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The Pull-Out Method

We cover a lot of countries in Europe on this episode, which is why we brought Oana Iordachescu, a talent acquisition specialist at Wayfair - who's worked in just about every country while at places like Facebook, and Criteo - on the show.

Where to begin our journey?

Of course, there's Ukraine and Russia, where a wide variety of corporations are pulling-out of Russia in light of the invasion. Then there's France, where Macron has started his reelection campaign, and to Germany where Zenjob has nabbed significant funding; then we head to the UK where they're humanizing the prison system and to Spain, where it's a tale of two cities, where the educated are happily employed, while the uneducated young are in dire straits. Want more?

One of the cohosts has been banned on Reddit! ...and of course, Lieven continues his love affair for Elon Musk.

INTRO (5s):

Some podcasts, do it for the fun. Some do it for the fame, Chad and Cheese they do it for global effin domination. That's why bringing America to its knees was just the beginning. Now they have their eyes set on conquering Europe and they've drafted industry veteran Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze of Belgium to help them navigate the old country and bring HR's most dangerous podcast across the pond to trash-talk like never before. Not safe for work in any language. The Chad and Cheese podcast does Europe.

Joel (39s):

Yeah. With war raging, a pair of Ukrainian civilian soldiers were married in Kyiv on Sunday, flanked by their fellow soldiers. A little light in the darkness, people that's what you'll find here. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast does Europe. I'm your cohost Joel "all you need is love" Cheeseman.

Chad (58s):

This is Chad "no fly zone" Sowash.

Lieven (60s):

And I'm Lieven "banned from Reddit" Van Nieuwenhuyze.

Joel (1m 4s):

And on this episode, the world embraces the pull-out method, a little less anarchy in the UK and more Ilon love from our favorite Belgian. Let's do this.

sfx (1m 16s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Chad (1m 19s):

Okay. I got, I gotta to know how did Lieven get banned from Reddit? Out of all of us! Banned from Reddit! How'd that happen?

Lieven (1m 28s):

I suggested that someone put a fire on the beard of one Chechen terrorist, and they claim that's asking for violence. And that's a reason to ban me from Reddit.

sfx (1m 37s):

Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Lieven (1m 41s):

I mean, with a beard like that, he was asking for it,

Joel (1m 45s):

Our listenership just ten Xd on that news. That we have a co-host that's been banded by Reddit. That's fantastic for ratings.

Lieven (1m 54s):


Chad (1m 54s):

Let's see what the mystery guests has to give us. I'm wondering if she's been banned from Reddit,

Joel (1m 59s):

She maybe gone at this point.

Chad (2m 0s):

Yeah. That's a good point. It's a good point. So today we have head of TA tech in the EU for Wayfair. Welcome to the show. Oana Iordachescu I know I just totally mutilated your name.

Oana (2m 18s):

Yes. I was Just going to leave because you didn't handle that one well.

Chad (2m 23s):

Damn it. I'm trying.

Oana (2m 24s):

In the practice folks he did pretty well so I give you that.

Joel (2m 31s):

The cash cow.

Chad (2m 32s):

Tell us a little bit more about you. Humbled beginnings and Romania. Tell us about Oana.

Oana (2m 38s):

Yes. Do I have to, I think I'm lucky with this type of job. It's a bit like developers you can go anywhere. So hi everyone. Oana Iordachescu here, indeed originally from Romania started in talent acquisition technology has been my bread and butter for the past 10 years. And then I managed to actually move to Dublin, Ireland where I worked with Facebook, moved to Amsterdam a bunch of years after with and had the opportunity to build an AI lab, a specific team in Paris. And I'm in Berlin working with Wayfair and building an amazing team. So thank you for having me on the show.

Joel (3m 15s):

Oana has some skills son.

Chad (3m 17s):

What's your favorite place you've lived thus far?

Oana (3m 20s):

People always ask me this and I do not have one, but I would say this, if you are a family, kind of, if you're going to have a family oriented person go to Amsterdam. Indeed, baby-making city. Right? For sure. But if you're like sports, go to Dublin, if you like fun then go to Berlin, Paris, like you can find your thing anywhere. Right. So find your thing.

Chad (3m 47s):

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't hear you say Portugal anywhere. Is that next? Are you going to go to Portugal next?

Oana (3m 57s):

Who told you that?

Joel (3m 57s):

Chad knows.

Oana (3m 58s):

No, I'm kidding. But to be honest, Lisbon is one of my favorite cities.

