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2022 Best Podcast Award
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Beamery, Lattice, and Netflix Dumpster Fires


The boys are back, baby! The holidays are over, Chad's stateside again and predictions are in the can. That means we're back to business-as-usual, which means we're talkin' news out of Indeed, Netflix, ChatGPT, Deel and even CareerBuilder (kinda). You want more? How about layoffs at a handful of unicorns and start-ups in our space, like Beamery, Lattice, Oyster, Remote and more? If it bleeds, it leads, so you don't want to miss this Big Gulp of Chad & Cheese snarky-filled goodness.


TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level.


Intro 1: Hide your kids, lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast.


[music]


Joel: Oh, yeah. Tiger King's Carol Baskin says her husband is alive. Ron Jeremy only looks dead. And Coach Kliff Kingsbury is living the life we all want to live. Hey, boys and girls, you're listening to the Chad & Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel Hedgehog Cheeseman.


Chad: Chad, that ain't whiskey, that's syrup.


Joel: So and on this week's show.


Joel: Layoffs. Netflix finds the G-spot and Career builders Irina is back, baby. Let's do this.


Joel: What's up, dude.


Chad: Oh. Getting used to this whole American thing again.


Joel: Yeah, great time to come back to the Midwest, January.


Chad: It's actually nice.


Joel: It is pretty nice.


Chad: I brought the weather with me. You're welcome.


Joel: Yeah, the cold fronts coming though. Don't worry.


Chad: Damn it.


Joel: I got a question for you. You're sort of a fight guy. You've sparred before. Have you seen this slap competition?


Chad: Yes.


Joel: Where these guys just slap the shit out of each other, and then you either pass out or you tap out?


Chad: Yeah.


Joel: And have you seen the most recent? This dude's head is swollen, like he's got a bowling ball...


Chad: No.


Joel: Tumor on head.


Chad: Damn!


Joel: Anyway, it's all over social media. I apparently have an algorithm that's different than yours, online. But this sport is crazy and this guy, you'll see him eventually. His head is swollen. He ends up winning the championship, this is a Vegas competition. Guess how much he won for being the champion, like the worldwide champion of slap, whatever this thing is called?


Chad: In getting slapped like...


Joel: Brain damage is for sure.


Chad: $100,000 maybe.


Joel: $5000.


Chad: Is that it? [laughter]


Joel: He won $5000 to have brain damage in five years, it's a crazy sport but there you go.


Chad: What idiots. Idiots. Yeah, anyway.


Joel: There you go. Let's get to shout out.


Chad: Shout out shout outs, I get the first one. I get the first one, I already started it with my name. So got this amazing whiskey, Canadian maple whiskey from Voila, our friends over at Voila.


Joel: They're the Quebec que be qua company.


Chad: Quebec yeah, so I poured myself a glass and I started drinking it and it was so sweet... I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it, and then I gave it to Julie, who usually likes sweet drinks. She couldn't do it. So I looked at it and I was like, You know what, I just actually had some Blanton's maple syrup, bourbon maple syrup on my pancakes.


Joel: Delicious.


Chad: I'm gonna boil all this down and I'm gonna boil it down into a syrup. And that's what I did. So this weekend, I will be using that, thank you, Voila, on my waffles, my Saturday morning waffles.


Joel: Voila. Well, you know, Chad, when you boil down the whiskey, you know what time it is.


Speaker 4: It's Corona time. Corona time right now.


[laughter]


Joel: That's right baby. You gotta go to the Corona when the whisky gets boiled down. Alright, my first shout out goes to Polywork the LinkedIn killer that appeals to the kids apparently, and which I still hate is up for product hunts, Product of the Year. The compilation includes ChatGPT, BeReal, that's the social media where kids take pictures within two minutes, Lindsay AI, the magic avatars that we're all seeing on social media, and Dall E, the AI generated picture, so if I say, draw a cat on a rainbow, on a shark, whatever it draws it. So good luck winning Polywork against that competition, but I think the fact that Polywork is even mentioned amongst those companies, is pretty...


Chad: Pretty legit.


