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Talent Acquisition Excellence



The future of recruiting is a popular topic these days. With AI and automation tools that are on a whole other level to tech of the past, many wonder how the future will play out for the profession that has for so long been a staple of corporate strategy. Fortunately, we have wise ol' veterans who know the past, but can also see around corners better than most. Age and vision are in short supply. That's why we had Kevin Wheeler, author, speaker and founder of Global Learning Resources, to the podcast. Kevin has a new book coming out in February entitled, “Talent Acquisition Excellence: Using Digital Capabilities and Analytics to Improve Recruitment,” that will prove helpful to those hoping the navigate the future like an ancient oracle. We're talkin' predictions for 2024, the pandemic impact, labor uprisings, how the kids are alright, and much more. Listen, subscribe, like and share.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:


Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, flash brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

[music]

Joel: Yeah, it's your AI copilot's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Terminator to my RoboCop, Chad Sowash is in the house.

Chad: Hello.

Joel: And we are super excited to welcome Kevin Wheeler, author, speaker, icon, founder of Global Learning Resources, and just all around nice guy to the show. Kevin, welcome.

Chad: How you doing, Kevin?

Kevin Wheeler: I'm good. A guy with no headphones.

Chad: You're good. You're good. You've got headphones on. You're fine. You're fine.

Joel: You sound great, Kevin. Sound great. And might I say, one of the best heads of hair for one of the veterans in the industry.

Chad: Yeah it's pretty sexy.

Joel: I've always been an admirer of your hair.

Kevin Wheeler: I still have hair.

Joel: That is good. That is good. That is good. So beyond hair, I mentioned you're an icon. I met you 15 years ago. I know that you were cracking before that. Give the listeners who don't know you a Twitter bio about Kevin.

Kevin Wheeler: See, I've been in the recruiting space since the '80s. Started out as a corporate recruiter and in corporate HR and spent 17 years in the corporate world and then went out on my own, started Global Learning Resources and the Future of Talent Institute. And I run both of those organizations right now. We really focus on future trends in the HR Space, but we really focus on recruitment and learning and development. Those are our two primary areas. And so we look at what are the trends, what's going to look like in a few more years. So we try to look out as far as we can. We don't have a crystal ball. We just kind of do a trend analysis. We did a lot of work with SRI, which was the old Stanford Research Institute, and we use techniques from them and the Institute for the Future, which is where I spent some time working there when I first started out on my own. And so we use a lot of techniques that they use to do future looking forecasting.

Joel: You're in Australia a lot, aren't you?

Kevin Wheeler: I am. I have a business in Australia as well.

Joel: Oh, have you been bitten by one of the many venomous animals in Australia?

Kevin Wheeler: No. You know, it's really overrated. Their venomous animals, they're there, but they don't like the cities. So as long as you're not out in the country.

Joel: Wise.

Kevin Wheeler: You're pretty safe. Yeah.

Joel: Wise.

Chad: Joel's afraid to go. He knows he's going to be eaten by something. Anyway, Kevin, tell the kids at home. I mean, you were a recruiter back in the column inches days, back in the days when resumes were actually on paper. So talk a little bit about, I mean, we're seeing huge advancements now, but talk about the difference between advancements back from column inches to online, from today online to AI.

Kevin Wheeler: Not a whole lot has changed, I mean, if I had...

Chad: Holy shit! Really?

Kevin Wheeler: If you were, if I had disappeared for the last 30 years and came back, it would probably take me 2 hours to get back into it again. That's how little has changed. The major change is the computer. Right. The Internet. That's really it. Instead of paper, we just, we look at paper online now. That's all. So we haven't really changed anything except we went from a physical piece of paper to a digital piece of paper. We still do everything the same way. We still interview, we still source we still, instead of cold calling, which we still do some, but now we search people on the Internet. So really other than the computer, it's been very little difference. Recruiter productivity hasn't improved. If you had a professional hires, you did 20 reqs, maybe 15-20 reqs today, same thing. Nothing's changed.

Chad: But scale has changed, though, right? I mean, you would get like three applications for a job. Today you get 300. So scale has changed dramatically. And that recruiter who actually owned that req back in the day when they had three resumes, today they have 300, the workload has changed dramatically. Right?