Chad (4m 1s):

Excellent. Well, Cheeseman, you want to get in to them? Shout outs?

Joel (4m 5s):

Speaking of sexiness, I got a shout out for everybody. My shout-out goes to Emmanuel Macron.

Chad (4m 16s):


Joel (4m 17s):

Macron. Not since DeGaulle have Americans known of the French prime minister as much as him. So, last week, Emmanuel Macron announced he would run for a second term in April's French election, seeking a mandates to steer the Eurozone second largest economy through the fallout from Ukraine and COVID. If successful, he would be the first French leader in two decades to win reelection. I like his style. He's a bit of a pit bull on Putin. And he put the smack down on the non-vaxers by saying no café for you. French leaders are largely invisible to us Americans, but Macron has stood out. Good luck in April mon frere, shout out to Emmanuel Macron.

Chad (4m 59s):

Imagine that. So, Lieven and Oana, what are your thoughts of Macron versus kind of like the other European leaders? He has stuck out a lot, but is that not just because he's just a good looking guy, kind of like Canada, you don't really remember anything about Canada, but they get a good look in Justin Trudeau and then, you know, he seems to be everywhere. So what are your thoughts?

Oana (5m 26s):

Definitely beauty bias. We all know it's real. Right?

Chad (5m 31s):

It is!

Oana (5m 31s):

Do you remember who was before. Nobody knows. Right?

Chad (5m 36s):

Right, yeah.

Oana (5m 37s):

So to be honest, I am very curious because his competitors, I'm not a big fan of Macron, but I'm even a less fan of the others. I'll just close it there.

Joel (5m 49s):

Why are you not a fan of Macron?

Chad (5m 52s):

He's french.

Joel (5m 53s):

He's french.

Oana (5m 54s):

France is big and very diverse. Right. And I think his approach is very much we have this white, rich dudes, which I need to serve kind of situation and not the rest. Sorry.

Chad (6m 8s):

What about you Lieven that's that seems like it's gone right down your lane?

Joel (6m 11s):

You live next to Macron don't you Lieven?

Lieven (6m 13s):

Yeah, that's pretty close. I was in Paris last week. I didn't see him, but we don't frequent the same places I guess. The only thing I know about Macron is that he is into old women, that's mostly.

Chad (6m 32s):

Older women.

Joel (6m 35s):

Let's not piss off every demographic on this show.

Oana (6m 38s):

He likes to be taught some lessons. Let's put it like that.

Chad (6m 41s):

There you go. I love that.

Joel (6m 41s):

We all like to be taught some lessons.

Chad (6m 43s):

I don't know that we've had that sound effect, played that many times on a podcast alone just the intro.

Joel (6m 51s):

We've never had Oana under cash cow on your show.

Chad (6m 54s):

Lieven you got a shout out?

Lieven (6m 57s):

Yep. Shout out to Elon Musk. Of course.

Chad (7m 0s):

Go figure.

Lieven (7m 0s):

For getting a building permit today for his new factory. And a fun part is he started building three years ago saying, and I quote, "we can't wait for those German bureaucrats to give us a permit" end quote.

sfx (7m 19s):

Hell yeah!

Joel (7m 19s):

Ilon spreading his love all across Europe. I'm so excited!

Lieven (7m 24s):

I love him. Elon for president

Joel (7m 28s):

Of the world.

Chad (7m 28s):

Shout out to Zenjob, a gig marketplace platform, targeting students and others, looking for side hustles in sectors like retail, logistics, hospitality operating in Germany, the Netherlands and the UK. They just received 46 million euros and series D taking their total funding to about 98.4 million euros. Zenjob says they will use the money to further expand into Europe. So we've talked about platforms like Job and Talent who now go figure have a shit ton of cash. Zenjob is literally another one of these types of platforms based out of Germany. Personally, I think this is the staffing industries operating system of the near future.

Chad (8m 12s):

What do you think Lieven? So you're in the whole staffing piece of the world?

Lieven (8m 18s):

Today. It's better to be a stuffing platform than a staffing company. It's good for the value of valuation how you say it? Is the higher value.

Chad (8m 31s):

Well, here's a great quote from the article on TechCrunch, "we have roughly 75% fully automated processes. And our aim is to get north of 95% in the near future" end quote. So this is what staffing looks like, right? I mean, tech to drive quick replacements, less head count and more margin, obviously. So, I mean, this is organizations like House of HR, investing in actually developing your own perspectively acquiring, this to me, looks like what every staffing company has to do.

