Tim Sackett steps in for a napping Joel during this week's podcast. Chad & Tim talk about ...
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Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast.
Chad: You know it, kids. Welcome to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Today we'll be talking about new Glassdoor Who Dis? Bullhorn says, "Show me the motherfucking money." Canada is kicking the US's ass, and we're not talking about hockey here, kids. And Chipotle has kids rolling burritos for entirely too long, all after a word from Canvas.
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Chad: All right, kids, we have a surprise for you today back by a demand. I think like three people said they wanted to have Tim Sackett back on the show. So guess what, people? Tim Sackett.
Tim: Yes. Everybody wants a little bit more of Tim. That's the name of my autobiography coming out in late 2020: A Little Bit More of Tim.
Chad: A little bit more of Sackadomus. Joel just, let me through this out here real quick, he'll be back soon. Don't worry. But if you haven't listened to the 2020 prediction show, listen to it. Myself, Joel, and Tim, we predict the future, and we're really fucking-
Tim: Good times.
Chad: ... bad at it.
Tim: I don't know. I think one of mine almost came true. I don't know. We'll make them true.
Chad: Jason Roberts, who used to be the tech dude over at Randstad Sourceright, which, I mean, that's pretty much where all their technology, their big stack stuff comes out of the RPO anyway, he said that we actually got right Google without Pace Indeed. That was a roll-up. I mean, there was a roll-up of Google organic and Google for jobs. So we'll take that one as what I would like to call a win. Thank you very much. That's my thought early on.
Chad: Let's go ahead. We're going to jump into some shout-outs. While I'm going through these, I'm going to try to rip through them real quick, you think of some people that you would like to give some shout-outs to. First shout-out, and, again, all these people are either doing one or two things. They're engaging with us on social media, behind the scenes and LinkedIn Messenger, connecting with us, whatever it is. But Stacey Dunn-Emke loves the show. She owns a couple of job boards: nutrition jobs and exercise jobs. Have you ever been to a job board that is like that niche?
Tim: Have I?
Tim: Just searching midget porn. No, I haven't.
Tim: Yeah, no.
Chad: I would assume that would make, especially when it comes to SEO and trying to get maybe personal trainers and shit and managers of these facilities, that would be great. I don't know. Stacey, you're going to have to let us know-
Tim: Yes, all in the SEO.
Chad: ... what the scoop is. Julianne Knapp, Recruitment Tech Manager and loyal listener over at Nielsen, so I don't want to know what our ratings is, so just kind of keep that to yourself, Julianne. Gregory Raymond from Jobrapido over in Milan. Do you remember when Jobrapido first came out?
Tim: I don't.
Chad: It's like the Indeed for everything else because Indeed was very US-centric. So this was a long time ago. And I was the VP over at DirectEmployers, and every company would come to us for corporate content because we pretty much indexed the entire web when it came to just core corporate content, worked with applicant tracking systems.
Chad: And Jobrapido came and it was one of the bigger names outside of the US for so long and we had so much traffic from those guys. He's actually listening in from Milan, Italy. He's a new listener catching up on the pod. Binge, baby, binge. That's all I've got to say.
Chad: Paul Drake, Head of Business Development over at Talent Funnel in Oxford in the UK, he's a big fan of the show, definitely our drunken Recfest bit. And I think I look back on it, and it's one of those things where I constantly nitpick all the shit that we do, but I don't know if there's a better way to close... You were at Recfest.
Chad: I don't know if there's a better way to close Recfest. What do you think?
Tim: No. I try to tell people, if you're going to hit one conference in the entire year, you have to go to London. In recruiting and talent acquisition, you have to go over to London. You have to check out Recfest. Holy crap, it is a party. It's fun. At the same time, it's still great content. There's great content throughout the entire day, but just it's unlike anything I've ever been to.