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. You'd certainly get more resumes today than you did back then. A lot more than used to get, but the difference is you can screen the ones today more quickly using the technology. If you use the technology, which most people do to some degree.

Chad: You should.

Kevin Wheeler: Back then, I had to read. I had to open envelopes and read every one of them. So, anyway, you had three, but it was sort of like 30 that are online.

Chad: What's an envelope? What's an envelope?

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, what's an envelope? Right. Yeah, right. Then you had to read the cover letter. That was usually a piece of crap and so...

Chad: Still is.

Kevin Wheeler: It still is.

Chad: Bard and Chat GPT, they do a hell of a cover letter today.

Kevin Wheeler: They do a really good job. They do, yeah. And they make up really good resumes too.

Joel: Am I hearing bullish or bearishness on the recruiting profession Kevin? As you talk, tell us about the past and the future.

Kevin Wheeler: Well, I just I don't, neither really. It's neutral. I think. It hasn't done anything. It's pretty much the same as it always was. The only thing that's really happened is that we now use to some degree, not all recruiters, but many do use computers and so forth. But this small company recruiters who don't do it any differently than I did 30 years ago, they still get paper resumes. They still, it's amazing. But when you look at all the professions out there, finance, anything, it's all changed dramatically. But HR and recruiting have not changed that much.

Chad: Why write a book if nothing has changed? You just wrote a book.

Joel: He wrote it in 1987 and just added the Internet to where it said newspapers, so it's the same book.

Kevin Wheeler: Because Chat GPT is a weapon of mass destruction. All right?

Joel: Oh, let's get to the title because it's a mouthful, Kevin. So it's coming out in February, late February. It's pre-sale at Amazon, Target, all your favorites It's called Talent Acquisition Excellence, using digital capabilities and analytics to improve recruitment. Now, you co-authored this with our friend Bas in the Netherlands.

Kevin Wheeler: Right.

Joel: So tell us about the origin, what message you're trying to give, what preparation for the future you're hoping to relay to the reader.

Kevin Wheeler: Sure. You know, Bas and I have known each other for a long time. I do a lot of work in the Netherlands with different organizations. And we were just talking about the impact that AI already has had and is going to have much more over the next few years. And we decided it was time to put down some of our thoughts on paper. So that's kind of what we did. We took, we've been working on this book for over a year, year and a half or so, and a lot changed in the time we were writing the book obviously, lots of things have changed. But Chat GPT is a game changer for many things. It's probably as powerful for recruiting, maybe more powerful than the Internet was in that it actually allows people to actually not do things that they used to have to do or think that they had to do, help find people, screen people, assess people, even engage them in conversation, things that recruiters historically believe they have to do or that nothing else can do it except them. And I think now we're finding that other things like AI can do a lot of what they do, and that's a game changer.

Chad: So what is the book about? Is it literally just talking about doomsday destruction, dystopian. Hey, look, the robots are taking our stuff?

Kevin Wheeler: No.

Chad: So talk about it. What's the book talking about?

Kevin Wheeler: All right, first of all, it talks about all the trends that are impacting talent in general. All right? Stuff like demographics, things like changing nature of work, what people are thinking about work. The pandemic was also a huge catalyst in this. All right? So there's several things that have sort of come together, the demographic, the declining populations all over the western world for sure, and in China and places like that. That's short, that's increasing the talent shortage and will exacerbate it big time over the next few years. You combine that with the impact of the pandemic, which really got people thinking differently about work. Maybe I can work from home now, maybe I don't have to do it the way I used to do it.

Kevin Wheeler: Everybody, corporations, CEOs, everybody's looking at work in a different way than they did before. And again, that's enabled to a large degree by the Internet, but it's also enabled by the generative AI, the tools that exist now, and much more capability with virtual reality and other things that are about to hit the marketplace and change a lot. I mean, I think in two or three years from now, we would feel like we're sitting in the same room together because we'll have the virtual capabilities to make that reality. So that's going to change a lot of things about work, about should we go back to the office? Well, the office may be brought to you via virtual tools. So these things are all changing everything about talent, about work. Companies, organizations, governments are all faced with new challenges, like the gig-workforce, which is huge now. It's probably 20% of the workforce or more.