Joel: Pretty good company. So for me, I still hate the company but that, that's worth a big applause in my book.


Chad: I have to say, when we first started talking about Polywork, literally there was no engagement in that platform, and I created a profile, all that other fun stuff. I've been getting engaged by Polywork in around the podcast side of the house, and it's actually working pretty well.


Joel: Are you an active user? In Polywork?


Chad: I guess you could say I'm an active user, so it actually, yeah, it works a hell of a lot better than it did, obviously, when it first came out, so they must have listened to the podcast, that's all I can say.


Joel: [laughter] Clearly, their nomination is somewhat connected to the bashing that we give them on this show.


Chad: Of course. Of course, of course. My next shout out is to Mike Burton. Who's Mike Burton?


Joel: Who the hell is Mike Burton?


Chad: Well, Burton is a 37-year-old who's based in Houston and works full-time writing original raps for individuals and businesses on Fiverr, he works 40 to 45 hours per week, and usually brings in about seven to $8000 per month.


Joel: Oh my god. [laughter]


Chad: So baby, the hustle is real. The hustle is real. Shout out to Mike Burton. And for all those people that are out there saying the hustle is dead. No, Mike Burton demonstrates the hustle is not dead.


Joel: That escalated quickly, 37-year-old writing rap lyrics.


Chad: Yeah. Rap lyrics, yeah.


Joel: And making 100 grand a year, let's call it. That's insane.


Chad: That's great. You don't have to only be on OnlyFans to make that kinda cash, that's the message kids.


Joel: There's hope for the old white guys just write some rap lyrics for the kids.


Chad: He's not a white dude, but which probably gives him more cred.


Joel: Oh my God. Alright, not nearly as exciting as that, my shout out goes out to Deel, that's D-E-E-L. Chad, one of our favorite unicorns from 22, or at least they used to be, not sure if they still are a global hiring platform. Deel has acquired Capbase. Terms of the deal were not disclosed, Carta competitor cap base allows companies to update their cap table in real-time, as it issues shares, signs contracts and raises money from investors. Deel plans to pair it's existing services with a new product dedicated to equity management and issuance. Interesting move, I say shout out to Deel and Capbase.


Chad: Doesn't seem high priority, does it? It's kinda interesting with what Deel does, I wouldn't think that as a high priority. Maybe it is a market differentiator, but is it that big of a market differentiator to go out and acquire a company? That's a questionable. That's questionable.


Joel: I guess if you hire people on a global scale, having a global solution to manage shares and equity and all that stuff is something you need to do, so go out and buy it, if you can't build it, or don't wanna build it.


Chad: Interesting.


Joel: Terms weren't disclosed, so we don't know how much of a deal this was?


Chad: Could've been.


Joel: Get it? Much of a deal? Dad joke alert.


Chad: My next shout-out is to Welcome to Wrexham. That's right kids, the marketing master class, known as Welcome to Wrexham, featuring Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney, pulled in over $500,000 per episode for season one, talking about 18 episodes, around over 9 million dollars. That's right, Europe, it took an American and a Canadian to make Welsh football profitable, again, you're welcome. If you haven't watched Welcome to Wrexham, it's on Hulu, and it's a must watch, if you're into business, marketing and just a damn good time. I was blown away by the little pieces of business and marketing that was happening behind the scenes that they didn't really allude to, they just showed what was happening, and if you weren't paying attention, you didn't get it. But man, watching it, I was like, holy shit, these guys were making a shit tonne of cash, it was awesome.


Joel: Do we know if this show is on in Europe?


Chad: Yeah, I believe it is. I believe it is.


Joel: Okay. It's a brilliant business move.


Chad: So smart.


Joel: And Ryan Reynolds has these weird like cellular stuff and Jen, and he gets in really odd stuff, but this... And I don't know as much about football soccer as you do, but I'm guessing if you can take a team from this level to the next level, the value of that team goes up exponentially. If you just spend the money and get the right coach in the fan base... And so instead of just buying Chelsea, just instead of spending big money, spend a modest amount, get to the next level and then the value of that team goes up significantly, not to mention, the value of the advertisers, TikTok, Expedia, the brand of these guys.


