Dat Money keeps flowing in the Recruiting Tech world!
- Upwork is moving into full-on Enterprise / Monopoly mode
- We tease Smashfly and Emerson.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT sponsored by:
Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinions, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Hey, hey, hey. It's your boys Chad and Cheese ready to drop another episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast on your eardrums. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm so pissed right now.
Joel: All righty, on this week's show iCIMS goes "Choo, choo." Indeed's parent company gives Google for Jobs a Big FU, and Smash Fry introduces the world to Emerson. Stick around, I think Chad has a rant stewing inside him.
Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market, because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching visit sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com.
Chad: So much smart than human beings.
Joel: And that's not too hard to do if you're just on Facebook for a few hours.
Chad: It's not.
Joel: You got a rant inside of you, but we're gonna get the shout outs first-
Joel: ... and keep the audience waiting for this. I'm gonna start it off. Last week when I went off on HR Tech, justifiably so in my mind-
Joel: ... I said that Todd Raphael, my editor at ERE, had dropped an F bomb. And when I went back into the actual conversation there were no F bombs dropped. So although Todd relayed surprise that I was not given a press pass to HR Tech, he did not drop an F bomb. He's way too classy for that. It's idiots like us who drop F bombs in podcasts. So just wanted to clear that up. Todd, you're all good man, don't worry about it. No F bombs.
Chad: Well Ed from Philly didn't drop an F bomb but I bet he wanted to. So he actually tweeted, "Boo hashtag Chad and Cheese won't be at HR Tech." He's not happy. And he actually came up with his own hashtag, #FreeChadCheese.
Joel: Which I love it. I think t-shirts are in order, maybe bill boards in Vegas for the show.
Joel: Yeah, I love it. Thanks Z, appreciate it. Shout out for Jason Crowell. Last week I talked about Google dropping related searches on his homepage. And had a talk with him, he was the one who actually saw it first, that I know of, shared it. Talked to him, he gave some insight which we might have time for at the end of the show to discuss. But-
Joel: Jason, appreciate it. He's a recruiter out in Colorado for a trucking company there, so. Shout out.
Chad: Very nice. Well a couple of shout outs for our friends at jobAdX and Uncommon, who are going to be at HR Tech's startup Pitchfest. So if you're gonna be there, go to Pitchfest and check these guys out. Couple of awesome companies. jobAdX and Uncommon gonna be pitching out there.
Joel: Not to be mistaken with Bitchfest, which is what will be happening after hours when drinks are consumed.
Joel: Shout out to Jennifer Henley.
Joel: Some of you may have attended our webinar this week on high frequency hiring. Jennifer's an executive with NAS Recruitment Innovation. The webinar was sponsored by Talroo, so shout out to both them as well. But Jennifer did a great job. She's a mountaineer, which my wife really likes. And you know, let's go mountaineers! Shout out.
Chad: Shut up. So ... And also shout out to some of the attendees who participated. We got a bunch of participation that happens. Kathy Plum, Claudia, Adriana Maddox, Jacob, Michelle, and a bunch of others. Thanks for attending guys.
Joel: Did you just say Michelle and no last name?
Chad: Yeah, 'cause she had Michelle hyphen or some shit like that.
Joel: Michelle. Nice.
Chad: Michelle knows who she is.
Joel: That's nice.
Chad: Michelle knows who she is. If you haven't listened to last week's firing squad with ZAPinfo you have to listen to this episode. Doug Berg, who I call the grandfather of RMPs ... he didn't like that but still. He pitched, did a great job. Got to see how it actually came out in the wash, but you gotta listen. There is some really good history and some good innovation that's happening there.
Joel: Dougie Fresh, dropping a bomb on firing squad. Love it.
Joel: Well I'm gonna give I think our first shout out to Death Match-
Joel: Those of you know that we are in bed so to speak with TAtech, we're really engaged with those guys.
Chad: Oh man!
Joel: They came to us and said, "Guys, how do we liven up the show?" And after a few brain fart sessions we came up with Death Match, which is a final four competition pitting four startups against each other.
Joel: Chad and I are gonna be judges, we're gonna have a surprise judge. And then I guess another judge, hopefully to garner who the winner is. And for the first time we can finally mention Death Match as well as who the Death Match competitors are.
Chad: Yes! We have Uncommon, Canvas one of our favorite domains. Go canvas dot IO. Talkpush.