Joel (9m 4s):

What's the valuation on those guys?

Chad (9m 7s):

Good question.

Joel (9m 8s):

Well, I'm getting tired of not plan the unicorn soundbites. So goddammit people let's get that cash register flowing again. Cause I'm missing the pink fluffy unicorns. That's just me probably.

Lieven (9m 16s):

Yeah, it just kind of catchy.

Chad (9m 20s):

We got events coming up, right?

Joel (9m 22s):

This is where Lieven it's time to shine, man. Lieven. You got some event coming up soon.

Lieven (9m 30s):

Ah, that already mentioned it erecruitment Congress House of HR's organizing on the sixth of May in Ostend, Belgium. We lost COVID, we got Putin, but you're still welcome.

Joel (9m 41s):

And Lieven if someone wants to sponsor that event, are you accepting sponsors at this point?

Lieven (9m 47s):

From time to time? I am, but I'm very, very picky.

Chad (9m 50s):

Did those cheapskates over at LinkedIn finally sponsor. I mean, this seems like a no brainer for them

Lieven (9m 56s):

Of course, because if you take into account a huge contract we just signed with LinkedIn you'd would be all over me trying to get me, offering them a contract to sponsor, but let's say they starting and do it and we might have a bigger one next year, but I'm welcoming them anyway. Thank you LinkedIn for sponsoring our Congress.

Joel (10m 18s):

Sorry. I got to ask we have a TA pro on the line. Oana give us your thoughts on LinkedIn? Are you a fan? Do you like it better than Macron? Like where are you on the LinkedIn spectrum?

Oana (10m 36s):

It does the job. Right? So while it it's becoming quite monopolistic, I would say, is that a good word? Is that a word?

Joel (10m 42s):

Very much so.

Oana (10m 44s):

Yeah. I mean, you can't debate it. Right? Many people use it, then everybody would be like, oh, but you should use anything else. Yeah. Yeah. We all need it.

Joel (10m 55s):

It's the drug they all need Chad. No, one's getting off it.

Chad (10m 58s):

It's the cocaine man. That's the cocaine.

Joel (11m 0s):

Life is good at LinkedIn. Lieven?

Lieven (11m 3s):

But I know I really liked LinkedIn. I mean, there's nothing as good as LinkedIn when it comes to a self-sustainable databases. So I must say thank you, LinkedIn. Your product is okay. It could be better, but every product can be better. And next time you will sponsor more but I'm happy you sponsor already. So welcome LinkedIn.

Chad (11m 27s):

Welcome LinkedIn. And we have July RecruitFest is happening. July 6th. Knebworth Park. Yeah. If you are in Europe and you're not going to Belgium for the erecruitment Congress, you're not going to RecFest, what are you doing? It's time to get the hell back out there. Let's do this or just type in RecFest 2022 into Google and get registered for both events. Topics!

Joel (11m 56s):

All right. Let's talk about Russia. Shall we that's come out in the news? I haven't heard this much about pulling out since my days at Sigma Kai. All right. We know governments are putting the smack down on Russia in light of their invasion of Ukraine, but corporations are going hard to the hole too. Here's a list of some of the most prominent boycotts impacting Russia. New today, as we record this on a Monday China-based TikTok said it was suspending live-streaming in Russia, Microsoft suspends all new sales, Apple said no more iPhones for you and blocked Apple pay as well as its streaming service.

Joel (12m 36s):

Electronic arts said no FIFA '22. I hear soccer's kind of popular in Russia. Ikea has closed its 17 stores. Russia is its 10th largest market so there's a little pain on that one. Chad's favorite Air Mez has closed all its stores. Nike has said no more Air Jordans. Netflix has gone black. Airbnb has taken away the welcome mat. Spotify has turned down the volume to zero. Mercedes BMW and Harley Davidson have sped away. Boeing and Airbus have flown the coop. Who are we still waiting on? McDonald's, Pepsi and Coca-Cola. Whew. Capitalism has stepped up everyone. What do you take away from this?

Joel (13m 16s):

And most importantly, who's ready to boycott the Big Mac?

Oana (13m 19s):

How do you see this from there? Right? You see all these massive corporations, which are chipping away a bit out their yearly budget, quite a bit here and there. Right? And as we, the sanctions, we just, I even hear like for me, I don't necessarily see how people feel or feel this impact, right? Like we don't hear interviews with them. I don't necessarily see a lot of communication from the ground. So in a way we will say we've done all these things, but are they done implemented today? What's the effect expected? Because in my opinion, a lot of people who shouldn't suffer from this are suffering from this. And I'm not sure if it actually hits Putin in any way.

