Walmart's Eating AwardCo's Unicorns?

Buckle up, buttercup—it’s a bumpy ride through HR hell and economic WTFs on this week’s Chad & Cheese:

• Spy Games Update: Rippling accuses Deel of espionage so shady it could trigger its own Netflix doc. Globalization Partners whispers, “Same.”

• Klarna drops an AI avatar earnings report so cringe, it screams “IPO thirst trap” while micro payments scream back in predatory.

• AI interviews are here, and they suck. J.T. preaches job-search strategy while Chad wants to Max Headroom his way out of the uncanny valley.

• AwardCo hits unicorn status by slapping gold stars on bad management. Recognition? More like “congrats for not quitting.”

• Trump tells Walmart to “eat the tariffs” like it’s a McRib—Chad sees chaos, J.T. sees campaign cosplay.

• Senate says no taxes on tips = working-class win. Joel says try paying a living wage, you cowards.

  
  

It’s corporate espionage, AI awkwardness, and political head fakes—all in one glorious trainwreck.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:37.353)

them eat tariffs on a Qatari luxury jet. Hi boys and girls. This is the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Hicks versus Nick's Cheesman.

J.T. O'Donnell (00:38.892)

Thank

The Chad (00:46.862)

This is Chad, Skype is dead. Sowash.

J.T. O'Donnell (00:50.964)

And this is JT. I can't take this weather in New England anymore, Odon.

Joel Cheesman (00:55.103)

And on this episode, eating tariffs, taxing tips, and dancing unicorns, everybody. That's right, let's do this.

The Chad (01:08.502)

You were all, I mean, you're now sleeveless, but you just had a big, like, coat sweater. I mean, I don't want you to freeze, just on account of us.

J.T. O'Donnell (01:12.172)

Oh yeah. You want me to go there? there. I mean, hey, if you're in New England, you get it, you get it right now, right folks? Like they're telling me a nor'easter, 35 degrees and I'm gonna see snow. It's May 22nd. I am.

The Chad (01:22.03)

It's almost June. It's almost June.

Joel Cheesman (01:25.705)

mean that hot pink sweater increased the temperature in my house. It's so warm. Like I don't know what you need.

J.T. O'Donnell (01:30.42)

I'm supposed to be on the golf course on the river swinging away. Instead, I'm going to have a simulator golf lesson today because we can't go outside. What is that? is that? River. Yeah. So, yeah. So in New England, there's a up in Maine is Sunday River and they have the number one golf course in Maine. It is absolutely beautiful and stunning. But if you go and you go into the river and so,

Joel Cheesman (01:42.443)

So you're wearing a hat that says RIVA, R-I-V-A-H. Is that a golf course in New England?

The Chad (01:59.372)

River.

J.T. O'Donnell (01:59.852)

This hat is sold out, just, know, it's the only one you can get and I love her. I love her. You don't always hear my accent. I can bring it out.

The Chad (02:03.512)

So no, she's got it. She's got it.

Joel Cheesman (02:06.251)

What do we think of the, have we seen the trend of the upside down text on hats? That's a thing now? I don't, I don't, I'm too old to get it, but I noticed it.

The Chad (02:13.334)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (02:13.42)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (02:17.034)

That works for me. I love hats. I'd wear them every day if I could. I do. And I decided today. What?

The Chad (02:18.894)

You know who else? Who else is too old? They know who else is too old to get it? Skype, because it's dead. 23 years old.

Hey, and could we could we possibly call Skype the blockbuster of video calling? I mean, they were the biggest in the space and they just got smothered by tons of other video call companies. Zoom, Google Meet, WhatsApp, Facebook, WebEx. mean, all these other and even. Well, yeah, the its younger sibling. Microsoft Teams is more used.

J.T. O'Donnell (02:31.382)

Wait, I think I still have credit.

Joel Cheesman (02:50.827)

Microsoft fucked that up.

Joel Cheesman (02:56.787)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

The Chad (03:00.066)

Then Skype and they say they're going to just roll Skype into Microsoft Teams, which means they're just literally going to make accounts accessible. I think.

Joel Cheesman (03:08.203)

I'm still getting over. I'm still getting, yeah, I'm still getting over Flickr leaving Flickr without the E. Everybody remember all my photos on Flickr. Damn it. Damn it. All right. So yeah, we got snow in the forecast in May, New England. Here it's here it's fifties and cloudy and what's the weather weather in Portugal, Chad?

J.T. O'Donnell (03:08.652)

Where are my credits? I think I still have money.

The Chad (03:13.582)

I

J.T. O'Donnell (03:14.173)

Thank you.

The Chad (03:19.182)

Will still has a MySpace.

The Chad (03:26.381)

ridiculous.

The Chad (03:32.238)

85 baby, I had to shut the curtains because there's so much sun coming in. 85 and beautiful. No clouds.

Joel Cheesman (03:38.291)

Nice. So what's on top for you this weekend, Chad?

The Chad (03:44.088)

Beach, beach, yeah, beach and bar, bar, beach, restaurants, that kind of stuff. Yep, bye.

J.T. O'Donnell (03:44.556)

What you doing Chad?

Joel Cheesman (03:45.097)

Bitch, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (03:50.699)

Bar beach, I got it. I got, you'll appreciate this, the Indy 500 I'm going this weekend. This weekend, yeah. Oh, we got seats. You know, I'm too old for that shit. I got seats, I got a plush recliner somewhere. Indy's not the best place in the world to live, but in May, it's not bad. Like you got the race, usually the weather's turning.

The Chad (03:56.615)

yeah. Are you going to the infield? Where are you going? OK.

Joel Cheesman (04:19.231)

We got Caitlin Clark playing again. We got the Pacers Pacers and a big one last night against the Knicks. so yeah, mayors usually pretty high in Indianapolis. So it's not, it's not too bad. Not too bad. How about you, JT? Yeah. The one month out of the year.

The Chad (04:20.952)

Got the Pacers. Whoo. That was awesome.

The Chad (04:30.914)

You get a few days out of the year. It's great.

J.T. O'Donnell (04:33.324)

Yeah, graduation party's nephews graduating. So yeah, weather permitting if we can get to the outdoors. Yeah, I'm pretty chill.

Joel Cheesman (04:38.377)

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, cold cheeseman, cold cheeseman graduation. I'll be I'll be absent in a couple weeks for his graduation party and everything. So yeah. All good stuff. All good stuff. We got shout outs.

J.T. O'Donnell (04:48.128)

Nice. Nice.

The Chad (04:49.326)

That's awesome. That's freaking awesome. Well, good for him. Are you ready to the shout outs? Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (04:56.972)

Good luck.

Joel Cheesman (04:58.249)

You know they're sponsored by our friends up North, Kiora. That's text recruiting done simply and cost effectively. JT has got some stuff she wants to get off her chest.

J.T. O'Donnell (05:08.556)

Yeah. My shout out is to Shannon with one end Burgess, the, um, prosecution's expert in the Karen Reed case this week got on there and, uh, talked about all his wealth of knowledge and then was systematically dismantled by the defense when they pulled up his LinkedIn profile and three versions of his resume, all of which claimed he had a bachelor's degree, uh, in various different titles and all a lie, all a lie. They caught him in a lie on the stand.