Chad: It's crazy.


Joel: So it's really brilliant. I expect more athletes celebrities to do this, Pickleball I know is apparently a huge sport and Tom Brady, LeBron are getting into pickleball, hoping that it blows up as well.


Chad: It's like one of the worst games I've ever played, but okay.


Joel: Pickleball. Pickleball?


Chad: Yes, it's fucking horrible. [chuckle]


Joel: Alright. From one of the worst games to one of the worst, probably IPOs that you've ever heard of, a 30-year-old Career Link, a provider of HR recruiting, staffing and retention software and services is going public, they're raising money to acquire independent recruiting and staffing firms that are challenged to compete effectively, without strong technology. Sounds a little bit like Job.com, doesn't it? Just a little bit like Job.com.


Chad: Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


Joel: Anyway, they've been okay to raise up to 50 million in investment capital. If you wanna get an chat, they're looking for 4 per share, with a minimum investment of 400 per investor. It's January and the IPO market is already lit Chad. IPOs.


Chad: How is that working for the biggest staffing company in the world who bought Monster. It's oil and fucking water, so it's gonna be interesting to... Again, and we take a look at Job.com, and we take a look at how they entered the market, they're go to market, and how that's changed dramatically. To see a 30-year-old platform come in and try to do this, I think it's interesting. Good for them. Love it. Good luck, but I see this one dying on the vine, baby.


Joel: Full disclosure, Chad, are you gonna be an investor?


Chad: No.


Joel: No, yeah, me neither. Me neither. Alright. Well, who is a winner...


Chad: Anybody with free stuff.


Joel: And may or may not invest, I don't know, is the people that get free stuff on our show, Chad, if you don't get free stuff, you're not signed up. You gotta go to the site, Chadcheese.com, click the free link, we're talking whiskey from tax kernel, we're talking beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs, if it's your birthday this month Plum might send you some rum. T shirts from our buddies at JobGet. We announced the winners of whiskey and birthday, that was Ed Zetaski, one of our league fans. Sarah Berlin, is this months beer winner. Everybody's kind of a winner who listens to our show, but these folks are big winners. And by the way, kids, if you're listening to the show, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. We love getting feedback. It's our oxygen. Take a couple of minutes and tell us what you think.


Chad: Berlin, that was, take my breath away. It wasn't it?


[music]


Joel: That was... Yes. Yes.


Chad: So what free stuff does kids, it'll take your breath away.


Joel: Free stuff, yes. And some people were born when that song was released, Chad, which brings us to birthdays this month. That's right, some fans are celebrating another trip around the sun. And remember, if it's your birthday kids, our friends at Plum are sending you a nice bottle of rum, potentially, but you gotta sign up. You can't win it if you're not in it. Celebrating a birthday this week, Jill Patterson. Tom Bartle, Paul Drake, Chris Grosgene, Chanele Nelson, Jenny Olson, Michael Odell, GJ Vasdor, Joan Lockwood, Jason Roberts, Robin schooling Tomar, Jess Miller, Miller Merrill and Chris Amato. Happy Birthday everybody.


Chad: January babies.


Speaker 4: Happy Birthday!


Joel: I think we found out those were St. Patricks day kids. I think that's what Sarah, Sarah white...


Chad: Somebody's doing the math.


Joel: Did the math.


Chad: That's a fact... Doing the math. Okay, we're into events kids. So the first event for the Chad and Cheese where you can actually come see us, and you should, is on the 26th of April, where we're going to unleash America at Caesar's forum in Vegas. Now, we're used to, we're used to unleash being at the MGM Grand, so what are your thoughts on the change of venue, Joe? What do you think?


Joel: My thought?


[music]


[chuckle]


Chad: It is sexy.


Joel: Those are my thoughts. We're talking like part of it's outdoors, it's like a whole exciting way to sort of engage with a conference or event, so I think they're bringing sexy to Vegas and I, for one, cannot wait to soak up in the sexy at Unleash.


Chad: It's a digital business, event space, it's huge, it's new, it's got a huge ass Faris wheel, the 2022 NFL Draft was actually held there, so it's got great outside of venue capabilities and it is sexy. It's very sexy.


