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Disability Solutions

Every Job Board Must Get Stoned

The end of January is supposed to be boring. Nay, say Chad & Cheese.

The boys dig into:

- Listeners are lining up to punch Joel in the throat

- We don't need no stinkin' surveys - only the data ma'am

- Chad finally sees Indeed's assault on staffing agencies

- Amazon employs robots in their war on Walmart

- Vangst receives $10m further embraces weed's legality

- Ghost proof interviews with Canvas, Mya and messaging

Just throat punch Joel on your way to spending bucket loads of money with Chad & Cheese our sponsors Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas.


Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community.

Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast.

Joel: I got your polar vortex right here, mother nature. Welcome to The Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.

Joel: On this week's show, we pull some anti-ghosting magic out of our hat, we learn why Indeed gave the AA staffing industry a big FU, and we get a little contact high from the growing pot jobs industry. Smoke up Johnny. We'll be right back after a word from Sovern.

Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each, individual transaction. They will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit That's

Chad: Hopefully be seeing those guys sometime soon, right?

Joel: Yeah, we're headed to Austin. We'll see if they got any more vodka or bourbon from HR Tech still around.

Chad: Bourbon.

Joel: We were taking some of that. Yeah, I think it was bourbon. It was bourbon.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Well, dude, happy Super Bowl weekend.

Chad: No shit, right? It's here.

Joel: Yeah, I tried to do a little, a New York accent at the beginning, but it sounded a little bit more New England maybe because there's been so many Bostonians on TV lately.

Chad: Bastards.

Joel: They're gonna win, though.

Chad: I don't know that, yeah.

Joel: Quick prediction? I'm gonna go New England 35, LA 31.

Chad: I'm gonna go LA 28, New England 14.

Joel: Okay.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Only 14 points.

Chad: Yeah, LA had one hell of a defense this year, and I think they're gonna lock it down, and they can. If they can lock down those receivers, not to mention they have a hell of a pass rush.

Joel: Well, for the sake of the viewing audience, I hope it's not just 28-14. I hope it's a little more high scoring than that.

Chad: It can still be a good game.

Joel: Oh, sure. But these aren't massive defenses. If New England's not scoring much, it's because they're sucking. It's not because they're playing the 2000 Ravens or the 75 Steelers.

Chad: The Rams had a good defense this year. They had a very good defense this year. Take a look at their line, what is it, Donaldson? Take a look at their backs, man.

Joel: And Suh. A boy called Suh.

Chad: Those guys, they're legit. I'm waiting for the AFC to finally fucking put together some teams in the late season who don't just fucking fold like cheap card tables.

Joel: Well, thank god we have the Browns then, who are destined for Super Bowl greatness.

Chad: Once again.

Joel: Interestingly, I haven't heard a lot about the commercials this year.

Chad: I know it's gonna be incredibly expensive to get a fucking, it always is, but it goes up every year. So we'll see. We'll see who actually has the cash to play in this game.

Joel: We'll see, and we'll probably discuss it on next week's show.

Chad: More than likely.

Joel: Now, for the non-sports fans, they'll be happy to know that we're gonna tighten up our shout outs a little bit, so we're limiting it to people, exceptional people, not just anyone, events, and maybe like really special items for the show. Okay, so we're tightening up. I'm gonna start with Adam Gordon, or, whichever one. Go check him out. The crazy Scotchman, Scotsman, that we love so much did a Braveheart inspired death match video taunting us. I shoot fire out of my ass or lightening out of my ass, and you shoot fire out of your eyes or something.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: But it was very well done. Love Adam, can't wait to see him in Lisbon on the death match stage.

Chad: Yes, and I have to say that TNG and the 10 guy creepy ass robot is the one who actually started this, so their video acceptance pushed Adam. But yeah, you can check it out. You can go to, click on podcasts and video or death match, whatever, and they're gonna be right there. Check them out. They're funny as hell.

Joel: They must not have as much of a litigious society there in Scotland, because I would be scared to death to do a parody of Braveheart by risk of getting sued by everyone in Hollywood. But hey Adam, good for you man. Stick it to the movie studios.

Chad: I would've thought you would've started out with the Joel throat punch.

Joel: I don't know, to me that feels like the fourth hitter. That seems like the clean up to me, but yeah, if you want to bring that up, go ahead.

Chad: Yeah, so you had a post on LinkedIn that kind of, I would say, exploded to an effect. You posted, "If you ever hear me say," and I quote, "I need to story this," end quote, "Permission to punch me in the throat." So apparently, people don't have a problem, and as a matter of fact, they're kind of overjoyed at the thought of punching you in the throat.