The Chad (05:08.558)

Huh? What?

Joel Cheesman (05:25.163)

you

J.T. O'Donnell (05:37.516)

He had to come back for more testimony the next day. Shockingly, the LinkedIn profile was private and all the references to it were suddenly gone on the profile page of the company that he works for. And it's been revealed he has associate's degree. He's been going after the bachelor's though for 17 years. So he's going to be getting it any minute now. But, you know, the crazy thing about it was everybody was like running around saying, yeah, but you know, everyone pads their resume, but he really blew it. Like you shouldn't pad it that much when you're on the expert stand and like,

The Chad (05:43.694)

Ouch.

Joel Cheesman (05:44.267)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (05:55.507)

Mm-hmm. So he's a doctor.

The Chad (05:57.326)

Okay. Okay.

J.T. O'Donnell (06:07.648)

That's why we don't believe resumes anymore. And that's why we don't believe it. It's just, you just proved why the system should die. And we have to find something different, you know?

Joel Cheesman (06:09.899)

Mm. Mm.

The Chad (06:10.072)

Yeah.

The Chad (06:15.95)

And let's say he did have a bachelor's degree. I don't know how many people have like bachelor's degrees from 20, 30 years ago, right? It's about can you do the job now? Can you prove that you can do the job now? So yeah, mean, is...

Joel Cheesman (06:17.227)

Cheers.

J.T. O'Donnell (06:24.993)

Mm-hmm.

job.

J.T. O'Donnell (06:31.628)

Chad, that's the thing. He had an associates and 10 years of experience. He could do the job. Why July? Why July? You know, and it just did ruins it for everyone else. Like you can't trust a piece of paper anymore. Right.

The Chad (06:39.564)

Society, Society. It's like you gotta have a certain thing. So it's like you push people. Not saying that it's good to lie. Don't get me wrong, don't pad like that. But yeah, I totally get it. So why was he on the stand? Was this because he was lying about his credentials to get a job or?

Joel Cheesman (06:42.602)

Hmm

J.T. O'Donnell (06:56.284)

No, he was brought in to introduce some new evidence in the timeline of what the prosecution was claiming, which was also systematically dismantled by the defense. was just a nightmare. And then he admitted he claimed it was brand new, but then in his own testimony admitted that they asked for it over a month ago. So it was like what they truly call like an ambush of the defense. It's a crazy trial if nobody's watching it. If you are, everybody just message me because I don't have enough people to talk about it with. Like I'm obsessed.

The Chad (07:03.352)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (07:25.768)

obsessed with this case as many people across the country. But this one just blew my mind. Like they're putting up his LinkedIn profile. I mean, it's screenshotted forever. I don't know where this guy's going to get a job after this. Like it's everywhere, you No. Karen Reid.

The Chad (07:36.558)

it.

Joel Cheesman (07:37.003)

Is this part of the Diddy trial? I'm lost. What is... You mean there's another trial besides the Diddy trial right now?

The Chad (07:40.43)

Now there's just, there's just trials everywhere. Netflix. man, Netflix is going to have just so much fun. You've got Rippling versus Deal. You've got Diddy. You got this guy. I mean, there's just so much content out there available. Yes. Yes.

J.T. O'Donnell (07:44.518)

Yes, a field day.

J.T. O'Donnell (07:52.748)

There's so much good stuff coming.

Joel Cheesman (07:54.283)

Buy Netflix stock. That's an insider. That's an insider deal. That's an insider deal. Well, Chad, I don't know how I follow that because that's good. Clowns on the stand. But I'm going to go with another clown, Ronald McDonald. This is my second week that McDonald's is getting my shout out, saving the world one Big Mac at a time. I mentioned the new jobs that they're going to be creating, 900 new stores across the country.

And just like Taco Bell, they're going to be open later this summer. That's right, kids. If you need that, that McFlurry craving satisfied at 2 a.m. in the morning and who doesn't, who hasn't been there, go to McDonald's and get it up. But, but here's a bigger reason why McDonald's is getting my shout out. A lot of us out there suffer from migraine headaches. I'm one of them. I don't know. I'm sure a lot of other, if you listen to this, you probably get in the migraine right now and migraines can be cured.

J.T. O'Donnell (08:33.664)

with a french fry dip.

J.T. O'Donnell (08:44.704)

you're not going.

Joel Cheesman (08:50.921)

Get this by McDonald's. out, check out this footage everybody.

The Chad (09:08.533)

weird.

The Chad (09:21.55)

placebo effect. It's called placebo effect.

Joel Cheesman (09:21.715)

It's McMagic, baby. It's McMagic is how it works. McDonald's, McDonald's curing migraines, everybody. Shout out, I'm loving it and I'm feeling better from fries and my Diet Coke. Thanks.

J.T. O'Donnell (09:24.022)

Yeah.

The Chad (09:33.826)

I have to make a little placebo effect via cholesterol. My shout out this week goes back to last week. Last week I asked Matt Lavery and Joe Shaker to try out Portillo's sandwich called The Leo named after the newest pope and first American born pope also from Chicago. And here is Matt's review.

The Chad (10:01.656)

I love the closeup on the sandwich.

Joel Cheesman (10:25.405)

Here we go, Cubs.

Joel Cheesman (11:05.899)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (11:43.736)

question.

Joel Cheesman (11:47.381)

He's so diplomatic.

The Chad (12:14.583)

End of story.

Joel Cheesman (12:25.867)

Cheers.

J.T. O'Donnell (12:31.148)

What?

The Chad (12:31.566)

Matt Lavery does nothing halfway.

Joel Cheesman (12:34.219)

That was was good. Portellos. Yeah. It's a restaurant. It's a Chicago staple. We have one in Indianapolis, so I get to enjoy those. All right, couple things. Couple things real quick. I made a bet with Lavery on the Cubs over and under on wins for this season, which was 90. They're on pace to win 97 games, so I'm not looking real good at the moment on that bet.

J.T. O'Donnell (12:35.052)

What's a portillo's?

The Chad (12:37.124)

my God, my God.

J.T. O'Donnell (12:38.176)

Was it Portillo's? We don't have those in the Northeast. Okay.

J.T. O'Donnell (12:44.958)

All right, send one to New England. Italian beef.

The Chad (12:46.606)

Italian beef.

Joel Cheesman (13:03.891)

Matt's going to get a pretty good bottle of Irish whiskey on that. number two, Matt, Matt, that is that is one dry looking Leo man you get that thing should be swimming in a hot tub of gravy. I'm a little disappointed that looked really, really dry to me. I don't know. Hey, hey, hey.

The Chad (13:08.002)

the Portillo's gift card.

The Chad (13:16.942)

Hey, hey, hey, don't you shame him on his Italian beef. He likes it the way he likes it. Just because you're a wet sloppy sandwich eater doesn't mean that Matt has to be.

Joel Cheesman (13:27.103)

I want to wear my Leo. want to wear it. need to do laundry after I eat that thing, man. That's, that's, that's how I do it. That's how I do it. But shout out to him, man. Love, love me some at slavery, man. Love me some at labor.

