Phenom Shops, OpenAI Jobs, & Boomband Launches

Euro Chad has landed, and HR’s Most Dangerous Podcast is in full send. 🇵🇹This week, Chad & Cheese rip into OpenAI flirting with ads, jobs, and half-million-dollar salaries (what could possibly go wrong?), Phenom shopping for AI relevance, Meta quietly pulling the plug on the Metaverse, and Jeff Taylor returning to the job board battlefield with Boom Band.

Add in Delta’s $1.3B profit-sharing sugar high, geopolitical mic drops from Canada, Indiana football miracles, and enough AI skepticism to power a small country. Is this innovation… or a house of cards wobbling in public?

Strap in. 🎙️🔥

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:33.966)

People say we look like MC Hammer on crack Humpty. Hey kids, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your cohost Joel. Nostalgia is not a strategy Cheesman.

Chad Sowash (00:44.931)

This is just call me Euro Chad. Sowash.

Joel Cheesman (00:48.866)

And on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, Phenom goes shopping, OpenAI goes jobbing, and Jeff Taylor goes launching. Let's do this.

Chad Sowash (01:01.997)

Just hope it's not a premature launch. The girls, they hate that. They hate the premature launch. That's what I've heard. That's what I've heard. That's what I've heard.

Joel Cheesman (01:04.236)

You're... Free.

Not a problem I'm familiar with, Chad. Sounds like you're speaking from experience.

Chad Sowash (01:13.945)

Just have to know just in case. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:16.258)

That's right. I can poke fun because you're Euro Chad now and nothing phases you. You are bulletproof, geopolitical issues don't phase you anymore. You're cool hand Luke now that you're Euro Chad and I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

Chad Sowash (01:26.799)

Portugal hasn't tried to colonize another country in a very long time. So we learned, yeah, we learned our lessons. we're just backed off and chilled.

Joel Cheesman (01:35.467)

It's been a while.

Joel Cheesman (01:39.308)

Yeah. And you could argue we got America out of the last time that they did it. So we should probably stay away from future, future endeavors. how, how are you? You weren't on the show where you're in route. Like how'd the move go? How are the dogs like give us a state of Chad.

Chad Sowash (01:51.672)

Yeah.

Yeah. Let me tell you about last week. Jesus. So Julie flew out, flew to Europe on Tuesday. The dogs were out on Wednesday, had dinner with friends that night, closed the house on Thursday, had dinner with you and the fam that night. That was wonderful. and was on a plane on Friday to Portugal and the logistics ridden anxiety leading up to that crazy week was literally unbearable for anybody who was around me more than normal.

Joel Cheesman (02:07.374)

Yep, yep.

Joel Cheesman (02:21.71)

Mm-hmm. Wow.

Chad Sowash (02:22.639)

And so apologies to anyone and everyone, even you Mr. Cheeseman, who had to deal with me any time before January 15th, because I was a fucking mess guy. I was mess.

Joel Cheesman (02:36.248)

So your quote at dinner was, I've never been so stressed out as I've been in this move and I've been shot at before. So just to frame the stress that Chad was going under, bullets under fire, not as stressful as the week that he had apparently moving.

Chad Sowash (02:51.847)

Yeah, to be fair in the comparison, I was 18 and done back then. Might react a little differently now, but yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (02:57.458)

You're just 54 and dumb. Big difference. Big, big difference. Yeah, we're all still 18 year olds. So you might've missed it. So here's what happens. You leave the state and the college football team wins a national title and Europe's at war with America. So I blame you for everything good going on and bad going on. But did you catch the game? Did you see the Hoosiers get it done?

Chad Sowash (03:05.241)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (03:14.561)

You

Chad Sowash (03:20.431)

I did get to see the highlights. mean, that's one of the things that was on here like zero dark 30 in the morning and that's fine. I'll catch the highlights. But woke up to a win, which I thought was going to happen in the first place. I mean, they had been playing lights out all year. And as a guy, an Ohio State fan who's married to a beautiful lady who went to IU. Yeah, I've been taking it in the shorts ever since.

Joel Cheesman (03:33.709)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (03:47.202)

Yeah, and my wife works for the Indiana University ecosystem. So yeah, she was very excited. Yeah. Anyway, that's just silly to me.

Chad Sowash (03:51.235)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (03:55.949)

Someone else who does not like Ohio State.

Real quick, real quick before I forget though, before I forget, last week you guys talked about Textio CEO change. And I had two cents that I wanted to throw in because we called Textio toast when OpenAI entered the frame a couple of years back. And now this just blew my mind. Two Textio founders leave right before launching a brand new product. And then, and then the CFO

Joel Cheesman (04:21.047)

Uh-huh.

Chad Sowash (04:30.753)

a bean counter is installed as the CEO, much like I felt like this is almost like a career builder move when they installed Jeff Furman, a facilities guy as a yes man. Yeah, I mean, he not he was yes, man and CEO, by the way. But this could be even worse for textio than the dumpster fire we know as career builder, because a CFO not that Jeff knew but the CFO

Joel Cheesman (04:42.254)

And Irena, before that, Irena was a bean counter too.

Joel Cheesman (04:53.763)

Hmm.

Chad Sowash (05:00.759)

As you had said, that doesn't scream innovation. It doesn't scream revenue or product growth. It screams, tighten the belt and get the life preservers ready. So I thought that was interesting. I want to just call back to that. I thought you nailed it. Putting a CFO in charge at this stage of a startup, man, that just sends off alarm bells.

Joel Cheesman (05:04.514)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:25.026)

Yeah, we have some hidden footage from the meeting with investors that they had after the CEO change.

you

Joel Cheesman (05:37.678)

I love it when we get the attention of these companies that have a lot more money than we do. Power the mic, man. Power the mic. What was it, the old adage, don't pick fights with people who buy ink by the barrel. We've got reach. We've got reach people. And we've been around a while, so we know a few things. Do you think Indiana keeps it going? you think this whole, because we had Michigan, Ohio State, and Indiana. Does the Big Ten continue to roll? Does the SEC get their act together?

Chad Sowash (05:38.496)

shit.

Chad Sowash (05:50.734)

Mmm, yeah.

Chad Sowash (05:54.542)

slow bit.