Chad: Yeah. Well, and it was funny because Jamie came, and he's like, "Okay, we have this slot at the end of the day." I'm like, "Jamie, you open the bars at noon, everybody's going to be drunk." "Oh, okay. Well, that's right on brand for us," which means we want whiskey on the stage. And we talked about T-shirts. They actually printed 50 Recfest Chad and Cheese T-shirts.
Tim: People were losing their minds for those shirts.
Chad: It was fucking ridiculous and fun at the same time. But Paul Drake over at Talent Funnel, obviously he had a great drunken time himself. Mitchell Davis over in Germany, he does recruitment for autonomous, intelligent driving. Dude is in recruiting, number one, but for autonomous intelligent driving.
Tim: Connect with me, buddy, because I got some needs right now with
some US auto makers trying to find some of those autonomous engineers.
Chad: No shit. Shout-out. This actually goes with the Recfest shout-out to Tim Sackett for giving my wife the shirt off his back. So Tim comes on the stage. And I think he's really just pandering to the crowd. I mean, it's fairly simple. Everybody fucking hates Trump. He has a Fuck Trump shirt on. My wife goes crazy.
Tim: Literally, were almost ripping it off me.
Chad: My wife goes crazy.
Tim: And not in a way that they're upset, but people wanted it. They kept asking me, "Can I have your shirt? Can I have your shirt?" I've never had so many people at once ask me for my shirt.
Chad: Shout-out to Jim Stroud. You know this cat, right?
Tim: Yeah, really well.
Chad: So he launched a new series, a podcast series called The Retro Lounge, and it is fucking awesome. And let me tell you, it's retro because the newest episode is a throwback from when he was doing a podcast in 2008. This one's called Sex at the Office: Is it a Wonderful Thing? So if you're not subscribed, The Jim Stroud Podcast, do yourself a favor and do it.
Chad: He's got great new stuff. It's almost like a black mirror kind of recruiting episode of technology. But then he does this retro lounge shit that is so fucking spot on. It's awesome.
Tim: Jim is a quirky, wonderful person. He's so smart. He gives so much to the community, especially in recruiting. The dude is awesome.
Chad: It's just, it's amazing. And giving back to community, I want to talk about this symphony talent thing, this exhibit that they did on the West Coast. Now, you heard about it. You didn't see it. I didn't actually see it.
Tim: I haven't seen it, yeah.
Chad: But I saw... Okay, so the exhibit is where you can go through the hiring process in the shoes of a candidate. It's an exhibit. And the candidate experience starts with a step. But it's what follows that matters. Gina Alioto, I think is what you say, the VP of Marketing at Symphony Talent was the go-to person on this one.
Chad: When I first saw the exhibit, well, I saw it on paper, and I immediately thought, "Oh shit, this is could be fucking awesome, but more than likely it is going to fall flat on its fucking face because trying to get like a real-world experience into like an exhibit, like a walk-through exhibit-
Tim: I tell you, the one piece of it, though, that I think is really going to hit home with people is when they fall into that 50-foot hole, the black hole, and hit the bottom. I think they'll realize at that point it becomes real.
Chad: Dude, I saw a quick video and also some responses back and forth from actual attendees. And they were blown away. And I actually got a quote from Gena. She said, "Everyone really appreciates how we took something that was a buzzword, overwhelming, and intimidating, and transformed it into something that was approachable and a fun experience."
Chad: And I agree. I think this is a big win or a big lose type of scenario. And I think from Symphony Talent's standpoint, them doing something that nobody else is doing right now in an interactive kind of this is why the process is fucked up or why it's great, this is exactly what we need in this industry. So when it comes to Symphony Talent and spending a shit ton of cash creating that exhibit for an event, I'm hoping they had some other events.
Tim: Chad, you got to spend money to make money.
Chad: That's what I hear. That's what I here. That's all we do here at the Chad and Cheese Podcast: spend money and take naps. So that's it for shout-outs. Do you have anybody you want to shout-out to?