Joel: Yeah, there's a number machine in the corner of my office here, if you want to take a number. Apparently, there's a lot of energy around punching me in the throat. Now, I will say that the odds of me saying, in public, "I need to story this," or "I want to story this," is pretty low, and it was driven by either millennial or a Gen Z are saying it. Similar to like, "I need to tweet this," or "I'm gonna Facebook this." So this is the whole story phenomenon of stories on Snapchat and Instagram. "I need to story this." So I hope to god I never say it. If I do, carte blanche to punch me in the throat.

Chad: Just so that you know, we do have this already set up as an event. It's gonna be a sponsored event by JobAdX. We already have t-shirts being designed, throat punch Joel t-shirts, those types of things. So when it does happen because it'll happen, we will have an event pulled together to make sure that everybody can enjoy the Joel throat punching.

Joel: Multiple video sponsors have lined up to video record this and push it out there. Now, to underscore the idiocy of mankind, my throat punch post has received almost 15,000 views from the comments, and people talk a lot about, why don't you write or talk about more thoughtful, intellectual pieces? The point is, we give the people what they want, and apparently, they want throat punches and Braveheart videos and everything else. So if you don't like our content, blame it on humanity, because we're just giving the people what they want.

Chad: That's right. Ed from Philly, he loves what we're saying, because he really liked the Weekend at Bernie's comment about Wilbur Ross].

Joel: That was pretty good.

Chad: Ang over at JobElephant's officially sent us a strongly worded letter and took exception to your job site farming comment, because JobElephant's obviously is their product. He took exception to that.

Joel: Yeah, so those that didn't listen, Textkernel being acquired by CareerBuilder, I think Textkernel's an awful name.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: It reminds me of farming and corn kernels, and the whole animal thing is played. So JobElephant, what I got for you is ... a big elephant gun.

Chad: Oh, god. Killing it. Okay, so Toby Culshaw-

Joel: Loves us.

Chad: Well, and he's created a TA podcast list for TA professionals, so if you're out there, you're a TA professional, maybe you're a vendor in this space and you want to listen to a top notch podcast, obviously you're already listening to one. He's actually created a list for this, so check it out. It's on LinkedIn, Toby Culshaw, C-U-L shaw, and there you go.

Joel: I don't think they were numbered, but we're clearly number one if he had numbered that list, I think. Canada, here we come, eh?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: The event's February 19 through the 22-ish.

Chad: It's gonna be awesome.

Joel: We're gonna be in Banff near Calgary, Canada. More CEOs than we can shake a stick at, more thought leaders. I'm not sure how they let us into the event, but sure enough, we're gonna be there and aspire to interview a lot of people and get a lot of content for everybody.

Chad: So this is a cult branding event, names like Yeti, LA Lakers, Marvel Comics, Cheetos-

Joel: Cinnabon.

Chad: Yeah, Cinnabon.

Joel: Cinnabon, Cheetos, yeah.

Chad: Converse, M&Ms, Porsche-

Joel: Miller.

Chad: I mean, dude.

Joel: Budweiser.

Chad: This is like the brand event of the year, so we're pretty fucking stoked, not to mention after that, there is a concert event, which I'm going to go to as well. So it should be


Joel: It feels like Davos meets South By Southwest for Canada, is basically what we're going to.

Chad: They let us meatheads in.

Joel: Yep.

Chad: Soon, you will be able to check out the new Chad Cheese first limited edition Chad Cheese t-shirt-

Joel: Original.

Chad: Original design.

Joel: Exclusive.

Chad: Exclusive, what else do we want to put on it?

Joel: Earth shattering, orgasmic-

Chad: We're gonna have three or four different designs you can vote on. This is all sponsored by our friends at They are going to be promoting, they're the sponsor of this first, limited edition Chad and Cheese shirt, which we're going to be giving away at events this year.

Joel: We're excited.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: You're excited. This is your baby, man. You've been talking about a t-shirt sponsorship for a long time, and I have poo pooed it since you started, so I'm giving you full credit. If this thing takes off, Chad is the guy behind it.

Chad: First and foremost, you get throat punched for saying "poo pooed", and second, it's gonna take off. People love fucking t-shirts and Chad and Cheese t-shirt. Give me a break. Come on.

Joel: Especially when they're limited and orgasmic.

Chad: Oh yeah.

Joel: People love those kinds of t-shirts.

Chad: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Joel: Holy shit. Are we done with shout outs?

