This week's show starts out like s LOVE FEST and then goes south quickly... The boys talk:
- Joel hates on Indeed's ugly Christmas sweaters
- College kids are sharpening their coding chops with Youtube
Don't shoot your eye out, kids!Enjoy and visit sponsors JobAdX, Sovren and Canvas. They make it all happen.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations.
Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast.
Chad: Chad & Cheese!
Joel: Shitter's full, Clark. Welcome to The Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's ugly redheaded stepchild. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.
Joel: On this week's show, Microsoft gives us a glimpse into their next big acquisition in employment. Companies are handing out branded fruits and vegetables. Chad's excited. And Chad gets a stiffy over Indeed's latest swag.
Chad: Love it!
Joel: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. And, kids, don't shoot your eye out.
Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI Matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches. It tells you how and why it produced them, and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N .com.
Chad: How you feeling after last week's procedure? Like a new man?
Joel: See, everyone got TMIed last week. I don't know why we have to do it again this week. But, yes, my procedure, a camera stuck up my butt, went fine.
Joel: I'm gonna live a little longer so you and I can continue to pollute the ear drums of our listeners-
Joel: ... for the foreseeable future. Hallelujah!
Chad: That's exactly what I wanted to here. And that's what the listeners wanted to hear.
Joel: That's right. And speaking of listeners, let's get to shout-outs.
Joel: Shout-out to Hung Lee, man.
Joel: This guy's he's got a weekly newsletter that millions of people read I think. He loves us. So he said last week, "Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman," I'm not sure why he put you first, but anyway, "do the best industry this week podcast for the people business. It's hard to stay consistently relevant, but these two heroes have got it down to a fine art. Must listen, folks." Wow.
Chad: Yeah. No, he's on it.
Joel: Hung Lee with a-
Chad: Hung and I have been talking back and forth. We've been for months now. We are going to get him on for an interview in 2019. That's a promise from Chad & Cheese. That's probably why he went with Chad first because it is Chad & Cheese.
Joel: I'm surprised he hasn't been on now. He should just be on the show. The British accent alone would help raise the IQ of the place. But the guy seems he's pretty well connected.
Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've got a shout-out to Gattaca, bitches. So-
Joel: Way to age yourself.
Chad: ... shout-out to Jim Stroud's newest podcast about designer babies, where he talks about Gattaca. And I thought that was the coolest shit ever. So Jim's got a new podcast. It's like 10 minutes long or something like that.
Joel: He's always copying us.
Chad: Yeah. Well, he loves us. So who [crosstalk 00:03:38]?
Joel: Biting off the Chad & Cheese. It's all good. Jim, good luck to you, man. Gattaca, a movie that has aged pretty well I think.
Joel: Good for ... And as well as I, Robot, the Will Smith movie. I think both of those have aged better than they were when they first aired.
Chad: Yeah, but I think, I mean Gattaca's been around I think much longer.
Joel: '90s, yeah.
Chad: Ethan Hawke. Yeah, that was good shit, dude. So, yeah, I love it.
Joel: Agreed. I'll give a shout-out to Harver, not Harvard, Harver, which I had never heard of before. But they thought enough of us to put us in their top 10 list of must-listen podcast, saying about the show, which ... By the way, we don't normally love these sort of lists because they trick us into talking about their company. But these guys actually had a write-up, and it sounds like they actually listen to the show.
Joel: So what they said was, "The problem with a professional podcast is that they sound like a lecture. They may be full of useful information, but they're boring. Rather than retaining insights or tips, do you find yourself zoning out? But not with The Chad & Cheese Podcast," and go on to tell about how our show is different. So Harver, this shout-out's for you. Thanks for mentioning us, and thanks for listening, because you obviously do.
Chad: Subscribe not just 2019. Do it now. Shout-out to Indeed ugly sweaters.
Joel: Oh, God, no.
Chad: I told you weeks ago this shit was genius. But the motherfuckers took my idea. Good on them. Good on you, Indeed. But that was genius shit. Good job.
Joel: I can't get behind the ugly sweater. These guys pulled out the baby bathrobes earlier this year, which we grilled them for. You love the ugly sweaters. I think they're totally ridiculous. I think people wear them once at the company party.