Joel: Our travel is powered by our friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, we just love those guys. If you're not utilizing them, w the hell are you doing, folks? What the hell are you doing?


Chad: We gotta go to the announcement. This is an announcement.


Joel: Alright, hold on, here we go.


Chad: Nobody knows this is happening yet, everybody has an inkling that it's happening. But, this is what you've been waiting for kids. Recfest USA is now official on the 13th and 14th of September in Nashville, Tennessee at Bicentennial Park. The view of Nashville is gorgeous from Bicentennial Park. Have you been there? Have you've seen it?


Joel: Yeah, I have.


Chad: It's fucking gorgeous. About 10 to 15 minutes walk from Broadway, Nashville is the music capital of the world, not LA kids, Nashville. They're gonna have three stages, the Inspire stage, the Innovate stage, and the Chad and Cheese disrupt stage, where we're gonna have nothing but technology on there.


Joel: Recfest USA baby.


[music]


Chad: It's a team sport. TA leaders bring their teams, and if you're looking at all hands kind of like meeting for 2023, make it in Tennessee. September 13th and 14th, bring the entire team. It's an amazing experience.


Joel: And did you hear In and Out is coming to Tennessee, by the way? Not connected whatsoever, but it's a food, it's fast food and it's delicious, so I thought I'd throw that in there.


Chad: It's a staple of Joel Cheeseman, whenever he gets close to one.


Joel: Now what would In and Out be in Portuguese? Would it be the same?


Chad: I've got a lot of work to do on my Portuguese. Although, if we say it and we are saying it, it will actually be on the Chad and Cheese Portuguese foreign language version, the German, the French and the Spanish. That's right, we have four additional foreign language podcasts that you can find wherever you listen to podcast, just search for The Chad and Cheese, Deutsch, Español, Portuguese. And... What's the French word?


Joel: Francais?


Chad: Francais, that's it. The Chad and Cheese, Francais, look for those. And it could be in your native language.


Joel: Alright. It's that time Chad.


S?: Layoffs.


Joel: Layoffs. That's right. Alright. You probably heard Microsoft is laying off 10,000 workers from news this week. Well, they're not alone, our space is getting rocked to barely a month after it hit unicorn status. Beamery said it's laying off around 12% of its workforce. Quick refresher in December Beamery closed a 50 million series D, funding around, which looked at the company to evaluation of more than a billion dollars. Fellow Unicorn Lattice who's raised over 325 million and employed almost 500 people will be trimming head count by 15%. Who else is trimming, you might ask? According to layoffs.FYI we got Carta, Limeade, Oyster, Re-level Career Arch, WorkMotion, Glance, HiBob, Jobcase, Payfactors, Namely and Remote, I'm guessing that won't be the end of it, but that's a hell of a lot of names just in our space. There's blood in the streets, Chad, what's your take?


Chad: Oh you said in December, you're gonna push pause on giving Beamery shit, are you back on the...


Joel: Oh I'll get to Beamery, you give us your thoughts first.


[chuckle]


Chad: So after the Series D announcement just last month, I wasn't impressed with Beamery, because Beamery is taken too much cash, they're deliverable is way too broad. Beamery touted Fortune 500 revenue growth by 250%, then why the series D cash? They also touted 135% retention rate, which means they were growing wallet share, then why the series D cash? Is this is scrolling away the nut scenario? I really hope so. Nevertheless, Beamery situation where less than a handful of larger platforms could actually afford them. So even if they were worth the Unicorn valuation, and I don't believe they are, there aren't many people that can actually buy them. So what do you think about Beamery?


Joel: So I'm out on Beamery, they had me in and they totally lost me. How ridiculous is it tout your Unicorn status and new funding, only to lay off 12% of your people a month later, basically. Talk about a moral booster there at HQ. By the way, my girl Alison Holbrook was part of the right sizing. So if you're looking for a kick-ass Head of Marketing, hit me up and I'll make that introduction.


Chad: Oh shit, yeah.


