LIVE at iCIMS Inspire
The LIVE onstage energy is back with this performance, complete with two amazing guests, Lauree Porter, Director of HR Systems at PENN Entertainment, and Christy Spilka, Global Head of TA at iCIMS who help the boys cover a wide range of topics that preceded them during a full day of rich content.
The Chad and Cheese take the stage, Joel nearly breaks a hip, hurl some t-shirts, drink some beer, and close out the first day at iCIMS Inspire, which took place Tuesday, May 9th at the Loew's Coronado Resort.
TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level.
Speaker 1: Please welcome back, Shannon [0:00:01.0] ____.
Shannon: All right, I have to get you some fresh air and getting you guys to come back in from that wonderful weather, I'm glad you're here 'cause we're gonna lighten things up with what some call HR's most dangerous podcast and hopefully... Yeah, I see they have beers on hand here, so this won't be your buttoned up HR conversation. Oh no, watch out HR pros, because there's gonna be some honest truth told on this stage today, so without further ado, please join me and welcome the Chad & Cheese podcast.
Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast.
Joel Cheesman: Come on!
Chad Sowash: Give it up. There you go, watch yourself. Watch yourself.
Joel Cheesman: Where's Will?
Chad Sowash: He just threw his shoulder out, Will, thanks.
Joel Cheesman: I think I pulled something.
Chad Sowash: Now I've gotta look for workman's comp, this is crap.
Joel Cheesman: What's up?
Chad Sowash: Good call.
Joel Cheesman: Oh yeah, what's up everybody? If you don't know, ask your parole officer, this is the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman.
Chad Sowash: I'm Chad Sowash.
Joel Cheesman: Joined as always.
Chad Sowash: That's right Chad Sowash.
Joel Cheesman: The Lennon to my McCartney, Chad Sowash is here. And we are excited to welcome to this stage Lauree Porter and Christy Spilka. Give it up everybody.
Chad Sowash: Who wants one? Don't take...
Joel Cheesman: There we go.
Chad Sowash: Don't take mine. Don't take mine.
Joel Cheesman: Yeah, Chad had a special, special one.
Chad Sowash: You guys don't have any? What's going on? This is...
Joel Cheesman: Yeah, ISM said everyone would have one. Sorry about that.
Chad Sowash: I think that was supposed to be at 6:00. I'm not sure.
Joel Cheesman: Can we turn the spotlight down on Chad's head? I don't want him to blind anybody.
Joel Cheesman: By the way is Torin still here? Oh yeah Torin there's a golden girl with missing some glasses, you might wanna return those later. Later in the day. How is it going, ladies?
Lauree Porter: Good.
Christy Spilka: Cheers.
Joel Cheesman: Cheers. Everyone's mad at us 'cause we...
Chad Sowash: Oh that sucks.
Christy Spilka: So is that good?
Chad Sowash: That's delicious.
Joel Cheesman: It's good. That's good beer. That's Nevada finest right there. UNLV grad, by the way, in case anyone wants to know, former cheerleader at UNLV.
Christy Spilka: Go Rebels.
Joel Cheesman: So for those that don't know us this is Chad, I'm Cheese... We're the Chad & Cheese Podcast. If you wanna learn more, go to chadcheese.com. If you haven't gotten a t-shirt at the registration desk, we have every size possible, get your free t-shirt. If you put it on the socials, we'll give you a shout out on the weekly show, how does that sound? Woo...
Chad Sowash: We'll see.
Joel Cheesman: And we'll mention your company maybe get you some free advertising now. For those that don't know, these lovely ladies, let's do a quick Twitter bio before we get into the Q&A, Lauree you can go first.
Lauree Porter: Lauree Porter with Penn Entertainment. I'm the director of HR systems.
Christy Spilka: Hi everyone, I'm Christy Spilka. I am the VP and global head of talent acquisition at iCIMS.
Chad Sowash: Excellent.
Joel Cheesman: So give it up for them. All right, make them feel good.
Chad Sowash: We don't have a lot of time. Let's dig into this. Okay, so we've talked about a lot today, and a lot of it... Well, a good amount of revolving around tech, but there's a lot of noise in the space today dealing with the tech side, dealing with just process automation side, all of it. So Lauree I'll start with you, how do you get through the noise? I mean, you have a lot to deal with, you have a lot of shit to deal with during the day, how do you stay in tune with what's happening or do you? Or can you not? You just have to focus on what you have in front of you.