Joel: Push it, push it real good.
Chad: And Allio. So Uncommon, Canvas, Talkpush, and AllyO. And just so that you know, I would really appreciate it if you not say in bed with TAtech because 'peat and repeat, having that visual is never something I wanna have again.
Joel: Yeah we want people to attend the conference.
Chad: Shout out to Disability Solutions, our transcription peeps.
Chad: Okay so we're always giving people shit, we just did with Canvas, "'go Canvas dot IO" about their URLs. Well Disability Solutions had a very long URL, it was Disability Solutions at work dot org. And wanted to give them huge kudos, because they moved from that long ass domain to simply disability talent dot org.
Joel: It's amazing when brains actually come out in business, it's very nice and refreshing.
Chad: It was cool too though, because Doug said ... And this is one of the things that we always ask about the rebranding and what not, he said that he always has a name that he starts off with, with a company ... and Doug's sold plenty of companies. And it always evolves into something entirely different. So they went from WebClipDrop drop to ZAPinfo. And that's just, again, just a guy who's done this before. This is normal.
Joel: You know what that little story has made me think of?
Joel: Remember Itz Big?
Chad: Oh God yeah! IT ...
Joel: I-T-Z big I-G.
Joel: And they started out with, we don't know what it's gonna be but it's big, whatever we're doing. And they never changed it from that. And they're gone now. But good people behind the organization. But it made me think of Itz Big. So any of the old timers in the industry that remember Itz Big, just have a moment of silence for the death of Itz Big.
Chad: Yeah no shit.
Joel: It wasn't big.
Joel: My last shout out, again with TAtech, we're gonna be hopefully doing some video interviews, which we've never done before.
Joel: Peter Clayton, who a lot of people know does some stellar work with video and podcasting. We're gonna do these videos. If you, your company are interested in being interviewed by us and having some mad social media juice going out from that, go to chadcheese.com I think there's a link on the homepage, or you can reach out to us directly.
Chad: Last from my side, so this is something that you actually put in our Facebook group but you didn't say it so I'm going to.
Chad: There's a Glassdoor review on Career Builder. Here's the actual review, and quote: "Continuing to work at Career Builder now feels like looting a corpse." Okay so here's-
Joel: That's so good. If you're bored at work right now just go to Glassdoor and search Career Builder's reviews. It's ... they're just classic. They are entertainment galore.
Joel: So I actually have some gossip around Career Builder, which I know is a surprise. But apparently what I've heard is they have a new employee agreement that they have to sign with a disparagement clause that essentially says you will not disparage the company, talk shit at any time, prior to or after or in during your employment with Career Builder. So Career Builder, if that's true, is certainly noticing ... If anyone out there has a screenshot of the language that's in the new employee agreement please send it to us, 'cause we'd love to see it.
Chad: Yeah and just so you know, you're gonna stay anonymous. That's all there is to it. Just send us this stuff, if it's legit ... we're definitely gonna check sources, but send that shit to us.
Joel: I think it's time for a Chad rant.
Chad: Ah, dude.
Joel: Chad rant!
Chad: Yeah, so. Okay, so this is about clearances right? Security clearances and how they actually affect the workforce. Now stick with me here because this isn't political, but security clearances being ripped away from American assets, like John Brennan and Hayden and Comey and many more, have actually started the conversation that I've heard on the news and now on social media about why they just don't strip clearances from people after they leave service in the first place. I mean have you heard this?
Joel: I probably fell asleep during it. But I have heard mentions of some sort of security clearance issue.
Chad: So there are a couple of things here. So first off military veterans have always had an issue translating the skills and finding jobs. And we're always talking about trying to help military veterans find jobs in the civilian world after serving their country. Although ones equipped with security clearance, and individuals who have those security clearances, are much more marketable and can find jobs easier. Right? So when you have a security clearance and you're coming out into the civilian sector, working for a Lockheed Martin maybe some other federal contractor, you're more marketable.
Chad: So the thing is, if you're asking why, one of the reasons why is because for all of our veterans that are out there, it actually helps them get jobs much faster if they have the clearance. And security clearances aren't lifetime guys, they're renewable. So that means that you have to go through a vetting process again and again and again. So this isn't something that you just get handed to you.