Kevin Wheeler: And growing is people that are independent and want to stay independent. And governments are doing their best to coerce people back to full-time work. And the reason for that partly is taxes. Freelancers only pay taxes occasionally, where when you work for the man, you pay them every week. So the government has a predictable source of income coming from payroll deduction taxes. Freelancers, they don't have that. They can't predict how much they're going to get and when they're going to get it. So there's a lot of subtle things nobody talks about, nobody thinks about that have an impact on why people are pushing people back to work, why we want full-time workers and not gig-workers, because cities are suffering tax wise by not having full buildings. Professor Berkeley says for every job that we create in a company, you create five ancillary jobs. People like the restaurant owner, the waitress, the dry cleaner. So every time you lay somebody off, you've in fact laid off five people. So these are huge impacts on employment and on the tax-base in cities. So there's all kinds of things that are in-flux right now that are changing.

Joel: Kevin, we hear like, this will be a net loss of jobs, but we're going to gain more jobs because of AI. Like, where are you on? Will we gain more jobs because of this technology like we have in the past, or is this time different?

Kevin Wheeler: Well, I guess it depends on how you define a job. And if you define a job as working for a corporation from eight to five, we're going to lose those jobs, but we're going to gain a lot more jobs independent, working independently, working on their own schedules and using their own skill-sets the way they want to. So it's going to be really hard to say, are we going to gain or lose jobs or employment? I think in the end, most people will still find something to do to earn money. It's just going to be different than the way we used to doing it in the past. And it's not going to be a revolution. It's going to be an evolution, that's already happened. It's big time. When you've got 20% of the workforce already as a gig-worker and you look at Gen Z and Gen Alpha, which is the generation after Gen Z, they're already copping out. They're saying, I don't want to do this. I don't want to work for companies. I'm going to figure out ways to be entrepreneurial.

Chad: Which is evolution, like you're talking about. I mean, the movement to remote work instead of Henry Ford nine to five, 40 hours a week, it's all about productivity and being able to hit those sales goals, those product goals, whatever they are, right? It could take somebody 20 hours a week to do what somebody else does in 40, it almost feels like CEOs are trying to stop this evolution. Can it be stopped, number one? And number two, I mean, if you are getting paid gig-wise, as long as it's not under the table, you're still going to pay those taxes. It's just going to be at the back-end and they're going to be a big ass chunk. Right? So what's bad about the evolution? And can CEOs and government stop this evolution?

Kevin Wheeler: Can you stop it? No, there's no way, you can't stop revolutions. They don't get stopped. You can slow them down, you can get in the way of them, but you can't stop them. So I think it's really a matter of the, CEOs are pushing people to come back for a couple of reasons. One is political pressure that may be subtly applied through city governments and state governments to them calling them up and saying, look, guys, this is impacting our revenues, our taxes, and so forth and so on. But it's also that they're my age, they grew up in the time when everybody worked eight to five, and that's all they know. That's what they're used to.

Chad: They punch the clock, they punch the clock. Right?

Kevin Wheeler: They punch the clock. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, for them, that's work. That's how you define work. Right. And they can't even imagine how you can sit at home and do what you guys are doing and make money. They can't understand that. All right.

Joel: We still can't understand that Kevin. Who do you hope reads the book? Is it executives? Is it recruiters? Is it the kids out there looking for career options?

Kevin Wheeler: It's not going to...

Joel: Who do you hope reads this?

Kevin Wheeler: I don't think it's going to be the kids out there. I think hopefully it'll be recruiters. Hopefully it will be HR people, and hopefully we'll get a few CEOs to read the book. That would be great.

Joel: Yeah, you better get on TikTok, Kevin, if you want the kids to notice.

Kevin Wheeler: I know. I know.

Joel: @Kevinwheeler, TikTok channel coming soon.

Kevin Wheeler: TikTok. Yeah. I'm on TikTok, but I still can't figure out how to use it. So it's...

Joel: Yeah. You wrote a post recently kind of pivoting away from the book about predictions for 2024. Any of your lists that you want to highlight that you're really, really positive or optimistic about?