Chad: One more, Mark Feffer is providing us with sound effects. I'm working with Mark on another project. I thought, fuck it. I'm gonna pull in some of these sound effects for Chad & Cheese too. He'll love it, so go ahead and play one.

Feffer: Asshole.

Joel: Did we get a signature to do this? Are we gonna have to pay him every time we use "asshole" on the show?

Chad: No, don't even put that out there in the universe for god's sakes. Now we're gonna have to think about it. I'm working with him. He writes all the content for, and we're doing some podcasting roundups and whatnot. We're trying to liven some of the stuff up, so I thought you'd just kinda cross-pollinate some of the stuff that we're using over there and it'd be fun.

Feffer: Asshole. Asshole. Asshole.

Joel: Now everybody's gonna want sound bites on the show, nice.

Chad: Yeah, well, and that is awesome. We should do that. Where's my Ed from Philly fucking sound bite?

Joel: Yeah, you gotta have some Philly. What would Ed say?

Chad: I don't know. We need a sound bite.

Joel: All right. All right, Ed. Through the guns. All right, George Larocque is starting off the show. Dude did a poll. He has is his blog. Larocque, L-A-R-O-C-Q-U-E

Chad: Larocque, yeah.

Joel: I'm guessing that's French. Larocque.

Chad: Le ROCK.

Joel: Something. So the title is Everything on the Internet Starts with Google. Sure, but what about online job search? They say no. You have a few comments about the results. I have a little bit of a commentary about the sample size, but essentially, it's a big hand stroke to Indeed, which lands number one. Although I'm a little, I'm confused, because the headline is basically like, Google sucks, but Google is number two in terms of search site used. Where does this job search start? Google's number two, and they're like five or six points behind Indeed, and then you go down to LinkedIn, Monster, ZipRecruiter, Glassdoor, et cetera.

Joel: So what are your thoughts about the results? I don't think this is a huge blow to Google, but the headline would say otherwise.

Chad: Yeah, I take issue mainly in the methodology. So it was a survey. I think it's cute when you're asking dumb humans where they start anything, because they can't fucking remember. Seriously. It doesn't look like the survey is any better, has any better information than the ATS drop down question. Where did you find this job, right?

Joel: Yeah, and there are a certain number of people, and let's agree that Indeed still has some nice search rankings on a lot of things. People are still going to Google and then going to Indeed and then finding the job from there or applying through that. So you really get into some confusing issues of, do they really remember, or what exactly is the process by which they're telling you what they're going for?

Joel: This is why analytics exist, right? So you put a piece of code on websites, and you don't leave it up to human beings. You leave it up to what actually happens, which obviously wasn't what this survey gauged as far as I know. In fact, my big problem with it is that they surveyed a whopping, in the job search area, 540 individuals. If this was 540 employers, I'd say, home run. That's a great sample size, because it's hard to get employers to answer anything. But dude, 540 job seekers is not a ton of people.

Joel: I think the rule of thumb, and I'm not a survey expert, but I think the rule of thumb is you look at the potential universe, and then getting as close to 10% of that as possible. So at 10%, 500 would be 5,000.

Chad: Not even close.

Joel: So a lot more than 5,000 job seekers in the country, so I would've loved to have seen a lot larger sample size. George could've partnered with any job board of significance on the planet and emailed a number of their people, or he could've just put an ad on Facebook and target people. There are probably different ways that he could get a lot of people to answer this question, but 540 is a fairly small sample size. I wouldn't put the gospel around what the results were.

Chad: I don't want fucking human beings answering anything.

Joel: Well, that's never gonna happen.

Chad: We have data. We have fucking data, okay? So it's funny, because this kind of string blew up on social, and there were a few people that were saying, "Oh, that's a fine sample size," and I thought, you know what? It's pretty fucking simple. You can aggregate, many of the people who are in this conversation can actually aggregate the data from their clients, and they can come out with a real number, right? Because this, I don't think is a real number. It's a human survey. Who gives a fuck, right? Give me data. This is not data. This is the problem that I see within our industry today. We are focused too much on noise instead of the actual fucking data, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this.

Chad: This survey, quit doing fucking surveys like this. Stop it. Give me fucking data. Don't do stupid surveys when you can get data that will actually give us concrete information.

Joel: So I guess you don't have a SurveyMonkey subscription then, right?

Chad: So for SurveyMonkey, I mean, SurveyMonkey can be used for many different things, right? You can ask, but not this. You should be able to find data that supports this.

Joel: So for the record, if a company wants to survey the employees about where they want to go for dinner on Christmas or the holidays, you're okay with that.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Just not big, kind of topic stuff. Or if you want to survey someone about their interview or their exits, that's okay. You're not totally anti-survey.

