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The only thing warmer than the chestnuts roasting on our open fire is the heat coming out of the world of recruitment. This week, the boys

1) uncover breaking news from the deadpool,

2) discuss another programmatic solutions acquisition

3) Colin Day gives Google for Jobs some iCIMS love

4) HackerRank scores a pipeline and...

5) chat-up how making Uber drivers in California FTEs might not actually be the best thing since, well, Uber.

Enjoy, and show sponsors JobAdx, Sovren, and Canvas some holiday cheer!


Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Joel: Aw, yeah. We're back for the weekly show. It's the jolliest bunch of assholes this side of the nuthouse.

Chad: Ho-ho-ho.

Joel: Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, you naughty bunch of boys and girls. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm Chad Stockings-on-the-Fireplace Sowash.

Joel: Love it. On this week's episode, iCIMS Colin Day preaches, HackerRank acquires. Grab a candy cane and shove it in your piehole, Rudolph. We'll be right back after we pay for a few of these damn presents.

Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting, that's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.

Chad: That's right.

Joel: Ho-ho-ho. Speaking of dinner...

Chad: Yes.

Joel: ... tonight, first shoutout, the Chad and Cheese annual holiday party...

Chad: Here it comes.

Joel: ... goes down tonight in lovely Fishers, Indiana, this year.

Chad: We're going to pregame at your house, right? Then we're going to go eat the expensive food, maybe cigars or something. Who knows what'll happen after that?

Joel: Yes, you've got that all correct. Who knows where the night will take us? Selfies will be had, sharing will be done. People will probably feel like they were there with us, tonight.

Chad: I feel like they always do, which is why they bring us along with them, everywhere they go.

Joel: Yeah. And somehow, they keep tuning in and keep wanting to see shit. Anyway, my first shoutout, I'm always excited to see where our annual holiday party takes us.

Chad: Yeah. Well, first shoutout for me, and this is a double shoutout... First off, Kelly Robinson gets the first shoutout, first and foremost, because he couldn't believe that we had to be reminded just how good Mariah Carey was, #blasphemy. Kelly, to be fair, man, Joel can't remember what he had for dinner last night. That he remembered Mariah Carey was a feat upon itself.

Chad: A bigger shoutout was the measure of alcohol, whiskey aplenty, that Kelly, RedDot Media, and the people over at Pager, the content app, actually sent to us. It was a 12 Days of Christmas, which means we have 12 days that we will be.. Joel's already shared his. I'm going to, after Christmas, the 12 days after Christmas I think is when it starts, I'm going to start the daily regimen of sharing those whiskeys online, social media, and we'll probably talk about it on the podcast, too.

Joel: Yeah. No way could I wait for that. Kelly is on a full-on arsenal of our livers, and I love it, for one. Did know he was such a Mariah Carey fan, didn't quite put that together. But, yeah, this is a company called Flaviar, I think, is how you pronounce it, but they're sort of a Birchbox, Stitch Fix. What's the company you're using now?

Chad: Hyde Closet.

Joel: Yeah, Hyde Closet. High Closet?

Chad: Hyde, yeah.

Joel: Okay. So, you get regular tastings and whiskeys and things like that. This was sort of a 12 days, sampling each day. I've had three of them already, and they're quite delicious. This is over three days, by the way. I'm not a total drunk. But, yeah. It was great. He has upped the game for everyone who's looking to get on our good side with liquor.

Chad: Yeah. I'd like to say, this has been a great year for the Chad and Cheese Podcast when it comes to schwag and liquor. Bayard sent us both whiskey. We had Recruitics send us beer. Shit, Talent Nexus sent me beer for three months, or something like that. So I mean, we've had ample amounts of schwag, high quality schwag, and alcohol, and we're looking forward to 2020 because we believe that's how you guys can actually up your game.

Joel: Yeah. We better get more sponsors, because the cost of liver transplants has gone up as far as I've been reading in the news. I'm going to give a shoutout to Rich Lucas. Rich heard our podcast last week, in regards to Monster sending out spam sales messages. Apparently, he got one from Glassdoor and wanted to share that with me. So, Rich, shoutout to you, man, for sharing that with us. Glassdoor, get on that spam train, baby.