Chad: And to give you an example, so I mean a certification to work in the intelligence community. Let's just look at it like that. So if I ripped a security clearance away from you after you left the federal government or military or what have you, it would be like if a developer leaves an organization and they lose all their certifications.
Chad: Right? It also ... Or maybe like a mechanic. Should they lose their ASE certification when they leave their employer and have to reestablish it again?
Chad: The cleared community, they depend on this. And it just makes damn good sense. We're looking at this the wrong way. We're looking it as why does this person have a security clearance? It should be more of America needs these individuals to have these clearances so that they can be read in, in certain circumstances, and be able to provide us with network, intelligence, and background. If they can't do that because they don't have a clearance, then guess what? They're not worth anything to us. And they are an asset. So just to let you know, it's good for our military and it's also good for individuals who have that knowledge to continue to get that clearance. So this just makes sense.
Chad: And for all of you out there in social media land, do your research, ask more probing and smart questions, and then you won't look like dumb asses when guys like me have to actually school you.
Joel: And you don't want to be schooled by Chad, believe me.
Chad: No. It's hard not to call you a fucking idiot on Facebook, let me tell ya. I don't, but it's hard not to.
Joel: We talk about DHI a lot and that's usually tied to dice, but we sometimes forget clearance jobs is one of their properties. And one of the only growing properties in their arsenal. So it's clear that this is a definite need, and it's an important topic. It's not necessarily my lane, but you go to town man if you need to rant on that.
Chad: It's a workforce thing, dude. And that's what we have to take a look at. We don't look at how things impact our work ad our people. This impacts our work and our people and our intelligence community overall. So rant over.
Joel: Nice. Can we talk about iCIMS?
Joel: iCIMS get paid this week. Announced on Wednesday I believe.
Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Joel: They ... Okay so iCIMS has raised roughly $92 million to date, which is not chump change. Now they've been around a long time. They've had one major investor in that time. They have a new one now. What's interesting about this, and your opinions are welcome, is they did an undisclosed amount of raise. Which is kind of odd when we're talking VC and equity type folks. They usually wanna let people know. So I'm not sure exactly what to read into that. Although I'm sure it wasn't in the £50,000 range, I'm sure it was a pretty significant amount of money.
Joel: But good for them. I mean my take aways are when you raise that kind of money there's usually an IPO in the future, there's a sale or something in the future to cash out that investment. I know that we talked to Colin Day and if you haven't listened to that interview you should do so. But taking money means investors that want cash out. So to me, am I gonna be shocked if we see an iCIMS IPO in the next two or three years? No. Or maybe an acquisition potentially, although I don't know who's going to acquire them. I would argue that ATS's are sort of becoming commoditized, although I'm sure every ATS would disagree with me on that.
Chad: I think we are in a place where we're continuing to see companies, not just start-ups, companies like iCims who have been around for well over a decade. Who, need to stay in front of the competition, or morph into something entirely different. The only way that they can do that, in the time that they see feasible, is to be able to take cash. It's the only way to do it.
Chad: They've been able to, obviously, evolve just with their own revenues, which I think is awesome. But again, to be able to spark that kind of growth and perspective development, it takes more money, it definitely takes more money.
Joel: Yeah. It almost feels like an arms race at this point.
Chad: It does.
Joel: There's so much money going into this industry. I think a lot of it too is being inspired by Google, Facebook, and Microsoft getting into it big time. Like, investors that see that say, "Wow. There's gold in them thar hills." They want to get a piece of that. Whether it's through acquisition by those companies, or retail investors getting excited because that space is heating up.
Joel: So yeah, the time is right. iCims, very smart people. I'm sure they wouldn't do this stupidly. I suspect that it will be a smart investment in the next few years.
Chad: Well remember, during the interview with Colin he called Google the savior of our industry. So, you know ... And, iCims is working very closely with Google on the enterprise API side of the house. So think of this, they are already starting to institute, or they already have, instituted Google search API into their job search. Now there's the candidate API search, that you've gotta know right now that iCims has been working hard with Google to be able to integrate that API, that candidate API job search in there.
Chad: So, the savior of our industry, putting all those APIs and things together. I think you can see where this is going.
Joel: Yeah. And I think we're going to see more acquisitions. Of course, we talked about the texture crude acquisition. Those guys have hired some nice C-Suite executives. They're moving up to next level stuff. So, it's fun to watch, and ups to them out there in New Jersey iCims.