The Chad (13:34.926)

Matt Layrie is amazing and just waiting for Joe Shaker to give us his review as well. And in the meantime, kids, got to sign up for free stuff. That's right. Go to Chadcheese.com slash free where you can get a free t-shirt from who? That's right. If you can see it, if you're watching video, Aaron App, from Aaron App. We've got a new design coming soon. Hopefully we'll release that kind of tease what's happening. We've got a bourbon barrel aged syrup from the boys over at

J.T. O'Donnell (13:38.582)

That's awesome.

Joel Cheesman (13:47.071)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (13:47.21)

Mmm, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:55.655)

Aaron

Joel Cheesman (14:01.451)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (14:07.502)

Keora up north at Keora whiskey two bottles of one bottle of kind of two bottles of chicken cock from Van hack craft beer from the job data geeks over at Aspen tech labs love those guys and if it's your birthday you know what it is you get rum from plum one winner with a birthday could possibly win rum from plum you got to get a chad cheese.com slash free

J.T. O'Donnell (14:24.662)

Mm.

J.T. O'Donnell (14:30.55)

Fingers crossed.

Joel Cheesman (14:37.749)

That's right, Chad. Another trip around the sun for Shelly Billinghurst, another Canadian, Matthew Brigham, Jeff the doctor retired, Dickie Chasen's, calm. Quinnen. Well, that's Irish. Jacqueline Adair, Jeanette leads Matt Soroka, Sean Campbell, Madison, Richard, Stephanie, Trasic, Caitlin fail, Bruce Carey, Kevin Robinson, Sarah Grossman. And last but not least, Chad.

The Chad (14:41.924)

I love her.

Joel Cheesman (15:05.597)

You and I, if you know you know, celebrate another birthday this coming week. Happy birthday, Chad.

The Chad (15:12.75)

A lot of superstars, a lot of superstars. And they'll get a chance to see us in Nebworth. That's right, we're traveling thanks to Shaker Recruitment Marketing. But next on board for events is Wreckfest in Nebworth July 10th. Who's excited about this one? JT, you excited? Is this your first one?

Joel Cheesman (15:15.455)

You

J.T. O'Donnell (15:21.213)

Bye!

Joel Cheesman (15:21.579)

Ooh.

J.T. O'Donnell (15:32.864)

So excited, kicking off my vacation. Psyched. Absolutely.

The Chad (15:36.92)

Freaking awesome. Yeah, she's gonna be at the festival. I mean, if you've never been to RecFest, come on kids, come on kids. This is like the Lollapalooza of recruitment events. It's outside, it's a festival, and I think around noon or 1's when the beer starts flowing. So you get to learn, you get to connect with your peers. Hopefully you've got all your peers, all your friends, got the whole office there, and you get to learn, enjoy, and just get that gel, that wonderful gel happening.

Joel Cheesman (15:52.171)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (16:06.486)

within the actual organization. It's the only way to do it. That's the bonding.

Joel Cheesman (16:11.467)

And rumor has it one Stephen McGrath is gonna be there. Is that true?

The Chad (16:14.518)

yes. Yes. You're going to Nebworth, Stephen.

J.T. O'Donnell (16:14.91)

you

Joel Cheesman (16:21.259)

That's right. taking the stage is no way, sis, Chad. That's right. They're back. The Oasis cover band, the real Oasis is on tour this summer. But if you can't make that, it's a lot cheaper to go to a direct fest, get some good stuff, get some, get somewhere and feel like, feel like the rock and roll star that you all, that you all are.

J.T. O'Donnell (16:36.564)

It's going to sound the same.

The Chad (16:39.362)

We're all gonna be there. Emmy's gonna be taking the stage. Mo's gonna be taking the stage. JT's gonna be taking, I mean, you guys are probably gonna be everywhere.

J.T. O'Donnell (16:40.3)

Thank

Joel Cheesman (16:44.135)

Mm-hmm. Damn.

J.T. O'Donnell (16:46.558)

No, I'm going to be anybody that's a newbie that's listening to this. We're going to form a posse. We're just going to have the newbie posse. No stage needed. Let's go message me. That's all good. It's going to be fun.

Joel Cheesman (16:50.921)

You better show up. Don't... Don't...

Joel Cheesman (16:56.683)

Don't tease us with that stuff.

Joel Cheesman (17:05.009)

Alright, it's clown time.

That's right. The corporate espionage conflict between HR tech giants, Rippling and Deal has intensified. Now implicating a third unicorn, Boston based HR software firm, Globalization Partners. That sounds made up. This new company reportedly discovered and reported similar deal conduct to federal authorities, prompting an ongoing investigation. How many spies does Deal have?

around the world. It's very thought provoking. Chad, what are your thoughts on this ongoing circus?

The Chad (17:43.66)

It's just time to sit back and continue to watch kids and watch all these things roll in. We keep hearing new companies kind of like throwing deals name out there, Rippling's name out there. So yeah, I mean, again, we've got a corporate espionage story happening. Who would have thought that would happen, right? So yeah, I mean, it's it's not surprising. I mean, if they've done this with Rippling, who's to say they haven't done this with others? Not saying that they have, but who's to say that they haven't, right? So, yeah, not not surprising, not surprising.

Joel Cheesman (18:15.083)

What's the over under on DLCO surviving at this point? Are six months, six, seven, eight a year?

The Chad (18:22.062)

I don't understand how we, mean, so we're still in kind of like the Trumpian, you you can't admit when you're wrong kind of bullshit. I wonder how long that lasts when it comes down to the investors, right? The investors, if they start losing revenue, it's gonna be an issue and he's gonna have to go. I really, I'm gonna stick to my guns on this one. I really believe they have to get rid of the entire C-suite.

Joel Cheesman (18:29.983)

Hmm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (18:38.901)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (18:51.542)

It's not just the CEO, COO. mean, everybody had to know about this. CFO is his dad. He was a part of this thing, right? So it's like they have to get rid of everybody, top down, not the staff who's doing the work, but just the C-suite.

Joel Cheesman (18:58.655)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (19:07.921)

At the CEO, can't go IPO with this dude at the head of the table, Yeah.

The Chad (19:13.004)

Yeah, and they were set to. mean, they were at least on a good run rate too.

Joel Cheesman (19:18.973)

And Rippling clearly is. They're submitting paperwork and getting this shit done. Have you ever heard of Globalization Partners? That sounds like the stepbrothers to like new company that they've created. Globalization Partners.

The Chad (19:26.21)

Yeah.

You

The Chad (19:32.822)

Yeah, EOR companies are all over the place these days. So yeah, it doesn't surprise me.

Joel Cheesman (19:36.565)

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

J.T. O'Donnell (19:39.008)

I mean, tagging in on free media, right? Like if you see something going on, why not tag in on that and get some visibility? You didn't know the name, you know now, Joel. It's pretty multisyllabic, but hey, I mean, way to rock it. You know, is the way I look at it. Meanwhile, I'm just going to say it. I've said it before, why this thing's gone down over and over again. They're doing this all over here and somebody's crushing it over here. That's going to come out of the woodwork. We see this over and over and over again. This hurts all sides involved in that right now because they're too busy dealing with, with that. So.

The Chad (19:41.24)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (19:50.859)

You did.

Joel Cheesman (19:58.207)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (20:09.482)

Mark my words, it'll be interesting to see who comes out of nowhere. But it's going to be someone who's flying under the radar.

