able to utilize some of these services unless you start giving them disposition data.

0:17:27.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:17:28.2 Chad Sowash: Which to me is total bullshit because it's none of your damn business who I hired. That's not your job. That's my job.

0:17:34.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Right. Right. Well, because they're trying to get into the quality game. Like... So they want our disposition data so that they can put it into their database and be able to put like a quality marker on people.

0:17:45.2 Chad Sowash: Yeah, but if they had good tech in the first place and they knew what the requirements are, they can match those up against the candidates that they have in their database. They're trying to... It feels like they're trying to over engineer a solution so that they can get to your data.

0:18:02.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:18:03.2 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:18:03.3 Chad Sowash: And they're saying, hey, hey, guess what? This is how we fix the problem. It's like, no, it's not. The problem is up funnel, it's not down funnel.

0:18:11.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Right. It's not. No.

0:18:12.6 Chad Sowash: So I would assume that you're hearing a lot of that. Hey, we want the disposition data because it's going to be better for you.

0:18:18.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Right. Well, they... It's not... It's not even disposition data. It's data up and down the funnel.

0:18:24.1 Chad Sowash: Oh yeah.

0:18:24.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Like, they want to see every... They want to see everything. And we're like, no, like it's... You cannot have... Like why would we give that to you?

0:18:35.3 Joel Cheesman: Sure.

0:18:35.8 Meghan Rhatigan: There's no benefit to us in you having it.

0:18:37.2 Chad Sowash: It doesn't make any sense other than they say it's better quality. And I'm like, no.

0:18:42.4 Meghan Rhatigan: That's...

0:18:43.0 Chad Sowash: Better quality is better matching. Go do your job.

0:18:45.2 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:18:46.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Right.

0:18:46.7 Joel Cheesman: So percentage wise, how much less are you spending on sort of traditional job boards?

0:18:52.3 Meghan Rhatigan: We've gone down about 30% this year and I... And I honestly, I want to be at 50% by next year easily.

0:18:59.7 Joel Cheesman: Yeah, 25 to 50 is where a lot of companies are landing, which is interesting.

0:19:04.6 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:19:05.0 Joel Cheesman: So a lot more organic, a lot more quality. What else are you doing organically? I know you guys have a really strong social media footprint. What are you doing organically and other ways to drive traffic and brand awareness.

0:19:16.6 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. So utilizing our CRM, putting out campaigns around... So we've got this whole blog about life at Marriott. So like the realistic job preview, it's a big untapped market, I think, particularly for us in frontline. Like the reason why people quit, like the quick quits happen because they don't... They didn't know what they were getting into with the job. Not because like...

0:19:45.0 Chad Sowash: Expectations.

0:19:45.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Expectations.

0:19:45.6 Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah.

0:19:46.4 Meghan Rhatigan: And so if we... As much as we can do upfront to set the expectations around like what the job is the better off we are because then we've got better quality coming in. People actually know what they're getting into and they're not going to quit. But it also helps us too, from an attraction standpoint to be able to target like, hey, these are the people who actually want a job with us. Like I don't... It's not about volume per se, even though, yeah, we got 10 million candidates. But I actually want the people who have an idea of what it's going to be like, are attracted to that and then apply having already seen some of that content. And so for us, that's really what we're trying to get into is like giving the people the expectation, having those people apply anyway and being able to track those people who see and engage with the content and be able to target those in terms of like who we're actually scheduling for an interview because we know that they want it. Yeah.

0:20:35.2 Chad Sowash: Well, we're starting to see, and we should have known anyway, but we're starting to see that transparency is a superpower.

0:20:41.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

0:20:41.8 Chad Sowash: Because they know what the salary is.

0:20:43.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Right.

0:20:44.7 Chad Sowash: They know what the actual job is like. And we talked about like some of these startups that say, hey look, you're going to work 80 hours a week. And they say that upfront, and that's just so that you don't get in there and then the expectations are, what do you mean I'm going to be working 80 hours a week? Right. So it automatically allows you to self extract...

0:21:02.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Exactly.

