The only thing warmer than the chestnuts roasting on our open fire is the heat coming out of the world of recruitment. This week, the boys
1) uncover breaking news from the deadpool,
2) discuss another programmatic solutions acquisition
3) Colin Day gives Google for Jobs some iCIMS love
4) HackerRank scores a pipeline and...
5) chat-up how making Uber drivers in California FTEs might not actually be the best thing since, well, Uber.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Aw, yeah. We're back for the weekly show. It's the jolliest bunch of assholes this side of the nuthouse.
Joel: Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, you naughty bunch of boys and girls. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad Stockings-on-the-Fireplace Sowash.
Joel: Love it. On this week's episode, iCIMS Colin Day preaches, HackerRank acquires. Grab a candy cane and shove it in your piehole, Rudolph. We'll be right back after we pay for a few of these damn presents.
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Chad: That's right.
Joel: Ho-ho-ho. Speaking of dinner...
Joel: ... tonight, first shoutout, the Chad and Cheese annual holiday party...
Chad: Here it comes.
Joel: ... goes down tonight in lovely Fishers, Indiana, this year.
Chad: We're going to pregame at your house, right? Then we're going to go eat the expensive food, maybe cigars or something. Who knows what'll happen after that?
Joel: Yes, you've got that all correct. Who knows where the night will take us? Selfies will be had, sharing will be done. People will probably feel like they were there with us, tonight.
Chad: I feel like they always do, which is why they bring us along with them, everywhere they go.
Joel: Yeah. And somehow, they keep tuning in and keep wanting to see shit. Anyway, my first shoutout, I'm always excited to see where our annual holiday party takes us.
Chad: Yeah. Well, first shoutout for me, and this is a double shoutout... First off, Kelly Robinson gets the first shoutout, first and foremost, because he couldn't believe that we had to be reminded just how good Mariah Carey was, #blasphemy. Kelly, to be fair, man, Joel can't remember what he had for dinner last night. That he remembered Mariah Carey was a feat upon itself.
Chad: A bigger shoutout was the measure of alcohol, whiskey aplenty, that Kelly, RedDot Media, and the people over at Pager, the content app, actually sent to us. It was a 12 Days of Christmas, which means we have 12 days that we will be.. Joel's already shared his. I'm going to, after Christmas, the 12 days after Christmas I think is when it starts, I'm going to start the daily regimen of sharing those whiskeys online, social media, and we'll probably talk about it on the podcast, too.
Joel: Yeah. No way could I wait for that. Kelly is on a full-on arsenal of our livers, and I love it, for one. Did know he was such a Mariah Carey fan, didn't quite put that together. But, yeah, this is a company called Flaviar, I think, is how you pronounce it, but they're sort of a Birchbox, Stitch Fix. What's the company you're using now?
Chad: Hyde Closet.
Joel: Yeah, Hyde Closet. High Closet?
Chad: Hyde, yeah.
Joel: Okay. So, you get regular tastings and whiskeys and things like that. This was sort of a 12 days, sampling each day. I've had three of them already, and they're quite delicious. This is over three days, by the way. I'm not a total drunk. But, yeah. It was great. He has upped the game for everyone who's looking to get on our good side with liquor.
Chad: Yeah. I'd like to say, this has been a great year for the Chad and Cheese Podcast when it comes to schwag and liquor. Bayard sent us both whiskey. We had Recruitics send us beer. Shit, Talent Nexus sent me beer for three months, or something like that. So I mean, we've had ample amounts of schwag, high quality schwag, and alcohol, and we're looking forward to 2020 because we believe that's how you guys can actually up your game.
Joel: Yeah. We better get more sponsors, because the cost of liver transplants has gone up as far as I've been reading in the news. I'm going to give a shoutout to Rich Lucas. Rich heard our podcast last week, in regards to Monster sending out spam sales messages. Apparently, he got one from Glassdoor and wanted to share that with me. So, Rich, shoutout to you, man, for sharing that with us. Glassdoor, get on that spam train, baby.
Chad: It's that time of year, people. It a cue for, everybody's doing everything they can to kind of squeeze-
Joel: Make those numbers!