Joel: And then it's over. To me, this stuff just says hubris. It says, "We've got too much money to spend it intelligently." And it's just more writing on the wall that Indeed is on their way to the cellar.
Chad: I don't agree at all. Baby bathrobes maybe. But this, this is target market. Love it.
Joel: Shout-out to, I'm gonna probably butcher this, Elin or [Ellen 00:05:58], she's Swedish I think, Martenzon. She's one of the creators behind the creepy-ass robot recruiters that we talked about recently. This thing is a combination between the robots in I, Robot and the Barbie hair dresser bust that ... Yeah. So-
Joel: ... she took notice of the comments in a blog post that I put up. So she wants the robot to interview us sort of in person. I mean it sort of loses itself on audio because it's just a person ... So anyway, Ellen, Elin, fly us out to Sweden. We'd love that. And your robot can interview us and ask us whatever it would like.
Chad: Okay, yeah. So we're gonna be in Lisbon in May. Come to TAtech in Lisbon. We'll meet you more than halfway.
Joel: Bring Tengai.
Chad: Bring your creepy robot, and we will do this interview. I would love to do this interview. It was funny because in her post, she said, "Tengai Unbiased is very likable and sympathetic, not creepy at all," which I thought sound very Trump-ish, by the way.
Joel: Why would they name it Tengai Unbiased? Can't it be Heidi or Lisa or something? Tengai Unbiased? Good God.
Chad: Jeffrey? Yeah, Jeffrey.
Joel: Who's marketing that?
Chad: Jeffrey. Shout-out to Jamie Leonard of RecFest. It was funny as hell because he put a post out this week, and he said, "Consider me Santa because I've got a big belly, and I watch you when you sleep." And-
Joel: Speaking of creepy.
Chad: ... he went along. I think that's something that is part of his shtick, though. And he gave five things that you should do. And one of them was definitely listen to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. It's one of those things, he took his time, wrote this up. RecFest. He's a listener. So, Jamie, thanks for listening. And can't wait, hopefully to see you in RecFest this year.
Joel: Has Jamie ever been an extra on a Guy Ritchie film? Because talking to him, he certainly would fit the bill.
Chad: Dude, he would be perfect, yeah, for Snatch or ... Dude, that'd be fuckin' awesome. Yeah. Legit.
Joel: My final shout-out goes to [Carissa 00:08:16], is that right, at Tilr Carisa.
Joel: Co-founder and CEO. Tiller was on the firing squad recently. It's published. Kids, you love the firing squad. You're gonna love this one. Go check out the Tiller whatever we're calling it.
Chad: Firing squad, yeah.
Joel: Yeah, but I was trying to find a synonym for firing squad, like the-
Chad: Don't do that.
Joel: ... interrogation maybe. Yeah, let's call it....
Chad: I like that.
Joel: Go check out the interrogation of Tiller.
Chad: I've got two more. Emily Krueger loves a little Chad & Cheese. Thanks for listen, Emily. We love you. Make sure all your friends, family, and peers subscribe and listen as well.
Chad: Last but not least, Google's CEO, Sundar Pichai, for having the patience of Job this week. I've always had a rule personally myself when leading teams. That rule is never come to me with a question without researching it prior. This in many cases will help you actually answer your own goddamn question, or bring our discussion to a much smarter level, because there are so many fuckin' stupid questions that are out there. And make it more outcomes-focused, right?
Chad: So in the three-plus hours Google's CEO had to deal with the individuals of Congress, who I believe did no research whatsoever and looked fucking stupid, shout-out to him for having the patience and not telling Representative King that he's a dumbass for not knowing that Google doesn't produce a fucking iPhone.
Joel: And I'm gonna piggyback and shout-out to the dude in the audience who looked like the Monopoly guy.
Chad: That was awesome.
Joel: I don't know what that was about, but it was pretty damn funny.