0:21:03.4 Chad Sowash: You know, out of the whole process. So I mean it just, it makes more sense. And I mean even though we're... I mean we're looking at Europe and there's some regulations in the States being more transparent. It really feels like we're still moving in that direction. Even though employers have more power now just from the market dynamic, it still feels like we're moving that way.

0:21:24.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah, and I was talking to Joel about this. I've got this idea in my head and I'm really, really excited about it and that's like designing for the disappointed. Because we've got, we spent a lot of time on the 1% meaning like putting our focus on what is our hiring experience for the people who actually get a job. But what about the 99% of people who don't? They're the ones who actually should be... We should be more transparent, transparent with them as to why, like what can they do better and stuff like that. So like totally agree with the transparency and even it's applicable not only to the people who are looking for the job and have an engage, but also the people who maybe got like halfway through the funnel and fell out. Why? Like they, they want to know why. And right now it's like a big black hole and it's a shitty experience for most people. So yeah.

0:22:14.2 Chad Sowash: Don't want that.

0:22:14.9 Meghan Rhatigan: No.

0:22:15.3 Joel Cheesman: And you... Are you guys using anything like Dalia to capture people that aren't...

0:22:19.7 Meghan Rhatigan: No.

0:22:20.1 Joel Cheesman: You're smiling as if you've gotten a pitch from them at some point.

0:22:22.7 Meghan Rhatigan: I have. Interestingly enough, I have. There's a couple...

0:22:25.3 Chad Sowash: I'm sure there aren't many that you haven't gotten a pitch from.

0:22:29.5 Meghan Rhatigan: True.

0:22:29.9 Joel Cheesman: We'll get to vendors in a second.

0:22:31.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Right. Oh gosh. Yeah.

0:22:32.8 Joel Cheesman: But capturing those people...

0:22:34.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:22:34.5 Joel Cheesman: Is something that you're talking about.

0:22:35.9 Meghan Rhatigan: But I... So I see the value and there... In Dalia. And there's, you know, there's a lot of companies who really benefit from them. I think for us, because of our database and the use of our CRM, it's not a need that we have and not an immediate need that we have to layer in an additional provider there. We can just use our CRM and kind of organically engage and keep track of them that way. But I'm not... I don't know. I don't need them quite yet.

0:23:02.8 Chad Sowash: Not there yet.

0:23:03.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Not there yet.

0:23:03.8 Chad Sowash: It's not priority.

0:23:04.9 Meghan Rhatigan: It's not a priority. Yeah.

0:23:05.6 Chad Sowash: What is priority?

0:23:08.2 Meghan Rhatigan: So for us, I would say that it's like, the experience has been a big thing. Our application is still a slog. I want to provide more transparency into our process.

0:23:22.3 Chad Sowash: So why is it still a slog? Because, you know it's a slog.

0:23:25.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah, it's a slog. Because we've got... I would...We're attached to an HCM.

0:23:31.7 Chad Sowash: Okay.

0:23:33.0 Meghan Rhatigan: And the HCMs haven't necessarily put a lot of focus on...

0:23:38.3 Chad Sowash: Experience?

0:23:38.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Their experience. Right. And so for us, it's. It's looking at, is there a layer? Is there, like an overlay? Like, really, that's where my focus on. Like is there an experience layer that I can look at that would go over that ATS that I can't get rid of? I can't get rid of my ATS, but at least I can make my application experience a little bit better. Also, looking at the agent thing is really interesting to me. I'm not... Nobody's quite gotten there yet in terms of their ability to execute, but I'm really excited about agents and what it can do not only for the internal recruiting aspect, but also externally in the candidate experience. Like, it seems as though the agents have really evolved on the consumer side.

0:24:22.9 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:24:23.3 Meghan Rhatigan: But for us, on the HR recruiting side, they're just... They're really frustrating. And if... It's so interesting to me, the dichotomy between an agent that sits on a recruiting tech and how quickly you get to a roadblock there. But then when you engage with an agent that's on the consumer side, it seems... I mean, you can have a 15-minute conversation and not run into a roadblock because like, where are we... What's the gap? So that's... You know, that's... I went on a little tangent there, but it's like real frustrating me. It's like the technology exists.