Tim: Actually, Jim McCoy. He's a chief revenue officer over a Scout Exchange, goscoutgo. In Boston, I'm actually meeting with them next week. And we were talking on a phone call. And he was like, "I heard the show. I heard the Sackadomus show. That was awesome." So, I mean, it just shows the reach of what you guys are doing.
Chad: Goscoutgo, big listeners of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Event: So first and foremost, we're go be in Banff at the gathering. This is happening again.
Tim: I hate you guys. I wanted to go. I said that. Yeah, last year I said you guys went and I wanted to go. No one even reached out.
Chad: Dude, this is in a castle at the base of the Canadian Rocky Mountains in February, which means they're going to be snow-covered, there's no question. Rated by Forbes two years in a row as a must-attend business summit. I am blown away first and foremost by the event when we went last year. And I'm really excited to be able to go back and to be on stage. So we're really excited to start kind of like that series of conversations. We'll be doing it in Banff. We'll be doing it at Transform in Boston and in a couple of other events this year, so pretty excited about that.
Tim: Yeah, Allyn Bailey's one of... Intel's one of my favorite people in the world. She is just genuine as can be and just awesome, and just digs the space. And-
Chad: If you haven't gotten your tickets and you're in employer brand, or recruitment marketing, or you're with one of these recruitment ad agencies and you're not going, okay, go to your browser right now, cultgathering.com. Buy a fucking ticket. If you miss this, that's on you.
Chad: Next, UNLEASH and TAtech are putting together their brands to have what they're calling a mega conference in London in March. Do you go out to the TAtech at all? Are you a part of those at all?
Tim: I have attended in the past. I haven't recently.
Chad: Back in the day, it used to be pretty much the job boards.
Tim: Job board guys.
Chad: Yeah, the job board conference. That's what it was, the IA, the International Association of Employment Websites—worst acronym ever, switched over to TAtech because they saw that obviously this was transforming into much more than a job board industry. So I think there are probably more chat bot companies at TAtech than there are job board companies today.
Chad: So you're seeing the tech change more matching companies, those types of things. So it's a pretty awesome event, not to mention you couple it with UNLEASH, which I love. We'll be out there in March. If you want to check it out, go to TAtech.org and unleashgroup.io.
Chad: Where you going?
Tim: I'm going to SHRM Talent. I'll be speaking there. People always ask me, "What's your favorite conferences?" Of course I love the HR Tech Conference because it's just a conglomerate of everybody in the industry there at one time in Vegas. So that's a awesome. I like SHRM Talent because it's actually corporate talent acquisition people.
Tim: I think my room last year was like 850 people, and 99% of the people, it was a packed room, had a corporate talent acquisition title. And it's people from enterprise down to SMB, people that are in the weeds, like literally you can feel the pain in the room as they're trying to figure out stuff. So those are my people. I love talking shop with all of them. And then I'm also hitting Hiring Success, the SmartRecruiters Conference, which is, again, a who's-
Chad: Oh yeah. San Francisco, right?
Tim: Yeah. Who's who of TA thought leaders and people that'll be out there. So I really like that. And then they just have... I mean, their tech is really good. So I enjoy... And their CEO Jerome is one of the sharper dudes to be around and talk job with. So he's awesome.
Chad: Yeah, he's pretty awesome. Joel is going to be out there in San Francisco. I might pop my head in. I don't know.
Tim: Stay in the hotel and getting your nails done, stuff like that?
Chad: Yeah, that's a possibility. Now, I mean, I might come. I'm just not going to come as a podcaster. I'm taking a break until Banff.
Chad: Okay, dude, so it's time for topics. Are you ready?
Tim: Let's do it.
Chad: Okay. Give me a second. I got to go... There we go. Okay, so the first topic, you weren't really that interested in because you feel like it's happening all over the fucking place. People are just now getting caught for it. But Chipotle is fined $1.4 million in vast child labor case cited by, this is in the article of New York Times, "Massachusetts said Chipotle lets teenagers work too many hours per week and too late on school nights. The chain settled without admitting to the estimated 13,000 violations." I reached out to Chipotle because we just had these guys on the fucking show like less-
Chad: ... two weeks ago or something.