Chad Sowash (06:00.931)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (06:06.253)

I think what has happened is the portal has changed everything and I love it because now the kids have a chance to actually move. And what happened was, and we had talked about how everybody who was in the college football playoffs, Indiana had the least amount of four star and five star players. One thing that they didn't say is Indiana had the oldest roster.

Joel Cheesman (06:08.302)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (06:29.677)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (06:29.935)

in the football playoffs. They had more seniors, fifth year seniors and whatnot. instead of having quote unquote talent, they had experience, right? So I think from a talent standpoint, that is such a great framing. It's like, yeah, Indiana has never played good football, right? The portal now is changing everything. And now people can look at Signiti's way of actually, you know,

Joel Cheesman (06:33.389)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (06:39.554)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (06:57.583)

pulling people in. think it's going to be a lot harder to pull people away from IE right now. But yeah, mean, again, experience fucking rules and that at least in this game definitely shows.

Joel Cheesman (07:05.806)

Yeah.

If you have a coach and a quarterback, you can move mountains. and this was, this was no, no different. mean, you and I growing up Indiana football was a punchline and they had, people that don't like football or watch us like have no, they showed a photo here locally of signetis first game coaching. Typical sort of IU fan base playing, you know, the old woman's, the old folks home from Louisiana, whatever, and nobody in the stands. And then you look at the national.

Chad Sowash (07:17.66)

yeah. Hoosiers, baby. Football. Basketball.

Chad Sowash (07:27.524)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (07:38.094)

title game, which is in Miami, who they're playing, and they overrun the place with fans in red. So it was a cool moment.

Chad Sowash (07:40.633)

Yes, yes.

Chad Sowash (07:47.431)

They had the fans literally drowning out the Miami offense in Miami. That to me just blew me away because I thought when they played Oregon that, okay, yeah, they definitely can have that happen, but there's no way they can do that in Miami because Miami is the home team. Nope, they fucking did it.

Joel Cheesman (07:57.666)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (08:08.3)

Yeah, and Miami has a long history, you know, football program back to the 80s of success. Pretty, pretty amazing. Shout out to a coal cheeseman, a freshman at Indiana, who I know who, who doesn't respond to texts that quickly these days, because I think he's having a really good time on Kirkwood and enjoying everything. But yeah.

Chad Sowash (08:14.275)

Yeah. Crazy.

Talent.

Hahaha

Chad Sowash (08:25.839)

I bet. I bet. Leave that boy alone.

Joel Cheesman (08:33.72)

So between geopolitical disaster, which we'll get to, it's kind of a, feel good story. Go figure Indiana. got Rudy comeback story underdog. got breaking away underdog Hoosiers. And now we have like the Indiana football team. can't wait to see the Netflix movie.

Chad Sowash (08:42.169)

Love it.

Chad Sowash (08:50.831)

Yeah, I love it, dude. I love it.

Joel Cheesman (08:52.888)

Yeah, good stuff, good stuff.

Chad Sowash (08:56.482)

It is Stephen.

Joel Cheesman (08:56.622)

So keeping with that trend, my shout out goes to, and it's been a while, Chad.

Chad Sowash (09:03.343)

Hmm?

Joel Cheesman (09:10.254)

All right, Chad, I'm not saying Chipotle is the reason that Indiana won a title, but I'm not not saying that it wasn't either. So coach Kurt Signetti in an interview with the Wall Street Journal pointed to the fact that he eats Chipotle every day when he's not on the road or whatever.

That's a lot of Chipotle. I love Chipotle. You need a lot of Chipotle. That's a lot of Chipotle. he is, and Chipotle did some research on this. He is in the 1 % of Indiana customers for Chipotle because you become a loyal fan or loyalist and you get points and you get free stuff. So to put this in context, he now has over 64,000 Chipotle points or whatever they call them.

Chad Sowash (09:33.455)

That is.

Chad Sowash (09:43.887)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (09:47.631)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:59.476)

I have about 17,000 and I love Chipotle. So Kurt Signetti is a super Chipotle freak and I'm here for it. I'm here for it. So he got the attention of Chipotle. You should look forward to Chipotle commercials. You won't get them in Europe, but I'll show them on the show if they get launched. I'm hoping that they don't have the Signetti bowl.

Chad Sowash (10:08.559)

Dude.

Joel Cheesman (10:24.366)

If you're, if you're a Chipotle fan, you know that like the Olympics is coming. They have certain athletes and they have their signature bowls. His bowl. Get this is beans, rice, chicken, and guacamole. Come on, man. Put some cheese on that motherfucker. Sal, like put some chip, put some Picante, put something on there, man. Put some salsa. But anyway, it's, uh, it, it, apparently it apparently works. So shout out to a Chipotle and, you know,

Chad Sowash (10:28.259)

Yeah, signature bowl. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (10:39.897)

Basic. Basic, baby.

Joel Cheesman (10:53.934)

Kurt Signati, gotta love you. Gotta love the Chipotle. Gotta love the Chipotle. Love it.

Chad Sowash (10:55.341)

Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you talk about spicy, my shout out goes to, you won't see this coming Canada. That's right. Shout out to Mark Carney up in the great white North. That's right. So did you listen to Carney's speech at Davos this week?

Joel Cheesman (11:05.772)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (11:15.864)

Dude, I'm married to a Canadian. literally woke up, cause she's an early riser. I literally woke up to tech saying that Canada dropped the mic on the world today and that's what I was waking up So yes, I've seen the Carney speech and I have my two cents, but go ahead.

Chad Sowash (11:18.095)

You

Chad Sowash (11:26.615)

OK. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (11:32.227)

Well, listener, if you haven't go to YouTube, just search for Carney and Davos speech. OK. But why a shout out? Because he's saying out loud what everyone else is afraid to say. And it's fucking refreshing. Also, I want to make a point to add to one of my twenty twenty six predictions in our space around this. But before that, I want to go ahead and roll that beautiful bean footage.

Joel Cheesman (11:50.531)

Mm-hmm.

You got it.

Joel Cheesman (12:03.022)

That's good.

Chad Sowash (12:50.127)

So my favorite part, which you definitely keyed up on is the middle powers must work together because if they're not at the table, we're on the menu, right? And my parallel to this is, go figure, has to do with an industry power hungry economic hegemony, which we know is indeed. So I'm gonna go ahead and here's a twist or addition to my 2026 prediction around agencies.

Joel Cheesman (12:51.758)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:00.195)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:09.08)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:18.594)

Okay.