0:25:02.4 Chad Sowash: Get there.

0:25:02.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Get there.

0:25:03.2 Chad Sowash: Get there. Yes.

0:25:04.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Get there. Yeah. So yeah, experience for me is what I'm focused on between agents and layers and all that. Yeah.

0:25:12.9 Joel Cheesman: Let's get political for a second.

0:25:14.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Oh boy.

0:25:15.4 Chad Sowash: Oh no.

0:25:16.0 Joel Cheesman: Obviously a lot of issues on... That are in the headlines affect you.

0:25:19.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:25:20.3 Joel Cheesman: Immigration, I'm sure you count on a lot of immigrants to do a lot of the jobs at your hotels. The attack on diversity. I know you guys are really focused on a diverse workforce.

0:25:30.0 Meghan Rhatigan: We are. Yep.

0:25:32.1 Joel Cheesman: I don't know if tariffs impact you. Like, what are some of the political topics that impact you guys on a great scale.

0:25:39.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. So from a consumer perspective what we've seen... I mean, we have seen a slight, I mean very slight decline in international travelers, but it's been at kind of within our lower segments. So within our select service brands and what... Like our mid tier brands, our luxury haven't seen any impact really. It's kind of interesting. Like...

0:25:59.9 Chad Sowash: Oh yeah, rich people still have money, right?

0:26:01.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah, rich people still travel.

0:26:02.3 Chad Sowash: It's everybody else, they're like, oh shit.

0:26:05.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Right, what is that? The $10 million visa? Like that... I mean you can go anywhere. But it's... So yeah, it's kind of interesting the divide that we've seen. From a diversity standpoint, we have not changed our stance on diverse hiring, nor will we. We've been committed to that since the very beginning.

0:26:27.3 Chad Sowash: Well, you hire... I mean you... When you hire, like Marriott hires, I mean, you look like the community.

0:26:33.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Exactly.

0:26:34.3 Chad Sowash: You look like the community. Right?

0:26:35.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Exactly.

0:26:36.0 Chad Sowash: So I mean, and I would assume, and I could be really wrong, that that was just blended into just the regular hiring practices anyway.

0:26:44.6 Meghan Rhatigan: It totally is and it's interesting. It's like, yes, of course, like we put focus on our diversity efforts.

0:26:51.7 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:26:52.1 Meghan Rhatigan: But it almost like came organically. Like there was a lot of organic... And that's actually what you want. Like, you know, that's the... The dream. Right?

0:27:02.4 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:27:02.8 Meghan Rhatigan: And so forth us, like we haven't changed it. We don't need to. We have a wonderful diverse workforce and we're going to continue to have one.

0:27:08.2 Chad Sowash: Right.

0:27:08.5 Joel Cheesman: We're at the Unleashed conference And Chad and I've talked to a lot of people. I know you have as well.

0:27:14.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:27:14.8 Joel Cheesman: And my takeaway is there are two schools of thought on the future of recruiting.

0:27:20.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:27:20.9 Joel Cheesman: And I can listen to both of them and agree with both of them.

0:27:23.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:27:24.3 Joel Cheesman: I'll lay them out for you. And I want to get your two cents on this. So one side is today 80% of recruiting can be done with automation, AI, etcetera. And that recruiting as we know it is going to be gone. There will be new jobs created, but what we know of recruiting today is going to be history. History sooner than we think. The other side of it is AI won't take your job. Someone who understands and can utilize AI will take your job and recruiting will just evolve to that reality.

0:27:58.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:27:58.5 Joel Cheesman: Where are you in that argument?

0:28:00.3 Meghan Rhatigan: I think it's both. I don't think it's... I don't think it's one or the other. I think you're going to see a combination depending on the workforce and who the company is hiring. So FedEx is already doing this. Right? So they've completely automated their hiring process for package handlers. Why? Because package handlers don't talk to anyone. They have a requirement to lift and, you know, that's about it. But for us, like we are in the hospitality industry, we have people who talk to guests. And so it's important for us to keep a bit of the human element there. Because we need to know whether or not they smile and they're nice and they're polished and whatever else we look for so that we wouldn't ever offer automate completely. And so we're on the latter camp. But like, there's a lot of other companies that probably would benefit fully and do fine from completely automating everything. So I don't necessarily think it's going to be a world where we see like 100% automation or like or not. It's really going to just depend on the company and at the end of the day, like who they're hiring and what they're looking for.