Tim: You guys are like the SI curse, you know?
Chad: No. So I reached out and generally we don't get responses from companies. When this kind of shit happens, you don't get a response unless they kick you to PR, and then PR gives you a response. But Joe-
Tim: They have to give you guys a response or Joel just makes shit up.
Chad: Well, yeah. But Joe Albano, who was on the show, Manager of National Field Recruiting at Chipotle sent this statement: "We took our people, culture seriously. And we're committed to insuring that our restaurants are in full compliance with all the laws and regulations we have diligently worked over the past year with the Massachusetts leaders to ensure our systems are updated to support our growth and that we are in compliance with minor employment and wage and hour laws as part of the settlement for violations dating back to 2015.
Chad: "We have agreed to donate half a million dollars for the education and enforcement oversight related to child labor laws for training and skills development of young workers and to assist Massachusetts youth. We are committed"-
Chad: Give me a second. "We are committed to the welfare of all of our employees and are proud of our industry-leading benefits," which they do have. "Chipotle's industry-leading benefits for all team members, including debt-free degrees, tuition reimbursement up to $5,250 per year, access to mental health care, financial planning tools, and the opportunity for quarterly bonuses, including crew members up to months' worth in pay per year, and paid sick leave, et cetera."
Chad: So that's a long... First off, it's like, "Yeah, we're sorry. This shit's fixed. It was back to 2015. We have a new CEO. We're fixing shit. But you got to remember we do all this really good stuff."
Tim: This entire concept is bullshit, and not Chipotle. Chipotle is trying to do the right thing, and they're fixing their stuff. Good for them. But this is happening everywhere at every level. And it's a victimless crime for the most part. Here's what was really being set was you're forcing these kids to work. No, the vast majority actually want the hours, want to work because they want the cash. They got to pay for their cellphone. They want the new gear. They want the new easies.
Chad: But they got to pay for college, dude.
Tim: Got to pay for college. I have a niece who's 17 working at Starbucks. Guaranteed she's working more hours than she should because I talked to her parents, and they constantly are freaking out about her getting her studies done and her working too late on a weeknight, blah, blah, blah. And then I see her hours, and I know the basic kind of labor laws and go, "For sure they're breaking it."
Tim: But I've also ran HR for Applebee's, and we constantly were breaking them because you know about it, but you don't know. It's like don't tell, don't see, don't whatever.
Chad: You don't have the workforce to be able to fill.
Tim: Yeah, and then $1.5 million that Chipotle paid was way less than the overtime they would've had to pay to actually not break the law. And so it's like they're like, "Okay, whatever."
Chad: And over $2 million, okay, and we'll talk about the semantics here in a minute, but in Q3 of last year, they made $1.4 billion. So that's how you put it into... and in a quarter, $1.4 billion, and over since 2015, $1.4 million.
Tim: .0... yeah.
Chad: So here's the thing: This feels like a really interesting kind of a way for Massachusetts because they also hit Qdoba for like a half million dollars before this. But Massachusetts has found its way to start raking in cash because they can see that there's no way that these organizations can do the job, can actually stay open because they don't have the workforce to be able to get it done, right?
Chad: And let's talk about the kids here. I have a 16-, 18-, and 20-year-old kid. 18, she just turned 18, so but she still feels 17 to me. Shit, she still feels 13 to me. Anyway, two out of the three are preparing their bank accounts for college. One wants to join the Air Force, so she's out.
Tim: She's a smart one, yeah.
Chad: Yeah. Anyway, do you know what college costs today? These kids aren't making Nikes and Apple phones for $2 an hour in a sweatshop in fucking China, they're rolling fucking burritos, right?