Joel Cheesman (20:15.787)

crazy. All right, a name I will remember not globalization partners after this call is Klarna. Klarna. That's right. We talked about Klarna backpedaling on their AI first workforce last week, they're actually hiring people again, but they also doubled down this week as they prepare to go public. I can't believe this is actually news, but the the quarterly earning report was delivered by an AI

The Chad (20:19.501)

Yes.

The Chad (20:23.0)

Yes.

The Chad (20:35.798)

you

Joel Cheesman (20:45.373)

Avatar, take a quick look.

Joel Cheesman (21:09.131)

All right, you get the idea. Chad, what do we make of this? Is it a trend? Is this a one-off? Are we going to see more of these AI presentations? I mean, this is going public. Why is there CEO not up there? I get the idea, right? Like we're an AI first company. So here we are AI. I'm not sure what to make of it. What says you?

The Chad (21:31.79)

So I think Klarna CEO is becoming just as thirsty for attention and unreliable as Elon Musk. These avatars are gonna be all over the place. I whether they do stupid shit like this, CEOs, I mean, this is more of a trick than anything else. I have zero love for Klarna as a business, just to get that out there. It's a micro payment system that is nothing more than a.

J.T. O'Donnell (21:52.108)

you

Joel Cheesman (21:54.069)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (21:57.9)

micro payday loan scamming system, AKA modern day loan sharking kind of thing, right? But for the kids out there, here's a quick rundown. Klarna was prepping for IPO. So they made these bold AI claims they couldn't back up. So they needed people again, and they started with cheaper offshoring instead of hiring back. So it wasn't actually on their rolls. Made it look like it was AI to some extent.

Joel Cheesman (21:59.851)

Predatory.

The Chad (22:25.922)

Then the economy, for orange reasons, started another downward slide. So the quote unquote, you know, not doing IPO writing was on the wall, which means hire people and re equip with new AI enhanced system. So Clarence is literally going to do what they should have been doing in the first place, using people to train the AI every single day. You've got hundreds of people that are training the AI and then the AI gets smarter. And then you can start to kind of like bleed it into the system.

Joel Cheesman (22:26.187)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (22:55.671)

But they tried way too fast and he stepped on his own balls on this one.

Joel Cheesman (23:04.405)

JT, are job seekers gonna embrace this?

J.T. O'Donnell (23:05.323)

Yeah, so I'm more obsessed. Yeah, I'll go a different route about the actual AI piece of it. So I tested them. There's lots of them out there. I tested one called captions. You can download it for free on your iPhone, upload two to three minutes of video. The key is to not use a lot of hand gestures or motion so that you can look realistic. It's darn real realistic. And where I find it interesting being so focused on pro voice, you know, my talent agency is that companies are going great. This is our solution for our executive team. We want our executive team out there, but

The Chad (23:29.4)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (23:29.589)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (23:35.264)

Dang, they suck on video. So this is going to be the solution to make them sound good and look good. And as this technology gets better and better, pretty seamless. And so all that says to me is that we're going to be looking even more so now for authentication that the video is original, that it is real. And the thing that you notice about it is it's a little too perfect. You know, where's the skip, the stutter? Where's the natural inflection in the voice versus sounding melodic?

The Chad (23:52.014)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (24:02.382)

Where's the humanity?

J.T. O'Donnell (24:03.794)

Right. Like exactly. And so you're just going to see very quickly the need for that. Hey, here's the little sticker on the bottom that says this is authentically me. You know, like this is a real recording. This is not an AI recording. And I believe that that will come soon enough. But what it does tell you is that everyone will be required to do video. And I've said this a million times over every single person listening on this call. I don't care what your level is. If you don't understand, you're going to have to authenticate yourself on video. You're an ostrich with the head in the sand within two years, everyone will have to do this. And so.

The Chad (24:21.602)

Yes. Yes.

J.T. O'Donnell (24:33.706)

You know, get started, you know, stop with the face for radio, get over yourself. You have to go into interviews. You have to meet with people. You have to talk to people. Video is just another form of doing that, you know? And so get comfortable as opposed to relying on the AI like he did. Cause yeah, I felt like.

The Chad (24:48.238)

Joel never thought we would do video. Joel never thought we would do video and then look what we're doing.

J.T. O'Donnell (24:51.496)

No. Here we are. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (24:57.013)

So much of going public is the story. Numbers work and I know that that is obviously a big part of it, but people want to know what your story is, what your vision is, who's leading this, who's steering this ship. And to me, this AI narrative only works for Klarna. I don't see every company coming forth or having this something be standard. there is a threat, like this is a really good video.

The Chad (25:01.166)

Too much.

Joel Cheesman (25:26.827)

Like if I just not know it was AI, I would probably do a second take. Like, that a real person? Like, no, it's not. It would take me a while and it's just going to get better and better and better. So at some point we will be able to just have me on the podcast and you don't know if it's me or an avatar and we'll get there at some point. But this only works in my opinion for Klarna because they are an AI first AI workplace story.

And although they are hiring people again, I mean, they've been able to shrink the company from 5,000 to 3000 because of AI at the end of the video, they talk all about how AI we're an AI first company. So it only works for them. I don't think if you launch a new EV that you could do this. I don't think, Elon's avatar is going to be the same kind of impact as this. People want to know the human beings behind it. They want to know the story. They want to know, they want to feel something when they invest in a company. It's not just about the numbers.

and sense.

The Chad (26:21.358)

We talked about this before the story does matter unless it's just bullshitting right and in this case They're bullshitting he was bullshitting the market, which I would call fraud When you're saying that you're doing something and you're telling investors that you're doing something and you're doing something entirely different Hey, we're going strictly AI. no, they're offshoring. That's bullshit. That's fraud So that's not a story. That's a bullshit fucking a lie and the same thing with fucking Elon Musk

Joel Cheesman (26:29.674)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (26:34.975)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (26:41.567)

Yeah.

The Chad (26:49.912)

How long has he been talking about these robo taxis? It's like, yes, I totally get it, but the thing is, we have gotten so far away from the numbers that we're believing bullshit left and right. We need to focus, there has to be a good blend, but right now it's less on the numbers and it's more about what's your vision. Well, his vision is a bunch of shit at this point.

Joel Cheesman (26:54.24)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (27:13.161)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of Tesla investors were wished there wasn't so much Elon out there. Maybe it was a little less Elon would probably be good for that company. It'll be really interesting when they when these guys go public, like are people going to buy the shit? they not? Because the market has a way of correcting a lot of this shit. And if the market says the numbers don't add up, the whatever the what do you guys are doing? We don't like it, the markets gonna but if the market rewards them,

J.T. O'Donnell (27:28.204)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (27:41.129)

You may see a lot more AI, may see a lot more reports and earnings and things that are automated.

The Chad (27:46.638)

I just hate, I hate the fucking product. It's micro loan sharking is what it is. I hate it. I hate it. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (27:52.881)

I'm yeah. Yeah. Micro, not so much sometimes.

hurt. I'm hurt. All right, guys, let's talk about automation gone wrong. And JT, this one's right up your right up your alley. Interviews, interviews are who Okay, the increasing use of AI powered job interviews is starting to be met with skepticism and frustration from job seekers on social media. While some acknowledge the potential benefits of AI and screening more candidates a growing number of users.

