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Fear and Loathing from HR Tech in Vegas

What do you get when you combine one of the industry's most popular conferences, free booze and a hoard of ravenous Chad & Cheese fans?

A weekly podcast highlighted by sleep-deprivation, hoarse voices and inexplicably unintelligible commentary. In need of some serious hydration, Chad & Cheese still find a way to bring the pain.

This week ...

- TMP / AIA acquires Maximum. Who?

- Bullhorn drops a bomb on the recruiting industry

- LinkedIn dances on the grave of Hire by Google

- Facebook Marketplace rumor alert!

- Uber Work launches. Desperation or Mad Genius?

- Bikini shaming job candidates ... just say No

... and much, much more awesomeness.

Enjoy, and bow down to our sponsors: Sovren, JobAdx, and Canvas.


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Tengai: Hi, this is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot, you are listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. I love these guys.

Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, bottle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast.

Joel: Oh yeah, welcome to the phone it in after HR tech in Vegas episode of the Chad & Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm Chad, had a few hours sleep at least Sowash.

Joel: Yeah, just call me Joel red-eye Cheesman today. On this week show TMP go shopping in Europe. Uber gets into the world of work and Facebook just might be giving us another reason to care about their marketplace for jobs. Here's hoping my voice doesn't give out. Enjoy this word from Soren and we'll be right back.

Sovren: Soren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting that's We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you want to take it to dinner.

Chad: Bourbon so good, you want to drink it during the show?

Joel: A liver so deteriorated, you want to get a new one.

Chad: Dude. So Austin, Vegas, I mean it's a good thing we have a couple of weeks before we go back-

Joel: Oh, my God.

Chad: Tote I need sleep, my liver needs water. I mean this is, yeah, I'm ready to be home.

Joel: Pretty sure my two year old is driving by now. I think he's, my daughter is engaged to be married and calls in the army or something like that.

Chad: Oh, dude, don't say all that.

Joel: But we a had a good time, right? That was a fucking blast.

Chad: I hadn't had a great time, and part of the reason why our livers are shot is Shane Gray from clench. I mean, he's brought beer for us in at least three different show. Shan no, we want to make sure that the show gets what it needs, and he's a big supporter. So I think it was higher COF last year was the first time he brought the big case of Modelo, Austin, he brought Guinness straight from Ireland. He went back home, got more Guinness and came back Hoover and we had Guinness for our last show yesterday. So I mean it was a blast, but in Guinness doesn't taste even close to as good as it does when it's coming straight from Ireland. I mean, awesome.

Joel: Yeah, are Irish the most nice people in the world?

Chad: He's just amazing dude. I don't how-

Joel: Actually Europeans are so much better than us, it's ridiculous.

Chad: Yeah, I know they are. It's funny how nice and their sarcasm blends so well with being nice because you don't know if they're fucking with you or not. Most of the times they're actually fucking with you. It's kinda like the guys from talent nexus, we were in Austin with them and the entire time I'm thinking, they're just fucking with me the entire time. And they probably were, but they're incredibly smart, incredibly funny and then they like to fuck with you and I like that.

Joel: Yeah. If there's anything that is really cool about this gig is we get to go to places and really get to know the people in those places more so than we probably ever would have doing anything else. So yeah.

Chad: So yeah, so shout out Jeremy Roberts from hiring Soft who actually like impromptu, not much lead time whatsoever got on stage with us because he adds something that he wanted to share that we're going to launch next week in a different podcast. But good time with with Jeremy from Hiring Soft. And thanks Sean, the CEO for letting me get on stage.

Joel: I think he would have had to because Jeremy used to be a rock star when he was with source gone. He used to be on stage all the time and now he's sort of the back office genius marketier. So he was really pretty excited I think to be on stage. In fact, he was there well before we showed up. So he was stretching and doing his squats and hip thrusts. So he was excited for sure.

Chad: Shots of red bull. Yeah.

Joel: He's been in the room doing coffee for three hours. He's ready to go. Shout out to Jeanette Meister-

Chad: Maiester. It's Maiester.