Joel: I talked to some friends and industry, CEO summed it up best. And says it better than I ever could, "Raise a little more money and take the delusion hit. They raised 50 million on a 1 billion dollar valuation. They're cutting 50 people to save 5 million dollars a year. Stupid." My contact, who'll remains anonymous added, "Trimming like that just starts the downward spiral, it's better to strap up and grow into it, if you're fucked, then you need to do a Twitter and cut deep and hard and reset your cost structure, trimming a little on a growth company like Beamery and Lattice, just kills the momentum, trust and culture."


Joel: Amen. Investors and founders need to put down the startup playbook and maybe start leading a little bit. I will note that the letter from the Lattice CEO was pretty classy and transparent. That was the only one I think we saw that from. But yeah, think twice before you make these layoffs, it's not just the Sequoia deck that you should be taking into consideration. It is a lot of other things.


Chad: Yeah. So I mean, to those response to Lattice, 100 plus people got riffed. And that's a big shock to the system. Here's a little excerpt from Jack Altman, the CEO of Lattice's, letter. "While our revenue has grown by five times since the start of the pandemic, our costs have grown by even more as we geared up for a continued rate of growth that now looks unlikely." That's just irresponsible. We knew this was unsustainable. Here's another quote, "My job now is to lead the company through a change in the way we operate with a far more balanced approach to growth and efficiency because the market and our customers will demand it." They demanded it before Jack, who said to go out and be irresponsible? I mean, nobody did. But you are not the one being held responsible. You're not the one that's actually gonna get cut.


Chad: So do the dance, keep taking the check, keep pointing fingers at everybody else and keep doing a shitty job. I mean, personally, I don't want anybody to be riffed, but if 100 plus people lose their jobs, then the fucking CEO should too. He was irresponsible, so he should pay the price as well. If we don't have those types of impacts for people in the C-Suite, what's to stop them from actually damaging or impacting negatively individuals livelihoods.


Joel: You just said, do the dance, Chad.


[music]


Chad: That's what he's doing, he's dancing.


Joel: No doubt, not the last time we're gonna talk about layoffs in 2023. At least these people maybe had a good holiday, I don't know, but no word yet on Indeed layoffs, but they're back their old tricks. What's going on over at Indeed?


Joel: Yeah, Joel, so here at the Chad and Cheese Podcast, we like to educate and entertain, which is why we're following the continuing saga of Indeed's newest product called, get ready, Pay Per Started Application. What is Pay Per Started Application? Well, I'm glad you asked, Joel. PPSA is a pricing model which charges you when a job seeker undertakes an activity to begin the application process, this is actually from Indeed's FAQs, on their site. For example, clicking the Call to Action button to apply for a job in a job ad, the button may appear as Apply, Apply Now or Apply on the Site. PPSA is performance-based and aims to deliver the highest number of started applications for your jobs and budget. Instead of evenly spreading budget across a campaign's duration, it dynamically spends budget to match job seeker demand and fill roles with more efficiency. Bullshit. So let's break this down a little bit. Remember when Indeed first was created, Joel? What model did they start with?


Joel: Google for Jobs?


Chad: [chuckle] Yes. It was pay per click. I mean, they...


Joel: Oh, you didn't want me to go that far back.


Chad: Yeah, no, no, I did. I did. I mean, it was Google for Jobs, and the way that they made money was pay per click. You use pay per click, it was very simple. You click on the job title and it took you to the job on the corporate career site. In this example, I'm gonna use corporate career site, it took you directly to the corporate career site. Then Indeed rolled out TwoPane. What was the change there? What was the big change that they made from that model to the TwoPane?


Joel: I could click away baby. I could just... I didn't have to go to another side. I could just click, click, click, click and stay in Indeed, that must have been beautiful for the bottom line.


Chad: Oh yeah, because Indeed changed away from the search engine model, they went to a job board model, where when you clicked on it, instead of taking the job seeker to the corporate career site where they could look at the branding, the experience, and they can apply for the job, they kept them on Indeed.


Joel: It'd be like if Google had two panes where one of the panes had the actual website, you were clicking on Google and you could just...