Lauree Porter: I think it's a combination of both. On a daily basis, yes, I do have to focus on what's in front of me and keeping all the systems running, keeping all our properties happy. As things pop up and initiatives come up with... Whether it's TA or something else, then you have to go out into the market and find what's out there, what's relevant, it's nice that there's so much out there, but it also makes it difficult because there's so many different variables and it's always changing. So what I've seen last year that may have worked well for one circumstance isn't gonna work again this year.
Joel Cheesman: More importantly, how many sales calls do you get a day from vendors?
Lauree Porter: Not many.
Joel Cheesman: Not many?
Lauree Porter: No.
Joel Cheesman: There's a opportunity sales guys and gals out there, their phone ready for your calls.
Lauree Porter: That's one of the beauties of going remote is my office phone no longer exists, so I just have my cell phone and not very many...
Joel Cheesman: So do you rely on friends, colleagues, do you go to...
Chad Sowash: Podcast.
Joel Cheesman: Do you go to podcasts? Do you go to websites where reviews or all the above?
Lauree Porter: Yes. A lot of networking, getting to know people in the industry like today, so later on down the line, if I need something and they're in an industry similar to ours, I know I can reach out to someone and get some information.
Chad Sowash: Christy, same question, I know you have a tech stack, I get it, but not all the... It's not... The whole points they're not all covered always, right. I mean, come on now. So...
Joel Cheesman: I was like where are you going with this?
Chad Sowash: What do you do?
Christy Spilka: A lot actually, I listen to your podcast number one.
Joel Cheesman: Yeah.
Chad Sowash: Brownie points.
Joel Cheesman: Such a suck up. Please.
Chad Sowash: I love it.
Christy Spilka: And of course, I get a lot of information being an iCIMS, especially with Rhea and our Data Insights reports that you guys heard earlier. That's always fabulous. And then outside of that, I'm the board president at ATAP, the Association of Talent Acquisition Professionals, and we do a lot of work there as well to connect the community and really have conversations about what's happening in TA so that we can all support each other as we advance talent acquisition.
Joel Cheesman: So we're the final entertainment for the day. You've been through all of the sessions. What stood out? What blew your mind? What was like... What are your takeaways from the conference so far? Lauree.
Lauree Porter: I would definitely say a lot of what Rhea talked about really rang true. And also surprised me when she talked about how the younger generation is really looking for stability, that really surprised me. I think we were all under the assumption that they weren't, that they're carryover millennials. And so it's really taking a look at who we're hiring and how we need to hire them, so that was great information for me.
Joel Cheesman: Let me piggy back on that before we get to Christy. So you hire everything from a baker to an Android developer. That's a broad spectrum of folks. How do you navigate that? How do you message that? How do you target those different audience?
Joel Cheesman: Make sense of it for us.
Chad Sowash: Yeah.
Lauree Porter: Well, I think the thing to remember is that there's gotta be a general process that everyone can somehow customize that works for them. So where a property may have one process when they have a lot of front-line openings, the team that's hiring for vice presidents has a different process, but the basic steps along the way are still within a standard process.
Joel Cheesman: Christy your take aways from the show.
Christy Spilka: So many. It was a great day. Right everybody, amazing speakers.
Joel Cheesman: Awesome give it up for iCIMS.
Christy Spilka: So many takeaways, I love hearing about CXM coming from Al. I'm really excited about that. I think the ability to pipeline our talent and engage our talent and build those healthy and diverse talent pipelines is more critical than ever, it's always been important, and it's ever more so. So I'm really excited about that. The interesting facts we heard from Rhea today on the data insights report, that was interesting. And what we also found is over the last three years, the difference in compensation between the expectation of early grads and what HR professionals are looking to pay actually was smaller a few years ago, increased rapidly and then has compressed again. So I found that to be pretty interesting and Torin always gives a great, a great talk.
Chad Sowash: Takes us to church, all the time.
Christy Spilka: Amazing. Always. So inspiration also overall, just a fabulous day today.
Chad Sowash: So you have the inevitable position where you get to use all this tech that iCIMS has at your disposal, and I assume even start testing some things and getting feedback or giving feedback on stuff that's going on. Not everyone has all those tools. So if you could break down everything from texting to video, to custom messaging, what are a few things that employers should definitely look at doing, what are the tools are invaluable to you getting the right people in those seats?