Joel: Jeez, yeah. I've never seen more fire in a four foot seven package like I'd have Janette Maiester, this lady is full of attitude and knowledge of the industry and she made a pretty good request that we need some lady shirts for the Chad & Cheese show because we have a unisex kind of fits everyone looks okay, but she's like, I need the slim fit. I need the V-neck, I need the lady cut shirt.

Chad: She also needs like a triple X small because she's not big. And I told her, I said, look, this is a unisex kind of let's say world that we're in right now and that T shirt looks really hot on my wife, so if you can't make it look hot on you, I'm sorry, I'm not getting a shirt just for you.

Joel: She knows we're an inclusive podcast, we include everyone.

Chad: Everybody.

Joel: She goes to baby gap and they say, no, you too, no you got to go. You've got to go to Carter's or wherever the hell she shops.

Chad: All the parties, man, that we went to in Vegas, I want to thank the crew at Mya, Mike, Vinita, y'all got a chance to actually sit down and have some drinks with the co-founder CEO over at Mya. Acres, that bastard he brought us into a greenhouse checker in the hacker rank for that first night party and then-

Joel: They have tacos.

Chad: You can't go wrong with tacos.

Joel: Tacos and riddles, yeah, you can't go wrong with that people.

Chad: And they just kept bringing the sangria in the riddles. I mean that was a pretty good way to start off a show.

Joel: And don't forget Craig Fisher, Charney is a new company that he announced that was a good party. Was it Fetcher? Was that the other company Fetcher?

Chad: Fetcher was there, and also Jerome, the CEO of smart recruiters had some time to actually talk to him, so that was pretty cool. And Scott over at Fetcher stay away from firing squad, man, I'll send somebody after your knees. So don't be messing with firing squad.

Joel: You got a little bit of sneak preview, we might be attending smart recruiters next year.

Chad: It's a possibility.

Joel: I'm going to jump the gun, but it happened.

Chad: Yeah. And our sponsors were out in mass tower, JobAdX, Talkpush, Soren was hooking us up with bourbon.

Joel: The good stuff.

Chad: Yeah, who'd we-

Joel: We shamed Robert in Austin about going a little light on the bourbon, the wood you can get from your local Kroger store. So he brought the A game and brought the Jack Daniels Sinatra edition. Very nice. Thank you.

Chad: That was delicious. And we also have news that this way global received the people's choice award.

Joel: Very nice. So the Pitchfest there at HR tech, this is a highly contested competition. And this way global who we interviewed for our first brew review, which is coming out soon won the people's choice award. Now it was a five grand check and not a 30,000, which is what the owner got, but still you're the people's choice, hats off to you Angela Hood and team.

Chad: That's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome. What else do you have to shout out?

Joel: I want to give a shout out to my favorite booth because I mentioned it in the show at the show, but I haven't mentioned it and I want to mention it because I think it's funny. Anyway, so in the startup pavilion these aren't booths, these are like little kiosks of going. And you get a little message, a little billboard and then like a little desk and a chair and you talk to companies and these are usually startups. Anyway, it's of my favorite parts of the show because you get to see the new stuff and the ideas and I'm really keen on that.

Joel: So my favorite booth and our favorite kiosk in the pavilion this year was I was walking by and the sign said Gen Z is coming, are you ready? Now the funny thing about this is the kiosk was empty, so it was sort of like, yeah, Gen Z is coming, but as soon as they're ready, not on your time there.

Chad: Not now.

Joel: Yeah. They're eating some quinoa and headed out to the smoothie King before they hit up the trade show. So let's get them on fire squad shall we? That was fucking, that was fucking Epic, like I couldn't stop laughing.

Chad: Two quick ones. Tyler Weeks just dropped a pod, he was so excited interview. He's a analyst and automation manager over at Intel. Great shit, great pod look for it, Tyler Weeks. And also our friends over at SmashFly, you are always the gift that just keeps on giving.

Joel: And by the way, to our fans who are named Ralph rant, I don't.

Chad: Oh God, yes.

Joel: People wearing shirts at the show, people showing up at our live show with like shirts and they knew, we have fans, dude and it's kinda creepy, but it's also awesome.