Chad: It's that time of year, people. It a cue for, everybody's doing everything they can to kind of squeeze-

Joel: Make those numbers!

Chad: Yeah, make those numbers, people. My next shoutout is to Sylvain Oppizzi over at neuvoo, soon to be This week, I personally, and I'm sure you did too, received a ton of messages on LinkedIn, Facebook, text messages, from last week's shred about neuvoo buying, and also because of the Adzuna Shade podcast. Thanks so much, guys. We really appreciate you listening.

Chad: Not to mention, this is also funny. Doug Monro, who was really the focal point, the co-founder at Adzuna who was throwing shade at neuvoo, just couldn't leave well enough alone, which I appreciate. I love the engagement. But, on LinkedIn, Doug actually responded with, "Ha, ha. Bang on, guys. Thanks for the free psychoanalysis, and appreciate the free Adzuna namechecks. Based on your feedback, we're thinking of rebranding as" That's because we're "It looks like that's available."

Chad: My response was, "Of course, Doug, you're welcome. Thanks for reminding me, because we already own to redirect the domain, along with other domains like DangerHR, DangerousHR, and DangerousPodcasts, all dot-coms. And you can see that they're all easy to remember and spell, unlike Adzuna."

Joel: Surprisingly, I got an email from Adzuna, which was a holiday e-card.

Chad: Me, too.

Joel: Yeah. We were added to the list.

Chad: I love it.

Joel: Not opted-in but, hell, whatever. I was half expecting to flip the card and get a middle finger or maybe a big pile of shit or something, but it was just a photo of the employees. So, thank you for adding us to the list.

Chad: Again, we totally love that, Doug coming back, interacting with us, just kind of throwing barbs every now and again. That's cool shit. We enjoy that. And so, yeah, Doug's on the holiday list. I mean, anybody who can take that kind of shit from us and come back and give us shit, I love it, good stuff.

Joel: Speaking of holiday lists, our Chad and Cheese holiday cards have been going out. We're getting some early feedback. One of my favorites was Susan Vitale, who totally got our stepbrothers themed postcard and replied on Twitter accordingly. Susan, as always, you're on top of your sense of humor and your pop culture and your meatheaded comedy. So, shoutout to you for that, and happy holidays to you and your baby and family.

Chad: Yeah. And I think for Susan, next year, you and I might

do a Golden Girls version. That would be awesome.

Joel: Yeah. A lot of stuff is on the table, man. We can do a Wham thing, like one of us in a Choose Life t-shirt. I mean, there's a lot of ways we can go with this.

Chad: Yeah, yeah. This is just beginning, people. Also, thanks to Josh, Quincy, and many others who sent us messages this week, and also the person who said that in the photo, the caricature, I look like white Obama. Well played, well played.

Joel: Dude, I laughed so hard when they were like, "I thought that was white Obama," and you were like, "Obama's a good-looking guy." I thought... Anyway, that's fine. James Ellis, again with some feedback, he found inspiration in the German Krumpus, which is something that I think eats children that are bad during Christmas. I'm not up on my German folklore, but leave it to James to throw eating children and connect it to our postcard. Thanks, James.

Chad: Yeah. I think it's Krampus, but I could be wrong.

Joel: Krumpus, Krampus, whatever.

Chad: Whatever it is. A big shoutout to Charu Malhotra and also Tabatha Ward. Thanks for connecting on LinkedIn and listening. And also remember, if you're a listener out there, feel free to reach out to us on LinkedIn, on Twitter, we even have a Chad and Cheese Facebook page, but overall it's very important that you subscribe first. Whether you're listening on iTunes or Google Podcast or Spotify or Crowdcast, whatever it might be, just go and subscribe and you'll get Chad and Cheese in your daily-

Joel: Sorry, kids, still no Chad and Cheese TikTok account. Maybe that's something we can look at in 2020.

Chad: Ooh, that's a good call. Big shoutout to Evergreen Podcast, baby.

Joel: Ow! Cleveland's own.