The Chad (28:03.918)

J.T. O'Donnell (28:05.676)

What?

Joel Cheesman (28:26.601)

are finding the experience impersonal, dehumanizing and time consuming. JT, you talked to a lot of job seekers. I'm sure a lot of them have dealt with these automated interviews. Your thoughts.

J.T. O'Donnell (28:39.902)

Yeah, I mean, it's heightened by the fact of what's going on right now. You know, in all my years of doing this, this is way worse than 2008. You know, there's a lot of highly educated white collar workers out there that are scratching their heads going what's wrong. And so they don't understand how bad the market is. So it's easy to blame the AI when in reality, everybody's experiencing it. It's not a you problem. It's a the market problem. But you want to look to blame somewhere. And so it's really easy to say it's the AI screening and

The Chad (29:04.238)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (29:09.94)

You know, I'm not getting my shot to speak to someone. And if I did, you know, they would see I'm the candidate for the job. Well, there's a thousand of you. Even if you got that shot, it doesn't mean you would get the interviewer move forward in the job. And I think that's been really hard and technology is always the easiest thing to blame. So, you know, I see job seekers, secret frustration at all time high. Where I get more worried is about when they're forced to do things like autonomous video interviewing, where that video captured of them is going to somebody else and is owned by somebody else.

and things like that that are really disturbing for them. And so I try to remind them to not use job boards and mass supply online and do all the things that just aren't a good use of your time and honestly just make you feel bad about yourself psychologically. And instead learn to do the smart things, the more intentional things, the more focused things to be a job shopper, not a job seeker, which will make it feel more human to you and you also happen to get better results.

Joel Cheesman (30:02.826)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (30:07.626)

Yeah, I mean, we're going to keep using the technology. Some of it will fail, but it's not going to go away. know, AI is going to get more more sophisticated. And someday I'm going to be a candidate talking about what I know. And that's going to turn into a bot that goes and talks to a recruiter. And they're going to have a conversation and eventually get to the place that, we should meet in person, right? Like all of that's coming, not in 10 years, but in two years. I'm already seeing some of it now. So it's bad before it gets better, but you've got a heightened market right now that's making it feel worse and hence the job seeker frustration.

Joel Cheesman (30:12.863)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (30:28.011)

you

J.T. O'Donnell (30:37.365)

Easy to blame.

The Chad (30:39.192)

So quote from the article, the experience of auditioning for a computer can feel somewhat surreal, end quote. Yeah, our robot overlords have arrived, This is, you're gonna get used to it, you're gonna have to get used to it. Some companies are gonna be different. Some companies are gonna have actual humans. Some companies are gonna have avatars like the Clarn avatar that you just saw, and you're not gonna be able to notice the difference until maybe later.

But I think we could get rid of all the weirdness by doubling down on the weirdness. Stick with me, JT, stick with me. Do you remember Max Headroom? Yeah, the 1980s, in the 1980s, Max Headroom, a virtual TV host, a fake AI generated talking head, he was one of the early Klarna guys, with a stuttering, glitchy voice and fast talking sarcasm, complete with slick back,

J.T. O'Donnell (31:17.504)

Yes.

The Chad (31:36.43)

plastic hair, this guy could be the answer and could be the interviewer. Go ahead and roll it, Joel, so that the...

The Chad (32:10.702)

Max.

The Chad (32:18.892)

I Max Headroom's the answer, kids. That's it. We switch over a thing. We've got Max and maybe a Maude Headroom. Who knows? But we could make that happen.

Joel Cheesman (32:29.141)

It would actually be really good branding if a company was like, you know what? We're not even going to try to fake you out. Like this is a robot and maybe actually put a robot, you know, like do some shit like that. That would be funny. So, so what's happening is on tick tock and other social media is that people are actually recording the automated interview for tick tock and other social media. So what tends to be happening is there's glitches in these programs and they just repeat over and over.

The Chad (32:38.424)

You

The Chad (32:48.472)

Glitchy.

J.T. O'Donnell (32:48.95)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (32:58.539)

and people are recording this and embarrassing the whole process. I think it's probably time for a little history lesson.

For the kids out there, some of you might be too young to remember the black hole. Let me introduce you to the black hole. The black hole was I submit my resume and I never hear shit from anybody. It's total silence. Still happening. Okay. So, so now for a while it was like, holy shit, someone's replying at the time was probably chat bot initially text and whatever came back like, holy cow. And we didn't care that it was a bot because we're actually getting engagement.

The Chad (33:22.542)

Still happening.

J.T. O'Donnell (33:23.158)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (33:40.805)

actually like going back and forth with a company as opposed to just not hearing anything and maybe getting a postcard in the mail six weeks later saying thanks for applying to the job. So I'm with JT. This is going to happen. Companies are not going to go back and say, we're going to hire people to interview you. Like that's, that's not going to be a thing. The tech will get better. They'll look more like the clarinet guy and less like Max Headroom.

J.T. O'Donnell (33:58.732)

Like that.

Joel Cheesman (34:06.643)

And this is, that's how resume, that's how interviews are going to happen. Now I think there are going to be some positions where I'm not going to talk to a robot. I'm a, I'm a SVP or I'm a whatever, like for some positions, this isn't going to happen. But if you're at the level of high freak, know, high frequency turnover, entry level seasonal stuff, like this is your reality. And my question is, would you rather go back to the black hole where you heard nothing or getting max headroom during your interview?

J.T. O'Donnell (34:36.268)

More, let me build on that though, okay? Because the other thing I think we did was we made applying easy and we made people lazy. At the end of the day, you're a business of one selling your services to an employer, okay? They are going to pay. Now, yes, you want them to have a great candidate experience. We've talked all about that and you want it to be a good partnership. I get all that, so don't come at me folks. But what we've lost is the fact that if you want to reduce the amount of candidates you get, if you want candidates that are more passionate, the way you make them jump through hoops is you give them the tools and the ability

Joel Cheesman (34:46.955)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (35:05.643)

to put skin in the game in the way that will serve you. And this is where it's been broken for too long. So I'll give you a great example in full disclosure. I advise this company, but McCoy just dropped the newest version of their app. And this is what it does. You log in, you upload your resume, your LinkedIn profile. You give it a job URL, job posting. It reads it, it scans it. tells you what the top pain points are. And it tells you what four videos you should record. Do you want a script? Let's pull the script out of your job history and let's put it on a teleprompter and let's record it for one minute or less videos.

Let's put it on a URL and let's send it to a hiring manager. Let's send it to a recruiter. The recruiter now sees the real person first interview. That skin in the game separates you. You're not going to do that for a thousand jobs. You're going to do it for the ones you actually care about. It's going to reduce the amount of applicants, increase the quality and allow it to sit fully with the job seeker. That's the kind of technology that is out there and happening and working right now. And it's going to be taking over in the next year. So we're going to keep hearing about all these low end.

The Chad (35:47.491)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (36:02.346)

you know, garbage in garbage out cheap AI versions, but it's going to get more and more sophisticated. And the job seeker has to accept that it is their job to sell themselves, whether you like it or not. So use tools like this to make a value impact. You know, it's the way that I look at it. And I, know, I'm always really honest with them about that job seekers have lost sight of that. You know, they can complain all they want about recruiters and HR and everything else, but you want a job that pays thousands of dollars. What are you doing to get that job? And so.

