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Tech Talks: Wins & Fails

What three tech trends do you see holding the limelight this decade? Chad & Cheese recently joined the podcast Tech Talks to discuss the hottest topics in recruitment. Time to get enlightened on what is set to trail (and fail) in tech today! Spoiler alert: Automation is here to stay, and more than that, more than 50% of jobs could be replaced by automation by 2030! Check out the hot takes on what the boys think employers need to keep an eye on, AND what you may need to drop!


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (29s):

Welcome to another episode of the Chad and Cheese HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Chad basking in the Algarve" Sowash and on this week's podcast, Joel and I are taking time away and enjoying Europe. No, we're not together. Why does everybody always think we're together? Anyways? We'll talk about that next week. In the meantime, we did record an episode on the Tech Talks podcast led by Nash Squared's David Savage and Melanie Hayes. You'll love it. It's a predictions podcast on HR tech Wins & Fails. Enjoy.

David (1m 2s):

So joining us today, we've got the host of the Chad and Cheese podcast for any of our listeners who don't know who Chad and Cheese are before I go on to introduce Matt as well. Cause I don't want to leave you out, but Joel, what is Chad and Cheese?

Joel (1m 17s):

Chad and Cheese is a regularly published a podcast covering news in recruitment, startups, thought leader interviews, et cetera. We publish roughly three shows per week. So we, you know, we're pretty regular.

David (1m 35s):

That's busy.

Joel (1m 36s):

And we've been doing this for five years. That's the Chad and Cheese show. To learn more, go to

David (1m 41s):

How did you guys get started? Cause three shows a week is, that's a hell of a commitment. Yeah,

Chad (1m 46s):

It is a hell of a commitment. We started off with a commitment of one show a week for a year, and that was Joel's commitment. We want to make sure that we actually had good cadence, right? You have to have a routine, especially if you have a podcast. So that's where we started. I think we had like two sponsorships slots. Those filled up in no time. We created a third one. You can only put so many ads in a podcast. So we started to branch out and companies and brands started coming to us and saying, Hey, look, here's some of our ideas on content that we're not hearing in the HR, TA and, and tech space. Would you guys be interested? And some we said, yeah, we'd definitely be interested in some, we pushed away because it was boring.

Chad (2m 29s):

So, I mean, that's really the story. It was, we started to be able to, I was at Randstad for a few years building systems and talent pipelines for the veteran community. Joel was a heads down as an entrepreneur and building a startup and we needed to get our voices back out there into the space. And this for me was, it was one of the better ways to do it other than just being on stage. Being on stage is great too. Yeah.

Joel (2m 59s):

It's mostly also excuse to drink.

sfx (3m 1s):

Hell Yeah!

David (3m 2s):

Whilst recording?

Joel (3m 3s):

Sometimes. Yeah, for sure. We have whiskey giveaways. We have beer giveaways. Like yeah. Well it's five o'clock somewhere. Right?

Chad (3m 11s):

That's what Bloody Marys and mimosas are for. Are you kidding me?

Melanie (3m 15s):

Ah, yeah, the drink of a Sunday morning.

David (3m 19s):

It's not alcoholic. I'm afraid. So it's all for show. And also joining us also joining us is

Joel (3m 26s):

What's the point?

Chad (3m 27s):

Just drink water.

Joel (3m 28s):

No, I know it's your show and you, I know you asked the questions, but explain to me non-alcoholic alcohol and the appeal of it.

David (3m 35s):

I can't drink alcohol for various boring medical reasons. And I really like,

Joel (3m 39s):

Okay. Enough said, all right.

David (3m 40s):

There you go.

Chad (3m 40s):

There you go.

Joel (3m 41s):

Got it.

David (3m 42s):

But also, it's nice. It's nice. Like you get to a point in the day where you've had so much coffee and it's a meeting and quite frankly, the alternative is lemonade and or Coca-Cola. And that's just not fun at all. Bloating and gassy and beer, much better.

Chad (3m 56s):

That's Joe's world right there. Bloating and gas.

Joel (4m 1s):

And not just because of alcohol, by the way. Taco Bell.