Chad: Plus, let's talk about the economy. I mean, how many of these kids are also helping out with the bills at home? Mom's already paying... She's already doing two to three jobs with the fucking side hustle, so overall this is not... And, again, Chipotle was on the show. I'm not defending Chipotle, I'm defending all of the organizations that are out there and saying, "Look, this is a symptom of a much larger fucking problem." This is a math problem.
Tim: Yeah. This is a government generation issue. This is just a way for... The government went after Chipotle because they knew Chipotle would pay. Guess who they're not going after? The mom and pop diner down the street that's actually breaking the exact same law because they know they'll sue them, they'll go out of business, and they won't pay.
Tim: And so it's just it's all contrived. I just think it's the worst thing in the world. We should be focusing on other things than going after fake child labor issues.
Chad: If I'm a parent and my kid is working too many hours and they're not getting their schoolwork done, guess what? They stop working the fucking hours. And if I have to cause a store manager, guess what? I'll walk in the fucking store. So overall let's just go ahead, and I'm not saying this was all on the parents. This is a shared responsibility that's happening here. But overall, do the fucking math.
Chad: If there are all these low-paying jobs that are opening, and that's what's bolstering this... I shouldn't say bolstering the economy. But when we see all the jobs that are being created, there are these types of jobs. They're not the middle-wage-earner or high-wage-earner type of jobs, they're these types of fucking jobs. If our economy is doing nothing but building these types of jobs, who the fuck is going to fill them, not to mention we'll talk immigration later.
Tim: Maybe we should lower the age of working. Maybe instead of 16, you should be able to work at a McDonald's at 14. Again, I get really pissed off if I have to wait 15 minutes at Tropical Smoothie for my Mango Morning Sunshine. I would rather a 14-year-old learn how to use a blender and make my goddamn smoothie.
Chad: Hell, I went to Austin a couple of times this year. And every time I stop, there's a coffee machine right there. It's a robotic coffee machine, makes wonderful coffee. Boom. Got it. I don't have to wait in a Starbucks line.
Tim: There's a little man bun on top of the vending machine. It's awesome. You love it. It's awesome.
Chad: Okay. Let's move on. We've got the new bullhorn survey. It's the 2020 Global Recruitment Insights and Data. It sounds really formal. Did you get a chance to look this over? Did you see anything that really kind of jumped out at you?
Tim: Yeah. No, I did. I mean, one is they have a huge obviously data set with everyone that's using Bullhorn there, obviously have a really big footprint. Again, it's the recessionary stuff of, guess what? Recruiters are coming to their clients and going, "You got to pay more money if you want to get people." Turns out-
Tim: Chad, I can tell you at least two to three times a week we'll have so many contacts and say, "Tim, gosh, we want to work with you. Oh my gosh, you guys are a great company! Recruiting: Uh." And then they'll go, "Here, we want you to find a Java developer for 13 cents an hour," whatever. They're so far under market that I have to go to them and say, "You know what? I thank you, but we're not going to do the search." And they're literally taken aback. They're, "How could you not want this? We're trying to give you money." I'm like, "No, you're trying to give me work that I'll never be able to find." I'm like, "How long have you been looking?" "A year." "So you couldn't find it for a year, but somehow magically I'm going to find it because you're paying so far under market."
Tim: And then here's the real issue: They're trying to find somebody on the outside market. And they're like, "We can't pay $150,000 a year because the five people in that job internally are only making $110,000, and if we pay somebody else $150,000, then we have to raise them up. Yeah, it turns out that's how compensation works.
Chad: Yeah, and what Tim's referring to here is 77% of global recruitment firms say that employers—their clients—must accelerate worker pay increases in order to compete for qualified candidates in 2020. Not only are they going to have to do that, but also exactly what you were saying. That person that's getting paid $110,000 more than likely is going to get pulled out of that company by somebody else who's going to pay him $125,000, $140,000.
Chad: So the thing is, as we as corporations, let's say, overall, we are making record-high profits. Where the fuck are you putting that money? You need to put it back in your fucking people, not just to keep them. Yes, that helps, right?