Chad Sowash (13:19.841)

What I see is that if mid-sized agencies don't work together to get a seat at the table, then they're already on Indeed's menu. As Indeed demands agencies not to speak with each other and share details of their contract negotiations, keeping them off balance and alone, these competitors who normally don't look to one another for strength, they have to. It's imperative they have to look to one another for strength. So adding

into my 2026 prediction for two weeks ago, I missed one possible path for agencies beyond acquisition enclosures. So I'm adding recruitment ad agencies merging into the fray. Because if many of these agencies try to go it alone, they're definitely gonna be eaten alive.

Joel Cheesman (14:09.454)

Well said, well said, Chad Sowash. Yeah, this was, you know, there aren't a lot of statesmen around anymore. Trump is not, I mean, like, Trump does not invoke the powers of Abe Lincoln by any means or any other oratorical president. He's not Winston Churchill. Like, throughout history, we're not at a time of mental giants running things, and it's really refreshing that Mark.

Chad Sowash (14:10.659)

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Mark Carney. He made me think of it. I'm thinking, wait a minute.

Chad Sowash (14:19.171)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (14:28.121)

more like the three stooges.

Joel Cheesman (14:39.79)

Carney comes up and delivers really a nice punch to the gut. didn't mention Trump by name, but everyone sort of knew who he was referring to. May you live in interesting times. I was worried that we'd go live without hearing Trump's speech, which we're recording this on Wednesday. He went this morning. The good news is he mentioned we're not going to invade Greenland.

turn the temperature down a little bit. The markets are okay. The world didn't go on fire today and I was afraid that we'd miss a moment to talk about that. But yeah, we live in very interesting times, very interesting times.

Chad Sowash (15:18.207)

the market dump yesterday, he did not want that to happen again. He did not want that.

Joel Cheesman (15:21.612)

Well, one to 2 % is a dump. don't know. That's debatable. If it was 10 to 20, I'd say that was a real shit. Well, enough to buy Greenland, apparently. There was news that the market lost enough to buy Greenland, if that was the case. So anyway, yeah. Anyway, let's get to some free stuff, shall we?

Chad Sowash (15:28.047)

How many billion were lost? was not. Yes! Yes!

Chad Sowash (15:39.887)

Well, don't have to buy stuff on Chad and Cheese. You get free stuff.

Chad Sowash (16:07.321)

Why does he blend in with his background?

Joel Cheesman (16:10.434)

I mentioned the background last week. Yeah, he does match the background.

Chad Sowash (16:12.11)

Did you?

Chad Sowash (17:00.313)

Free stuff, baby, free stuff.

Joel Cheesman (17:01.39)

Speaking of geopolitics, Stephen and I message each other quite a bit and he asks sort of America's take on this or sort of what's your objective. And he says that Europe is basically calling Trump Hitler and that this is 1938. So for whatever that's worth, we have a dialogue about that. Anyway, it's wonderful that the world.

the world can communicate in certain ways. But yes, his background is sort Art Deco Scottish style. I don't know what to make of the...

Chad Sowash (17:33.839)

But it's the same color as like his complexion. mean, it's almost like Stephen camouflage to some extent.

Joel Cheesman (17:40.022)

It's like he walked into an Ikea and said, can you match this? And showed him himself and they, they, delivered. They delivered big time, big time.

Chad Sowash (17:48.109)

And they did. They did. They did. You know who else delivers? Shaker recruitment marketing. That's right. Our travel sponsor delivers. And if you're looking...

Joel Cheesman (17:52.28)

Who, Chad?

Chad Sowash (17:59.407)

If you're looking for a well diversified and experienced recruitment marketing ad agency that goes beyond branding, talent, attraction, martech and insights, then take a short trip over to our friends at shaker.com. Literally got one thing that's going on at least from a travel standpoint thus far. We're going, I feel like we're going to have a busy travel season. I am headed to Majorca for smart recruiters event in about a week or so. So pretty excited about that.

Joel Cheesman (18:15.778)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (18:27.163)

Excited to see the the gang smart recruiters definitely to see how everything is coming together with the behemoth we know as SAP

Joel Cheesman (18:38.83)

For sure, for sure. Curious. I know you talked to Jamie at RecFest quite a bit. Is there any concern like the Americans aren't coming this year or we're concerned about American's companies and people or them coming? Like, is there any sort of concern at this moment that people won't come from the States to RecFest?

Chad Sowash (18:56.013)

No, from my, literally talked to him earlier today. and it sounded like, mean, they were already rolling gangbusters, for the UK event. obviously the, you know, the Nashville event is, is further into, the year, but yeah, this, it sounds like the UK event has happened and also the, RL events too. Yeah. So many. Let's do it.

Joel Cheesman (19:06.925)

Awesome.

Joel Cheesman (19:15.33)

That's great news. That's great news from many perspectives, many perspectives. You ready for topics? Is EuroChat ready for topics? Let's do it.

Joel Cheesman (19:30.382)

Well, Chad, OpenAI has been busy this week. Here's just a taste of what they've done. They've confirmed plans to test advertising. They're hiring a new head of preparedness with a base compensation at around half a million dollars plus equity. And they're reportedly testing a new jobs feature within ChatGPT that helps users with their career development that could offer training, upscaling, and facilitate career changes. Ads, Zuckerberg-like salaries, and getting into jobs.

What could go wrong? Chad, your take on all things OpenAI this week.

Chad Sowash (20:04.463)

So on the ad side of the house, wasn't this one of Leaven's predictions that ChatGPT would be? I think it was. think he might knock, he might, yeah, he might actually knock another one out of the park already. But yeah, I think it's necessary because OpenAI needs to generate more revenue, but they're gonna lose the battle for two reasons. Number one, routine and comfort.

Joel Cheesman (20:13.902)

I had one too many egg nogs on that show, so I'm not sure what...

Joel Cheesman (20:20.6)

Alright.

Chad Sowash (20:32.025)

People are already comfortable using ChatGPT message free in their daily weekly routines. Add in advertisements. I mean, I would assume there's going to be a revolt. And there are way too many other large language models to be able to jump to. And number two, one of those large language models, which I actually talked about before, is Gemini. Google's already baked Gemini into Google Search. They're slowly boiling the frog when it comes to tuning their search.

and turning it into a full Gemini mode. Now, as they do that, again, the boiling the frog process is users are using it on an everyday basis and they're starting to get a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more where chat GPT does this, they're just gonna piss people off. The head of preparedness thing, you can't pay me enough. You could not pay me enough for that job because...