Chad (13m 58s):

So I mean sanctions and these companies pulling out or like a boa constrictor doesn't kill its prey quickly, but ever so slowly. And then, you know, life has obviously squeezed out of it. The problem is the life being, obviously, those poor people in Russia because yes, Putin still getting fed, right? He still has the silver spoon, but the question is what can we do to be able to make it harder on him? And one of the things that I noted that that Joel didn't mention is that Disney and Warner Brothers are suspending their release of The Batman.

Joel (14m 39s):

Good point.

Chad (14m 41s):

Yep. Right. To Russia, US his biggest export is pop culture. Russia loves pop culture, US pop culture, right? Knowing that this is not bad for Putin. And Putin probably loves this because getting less Americanized is exactly what he wants. But yeah, but this is, this is again, trying to, I think, unsettle the mass population over there to actually do something about this.

Joel (15m 3s):

No Batman or Buzz Lightyear for you, Russia. Sorry about that. So, yeah, dude, we are connected more than ever before. Capitalism is a big part of that. Russians don't want to go back or at least younger ones don't want to go back to the days of the USSR. They want iPhones, they want Starbucks. And of course they want TikTok. If you're going to stop the war to me, it's becoming more evident that internal pressure may be the best way to ouster Putin. We're seeing this with protests in Russia, which is a huge risk to the protesters, by the way, a lot of them are in jail and probably some of them are dead. And watching businesses take a place besides government or beside government to me is real inspiring. You know, all oligarchs, losing yachts and football teams on this on one side, and then everyday Russians losing Nike's and Netflix on the other may prove more powerful than bombs.

Joel (15m 52s):

When all, when all of a sudden done in this.

Lieven (15m 55s):

Nope, I totally agree. I think it's double, you have the 150 million Russians who are getting annoyed because they come to whatever they were doing anymore. And you can be all the Putin you want to be, if 150 million Russians are annoyed, you better behave.

Chad (16m 13s):


Lieven (16m 13s):

And then there are those 20 or something oligarchs, which are billionaires. And I can imagine it must be extremely frustrating. You've been stealing from the people for 20 years. And then at last you're a billionaire and you have to drive a Lada because Mercedes and BMW aren't delivering anymore in Russia, or you have a yachts and the people are getting your yachts chained. So it's no fun at all being a billionaire anymore. So I think those two groups of 20 billionaires and there are 150 million Russians, if they collaborate, Putin's got a problem. That's the whole idea.

Oana (16m 43s):

Do you think for the fans of Elon Musk. Maybe he'll pop in with a big offering, right? Like if all the big car brands are pulling out, he can make a lot of sales? But all in all, I think it's a very interesting sign of solidarity from this massive corporations that we haven't seen before in any other context at this scale. I think it will all be cool to watch for the next, hopefully not long, right? But I'm curious if this lasts for months, maybe a year, who knows, would they keep their position?

Chad (17m 12s):

Going to be a lot of pressure and it's not going to happen overnight. And in the US we are all, I mean, we're a part of the 24 hour news craziness. And it's like, you know, we look for things to happen too quick. This is a boa constructor in this case. But I have to say shout out to Grammarly. Their Ukrainian board and founders will donate all of their net revenue earned from Russia and Belarus since the war started in 2014, through 2022. So creating a $5 million fund, its founder said in a statement. Over the past week, Grammarly has already given $1 million to Ukraine humanitarian groups.

Chad (17m 55s):

So big names stepping up, either pulling out or giving.

Lieven (18m 1s):

Well, I think Putin called it's almost a declaration of war. All those punishments, all those sanctions. So it must be hurting in some sort of a way. And the Russian space agents said something like we won't sell you any more rockets, you can fly to the ISS space station on a broomstick. So it must be getting on their nerves some way or another. Yeah, but I'm sure Elon Musk will call us next SpaceX model the broomstick. So the questions will be right after all. Russians are trying to head back and just a few hours ago, they published a list of states they consider unfriendly and friendly towards Russia. And I looked at the lists and it's quite a long list of many states are unfriendly, but Belgium was not on it.

Lieven (18m 48s):

I mean, San Marino is on it, and Iceland is on it. Canadians are on it. Belgium is not on it. It's insulting. I think he should reconsider.