Chad: That's right, that's right. In January we will also be launching a new series of podcasts called Voices. Why? Because many of the people that are out there, who are influential, are also behind the scenes. We wanted to be able to raise them up and get some awareness to those individuals in our industry. So, look for the new series within the actual Chad and Cheese umbrella. Just subscribe at Chad and Cheese, and you'll notice new Voices podcasts that are actually series.

Joel: (singing)

Chad: 'Til Tuesday, baby.

Joel: Let's get to the news.

Chad: This one is pretty sad.

Joel: What is it? What, WTF, JWT, WT, NSW? I don't know what's going on here.

Chad: Yeah. RIP, so rest in peace to Wunderman Thompson Employ, also known as WT Employ, which was also known as JWT Inside for years, well-known in the industry. We were actually turned on to this by Steven Rothberg. He received an email and thought, "Wow, this is kind of weird shit." I hadn't heard from JWT in forever, and it's because they were actually merged with another organization and they created Wunderman Thompson.

Chad: Overall, I'd never heard of this organization or WT Employ, so when I heard that they were shutting down I was like, "So, what? I don't even know who the fuck these people are." Well, they're JWT Inside. I don't get it, overall. They were fairly prominent in our industry and they had a ton of services that they provided, again, to their clients, but it seems like they really don't want to focus on the employment sector. This is actually a quote from a high-ranking individual at WT Employ.

Chad: I pretty much ask, "Is this true, that you guys are shutting down?" The response was, "Unfortunately, yes. That is true. Our offering apparently doesn't align with Wunderman Thompson's new leadership vision." It's interesting because, as you and I talk to cult brands, everything they talk about is how the people inside the actual employment piece matters so much. But Wunderman Thompson, which is a big, flashy type of advertising company, that's not where their focus is going to be.

Joel: Yeah. You know, someone needs to write a book on the recruitment advertising industry because, you and I are old enough to sort of remember the days of how much they made on display ads in the newspaper and how the business was pretty much an order-taking business, it was a schmoozing business. Companies chose agencies based on how many lunches they got, how many special parties. I mean, there wasn't a lot of thought around what these business...

Joel: There wasn't a lot of creativity in terms of business. And then the internet came along and job postings became free to $100 a posting, and then agencies couldn't make the money. So then it was like, "Okay, well, let's be a tech company." So you saw firms launch their own ATSs and their own shit. Right? And then 2008 happened, the world ended, and then it was like, "Let's change our name. Let's change direction. What are we going to do? Let's get acquired or acquire."

Joel: And then now, you're in this weird place where some of the ones that have been around for a long time, you know, the shakers who are making smart decisions, and then others like JWT, the old days, changed to JWT Inside, now it's WT Employ, now it's going to be gone. But, the whole history of agencies is really fascinating. I think a lot of younger people that are listening have no context to where these things have gone in the last 20-25 years, but there's been a ton of disruption and chaos in the agency business.

Chad: This actually says something, right? When we see companies like TMP, Symphony, Shaker, Recruitics, you see these companies that are actually acquiring, thriving, building, I mean, this is the industry to be able to... not the industry. This is the economy to be able to build in this industry, but those organizations are all focused on the employment...

Chad: JWT Inside, which became WT Employ, did all the things that you would think that they would do, employment branding, experienced strategy, recruiter toolkits. I mean, there's so many things that they actually did but, I guess overall, in the grand scheme of things, from their quote/unquote, "leadership vision," the employment piece just doesn't play that big of a part, so it's dead.

Joel: Yeah, which is ironic to your point that employment and marketing in general are getting closer than they ever have been. And I think both of us agree that they will, at some point, unite in ways that they haven't in a long time. Maybe the timing is really bad to shut this thing down.

Chad: Yeah. And/or the leaders in that organization aren't focused on a holistic type of a brand for their clients. And maybe they will partner with a TMP or a Shaker or what have you, to be able to bring in that piece. Who knows? But if they're not going to have it, their clients are going to get it somewhere.

Joel: Yeah. So, you believe it'll be more holistic, where there's employment brand, we're just building an entire brand for the company and employment will be part of that.