Chad: Yeah. He's done it before. It's kind of like a shtick for him. The last one, this is last. Chad & Cheese Live. So as you're planning for 2019, if you're a company and you have a leadership getaway or a summit or something like that, bring in Chad & Cheese. We can do a show. We can do a lot of stuff. But what you can do is you can tap into our recruitment technology, recruitment process, recruitment experience. Bring us in, and we'll do something for you live.
Joel: And that is shout-outs. You've got a funny story.
Chad: Okay. So this is all about holding each other accountable, okay? So we love the guys over at AllyO, right? Okay, but Ankit over there-
Joel: Spank it.
Chad: ... actually posted ... Yeah, Ankit, who was on firing squad, by the way, got a big applause from both of us. So love the guys from AllyO. But I quote, this is what he actually posted out, "AllyO is the first AI recruiter to help your candidates over WhatsApp." That's a pretty big deal-
Chad: ... because WhatsApp is huge across the pond. I think there's over 200 million subscribers who use it in India alone. But I know better. So I sent the link to Max over at Talkpush for a response. And before you know it, Talkpush tweets out, and I quote, "All these companies talking about the first ones to use WhatsApp to talk to candidates, and we're over here like first ones," air quotes, "first ones," with a Dr. Evil GIF doing air quotes.
Joel: I was hoping he'd have a GIF of the old Bud Light commercial, like, "Wazzup!"
Chad: Yeah. So my message to the recruiting industry, and this is one of the things that Joel and I like to do. Let's call bullshit when it's bullshit, okay? And if you're gonna step out there and say you're the first in something, totally get it. But do your fuckin' research. Make sure that you are. And this is not, again, just focused on AllyO and this kind of faux pas. This is for everybody. Don't just go out there and say, "We're the first, we're the best," all this other happy horseshit. Actually come with the goods.
Chad: If not, Chad & Cheese is gonna call you out. And we're gonna push other motherfuckers to call you out.
Joel: And, by the way, Max has a set of boxing gloves. So I don't know if you want to be messing with that mad French guy. And, by the way, French are out of control, man. Chill out.
Chad: Yes, they're a little out of control. So first topic, Microsoft and Upwork, you thought this was dope.
Joel: I love this. Microsoft, man. Who knew that they'd be pulling out the punches in our industry? But two years ago, they bought LinkedIn. They bought GitHub this past year. And now, news comes out that they're partnering with Upwork, who we've discussed in length on this show, a freelancing platform to manage your freelancers. It will be built into some of the 365 stuff that Microsoft is putting out. Microsoft's company as a whole uses its service to manage its Upwork workforce to the tune of thousands of workers.
Joel: So to me, obviously it's a great move for Microsoft from a partnering standpoint. But for me, my little Spidey senses went off and said, "I spy a 2019 prediction that Microsoft will pull back the Brinks truck and add Upwork to the suite of services that already include LinkedIn and GitHub."
Chad: Yes. So remember the guy last week you talked about in the pod that hired a couple of people to do his project in AsiaPac or somewhere like that for a fraction of the cost?
Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chad: Well, I told you that shit was genius. And now, it's going corporate, right?
Chad: So this also plays into the conversation we had a couple of weeks ago about HR and TA being the main reason why we have talent gaps. Both HR and TA are doing business like we're in the fuckin' '50s. They need to, number one, build talent pipelines with training, certification, and degrees. Plus, they need to fill these gaps with these types of initiatives. If they're still looking at, "I can only do full-time individuals to be able to get this done," dude, they're gonna lose every fuckin' time.
Chad: So this is a shout-out to the HR and talent acquisition world. The way that you've been doing business for years has to adapt, period. If you don't, you're going to lose talent, and that means you're gonna lose fuckin' cash. And when the CEO comes knocking on your door, the COO, then you're gonna have a conversation.
Joel: And I totally appreciate that angle that you're taking. I just my angle I think if Microsoft were to do this, they would have the number-one business networking site in the world. They would have the number-one technology professional site in the world. And then they would have the number-one freelancing site in the world.
Joel: So imagine that as a platform. You go to LinkedIn, you post a job. Here are LinkedIn profiles, professionals that fit the job. Here are some contractors you might want to consider. I mean it's just you look at what they're building with this, and to me, it's just super frightening for anyone else that's competing with them because they're building quite the Death Star I guess, if you will, of recruiting.
