Things are getting a tad heavy, huh? Maybe you just need some Chad & Cheese to make it all better?
On this week's show:
Facebook says, "Lower pay for you!"
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
James Ellis: James Ellis from the Talent Cast. You may not be aware of this, but a couple years ago I lost a bet, so now I'm contractually obligated to say nice things about Chad and Cheese. Well, I took that, let's say lemon, and turned it into lemonade. I took interviews from Chad and Cheese and turned it into a book, but I added a lot of other people you're going to want to talk to. It's called Talent Chooses You, it is Hiring Better with Employer Branding, and it is available on Amazon, June 15th. You should go and buy it. Bye.
Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Oh yeah.
Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Joel: How about some good news? The NBA is coming back and Vegas casinos are opening back up for business. Yeah. Sorry. That's the best I got. Welcome to The Chad and Cheese Podcast, I'm your co-host, Joel, Lordy I need a haircut, Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad, what the fuck is going on? Sowash.
Joel: Yeah, I don't know. On this week show, SmashFly goes X-rated, Facebook says, "Lower pay for you," and who gives a crap. Time to exhale as we take a quick break and pay some bills.
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Joel: 2020 feels longer than that ad.
Chad: Yeah. What the fuck is going on, man? I know that people probably listen because they want to kind of escape what's going on out there right now. And I didn't know that 2020 could get worse and I don't want to see it get any worse than it is right now. but jeez, man, this is fucking crazy.
Joel: Yeah. Obviously, the George Floyd incident, which all of our listeners, at least in America, I assume the world will know about. The shootings in Louisville. Other places, we had the runner
Joel: ... Who, some people took the law in their own hands and killed an African-American guy, just running through a neighborhood.
Chad: Running while black.
Joel: Running while black. I think you and I kind of struggled with today's show and what we were going to talk about, and I think came to the conclusion that, two white guys weren't exactly the ones that people needed to hear from. But I will add this little bit of tidbit, as two guys that are nearing 50, we have some context around this. And it's happened before, and the sad thing is that it will probably happen again. And no amount of protesting, violence, any of that is going to make a difference when compared to actually voting, actually running for elected office, writing checks to candidates that you believe in, and volunteering for those candidates that you believe in. So I will just add that, as my two cents on the current state of America.
Chad: Yeah. I think I've been on several social arguments around the Black Lives Matter where individuals ask, "Well, don't all lives matter?" Well, of course, all lives fucking matter. But when it comes to the United States, for centuries, they haven't mattered as much, black lives have not mattered as much as white lives, right? From our standpoint, we need to realize that, we need to identify that's a problem, and then we don't have hopefully, the George Floyd's. And that is what sparked the protests and sparked the looting and et cetera, et cetera. So we have to identify where the problem is, and the problem lies in our ability to know what the fuck we need to do different. And equity is the big key here. We talk about it a lot on this show. It's the inequities of what we do, not just pay inequities, just every day equity in what we're looking for. And it's something we'll talk a little bit about today, but as a couple of white guys, again, Torin Ellis, who is very big in D&I, diversity, is actually on a show with my wife called Crazy and the King Podcast, check it out. We asked him, "What should a couple of white guys do?" He said, "Get on your fucking platform and scream because we need you guys as much as we need the protesters on the street." And I don't agree that voting will change it all because we've been voting for fucking years. We need people on the streets. We need these protests. And after I get done producing this today, I will have a sign and I will be protesting as well.
Joel: Yeah. We'll disagree on this. We won't be able to gauge this, but track the number of people who are in the streets this week, and how many of them won't vote, and you'd probably be surprised at the percentage that don't.
Chad: We'll see.
Joel: Less than half of our citizenry that can vote, does vote. So when you say we have been voting for years, not enough people have been voting. Trump is in office because a lot of people didn't vote that should have.
Joel: And that's the case going forward. Look, we are a country of contradictions. We have a document that we live by that says, everyone's equal, and we were built on slave labor and committed genocide against an entire people that were living here before the white guys showed up. But one thing that has rung true in the last hundred years, is everyone over 18, and isn't a felon can vote in elections, and not enough do. And that is something that can change the system. Politicians hope that you don't vote. Companies hope that the masses don't vote, but you can vote and you should. And that is the one thing that is constant in making things change around the country. We did elect a black president two terms in a row because of voting, and we can change the system now through voting as well.