That is just someone to point the finger at when shit goes wrong. Their whole job, their whole job, reason for being is to make sure that the large language model doesn't go rogue. Well, there's way too many aspects, especially with something that large. And as soon as it does go rogue, fingers going to get pointed, somebody's going to get ousted and who knows, it might be in Congress and the whole.

Joel Cheesman (21:30.086)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (21:39.341)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (21:51.052)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (21:53.987)

jobs thing. mean, that to me is just dangerous. The whole development against jobs. Give me a fucking break. It's weird. It's just weird. They're throwing everything, throwing everything at the wall.

Joel Cheesman (21:59.692)

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (22:07.886)

Yeah, if you're, if you're looking for a reason to get bearish on open AI, think that the cracks are starting to show, um, in case you missed it, Sam Altman called advertising a quote last result or last resort, sorry, uh, in terms of the business model. And I I've heard people this week kind of compare it to Google when they launched ads and everyone kind of freaked out, but it was all okay. The difference is Google had no other revenue.

They didn't have subscriptions. They didn't have like APIs. didn't, they didn't have anything and advertising was, they kind of begrudgingly did it, but they had to because the investors were like, we got to make money with this thing, man. So I, to me it says open AI is not on the road to make enough through subscriptions, through enterprise, you know, licenses or whatever, like they have to go to advertising fairly quickly and their business.

There was a really interesting interview on it if you saw it with Ben Affleck, the actor, and he talked about how AI will never make stories like human beings because they always sort of fall to the mean. They never go sort of on the edges to make anything exciting. You could debate that yes or no. But one thing that he did say in addition to that that was interesting to me was that he talked about how all these AI companies have to talk about AI is going to rule the world.

No one's going to have to work. Like they have to go to the fringes in order to get the sort of valuations and the money that they need to, let's be honest, pay for the energy that they have to access to power these systems. And I think it's, I think there's a real danger, particularly with open AI, that this is a house of cards. They're promising the moon. Investors are getting antsy. Apparently they have to pay these kinds of salaries to get people to come.

Chad Sowash (23:35.236)

death.

Chad Sowash (23:57.945)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (23:58.39)

There was a day where open AI was cool and I was willing to go there probably for a lot less because it was the next thing. And you've got, you've got Nvidia selling them chips that they're, that they're, they're, they're lending money for. Like it's sort of the weird shell game. Like I really worry that open AI is a house of cards that could fall at any time. So I I'm watching that really carefully. think Jim and I is probably in the catbird seat in terms of AI.

And I think they're just kind of waiting it out to see what happens. I kind of commented on the salary thing, but there was a day that they didn't have to do that. They have like when we said Facebook has to pay somebody, you know, a hundred million dollars or whatever, like they had to cause nobody wanted to go to Facebook. If people aren't wanting to go to open AI now, that's a real problem. Dude, we've been around the block on this jobs thing. Like let's, let's go through the timeline. It won't be a history lesson, but from my space.

Chad Sowash (24:40.579)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (24:50.754)

You

Joel Cheesman (24:56.376)

to this, like all these big tech companies that talk about we're getting into jobs, we're killing LinkedIn, we're killing Monster, like give me a break. I'll believe it when I see it, but there's nothing here that would make me say like, my God, open AI, chat GPT are gonna like rewrite the rules of job search. I don't see it. If they're talking about ads and jobs, they have bigger problems than kicking out LinkedIn and Indeed in this space, as far as I'm concerned.

Chad Sowash (24:59.02)

everybody.

Chad Sowash (25:06.841)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (25:18.777)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (25:23.001)

agreed. yeah. yeah. they don't have the I mean, they do have companies like Microsoft that are there that's that have given them money. I mean, they've taken over 600 or $60 billion for goodness sakes. But Google already has proven revenue streams are sustainable, Facebook sustainable.

Amazon sustainable with clog. mean, yeah, that's the hard part. You have to take a look at sustainability and the only way that they can sustain much like you'd said with the rising costs to be able to get to the next chat GPT level is to spend a shit ton of cash.

Joel Cheesman (25:44.5)

Amazon. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (25:59.01)

Yeah, the only thing that turns us around to me is if Johnny Ive, the creative genius around the iPhone and so many Apple products, he's owned by OpenAid. If they launch some sort of customer device that just blows everybody away, then I might change my mind. But I'm not betting on that either.

Chad Sowash (26:20.323)

We thought Facebook would do that too. We thought Google would do that too. Yeah. Yeah. For the most part. I still use chat GPT though.

Joel Cheesman (26:22.198)

Are you still, you're primarily Gemini now, right? Okay.

Yeah, I'm a grok guy. Because they don't give a fuck. Like, I want financial advice, health advice, what to bet on Saturday. Like, grok is there for me, baby.

Chad Sowash (26:34.711)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (26:41.143)

I don't even want to get into that. my God.

Feel dirty for you just saying that. Yes. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (26:47.606)

All right. All right. Acquisitions. Here we go. Seattle area startup included, included AI focused on DEI data analytics and employee engagement was acquired by Phenom, a company that you and I know pretty well. And most of our listeners will also, but they are a global sort of HR company. The acquisition will integrate included technology into Phenom's applied AI platform, enhancing people analytics capabilities.

Chad Sowash (26:57.485)

included.

Joel Cheesman (27:16.44)

Terms were not disclosed, but Included had raised $7.3 million. A majority of their 15 employees will apparently join Phenom. Chad, your take on the Phenom acquisition of Included.

Chad Sowash (27:31.811)

I'm going to go back to my 20, my second to 2026 prediction that ISIM should acquire Vonk or Veritone higher, not just because of that sweet, sweet $16 billion of recruitment marketing dollar. No, but also because of the agent and AI side of the house. Phenom got the message partially. I see companies like Phenom doubling down on AI after years of saying we're an AI shop. They buy more. Why?

Because as we've seen over the years, a company like an iSIMS or a Phenom will have AI as a feature, not as the backbone to their platform. Plus, that AI probably isn't built on newer infrastructure using newer models, so it's going to fall behind much faster. In the press release, it starts out with, quote, acquisition solves complex enterprise data challenges, empowering all organizations to advance workforce planning, end quote.