Chad: So humbling and so awesome. So thanks so much. Really appreciate it. And-

Joel: What a great sort of industry tip that one of our fans says whenever she gets a call from a vendor, she searches Chad cheese and then the vendor name and then she gets the notes on what we said about that vendor. So what a great little bit of intelligence. Thank God we transcribe the mother fucker. Otherwise she couldn't do that. That's up to you for doing that. So yeah, we have value people, believe it or not, we're not just two drunken idiots.

Chad: Yes. Go to Google, Chad cheese, whatever you're searching for, and boom, y'all, it'll be pod horrific.

Joel: Pod rific that's worse than technologize.

Chad: Technologize from like family Jack, our friends at CLO who couldn't find a better word. Events. We have a couple of weeks. We're going to be, we're going to be able to pop out some pods, which is going to be nice. And then we're going to Paris for unleash world.

Joel: Which looks fucking amazing. A lineup of speakers. It's gonna be great.

Chad: I'm stoked. We're taking the stage October 22nd at 1145 on the influencer stage at the Paris convention center. We're going to be with a Brandy Ellis, head of recruitment marketing at SmashFly, Chris Wray group, head of recruitment for Sainsbury's and Adam years, Lee global head of talent management at Red bull. So SmashFly is sponsoring this trip. We really appreciate it and we'll forward to getting over there and shit because that's always fun.

Joel: I still think we could get Bob Geldof on stage. I don't know.

Chad: I think he'd be into it.

Joel: Obviously. Tell him to SmashFly is one of the new punk groups making waves in America. And maybe it'll show up SmashFly debut album.

Chad: Yeah. On on the influencer stage with Chad cheese iCIMs and November. So going to play golf in Scottsdale probably before that and then enjoying some time with our peeps at ICMs.

Joel: Yeah, a lot of changes at iCIMs. I'm excited to ask some hard questions about what's going on there.

Chad: Not afraid of asking hard questions, just hope they're relevant. Don't know. Where's the beer? All right. This says December 6th. We're going to Dallas for talent net live. And I asked Craig, I'm like, okay, Greg, what do you want us to do while we're there? It's like, Aw. And I shouldn't have asked that question because now we're probably going to be like on every panel and who knows why-

Joel: We should be on every fucking panel. God damn it.

Chad: Messaged a Fisher message to Craig Fisher.

Joel: So we're doing, are we doing the naughty or nice show?

Chad: Yeah, I definitely do the naughty or nice show.

Joel: That's one of my favorite shows.

Chad: That's a fun show. Excellent. Well, let's get into topics.

Joel: Let's do this, alright. TMP not slowing down acquisition this week of maximum, who honestly, I've never heard of a, but they're an agency out of the Netherlands. The economic powerhouse, the Netherlands. So yeah, TMPs make an acquisitions. You'll remember they bought was it Perengo the programmatic solution earlier this year and then now who else did they buy? They bought another agency, right? Not-

Chad: They'd been buying up small agencies here and there. But I think the big message here is Perengo and Maxim. They're both mainly tech companies to an extent. And, and now, I mean, that's just a tech expansion and upgrades. Not with the pinch, more than a pinch of, of, of Aqua hire as well. Obviously big. I think for TMPs EU division, AIA worldwide and I bet they're just happy as fuck right now. But this is a broadening the market across the pond, being able to kind of spread out and take a competitor off the board. Think of talent brew talent. Barry's been around for a while. I mean, how many years is, I mean it's probably been 10 then.

Joel: Yeah, I'd say 10.

Chad: Yeah. So you know, some of that infrastructure's gotta be old. So in flute infusing hopefully some of this new tech into it will revive it and provide a more of a broad solution set for these guys. Not to mention again with the whole programmatic play with per Ringo, I'm really excited to see what they do.

Joel: Yeah. I think, I think the keyword there that you said was acquires and I think that as we're learning that as the agency gang gets much more complex, it's not the a posted job board on these sites that skill set anymore. It's actually understanding technology and AI and chatbots and programmatic shit. Like you need really smart people to have a successful agency. So I think buying these little companies that are probably cheap for someone like TMP to get the talent that's there I think is a pretty smart move I did. Here I'm, as we're doing this show, I'm remembering some rumors and stuff from HR tech and that there was a rumor I wanna say someone had said fairly reputable that TMP was close to acquiring higher clicks. So that's very rudimentary, a rumor at this point, but that would not surprise me based on what TMP is currently doing.