Chad: Well, and that's the thing, is that I don't think it works that way. I think you definitely have to think of all experiences. And no matter whether the individual is coming to your career site or coming to buy something on your site, the interactions are different but yet they're the same. They should feel like the same. You should still feel like a customer and taken care of, if you're applying for a job.

Chad: I don't think that they're probably focused on that. They're probably focused on the bigger revenue items, as opposed to employment. Even though employment, I believe, is really the foundation of where all of this goes in the first place.

Joel: Well, WTF, WT Employ, RIP.

Chad: Bye-bye.

Joel: Colin Day, who is not going bye-bye is also in the news this week, for a video that he posted. What's up with that?

Chad: Colin, he's been doing these videos. I love seeing Colin out, representing the brand. I think as they talked about Colin stepping away from being CEO and being chairman, that he would actually have more time to do some of these types of things and really be an evangelist, more than anything else. Which is, you know, he deserves after the amount of time that he actually led the organization, to kind of step back and be that evangelist.

Chad: But anyway, he did a video he posted to LinkedIn. He focused on a couple of items. First and foremost, one of the things that we pounded away on one of our podcasts... right when we got back, I think, from Arizona, the iCIMS Influence Conference... was the average unfilled job costs an employer $680 per day. Say that again. The average unfilled job costs an employer $680 per day. If the chair is empty, that's costing the organization something. What is it? iCIMS was able to boil it down to $680 a day.

Chad: Go ahead and extrapolate that out to all of your positions, et cetera, et cetera, and you start to get an opportunity, I think, to go to the c-suite and say, "This is what we're losing on a daily basis because we don't have what we need to do our job." And overall, the broader economic scheme is $160 billion drag on the economy. Being able to push that kind of data out, right out of the gate, to be able to help employers, I think, become better storytellers is incredibly key.

Joel: Yep, for sure. I, in addition to that, love Colin pounding the table on the Google for Jobs issue. We've talked about that on the show as well. But, we get a lot of job board insight from people that we know, that traffic has plateaued or it's declining, the impending death of Google for Jobs. And, if you listen to Colin, it's a completely different story. I think his story is one that we should listen to, more so than job boards, because he's actually at ground zero of where companies want candidates to go and job seekers to go, which is their own career site.

Joel: The fact that he's seeing growth, gradual growth... I think one exit we said in the last podcast from the show... and Susan Vitale, a CMO, echoed this... was that Google for Jobs is just like this marching army on all the competition. Where Google for Jobs, last year, was maybe sixth in terms of traffic to company sites, it's now number three, I think. Would anyone be surprised if, next year, it's number two? Would anyone be surprised if, the year after that, it's number one now? That's what we're seeing from Google for Jobs.

Joel: So, when you get an ATS that's willing to put itself out there and give that information to the marketplace and say, "Indeed CEO be damned," because, if he calls me and says, "What the hell are you doing," I think that's great for the marketplace and great for companies, and good on Colin Day for putting his neck out there and having a voice. I think it's fantastic.

Chad: Yeah. I think on the Google for Jobs, I mean, we've already been through this story once before with Google and SEO. How do you rank better? How do you do this better? I think first and foremost, what you need to do is align yourself with vendors who give a shit. I mean, that's number one because, if you're with a applicant tracking system who literally just does not, they don't give a shit about whether jobs are on Google for Jobs, let alone whether they're ranking well, that's a problem. And so from that standpoint, obviously iCIMS gives a shit.

Chad: And then you take a look at smaller companies that start to focus on being able to help ranking. We actually had a Firing Squad with Jobiak, with Venkat from Jobiak. So I think that you're going to see companies like this start to gain steam because, you know as well as I do, talent acquisition professionals are hearing Google for Jobs for the first time, believe it or not, and they're saying, "What the fuck? How, first and foremost, do I get my jobs there?" And then the next question is going to be, "Okay. Well, my jobs are in there but I can't find them. How do I rank better?"

Chad: It's going to be something that actually matters because, a couple of different things. First off, it's Google. I mean, let's just put that out there. And number two, they're sick and fucking tired of Indeed. That's what it is. It's one of those opportunities to be able to get away from the dark arts of bullshit that you have to deal with, with Indeed.