Chad: No.

Joel: Just with stuff like this, you want just hard data.

Chad: If there is hard data, right? Unless you're polling all of the Yelp information from all your employees or Google reviews for restaurants and whatnot. If you have that data, fucking A. Big brother, have at it, plan your party. In most cases, you don't. In this case, you can get the fucking data. If you don't have the data, then guess what? Don't fucking talk about it.

Joel: Because we're getting ready to survey our listeners for their favorite t-shirt, so I just want to make sure that when we do that, they can't come back and say, "We did the survey and you guys hate surveys." Some surveys are okay, just for the record.

Chad: Can we actually pull data together that will tell us which t-shirt our listeners like before we actually put those out there? No, we don't. If we had it, we wouldn't be asking the fucking humans, right? But we don't, so we're gonna poll them.

Joel: Fair enough, man. We like George. Let's put that out there.

Chad: Love George.

Joel: Love George. We've interviewed him. Hopefully he'll come back on the show at some point.

Chad: He will.

Joel: Maybe we'll talk about this survey and he can tell us how we're full of shit and how it's an awesome data set.

Chad: Well, there's a couple of things. We could ask him onto the show and we could talk about this. We could also ask the Shane Grays of the world who have companies like Clinch who actually aggregate this data, so it wouldn't just be like a certain client, and could prospectively give us data points on what they're seeing through a litany of different companies, right? That, to me, is a better conversation.

Joel: Yeah, and we're interviewing ICIMS about a whole bunch of data here this month, I believe, and maybe we'll talk about what sources are driving the most traffic to their customers. I think that's a much better data point than asking people.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: I agree. I agree. All right, man, let's move on to Indeed, and you found this story. What's up?

Chad: No, actually, one of our listeners hit me up on LinkedIn messenger and really said, "Hey, have you seen a big movement with Indeed hire?" I was like, "No, why?" He's like, "Man, they're calling us left and right." So they're seeing more of a sales push, not to mention he gave me a link to the website which has a video that focuses obviously on the product. It just seems like it's more polished than I've ever seen it before, and that's where I thought it was interesting and it would bring up the interesting discussion around, as you had said before, that you really believe that Indeed is going after the staffing industry and this in itself could be evidence.

Joel: Which, I wish we had a sound guy in a booth, but we're just two idiots at desks. I'm pretty sure there's a sound bite somewhere where you think, I'm full of shit thinking that Indeed is getting into staffing. They're getting into staffing.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: The video, Google, Indeed Hire. Google Hire. Indeed Hire, they screwed the staffing industry a few weeks ago, kicked them off the site unless they're paying. This is why. They're getting into staffing, and they're getting serious because these videos, the site, it's just very well made. This is where they're going. They're gonna compete with staffing companies for sure.

Chad: What I said was, I don't see them going against the Adeccos or the Randstads of the world. They were already in staffing. Do I think that they're going to be a behemoth and, no, I don't. Are they gonna try? Fuck, they just might. I think this is interesting though because back in the day for Monster and CareerBuilder, dude, they were taking their bucks as they were killing them, right? They were taking their dollars. They were sending them traffic as they were slowly bleeding them and killing them, but they just kicked staffing off. We've talked about it before. Some staffing companies are actually spending more money because of that, so-

Feffer: Asshole.

Chad: Maybe this is part of the grand plan. We're going to get more money out of staffing, and this is how we're going to bleed staffing by kicking them off, because they're already hooked on the crack, and then guess what? We're gonna take their business from them.

Joel: I'm clapping because yes, you have encapsulated the whole strategy, and it's a repeat from what they did to job boards. Kick them off, get them to pay, and then slowly bleed them with their own product. Boom, rinse and repeat.

Chad: It's worked before. The thing is, I don't know that it'll work on the big ones that are out there, right? The ones who have enormous databases as it is.

Joel: To me, it's clearly sold as a, if you don't have the infrastructure currently to place people or find people, we will do that for you. But yes, the large enterprise, folks, I don't know. But this is a clear strike against the staffing industry.

Chad: How do you think this is going to impact Europe? Because they're so, I mean, obviously the staffing companies in Europe, that's a part of a company's DNA.

Joel: Sure. Well, we've been wondering the buildup in Ireland, the buildup in the UK, whether that's with real estate or people. Maybe this is a big part of it. Let's really take on staffing in a big way, and Europe could be ripe for that.

Chad: Could be. Could be, could be. Look out Europe, here comes Indeed.