Chad: So that being said, let's move on.
Joel: Headspace change. Here we go. Shout outs.
Chad: Yeah. So first shout out, Pete Suchy over at CVS Health, thanks for the props on our segment during SmashFly's Transform. That was an interesting virtual event that we had to go through yesterday. It was interesting because most of the State of Indiana, about 30 minutes before Joel and I went live, Comcast went down, the whole fucking internet went down. It was crazy. So, yeah, Pete glad I could actually get on, but only through all those wonderful people at Transform and the people throwing the show could they actually get me on voice only.
Joel: So for those who don't know, Chad gives me shit on a daily basis about my internet connectivity and speed. And the poetic justice and the irony that would have gone down had Chad not been able to join the Transform call would have been really amusing to me. He was able to get on the call, if you missed it. So he did join, but Chad, you have to admit, it would have been quite ironic had you not been able to join and I could.
Chad: You were tethering, weren't you?
Joel: I was tethered to my phone. Yeah.
Chad: Okay. So that's not even the same.
Joel: Thanks Verizon. Not the same. Shout out to virtual DJs.
Joel: So we're on transform. I didn't know these things existed, right? We have intermissions to sessions and there's a literal like DJ dude in the corner of the screen mixing sounds that are just suitable enough for middle aged people, Spandau Ballet, Taylor Swift, whatever it was. But, virtual DJ, shout out. I had no idea.
Chad: Yeah. I think Elise might've stole this from Banff. When you go to the gathering of cult brands in Banff, there's a DJ on the stage and she was rocking some tunes between sessions. But I got to say this was taking it to the next level. So Elise, and team over at SmashFly and Symphony Talent, that's a big applause right there.
Joel: Yeah. I'm not a big fan of virtual events in general, but if you throw some DJs in there and some mixologists, I might get on board with this idea.
Chad: Big shout out to Joanna Tuchoska, a new listener over in the UK. She's a Matt Alder fan, so she definitely needed the Chad and Cheese balance.
Joel: Yeah. That's some balance for you, for sure. Shout out to Bonusly, a company got 9 million this past week, so they do just kind of what you would think, they ... Referral, employee rewards, gift cards, all kinds of good stuff. I met these guys back, I think two or three years ago, they were in the startup pavilion at HR tech. And when I met him, I thought, eh, I think they're going to be all right. And sure enough, years later, they're getting millions of bucks and growing the company. So, shout out to Bonusly.
Chad: Nice. Big shout out to [Bill Barthel 00:10:14.08], listening from a meat processing plant in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Just kidding. At least, I don't think he's in meat processing plant, but we've heard so much of that lately from Iowa, I thought, why not?
Joel: Shout out to Chris Kneeland, again, sort of the Transform theme here. Chris, some of you know, we've talked to him on the show, he is the co-founder of a bunch of businesses, Communo, Gathering, cult brands or Cult ... Shit, what is it?
Joel: Cult Collective. He was a real spot, a great line, when the cameras weren't rolling was. When we were working on internet issues, we said, "Don't worry, Chris, you're all good." And he goes, "No. The biggest mistake I've ever made was agreeing to be on a show with you two clowns." As for Chris, a little bit of insight there in the background, that was some good comic relief in a stressful time.
Chad: Very nice. Big shout out to Sean Paulseth, over at ideal.com. He says the whole company listens. So here's a shout out to the entire company over at Ideal. So at ideal.com, thanks for listening. I think it's amazing the amount of companies that have either Chad Cheese listening clubs, they use our podcast for training material. I can't thank our listeners enough.
Joel: I don't know what it says about us being the educational resource for most companies, but there you have it, that's it. I don't think we've given a shout out to Transform yet, have we? SmashFly, Elise
Joel: ... The whole aim there kicked ass. We enjoyed it. Thanks for working with us through the technical issues. And I will say the prep that we had to go through for 30 minutes of online virtual talking was really belts and suspenders level preparation. So, the team over there knows their shit.