Joel: Yeah. Typically, ATSs don't care until their clients make them care. Right? It wasn't until Jobs to Web and other services, DirectEmployers, their program, take our jobs and optimize them for Google, that ATSs finally said, "Okay, we need to do this ourselves. There doesn't need to be a layer in-between us and Google."

Joel: Hats off again to iCIMS for having the vision to say, "Look, we're not going to wait around for our customers to say, "Hey, get us on Google for Jobs," and get engaged with Google. They just went ahead and did, and they've been a leader in this space for a long time. Hats off to them. Ultimately, every ATS is going to have to say, "We need to be in Google for Jobs. What's the schema that we need to adhere to?"

Joel: iCIMS is kind of leading the way, and the Jobiak and companies like that are helping spearhead that movement, and that's all good for Google and good for employers, direct employers, especially good for ATSs. Not so good for job boards probably, in the long run, and not good for Indeed, but hell, the market is the market. You either adapt or die.

Chad: Agreed.

Joel: Well, speaking of adapting, Canvas, one of the top adapters in our marketplace, let's hear from them and we'll talk about some acquisitions and Golden Bees?

Amber Ferrari: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day.

Amber Ferrari: Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's Get ready to text at the speed of talent.

Chad: That's Amber Ferrari, everyone. And it's funny, I just checked my Twitter and Amber just got our card. She Tweeted it on Twitter. "Best card yet. Thanks for the holiday card, Chad and Joel. Here's to no coal for you, this year." And she took the picture, it seems like, out of their new offices possibly. Are they on the Circle in Indianapolis?

Joel: They are, yeah.

Chad: Oh, damn. That's good stuff. We also need to get up there and make sure that we get Aman, his trophy.

Joel: We're trying to schedule that. They've been kind of elusive. Hopefully, they'll listen to this podcast and-

Chad: They're busy.

Joel: Straight up. So, a quick real life story. I was on a call for Ratedly, my little side project, a solopreneur issue. The company I was talking to just purchased Jobvite as their ATS and Canvas was a major part of that decision, so good on Canvas, good on Jobvite. Apparently the integration is working.

Chad: Yeah. Well, again, it's one of those things where, if you have the features and you have the productivity tools that companies want and need, it just makes sense. Chatbots, texting, I mean, all the way through, programmatic, they're going to want to listen to you because that means they don't have to buy a shit-ton of other layers to try to integrate with your system, that should be integrated already.

Joel: Yep. And speaking of acquisitions and integrations, let's talk about acquisitions.

Chad: (singing) Yes. Acquisition out of France, people. Figaro Classifieds acquire Golden Bees. Okay. A shoutout to Eva Zils, over at and Nathan over at AIA for sending this our way. But, Figaro Classifieds, they acquired a majority stake in the programmatic job ad tech provider Golden Bees. Figaro is pretty much just like a sexy Craigslist. I mean, it's a classified system. It looks good. It's easy to navigate. And go figure, they have jobs.

Chad: It makes a lot of sense, especially knowing that Figaro Classifieds is part of the Figaro Group. It's a large media company with many print and online titles and, apparently, it's comparable to a company you might know, called Axel Springer, who owns StepStone, who bought Appcast.

Joel: The Germans.

Chad: Yes. The Germans are doing their thing with their online publications, their StepStones, their programmatic with Appcast, which we thought, I think was probably one of the best, if not biggest buys of the year, the acquisitions of the year. And then these guys, Figaro-

Joel: (singing)

Chad: ... goes in and they buy Golden Bees. Now, we've never heard of, I've never heard of Figaro or Golden Bees, but this seems like a play to try to stay at least in-step with the market in Axel Springer.

Joel: Sure. Is this five programmatics in the last quarter, I guess, of this year.

Chad: Yes. Yeah, five or six, jeez.

Joel: Jesus. Let's try the programmatic fucking advertising solution and get acquired next week.

Chad: Yeah. There's always one in Germany that we don't talk about. I think it's called Compana, or something like that, just because it was so small and we haven't heard of it, but I think there are six programmatic companies that have been bought, at least within the last five months.