David (4m 4s):

I should also say if I was drinking alcohol right now at four o'clock in the afternoon while I was working with my Chief People Officer also on the interview, I don't think that would go down well.

Joel (4m 13s):

That's why you work for yourself, Dave. That's why you work for yourself.

David (4m 17s):

Wow. You're there. Right? I was at two shows a week. I'm not one show a week because two is a commitment that was beginning to be a bit of

Joel (4m 24s):

We're off track. It's your show. Go for go.

David (4m 27s):

This is fine. This is fine. The audience is used to it being a little bit random. Mel Chief People Officer, a lot of experience in HR. You're you're on the Nash Squared side to provide some credibility because I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Melanie (4m 40s):

Well, I'm hoping I can have some value then day.

David (4m 44s):

I think so.

Joel (4m 45s):

Do your listeners know Melanie?

David (4m 46s):

So no, my listeners don't know Mel.

Joel (4m 48s):

So she is going to do an intro to now. Right?

David (4m 50s):

Well, I think to say that she's our Chief People Officer, they are familiar with our company and our brand.

Joel (4m 56s):

Ok, alright.

Chad (4m 56s):

So welcome to the podcast Mel.

Melanie (4m 58s):

Thank you. First time on actually. I've been asking to come on this for two years. They just ignored me. Finally got my slot.

Chad (5m 6s):

No, you have to deal with us two idiots. I'm sorry. I apologize.

David (5m 10s):

I think, I think that's entirely fictitious. We met briefly at Unleash America and I kind of want to return to that a little bit. You guys, I had the pleasure of closing the stage on the first day of the conference and I'm stealing one of the questions that Unleash me because Unleash grabbed me at the end of the conference and they said, look, we want to know about three technologies that you think will fail. And three technologies that you think will all flourish. So I wanted to ask you the same thing, because it'd be interesting, not just based on the conference, obviously, but from some of the stuff that you heard at Vegas.

Chad (5m 41s):


David (5m 41s):

About kind of three trends that you do think are going to kind of catch on and see three that you think are hot air.

Joel (5m 47s):

Do we have to stay in the recruiting lane?

David (5m 50s):

HR tech, HR tech, recruitment, people culture.

Joel (5m 54s):

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fail or succeed first?

David (5m 57s):

You take a, which, whichever one you feel most, most strongly about first.

Joel (6m 0s):

All right. Success. I would say the trend that is for sure. Can't miss is automation.

sfx (6m 9s):

Shall we play a game?

Joel (6m 10s):

The solution of we're going to replace people with the mundane tasks like scheduling interviews are going to be automated will be plus 50% by the end of the decade that people will embrace automation for mundane tasks and recruiting, which by the way, will cost a lot of recruiters, their job. That's my number one automation.

David (6m 28s):

Mel, I imagine you have an opinion on that.

Melanie (6m 31s):

No, I think automate, automate, right? But at the moment, the number of companies that hiring recruiting roles is immense. I don't think I've ever seen it. I mean, I started in TA probably about 15 years ago, maybe longer actually probably longer. And there weren't many in house recruiters and now that's the job that you're seeing everywhere. So there's bound to be an impact, especially with the, if you look at the economic landscape and the potential of a recession in many countries, why wouldn't you automate? Which is definitely going to affect recruiting roles and actually recruiters are not always great admin. So let's remove that. I can say that because I've done the job.

Chad (7m 8s):

Well and they don't want to do it because it sucks. I mean, let's just be boldly honest here. I think Joel is right with regard to automation. I think he's incredibly wrong with regard to costing recruiters, their jobs, maybe sourcers, but we're talking about automation, taking tasks, not jobs for the most part. So you know anything that is easy. It's just, administrivia, it's routine. We've seen automation take those positions in every other industry in the world and we just haven't been able to automate them. Because again, HR slow, TA slow to adopt. I do see automation making a recruiter's life much easier again, from a sourcer standpoint, if you're just a pure play sourcer, you're probably in trouble.

Chad (7m 49s):

But from a recruiter standpoint, if you're halfway decent, I don't think you're going to have a problem.