Chad: Yeah, make those numbers, people. My next shoutout is to Sylvain Oppizzi over at neuvoo, soon to be Talent.com. This week, I personally, and I'm sure you did too, received a ton of messages on LinkedIn, Facebook, text messages, from last week's shred about neuvoo buying Talent.com, and also because of the Adzuna Shade podcast. Thanks so much, guys. We really appreciate you listening.
Chad: Not to mention, this is also funny. Doug Monro, who was really the focal point, the co-founder at Adzuna who was throwing shade at neuvoo, just couldn't leave well enough alone, which I appreciate. I love the engagement. But, on LinkedIn, Doug actually responded with, "Ha, ha. Bang on, guys. Thanks for the free psychoanalysis, and appreciate the free Adzuna namechecks. Based on your feedback, we're thinking of rebranding as ChadAndCheese.com." That's because we're ChadCheese.com. "It looks like that's available."
Chad: My response was, "Of course, Doug, you're welcome. Thanks for reminding me, because we already own ChadAndCheese.com to redirect the domain, along with other domains like DangerHR, DangerousHR, and DangerousPodcasts, all dot-coms. And you can see that they're all easy to remember and spell, unlike Adzuna."
Joel: Surprisingly, I got an email from Adzuna, which was a holiday e-card.
Chad: Me, too.
Joel: Yeah. We were added to the list.
Chad: I love it.
Joel: Not opted-in but, hell, whatever. I was half expecting to flip the card and get a middle finger or maybe a big pile of shit or something, but it was just a photo of the employees. So, thank you for adding us to the list.
Chad: Again, we totally love that, Doug coming back, interacting with us, just kind of throwing barbs every now and again. That's cool shit. We enjoy that. And so, yeah, Doug's on the holiday list. I mean, anybody who can take that kind of shit from us and come back and give us shit, I love it, good stuff.
Joel: Speaking of holiday lists, our Chad and Cheese holiday cards have been going out. We're getting some early feedback. One of my favorites was Susan Vitale, who totally got our stepbrothers themed postcard and replied on Twitter accordingly. Susan, as always, you're on top of your sense of humor and your pop culture and your meatheaded comedy. So, shoutout to you for that, and happy holidays to you and your baby and family.
Chad: Yeah. And I think for Susan, next year, you and I might
do a Golden Girls version. That would be awesome.
Joel: Yeah. A lot of stuff is on the table, man. We can do a Wham thing, like one of us in a Choose Life t-shirt. I mean, there's a lot of ways we can go with this.
Chad: Yeah, yeah. This is just beginning, people. Also, thanks to Josh, Quincy, and many others who sent us messages this week, and also the person who said that in the photo, the caricature, I look like white Obama. Well played, well played.
Joel: Dude, I laughed so hard when they were like, "I thought that was white Obama," and you were like, "Obama's a good-looking guy." I thought... Anyway, that's fine. James Ellis, again with some feedback, he found inspiration in the German Krumpus, which is something that I think eats children that are bad during Christmas. I'm not up on my German folklore, but leave it to James to throw eating children and connect it to our postcard. Thanks, James.
Chad: Yeah. I think it's Krampus, but I could be wrong.
Joel: Krumpus, Krampus, whatever.
Chad: Whatever it is. A big shoutout to Charu Malhotra and also Tabatha Ward. Thanks for connecting on LinkedIn and listening. And also remember, if you're a listener out there, feel free to reach out to us on LinkedIn, on Twitter, we even have a Chad and Cheese Facebook page, but overall it's very important that you subscribe first. Whether you're listening on iTunes or Google Podcast or Spotify or Crowdcast, whatever it might be, just go and subscribe and you'll get Chad and Cheese in your daily-
Joel: Sorry, kids, still no Chad and Cheese TikTok account. Maybe that's something we can look at in 2020.
Chad: Ooh, that's a good call. Big shoutout to Evergreen Podcast, baby.
Joel: Ow! Cleveland's own.