Joel (19m 0s):

If only you could take to Reddit to this Russia to get on that list. But unfortunately

Lieven (19m 5s):

I've been banned from Reddit. This is a great day.

Joel (19m 10s):

Real quickly too guys, obviously companies in Russia are feeling the pain from all this and just real quickly in our industry. Another frozen stock belongs to the leading recruitment marketplace in Russia, Head Hunter group. The NASDAQ listed company has not yet provided any official statements on the impact of the crisis on its current activities. Its share price however has nosedived around 67% since mid February. If you don't know Head Hunter, they run numerous recruitment sites across former Soviet bloc countries. However, they are not in Ukraine and its business may be affected if some of these countries decide to take punitive measures against Russian companies.

Joel (19m 50s):

So if you're a Head Hunter group shareholder, you're feeling a lot of pain around now.

sfx (19m 53s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Joel (19m 57s):

All right, let's talk a little anarchy in the UK or in this case, a little less anarchy hopefully. The UK gets smart, it's about time, with its prisons. Britain's first "smart" that's in quotes, prison design with smart technology and with no bars on windows, windows opened recently, it's a project expected to drive down crime and create job opportunity. Or what else is new? Cells will be called rooms. Prisoners will be called residents and the 1700 capacity prison will also feature a gym, snooker table, you haven't played snooker in a while, table tennis and a computer tablet to help prisoners gain new qualifications and skills.

Joel (20m 42s):

This is the first jail in the country to have been designed with education, training and jobs for prisoners on release as its main purposes. Okay, everyone, is this the future of prisons or is the UK getting too soft on crime?

Lieven (20m 58s):

Go to your room. A whole new explanation. I'm kind of a fan. I like it. I mean, at House of HR we have a project that's a non-profit organization called job routes and we try to match inmates with companies and an actual job interview.

Chad (21m 12s):


Lieven (21m 12s):

Yeah, it's really nice. I like it. And the job interviews are taking place in prison, when the people are still in prison. So the moment they get out, they have a job and we have some clients who are really open to this and who go to the prison to talk to those inmates. And it's important for a self-esteem or we can offer them a prospect. Some kind of future.

Joel (21m 30s):

How long have you been doing this?

Lieven (21m 32s):

A few years already. Do you have any numbers around it? I could check them out. I don't know them by heart, but maybe we should get back on this. I could invite the CEO of the project to have a talk.

Joel (21m 44s):

That's fantastic. Didn't know about that. That's great.

Lieven (21m 45s):

So yeah, I'm a believer. I think it's a good idea. And I know it's the American way to be as harsh as possible on inmates, but I don't think that's the way. I once saw a documentary, is that the name of a television show on jails in the United States? And there was the president of the jail. How do you call him the director? And he sat, he was very proud. He said, my dogs get $3 a day fruits and the inmates only $1 a day. And it made them feel really good indeed. And I thought, damn, that's not human at all.

Chad (22m 22s):

Welcome to America.

Oana (22m 23s):

Everyday, interesting project. And for Europe, European countries, we do see this quite a bit. A lot of countries are actually Sweden, even Germany, a bit, they start saying we actually don't have enough prisoners because the focus is so much on rehabilitation, reintegration in society. If we talk about let's say longer sentences and how you actually disconnect and dissociate. So this is interesting. What is this distinguishing this from let's say current other prisons, which I would say they're very social and again, focused on education. Is the smart thing, this, I didn't really get Chad like when Joel, what do they mean by the smart prison?

Oana (23m 3s):

Is it because there's more technology in it or I'm actually a bit curious there.

Chad (23m 8s):

Yeah. I mean, that's part of it. That's part of it. I mean, it's not just a smart prison because of the technology that they're using, but they are, it's also smart because they're training people to go back to work. And here's some numbers. In the UK, 75% of inmates re-offended within nine years of release and 39.3% within the first 12 months, the US has one of the highest recidivism rates at a 76.6% of prisoners who are rearrested within five years. And then you take a look at countries like Norway who are at 20%.

Chad (23m 49s):

Right. And we've got to ask ourselves, what in the hell are we doing wrong?

Oana (23m 54s):

Quite a bit.

Chad (23m 55s):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think in just to throw this out there real quick, if you go to Netflix, look for 13th, that is the documentary. It might've been the documentary that you saw Lieven. I've watched it probably three times and it is amazing, but it's called 13th.