Kevin Wheeler: Well, I mean, obviously the first prediction was that generative AI would become a dominant player in recruitment, and it definitely will. I mean, I think you're going to find that recruiters are going to have to, there're going to be a lot fewer recruiters. We've seen massive layoffs of recruiters in the last year. That's not going to change. They're not going to get hired back. There's no reason to hire them back.

Joel: So, I want to dig into that real quick. So a lot of recruiters listening to this are going, holy shit, my job is gone or I'm at risk of losing my job and I'm not coming back. That tells me that, that just really concerns me, what do you tell them in terms of what they should do? Get a new line of work, learn new skills?

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah.

Joel: What advice would you give them after saying the jobs aren't coming back for recruiters?

Kevin Wheeler: All the above. I'll put it this way. If you're a seasoned recruiter who's been doing this for a few years, you're probably going to have, you're going to be able to get a job and keep a job for a while, but you're going to need new skills to do that. You're going to need to get in-touch with, in-tune with AI and with the technology that's out there and you're going to have to let go of some of those things that you have cherished, such as only I can screen people and only I can interview people and so forth.

Chad: Yes.

Kevin Wheeler: We're going to have to let those things go away. If you're a new, if you've just been in recruiting for a year or two and got laid-off, go find a new job because I don't think you're going to find a long-term future in recruiting. Okay? The thing is, recruiters are going to have to reinvent their profession and that's really what it's all about. And by reinventing it, let Chat GPT and generative AI do what it can do best and then figure out what it can't do and do that. And that's really going to be the more judgment stuff, the marketing stuff, the relationship building, the influencing kind of things. All right, so if I can find for most jobs, Chat GPT or the generative AI tools will be able to find the people you're looking for, for the routine jobs, for sure. They're out there.

Kevin Wheeler: So it can find them. It can assess their skills in a very objective way. If you're a coder, if you're a writer, it can look at writing samples or code samples and assess them against the job reqs and job requirements and it can present that candidate to a hiring manager. I envision the day when a hiring manager can go to their terminal and type-in that I'm looking for X and a few minutes later it appears in their screen, all pre-screened and sorted by generative AI. I think that's reality that's going to happen. Now, it may not happen for every job. It's not going to happen for maybe the senior level executive kind of jobs and so forth. But for most jobs, it's going to be a routine kind of thing. Okay? So you don't even need a recruiter at all in that.

Chad: So, Kevin, the interesting thing is that, let's say for these large language models and some of these algorithms, they've been around forever. And to be able to do what you just said, go into my database and match it up against a requisition, we've been able to do that for 10 years.

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah.

Chad: What has been the moment that actually made everybody to say, oh, shit, we need to start adopting this because now everybody's talking about large language models. Well, we had them before, we had the data before and some of these companies have been around for years, so why now?

Kevin Wheeler: Well, I'll just push back a little bit. I'll say we didn't have large language models. We had algorithms, all right? And they're different. And we had algorithms that were recipes, basically. If you see this, do this. We could look at a req, match it up against a candidate's specifically listed skill-set. But we couldn't intuit. We couldn't intuit skills. We couldn't use the capabilities that now exist in large language models to look at those skills and say, well, if this person can do this, then probably they can do this.

Kevin Wheeler: All right? We couldn't do that before. It was just a one-for-one matching process and algorithms, all right? So, now we've got the ability to use more, I guess you'd call fuzzy matching tools or ability. So, I can look at you guys and say, oh, you guys do podcasts. Well, you're probably pretty good speakers. You're probably good doing a whole bunch of other things, okay? So, I could intuit that because I'm a human being and I can figure out, probably you guys have other things you could do and you're probably be pretty good at it because of what you do now. An algorithm can't do that. The large language models can do that and that's what's so powerful. And after a company has used these models for a while and they've gotten and they've learned, which is another capability that algorithms don't generally have, these are capable of learning, they can actually get and continuously improve as they get feedback and see the results of their recommendations.

Kevin Wheeler: So, if they recommend three people to you with certain qualifications and none of them ever get hired, they're going to change their process. They're going to change their algorithms to become more attuned to what you're actually looking for. So, there's a lot of subtle differences in the large language models and the power that we now have in computing. Again, up until a few years ago, computing was very constricted by the amount of computing power you had.