Christy Spilka: Oh my gosh, I think we're gonna need a couple of hours to hit that topic, but...
Chad Sowash: We're gonna extend, we're extending. We need more beer.
Lauree Porter: We'd be cutting into happy hour.
Christy Spilka: To break it down to a few things, I think your applicant tracking system is really important, and looking at the way that you're creating efficiency, looking at the way that you're creating engaging experiences with candidates that are coming through the process. Monitoring that candidate experience, we heard earlier in the session today that we're worried about what's gonna happen in candidate experience with some of the layoffs that we've seen. So really looking at how you can ensure that you've got quality there is gonna be really important. Video is always amazing. I know we've talked about video recently, we use video a lot in our internal TA team, we have it on our career site, we just did a whole career set refreshed by the way, so check us out icims.com. But we have it in all of our nurture campaigns too, so going into your CRM and creating email campaigns with a video, that's really going to set you apart. We heard one of our customers earlier talking about the importance of that and creating those experiences to really highlight their culture, I think that's gonna be critical as well.
Joel Cheesman: So talk about... It sounds like iCIMS has almost like an internal Skunk Works that's happening, right? And you would be perfect and your team are perfect to lead that, I'm sure Lauree is very envious. Talk a little bit about that because you're building products, obviously for yourselves, but something that you can actually productize for the entire market. Talk a little bit about that and how you guys impact the build to actual technology and future technologies and processes.
Christy Spilka: Yeah, it's definitely a part of my job that I love. I've been a customer for more than nine years, so it was a big iCIMS fan, even before I came to work for iCIMS, I've implemented three times over numerous companies. And so I've got a good amount of experience in leveraging our products and our team gets to all be a part of customer zero at iCIMS where we get to give feedback to the product team. I have the chance to sit down with Al and talk about, "Oh, what's coming up this year, and what are we working on? And let's talk about some of the feedback from our internal talent acquisition team." All of our team members have the opportunity to participate in that, and it's been great to be a customer zero and help to have those conversations.
Joel Cheesman: Lauree, you were just talking about the ability... Really to be able to somewhat customize the process, because obviously high volume is different than executive, etcetera, etcetera, but you're also looking at a very fluid market, the landscape is changing all the time. We're talking about how the economy... We have no clue that's doing one week, next week, first part of the week, second part of the week, so how do you plan for that next change? How can you be nimble? Is it really hard with today's tech? Or is it much easier than it has been in the last few years?
Lauree Porter: I will say with iCIMS, it does make it a lot easier because I do have the capability to make a lot of changes on the fly when I want to, when I get feedback from different properties or different recruiters that just say, "This isn't working, or how can we fix this, or I wanna do this," I can go in and do it myself. I can play with it, I can test it. They can test it out and say, "Okay, it does work, it's working better. Can we change this? Can we change that?" So it's really just working with the users out there, getting their feedback and testing things out, seeing, does this work? How can we make it better?
Joel Cheesman: Fortunately, in the gaming industry, they're used to taking risks and doing things that aren't normal for most people.
Chad Sowash: Very heavily regulated.
Joel Cheesman: Yes.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. DE&I was a focal point of today's content. What are each of you doing in terms of targeting diverse communities, bringing more people into the fold? I'll let Christy start because I know that we talked about it earlier.
Christy Spilka: Yeah, we do a lot of work in this area. Like I said earlier, we put a really big focus with our career site refresh on making sure that we had videos that we're representing our culture and who we are as an organization, and our focus on DE&I. We actually created a whole new page on our website as well, in the career site, to talk about the focus that we have in that area. We do a lot of work, we leverage a third party as well to help us ensure that we have inclusive job postings. So every single one of our job postings before it goes up on our career site, it gets a score, and anything below a 95% score is not getting on our career site, so we take that really seriously. We have...
Joel Cheesman: Is that an internal tool that's built into iCIMS.
Christy Spilka: Third party.
Joel Cheesman: Third party, okay.
Christy Spilka: And we do a lot of work with, we leverage performance-based hiring, we have what we call alignment meetings rather than intake meetings, where we're really aligning on the opportunity. What are the critical things this person is going to do to be successful in this role? And then we really help partner with our hiring managers on what are those things that the candidate should bring to the table, and what are those areas where maybe we can train someone. So it's a really... It's a very inclusive process, and we're very thoughtful on the approach all the way through the entire hiring process.
Joel Cheesman: She says third party tool, I say future acquisition, am I right, Al?