Joel: Look out, yeah. If you've used the Indeed Hire product, like it, love it, hate it, whatever, hit us up at We'd love to hear your take on the product.

Chad: You know it.

Joel: And speaking of products that we know are awesome, let's hear from

JobAdX. This is their new ad.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: I feel like a DJ or a VJ announcing the new Thriller video. Here's the new one from JobAdX, boys and girls.

JobAdX: This is sound of job search. ... This is the sound of job search defeat. ... Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads, page after page before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low. Budgets are wasted. Jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most target jobs and delivers what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network.

JobAdX: Score! That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results attracting a qualified candidates and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at ... Join us at JobAdX. Together, we can save job search.

Chad: Save it.

Joel: I'm in a really good mood after that background soundtrack. I feel like it's from the Brady Bunch or some sort of 70s or 80s sitcom. I like it. I like it.

Chad: They were happy the entire time. Yes, I love it.

Joel: Yeah. Much improved, JobAdX. Way to go. Shout out to Isabelle, who we know is sort of doing the marketing there now.

Chad: Nice. Nice.

Joel: At the company. So a topic we never discuss, automation. There's a ton of stuff out there. What do you want to start with?

Chad: Let's start with the Brookings Institute report.

Joel: Okay.

Chad: Talking about the jobs that are going to go away. Where they're at, all that other happy horseshit, and it's pretty simple that many of these jobs, like food prep, production operations like manufacturing, office administration support, farming. This kind of blew my mind. Farming, fishing, and forestry, transportation, construction, and extraction. Those were all above 50%, so they had this index. Food prep was like 81%, so as you go into your McDonald's today and you start to see these boards that you're doing kind of these touch boards where you're ordering your food now, and then you just go to the front and the food's waiting for you there. That's kind of like another step on the food prep piece.

Chad: Then we also saw, god, it was a robot called Flippy. It was in California, right? And it would flip the burgers. It would get the burgers right, put it on the bun, have a full burger done for you the way that you ordered it, and a person didn't touch it until they delivered it.

Joel: What I find interesting was sort of demographically where, the types of folks that are gonna be impacted the most, and the Brookings Institute study really targeted men, young folks, and minorities for a variety of reasons. I also found it interesting that the rust belt would be particularly harder hit, because a lot of the jobs are boring, repetitive stuff, right? It's-

Chad: Production.

Joel: Yeah, so it's no mistake that our politics, in large part, are being driven by fear, and there's a ton of fear employment wise. Am I gonna have a job? Particularly in the Midwest and the rust belt where folks are getting displaced by robots, and there's a real fear there of what's going on. What I'm finding is we did the Walmart story last week about Walmart needing drivers. So I kind of went a little bit of maybe we're getting too ahead of ourselves with the whole automation thing, and then this week sort of slapped me in the face, saying like no. We're actually not.

Joel: Amazon employs over 100,000 robots in its warehouses, and they employ 125,000 humans. So that gives you an idea of it's almost 50/50 at some place like Amazon. We'll talk about self-driving cars, et cetera. So for me, it's like a lot of this isn't 20, 30, 50, 100 years in the future. This is sooner than maybe we think, and Brookings talked about the automation of by 2040, food preparation, 91% automatable. That's a huge segment of the workforce that 20 years isn't that far away, is gonna be gone, basically. There'll be a manager per store, and that's it. It's all automated at restaurants.

Chad: What got me was healthcare support was at 40%. Healthcare practitioners was at 33, and we're starting to see where AI is detecting cancer. Robots can do surgery more efficiently. So there's a lot of this, even in these very difficult types of jobs, being a practitioner, a healthcare practitioner, is pretty amazing, but yeah. You talk about the Walmart piece, and we were talking about Walmart is sucking the air out of the trucking industry, because they're pretty much close to doubling the salary that their truckers to like $90,000, so therefore they're driving retention, not to mention they're sucking the air out of the market by pulling all those

drivers in. What can Amazon do? I mean, what can they do?

Chad: So we also shared a report about Embark, self-driving trucks delivering a payload from LA to Jacksonville last year, and now Embark, go figure, is partnered up with Amazon.

Joel: Shocking.

Chad: Yeah. But those gaps, dude. It's all about the gaps. So Amazon says yeah, I have to automate. I have to. I can't do business because I don't have people. I don't have people. When the market flips and there are more people than there are jobs, it's too fucking late, guys. Robots are already in.

Joel: Yeah, the efficiency, the cost savings is already in the recipe. It's over.

Chad: No sick days.