0:29:11.8 Chad Sowash: Right.

0:29:12.8 Meghan Rhatigan: And the degree of trust that they have in AI, like that's a whole nother thing. Like in the startup world, like they... There's a lot more comfort level with AI and so they're willing to take more risks. Just that's like embedded in who they are. Right?

0:29:27.8 Chad Sowash: Right.

0:29:28.1 Meghan Rhatigan: But for a company like us, it's like well established. Like our risk tolerance is really, really, really low. And so we've... It's funny because we set up this AI Council finally, but it's almost like they're looking for reasons not to use AI.

0:29:44.7 Chad Sowash: Oh yeah.

0:29:45.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Instead of like helping us.

0:29:48.1 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:29:49.1 Meghan Rhatigan: It's like... It's like the... You know.

0:29:50.9 Chad Sowash: Are they a bunch of attorneys? That's the question.

0:29:52.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Exactly.

0:29:53.4 Chad Sowash: Okay, well that's the problem.

0:29:55.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Well, they're... They're part of it. But like, can you really have an AI Council without one? I don't know. But...

0:30:00.3 Chad Sowash: Yeah. Unfortunately you're right.

0:30:02.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. So it's, it's just funny. We have to... It's like the five layers of no that you have to get through.

0:30:08.8 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:30:09.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Before actually introducing something. And so I... That's another part of it too. Like there's a lot of companies that are just never going to get there.

0:30:14.5 Joel Cheesman: Okay. So if I could summarize what you just said.

0:30:17.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:30:17.9 Joel Cheesman: There will be fewer recruiters.

0:30:19.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Yes.

0:30:20.1 Joel Cheesman: Some organizations will go fully automatic.

0:30:22.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:30:23.2 Joel Cheesman: Others, probably because of brand experience or things that humans need to be a part of it will not go fully automatic.

0:30:32.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:30:33.7 Joel Cheesman: I got it. Okay. I like it.

0:30:34.7 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:30:35.0 Chad Sowash: Well, and I like... I like it because we keep getting these black or white options and everything happens in the gray.

0:30:42.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:30:43.2 Chad Sowash: Right? So it's like, depending on like RTO, right?

0:30:47.6 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:30:48.4 Chad Sowash: You're... You had... Your employees had to come to the office anyway. Right? Because they had to come to a hotel. They had to do the job. Right?

0:30:54.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Right. Yeah. Right.

0:30:54.9 Chad Sowash: So you know what the culture is at Marriott now. The question is though, you have to run a steady balance of, yes you can't just hire everybody who comes through the door.

0:31:05.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:31:05.7 Chad Sowash: Right? Because they... Obviously you're a hospitality company, but you also have to be fast because speed kills. Right? And if your competitor gets to them faster, you're done.

0:31:14.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:31:14.4 Chad Sowash: So how do you balance that? That's going to be almost like a high wire act.

0:31:17.9 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. So the way that we go about it is like, honestly, like I have a expectation on my recruiter, so I don't have AI screening. That's not something I've introduced yet. But I have a expectation of my recruiters that they move fast. Like I want them eyes on the application. That's a stacked rank by the way. Like I'm only having them look at qualified people within 24 hours.

0:31:41.2 Chad Sowash: Right.

0:31:41.6 Meghan Rhatigan: And then within that 24 hours, I want an interview request sent out. So interviews should be scheduled within 24 hours of the apply happening because otherwise...

0:31:51.3 Chad Sowash: Oh yeah, they're gone. They're gone.

0:31:52.4 Meghan Rhatigan: They're gone. They're completely gone. But once you get that one hook, like once you get the first engagement, then they're willing to stick with you. But even then from the time that we have that interview reach out to the time the interview is complete, no longer than three days. Like, it cannot be longer than three days. And then we want to get them hired and in the door within a week easily. And I think the biggest opportunity for us, it's like a totally unsexy topic, but freaking background checks take forever.