Chad: Yes. Definitely, Elise, Rupesh, and no question, Aya, Lauren, Angela, Caitlin, the whole team was relentless in finding a way to get me to connected. You're the best, especially Aya, because you sent us blunts.
SFX: Hell yeah.
Chad: But they also sent us an experience box in the mail. That was awesome. I actually used some of that essential oil stuff before getting on the podcast.
Joel: Oh, did you?
Chad: Well, calms me down. I always need that before I get on the mic with you.
Joel: Did Julie apply the lotions?
Chad: Hell yeah.
SFX: Hell yeah.
Joel: All right. I'm going to end shout outs on this, and I'm going to dive a little bit back into the state of the world. But I just want to give a shout out to LeBron James. You and I grew up in a time where athletes had voices around social issues, Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown, Bill Russell, the list goes on and on. And for 20, 30 years, athletes have been pretty silent around social issues and things that are going on. And LeBron James, who most of the world will know, basketball player, famous, he is not shy about going on social media, talking about social issues, talking about injustice. And I just think it deserves a quick shout out for LeBron James, that he's an athlete that isn't just, "Hey, Republicans buy shoes too," he's willing to put his name and his voice out there and shout out to LBJ.
Chad: Let's hope LeBron James can go and smack Drew Brees square in the fucking face. Last shout out for me, Adam Chambers, world traveler, founder of Applichat and Death Match contestant. He bought us some bourbon. So that's good stuff. Also look for the Death Match podcast to be dropping, go to chadcheese.com
Joel: Drew Brees apologized today, by the way. But let's get to the news. X-Files, SmashFlyX. You did a shred on this thing, what's going on?
Chad: It's interesting. We talked to Rupesh Nair, the CEO over at Symphony Talent in February, and talked about SmashFly, talked about Symphony Talent. Symphony Talent is a big organization, although, I don't really know much about all these cloud solutions and whatnot. And he kind of hinted that SmashFly was going to be a product. So the name wasn't going to go away, but it was going to be a product underneath Symphony Talent. If SmashFly did anything incredibly well, it was definitely marketing and sales, right?
Chad: So then yesterday we get the announcement that SmashFlyX is the new brand, it's a consolidation. So all those M-Cloud, X-Cloud, cloud clouds that Symphony Talent had before, they're all rolling up, all that technology is rolling up under one brand called SmashFlyX.
Joel: Yes, yes. You and I talk about acquisitions all the time, and kind of wonder how is the integration going to happen? What's going to happen to the brand architecture?
Joel: And speed, right? How long is this shit going to take? And considering the state of the world, Symphony and these guys turned this around really quickly. Considering SmashFly had some exodus of some talent, but at least in team and everyone over there picked up the ball and ran with it. And I think SmashFlyX is great. I love the tag, you plus us, plus your ATS equals success. And I have nothing but good things to say, and wish them success. I love that they're not tinkering with the ATS space, they seem to be remaining outside of that and being an enhancement to it. And I think that's where their lane is, and they'll continue to thrive on that. And I love the programmatic interface, which you and I both got a test drive of. Yeah, I think this is a home run for them.
Chad: Yeah. We were able, a few weeks ago, to actually jump in and get like a test drive to an extent.
Chad: And it looked great. And that's the thing, is that, if you're going to be in something all day, it's got to be pleasing to the eye. Right?
Chad: But it's got to be workable. And being able to plug all these programmatic outreach along with automation pieces and experience. Which I would assume SmashFly, the X is for experience, I'm not sure. But to be able to be that layer of experience before you dump all that Intel into an applicant tracking system, I think is really cool, and it's smart. Again, Symphony Talent is starting to really show that they have focus. This is their vision, and they're definitely fucking determined because this happened fast. And this is a shot, easily, over TMP's bow, because those motherfuckers have about 27 billion brands, none of them are consistent. They are all different and disco-joined and whatnot. So I wonder if TMP, AIA, Pernego, TalentBrew, what the fuck ever, if they finally find something, instead of having all these different pieces all over the board.