Joel: Yeah, and again, this was another slap in my face to be like, wow. Yeah, I forgot about, was it Budweiser who had a truck load of beer delivered across the country? And then the Amazon thing. We talked a little bit about the little Amazon drones that could be rolling around the sidewalks in a neighborhood near you soon. This stuff is happening, and we report on it.

Joel: I also think, to go back to the original, the demographics of it. Young people, you and I both have young kids. Yours are older than mine, but that first job that you get that builds pride and responsibility and all that, and the story on the Brookings Institute talked about half of employment opportunities for 18-24 year olds will be gone within ten years, or will be automated. So imagine all the young people that aren't getting that first foot in the door because of automation. We talk a lot about the old folks that are doing the old manufacturing jobs, but it's young people that are gonna be highly impacted by automation. That's something to worry about as well.

Chad: Yes. But again, you take a look at all the gaps that we're experiencing right now, people, and this is one of the things that I think Peter [Weddle 00:29:24] outlined very well on circuit 2118 is that there's opportunity there to get rid of the human friction, and the opportunity happens when there aren't enough humans to go around, which is right now. You can fill those positions with efficiencies and robots and those jobs won't come back.

Chad: So we're talking about jobs going to Mexico and that kind of shit. That's nothing guys, those jobs, ah, in some cases, might come back. The ones that go to the robots, that shit's not coming back.

Joel: Amen. So Entelo, let's talk about automation recruiting. This was some interesting data. They had a survey come out. What piqued your interest on that from an automation standpoint?

Chad: I thought it was funny, because the very first point was 60% of recruiters say finding the right candidate is their top challenge, and 40% say that it's engaging candidates. But then it goes on to say that 37% of recruiters rank email as the preferred outreach mechanism.

Joel: Did you say email?

Chad: Email.

Joel: But you know, it's true. That number did not surprise you.

Chad: No, it didn't surprise me because we've got all these old timey fucking recruiters that are out there that aren't, they're not up with texting, with messaging, with actually quick and easy ways to first and foremost, identify candidates. So if you're going to LinkedIn today, and you're trying to source candidates just manually through LinkedIn? Dude, fuck. There are platforms that can do that in seconds, and then you can turn around and start messaging. We've even see, and I'm talking to the guys at Cielo about what they're doing to increase efficiencies for all of their clients and RPO, and it's all around automation.

Joel: Isn't it funny how, we talk about email or messaging for a second, the survey as you mentioned, 39% email, 33% phone and text, LinkedIn InMails 13%. That's, LinkedIn was really small. That kind of surprised me, and I don't know exactly what kind of recruiters they were talking to. But if only 13% are using InMails, that doesn't bode well for LinkedIn. So to me, putting in phone with text should totally be separate. If it was phone, I much rather would like to know what phone is versus text than putting those two together. So in next year's survey, let's make sure, Entelo, that we separate phone and text because I think those are very different, and I would also put chat with text as well.

Chad: Yeah, yeah. Then taking that next step, 47, almost 50% of recruiters don't

track open rates. Over 50% don't track click through rates. So they don't even know how all of this shit is performing. They could have the worst emails in the world, 39% of them, right? Could have the worst emails in the world, and they don't even know how they're performing. They don't know. And again, this is one of the reasons why we have automation and platforms out there, is one of the reasons why obviously Entelo created this automation trends report. But yeah, it's like, guys, get with the fucking times and start looking at the way that you're engaging candidates before you throw them into the fucking black hole.

Joel: Yep. Also, I think it underscores the role that drip campaigns may have in the future, because if it's this sort of these one and done emails, you're just scratching the surface of what you could get. All is not lost, now. 75% say technology will play a larger role in their hiring processes next year, this year. 22% planned to increase their spend on AI powered recruiting software. So it's not all lost. There are some innovators, some first movers in this group, so hopefully the next year's survey will reflect that.

Joel: Now, I will also underscore from our first story the Entelo survey, 625 talent acquisition professionals, which is more than Larocque surveyed from job seeker data. So good on Entelo for getting a good data set versus Larocque's job seekers, which was even less than what Entelo was able to get for responses for a recruitment survey.

Chad: Give me some applause. I'm going to my last point is also 75% of recruiters lack confidence in their ability to leverage AI tools to recruit.

Joel: Which is why more and more marketers will need to be recruiters.

Chad: Talking to the vendors that are out there, right? So vendors, listen up. The easier you make it for recruiters to actually not even have to use your platform. It just works, making it less human friction will increase adoption.