Christy Spilka: They're testing it, they're testing it.
Chad Sowash: Where's my M&A people? Yeah.
Lauree Porter: So very similar to what Christy and iCIMS is doing, it's a non-stop ongoing evolution of things that you need to look at, and I think someone brought up today that it doesn't stop when someone's hired, and I think that's something you have to remember. It's not just at the hiring process, yes, you have things in place to look at who you're hiring and how you're hiring them, and metrics to report on that, but it's also important to think long-term as far as what does everyone have to contribute to the organization whether it be leadership programs or further development programs, making sure all of those are inclusive as well.
Chad Sowash: Let's jump into the hard conversation, so generative AI, everybody loves it. They're playing with ChatGPT blah, blah, blah, right. The thing is, it can be very helpful from the efficiency standpoint, but as a Al Smith would say, there's a lot of poo out there, that's a quote from Al.
Joel Cheesman: His mom is so proud of him for using that language.
Chad Sowash: But also taking the behavior that us humans have, which is incredibly biased, and one thing that AI can do is scale much better than any human can do. So as you're looking at future scope, there's a lot of risk, but there's also a lot of reward. How do you guys approach that? I'll go to you first, Lauree.
Lauree Porter: So I know you mentioned the gaming industry likes to take risks...
Joel Cheesman: Some I heard not that I would know first hand...
Lauree Porter: In the casino? Yes. When it comes to systems and processes like that with the risks, that's probably something we'd be in the background for and wait and see what happens, there's a lot of risk, like you said, for inaccurate messages that we wouldn't want to get out there. Especially when it comes to gaming because we are so heavily regulated, so for me, it's really early, and we'll think about it later.
Joel Cheesman: You're a fast follower. Is that right? Fast follower.
Lauree Porter: I wouldn't say fast. Really, we wanna see what happens with others that are in similar industries before we jump all in.
Joel Cheesman: Christy.
Christy Spilka: From an AI perspective, I go back to Al's conversation earlier. He talked about being human lead and some of the principles that we focus on at iCIMS as it relates to AI, and I think a big part of that too is to use the words that he shared as well, having that co-pilot, having that human loop is going to be really important as we embark on this.
Joel Cheesman: Background checks were mentioned in Johnny Taylor's presentation, which I didn't really come in thinking that would be a topic, but then when I think about how detailed your background checks need to be... And I look at social media and what's going on there, we gotta say at least Tiktok wants in our presentation of what's going on. How do you guys look at background checks specifically, not just the state and county records, but beyond that with what people are doing online, and whatnot?
Lauree Porter: I think it depends on the position. A background checks are definitely a necessity, a lot of our locations actually require licensing. So if you can't pass the background check, you can't get licensed, you can't work for us. So it's not something that we can be too flexible on when it comes to those situations, but depending on the position that someone's in, it depends on the level of background check that we'll go through.
Joel Cheesman: So the baker is not as detailed as...
Lauree Porter: Head of finance.
Joel Cheesman: Head of finance, sure. Thanks for saving me on that one, Christy.
Christy Spilka: We follow the requirements in that area of the world, and our own internal guidelines and conduct background checks according to that.
Joel Cheesman: Do you look at social media content and what people are putting out there?
Christy Spilka: Me? No.
Joel Cheesman: No, that's interesting.
Chad Sowash: On the record no.
Joel Cheesman: They're always listening.
Christy Spilka: I've seen what you guys are doing on social media, that's about it.
Chad Sowash: Not like you would ever hirer us, I mean come on.
Joel Cheesman: We don't need mean background checks.
Christy Spilka: Or you wouldn't be here.
Joel Cheesman: We have our parole officers and our ankle bracelets.
Chad Sowash: So process efficiency. We were talking about application. The application process, heard stats earlier. Needs to be less than five minutes. That's awesome. But also over half of the applications are coming via mobile, so are we just trying to take the mobile process make it shorter or the desktop process make it shorter, put it on mobile? Are we really going to engage with chat bots and look at asynchronous apply as well? Lauree I'll go with you.
Lauree Porter: So a few years back, we actually did look at our application process and we saw that 50% were coming from mobile and that a large number of them were dropping off at certain points. So we sat down, we said, "What do we need to know? Now, what's the initial things... " And we cut out at least 50% of the job of the application questions. Cut out any forms. Cut out anything that I could ask you later. What do I need to make a decision there?