David (7m 54s):

I' swear we've been having this conversation for like six years. What kind of time scale are we talking about? Yeah, for Joel's prediction. Because when I started this podcast, I think we were saying things like automation are going to come and take recruiters jobs away.

Chad (8m 5s):

That's Joel's I don't think it's going to happen.

Joel (8m 7s):

There are no wrong predictions. They just haven't come through yet.

Chad (8m 12s):

Yeah. Which means he doesn't want to answer your question. Okay.

Joel (8m 14s):

All right. Smarty pants. You give us one. It's easy to be the critic you give us one.

Chad (8m 18s):

If you would shut the hell up and let me actually talk. Okay. So first and foremost, I think one of the things that's going to fail dramatically is DEI tech. Anything that is diversity, equity, inclusion tech, and it's going to be challenged by new regulations and also outcomes. And when the first company gets knicked for anything, quote unquote diversity, you're going to see vendors change their tune. Especially if the regulations in California drop, which could hold vendors responsible right now there's not responsible, right? The employer is responsible. The vendors can say whatever the hell they want, they can smoke and mirrors left and right.

Chad (9m 0s):

DEI, if they're going to actually promote it and market it and say, they're the easy button. As soon as they're held responsible to it, they're going to run from.

Melanie (9m 8s):

I've always found the whole kind of automation and talking about inclusion to be an interesting topic, right? Because there are a number of organizations that haven't at a no human touch point. They've done that tech stack. So it's all kind of online, no human interaction. It doesn't that actually hinder people who might have disabilities. How do they get past that?

Chad (9m 29s):

Yeah. I mean, we actually had a discussion with Matt Stubbs who is blind and he can't actually apply for like 30% of the roles that he finds because they aren't compliant with his screen reader. So yeah, I mean, there are issues, even with many of these organizations who say that they quote unquote "embrace DEI, disability, veterans". So yeah, this is still a problem. And again, as companies say that they are quote unquote "DEI tech" and they're proven not to be it's going to be a huge, huge issue, especially if some of these regulations start popping.

David (10m 10s):

It's interesting. Right? So we've got success, automation failure, DE&I tech. Joel, give us another failure then.

Joel (10m 22s):

Failure? Virtual reality.

Chad (10m 24s):

That's your favorite.

Joel (10m 25s):

Lotta of hype. Yeah. I sarcastically love it. Look, there's been talk about, you know, put on this headset, walk through the office, see where, your cubicle is, have a chat with your boss through VR. On job training, put on this headset and you can like learn the job. There was talk about zoom will be replaced with the metaverse, which is another fail, probably, but less so than VR. No, like there's no, there's going to be no boardroom meeting where everyone's wearing an Oculus and like talking to each other. This is way more normal for most people. I don't see the headsets taking over corporate America or the business world.

Joel (11m 7s):

So VR is going to be a big fail in terms of the workforce workplace.

David (11m 12s):

I think Metaverse with a capital M will fail. I think metaverse with a small m will ultimately succeed.

Joel (11m 17s):

I'm too old. Metaverse might take off, man. I don't know kids, kids are crazy, but I don't think metaverse in the workforce or I mean, VR in the workforce is going to is going to happen.

David (11m 28s):

We've had some, we've had some pretty successful early stage admittedly, but promising successful kind of companies. Verti on the podcast, who kind of, you know, the brain of surgeons who want to try and recreate highly pressurized circumstances for training of medics and so on or paramedics at the side of the road, you know, those style immersive environments, true. Maybe sitting around a boardroom, maybe not, but those style training environments, that seems to be some legs there.

Joel (11m 56s):

And people still read newspapers. Yes. Like it's okay. It'll catch on with some small group that has money and wants to be cool and whatever, like, okay. Doctors and people who love porn will embrace Oculus.

David (12m 9s):

You said, you know, we still feel that this is more natural, but this is the first iteration of this, you know,

Joel (12m 17s):

We've been doing this shit for.

David (12m 18s):

You're in Indiana and Mel's in Tennessee and it's great, but it's, you know, we're only a couple of years out of the pandemic of trying to get used to this. Surely the technology is gonna work.