Joel: We're both still waiting for that voice assistant where you say, "Get me a Ruby on Rails developer with 5+ years experience in Seattle. Go." And it just does it, and your schedule gets filled with interviews. Well, this is a fantastic segue to our next sponsor, Canvas. Let's hear from them and their automated service and text messaging. Then we're gonna talk about anti-ghosting magic. Be right back, kids.

Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvasbot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's Get ready to text at the speed of talent.

Joel: You've seen the movie Tropic Thunder, haven't you?

Chad: Oh god, yes.

Joel: So the final scene, like in the credits where Tom Cruise is dancing.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: I always see that when I hear the Canvas music for some reason. Du du du du du.

Chad: G5 player.

Joel: I'm the dude playing the dude. Oh man.

Chad: So this wasn't planned, but we actually are going to start to talk a little bit about Canvas and ghosting when it comes to employees, right? And candidates.

Joel: So I wrote my first story about Mia or Mya. I don't know what we're calling it today, but Mya, sort of the first chatbot that got any kind of decent play. This was in 2016, so they sent out a little PR saying hey, here's some data. Here's what's new with us, et cetera. So I thought three years into this, what's the data showing? What's going on?

Joel: The chatbot phenomenon is going strong, and granted, I talked to people who are actually selling this product, so take that with a grain of salt. But the metrics around it are really favorable in terms of reply rate are 90%+, engagement rates are very high, particularly in comparison to email and telephone. Time to hire is being decreased significantly for a lot of these companies that are using chatbots and automation in that standpoint. Interestingly, what I thought, and this was great. Aman Brar, who's the CEO and founder over at Canvas, he's always good for a sound bite. His was messaging or chatbots are, quote, "anti-ghosting magic."

Joel: So we talk a lot about ghosting on this show, about millennials and anyone just sort of disappearing from the interview process or even not showing up at work or just leaving after a couple hours. For whatever reason, if you have a ghosting problem, getting on the chatbot train will remedy a lot of that because for whatever reason if people are chatting on an ongoing basis, there's less likelihood of just ghosting you in the recruiting process.

Chad: Yes. We did a podcast with Adam Godson from Cielo, one of our badass podcasts, and I think he actually, he was talking about, it might have been an off conversation that we had as well. But Cielo, I know, has automation put in place, much like the Canvas automation that you're talking about, and they have seen dramatic dips in ghosting, because the system actually texts out to the candidates. That kind of ties the candidate in. It was like, are you going to be there today at whatever?

Chad: So it's that, first, it's that reminder, because not everybody goes by a calendar, but it's that reminder. And it's that email, or that message that goes out to them making them feel like they're not in a black hole, and it could be just a system, just a process that's actually firing, not an actual human being. But that's not what the person cares about. They just know that you're reaching out to them to remind them that today at 1:00 or what have you, you have an interview. We're looking forward to seeing you or something like that. That means something to a candidate.

Joel: And interestingly, so two vendors actually talked about ghosting. Aman talked about it as well as Aaron Matos, our friend at Olivia. His quote was, "Hiring managers and teleprofessionals waste hours of time each week with candidates who ghost or no show to interviews. Thanks to assistance automating both the scheduling and the follow up for interviews, we have clients reporting interview attendance at 98%." A couple of the Mya highlights as well, they talked about 90% of contacts having conversations compared with claims of the industry talking about 37% connect only when relying on human recruiters.

Joel: Each completed Mya conversation saved a recruiter 20 minutes and triple the number of candidates that move through the process from application to securing interest of hiring and qualified candidates were scheduled for an interview within 72 hours of submitting their application, which was a 79% reduction in typical time that applications usually turn into interviews.

Chad: Adam over at Candidate.ID, who's gonna be in a death match in Lisbon, he's always talking about nurturing candidates, right? And nurturing them with content that's relevant in many cases, but also sending out those little pings, right? Just those little things just to touch base. That means so much to a candidate, and that's what the system is doing that human beings are not.

Chad: Real quick, I want to put in a plug for our DEMOpocalypse with Talkpush, because these guys are ... obviously big in the chatbot space, chatbot layered with CRM. So just go to the site. You can click on podcasts and then videos and look for the DEMOpocalypse. But check it out, man. I mean, this is all about process and being able to be more efficient and ensuring that you are nurturing those applicants, those candidates, and even those employees with these different platforms. It's really, really fucking cool.

Joel: Yeah. I think this really will be the year that if you're not at least testing out chatbots, you're really gonna be behind on the eight ball, because there are so many vendors, so many companies that are providing this. If you're not using it, you're screwing yourself, because the numbers are pointing to a lot better experience for everybody when chatbots and automation are being used.

Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chatbots, texting, I mean, just look at everything and blow up your process and focus on efficiencies, because these platforms are made for that.