Chad: CPUs versus GPUs. GPUs and NVIDIA have kicked ass.

Kevin Wheeler: Oh, kicked ass. Totally, totally changed the game, okay? So, I mean, NVIDIA's hardware has been the winner for the last few years. I think over the next few, you're going to see software gaining more and more capabilities. So, there's been real fundamental changes in what's going on. I have to talk to Alexa. Alexa, turn on the office.

[laughter]

Joel: I'm so happy we got Kevin Wheeler to say kick ass on a podcast. If nothing else comes of this podcast, that was great.

Kevin Wheeler: Listener, you're welcome.

Joel: Yeah, you're welcome, internet. You're welcome, industry. So, Kevin, Chad and I advise quite a few startups that sell this stuff, develop it. And one of the things that I hear, I'm sure Chad does as well, is that there tends to be a natural pushback on this technology because you're potentially taking my job if we buy your service. So, you have all these sort of forces working against and for. The other part of that, in light of forces of change, you in California with minimum wage laws, which I have to think are pushing more and more companies to automate and use AI because I don't have to hire anybody or pay them anything because I can get the robots to do that. Curious about your opinion of the push and pull of technology. I assume it's just going to happen, but you have government involved. You have the industry involved. These companies want to go to the CEO. They don't want to talk to HR anymore because HR isn't going to buy this thing because it might mean their job. Talk about that.

Kevin Wheeler: I mean, clearly, this pushback. Obviously, nobody, very few people welcome a tool that's going to take away their job. The guys that used to dig ditches before the bulldozer didn't want the bulldozer to come. You've got the old story of John Henry, the pile driving guy who didn't want automated railroad development. These histories are not new. These have been going on. But the bottom line is stopping. Technology is not possible. It's not possible to stop it. So, inevitably, it's going to take over more and more of these roles. And a smart person looks at ways to get better than the technology or develop skills the technology doesn't have. So, I mean, I think that clearly there's going to be a huge push toward automation, partly because of costs and partly because of productivity.

Kevin Wheeler: I look at the UAW agreement recently, which is a five years on parole before they're all gone. Okay, so we're going to give you we're going to give you a lot of money for five years, way more than we've ever given any union contract before, because we're going to use that five years to automate everything in the plant. And in five years, we're not going to need you guys. This is what's happening. I mean, this is the reality. They know that when they look at Japan, which is, the car manufacturing there is like 80% automated and it's going to go even more that we're going to... And General Motors is way behind. So you're going to see this acceleration and the use of automation for everything.

Joel: And that's the same for the in and out worker. Like enjoy the next five years of $20 per hour, because after that, the clock strikes twelve.

Kevin Wheeler: That's exactly right. So, if you're smart and you kind of look ahead and see that and what are the occupations that are coming? Well, we don't know yet. There'll be new ones. There'll be a lot of things that people do. I mean, thirty, hundred years ago, people were telephone operators and elevator operators and everything else that are long gone in history. But those people all found other things to do. So I'm pretty sure that we will continue to generate work for people. But it may be work that's done part time. It may be done freelance. It's not maybe going to be going to a factory or to an office building. So we're completely changing work.

Joel: Where are you on UBI in favor? Not so much? Universal basic income, particularly in California.

Kevin Wheeler: I mean, I think, again, that's some sort of that is inevitable. Just to look at if you're General Motors and I can now automate car manufacturing so I can lower my costs tremendously, which increases my profits tremendously because I'm not paying people to work. I'm not trying to pay these robots. So I'm going to generate excessive profits, which we have to. It's all about redistributing income, right? So what do we do? How do we redistribute?

Chad: Always has been.

Kevin Wheeler: Always has been. So if we if we can tax those organizations at the same rate or roughly the same rate they would have paid wages, then we can redistribute that to people as universal basic income. All right. Now, the experiments that have been done with UBI are very positive. It's about people don't just sit back and watch TV all day. They actually find other things to do, but they don't have to worry about, paying for their lodging and their food. So I'm not saying we give people a 100 grand a year, but you give people enough money that they don't worry about the basics in life. And then they can go and do things that they're passionate about or they love or they like to do. So I think UBI and the history of where it's worked well in many places it has is pretty positive. And Europe has a sort of UBI. I mean, they don't really call it that, but they have a pretty heavily subsidized safety net, they call it. So nobody nobody goes without housing or without medical care because the government covers that. And those countries aren't dying. They're doing okay. And I think, most other countries will follow that, will have to follow that because the automation wave is going to force that to happen.