Chad: That's right, that's right. In January we will also be launching a new series of podcasts called Voices. Why? Because many of the people that are out there, who are influential, are also behind the scenes. We wanted to be able to raise them up and get some awareness to those individuals in our industry. So, look for the new series within the actual Chad and Cheese umbrella. Just subscribe at Chad and Cheese, and you'll notice new Voices podcasts that are actually series.
Chad: 'Til Tuesday, baby.
Joel: Let's get to the news.
Chad: This one is pretty sad.
Joel: What is it? What, WTF, JWT, WT, NSW? I don't know what's going on here.
Chad: Yeah. RIP, so rest in peace to Wunderman Thompson Employ, also known as WT Employ, which was also known as JWT Inside for years, well-known in the industry. We were actually turned on to this by Steven Rothberg. He received an email and thought, "Wow, this is kind of weird shit." I hadn't heard from JWT in forever, and it's because they were actually merged with another organization and they created Wunderman Thompson.
Chad: Overall, I'd never heard of this organization or WT Employ, so when I heard that they were shutting down I was like, "So, what? I don't even know who the fuck these people are." Well, they're JWT Inside. I don't get it, overall. They were fairly prominent in our industry and they had a ton of services that they provided, again, to their clients, but it seems like they really don't want to focus on the employment sector. This is actually a quote from a high-ranking individual at WT Employ.
Chad: I pretty much ask, "Is this true, that you guys are shutting down?" The response was, "Unfortunately, yes. That is true. Our offering apparently doesn't align with Wunderman Thompson's new leadership vision." It's interesting because, as you and I talk to cult brands, everything they talk about is how the people inside the actual employment piece matters so much. But Wunderman Thompson, which is a big, flashy type of advertising company, that's not where their focus is going to be.
Joel: Yeah. You know, someone needs to write a book on the recruitment advertising industry because, you and I are old enough to sort of remember the days of how much they made on display ads in the newspaper and how the business was pretty much an order-taking business, it was a schmoozing business. Companies chose agencies based on how many lunches they got, how many special parties. I mean, there wasn't a lot of thought around what these business...
Joel: There wasn't a lot of creativity in terms of business. And then the internet came along and job postings became free to $100 a posting, and then agencies couldn't make the money. So then it was like, "Okay, well, let's be a tech company." So you saw firms launch their own ATSs and their own shit. Right? And then 2008 happened, the world ended, and then it was like, "Let's change our name. Let's change direction. What are we going to do? Let's get acquired or acquire."
Joel: And then now, you're in this weird place where some of the ones that have been around for a long time, you know, the shakers who are making smart decisions, and then others like JWT, the old days, changed to JWT Inside, now it's WT Employ, now it's going to be gone. But, the whole history of agencies is really fascinating. I think a lot of younger people that are listening have no context to where these things have gone in the last 20-25 years, but there's been a ton of disruption and chaos in the agency business.
Chad: This actually says something, right? When we see companies like TMP, Symphony, Shaker, Recruitics, you see these companies that are actually acquiring, thriving, building, I mean, this is the industry to be able to... not the industry. This is the economy to be able to build in this industry, but those organizations are all focused on the employment...
Chad: JWT Inside, which became WT Employ, did all the things that you would think that they would do, employment branding, experienced strategy, recruiter toolkits. I mean, there's so many things that they actually did but, I guess overall, in the grand scheme of things, from their quote/unquote, "leadership vision," the employment piece just doesn't play that big of a part, so it's dead.
Joel: Yeah, which is ironic to your point that employment and marketing in general are getting closer than they ever have been. And I think both of us agree that they will, at some point, unite in ways that they haven't in a long time. Maybe the timing is really bad to shut this thing down.
Chad: Yeah. And/or the leaders in that organization aren't focused on a holistic type of a brand for their clients. And maybe they will partner with a TMP or a Shaker or what have you, to be able to bring in that piece. Who knows? But if they're not going to have it, their clients are going to get it somewhere.
Joel: Yeah. So, you believe it'll be more holistic, where there's employment brand, we're just building an entire brand for the company and employment will be part of that.