Joel: Yeah. And I love that as you and I live this stuff, we get news every day, tips every day. We're on this all the time. I love it when something passes our desk, like, "Who the fuck are these guys," because it's such a big world and startups and companies are all over the place, and we can't even keep up with this shit. So, it's just really nice. Like Golden Bees, I was like, "What is that? Oh, programmatic. Okay, Figaro Classifieds. Okay, got it. Cool." That's always nice.

Joel: And it's nice to see the global impact of what we do and what we live every day get just more and more influential in people's lives. I think it's great.

Chad: Yeah, yeah. Well, in one of the statements they made, the company wanted to move toward performance-based advertising models. This is the thing, and this is what we talked about with StepStone hopefully being able to surge, at least in Germany, and then obviously break through those boundaries throughout all of Europe into what's already happening in the U.S., but to be able to really drive performance-based advertising throughout Europe and beyond, and then also hopefully start to catch up to what we're doing here in the U.S.

Joel: All the technology is not happening in the U.S. It's happening everywhere, and that's a great thing for everybody. Now we just need more robots in more countries to take over.

Chad: Yeah. All we need to do is, all we need are robot heads, 10 guys, everywhere.

Joel: That's right. All right, closer to home, another acquisition, HackerRank. Enjoyed our conversation with their CO, but they've made a really cool acquisition that really feeds well into their business in Mimir? Mimar? I don't know how to pronounce it.

Chad: Mimir.

Joel: Mimir, sure, let's go with that.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: So, Mimir is basically software for teachers who are teaching technology, engineering, development, all that good stuff. It's essentially a cradle-to-grave strategy where HackerRank takes these kids, or funnels them, to being students, to now being full-fledged developers, and now getting them into the workforce. I think we both agree this is a great acquisition and feeds really well into the funnel that HackerRank needs to keep their database full of functioning professionals, for clients to pay them money to get them into the door and into

their companies to employ.

Chad: Yeah. For those who don't know out there, HackerRank, and this is from their website, "The market-leading technical interview platform to identify and hire developers with the right skills." Now, we've known HackerRank as more of a practicing and coding for interviews, but they're really focused heavily now on trying to parlay that into getting these individuals pipelined into companies.

Chad: Now, Mimir, which I think Mimir, instead of having professors in the classroom, you could have a 10 guy head do this. Anyway, it provides the tools for instructor-

Joel: Again with the robots.

Chad: ... provides the tools for instructors to effectively teach computer science courses of any scale without... Pretty much, overall, it's great from a scalability standpoint. It has all of these courses involved in the actual platform, itself. So, here's the beautiful thing, as Joel had said, cradle-to-grave, they are working with an enormous amount of organizations of which UCLA, Purdue, Oregon State, Michigan State, working with corporations like Google. They have 15,000-20,000 students already using the platform.

Chad: This is pipelining. This is what pipelining is, people. When you actually take people who are doing what you need them to do, and you can pipeline them into your jobs, these are the types of organizations you need to get involved with. Now, let's say for instance, on the teaching side there are gaps, from a coding standpoint, or maybe languages or what have you. That's where you work with Mimir to be able to add those into their repertoire, right, into their course collection.

Chad: And, guess what? You start pipelining them through HackerRank into your fucking jobs. I mean, from my standpoint, it's great that a company like HackerRank, and I think Vivek, and I think what they're doing over there is just outstanding, but to be able to see something like this, I think, is fucking


Joel: Yep. Mimir had raised about $2.5 million in a Series A. It's safe to say this wasn't a crazy acquisition so, from an out-of-pocket expense, probably very reasonable. And what they'll get back from it is probably on the plus side. Overall, we really like this acquisition. And I think from what we know of Figaro and Golden Bees, that was probably a good acquisition as well.

Chad: Yes. When talked to Vivek, we talked to them a little bit about this. He said, "No, not right now, but it's something that we're looking at down the road," apparently, just a few months down the road. So, great job, Vivek, and big applause to the whole team over there.