Joel (12m 24s):

Would you rather have this talk at a virtual table where we all have like headsets and I'm a robot and Chad is a squirrel. And like, would you really rather have that?

David (12m 39s):

Minus the robots and squirrel? Yes.

Joel (12m 42s):

All right. All right. Dave's bullish on VR. I want to hear what Melanie and Chad think about VR in the workplace. It's commercial time.

Chad (12m 51s):

It's Showtime. Yeah, I think you're right. I think VR in the workplace, again, you've got to remember HR and talent acquisition they are slow to adopt. For VR to be adopted in other areas, I agree Dave, with regard to training scenarios, medical, being able to actually use AR for schematics for mechanics and those types of things. I think all of those are great applications. I just think it's going to take maybe a handful of big organizations to implement and take the risk for this to happen in HR and TA. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Melanie (13m 29s):

I agree. I mean, I have an Oculus, I use it to play golf and tennis and Beat Saber.

David (13m 36s):

Beat Saber is an excellent game.

Melanie (13m 37s):

Yeah. I've tried to zombie game. Didn't like it.

David (13m 40s):

Let's get a positive from Chad. I'll leave that.

Chad (13m 43s):

Yes. I would just leave that right there. So education platforms, you take a look at companies like Guild and Metaverse (Multiverse) who are, you know, quad unicorns, you know, double quad unicorns. One of the things that at least here in the United States, and I think we can see this all over the world is that we have this quote unquote "skills gap" problem, and companies aren't they're not bridging the gap themselves. They're sitting around and they're whining because they don't have the talent that is perfectly tuned, attuned to the roles and positions that they have available. So instead of creating their own platforms, go figure companies like Guild, Multiverse, and there are some others that are out there are creating these platforms to help bridge that gap for organizations.

Chad (14m 30s):

So it's more of a quote, unquote "educational easy button" to get workers from entry-level to maybe mid-level versus just sitting around and hoping that it happens. So I think educational platforms, and also from an internal mobility standpoint, where you're trying to skill up individuals currently in your organization, that's huge for retention, which we really suck at to be quite Frank in HR and TA.

David (14m 53s):

I think I can get on board with that. So that leaves us with one left in each category on this little section, Joel, back to you. So you can choose if you want to go positive or negative here,

Joel (15m 3s):

I went negative. So I'm going to go positive this time.

Chad (15m 7s):


Joel (15m 7s):

Well maybe it's a little bit of both. Okay. The robots are coming. People, the robots are coming. In 10 years getting your food from robot, getting your food cooked by a robot, getting a basic sort of healthcare check by a robot is going to seem normal.

sfx (15m 23s):

Shall we play a game?

Joel (15m 24s):

They've been testing it for years. They're starting to ramp this shit up now. Hiring cooks is a bitch. Keeping these people service industry folks is a bitch. Warehouse workers, recruiting retention. We gotta pay them more than we ever have. We have to deal with unions now with certain companies like employers are just going to say, fuck people as much as we can. Let's bring in the robots. You will see more and more robots. So I guess that's a pro for the robot and on a bearish on like just people doing these jobs are going to have to figure something else out. So,

Chad (15m 59s):

So Joel is beating that automation drum heavy. And I don't disagree, especially for all these positions that just suck. Whether they're, as we talked about earlier, with regard to automation, taking away the routine, the administrative types of tasks out of the job, same thing for somebody working at like a Burger King or something like that, where they're not going to have to flip burgers anymore because now we have Misos Flippy and they can do, they can do more of the customer service and those types of positions. So I can't disagree at all with that one.

David (16m 30s):

Well, I'd be interested. You think this, I dunno, know whether I'm terribly British. I kind of feel like this might be a divide across the pond in attitudes towards this, or have I just don't see it happening here.

Melanie (16m 43s):


Joel (16m 44s):


David (16m 44s):

Wow. Well, when, when we talk about robots in restaurants, I just don't see. I don't see it as it doesn't seem, I don't know. I dont.

Melanie (16m 55s):

We're not Europeans anymore.

David (16m 55s):

I don't know. That's different debate. I dunno. I feel like, there seems to be a bit more of a groundswell for this kind of stuff in the states around restaurants and service industry and whatever else, or maybe even the Far East and maybe in Europe.