Lieven (24m 13s):

Could be, I'm not sure.

Oana (24m 14s):

I'm not sure unless I'm bingeing now on a Netflix show called For Life. And, it has like the warden, then you were saying live in the, the warden in this prison.

Lieven (24m 28s):

Yes that is the word I am looking for worden.

Oana (24m 29s):

Is trying to push reforms and focus on act like it's a rehab processes inside the prisons, which usually are like a big drug consumption place, but education as well, and cultural awareness and everything like that. So yeah. Watch the show, read the article. It will be interesting to see a new era of treating this topic. It shouldn't be down to just correction and punishment, but reintegration and access to community. Right? So kudos to them. Let's say so.

Joel (24m 59s):

Yeah, this is going to be a European phenomenon for the foreseeable future. America loves its jails. America loves locking up people and with private jails, people are making a lot of money from having people in prison. So yeah, that, I think we look to Europe to kind of set the standard, but in my opinion, like this working is incredibly important. And if it doesn't work, it's going to derail humanizing prisons for decades to come. Whether it's in Europe or in America. They're launching six prisons in this experiment and they're spending, I think a whopping 4 billion pounds to see that this works.

Lieven (25m 34s):

That's a lot.

Joel (25m 34s):

The government hopes to create thousands of jobs for local communities while rehabilitating thousands of offenders and keeping the public safe. So to me, the stakes are incredibly high that this works. They're spending a lot of money, you know, they're choosing a lot of prisons to make this happen. So I'm certainly rooting for them. And I know everyone on this call as well, prisons need to be more human. We need to think more about, you know, drug abuse and mental health and things like that. It should be a goal for every community, but it's also a political minefield when you do this and people want to be reelected. And when you talk about the security of communities, that's kind of high on people's minds when they reelect their politicians. So there's a lot at stake here.

Joel (26m 14s):

A lot of minds that can be stepped on, and I'm hoping that this works out well for everybody. And this is a trend that, that continues in Europe and hopefully within the rest of the world and eventually to the good old United States.

Chad (26m 31s):

Yeah. Well, I think what we're seeing here is, is there's no question the US has the biggest population of incarcerated individuals in the world per capita. But as we talk to the CEO of his 70 million jobs project, he'd said, you know, we're getting to the point here in the US where, you know, when they become us. And there are so many people who are actually in jail and prison, incarcerated that we're starting to see the impact and the actual, you know, human beings here in the US who are not in jail we know somebody who were touched by this, right? So I think this is going to be a big change.

Chad (27m 12s):

And you know, the US obviously needs to watch this very closely since we are the worst country in the world, when it comes to prisons and recidivism. Prisons should be used as incubators for countries in helping retrain and place those citizens back into their communities.

Lieven (27m 28s):

That's right.

Chad (27m 29s):

Right? So all of these, these people who are quote unquote, "afraid" they've bought into this fucking boogeyman for too goddamn long, because politicians wanted to be able to make money on these private jails and prisons. Now, all that shit is touching regular Americans. It's starting to change, and hopefully we'll be able to change like the Europe in the UK.

Lieven (27m 49s):

Okay, true. And if you say it costs a whopping $4 billion, that's enormous. So at least they can try to give something back to the economy and to the community and retrain those people. If you're detained for, let's say three, four or five years, it's a perfect moment to study. So I'm not saying you should a rescale a burglar to become a locksmith or anything. Let's say the owner of a crack lab to become a pharmacist assistant. That would be cool. But it's just a perfect moment to give those people the opportunity to study and to make something out of their lives. Yeah.

Joel (28m 24s):

Yeah. I'm curious. Oana, you've worked for a wide variety of companies. Were any of the companies you worked for was their initiative to employ former prisoners, or was there any chatter or talk about doing that? Any experience with this from the employment or the employer level?

Oana (28m 42s):

Pretty much where I've been being in very focused tech companies? I think the only, let's say community driven where the impact was really high, where I more refugee reincorporation, reeducation, or even providing language, internships and so on. But I think when we talk more about the businesses that have, as we let's say, for example, Amazon, right? And I think these organizations are starting to launch some initiatives when it comes to more a manual jobs or things that require a different path, but there's so much opportunity there. Right? I think we just don't explore it enough.