Chad: The actual taxing, I think, is going to be the the key when we start taking a look at these jobs and obviously profitability. Well, what we've seen and we don't have any guardrails on this unfortunately, is during the pandemic, profit margins just exploded. Profit margin exploded, then we want to blame inflation on people buying stuff when it's expanded profit margins. And then what happens? Then we have to play the whole economic game of now. We have to raise interest rates to hit the low wage earners and the middle wage earners. I mean, there's got to be new mechanisms to be able to help everybody in the stack, not just the top, which unfortunately we've seen. It's been fed by trickle, not non-trickle down economics for over 40 years.

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely.

Chad: You think this is going to do it, though? Is this really going to push all of that out the window?

Kevin Wheeler: It's definitely going to help. It may not be. I think more quite a few progressive economists and others are thinking about we have to overhaul the whole tax system, our whole way of generating government revenues. Everything is based on the 20th century eight to five workday model. That's that's what we built it on. In the golden age, back when the Rockefellers and the Carnegie Mellons and all built, 500 room mansions that they used for one month a year was because we didn't have an income tax and we didn't redistribute income. So the income tax that came in in the early 1900s was a huge, huge shift. A massive shift in how we redistribute income. And that created the 20th century world that we're used to. So we're in another massive change of how do we redistribute income again? What's the mechanism for doing that? And we have... It's probably not going to be the traditional income tax that we're used to. It's probably going to be a very different set of tools. I don't know what they are yet. I'm not an economist, but clearly we need to rethink the whole system of how we distribute income. And technology is clearly going to play a major role in that.

Joel: And the US isn't in a bubble anymore. It's a global economy working remotely. Any thoughts on how that shakes out, particularly with geopolitical risks that we're coming to a head with China?

Kevin Wheeler: We've got so many facing us right this moment. And who knows, we may be in a war in the Middle East and Europe before this year's out. Looking not so good every day. We've got all kinds of issues there. China has serious economic problems right now. The only place that the World Economic Forum right now is predicting GDP growth is Asia. And Asia looks pretty solid right now, especially Southeast Asia, Singapore, Indonesia, those countries, they look pretty robust. GDP, maybe 4 or 5% growth this year, where the US is predicted to be 1.2 maybe, maybe less. We've got real shifts and where the money is and where the power is.

Joel: I don't want to end this on a bummer of like World War 3. I'm going to ask about a post that you wrote or at least shared. It was entitled The Future Workplace is on Campus. I found that interesting. Did you write that? And if so, what do you mean?

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, I think the younger people, college grads, maybe not just college grads, are the ones that are changing the world. They always have been and they always will be. The change is coming from them when you look at how they're reacting to work, how they're facing employment decisions. It's completely different than the way you and I thought about things when we were their age. So they're not all... Some of them are definitely applying at General Electric and Amazon for jobs. But a lot of them aren't, a whole bunch aren't? A lot of them aren't even finishing uni. They're dropping out. 60% of guys who start university don't finish within a five to six year period. Huge statistic. So we've got a lot of people just opting to do things in a very different way and go out on their own, explore their own world and develop their own careers and their own jobs. And they're going to invent a lot of new things.

Joel: Thank God the millennials are making the young choices anymore. They're the old people like us. That is Kevin Wheeler, everybody. Kevin, for those who want to connect with you or you want to piss that book, where would they go to get that thing?

Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Go on Amazon. Look for Talent Acquisition Excellence. You'll find it there. You can look at look me up at the futureoftalent.org website or globallearningresources.com. Happy to chat.

Chad: Excellent.

Joel: That's Kevin Wheeler, Chad. Another one is in the can. Let's not wait another six years before we bring Kevin onto the show again.

Chad: We out.

Joel: We out.

Kevin Wheeler: See ya.

Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who? Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. This is so weird. We out.

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