Joel (17m 7s):

I mean, it's going to be a lot easier based on like Americans, if we're good at anything, it's firing people. European countries, it's a lot harder to fire people. People are paid better. So maybe the retention is better. Maybe there's a cultural that plays into replacing people with robots.

Chad (17m 23s):

They can't even hire people right now. So I think from a turnover standpoint, yeah.

Joel (17m 28s):

I mean, they can't keep people, they can't hire people like bring in the bots baby.

Melanie (17m 33s):

We've got, so David was thinking about this, right? So where we've got global leaders meeting in Nashville this week, and one of our leaders from the UK came and his suitcase hasn't arrived and somebody sent him a photograph. Nope. They can't hire people in the airports. I think 25% of the flights in the US have been canceled because of the same problem. And there's just a whole load of suitcases. There was a picture with a whole load of suitcases. Just if you can automate it, if you can build robots, that's what's going to happen. Right. There's a problem. The pandemic has driven it. That is sped it up, right?

Chad (18m 5s):

Yes. Yeah. Agreed, agreed. A hundred percent, especially with regard to all of these positions that have been labeled essential because they really are cause they're a part of the, the supply chain and these individuals haven't been treated essential. Right? They haven't been paid for shit. They've got shitty jobs. And yet now they're being seen now they see that they are essential to really the supply chain, just America or the globe working. And they're like, okay. So if I'm essential, I need paid more or I'm out. And there's going to be a way. And Joel and I talked about this on the show all the time, Jeff Bezos cannot wait. He cannot wait until he can fully automate every single warehouse and he doesn't have to put up with another human.

Joel (18m 50s):

And deliveries. He would love to have people out of the equation of Amazon.

Chad (18m 54s):


David (18m 55s):

That's have a great, great gap. Then we've got automation, education robots on the plus point we've got D and I, tech will fail. VR is not in the favorable column either. Chad it leaves you with one more technical fail.

Chad (19m 11s):

Yep. I think a pure play chatbots are done.

sfx (19m 14s):

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!

Chad (19m 15s):

You know, we see the AllyOs, Mayas, Azores. I mean, anybody who hasn't actually started to move toward a bigger type of a system, right? A recording, a system of record type of system. Like we know Talkpush on the APAC and European side and then obviously Paradox, they have taken that chat bot to conversational AI then to much larger platforms, high volume and they're not just quote unquote "chatbots" anymore. So I see the pure play chatbots either within the next 18 months, getting acquired on the clearance sale shelf or dying.

David (19m 56s):

So interesting. Cause I loath them and yet it's impossible to get through to anyone real on the phone. And there would be somewhere where properly good automation could make a big difference.

Chad (20m 6s):


David (20m 7s):

But they're useless. The ones that you actually find you're talking to don't seem to have any intelligence behind them whatsoever.

Joel (20m 13s):

Those are decision trees is what he's talking about basically.

David (20m 20s):


Joel (20m 22s):

It's commercial time.

Chad (20m 23s):

It's Show time.

David (20m 24s):

So look fine. We've gone through those three. Three that will succeed and three that will fail. I've got one more question. And I'd love to know what Mel will say about this as well being a Chief People Officer. But one of my favorite things that came out of Unleash in Vegas was a chat. It was a talk, sorry, that was given by PayPal. And they used the Spiderman quote "with great power comes great responsibility". And they talked about the fact that data could be a blessing or a curse for employees, and it was very much earring on the idea that data could really be a bit of a curse for employees. And that just because he can do something doesn't mean that you should do something. How do you guys all feel about that? Cause cause data is obviously something that we all Lord and employee experience is something that we are all trying to improve.

David (21m 7s):

Data would seem to be at the heart of that, but it can't go too far. Right. I mean, it, it could begin to creep into all sorts of infringements of employee rights.