The Chad (36:10.658)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (36:30.366)

Again, I'm an advocate for the job seeker, but I think in some ways we've left them off the hook a little too much.

Joel Cheesman (36:36.329)

and they're not stupid. Like I've always said, eventually robots are going to interview robots. And the only time human beings interact is when they show up for the job. And I appreciate the take, but I also think like it's funny how employers will clutch the pearls when they go, my God, job seekers are automating their job search process and lazy apply and all. So yeah, so it's, this is just going to shake out to where

The Chad (36:45.57)

Your avatar talks to my avatar, yeah.

The Chad (36:57.87)

Kind of like job seekers are ghosting us.

Joel Cheesman (37:06.288)

Applicants have bots that are going to bat for them at these companies and interviews and companies are going to bat with bots and it's just bots on bots. And I don't know how it's going to shake out, but it's, it's all very dystopian and scary, scary to me. It's all very scary. Bots on it could go very right as well. It could go very, very right chat. All right, let's take a quick break. yeah, we'll be right back.

The Chad (37:20.91)

That's on bot. could go wrong very quickly.

J.T. O'Donnell (37:24.524)

I'll talk to you

The Chad (37:25.644)

Yeah

Joel Cheesman (37:38.549)

Chad, they've been hybridating for a while, but my God, stock of unicorns is back, baby, and I am here for it. Utah-based AwardCo has raised $165 million in a Series B round, surpassing a $1 billion valuation. The company plans to use the funds to expand its global recognition platform, accelerate product innovation.

J.T. O'Donnell (38:02.88)

to say.

Joel Cheesman (38:07.709)

and deepen employee engagement. The company now serves 6 million users across 160 companies. Chad, your thoughts on this newly minted unicorn in the employment space.

The Chad (38:19.842)

getting a headache. think I might need a McDonald's Diet Coke and a fucking Big Mac or whatever the fuck they call it. So one billion valuation for a recognition platform. Am I getting that right? Well, you know, your labor market leadership and just overall culture is complete and utter fucking wreck when you need a recognition platform.

Joel Cheesman (38:26.26)

Yeah, you do.

J.T. O'Donnell (38:29.164)

Thank

Joel Cheesman (38:34.827)

Mm-hmm. Blame the kids.

J.T. O'Donnell (38:35.99)

Mm.

The Chad (38:49.218)

and it's getting that much fucking cash. So we talk about the disconnect almost every week from leadership to the frontline workers. Leaders are making huge comps and the people doing all of the actual work, day-to-day work.

They're making not a living wage in many cases, right? And yet we think a pat on the back from a fucking platform is gonna do this. We think that's the answer. That's where we need to come back to reality. How the fuck does a company like this get $165 million, get a billion dollar valuation when that's not even the fucking problem? That's what bothers me. That's what bothers me.

J.T. O'Donnell (39:25.792)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (39:29.676)

Yeah. There's a book I've talked about a lot called Punished by Reports by a guy named Alfie Cohn, it written in the sixties, anticipated the problems with A's, praise and other bribes. And they wrote about this, how we've conditioned a generation from a very early age, right? With the carrot so that they've knocked all the intrinsic motivation out of people. It's all become extrinsic, but extrinsic motivation is very hollow, right? You're psyched for a second until you're not. So the dopamine hit of the award is what you're holding them onto. But all it does is

The Chad (39:44.162)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (39:58.75)

over time just make them super depressed because they're not internally intrinsically motivated to do anything. And it explains why so many people get into jobs and careers where they're just miserable because what they pursued a paycheck and they pursued the ability to answer the question. What do you do in a way that made them feel like somebody respects them, right? Regardless of how it made them feel like we have an epidemic problem here, particularly in the U S. So to see a company like this expanding

Honestly, all it's going to do is create more of that dissatisfaction, that lack of intrinsic motivation. It's focused on the wrong thing, in my opinion.

Joel Cheesman (40:35.071)

We actually have some historical footage of a review, employee review from 1964.

Joel Cheesman (40:48.683)

So we've, we've, we've come a long way, which, which leads me to my history lesson number two. Yeah. So let me, let me take you, let me take you back to a trade show in a let's call it circa 2001. Chad, you'll remember this booth, successories. was full of people in three piece suits with a myriad of plaques, trophies, banners, et cetera.

The Chad (40:53.685)

not another one. my God.

J.T. O'Donnell (40:56.34)

all about the history.

Joel Cheesman (41:16.523)

Rewards used to be here's a plaque for your service at the company and that's this. Yes. And success stories is still there. Uh, so I will say at least this is a step in the right direction. I'd much rather have Uber eats and, uh, AirPods, uh, than I would a trophy or plaque in my, in my room. Look, the kids today are insecure and they're dead inside and they need this ongoing affirmation that they matter. And a company like this.

The Chad (41:19.498)

yeah. We saw them all at SHRM.

Joel Cheesman (41:44.235)

The timing is right. Yes, Chad. I know that you and I old people are like, what this company got? This is a billion dollar company. You got to be kidding me, but the kids need the Dopa hits. They need the hits. They need the gifts. They need the stuff like in this company. Look, you got bonus Lee in a similar situation achievers. There are all kinds of companies like this. And apparently the investors look at it and the kids need these real time nudges that they're special.

The Chad (41:50.926)

ridiculous.

The Chad (41:56.158)

retrained.

Joel Cheesman (42:12.873)

and that they're snowflakes and that they are one of a kind. And this company is right there to profit off of it.

The Chad (42:21.868)

J.T. O'Donnell (42:23.34)

I can't even, I can't until they're 35 and they wake up and they're, miserable and they, yeah.

The Chad (42:26.742)

Again, getting the headaches.

J.T. O'Donnell (42:32.268)

Ugh.

Joel Cheesman (42:33.877)

All right, more good news, everybody. Tariffs. President Donald Trump and American retail giant Walmart traded stern words this week over the impact of tariffs after the company's announcement of impending price hikes drew ire from the president who accused Walmart of unfairly blaming the tariffs for their unexpected or their expected price increases and ordering the world's largest retailer to quote, eat the tariffs.

The Chad (42:36.442)

Jesus Christ. my God.

Joel Cheesman (43:02.099)

and not pass the import costs on to consumers. Chad, the president keeps going after good American businesses. What's your take?

The Chad (43:11.832)

I think we should allow a good American business to talk a little bit about tariffs. We had Beth Benicki on the show a couple of weeks ago. She's been all over the media. She graced the Chad and Cheese podcast. And we got a little clip. So go ahead and play it.

The Chad (44:08.632)

So, much like Trump said with Mexico's going to build the wall, news alert, Mexico didn't build the wall, then Trump said that tariffs would be paid, would not be paid by Americans, but by other countries, news alert, as everyone with half a brain predicted, they're paid by Americans. And in this case, the administration is afraid that if...