Joel: Which, by the way, a little side note from the sports fans here on the podcast. Nick Saban, as anyone in, at least in the US will know, is the head coach of the Alabama Crimson Tide. There was a story on Deadspin this week about one of his coaches actually just leaving and becoming head coach at some other university. So even Nick Saban is dealing with being ghosted.

Chad: I can't believe that. So I guarantee you, Nick forgot several conversations. Dude came to him and said, "Hey look. This is what I'm looking at." I can't believe a dude just cleaned out his office and fucking left without telling Nick Saban. I can't believe it.

Joel: Are you accusing Nick Saban of pandering to the media?

Chad: Imagine that.

Joel: Or heaven forbid, lying to the media?

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Miami Dolphins. Maybe he's smoking something, which leads us to our next

and final story.

Chad: Nice segue.

Joel: Vangst, I assume I'm saying that right. It's angst with a V in the news this week raised $10 million-

Chad: Crazy.

Joel: In venture money. I think that brings their total to about $12.5 million. I find it interesting because we rarely find job boards interesting, but the pot industry lives in a bubble from a job board perspective. No traditional job board will touch pot jobs because they're illegal. It's still federal law that you can't smoke pot, so none of the national job boards will post pot jobs because it's the same as posting casino gambling where it's illegal jobs or whatever it is, right? I'm sure there are regulations.

Joel: So if you want to get in the job board industry, get into pot, because you live in a bubble. It's like 1999. It's the wild west, and so this company started a couple years ago. It was started out of this woman's dorm, let's say girl because she was in college. It was born out of, she emailed a consumer list that she had. She was selling something out of her dorm. She polled, here we go back to surveys, she polled her fellow college students and said, "What kind of job would you most love to have coming out of college?" Overwhelmingly, a job in the pot industry was really favorable.

Joel: So she said, "Holy shit. I gotta start a job board and get all these students that want pot jobs with employers who need to hire them." So she founded this company. It was more or less a job board/staffing company at the beginning. It has since become what we love, one of the on demand employment platforms, so similar to Uber or fill in the blank with whatever, Plated, Snag, et cetera. Students can go out to California, Colorado, wherever it's legal. On their phone, what jobs are available, what hours do I want to work? I assume they're getting high in the hours that they're not working, although they're working in pot. I don't know if that's. Anyway.

Joel: So this is, it's just kind of cool to side story in the job board space which is relatively boring in most cases. This is where the action is, and if you believe that pot is gonna be legal in the US, if not most of the world at some point.

Chad: Information from a SHRM article that I though was interesting. It's called the ABCs of THC. About 60%, 62% of US respondents to a 2018 Pew research survey said marijuana should be legal. 62%. Now, back in 2000, that was only 31%, so it's doubled. State laws reflect that changing attitude to where about 33 states, there are a shit ton of states today that have legalized medical marijuana, and ten states approved both its medical and recreational use, right?

Chad: So the global legal marijuana market is expected to reach 146, over 146 billion by the end of 2025.

Joel: Yeah, and I've seen estimates as high as 500 billion-

Chad: Fuck.

Joel: At it's height. I mean, if you agree that it's gonna be 25% of the tobacco industry, then you're just looking at ridiculous numbers.

Chad: Here's something else. So marijuana possession cases, regardless of quantity or a person's criminal record will no longer be prosecuted in Baltimore as the State's Attorney General actually said that. I see more of that happening as well, where it's like look. We've over the years have incarcerated way too many fucking people over weed.

Joel: By the way, isn't it strange that former House Speaker John Boehner is like leading the charge. Have you seen these commercials?

Chad: Yes.

Joel: Like John Boehner pot conferences and pot summits. It's totally bizarre, particularly for guys like us who grew up in the just say no era that the former Speaker of the House that's a Republican is leading the charge about legalized pot.

Chad: Always told us gateway drug, man. That's all we heard. Oh, dude, marijuana's the gateway drug. Don't do it man.

Joel: Being Gen X sucks, man. Sex was gonna kill you, drugs were gonna kill you,

the Russians were gonna kill you. Everyone was gonna kill us growing up.

Chad: Pretty much.

Joel: So yeah. The kids now have it much easier. I'm getting the munchies with all this high talk. It's time for lunch. I'm out if you are.

Chad: I am out.

Joel: We out.

Chad: We out.

Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that.

Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny, gold pairs that are extra because ... well, I'm extra. For more, visit

#Marijuana #Ghosting #Texting #Messaging #Indeed #Canvas #Mya #Amazon #Walmart

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