Joel: Big applause. Speaking of acquisitions, and ones that should happen soon, let's get a word from JobAdX and we'll come back and talk some freelancing shit.

Chad: Oh, yeah.

JobAdX: So, how's the hiring going? Find those purple squirrels?

JobAdX: With applicant after applicant, it feels like I'm just getting further from hiring the right candidate. I've got tons of applications, but none of these candidates are even close to being the right fit. Volume is great and all, but my small team doesn't have the time to sift through hundreds of mismatched applications. I want more relevant candidates, not just more candidates.

JobAdX: Well, get this. JobAdX has been helping small to medium businesses get their job ads in front of targeted active job seekers by matching your jobs to a candidate based on their search behavior across a vast network of niche job sites and talent networks. And the best part, it's self-serve. No sales reps, no chatbots, no spend minimums. Just fill a form with your name, number of jobs, and a budget you're working with, and voila.

JobAdX: Your ads are now shown over a growing network of 150 job sites. Better yet, those company videos that showcase the value of being part of a small team can have a new home now, within your ads, helping you stand out and share your vision proactively. Wait, what was that?

JobAdX: Oh, I just signed up for self-serve with JobAdX. What were you talking about?

JobAdX: That fast, huh? Jumpstart your targeted recruitment with JobAdX today. Visit and click that Get Started Risk Free button. It's JobAdX, engage, attract, employ.

Joel: We have three interesting stories that came out this week on freelancing. I'm happy starting with whichever one you'd like.

Chad: I'd like to start with the high-paying ones, first.

Joel: Sure.

Chad: CNBC actually put out the highest paying freelance jobs of 2020, where you can earn $90,000 or more. MBO Partners actually put out a study, and more than half of full-time independent workers say that they feel more financially secure in their current roles than they did with traditional jobs. We're talking about freelancers, here.

Chad: And, they listed some of these jobs, which is interesting because you never thought corporate law would be a freelancing job, right, but it is. Corporate law, contract law, management consulting, ERP, CRM, software... that made sense... data visualization, machine learning, the deep learning, all that fun stuff that we talked about, especially around AI. Here's one that I thought was crazy, presentations.

Joel: I was going to mention that. Yeah.

Chad: Presentation designer and writer, hourly rate, $50 and hour, annual rate prospectively $100,000 a year.

Joel: Yeah. What caught my imagination on this was that, yeah, you have sort of the high level stuff, AI, data shit, stuff that a lot of people feel is out of reach, but you had a good amount of stuff, presentation designer, I think there was email automation, marketing support, stuff that you don't have to be a genius to be able to do and make good money at. I think that that was what stood out to me, was freelancing is moving from high level programming stuff to just about anything.

Joel: If I am someone looking to make extra money, or even, "What are my career choices, moving forward," I think that the freelancing route is opening itself up to just about everyone. That alone is pretty exciting. It creates tremendous challenges for full-time employers and how they interact and engage with freelancers and contractors and full=time employees, and how that all works out. But it's clear, this is where the world is going and companies need to adapt if they're going to thrive.

Chad: So, there's a resumes and cover letters job category. Sample careers is, professional development writer, career coach, cover letter and LinkedIn support. So, Tim Sackett can get on the career coach bandwagon and knock us out.

Joel: There you go.

Chad: About $90,000. I mean, it's interesting to see, as you had said, just the span and type of positions that are available out there, to be able to help people.

Joel: Yeah. I think that the major hurdle for most people is healthcare, and the inability to get that. If that hurdle ever goes away and we either have universal healthcare or whatever that looks like, I think the world becomes very interesting and amenity to want to be freelancing goes through the roof. Because, like you said, I could freelance and have 10 clients that I'm getting $500 from a month, versus one employer where, if they let me go, I'm out of a job. Right?

Joel: I can work on 10 different projects, 10 different companies, 10 different things. That, to me, is a lot more appealing. It's the healthcare issue that I think is really stopping a lot of people from diving headfirst into a freelance nation.

Chad: Yeah. No, it is, and it is stifling innovation. If people actually had an opportunity to step back, away from their job that they hate, and they got to do something that they loved, yes. Would there be a bunch of failures? There's no question. But, out of those failures, would there be innovation born? Of course, and I think that's one of the problems, that we are still living in a system that was built decades, shit, a century possibly, ago.