Chad: Well, and that's the thing, is that I don't think it works that way. I think you definitely have to think of all experiences. And no matter whether the individual is coming to your career site or coming to buy something on your site, the interactions are different but yet they're the same. They should feel like the same. You should still feel like a customer and taken care of, if you're applying for a job.
Chad: I don't think that they're probably focused on that. They're probably focused on the bigger revenue items, as opposed to employment. Even though employment, I believe, is really the foundation of where all of this goes in the first place.
Joel: Well, WTF, WT Employ, RIP.
Joel: Colin Day, who is not going bye-bye is also in the news this week, for a video that he posted. What's up with that?
Chad: Colin, he's been doing these videos. I love seeing Colin out, representing the brand. I think as they talked about Colin stepping away from being CEO and being chairman, that he would actually have more time to do some of these types of things and really be an evangelist, more than anything else. Which is, you know, he deserves after the amount of time that he actually led the organization, to kind of step back and be that evangelist.
Chad: But anyway, he did a video he posted to LinkedIn. He focused on a couple of items. First and foremost, one of the things that we pounded away on one of our podcasts... right when we got back, I think, from Arizona, the iCIMS Influence Conference... was the average unfilled job costs an employer $680 per day. Say that again. The average unfilled job costs an employer $680 per day. If the chair is empty, that's costing the organization something. What is it? iCIMS was able to boil it down to $680 a day.
Chad: Go ahead and extrapolate that out to all of your positions, et cetera, et cetera, and you start to get an opportunity, I think, to go to the c-suite and say, "This is what we're losing on a daily basis because we don't have what we need to do our job." And overall, the broader economic scheme is $160 billion drag on the economy. Being able to push that kind of data out, right out of the gate, to be able to help employers, I think, become better storytellers is incredibly key.
Joel: Yep, for sure. I, in addition to that, love Colin pounding the table on the Google for Jobs issue. We've talked about that on the show as well. But, we get a lot of job board insight from people that we know, that traffic has plateaued or it's declining, the impending death of Google for Jobs. And, if you listen to Colin, it's a completely different story. I think his story is one that we should listen to, more so than job boards, because he's actually at ground zero of where companies want candidates to go and job seekers to go, which is their own career site.
Joel: The fact that he's seeing growth, gradual growth... I think one exit we said in the last podcast from the show... and Susan Vitale, a CMO, echoed this... was that Google for Jobs is just like this marching army on all the competition. Where Google for Jobs, last year, was maybe sixth in terms of traffic to company sites, it's now number three, I think. Would anyone be surprised if, next year, it's number two? Would anyone be surprised if, the year after that, it's number one now? That's what we're seeing from Google for Jobs.
Joel: So, when you get an ATS that's willing to put itself out there and give that information to the marketplace and say, "Indeed CEO be damned," because, if he calls me and says, "What the hell are you doing," I think that's great for the marketplace and great for companies, and good on Colin Day for putting his neck out there and having a voice. I think it's fantastic.
Chad: Yeah. I think on the Google for Jobs, I mean, we've already been through this story once before with Google and SEO. How do you rank better? How do you do this better? I think first and foremost, what you need to do is align yourself with vendors who give a shit. I mean, that's number one because, if you're with a applicant tracking system who literally just does not, they don't give a shit about whether jobs are on Google for Jobs, let alone whether they're ranking well, that's a problem. And so from that standpoint, obviously iCIMS gives a shit.
Chad: And then you take a look at smaller companies that start to focus on being able to help ranking. We actually had a Firing Squad with Jobiak, with Venkat from Jobiak. So I think that you're going to see companies like this start to gain steam because, you know as well as I do, talent acquisition professionals are hearing Google for Jobs for the first time, believe it or not, and they're saying, "What the fuck? How, first and foremost, do I get my jobs there?" And then the next question is going to be, "Okay. Well, my jobs are in there but I can't find them. How do I rank better?"
Chad: It's going to be something that actually matters because, a couple of different things. First off, it's Google. I mean, let's just put that out there. And number two, they're sick and fucking tired of Indeed. That's what it is. It's one of those opportunities to be able to get away from the dark arts of bullshit that you have to deal with, with Indeed.