Oana (29m 24s):

And from my experience, at least in this, for example, when the refugee, the municipalities and the governments are so poorly prepared to provide this bridge of communication. So incorporating I don't know even databases, figuring out how to interview people in this, it's such a cumbersome process. And I hope that would be worked as well because there's no way to reach and get an answer that would say, oh yeah, let's start this. It's always like, mm let's talk next year, or this is not ready, or we don't encourage you to do that, which is crazy. Right?

Chad (30m 1s):

So, I mean, in his quote from the NDTV article "with 24 workshops in a large number of classrooms, residents will take part in formal learning courses, qualifications, and on the job training in areas, including coding, car maintenance, forklift, truck maintenance, plumbing, and engineering." Now think of that. Those are all things that we need at least I know that we here in the US. You guys need them over there as well. Think of the opportunity to pivot as necessary to, again, to be able to teach these individuals a vocation that they can step right out and they can jump right into a job. I mean, that to me is important. And when you think about it, if an individual can't find a job after they've been incarcerated, they've done their time.

Chad (30m 41s):

They can't find a job. They have to put food on the family's table. They have to have a roof over their family. What are they going to do? They're going to go back to what they know, and that's going to put them back in prison. We've got to give them options and we're not giving them options.

Joel (31m 4s):

Amen. Well, from the UK, let's jump down to Spain. This is from the FT, that's the Financial Times, Chad, in case you didn't know. This was a headline, "the Spanish paradox, why jobs are booming as the economy lags". It's not just clickbait everybody. Like the headline reads Spain created more than a third of all Eurozone jobs created last year. That's pretty impressive, but the economy remains in the doldrums. On one side, more people are now employed by sectors such as health, IT, and social services than was the case when COVID-19 hit just under two years ago. So what's the problem?

Joel (31m 44s):

Well, tourism for one last year, the number of foreign tourists visiting Spain and the money they spent were down more than 60% on 2019 levels. Additionally working hours are down because of fear the economy won't ever improve and high unemployment among young people is a major issue with youth unemployment at 31%. All right, everyone, what do you make of this situation? What's the solution? And is it maybe a good time to go visit Spain and goose that decline in tourism?

Oana (32m 18s):

I just say "Wow" for the youth unemployment. That's very dangerous, right? Like what is happening? Because, I mean, I'm sure there is a chain reaction from education access in certain cities. I think Spain is going through what we've seen a bit in the UK or Germany. A lot of these new jobs are being created in just specific areas. It's been huge. Right. So if you don't, let's say balance out accessibility to interesting jobs or balanced through the level of education. A lot of these new generations don't necessarily get to those ones. Like Spain is now importing talent in some areas, when we hear this comparing to the 30%, I'm like what's happening?

Oana (33m 1s):


Joel (33m 2s):

Yeah. And I think, you know, I think it's a real wake up call for them. They've relied so much on tourism, obviously. And to employ those young people in restaurants and hotels and resorts, and when all those things closed down, there's no safety net for those young folks. If you don't have an education in Spain, you are screwed. So it's a huge wake up call. And my fear is that the government is just hoping that the tourism comes back and that everyone starts spending money and hiring again. But if that doesn't happen or if something, a pandemic or war or something bad happens again, they're going to be in the same place. But so they really do need to think about education and their young people, when things go bad on the tourist side of things.

Lieven (33m 47s):

I agree. And you said something about the COVID, COVID creating some kind of an economic crisis, but you have to take into account. Spain was hit very hard by a crisis in 2008 and real estate market which was huge in Spain, mostly for tourism was overextended that crashed. Banks got into trouble. It was almost as bad as in Greece. And we have lots of financial support from European Union. And with some, how would I call it a discipline, which is something Spanish people don't always have. They got out of it, they got over the crisis and now they are pretty stable. So when COVID was hitting them, there was a setback, but it wasn't like the financial crisis because they have their basics right now.

Lieven (34m 29s):

The deficit on the budget is not, it's not gone, but it's in our control and things are going better. So I'm not surprised that they created so many jobs. But you are right youth unemployment is a great, great problem. And it's the same thing in Brussels, for example, where you have lots of people with a migration background, there was also a youth unemployment number of 30 percent in those circles. And that's a ticking time bomb because people who don't have the money and who are bored, they get into the smart prison.

Joel (35m 3s):

Where they finally get educated and get a good job.

Lieven (35m 7s):

Indeed. So the UK is going to solve all the problems.

Joel (35m 12s):

That's the cycle.

Chad (35m 13s):

And we'll do our best, our place. And Portugal is about 30 minutes from the Spanish border. So we'll go over. We'll spend some money there.