Joel: Sure, Industrial Revolution. Yeah.

Chad: We need to think fashion-forward and what is better for people. When Japan has a four-day work week and they see more productivity out of that, is that a long-term scheme? I don't know. These are the kinds of conversations that we should have, so that we understand that we don't live to work, you know, we work to live.

Joel: Yeah. And I think that could segue nicely into the California law, right, that we've talked about, and treating freelancers or contract folks as full-time employees. Uber's at the forefront of this, and we'll talk about their Uber Works initiative, as well. But, I think there's good intentions in government saying, "Well, these folks need full-time benefits and they need to be treated as full-time employees, but we are starting to see stories out of California where freelancers are having work dry up because companies just say, "Fuck it," and "We're not going to deal with it."

Joel: I'm not saying that's every freelancer and every company, but we're definitely going to see growing pains as we legislate some of this stuff. And at least in this case, another story from CNBC was, this freelancer was starting to see jobs dry up for the simple fact that companies had to treat him differently than a contractor.

Chad: Yeah. I think as companies look for loopholes on how to do things cheaper, how they can get things done faster, these are going to be the growing pains that we have to deal with, especially when it comes to protecting employees. And if they're not seen as, quote/unquote, "employees," there's no protection around that. That's just total bullshit. We have to actually take a different look and different measures in how people are actually treated from dollars, cents, flexibility, and benefits.

Chad: Like, we were just talking about universal healthcare. I mean, is that something that a company should be bestowing up on their employees, or is that something that everybody should have? I mean, I think it's fairly easy. Everybody should have healthcare. That just makes a more healthy society.

Joel: Yeah. I don't think this law happens if people have healthcare, because I don't think freelancers are clamoring for benefits if they have healthcare. How many people stay at their company for healthcare?

Chad: Well, and we could call that a ball-and-chain, too.

Joel: Well, going back to Uber, they're trying to make money. And so, there's a story out as well, they'll have their opening... This actually came out today. They're going to be aggressively going after Uber Works in Florida in the coming months, which kind of makes sense. Florida is probably not going to have legislation for full-time employees. You have the Super Bowl dropping in February, so it's a good time to get freelance work that way.

Joel: But this goes beyond driving a car, to your service industries, your people that don't necessarily drive around to help service folks. And this sort of goes to the whole theory of... Amazon used to be a book company. Right? You thought of them only as books. As Uber tries to grow into more revenue opportunities, I think they're hoping that they go from being a car service to being an entire work platform, which would be interesting. Certainly, they'd have a competitive advantage, just by brand and by, I guess, scale. What do you think about this move to Florida and kind of amping up their Uber Works initiative?

Chad: I think it's interesting because Uber Works, at least what we've learned thus far, it's not a platform like Uber, from the standpoint of, you can't go in there and actually find people. It has to be facilitated through a partnership with a staffing company. That is one of the layers that Uber wants to get away from, is being able to point at these people and say, "Oh, they're employees." Right?

Chad: Now, in Florida, I don't think that's currently a problem, but long-term it's going to be a problem, which is one of the reasons why they're looking to partner with staffing companies. So, I'm really interested to see how this model matures. Even if it does, I think it could because smaller staffing companies don't have the resources and/or budget to be able to build infrastructure like the Uber app or any of the Uber technology. Will they actually buy into it? Or, will a model come around and actually win the day?

Joel: Yeah. It'll definitely be interesting. I think we both agree that, as long as they don't get rid of the scooters, we're okay with whatever happens.

Chad: That's right. You leave those jump scooters alone. And Lyft, I love the Lyft scooters, too.

Joel: And potentially die is a good thing. Yeah.

Chad: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a thing, too.

Joel: But, yeah, freelancing shit, it's all the rage.

Chad: We out.

Joel: We out.

Walken: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? The podcast. The Chad, The Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology but, most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And, not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss, so many cheeses, and not one word. It's so weird.

Walken: Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And, while you're at it, visit Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

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