Joel: Yeah. And I think this underscores that very, very well. So many times we see acquisitions they never sort of interact with each other, integrate with each other. Sometimes they're bought just to put them out of business, or they're bought to be a standalone until like they're not a standalone anymore and they just kind of go away. Or if you're Indeed, just plug in your jobs and the same brand and interface. So again, kudos to these guys for really getting it right on the integration side.
Chad: This is an incredibly large market. So whether we're talking about Symphony or we're talking about TMP, those are only two players, and if you think about it, the amount of applicant tracking systems that are out there, for those two, to be able to try to own all of that space is going to be hard. So I think there's still tons of space for organizations out there. Like up-and-comers, you've got the Beamerys, the Candidate IDs, they just rolled out a new tech, not too long ago. It's just overall, this is the space that is exciting because it's growing and it's automating and it's making all that shit that we've had to deal with for years go away and including a great experience hopefully, for the candidate. Instead of going into that black hole, hopefully, we can start to nurture them and get them closer to our brand.
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, great experience for workers, and leading to the next story of great experience for freelancers. Communo
Chad: Some Good News, baby.
Joel: Yeah. Some Good News. You're big on this, let people know, that haven't heard about it, what it is.
Chad: Dude, Some Good News was amazing. I think they only did like eight episodes, but John Krasinski, the dude is on Jack Ryan, The Office, he's a celeb, right? But he's got surprising interview chops. He was able to pull a bunch of his celebrity friends together and they just focused really heavily on trying to bring good news to the people, instead of all this shit that's been happening in 2020. Well, ViacomCBS acquired Some Good News after a bidding war, after a bidding war. And it's going to be on CBS All Access. And dude, they did eight episodes, it's ridiculous.
Joel: What episode are we on? And no one's come to us, to buy us.
Chad: Yeah. Give us time.
Chad: Neither one of us are playing Jack Ryan on Amazon, either.
Joel: A Quiet Place, he's a good director too.
Chad: Oh, really? I did not know he did that.
Chad: John, Emily and the kids weren't staying up editing late at night. Oh no.
Chad: Post production was New York based. They had Nashville, Maiden Network handling video distribution. Calgary's Arcade ran social media and they actually had Giflytics, in New Haven, Connecticut do gif analytics. And this blew me away, the SGN, Some Good News gifs alone had more than 287 million views, just the gifs.
SFX: Hell yeah.
Chad: But this was put together by a platform, and that platform, we've been lucky enough as we talked about earlier, Chris Kneeland and Ryan Gill, we met these guys two years ago at the gathering of cult brands in Banff, Canada, where we are on stage. They asked us to come speak on stage and they're just amazing dudes. And they created this platform called Communo, which is a freelance platform that isn't like all the other ones that are erased to the bottom. These are legit dudes and women making good money, doing good stuff. And obviously SGN and all the product in the production and everything was top notch.
Joel: Yeah. And we did an interview with Ryan about the company, which you should check out on our archives if you want to learn more. But also don't forget the fact that they brought in veteran, Cindy Sonya in recently, to head up some of the operations there. And what great promotion? This was a fast company story, and I'm sure it got picked up elsewhere, but these guys have been in business two years maybe.
Joel: And to get a note like this had to be great for their business, they really are doing great things in terms of not being a race to the bottom, trying to get premium pricing for premium work and kudos to them for this great story and helping this thing happen. I'm really curious, in this work from home era, television companies and stations and networks have to be asking the question, do we, do we really need to spend all the money that we spend on studios and office space and all this, because everything I get now mostly, specifically 30 days ago, everyone was in their home with a little, you know, circle light and a Zoom connection, which is basically all this was. But you had people behind the scenes, freelancers, that were making it a quality professional video. Do television stations and networks and programs look at this and say, "Why do we have these studios and big cameras and all this?" Does that go away in some of this era or no?