Joel: Yeah. Typically, ATSs don't care until their clients make them care. Right? It wasn't until Jobs to Web and other services, DirectEmployers, their program, take our jobs and optimize them for Google, that ATSs finally said, "Okay, we need to do this ourselves. There doesn't need to be a layer in-between us and Google."
Joel: Hats off again to iCIMS for having the vision to say, "Look, we're not going to wait around for our customers to say, "Hey, get us on Google for Jobs," and get engaged with Google. They just went ahead and did, and they've been a leader in this space for a long time. Hats off to them. Ultimately, every ATS is going to have to say, "We need to be in Google for Jobs. What's the schema that we need to adhere to?"
Joel: iCIMS is kind of leading the way, and the Jobiak and companies like that are helping spearhead that movement, and that's all good for Google and good for employers, direct employers, especially good for ATSs. Not so good for job boards probably, in the long run, and not good for Indeed, but hell, the market is the market. You either adapt or die.
Joel: Well, speaking of adapting, Canvas, one of the top adapters in our marketplace, let's hear from them and we'll talk about some acquisitions and Golden Bees?
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Chad: That's Amber Ferrari, everyone. And it's funny, I just checked my Twitter and Amber just got our card. She Tweeted it on Twitter. "Best card yet. Thanks for the holiday card, Chad and Joel. Here's to no coal for you, this year." And she took the picture, it seems like, out of their new offices possibly. Are they on the Circle in Indianapolis?
Joel: They are, yeah.
Chad: Oh, damn. That's good stuff. We also need to get up there and make sure that we get Aman, his trophy.
Joel: We're trying to schedule that. They've been kind of elusive. Hopefully, they'll listen to this podcast and-
Chad: They're busy.
Joel: Straight up. So, a quick real life story. I was on a call for Ratedly, my little side project, a solopreneur issue. The company I was talking to just purchased Jobvite as their ATS and Canvas was a major part of that decision, so good on Canvas, good on Jobvite. Apparently the integration is working.
Chad: Yeah. Well, again, it's one of those things where, if you have the features and you have the productivity tools that companies want and need, it just makes sense. Chatbots, texting, I mean, all the way through, programmatic, they're going to want to listen to you because that means they don't have to buy a shit-ton of other layers to try to integrate with your system, that should be integrated already.
Joel: Yep. And speaking of acquisitions and integrations, let's talk about acquisitions.
Chad: (singing) Yes. Acquisition out of France, people. Figaro Classifieds acquire Golden Bees. Okay. A shoutout to Eva Zils, over at OnlineRecruiting.net and Nathan over at AIA for sending this our way. But, Figaro Classifieds, they acquired a majority stake in the programmatic job ad tech provider Golden Bees. Figaro is pretty much just like a sexy Craigslist. I mean, it's a classified system. It looks good. It's easy to navigate. And go figure, they have jobs.
Chad: It makes a lot of sense, especially knowing that Figaro Classifieds is part of the Figaro Group. It's a large media company with many print and online titles and, apparently, it's comparable to a company you might know, called Axel Springer, who owns StepStone, who bought Appcast.
Joel: The Germans.
Chad: Yes. The Germans are doing their thing with their online publications, their StepStones, their programmatic with Appcast, which we thought, I think was probably one of the best, if not biggest buys of the year, the acquisitions of the year. And then these guys, Figaro-
Chad: ... goes in and they buy Golden Bees. Now, we've never heard of, I've never heard of Figaro or Golden Bees, but this seems like a play to try to stay at least in-step with the market in Axel Springer.
Joel: Sure. Is this five programmatics in the last quarter, I guess, of this year.
Chad: Yes. Yeah, five or six, jeez.
Joel: Jesus. Let's try the programmatic fucking advertising solution and get acquired next week.
Chad: Yeah. There's always one in Germany that we don't talk about. I think it's called Compana, or something like that, just because it was so small and we haven't heard of it, but I think there are six programmatic companies that have been bought, at least within the last five months.