Chad: It's pretty awesome.
Joel: Well, SmashFly is a company we don't talk about too much. Although we're doing an interview with them soon, their Head of Marketing, is that correct?
Chad: Yeah. JayZ.
Joel: For The Uncommon, the exclusive this month, JZ, yeah. So, we won't touch on this for too long, because I'm sure we'll talk about it in the interview. But, SmashFly introduced us to Emerson.
Joel: Their Chatbot, their AllyO competitor, I guess. Fortunately, there's finally a male name in the Chatbot world, which is refreshing. Because, there's just too much sexism in the Chatbot industry.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: Any thoughts on the introduction of Emerson?
Chad: No. I think it's awesome, because we actually had ... this is a major part of one of our Podcasts months ago. Where we talked about Paradox, Olivia, and HiringSoft. So, a couple of different organizations who were starting to partner with SmashFly. Now what we're starting to see is the fruits of that labor. I'm really looking forward to having the discussion with Josh, and really pressing them on what the Hell they're going to be doing to ... This is a very crowded space, what are they going to be doing to really push themselves ahead of everybody else?
Joel: My input on all this is, I've always thought that Chatbots were going to be commoditized. And, this was going to be a feature, instead of a separate product. To me, SmashFly plugging in a Chatbot into their solution, putting those conversations within their CRM. Putting in all the information. To me, it's just the fact that Chatbots are a feature, to make them an actual product, stand alone, is going to be really challenging.
Joel: I think companies like Olivia, where it's sort of a mobile only kind of thing, where it replaces text recruiting or text messaging, then it could work. But, I think we're going to start seeing Chatbots on every CRM, every ATS, this is just going to be something that everybody has, at some point.
Chad: Yeah, but here's the thing. You have to have companies like the Alios and The Canvas, and Olivia, and Paradox. To be able to do this right, and to really focus all of their cash in this area. And then, find ways to be able to monetize it. It might be a feature, but it's a feature that could perspectively sell a much bigger contract. And, for SmashFly to be able to say, "Look, we're not going to spend a lot of cash on this and try to develop this. Because all these other guys are doing it really well." Find somebody who marries up very well with them.
Chad: I'd like to see ... It's more than just a feature. It's something that will, and could, and I would assume right now, probably is helping sell big contracts.
Joel: Yeah. I see it more being one of those check box things. Right? 10/15 years ago it was, "Is your site SEO friendly? Are your URLs okay? Can Google find your stuff?" That used to be a product. And now, everyone has to have URLs that can be read by Google.
Joel: And then it was, "Is your site mobile?" And you had companies like Jive. "We're going to mobilize your website," right? And then all the ATSs said, "Okay, well we've got to be mobile optimized." And then, all those companies went away.
Joel: To me, this is the next feature that every ATS and what not is going to have. And, all these little players that do it exclusively are going to go by the wayside.
Chad: This is so much bigger than that. You're thinking very shallow on this.
Joel: No it's not.
Chad: It is totally. Because, this is also a process methodology piece, and engagement piece. So, it's so much bigger, because they're going to be able to collect more data than ... SEO, was just to be able to make sure that you were there to compete. This is actually focusing on gathering data and being able to do it in a much better way.
Chad: On the application side of the house, or also helping, in this case, as a recruiting assistant. So, it's bigger than those types of features. Was SEO big? Yeah it was big. Did it help companies? Yeah, not really, in most cases. Yeah, they checked a box. But in this case, and I think it will.
Joel: I'll edit, if you didn't benefit from SEO, it's your fault.
Chad: Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Chad: I agree.
Joel: Well speaking of a company that definitely benefited from SEO, Recruit Holdings, Indeed's sugar daddy, reported earning recently. They ain't afraid of no jobs from Google, apparently. They saw an 8.2% over year growth with the company. They called out Google specifically in the report. Which I thought was very interesting.
Joel: They said, "Even though the pundits, the Podcasters are talking about our death by Google. We're not seeing that." They claim 200 million unique visitors per month at Indeed. And Indeed is now claiming 120 million resumes. They're putting on a brave face. And keep in mind, Google for Jobs, I don't think has even been live for a year.
Joel: So, to talk about year over year growth is a little bit disingenuous. Because Google for Jobs hasn't been around that long. So, we'll see what their growth next year is, year over year. But yeah, they're keeping a brave face. Good for you Indeed.