Chad: Yeah. That would be an interesting acquisition. That's for sure. Not a battle and don't get me wrong, but that would be an interesting acquisition. So we posted this out on Facebook and Chad Mullinax actually responded with this comment. Yup. So he quoted from one of the articles, maximum software suite greatly replaces TMPS talent brew, career site and recruitment marketing platform. And then his comment was fixed it. There might be a little sarcasm in there, but I think for what Chad trying to say is, yeah, getting their shit upgraded. It's not a bad thing TMP.

Joel: That is one big pile of shit. Well, also in the acquisition news this past week was bullhorns acquisition of a recruit. We did a shred on this. So if you're not subscribed to the show you've not heard this news, but if you have, you're in the know. Bullhorn one of the biggest platform, obviously to bring recruiters together with companies, manage candidates has bought one of the biggest ATS is specifically for the staffing industry. They both raised about 30, $35 million, Born It's been around for fucking ever. And he recruits about a 10 year old company. So the comment I got from someone who really knows the recruiting industry said this is a really big fucking deal. So I'm gonna go with them and say like, this is a pretty big fucking deal.

Chad: Yeah, no, it is they're both applicant tracking systems that are specific to the staffing. When you take a look at staffing as it's recruiting as a business, so you have to be really good at what you do on the applicant tracking system side of the house. But still, you know as well as I do, price means a lot. And from my understanding E-recruits has been chopping Bullhorns legs out from under them on many, many big deals. So a comment that I actually had from a listener said, this is huge news within the staffing space. E recruit has been doing well and onboarded some big name clients including manpower and I believe some of the Kelly services side of the house. So now you're not just taking a competitor off the board, but once again, I think much like TMP, you might have an opportunity to broaden up or maybe even refresh or restore some of the technology that you have.

Joel: Yeah, for sure, and the terms of the deal were not disclosed. As usual, if anyone out there has information and wants to share it either anonymously or on the record, they can do The one whisper number, I heard that the sound's really low, it doesn't make a lot of sense was 53 million. I'm guessing it was quite a bit more than that, but I have no wordy one way or the other. So if anyone knows, let us know and we'll let the world know.

Chad: Let's just hope this doesn't turn into an IBM Kenexa and brass ring type of shit show.

Joel: You know it could, right?

Chad: It could very well easily turn into that.

Joel: Dude, I need to go refill my water. Let's hear from JobAdX and we'll talk about LinkedIn and Facebook.

Chad: Let's do it.

JobAdX: Nope, naah, not for me, all these jobs look the same. Oh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just have heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it. We live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions. Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop off.

JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team, help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing, that's,, attract, engage, employ with JobAdX.

Joel: You know, speaking of killing it, fucking JobAdX, dude, it's all of them, but the show, they're hired a lot of people, like they're coaching indeed people. I mean, what happened to our little company that was a sponsor with like two people on board. It's pretty cool to watch.

Chad: A little company that can-

Joel: And it could.

Chad: So they are-

Joel: And will.

Chad: I always give Isabel a hard time like your ads are too long, but I just realized it's the only time during the show that I can actually get up and take a piss.

Joel: Well played sir, well played, well played. Why did we not ask for a piece of that company when we had a chance? Dammit.

Chad: Hind sights 2020.

Joel: Hind sights 2020. Let's talk about two companies that will never get a piece of LinkedIn and Facebook. So the LinkedIn annual event was last week I think.

Chad: Yes, yes.

Joel: And obviously people were slurping up the LinkedIn goodness. They had Gary V on the keynote stage, which if you've never seen Gary Vaynerchuk just he's everywhere online.

Chad: How have you not seen Gary fucking V? That's the question.

Joel: Yeah. If you know what a podcast is, you likely know who Gary Vaynerchuk is.

Chad: You've ever been on LinkedIn, if you've ever been on any type of social media, hell, that dude has probably one of the best tick-tock accounts. I mean, it's just like he's everywhere.

Joel: Yeah. He's on the corner of my a neighborhood right now as we speak. And by the way-

Chad: Hi Gary.

Joel: Just the jets sucks and hats off to Lars our industry buddy who got, I think Vayner media's head of talent to get on his podcast. So a shout out to the, I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm sure it's solid work by our boy Lars.