Chad Sowash: How hard was that? Were you the determining factor of that, or did you have to go...
Lauree Porter: I was not, I had recommendations, but I worked with our TA team because ultimately they're the ones using the system, I knew what I thought, but I did work with them. The hardest part, I think, was coming to a consensus and getting everyone to agree on what are those critical questions.
Chad Sowash: How long did that process take?
Lauree Porter: Well, it got delayed by a little thing that happened in 2020...
Chad Sowash: Oh, okay. That'll do it.
Lauree Porter: But overall, it's something that I also did at my previous company, so I knew the process, and actually there's someone in here, maybe Jamal, if he's in here, he helped me with my previous company when went through that, and so he really helped me set the ground work for this next time that I did it. So it could have been done very quickly, but it was pandemic consensus, it's always not the top priority until it is the top priority, and it became the top priority when then we had to bring people back after the pandemic, and we need to get them in fast. How can we do that? And I'm like, "Guess what... "
Chad Sowash: So Christy, you're part of the Skunk Works...
Joel Cheesman: Can I jump in here reall quick before we get... So I think this is an important point you mentioned...
Chad Sowash: Of course you think it's an important point.
Joel Cheesman: Well, obviously a lot of people agree with me, so the pre-screening questions where you lost people in the process of mobile when you looked at it. Because certain ATSs not this one that we're at currently have a bad reputation of a bad mobile experience on their ATS. So I just wanna get to a point where the pre-screening questions were, where you got the point of people left and how you fix that to keep them going through the final destination.
Lauree Porter: For us a lot of it was that we had an i-form as the application, and so if you're on a mobile device, it's not as mobile-friendly. So we took out the questions that we needed to ask and just built it into the profile and got rid of the form.
Joel Cheesman: Got it.
Lauree Porter: So if you were on a desktop or a mobile device, you're still answering the same questions and you actually got a better experience on the mobile device.
Joel Cheesman: Cool.
Chad Sowash: Gotcha. So on the skunk works side of the house.
Christy Spilka: Customer zero.
Chad Sowash: Huh?
Christy Spilka: Customer zero.
Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah customer zero, I like skunk works better. Sounds great. So are you using... Are you thinking about using async chat to be able to go through application process, because somebody could be applying on the bus and then they have to get off on their stop, then they wait till they get home, and then they finish the application? What are you guys doing? What are you guys doing internally? Customer zero.
Christy Spilka: Yeah, I know we heard in Al's conversation earlier talking about this with our chatbot and some of the work that we're doing there, so absolutely, we plan to adopt that and leverage that to have a fast apply process, and like you said, iCIMS... We're great with the mobile application experience already, and internally, we make sure that we have a really fast process for people to apply as well. And we can track that, which is great, and the ATS, I can see exactly what my drop-off rate is at any given time, how long it's taking to apply and having that data at your fingertips is really critical.
Chad Sowash: So what about other things like onboarding and being able to take that chat process to onboarding and async or maybe even synchronous. Yeah.
Christy Spilka: No, I think that's great. I think that's very interesting, and we also leverage video studio, video, and all different things to keep people engaged through a process as well, to ensure that we have a very low drop-off rate during the onboarding process.
Joel Cheesman: Up-skilling is a hot topic now. People would rather grow talent in-house as opposed to the recruiting because that's more and more challenging, talk about opinions on up-skilling from your company's perspective, what you guys are doing on up-skilling strategy and maybe what you're looking to do in the future. Lauree.
Lauree Porter: So we've always had a pretty strong internal transfer process, and I think that's a form of up-skilling where you can look to grow in other areas of the business, and so that's always out worked well. We've also increased the talent and development offerings for those who want to grow, whether it's in or outside, whether it's the mentoring program, so we've really tried work on a diverse number of options as far as people who wanna grow.
Joel Cheesman: Is it in-house, is it third party?
Christy Spilka: It's in-house.
Joel Cheesman: In-house.
Chad Sowash: To talk about the internal mobility, 'cause most companies... It's now a new buzzword, internal mobility. Yeah, let's take care of our people. Let's move people through. Talk about that. Talk about...
Joel Cheesman: Horrible.
Chad Sowash: Yeah, I know, I mean, we're losing people. How is that happening? I don't know. They... Talk about that, did you see attrition happening, you're like," We know this is an issue," or was this just a part of the culture from day one?