What that means to me is they didn't have the capability to stay in the AI and agentic arms race. Smart recruiters was more blatant and said, hey, we're scrapping the old stuff and we're building from the ground up with AI and agentic. That's totally paraphrasing there. Then Paradox was always an AI house. They were always recalibrating.

building for tomorrow, including agentic. now Phenom is trying to send the same signal to the market because remember, they want acquired too. Paradox acquired, smart recruiters acquired, right? It's a smart move that all players that are even close to approaching agentic AI should consider. You can either partner or acquire.

build a part of that equation is totally out the window now because these models are maturing so quickly. And once you start building, you're already behind. So good on phenom. I mean, I think it was a smart.

Joel Cheesman (29:33.194)

If you haven't checked out the stock prices of Workday, Salesforce, ServiceNow and others, you should. It's ugly. It's very ugly. The market with public companies like that, and these are companies with a lot of money, a lot of really smart people, a lot of brand awareness, like they're hurting. How do you think Phenom is doing? You know, we don't know because they're not a public company, but

Chad Sowash (29:51.086)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:00.694)

If you look at what Workday and Salesforce are struggling with, it's that AI is going to take their business, their seats and their amount of users and like people are going to build this in-house and like their business is going to be challenged. So if you're looking for a reason to be bearish on open AI, to me, this is a reason to be bearish on Phenom. And I think about the companies that were born pre-Chat GPT.

Chad Sowash (30:29.22)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:29.366)

And the ones that we're seeing now that are post chat GPT, if you're phenom, if you're eightfold, if you're any sort of the companies that launched before the AI that we know today, I don't know that you're prepared to compete in the new world of AI. don't think it's a, I don't think it's a, an accident that paradox sold when it did. I think they saw the writing on the wall that look, we have, we we had great shit in 2016.

It's almost 2026. Like we may not be able to compete with what's coming. We might as well. We should sell now. And I think if eight fold and phenom could have sold last year, they would have, they didn't get it. They, uh, you know, the musical chairs ran out on them and now they're sort of straddled with saddled with, uh, okay, now make a go of it. And if I'm phenom, it's like, shit, how do we add things to the menu?

Chad Sowash (31:12.121)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (31:23.298)

How do we add, you know, extra guac or queso to the menu that maybe makes people come in or spend more money? And they came across included. included launched during the whole BLM, Me Too, DEI thing. Great at the time. That idea has sort of floated away. And this company two years ago had 21 employees. Today they have about 10 employees.

that doesn't really scream successful, hugely awesome company, right? It screams to me, TJ Maxx clearance rack socks for 99 cents. So I think I'm, if I'm phenom, I probably got a good deal. I probably got some good talent. I probably got some new customers. I probably got a little bit of more, runway to do things, but I don't look at this as like great job phenom. You're kicking ass. Like this is amazing. I view this as more of a spaghetti at the wall. Hail Mary.

Chad Sowash (32:05.646)

Hmm?

Joel Cheesman (32:19.15)

category.

Chad Sowash (32:21.007)

I would say they're definitely not kicking ass, let's say that, but they need an optics transformation. Them and Eightfold, which I'm glad you brought up, I think they have been, much like most of the AI players that are out there, they have over-promised and under-delivered over the years, right? That's been a problem. And I think this gives them an opportunity literally to reset and start to thinking of under-promising and over-deliver.

If they can get there, good on them. It's not going to be an easy road. That's for damn sure. And you're right. If they could have sold by now, they sure the hell would have. But again, this can be, who knows, a recalibration of sorts. And maybe included, maybe they dropped staff because their AI is so goddamn good. They just didn't need those people. I don't know. I don't know.

Joel Cheesman (33:13.422)

I'm sure that's what they, that's what they said in the negotiations. I'm sure that's what they said when they were talking price. mean, look, I like the guys at phenom. I've known them since they were I momentous doing mobile sites for career builder. Uh, so they can pivot, they can evolve, they can, you know, do changes and maybe there's something here that I don't see, but I just think, I just think there are a lot of companies in 2019 that had AI on their, on their booth at HR tech and are going, Oh shit, we don't really have AI.

Chad Sowash (33:25.02)

yeah, Jesus. Forever ago.

Chad Sowash (33:39.439)

yeah. yeah.

Joel Cheesman (33:43.276)

at what AI is today and they're struggling to be relevant. Unlike us, Chad, who just have microphones from 2016 still that work just fine apparently and can publish this stuff. Guys, we're gonna take a quick break. If you're not following us on your podcast platform of choice or even YouTube, please give us a follow, give us a like, share the joy with others if you want.

Chad Sowash (33:47.362)

It is different.

Chad Sowash (33:52.856)

It's a tank.

Chad Sowash (34:01.529)

Come on.

Joel Cheesman (34:12.494)

All right, Chad, to some good news, some sunny news, some feel good news in a world of chaos like Amadeus. Delta Airlines announced a $1.3 billion profit sharing payout for eligible employees, equivalent to roughly four weeks of pay. This payout based on 2025 profits represents an 8.9 % bonus on annual earnings and is part of Delta's longstanding profit sharing program since 2007.

Chad Sowash (34:14.602)

OK.

Chad Sowash (34:24.377)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (34:42.2)

That was a good year, Chad. Delta has paid over $13 billion in employee bonuses, sharing the wealth. What a concept. Chad, what are your thoughts on Delta?

Chad Sowash (34:53.743)

Yeah, remember 2008 was not a good year. So I love profit sharing. It helps companies see employees as shareholders. And when those shareholders want a bigger bonus, they provide and they demand better services of themselves and others, right? But plus, the diversification in Delta's business is incredibly smart. Their premium traveler revenue grew 9%. American Express revenue reached over 8.5%.

billion dollars in 2025 was an 11 % increase. Maintenance repair overhaul saw a massive 25 % revenue jump and cargo revenue also went up 9%. Great diversification efforts. I fucking love that. Here's the part that hurts. Okay, you're going to have to bring us out of this hole after this one, Cheeseman. Here's the part that hurts because it's all great in this moment. Remember 2007?

Okay, well, I feel like 2008 is coming because it's not sustainable in a K shaped economy. Yes, main cabin ticket revenue only fell 7 % but airfare is 28.5 % higher than it was in 2019. That's a lot of fucking money. So what happens when the masses being the low part of the K, what happens when they fall deeper into debt? Wages barely keep up with inflation.