Chad: We were talking about LinkedIn from the standpoint of their applicant tracking system, because we've seen a bump. And at least the advertising in kind of like the marketing of talent hub lately, right?

Joel: Yeah. I mean, tell me the halls of LinkedIn weren't doing high fives and cartwheels when a hire by Google shut down. That must have been a happy day at LinkedIn. But yeah, so it launched, I want to say a year, a little over a year or more ago. I certainly wrote about it. And we talked about it, but they are full steam ahead hemp and that shit they're talking about one platform which we've been talking about everyone is trying to do. You know, I drink the LinkedIn Kool-Aid like nobody else, and then my money is still on them and they seem to be marching down the path of being, if not the one platform at least one of the top three that people choose to do a lot of their recruiting.

Chad: In the actual marketing material, in the video it says the only ATS

powered by the LinkedIn network.

Joel: That's true.

Chad: What did they mean powered? I mean, I don't understand, is it the

people? Is it the technology? I mean we-

Joel: It got gotta be the people.

Chad: What does that mean?

Joel: The people is their ultimate differentiator.

Chad: Okay. So then they don't have a differentiator then because the people, the database is now open because it's public.

Joel: Dude, I can't believe after after our Jeremy Roberts interview and I'm teasing the episode cause it's awesome. I mean, even Jeremy agrees that the ultimate winner in this is LinkedIn because his profiles get commoditized and data gets commoditized. Like all companies that do this shit are going to be marginalized, but I'm giving away too much from the interview.

Chad: Yeah, I don't think so. I think core tech and here's what I'm saying is cortex. So let's say take a look at like a company like seek out which has much better power search capabilities than LinkedIn provides. They get bought by an applicant tracking system. So how is LinkedIn the winner then?

Joel: Well, LinkedIn is the winner if seek out, can't make money on the data because everyone has it.

Chad: I just said seek out gets bought by an applicant tracking system. You need to listen a little bit closer there sweetheart. That's what I'm talking about. That's how you win. That's the next step, how do you not see that? If the data is public and you already have a core system of record, all you need is something that is incredibly powerful and something that can actually index and search on those people.

Joel: So seek out wins because they get acquired? Okay.

Chad: That's what I'm saying. Seek out wins, and also, yeah, I believe so too. And then the applicant tracking system or the core system that acquires them wins too, what can this LinkedIn applicant tracking system do that no other applicant tracking system can do.

Joel: Dude, this is going to be the most fascinating, the whole privacy issue, the whack-a-mole stuff like what happens to hire tool and seek out and I mean I won't give it away, but hiring solve is making serious changes in their business, because of what they see. Like it's going to be really interesting to see how this whole thing shakes out. And I think both of us are slightly pulling shit out of our ass because we really don't know how this is gonna shake out, but it's going to be a hell of a lot of fun. Hell, a lot of fun to talk about and watch.

Chad: I just think from a strategic standpoint my question is how, what does LinkedIn have that nobody else has? That's the question. And if I was an external system, could I not just go ahead and buy a startup that does it better than LinkedIn? So those are the kind of the things that are whirling around in my head as other companies try to position themselves against LinkedIn and Microsoft.

Joel: I mean, I do think that one thing that you probably can't debate is that LinkedIn has the freshest data of what's out there, and we'll continue to have the freshest data.

Chad: Until the go to wall garden status. That's great because everybody is actually pulling the freshest this data into their system.

Joel: Seriously, I mean, I think that's going to happen, do you?

Chad: Yeah, I can't believe they haven't done it yet. I mean, unless there are some external marketing and they're getting so much traffic from Google right now for people that are actually entering LinkedIn and profiles through Google search. I don't know, that's the big question.

Joel: Good stuff. So moving on to Facebook, again from the HR tech rumor mail, I was talking to a popular programmatic solution, I don't think they want to be named in this, but so I won't. But they mentioned that obviously programmatic, they're posting jobs in all kinds of places, they've been posting jobs onto Facebook, you know, for free for a long time since Facebook has been doing that. And apparently Facebook has just introduced an API for those folks to boost certain jobs within Facebook, and apparently they're starting to beta test if it's not live yet.