Chad: Well, and Google for Jobs isn't even world wide yet. They're rolling out. Hell, they just hit Europe for God's sake, what, about a month ago? So yeah, Google for Jobs is in its infancy. This is all bluster and bullshit.
Chad: Okay Indeed, I totally get that you guys are making cash. We've talked about this, good for you, continue to make hay while you can. I'm going to beat a dead horse here. I remember when Monster was kicking everybody's ass. Yeah, that's not happening today. That didn't happen, because a little bitty site like Indeed came and whipped their ass.
Chad: This is an entirely different dynamic. We're talking about a brand that is in everybody's hand, and/or browser, and/or house. So, if you want to just try to push this off like it's, "Oh, Google for Jobs really is not impacting us right now." Yeah, no shit asshole. That's how it starts.
Chad: But if you want to continue with this brave face, I would assume you should probably continue to do that. But, make hay while you can. Because this day, my friend, will end.
Joel: By the way, we reported some sightings in the wild of Google putting related searches on their homepage for job searches. Which, I have actually seen quite frequently when I go to Google these days. I wrote a little story about an ARE that should come out soon.
Joel: But yeah, if Google starts pimping job search on their homepage, watch the numbers go up. Because, that is some very valuable real estate.
Chad: Yeah. Not to mention once again, Indeed is spending a shit ton of cash, and they have to, outside of the organic SEO that they used to be able to enjoy, because that's not there as much anymore.
Joel: You mean they don't have a homepage that billions of people visit?
Chad: No, yeah, yeah. And again, they're not a part of everybody's every day routines. So, this is the long game, there's no question.
Joel: Well if you're a recruiter, JobAdX should be a destination site for you every day. Let's hear from those cats, and we'll talk Upwork and PerkSpot. Say that real fast a bunch of times.
JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of," or, "It's the PayPal of," maybe, "They're the Facebook of." In many, many cases these comparisons fall short of being close to reality. Or, even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do.
JobAdX: In the of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google ad sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms. Real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool.
JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, quick application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret.
JobAdX: For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency, and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards. Higher rev share than other partners for a smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30-40 percent greater, and more through our scalable model.
JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com, or email us at joinusatjobadx.com to get estimates, or begin working together.
JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs.
JobAdX: Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent. JobAdX has just launched in the UK too.
Chad: Instead of, I would say, yes definitely, recruiters should be checking out JobAdX. But I mean, more on the agency side of the house, RPOs. To be quite frank, Talent Acquisition, they can't spell programmatic right now. They are way too busy doing too much other shit.
Joel: Come on now.
Joel: That's not nice.
Chad: No, I'm just saying they're way too busy doing too much other shit. It's not that they're not smart, it's that they do a lot of stuff. And, the RPOs, the agency staffing firms, those guys have a handle on this shit. And, that's one of the reasons why, it's their business to do it.
Chad: So definitely, if you're an RPO, you're an agency, you're a staffing company, you should definitely be checking these guys out.
Joel: Yeah, and if you run a job board, or some sort of publishing site, you should give them a call. They can help put some money in your pocket.
Chad: Good point.
Chad: We've been talking about-
Joel: One of my faves, I think.
Joel: This is an under reported story in our industry.
Chad: Yeah, I agree.
Joel: We talked about them going IPO. I don't have an update on that. But, they released an enterprise solution this past week. Which, I think is just a natural extension of what big companies, small companies, IT departments, and other departments are going to do. They're going to out-source contract projects, and it's probably going to be Upwork that manages that whole thing.
Joel: In their press release for the announcement, they mentioned that of Fortune 500 companies, only 28% of Fortune 500 companies and notable companies utilize Upwork to find and engage free lancers.
Joel: So, they have a long way to go, and a long road to snag up some of the Fortune 500 companies. I think they're going to see a ton of growth. I'm not recommending stocks, but depending on the valuation, it might be a pretty good company to get behind, going into the future.
Chad: Yeah. I agree. You said in earlier Podcasts that you could actually see ... Because again, you gotta take a look at the workforce today, and how hard it is to find people. Being able to take some of these full time jobs and chunk them into projects, makes more sense, in many cases. And having a person manage your Upwork work force, that could be something that would be happening in the near future. It might be happening right now. And if it is, definitely reach out to us and let us know. We'd like to hear the story.