Joel Cheesman (36:10.926)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (36:21.753)

They won't fly. Why? Because they can't fucking afford to. Less travelers mean less flights. Less flights mean less maintenance, repair, overhaul service. That's right. There goes that 25%. Less wages means buying less stuff, which means a less in need for cargo services. The diversification looks great until you understand it's unsustainable if we don't pay people more money to spend on buying flights and stuff.

Joel Cheesman (36:32.408)

you

Chad Sowash (36:52.175)

And when all that happens, less flights also means less jobs. So to me, this is 2007. You said it perfectly. It's a sugar high at best. I see a big reckoning coming if we don't rectify the pay and the wages out there.

Yeah, sorry about that.

Joel Cheesman (37:16.878)

You

So you're right. We hear about the K-shaped economy. The haves have more and are getting more and the have-nots, well, good luck, basically is the message. Now Delta is a recipient of that economy. I don't think it's their fault. You can't tell Rolex to make a cheaper watch so people can tell time. That's the market that they're in and that's where they're going. And their latest quarterly earnings, they...

Chad Sowash (37:38.915)

No.

Joel Cheesman (37:49.153)

admitted that they make more on the seats at the front of the plane than the seats in the back. mean, how long before we have like a full first class and business class and comfort plus plane? I mean, I think it's coming. It's like, you don't want to pay? Like we got Frontier, we got Spirit, we got other airlines that you can, Joey Bagadona, air that you can use. I don't think that's Delta's fault.

Chad Sowash (37:53.017)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (38:06.612)

I don't know that that many people can afford it.

Joel Cheesman (38:19.16)

They've carved out a niche with the high end flyer and they're reaping the benefits. And it's a circular economy or it's a certain, it's a circular model where if we're making more money on the high end, we're employing better people. We're retaining those people and the people who fly get better treatment because we're treating our employees better at around and around we go and everyone profits from that. So the feel good story here is like,

Chad Sowash (38:20.567)

No. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (38:46.754)

Delta has a fantastic business and you and I fly them religiously. My wife prays at the altar of Delta whenever she flies and loves it. I used to be like a price guy, but now I'm like, yes, honey, I'll do Delta cause she gets the points and shit. So like we're bought in. and I think that's definitely, great for them. Now your forebodance on the greater economy and where things are going, I think you're spot on.

Chad Sowash (38:51.002)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (39:14.478)

We are a greater disparity as a country and as probably a global system as we've ever been. And that does not bode well for anybody. That's when pitchforks and fires get started. And I don't think it's going to impact global travel. I don't think rich people are going to stop going to London, Paris, and Singapore. But I think a lot of poor people will say, you know what, let's just drive to Florida.

Chad Sowash (39:44.783)

Yeah. Well, I think it's also the middle group, right? So I mean, if rates, I mean, you and I are not rich, right? But we do fly first class. We do we do, you know, Delta one. Oh, yeah, Delta one. But if those prices keep creeping up, I'm not going to be able to fly. That just means I'm going to fly less. Right. So sometimes I fly because I want to because I'm getting ready to travel. Maybe I'm going to fly on easy jet instead. Right. I mean, it's just I don't know. But what it comes down to is, you know,

Joel Cheesman (39:45.198)

So does that impact the.

Joel Cheesman (39:53.368)

But we feel rich flying Delta.

Chad Sowash (40:14.633)

As the rich get richer and the bottom half just become poorer, even those in the middle section aren't gonna be able to afford shit.

Joel Cheesman (40:26.53)

Moving on to our next story, hoping to dig out of this nightmare. Meta, how about that? Let's talk Zuckerberg. The Metaverse was fun while it lasted, wasn't it? The Verge is reporting Meta is discontinuing its Metaverse for work, Horizon Workrooms, which I don't even remember launching. It didn't make much of a noise. It's standalone app.

Joel Cheesman (40:54.232)

They'll stop selling headsets and software for businesses. This decision follows recent layoffs in Meta's Reality Labs division, which built the Metaverse Oculus system and a shift in focus away from VR. Time to put your Oculus on eBay, Chad. Your thoughts on the apparent death of virtual reality.

Chad Sowash (41:14.095)

I mean, they should have called this project and or product operation in cell. Professor Scott Galloway says it best. once again, I'll paraphrase. Nobody wants to fuck someone with that stupid shit on their face. But seriously, look at Mark Zuckerberg. If the dude wasn't a billionaire, if this whole Facebook thing didn't really go off the way it was supposed to. Oh, my God. What happened? I lost I lost light. Give me a second.

Joel Cheesman (59:23.832)

Well, Chad, looks like it's time to put your Oculus on eBay for sale. What are your thoughts on the apparent death of VR?

Chad Sowash (59:49.312)

Well, they should have called this project and or product operation in cell. And I think Professor Scott Galloway says it best. once again, I'll paraphrase. Nobody wants to fuck someone with this stupid shit on their face. But seriously, look at Mark Zuckerberg. If the dude wasn't a billionaire, if things didn't land well with Facebook, he might be living in his mom's basement instead of a bunker. I do appreciate the attempt. Moreover.

The retreat after seeing that the metaverse as a whole was an anchor weighing down their focus and resources. The big question for me is would this have worked if they would have you would not have used those ugly headsets and they would have went with a cool pair of Ray bands. I don't know. But I think this big ugly thing on your face just it's not good for attractability I guess.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:43.886)

Yeah, yeah.

Chad Sowash (01:00:49.45)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:00:49.614)

All right, give me some runway on this one. Give me some runway on this one. So two parts real quick. The business side, pretty straightforward to me. I will never shit on a company that takes a big swing. There are way too many companies that don't risk it, that don't put their money where their mouth is, that just play it safe. So I will never, whether it's Indeed, I plotted them when they went through this whole iteration of what they are now, and I'm not going to shit on Meta and Facebook.

Chad Sowash (01:00:52.19)

Okay. Okay.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:18.392)

for what they did. took a big swing and they obviously missed. They're taking their ball on that and going home. I'm, fine with that. know people lose jobs. know that Mark has paid too much and that argument is fine, but I will never show on a company for taking a big swing. Now to my next point, and as the, the, the lone cohost on the show that actually wears glasses, I feel like I have something to say about the, the, the smart glasses. I think Mark Zuckerberg wakes up every day.