Joel (21m 16s):

You know, I'm old enough to remember a day when people thought emails were private, right. A company email address was private, which some people still do and people are still getting in trouble for like, you know, CEO's sending emails to interns about whatever. So, you know, and now there are programs that will track slack conversations and try to indicate whether you're, someone's going to quit their job, whether you're depressed or happy in your work. I think that people have unfortunately, okay with their company, knowing everything about them and what they're doing on the job. However, I think a lot of people don't like it.

Joel (21m 56s):

And I think that does help drive people to Upwork and Fiverr and the gig economy and Uber driver and Door Dash delivery. Like I don't, a lot of people don't want to be under a microscope and live in 1984 when they go to work and knowing that they are on camera and everything that they do is taped and everywhere they go is monitored. I mean, we've talked to companies that like put shit in your eye, you know, your Apple watch to know your heart rate and when you're stressed and what's like, where it's going to next level shit. And I don't know if people, a lot of people won't be comfortable with it, which I think is going to drive a lot of the gig economy and people like being independent contractors because I don't want that kind of monitoring in my life.

Joel (22m 39s):

And I know a lot of other people don't.

Chad (22m 42s):

Yeah. And anything that is employee monitoring bad, stop it now. Let's just get that off the table. Right. That's just, that's just bad. There's no reason for it. If they're not hitting the outcomes, then that's the reason why you either put them on a plan or you fire them. Not because they weren't at their desk at the time that, you know, you thought they should be at their desk, but there are some good points of data. But unfortunately we, especially in TA and HR are all creatures of habit. And in general companies will continue fighting to suppress data around transparency, right? Until they are forced to be more transparent, that's going to have to happen again through regulation.

Chad (23m 23s):

But when that happens, HR and TA groups will then be forced to dig into that data, identify the good, bad, and ugly, and then make adjustments accordingly. Unfortunately, I believe it's going to be a curse until HR and TA pros are forced to understand that it's probably the greatest weapon in helping them actually hire and retain people better. We have to understand everything that we have in stop looking at everything first as a risk and start looking at how we can actually utilize the data to make our environment, to be able to make our hiring and our retention better.

Joel (23m 59s):

Like what's accelerating a lot of this is like the pandemic. So the work from home movement companies are freaking out about, oh my God, people are at home, not working. We have to monitor them more than ever before. So, I mean, it's just, it's being exacerbated. Company's desire to track everything that you do because work from home is more of a reality than ever before.

Melanie (24m 19s):

Yeah. Don't you think though, that actually most organizations have had a lot of data for a long time and they don't know how to use it. Right. So, or they pick the wrong data points. So I remember working in one business where one of the data points was the number of applications and you could have a thousand applications and only one person be actually suitable for the role because they haven't read the job description right. That's the data point. That doesn't mean anything right. For me.

Chad (24m 42s):

Right. I agree. A hundred percent. I think one of the things that we do incredibly wrong in TA and HR is we don't think like business people, right? So we come up with stats like cost per hire. Does the, C-suite give a damn about what the costs per hire are? No, but how does that actually affect the bottom line? If we can start to create narratives and start to dig deeper into data that we do have that's actually relevant and means something to the C suite. Then we've got something. Right. Then we've got something. The problem is that won't happen until we are forced. Unfortunately we're dumb humans until we're actually forced down that path.

Chad (25m 25s):

And unfortunately to me, I only see like the DEI types of bias and regulation popping in to force transparency, especially around wages, workforce trends, composition, those types of things to force HR, TA in companies to make better decisions.

Joel (25m 42s):

Boom. There you go.

David (25m 44s):

Thank you both for your time. It's been interesting to chew over a few areas around HR tech. So I appreciate you giving up some time reasonably early in the morning. Right? So thank you. So all three of you, if anyone we'll just recap, if anyone does want to find out more and listen to Chad and Cheese, it's on Spotify. It's on Apple. It's

Chad (26m 4s):

It's everywhere.

Joel (26m 8s):, baby

David (26m 8s):

Oh sending people to a website. All right. Okay.

Chad (26m 11s):

So nineties.

Joel (26m 11s):

I'm old, man. I told you.

David (26m 13s):

But thank you very much for your time and fingers crossed. We might bump into you at another conference

Chad (26m 22s):


Joel (26m 22s):

Word. We out.

OUTRO (27m 12s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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