Chad: Yeah, unless they fuck it up, right? That's what we've seen over the years is companies acquiring other companies, and either they throw them in the closet to never be seen again, or they just totally jack it up. So I like what they've done with LinkedIn, and LinkedIn is just continuing to work as LinkedIn, not as Microsoft over LinkedIn. If they can continue that kind of operating policy, I think they've got a chance. There's no question.
Joel: Yep. So if you're Google, Facebook, or anyone else, what are you thinking about this stuff? You thinking, "We better get them before LinkedIn does"?
Chad: Either that, or start taking a look at some of the other technologies, the other platforms that are out there and doing partnerships with them as well. I mean this is the road to acquisition, I mean being able to actually see if it fits within your ecosystem. Does it work? That's the way business is being done. It's kind of like, "Hey, let's do some pilots before we go and acquire your ass."
Chad: So, yeah, if I'm those organizations, if I'm a Facebook or a Google or what have you, that's exactly what I would be looking at doing.
Joel: Yep. And to me, Slack going public, assuming someone doesn't come in and buy them before they do that, similar to how Glassdoor was acquired before they went public, I think a big part of it is capital to be able to make moves like acquiring someone like an Upwork or some other software or workforce platform if they're gonna compete on a stage with Microsoft and Google. 2019's gonna be interesting. And we're going a prediction podcast here shortly with Tim Sackett, right?
Chad: Yeah. We'll be looking at our 2018 predictions and making fun of each other, and then doing 2019.
Joel: Nice. I need to go back and see what I said outside of Amazon buying Slack, which I think could still happen.
Joel: All right, moving on, speaking of contingent workforce and techies, HackerRANK sent out a survey this week that was fairly interesting. It was basically looking at university developers and how students learn to code and evaluate job opportunities. And I can tell you from the study that the times they are a-changing. Some of the findings here, I'll read you the subject lines and we can dig in a little further for what's interesting.
Chad: So, yeah. As we talk about these skills gaps, and we're just talking about HR and TA, not knowing what the fuck to do, college degrees aren't sufficient enough for coding proficiency. Because technology is moving so fast, curriculum can't keep up with it. So you need these different, whether it's YouTube or Udacity or what have you, you need these very flexible systems to be able to plug into to train your current workforce, not to mention as you're bringing in new individuals, you should already have these training programs in place. And those training programs could possibly come on contract.
Chad: So, "Hey, we're gonna spend X amount of money to train you up on Java because we sure the hell don't have enough Java developers coming out to be able to fill the gap that we have." So we want to train you into Java. But guess what, the beautiful thing is not only are we going to do this. You're gonna be on a contract for three years. And here's what your career path looks like."
Joel: So what blew me away was the YouTube presence. How mad are you if you're Udemy, Lynda, any of these platforms that are built on education, online stuff, videos, and kids are just going to YouTube to learn this stuff. That would frustrate the hell out of me.
Chad: Yeah. Why do you think that is, though?
Joel: Because it's where kids live. I mean how many times do we talk about the lifestyle site, right?
Joel: The reason people should be scared of Facebook is a billion and a half people are on it, most of them every day. Similar to YouTube. My kids have been watching YouTube since they've been watching other kids open toys-
Joel: ... since five years old or so. Minecraft videos, they're watching Twitch and seeing other kids play. So YouTube is just what they know. And ultimately they search like, "Hey, how to code," or, "Basics of coding," or, "How to HTML." It's just a natural place to go for them. They don't think about going to Google and searching for companies that provide HTML teaching. Maybe they do at some point, but the first place they go is YouTube. And I think that helps support that.
Chad: So YouTube is really the delivery system is what it is, right? The curriculum is out there, but YouTube in this case is the delivery system. It just makes it so much easier, and any company that's out there that's listening, take fucking notes right now. If you have curriculum that's somewhere else internal, external, doesn't matter, use pieces, parts of that, throw it on YouTube as like a teaser to start to get individuals focused on your brand because that's what they want to do, right?
Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). 53% of usage on mobile devices is social media. So if you're not on those platforms, you're losing, period.
Chad: Yeah. It drives Julie crazy because whenever I don't know how to do
something, she's a very text-driven person, I'm very visual, I will go to YouTube. And Julie goes ... She's reading something. I'm like, "Yeah, I already got it. Look, they're showing me how to do it right now."
Joel: Yeah. And how many wormholes have you fallen into doing that? No lie, the whole shapeshifter conspiracy stuff, one night I was for three hours falling into shapeshifter conspiracy theories. I won't go into it, but anyway. Tangent off course. Let's take a break and hear from JobAdX, and then we'll talk about Comparably's best companies and signing bonuses and stuff like that.
JobAdX: With JobAdX's first birthday almost here, we are proud of all we've accomplished with advertising clients, publisher job sites, recruitment marketing agencies, and staffing firms. Thank you for all the support and trust you have placed in us. Since 2017, JobAdX has used the best of consumer ad text bidding and ad delivery to build an incredible programmatic job advertising exchange, and continue to rapidly grow our network of partner sites. We've also launched a feed inventory management platform called Switchboard, effectively offering our dynamic technologies to all job board partners.
JobAdX: And we've developed our revolutionary Live Alert, which eliminate latency in expired job ads via email. No more dead clicks or overages from job links whether opened today, next month, or next year. For more information about our solutions, please reach us at JoinUs@JobAdX.com.
Joel: Boy, how was that for a tangent? Shapeshifters on YouTube. Whoo. I need a vacation, man. Christmas can't get here fast enough.
Chad: It is too easy. It's one of the reasons why I have to shut shit down on my computer when I'm doing any work because all the notifications just take me down rabbit holes. And you were talking a couple weeks ago about your internet brain. Well, that's what it is. So whenever I get a book nowadays, I get an actual physical book. I turn all my shit off, I put it in a drawer, do something like that. Then I pick the book up, and I go to the chair, and I read the book so that I don't have notifications taking me down rabbit holes and I don't get a chance to actually read.
Joel: You go to a chair?
Joel: I have this smoking jacket and pipe vision of you reading a book old style.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: No, that's good, man. I need to force myself to do that more often. My turn-off is bingeing on television with my wife, and sports.
Chad: Yeah. Netflix and chill time.
Joel: Netflix and chill. So I screwed this up. This was signing day, not signing bonuses. But this is your story, so you go.
Chad: Okay. So this is one of the coolest things I think. As we were talking about Upwork and Microsoft and then we were going into the college, now we're going into the high school ranks. And Henrico County Public Schools in Virginia, instead of just celebrating individuals or kids who are getting or signing for playing college football or getting into big schools or what have you, they are now doing [signee 00:25:39] days for kids who are getting into jobs.
Chad: And in this case, in some cases, you actually have companies who are there, like UPS or what have you, that are there for signing day. And here's a quote from one of the administrators at the school: "They've chosen," "they" being the kids, "they've chosen to maximize their high school opportunities for career training and industry certifications with an eye on becoming successful and financially secure much earlier in life," end quote.
Chad: How about there's a huge fucking need for all these types of talent, and they won't be strapping themselves with huge student debt? That's the big key here, right? We have all these jobs that are open where you do need to have specific types of skills, and companies need to be able to obviously pipeline those candidates right into their organization. And why the hell not celebrate it? A kid's going to college. That's awesome, man. Yeah, you definitely should celebrate that. But you also have a kid who worked hard on this certification, and they're not going to college. They're going directly into these different jobs, where there will be learning and more certifications to come.
Chad: That's something that should be celebrated, too. And I thought that was pretty fucking cool, and got a ton of frickin' love and views on LinkedIn just from the story.
Joel: You know the curmudgeon in me wants to hate on this story and say, "Why are we celebrating not going to college? Why are we ..." I think it just sends a bad message. But I can't hate on the story because it's capitalism at work, and at the heart of me, I'm a capitalist. And companies have a need. These kids in high school can fill that need. If they want to celebrate it with an athletic style signing day where the kids are wearing hats of the company ... It really is like, "What college are you going to?" It's like, "What company are these kids going to?"