Chad Sowash (01:01:28.585)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:48.321)

and says, how is Apple and Google going to fuck me today? Or how can I fuck Google and Apple today? I think he, he ruse the day that they own the phone that they Facebook tried to phone it failed. I think he hates that. think that he wants to own some platform that he can own. if launching the Oculus metaverse project,

Chad Sowash (01:01:53.055)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:17.772)

has resulted in the smart wearables or the smart glasses, then it was, I think it was probably worth it. Look, sometimes you have to swing for the fences to get a double to learn that that's okay. There are a billion people on earth that have glasses. There are more than that that wear sunglasses. If this becomes a fraction of that, it's going to be successful. We know from data that they are selling out of these things.

And I can tell you as an owner of version one, that it is hard to get the display version. the display version is to me, the next iteration where you have augmented shit. It's on your glasses. can map stuff and translate stuff on the fly. as I'm getting old and deffer, I go to these conferences. I can't hear people. If I can see what they're saying on my glasses, like that's a game changer for me, in conferences, you can control it with your hand. So.

Chad Sowash (01:03:11.295)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:14.646)

I think there's a real opportunity that that could be the future. And look, wearing glasses sucks. I would much rather get out of bed, go on about my day and not worry about it. But if you're going to tell me that, okay, you people who wear glasses now, you know what? You're going to be able to listen to music. You're going to be able to take like a real quick photo of your kid that's playing soccer. You're going to be able to translate something in Europe that you don't know what it says directly through your glasses. You're going to have like a little meta agent with you all the time.

That's exciting. I know that the non-glass wearers in the world are like, this is creepy. You're watching me. Like I'm here to tell you that's not happening. I'm not creeping on people with my metas. I'm probably listening to radio. I'm listening to Radiohead. Like it's, it's okay. All right. so, so I think as somebody who wears glasses, like, I think this is really cool. I don't know if it's the future, but I know it's going to be part of my interaction with technology going forward. I'm going to, got my eye appointment.

Chad Sowash (01:03:55.615)

You're not. You're not.

Joel Cheesman (01:04:14.262)

next month. If I can't get the displays, I'm going to get the version two, which has a longer battery life and more bells and whistles. But I can't wait to get the augmented glasses where I can see shit. If we're on stage doing an interview and I can have my notes in front of me and no one sees that, again, that's a game changer for what I do for a living. So, meta versus dead. I don't know if it's totally dead. I think there is some, some usage cases with surgery or porn.

or other things, but yes, as a big business, it's not gonna happen, but I'm not gonna show in him for taking a big swing, and if that big swing means that I can have smart glasses, and that's a thing of the future, I'm cool with it.

Chad Sowash (01:04:56.608)

Yeah, it could be just the iteration from these big ugly things that are on your face, this big capsule that's on your fucking face to a nice pair of rebands. But yeah, they look nicer. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:05:05.784)

For sure, and the other side is the Google glasses are awful. The whole like little block thing on it, like that wasn't gonna happen. Like give Metis some credit that they partnered with Ray-Ban, they made something that is visually acceptable, and that it's great. I'm here for it. I love my Metis. Yeah, and yes.

Chad Sowash (01:05:24.419)

Google's gonna have him coming out too. So I'm glad I guarantee you Apple will I mean this will be a thing but they're going to have to look sexy because you don't want something on your face that makes you look like a fucking turd and he just don't and and those in the augmented reality versions that they had originally they just were ugly as hell. They're ugly.

Joel Cheesman (01:05:40.739)

Sure.

Joel Cheesman (01:05:47.651)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, a lot of times you swing for the fences and go, we know what that concept, it was cool looking maybe, but it didn't work out. Like let's pull it back and be more, but I agree with you. Apple's going to have them. Google's going to have them. I think somebody's going to buy Warby Parker and just like integrated into like that whole purchase system. But yeah, it's, definitely going to be a thing.

Chad Sowash (01:05:54.175)

Mm.

Chad Sowash (01:06:04.403)

Makes sense.

Chad Sowash (01:06:08.671)

Well, you talk about swinging for the fences. We've got something to talk about after this break.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:11.566)

We do, we do. And by the way guys, if you haven't left us a review, god damn it, tell us what you think of the show, good or bad, we love to hear from ya. And we'll be right back.

Chad Sowash (01:06:18.974)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:25.752)

Jeff Taylor is back. And when our listeners that are loyal will know that we just dropped a Jeff Taylor combo interview this week. So if you haven't checked that out, please do so. But Jeff Taylor, as you know, the founder of Monster is back with Boom Band. It's a job matching site from the Monster founder. It's now live in Boston with a gradual rollout across the U S job seekers must request access to create profiles called dossiers.

Chad Sowash (01:06:27.473)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:55.798)

And begin their job search. Sharon Hill of AIM Group said the concept is intriguing, but the limited access may impact its marketing momentum. Chad, are you ready to rock out to this new band or is it destined for the resale bend at your local tower records?

Chad Sowash (01:07:13.215)

I love the whole boom band scenario and how it connects to Dr. Seuss. That's always kind of fun. But knowing Jeff for as long as I have back in the monster days, I think it's time for a history lesson. I think it's time for a history lesson.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:36.76)

Bring it.

Chad Sowash (01:07:37.073)

Now, we all have to remember that Jeff is aggressive. He's one of the pioneers of bringing jobs to the World Wide Web. Yes, kids, that's what we used to call the Internet. And also, that's what the WWW preceding the URL actually stands for, just in case, World Wide Web. Anyway, Jeff brought the Monster Board to us, and it was a great success. But also remember, Jeff brought us Chief Monster, Monster Momentum.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:59.118)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (01:08:02.973)

Monster Networking, Monster Blue Collar, and don't forget, he left Monster for eons. They were all failures, right? But there were only failures because Jeff was way too damn early. Monster Networking proceeded, LinkedIn, too early. Monster Momentum was an ASP version of an applicant tracking system.

Joel Cheesman (01:08:09.166)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (01:08:23.679)

We now live in a world of applicant tracking systems that are accessible online. There are many other blue collar job boards that are operating out there. And last but never least, Eons had a dating component, which probably about a decade earlier than the 50 plus dating site, ourtime.com. So Jeff has always been early. My biggest question is, always, you know, is he,

Is he too early this time or is he too late? And I hope he's right on time, but he's going to need tons of advisors that have fresh eyes that are not yes people. And that's going to be hard for Jeff because he's a big, big personality and people like saying yes around Jeff because the market is moving so quickly. He's going to need.