Chad: Not just to attract them. Yes, that helps. But it also ensures that you don't have all this nonfairness that's happening within the organization. where people feel like, "Well, fuck, so-and-so I know is getting paid this, that, and the other thing." We need to be more transparent and give those people money so that they can spend it in the fucking economy.
Tim: Yeah, pay equality, pay equity, we know. I mean, it's been an issue forever, and it continues to be an issue. And mainly I think it's because of that, right? It's because are desperate for talent, so they're going out there. They're making some awful decisions in terms of saying, "Oh, I'm going to pay somebody coming in to what I have to pay to get them." And if they're not making the adjustments on the back end, which just causes more inequality and equity issues in the organization.
Chad: Short-term decision for a long-term problem.
Chad: And that's what we're so good at humans doing. And in talent acquisition and HR, when a company says, "Well, we don't have the money to be able to provide for a $150,000 developer," okay, so how much does it cost for that seat to be open? If you're in talent acquisition and you don't know what that number is, you have to know what it's actually costing the organization because you can go back because these are business numbers, people. This impacts the bottom line. This engineer, I have five engineering positions open. It costs x per day. Extrapolate that out over whatever the general hiring time is, and then demonstrate that. Show it. Be able to try to focus on bringing that time down, not to mention also retaining individuals in your organization so you don't have to do this fucking loopty-loop shit.
Tim: I got to tell you, I'm just so energized right now by two middle-aged white guys talking about pay equity. It just is amazing. I mean, it's like, wow, this is 2020, motherfuckers.
Chad: I have two girls, and then they are white females. So they're getting paid I think on the pay scale closer to white men than the rest, right? But overall, this is bullshit. The reason why we don't have equity is because of lack of transparency.
Tim: Yeah. I do think it's difficult. I will say this.
Chad: It's difficult, yeah, but we can fucking do it.
Tim: Well, no because I think the difficulty is understanding that most people have... I mean, you and I think intelligent people understand there's going to be a difference between what a CEO makes and what an accountant makes within organizations. But when they see the actual difference, most people can't wrap our heads around that, right? Like, you get like, "Wait a minute. So they're making 1,500 times more? I don't..."
Tim: And there's where the transparency piece starts to fall down because I don't know if it actually lends itself to a better culture because what you tend is then you get this infighting constant measuring yourself against the next person from that standpoint. So there's kinds of transparencies that might help. I don't know if full transparency helps in terms of compensation, but-
Chad: This goes into a much grander conversation around wealth, wealth imparity. We're already fucked up when it comes to that, and we need to change it that. But overall, I thought some of the other pieces in this survey that it's cited that 49% cited that skills gap is an issue while 74% of the recruiters also said reskilling is effective against skill shortages. Yeah, no shit. I mean, you're saying that these people don't have the skills. Then you give them the skills. And it's effective. No shit. Although 47%, nearly half say that, well, their reskilling efforts will actually increase in 2020. I should say less than half.
Tim: 53% are saying, "Yeah, we don't really need to reskill. It's kind of a waste." If you had to think of, though, the data set of a Bullhorn, it's going to be mostly staffing firms. Staffing firms really don't have an impact on reskilling. Most of what they have an impact on is I'm going to show you a candidate that has the skills you want because that's what you asked for. So it could be something on the data.
Chad: That's total bullshit. You could manufacture talent.
Tim: Staffing firms don't really manufacture talent.
Chad: You got to spend money to make money.
Tim: I'm not saying we should.
Chad: Think of it from this standpoint. And you're thinking the old model. Old model is we go find people. Right? Fuck that. Manufacture them. You give them the skills and you sell them at a larger margin. You know that's exactly what should be happening. If those big brands can't build talent pipelines themselves because they can't get out of there goddamn way, they're going to come to you.
Tim: It's cheaper and easier to steal talent, from the recruiting standpoint.