Joel: Yeah. And I love that as you and I live this stuff, we get news every day, tips every day. We're on this all the time. I love it when something passes our desk, like, "Who the fuck are these guys," because it's such a big world and startups and companies are all over the place, and we can't even keep up with this shit. So, it's just really nice. Like Golden Bees, I was like, "What is that? Oh, programmatic. Okay, Figaro Classifieds. Okay, got it. Cool." That's always nice.
Joel: And it's nice to see the global impact of what we do and what we live every day get just more and more influential in people's lives. I think it's great.
Chad: Yeah, yeah. Well, in one of the statements they made, the company wanted to move toward performance-based advertising models. This is the thing, and this is what we talked about with StepStone hopefully being able to surge, at least in Germany, and then obviously break through those boundaries throughout all of Europe into what's already happening in the U.S., but to be able to really drive performance-based advertising throughout Europe and beyond, and then also hopefully start to catch up to what we're doing here in the U.S.
Joel: All the technology is not happening in the U.S. It's happening everywhere, and that's a great thing for everybody. Now we just need more robots in more countries to take over.
Chad: Yeah. All we need to do is, all we need are robot heads, 10 guys, everywhere.
Joel: That's right. All right, closer to home, another acquisition, HackerRank. Enjoyed our conversation with their CO, but they've made a really cool acquisition that really feeds well into their business in Mimir? Mimar? I don't know how to pronounce it.
Joel: Mimir, sure, let's go with that.
Joel: So, Mimir is basically software for teachers who are teaching technology, engineering, development, all that good stuff. It's essentially a cradle-to-grave strategy where HackerRank takes these kids, or funnels them, to being students, to now being full-fledged developers, and now getting them into the workforce. I think we both agree this is a great acquisition and feeds really well into the funnel that HackerRank needs to keep their database full of functioning professionals, for clients to pay them money to get them into the door and into
their companies to employ.
Chad: Yeah. For those who don't know out there, HackerRank, and this is from their website, "The market-leading technical interview platform to identify and hire developers with the right skills." Now, we've known HackerRank as more of a practicing and coding for interviews, but they're really focused heavily now on trying to parlay that into getting these individuals pipelined into companies.
Chad: Now, Mimir, which I think Mimir, instead of having professors in the classroom, you could have a 10 guy head do this. Anyway, it provides the tools for instructor-
Joel: Again with the robots.
Chad: ... provides the tools for instructors to effectively teach computer science courses of any scale without... Pretty much, overall, it's great from a scalability standpoint. It has all of these courses involved in the actual platform, itself. So, here's the beautiful thing, as Joel had said, cradle-to-grave, they are working with an enormous amount of organizations of which UCLA, Purdue, Oregon State, Michigan State, working with corporations like Google. They have 15,000-20,000 students already using the platform.
Chad: This is pipelining. This is what pipelining is, people. When you actually take people who are doing what you need them to do, and you can pipeline them into your jobs, these are the types of organizations you need to get involved with. Now, let's say for instance, on the teaching side there are gaps, from a coding standpoint, or maybe languages or what have you. That's where you work with Mimir to be able to add those into their repertoire, right, into their course collection.
Chad: And, guess what? You start pipelining them through HackerRank into your fucking jobs. I mean, from my standpoint, it's great that a company like HackerRank, and I think Vivek, and I think what they're doing over there is just outstanding, but to be able to see something like this, I think, is fucking
Joel: Yep. Mimir had raised about $2.5 million in a Series A. It's safe to say this wasn't a crazy acquisition so, from an out-of-pocket expense, probably very reasonable. And what they'll get back from it is probably on the plus side. Overall, we really like this acquisition. And I think from what we know of Figaro and Golden Bees, that was probably a good acquisition as well.
Chad: Yes. When talked to Vivek, we talked to them a little bit about this. He said, "No, not right now, but it's something that we're looking at down the road," apparently, just a few months down the road. So, great job, Vivek, and big applause to the whole team over there.
Joel: Big applause. Speaking of acquisitions, and ones that should happen soon, let's get a word from JobAdX and we'll come back and talk some freelancing shit.
Chad: Oh, yeah.
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JobAdX: Oh, I just signed up for self-serve with JobAdX. What were you talking about?
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