Frank feedback and bold moves. say good luck, but he might be too late. He might be too early. I'm not sure if it's right on time.

Joel Cheesman (01:09:29.87)

Mm.

Chad Sowash (01:09:34.335)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:09:37.551)

So you and I have gotten a demo from Jeff of the product, or at least an iteration of it. It's been a few months. I'm sure it's evolved since then. it's a little unfair to make any sort of concrete opinions about Boom Band other than what we've seen. Two thoughts on this. He's taking on LinkedIn, more or less, and that's a really high mountain to climb.

Chad Sowash (01:09:37.972)

ground.

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:10:07.008)

a lot of LinkedIn killers have come and gone. And while that's happening, LinkedIn gets more and more users, more and more engagement, et cetera. So to me, that's a really, really big ask to take on LinkedIn. The other thing that I think about when I watch him and I watch this process, it feels like someone who was successful

in 1999, launching a product in 2026. In other words, he's dropping billboards. He's doing sort of an invite only. Like that was cool back in the day when like, Hey, if you want Gmail, put in your code or like, there used to be a thing where to get in the club, you had to have access and you had to ask to get in. Those days seem gone. Like if you don't drop something for the globe, or at least the country that you're in,

Chad Sowash (01:10:51.966)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (01:10:56.019)

Yep. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (01:11:03.872)

It feels antiquated to me. Like, why can't I get in again? I don't understand what's going on. It feels almost like Groupon. Like, we're launching in Boston this week, and next month we're going to be in Philly. Like, it just seems a little stale to me. Again, I haven't really put the site through the rigor. I like Jeff a lot. It's really hard to strike lightning twice.

It's really hard. he had a really good success his first time at bat. and it's been challenging since then. I'm not a buyer of boom band at the moment. I'm willing to rethink it once it comes to Indianapolis, I guess, and I can actually use it and see what's going on. but for right now, like it's a lot of, it's a lot of noise, a lot of, not a lot of signal from me at this point, not a lot of signal and

Chad Sowash (01:11:35.454)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:12:01.367)

And it's weird too, that he's launching a pod, like he's doing a podcast. I mean, you look at his profile, LinkedIn, he's got the headphones and the mic. So it almost looks like I'm a podcaster more than I am an entrepreneur. So I don't, I don't know what message he's trying to relay about the podcast thing. And like there aren't many reviews on the podcast. don't, mean, there's only, he's only a few episodes in, you would think like Jeff Taylor could get some more engagement, more reviews and stuff. I don't see a lot of energy there.

Chad Sowash (01:12:09.512)

Nah.

Joel Cheesman (01:12:29.718)

So it's just, it's just kind of weird. we'll see. mean, the guy's probably smarter than me. I'll give him that. So maybe I'll be surprised in six months, but for now, like, this, this is a sell for me. If we were doing buyer sell. Sorry, Jeff. still love you.

Chad Sowash (01:12:42.88)

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. had I had actually somebody reached out to me today and they and they have a podcast, have a business and then they have a podcast and they talk to me about sponsorship on the podcast. And I was like, you need to fucking focus. I mean, you're you are a startup owner, right? Continue to do the podcast. That's great. But your focus and your revenue and your growth should be on the product. Right.

Joel Cheesman (01:12:51.278)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:13:09.4)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (01:13:10.719)

I mean, his podcast to some extent is talking to job seekers. I think it's incredibly anecdotal. You know, I think there's a lot more research that you could actually get than just having, you know, casual conversations with job seekers. Although, again, he likes to be in the limelight. He always has. He's got that DJ mindset. Right. So, I mean, you know, we'll see where it goes. The only thing I can say is, Jeff, two things. Find some advisors that just won't say yes to you. And number two, focus, focus, focus.

Joel Cheesman (01:13:41.199)

Yeah. And it's a big team too. There's like 20 employees. I'm like, what, how, what really in 2026 you've launched something with that many employees. If you go to their about page, there's like 20 people on the page. Um, uh, or at least LinkedIn has that and there's, there's, it's a good number. You would look at him and be like, holy shit. And they haven't raised money as far as I know. So if he's self funding this, like, I don't know how long that's going to last. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't want to say it feels like, you know, he's in his sixties.

Chad Sowash (01:13:44.797)

Really?

Are they all engineers?

Yeah. Okay.

Chad Sowash (01:13:57.567)

It's aggressive.

Joel Cheesman (01:14:10.882)

Like a final fit, like a final round of the bases, one more time at bat, see how it goes and get attention again. And we've interviewed him and put the spotlight on him. I don't think it's just a project to feel better about yourself. I hope that it is an actual business, but for now it just, it just seems kind of like, we'll see. We'll see how this goes. It is definitely not like, holy shit. He got it. That's it. Yes. This is the future. did this. I don't feel that when I see the company.

Chad Sowash (01:14:31.583)

Good luck, Jeff.

Chad Sowash (01:14:39.327)

The thing that I think the funniest thing for me is the mascots, the little boom bang mascots. They look like the used car, like floater with the hands flying thing. It's just, yes, yes.

Joel Cheesman (01:14:45.957)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:14:50.124)

Yeah, the balloonish, yeah, the car dealership, look at me thing. Yeah, you nailed that one. I don't know if you came up, I don't know if that's a Chad original, but whoever came up with that, if not you, it was pretty good.

Chad Sowash (01:15:02.717)

It is, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:15:07.584)

Almost as original as my dad jokes. Chad, are you ready for this?

Chad Sowash (01:15:07.999)

Okay. I think I am. think I am.

Joel Cheesman (01:15:16.11)

Well, we started with Canada, let's end with Canada. Chad, what do Americans call a first degree murder in Canada? What do Americans call a first degree murder in Canada?

Chad Sowash (01:15:23.15)

shit.

Chad Sowash (01:15:28.339)

Canook aside.

Joel Cheesman (01:15:31.246)

A 34 degree murder.

Chad Sowash (01:15:33.929)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:15:36.748)

It'll hit you in a while. We out!

Chad Sowash (01:15:37.856)

Oh yes, we out! 34 degrees.

Joel Cheesman (01:15:43.139)

Celsius!