Joel: And it creates a definitely ... The environment that must create in school for your peers in school to see you sign with UPS or SAP or whatever the companies are, that's gotta be really cool for those kids. I do have some transgression to say, "What are the long-term ramifications gonna be of this?" because I'd hate to see a kid that's real proficient in whatever does the job for five, 10 years, gets married, has kids, gets other kinds of debt, and then the technology that he's been doing becomes passe or irrelevant. Is he gonna be able to adapt to new skills? I hope so.
Joel: But I do think one of the things college helps you learn is how to learn and how to adapt and evolve to different changes in life and business. So I don't want to hate on this, but I am semi-concerned about the long-term effects of grabbing kids out of school, throwing them into coal mines back in the day. Is this that much different? If the coal mines close, do they have any other skills to get a new job? And I guess I do have some question about how that will play out in the future.
Joel: But otherwise, I think it's great.
Chad: You are a curmudgeon. First and foremost, the technology in coal mines and trying to assimilate that to some of the jobs that they're going into, some of them if they're manufacturing style jobs, yes, they will definitely, they will have to learn new technology, get new certifications. I mean everything is moving at a much different scale and pace than it was when we were kids or in the '60s or what have you even before us, right? So this is an entirely different world.
Chad: So to be able to see the blue collar, per se, as a blue collar of yesteryear is so far out of bounds. Technology's moving so fast, and for those individuals who want to stay and they want to learn and they want to progress in their career, they will have to get different certifications. So I don't see this as a bad thing. One of the things that I see as bad is in our society, we've taught our kids that college and strapping yourself with a lot of debt is the only way. And that's total bullshit.
Chad: There are other ways to live a great life, still be educated, and be certified in something. So for me, this is a great way for somebody who really wants to do something different with their life to be able to do that.
Joel: Yeah. I don't disagree. But I also don't think that to say that it's that far off from back in the day kids leaving for the steel mills or the coal mines or working for a car company out of college are that different. I mean steel left. Cars are made elsewhere. Coal mines shut down. And these people had to learn new skills. And I don't think it's that far saying that if whatever these kids are doing, if times change and we don't do that, it they can't adapt, they're gonna be screwed. Just like the people that left high school for Ford or GM, if they didn't have additional skills or could learn them, they were screwed and the government got saddled with, "Let's teach these folks new skills to get them new jobs."
Joel: I just don't think it's that different a risk that we took with blue collar jobs back in the day. But time will tell.
Chad: Yeah. And I totally disagree. Being in a town that has manufacturing for diesel engines, and now electric engines, it's an entirely different day today. Manufacturing is so far different than it was in the '60s, especially the talent. And how they have to continue to learn in those jobs and talking to those companies in the talent acquisition side of the house, that's one of the reasons why I believe this makes a hell of a lot of good sense.
Chad: Now, if we were still in the same day and age where it's like, yeah, you're gonna sit on that line and that's all you're gonna do the rest of your life, which is generally what our grandfathers did, it's not that day anymore. It's not even close.
Joel: Well, let's at least agree that if you cannot adapt, you're screwed.
Chad: Too easy, which is one of the reasons why HR and talent acquisition is having so many fucking issues right now is because they haven't been able to adapt since the 19-fuckin'-50s.
Joel: Right. So I'm saying is these are kids. They learn a skill. And they go work on that skill. I just hope that they have the wherewithal to adapt when those skills become irrelevant or something becomes more in demand than what they've already learned. That's all I'm saying.
Chad: Yeah. And that's gonna be up to the company to be able to ensure that they're skilling them up, right? You take a look at AT&T, a great example. AT&T you might be a guy who's working on the line or who knows. But they have programs internally in place to keep those certifications up to date and moving forward. So the day of you being only personal responsible for these things is over. The company is pushing to have that happen because you become outdated if you're not certified.
Chad: So what you're talking about, yeah, that would be a problem. That's not an issue for most of these companies who understand that they have to keep their workforce skilled up.
Joel: Yeah. And economies go bad, and tariffs happen, and companies lay people off. I mean-