Chad: I think there's an opportunity to make it go away. I think that having people on staff to be able to rip it out quicker is still going to be necessary to some extent. I think though, from Communo standpoint, since the pandemic hit, obviously many companies are cutting staff, they've had user signups go up 1400%, and the market value of posted products was up 1300%. So not only were there people, there are signups coming in from the standpoint of talent, but the actual posted projects were up dramatically as well. And I can't say this enough for Ryan, for Chris and obviously Cindy, who is an industry veteran, who's now on the team over at Communo, this is, I personally feel, a platform that freelancers can get into and not sit there and feel like they're getting screwed, right? They're actually going to be doing good work, for good shops and they're going to be doing it for good money as opposed to the other freelance platforms where you're saying, "Hey, I'll do that for 25 bucks."
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. If you're good at it, this is a place you're going to go to get top dollar for the work that you do.
Chad: And if you're an advertising agency or a recruitment ad agency in our space, and you're doing any of the videos or creative design, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, I don't know why you wouldn't check these guys out.
Joel: Let's take a break and we'll come back to some Facebook and three-day work weeks.
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Chad: Well, I do have Amber Ferrari who said that she will be voicing that. So now all I have to do is push her into it to make sure it happens.
Joel: Yeah. Was it Adam Gordon that asked, "Why do all American ads have British accents in them?" Because they sound more trustworthy.
Chad: Probably. I'll go with that.
Chad: You shared an article, and again, this is going to be an interesting conversation. The article was entitled, Why You Should Follow Facebook and Pay Remote Workers Less. It was on Inc.com. So why should we pay remote workers less?
Joel: Well, in the article, the defense of this is that the standard of living in San Francisco is not the same that it takes to have that standard of living, pick a city, Boulder, Terre Haute, Detroit, wherever. So the basic premise is like, as we go more and more virtual, as we go more and more we can live anywhere and do our jobs, that pay will be responsive to where you live. So if I live in Indianapolis and I work for Facebook, I shouldn't expect the same salary as I would if I lived in Palo Alto. So fairly reasonable argument, I think, but I'm guessing you're going to disagree with it.
Chad: Yeah. It doesn't make any fucking sense.
Joel: It makes sense to me.
Chad: What about the building cost you're saving? You don't need to expand space, rather you can contract space and you can save money. This is just another way that Zuck wants to hoard his fucking money and screw his employees. Not to mention your cost of living drops when you move, that's a personal, not a corporate decision. Let's look at this from the lens of cohorts, which is your favorite. Let's take a look at maybe a younger millennial or a Z. Younger workers will want to work from a Metro, which is going to be higher cost, right? Because they want, and they need social interaction, bars, clubs, the Metro experience. Where an Xer with three kids, they don't want that, plus they have a fucking family, and they could get paid less for doing the same job just because they're not looking for the party lifestyle. This is one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard. Does it make sense because it costs less? You're doing the same fucking work. It doesn't matter. We talk about inequity, this is another form of driving inequity. So let's say for instance, you live in Detroit, do you believe because you are a programmer in Detroit, you should be paid the less because you chose to live in Detroit? Fuck no.
Joel: The answer is they already are.
Chad: And that's wrong. Again, we're talking about pay inequity.
Joel: Costs more to live in San Francisco than Detroit. 100 grand goes a lot further in Detroit
Chad: It doesn't fucking matter, dude. Pay inequity. It's something that we've talked about for a very long time and it still exists. All this does is widen the pay inequity gap, period.
Joel: No one in Cleveland is bitching about salaries because someone in Seattle's making more, they understand it costs more to live in Seattle than it does in Cleveland.
Chad: Okay. Doing the same work, you have three kids and a house that are in the suburbs, that might be less or maybe even beyond that, and you did that because you wanted to have a different lifestyle for your family. You're doing the same work, there's no reason you shouldn't get the same pay.
Joel: We'll just disagree on this.
Chad: Yeah. Because it's total bullshit. If somebody was making more money than I was, and I was doing the exact same work because of where I chose to live, that's total bullshit. That's socioeconomic fuck you, is what it is. It's pay inequity, pure and fucking simple.
Joel: It's geographical balance.
Chad: It's socioeconomic bullshit, is what it is.