J.T. O'Donnell (44:10.209)

Hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (44:30.401)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (44:33.55)

the 5,000 Walmart stores, close to 5,000 Walmart stores in the US start raising prices, there's gonna be a fucking rebellion. So he's pressuring Walmart to eat the tariffs. He's gonna be pressuring a lot of companies because we see Ford, Subaru, a lot of the auto companies saying they're gonna have to raise the car prices by anywhere from $750 to $2,000. And that, again, depending on the actual tariffs,

Joel Cheesman (44:52.491)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (45:02.114)

That could, that could prospectively go up. the biggest misdirection of this entire debacle is this administration caused this high priced tariff chaos. And now they want credit for starting to clean up the process. They fucking the mess they fucking made. Period.

Joel Cheesman (45:29.087)

What's so stupid about this? So the first big one was Amazon. Like, no, you can't put in your little listings with the price increase. And now it's like, Walmart, no, you gotta eat the price of this. Like, the whole point of tariffs that we were sold is that more stuff would be made in America, more jobs would be coming back to America. If he's telling...

The Chad (45:31.992)

You

The Chad (45:38.678)

Exactly. Transparency. Stop that.

J.T. O'Donnell (45:39.649)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (45:57.255)

Walmart to eat the cost, you're basically saying Walmart don't raise prices, but the whole point of the tariffs is so that prices are increased on those items, so that people behaviorally start buying stuff that's American because the Chinese stuff is too expensive. So it makes me think that Trump has no like understanding of tariffs because the whole idea is like, well, maybe stop bringing in China stuff, as opposed to like, well, you should eat the tariff.

The Chad (46:07.31)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (46:17.984)

Idea? Yes.

Joel Cheesman (46:26.891)

It just, it makes me think that this thing is unhinged. There's no strategy. It scares me. And I think that most companies, big companies are going to eat this. They're going to eat it for a year and a half and they're, they're gonna, they're gonna pray to baby Jesus that the house goes big Democrat and that, that laws are passed that he can't

The Chad (46:43.169)

if they can.

The Chad (46:47.598)

You

Joel Cheesman (46:52.981)

do tariffs or the tariffs get rolled back. But I think most companies are taking this sort of strategy of like, look, just shut the fuck up, eat the tariffs, whatever Trump says do. And I think you're going to like he went after Apple. said Apple. Okay, yeah, make them in India. But that's not why we did this. Like it's you need to start making these in America. It just doesn't make any sense. Like again, he doesn't understand what's going on. And Apple's playing by the rules. It says, okay, China is too expensive.

The Chad (47:14.584)

Not gonna happen.

Joel Cheesman (47:22.603)

We'll go to India. It's not, you can't go to India. And he's playing this like socialist game of like, I'm going to control where you go and where you produce. But I think Apple and Tim Cook being Tim Cook is going to say, Mr. President, you know, the president's correct and we're going to make moves and we're going to make investments here. But in their, in their back room where they're talking, it's going to be like, look, let's just suck this shit up for a year and a half, wait it out, put tons of money behind Democrats that are running, in

The Chad (47:45.464)

Wait it out.

Joel Cheesman (47:51.861)

for Congress next year and a half and senators that are up. Like that's where we need to be pointed and let's just suck it up until now or for the time being and that's where we are. But the big picture is this is how it's supposed to be. This is what Trump wanted like price increases, buy American, jobs come to America. It's self-defeating to say Walmart should eat these tariffs because you're not achieving what you wanted to achieve in the first place.

The Chad (48:17.486)

Well, most of what Walmart has is from China and Beth, who was just on, she's an American company and her shit's produced in China. mean, and we had a whole podcast going down the math of why she did that and why she can't produce here in the US. I mean, there are reasons behind that. And there's no way in hell Apple's pulling out of China. There's no way. They spend hundreds of billions. I say that again, hundreds of billions of dollars in China every fucking day.

Joel Cheesman (48:23.189)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (48:43.963)

yeah.

The Chad (48:47.182)

year.

Joel Cheesman (48:48.617)

and every phone not sold in America is made in China. And if this gets reversed, your iPhones will be made in China, like once again. Once again. by the way, Beth is a small company that can't call the White House and say, you know, like she can't eat it. She can't survive. look.

The Chad (48:51.842)

Yeah. Yeah.

The Chad (49:00.983)

Yes.

J.T. O'Donnell (49:03.126)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:10.357)

shit's going to hit the fan. If there's empty shelves at Christmas and back to school and all these things that people go to Walmart for and expect to see product on the shelves, shit is going to hit the fan. and it sounds like from her, the 30%, she can, she can deal with that and there'll be product back on the shelves, but, she's, she's hurting. And so are a lot of other small businesses. Yep.

The Chad (49:19.032)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (49:32.344)

Still gonna have to raise prices.

J.T. O'Donnell (49:34.184)

isn't, isn't, isn't the MO here, I'm going to create the chaos, and then I'm going to be the savior from the chaos. And so you're going to remember me as the savior. So that idea of nothing being on the shelves at Walmart, he'll want to swoop in and fix that. And then he'll take the airtime and say, look what I did. I saved Christmas. You know, I don't think we've ever, right. Right. That's what I'm saying. We've never had, if you've ever seen that entrepreneur that's

The Chad (49:53.134)

that's what this is happening now. 145 to 30 because there's going to be, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:54.485)

That's.

J.T. O'Donnell (50:02.44)

just wild enough that starts a company. And if you really post-mortem their whole journey, there are as many failures as there were successes. But if at end of the day, they end up the success, that's the story that gets written. Right. And most of time they can't run their own company when it gets to a certain size, because just the way they built that business is not the way you sustain that business going forward. And you sit and look at it, what he's doing, nobody knows how to react to it. It's like watching something chaotically spin and everyone, like you said, is just going to sit back for a year and a half and wait and hope it settles. It's not going to settle. This is a whole

Joel Cheesman (50:30.315)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (50:32.34)

different way of that he likes to sit and live in and conduct business in. Right. And so it's crazy.

The Chad (50:38.114)

chaos.

Joel Cheesman (50:39.575)

can correct. I mean, if the house goes all damn, then it grinds to a lot of this stuff grinds to a halt, I think.

J.T. O'Donnell (50:48.608)

Fair, fair, but again, we're a year and a half out, which doesn't solve. So we also type for year and a half while we watch this, this crazy up and down, create the chaos, save everyone from the chaos, create the chaos. And he understands cycles. He understands media cycles. He understands sign beds better than anyone. We were talking about that before we went live on the show. He has mastered the art of, as long as I get it out there, if someone's heard it, people run with it, I win. And so, you know, because it's out there.

The Chad (50:55.842)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (51:05.006)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (51:10.648)

Could be the biggest lie in the world, but it doesn't matter because it's out there.

Joel Cheesman (51:14.535)

This is the 4D chess theory that Trump is behaving in such a way that no one else understands it, but it all makes sense in the end. I'm not sure I'm buying it. I'm not sure I'm buying it. I'm not sure I'm buying it. All right, guys, let's take a quick break. Look, if you like what you've been hearing, if you like the show, please leave us a review. Please subscribe YouTube, wherever you listen to podcasts, we want to hear from you.

The Chad (51:22.838)

after the economy collapses. Yeah, that's good.

J.T. O'Donnell (51:25.324)

You never know.

Joel Cheesman (51:39.243)

And definitely there's not enough of you when I go to conferences that have signed up for free shit Look, we'll send you stuff literally like just go to Chad cheese comm slash free or click the free link and sign up for shit, dude It's awesome. It's awesome. It's awesome. No other podcast in our space does this do it? We'll be right back

J.T. O'Donnell (51:45.78)

It's good stuff.