Joel: They've obviously been very quiet about it because they haven't said anything publicly because it would go very viral if they did. So where if you post a job on Facebook, you can have a little boost button, advertise it, give it top rating, I dunno how exactly they're going to highlight those jobs, but we saw this coming and it looks like it's finally almost here. To me it's like a natural progression of Facebook and what they're doing. I wouldn't be surprised to see Google launch pay per click for jobs soon, but it also says that Facebook is still kind of sorta paying attention to this whole jobs marketplace and they're still sort of serious about it.

Chad: So just for clarity, can other job boards post their jobs into Facebook for boosting as well?

Joel: So my understanding is with the API that the job board could add as you're posting, Hey, do you want to boost this job on Facebook? And then the job would plug in and boost directly from the job board, or the job board could feed in an XML file and just tag, have a certain tag or some scheme that says this is a boost job. And then Facebook would charge the job board, I guess for that promotion of the opportunity. It's really early and this is sort of rumor stuff. I'll dig into it a little more and maybe give you some more information on a future show, but this totally makes sense, I think it's just a matter of getting more information about what's going on.

Chad: Yeah, no it does. I mean there are just many problems around duplication and being able to take old jobs off and all that other fun stuff that Google's trying to deal with right now. So it will be interesting to see how this matures.

Joel: Absolutely, absolutely. Uber work, you're pretty excited about this one. I actually have not read this story on this, I could probably guess what's going on, but this is sort of your lane. What's up with Uber?

Chad: You would think so, but they kind of throw a curve ball, so it's fun. It's funny because we just got back from Austin about a week or so ago, and you see jump bikes, which are Uber, pretty much Uber bikes, jumped scooters, which are, Uber's has AC have Uber's, you have scooters, you have bikes, you have Uber eats, and now you have Uber work.

Joel: By the way I hope to God Vegas never gets scooters because that would be a total nightmare, although convenient a total nightmare.

Chad: Yeah. But now Uber works, it's looking to steer clear of the conversation around some of the regs that Uber was slammed over in California around contractors. It's really interesting because now instead of being like the platform and the place where you go to get the people, what Uber is looking be is just the technology platform, the staffing platform for staffing organizations. I didn't see that coming. I didn't see that coming at all, I thought they would be much like they are on everything else that they do. They're a full meal deal, you get everything.

Joel: So it's like a white label solution for anyone who wants to have the Uber platform for workers?

Chad: Yeah, I think it's ... So here's a little bit from tech crunch. Uber believes a new technology first approach can provide faster and easier means for people to get to work while offering greater insights into the many opportunities for work that are out there, improving the experience for workers and businesses like. I think what they're looking to do, and this is a W2 kind of a scenario through the staffing company, is there's a couple of things that they might be going after. They might be trying to slowly get into and Trojan horse this bitch, which makes a lot of sense. You get in there and you get it all and you understand it and then boom, it's all yours. But also, I mean all the money that they're spending in building infrastructure for everything else that they're doing, it doesn't make sense to do the same thing here.

Chad: So if you can kind of glom on with the staffing companies and then the staffing companies who we've talked about, like indeed in scene where you see kind of this amalgamation of staffing meets tech and it's more platform based than it is human based. So you don't have the cost because you don't have all those human resources. I mean, it's really interesting, I'm not 100% sure of what they're looking to do other than just provide the Uber platform as tech staffing companies have the actual people, they put them on W2 and then they pay the taxes where Uber doesn't have to fuck with that stuff.

Joel: Yeah, I mean to me, like a year ago I would have said this sounds like evil genius strategy to rule the world, now I'm leaning more into, it started to feel like desperation. I mean obviously since they've gone public, their financials and things are more available and the scrutiny is much higher than it was as a private company. That little story for me, I don't know if you experienced this as well, but typically at airports I'll take a Lyft or Uber. It's an easy, convenient airports have spaces now. So in Vegas which historically to get a taxi is like an eight line, 45 minute wait and it's like a real mass. So I'm walking to the section that has the lifts and the Ubers, and I literally look down and see the taxi line which has like 12 people.

Joel: But I'm almost to the Uber lift area, so I get there and it's like chaos, it's just overcrowded, people