Joel: Let's talk about something else though. Like Facebook and the whole like leave Trump's shares up, and when the looting starts, the shooting starts and all that shit. From a talent retention and recruitment standpoint, they are dancing on a fine line of getting into a place where no one wants to work at Facebook that gives a shit about morals and doing the right thing. Right? We agree on that at least?
Chad: Well, yeah. First you want to pay me less because I want to live outside the fucking city. Then you want to take a stand that leaves these stupid fucking posts up and you don't want to take responsibility for your own platform. You just want to back away and just let it happen. These companies, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, they're all media companies. They might not have started out that way, but they are media companies. Where do they drive all of their revenue from? Its media. Guess what? You're a media company. So now we should get the FCC and fuck involved and start making sure that they have to abide by the same types of rules that local radio stations do or Network TV. That's where we should be focusing.
Joel: To me, Twitter has a real opportunity to do a real business, like come to Jesus moment. And in my opinion should go to a subscription based service. They'll lose a lot of users, but the interaction that you'll get on it will be much better. They could charge a very minimal amount and really clean up the space, have no advertising, they've already said no to political ads and the like.
Joel: And the businesses that are tearing our world apart, are social media sites, right? Teen depression, suicide, political forces against each other. Like nobody wants to kill each other over at Netflix, a nice little subscription model. So to me, if Twitter really wanted to make a statement, and I'm going way off on a tangent, but Twitter should go to a subscription model and get just out of this cesspool of social media shit that's going on right now, and that Zuckerberg apparently doesn't give a shit about, because at 22 years old people told him he was Jesus and he still believes it.
Chad: Yeah. Netflix and Twitter, that's apples and oranges. But I do agree, you get what you pay for. And right now, we're paying for free and we're getting a lot of shit that's unregulated.
Joel: And speaking of free, how about, we had our buddy from the Yang Gang, talk about a three day workweek in a post this week. Right? Did you share that one?
Chad: Yup. Andrew Yang
Joel: And how did we go from four to three? We were just debating four like a month ago.
Chad: No, it was three day weekends. So Yang wants three day weekends, after this last three day weekends he's like, "Man, this is great. Let's do this." Some studies have shown four day workweeks increase worker satisfaction and productivity. And Microsoft, Japan subsidy, reported a 40% boost in productivity after trialing the chain.
Joel: I think the irony of all this discussion is, thanks to our phones, laptops, wearable shit, whatever, most people never really stop working. You and I have an unwritten agreement that we just don't necessarily talk to each other on Friday and Saturday and Sunday. But for most people, they work through the weekend.
Joel: So to talk about three day weekends, to me, it's just all conversation. We all work, most of us, seven days a week, whether it's on the weekend or the week day. So unless we have like a serious, okay, we're unplugging, we're going off the grid for three days, we're still going to be working.
Chad: Yes. I agree. Working from home, remote work, connectivity, you're still going to do the work when you do the work. And I think this is one of the easiest things to do, is to say that you have a four day work week, but you still have projects that need to get done. Right?
Chad: So that is what it is. And that's going to change, obviously, if you start talking about manufacturing. I mean some manufacturers already have four day workweeks, thing is they're 10 hour work days. Right? So you're still getting your 40 hours in. So this has happened in some form or fashion with companies and in some industries healthcare over the years. So is this a big change? To an extent. I think we just need to change our mindset around what those hours actually mean.
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. The real solution is we all just moved to France.
Chad: I'm down with that.
Joel: I'm down with that too. And I know you're down with universal basic income as well. There was a story on that this week.
Chad: Yeah. So the Corona virus has made things even more difficult for like a quarter of all Spanish people, which is about 12.3 million people who are at risk of poverty or social exclusion after the country was not fully recovered from the previous economic crisis. So Spain's government approved universal basic income to help 850,000 vulnerable families, counting for about 2.3 million people. This is something that we've talked about this for a while. What is a country supposed to do? It's supposed to support and protect. And in this case, you're supporting your people. You're driving equity to provide dollars to those individuals, and you're going to build the economy because when you provide that money, they're going to put it right back into the economy.