The Chad (51:50.924)

No marketing emails, none of that shit.

Joel Cheesman (52:02.751)

The Senate has unanimously passed like everybody, everybody the no tax on tips act that offers a $25,000 tax deduction for cash tips for workers earning up to $160,000. The bill now heads to the house where it could pass standalone or as part of a larger GOP package. Chad, your thoughts on no tax on tips.

The Chad (52:28.75)

I mean, it sounds great, but no tax on tips is total bullshit. It's a massive misdirection. Tips are supposed to be a little thank you for good service, not something you depend on to feed your fucking family. So to me, it's pretty simple. Pay your people a living wage. Your employees should not have to live day to day off of the tips they make. And many people do. So I know, I know, I know. Welcome to America, Chad. This is a fucked up system. It's how it is. Okay, okay, I get it.

then why put a no tax cap of $25,000 on tips? While government spends all their time taxing the hell out of the lower and middle bracket earners, wages have barely moved at 14 % since 1978, while motherfucking CEOs see comps in the same timeframe over 1300%, 1300%, 1300%. We get excited about not taxing tips.

It's a misdirection. Don't fall for it. Pay a living wage. Your people and your customers deserve it.

Joel Cheesman (53:39.243)

JT.

J.T. O'Donnell (53:41.29)

Yeah, I mean, I'm with you. don't think they should be taxed on that. And I think that the base rate should be a lot higher and I've just seen the results of it. So I have a daughter that worked at a place where they were all paid starting 17 up to 20 an hour smoothie joint. Think about that 17 to 20 an hour, right? Base. And those kids were pulling in another 20 to $25 an hour in tips. mean, these kids busted their humps. That place had a line out the door. The vibe was amazing. They were all able to pay for school. It was just such a beautiful.

The Chad (53:53.742)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (54:10.856)

example of that piece. I also know another place right now that it's a flat 25 % tip is included in everything in this particular club, right? So it's a club where you go in and you eat, you walk out the door and you're just charged your card, right? But you're going to complain heavily if the staff wasn't amazing. So once again, they're guaranteed, they're all heavily invested in making sure you have a great experience because the setup is so good for them. They're making this a great career. It's a career.

The Chad (54:25.166)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (54:39.338)

of being incredible at customer service. And I think not realizing that, I mean, we're continuing to just decimate that field. If you've been places lately where people just don't care the kind of service they're giving you, right? They're completely checked out. think, you know, giving them more incentive for that would be better. And I'm with you on the wage piece. It's got to go up.

Joel Cheesman (55:03.37)

So.

Joel Cheesman (55:07.819)

Senate hardly ever does anything unanimously. The fact that they all voted for this is scary to me because if they all agree on something, I'm worried about that in today's world. it's so political because it's so easy. It sounds so good. How could you be against this? And it's really frustrating because they can do this, but they can't do the hard work of

The Chad (55:16.814)

Polling, polling.

Joel Cheesman (55:35.947)

minimum wage law that's fair to everyone. And I think that to be distracted by wow, look what look what the government did is really is really a shame. Roughly 2.5 % of the workforce earns most of what they they do by by tips. So it's a very small percentage of the workforce. And frankly, a lot of them don't make enough to be taxed federally anyway.

The Chad (55:37.442)

Yes, yes, yes.

J.T. O'Donnell (55:38.294)

facts.

Joel Cheesman (56:05.597)

What about the people washing dishes in the kitchen? What about the cooks that are making the food in this same restaurant? how do they feel knowing that the wait staff isn't getting taxed on the tips? Like, why can't we just bite the bullet, raise minimum wage to a place where people can be proud of what they do?

Really, let's turn this back to me. I want to be able to tap and go when I get a drink at the bar. I don't want to like think about what am I tipping on this? I got it. I got to get the check. I got to wait for this shit. Let me tap and go. Let me tap and go. That's really what this is all about. Let me be more like Chad is really what I'm saying. What I'm saying.

J.T. O'Donnell (56:34.22)

Thank

J.T. O'Donnell (56:38.23)

here.

The Chad (56:49.134)

Yes, Europe's tip culture much different obviously than the US tip culture. And again, Europe pays a living wage for the most part. I mean, tipping isn't even a thing to be quite frank, unless you're like in a big city like London or something like that, which is really like a little America. But the big difference here between the two is that in the US, it's all about turning tables. So they want you in and out as fast as you can possibly get in and out. It's because they have to get to that next tip.

Joel Cheesman (56:58.923)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (57:06.922)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (57:19.116)

Right here, I have dinner, it's three hours. It's three, nobody's rushing me. Now do I also have somebody coming over and saying, hey, would you like this? Hey, would you like this? Hey, would you like this? No, usually I have to kind of like put my hand up to get something. But I mean, that's the big difference. And again, if you're paying your people a living wage, then they shouldn't have to live.

J.T. O'Donnell (57:22.7)

Yeah.

The Chad (57:44.682)

off of tips and that's and that's to me the big thing and the whole misdirection is as Joel had said they should be doing bigger things much bigger things like pushing the wage up so that this isn't even an issue.

Joel Cheesman (57:53.579)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (57:58.091)

Yeah. Tip exhaustion has hit America. Everything is a fucking tip. And by the way, Chad, the, the, the States that have implemented $20 an hour, uh, minimum wage, remember like cats and dogs are going to be living together. Mass hysteria hasn't happened. Yeah.

The Chad (58:00.76)

haha

J.T. O'Donnell (58:01.324)

Hmm. Facts. Well, it's down too, isn't it? think, hmm, it's down.

The Chad (58:14.884)

yeah, it's working. Well, in what happens is when you pay all those more people more money, what do they do with it? They don't put it into fucking stocks and bonds and buy fucking yachts. No, they don't. They put it in the fucking economy. The very next day in many cases, right? So it's like, if you want to get your economy rolling and churning, pay the lower and middle section of the economy. Those people pay them more because they're going to spend more.

Joel Cheesman (58:25.099)

Spend it. Yep.

J.T. O'Donnell (58:26.814)

spend it.

J.T. O'Donnell (58:30.59)

and greed.

Joel Cheesman (58:45.035)

And get rid of tariffs because that's a regressive tax too.

The Chad (58:45.848)

Duh. Yes, duh.

J.T. O'Donnell (58:45.932)

Thank

If you're trading your time for money and somebody's willing to give you more money for your time, you're going to hang onto that job, right? It's just the whole, it's obvious. If I was running a business like that right now, I'd, I'd raise rates just to get the better talent, get them to stay.

Joel Cheesman (59:01.023)

Think about how better recruiting and retention would be if you did that. It works, Chad, just like my dad jokes. That's right. That's right. Here we go. What do you call a redhead with a yeast infection? What do you call a redhead with a yeast infection?

The Chad (59:03.918)

you

no.

The Chad (59:14.278)

my God. my God. I don't even want to think of a yeast infection for God's sakes. Go ahead, go ahead.

Joel Cheesman (59:23.956)

A gingerbread.

Joel Cheesman (59:28.363)

We out!

The Chad (59:31.01)

We out. my God.

J.T. O'Donnell (59:32.104)

We out.