Joel (35m 22s):

Way to screw over the Spanish economy, Chad, buy your house in Portugal.

Chad (35m 26s):

It would help everything. So here in the US though, we're seeing major job growth due to earlier than expected retirement, lower numbers of immigrants, especially seasonal immigrants, mothers, still not fully back in the workplace and the list goes on. Are either one of you seeing the same issues in Europe? Are they just mainly are those just factors that are impacting the U S

Oana (35m 50s):

Those sound quite US focused things. I don't necessarily see this here. I think what's stopping people now is this concentration of, let's say good jobs or high volume of jobs in certain areas and certain cities. This has always been an issue, but I think pandemic makes hiring, like we are hiring from all over the world. And the anxiety is super high, when we ask people, this is your dream job. And they're like, I agree, but I do not want to take the risk of moving now and maybe being stuck there, not being able to visit my family for a year or two or who knows. Right? So it's a high level of anxiety for actually even migrating for jobs, right? Like even if it's within the same country, people don't want to take the risk or it's just too much unknown.

Oana (36m 30s):

Right? So this will continue, I suspect. This is a signal I would say to a lot of the organizations and just think more broadly around where they can find talent easier. It's going to be cheaper for them. You just need to be a bit mindful.

Lieven (36m 45s):

Yeah. Mobility, our job mobility. Isn't really growing at all and you're off. And there are many reasons. I mean, there are the languages. If you cross borders, you have to learn different languages in most cases. So that's the problem. And also there is just a real mobility. I don't like spending too much time in traffic and remote work as a possible solution. And it will evolve in that direction. But we'll see, it's not like in the US where we will have one economy, one giant country, one language, it's a different situation.

Chad (37m 20s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Lieven (37m 25s):

That's right.

Chad (37m 25s):

So, is remote work going to be part of the bridge to help out here? We see work trends, research provided by Textkernel, the following data was between 2018 and Q2 of 2021 around remote work. Netherlands jumped from 1.1% of remote jobs to 4.2 Belgium under 1% to 3.5. Spain before the pandemic, the possibility of remote work was hardly even mentioned in job ads, but in 2021, the percentage of jobs was 13 times higher than that of 2018. So we're seeing this huge growth. Do we think that this could perspectively help out the Spanish people, not just working in Spain, but working in Europe from Spain?

Joel (38m 11s):

I think it helps out, but I think that a lot of those jobs that are remote require, you know, education and certain skills that a lot of these young people apparently don't have, and they're relying on tourism and sort of local jobs to fill that void. So I think it could, but I think there's a bridge between education that's not being met that would fill those remote roles from my perspective.

Lieven (38m 36s):

Exact and the one Spanish guy I know Escano, he's a chief financial officer of House of HR, a great guy. He is, I think I don't want to insult him, but reaching 60. I think he's a bit older than I am. He once told me that the biggest gift you can offer your children is to invest in their education. I'm so certain it's true. And in Spain, it's probably even more true than here because the best universities, the most famous, not considered the best, but the most famous universities aren't situated in Spain.

Chad (39m 14s):


Lieven (39m 14s):

You're almost obliged to study abroad, which has extra expenses, et cetera.

Joel (39m 19s):

Go visit Spain, everybody. That's the takeaway. Lieven your next conference needs to be in Spain, maybe.

Lieven (39m 27s):

Okay. Okay. I'll consider it, maybe LinkedIn wants to sponsor more if I do it in Spain.

Joel (39m 31s):

There you go. LinkedIn, pay for a conference in Spain. Goddammit

Oana (39m 34s):

I'll do a shameless plug here. I'll be in Spain at a conference in June, Hired Barcelona. So they're starting. I think they're catching on the wave soon.

Joel (39m 44s):

There you go. Oana's starting the whole process. She's getting it rolling everybody. She's getting it rolling.

Chad (39m 50s):

Always give me a reason to go to Barcelona. Please call me. Love me some Barcelona.

Joel (39m 55s):

Well Oana, thanks for joining us. This has been so much fun and you've added so much to the conversation. If anyone wants to connect with you, where would you send them? Here's another LinkedIn plug coming.

Oana (40m 14s):

Exactly. Just LinkedIn.

Joel (40m 16s):

Got it. And everyone else, if you want to hear more European goodness, just head out to Lieven and Chad, another one in the books.

Chad, Joel and Lieven (40m 27s):

We out.

OUTRO (41m 2s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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