0:32:23.3 Chad Sowash: Really?

0:32:23.8 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh, God. Yeah.

0:32:26.2 Chad Sowash: Well, it blows my mind because a lot of these people already have background checks, and it's like you would assume that you could kind of have a repository. I know the background check companies are like, no, we want to continue to do more and more and more. But I mean, if that background check or the credentialing could actually stay with the individual and it's good for six months or what have you, you would think that there would be a fucking service for that. Right?

0:32:48.8 Meghan Rhatigan: You would think. Right. Exactly. But there's not. But to your point, that's how background checks make money. Like... You know.

0:32:53.8 Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Well, like everything else, pay per click, they don't want to send you the best quality because they just want fucking clicks. Right?

0:33:00.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Exactly.

0:33:00.1 Chad Sowash: Or pay per app. You're going to get a ton of apps that just aren't qualified. So, yeah, I mean, it's like the model.

0:33:07.2 Meghan Rhatigan: Right. Exactly. Right.

0:33:07.8 Joel Cheesman: Totally. So in light of that.

0:33:09.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah.

0:33:10.6 Joel Cheesman: I know that you use a lot of products. We're here in the Gem booth, which you're a customer of Paradox you mentioned. So you see a lot of products. I'm sure you have a lot of products that you wish existed. A lot of holes that you could fill that aren't out there yet. What would be on your wish list if you could wave a wand for products that you could use today?

0:33:31.3 Meghan Rhatigan: I would say agentic AI that actually works from the standpoint of... Okay. Here's my pipe dream. It's actually looking at the flow of work. Meaning I'm Meghan and I go and I get a job somewhere else. The system knows that I've left it pops up a message to my job. Hey, do you want to replace Meghan?

0:33:57.6 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:33:58.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Yes. Okay, great. The requisition's created, the job's posted. All I said was, yes. Candidates start coming through. They've been screened, they've been vetted, they're scheduled for an interview. I go from yes to interview.

0:34:13.2 Chad Sowash: Yeah.

0:34:13.6 Meghan Rhatigan: I engage, I do my interview. I get another thing. Do you want to send an offer out? Yes. Great. Another yes.

0:34:24.0 Joel Cheesman: Yeah.

0:34:24.5 Chad Sowash: Voice recognition and you're like on your phone and it's like, Meghan, would you like to... Yes.

0:34:31.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Exactly. I want to say yes twice and do an interview, hire someone. Like literally that's like... That's my dream.

0:34:39.4 Chad Sowash: That's... We should buy yestwice.com.

0:34:41.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Yes, exactly.

0:34:42.2 Joel Cheesman: Yestwice.com.

0:34:43.5 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. Do you want to hire and do you want to offer.

0:34:45.5 Chad Sowash: Yestwice.com.

0:34:46.4 Joel Cheesman: There's a billion dollar idea just from that Meghan.

0:34:49.0 Meghan Rhatigan: Exactly.

0:34:51.4 Joel Cheesman: We are live at the Gem booth at Unleash in Las Vegas. Meghan, for those that want to know more about you, maybe apply to a job at Marriott. Where do they go?

0:35:01.1 Meghan Rhatigan: Yeah. So careers.marriott.com. Find me on LinkedIn. Happy to engage, ask questions anytime. But it's been a pleasure gentlemen. Thank you.

0:35:09.7 Joel Cheesman: And these new Ritz-Carlton yacht, big yacht cruises.

0:35:12.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Oh yeah.

0:35:13.3 Joel Cheesman: If you could put in a good word for me, I'd appreciate that.

0:35:14.4 Meghan Rhatigan: Of course. Yeah.

0:35:16.1 Joel Cheesman: I'd appreciate that.

0:35:16.1 Chad Sowash: Don't do it. Don't do it.

0:35:18.1 Joel Cheesman: Chad that is another one in the can.

0:35:20.3 Meghan Rhatigan: Yep.

0:35:21.1 Joel Cheesman: We out.

0:35:21.2 Chad Sowash: We out.

0:35:22.5 OUTRO: Thank you for listening to what's it called? The podcast. The Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses. And not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.