Lauree Porter: It's always been a part of the culture. We always look internally, especially when it comes to our upper level positions, we're always gonna look internally at who's been with us, who's been working for us and performing for us. We know exactly who they are and what they can do. Let's go to them first before we go to externally, even if it is moving them across country.
Joel Cheesman: Let's talk about work from home, remote work real quickly, you have a lot of employees that can't work from home, I assume probably aside from tech, and you can tell me where the remote is and where they're not. You on the other hand, probably can go almost totally remote if you want to, so you first, talk about the challenges of remote work, where does Penn stand on hybrid versus back to the office versus remote, and then the advantages that you have in a work-from-home environment that others don't.
Speaker 1: So I think Penn not I think, I know pen is very flexible. So it comes down to what does the business need. So if in our interactive division, they are all remote or there's a small number that needs to be in the office, there is no black and white as far as who needs to be remote and who doesn't. It's really about what the business needs, what the leader needs, what they're comfortable with.
Joel Cheesman: So does the manager decide what the team... At what level is it decided where you could be remote or not, or hybrid or what days you come in? Who decides that?
Lauree Porter: I'd say leader of that area.
Joel Cheesman: Okay, manager.
Lauree Porter: But not like... Like the GM can't say that at my property we can all be remote...
Joel Cheesman: There's been no CEO mandate of saying "We're all hybrid or we're all... " It's at the ground level of what the team needs to do...
Lauree Porter: Yeah, the message has always been that he trusts his leaders, and so they've decided for themselves what they thought worked best.
Joel Cheesman: And was that decided from the top down, or did you ask your employees what would you prefer to do and they told you and then you adapted that?
Lauree Porter: It was both.
Joel Cheesman: It was both.
Lauree Porter: We did have conversations, town halls, where we talked about it. He heard feedback from everyone, including his leaders.
Joel Cheesman: That's great.
Lauree Porter: Yeah.
Joel Cheesman: Christy.
Christy Spilka: So I think even in some of the data we saw today, flexibility is really important for people having the opportunity to have hybrid in many cases, because a lot of folks like remote and a lot of folks like on-site and many enjoy hybrid work as well. And so I think there's no really one-size-fits-all approach. One of the things that we did a while back on our career site and internally is we added that as a column when you're searching for a job so that you understand exactly the work type of that position, which has been really helpful as well. 'Cause I think transparency is also really important when people are looking for jobs, they wanna know what that's going to look like for them.
Joel Cheesman: And does the new hrjobs.icims.com site have remote or not remote in the job posting?
Christy Spilka: That's a really good question. We're gonna have to check that out. We'll give some feedback of customer zero...
Joel Cheesman: By the way talking about this site I'm thinking what a great sales tool. Think about all the HR people that they can sell iCIMS from the site. Sorry, I'm cynical, I'm cynical.
Chad Sowash: Sales jobs.icims.com.
Joel Cheesman: HR jobsite.
Chad Sowash: I think I've seen this before, I think I've seen this before. So $85 trillion in lost revenue because positions aren't getting filled, why are we not taking this to the C-Suite and giving more budget so that we can get better tech stack, so they can get better resources? Are we finally getting the data that we need to start making the business case? 'Cause we've been talking about cost per hire forever, and CEOs don't even know what the hell that is, and they don't care, because that's not something they can sell to their board. But they can sell this number, it's huge, so do you feel like all these data points are finally coming together for us as an industry so that we can sell it and we can start to be at the big table and talk about the big discussions?
Christy Spilka: 100% and how often have you gone to a conference or listened to something online and hear people talk about putting together a business case for investment or whatever, like... We don't talk about it enough, I don't think. I think it's a really important topic. It'll actually be in plug check out my career site session tomorrow, where I will be going through putting together a business case to get investment in your career site, but I do think the data that was shared today is amazing. Jot that down, bring that back to the business, because ultimately, that is how we can continue to get investment, I've done that in my own various organizations over the years in TA to say, "Here's what I'm looking to do, here's why it's important. And here's the value that we'll get back as an organization,"
Lauree Porter: And I think we're getting there because the leaders are seeing the effects, you don't necessarily have to show them the actual dollar amount, they're actually seeing the effects in not being able to do things. And this hasn't really affected us, but how many businesses do you see that can't open on Monday because they can't hire people. Well, if you had maybe more resources to hire people, maybe you could get people in there. So people are now seeing the actual effects of it, not only the dollar amounts.