Chad: Boom, boom, boom.


Joel: Machine gun through Google's results to see all the pages that are there. And so much of that for those that haven't seen it.


Chad: And what happened back then, the first model was PPC, when you clicked on it and you went to the website, you were charged 'cause that was a click. But with TwoPane, they didn't take you directly to the website. You clicked, you still had to pay. But that kept you on Indeed. So now Indeed is transitioning to PPSA, which creates the Pay Per Start Apply, where they can dramatically increase rates after a job seeker reviews the jobs, and then clicks the Apply button on Indeed. So how can they charge more for that? The only thing that's changed here from back in the day when they were a search engine to now, is they inserted a click, that's it. But they're still making people pay more because they're calling it something different than Pay Per Click.


Joel: Yeah, there's a few layers of the onion to peel here, from my perspective. Number one is, some nerds with pencils at Indeed did some math and said, "Okay, how many applies do we typically get per how many clicks?" And there's probably an average of... "Hey, after 10 clicks, we're gonna get four applies or whatever." So then it becomes, "Okay, how much can we charge for an apply to start making more than the clicks that we're making?" And by the way, Pay Per Apply process or start of apply, it sounds pretty good to a customer. Like, "Hey, we're not gonna charge you for those random clicks, we're just gonna charge you when someone actually clicks Apply to take that next step into the process."


Joel: So as a customer I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm not paying for these crazy applys." Which when it was TwoPane, it was like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And I was getting fewer applys than I was before TwoPane. So now Indeed's in this weird spot, like, "Okay, how do we make more or keep making the money that we're making, but create some fear, uncertainty and doubt with the pricing model in what we're doing?"


Joel: So this to me is a way to get those pay per click dollars plus whatever with the apply process. The second layer of the onion here that I see is if there's one major thing that keeps Indeed up at night, it's programmatic job distribution. And that is a pay-per-click model. So imagine all the sales people at Indeed, all the customer service people at Indeed that are like, "Why am I paying you $1.30 per click when I can go to Appcast, I can go to Recruitology, Jobbex, Panda, or whatever, and pay 72 cents? That makes no sense to me. I'm gonna not use Indeed so much anymore because I'm... " So then they're competing with a lot lower prices on clicks. So now it's like, "Okay, let's divert the click thing and have this new model that we can say, "Oh, wait a minute, it's not apples to apples, this is apples to oranges. Our model is way different than this pay per click thing." So yeah, so I battle back on the programmatic wave. I'm making more money than I was on pay per click. I'm creating a little bit of uncertainty in the customer. Like, "Okay, that sounds good, but is it?"


Joel: Who's actually gonna do the math on, "Okay. When I was click only, here's what I paid, now it's pay per applicant." That becomes work for an employer. And they're probably not gonna do that in most cases. So to me this is a strategic move. It has nothing to do with the betterment for the job seeker, or this is better for the employer. It's strategy. I mean, hats off to them if it... Assuming that it's working, but it's just a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt. A lot of obfuscation by Indeed to keep that cash cow mooing without losing market share to the players that are coming up. And by the way, Indeed pays programmatic companies to send traffic to Indeed. So they're paying. They're on the pay-per-click model. And they're also doing the math on, "Okay, how much are we paying Tauru to get us a visitor? And then how many of those visitors will apply to jobs? So we're gonna make sure we're paying Tauru less than what we're getting in applys." So they're double-dipping on the programmatic providers as well as their own solution.


Chad: Yeah. "How can I pay less for what they're sending us and have our clients pay more for what we're giving them?" Also, don't forget my prediction, Google for Jobs pops out with an ad version. They've got to do something to separate themselves from something like Google for Jobs. They'll go pay per click as well. So they'll say, "No, we're different. We're doing the application start."


Joel: Yeah, that's another thing. Google's never gonna get into the click-apply game. They're gonna be pretty simple, like they always been. So that's another thing. We can fend off Google by having a different pricing model altogether than the pay per click because you don't wanna be in the conversation of, "Why would I pay you X when I can pay Google Y which is much less." They don't wanna get in that conversation.


Chad: They still gonna have to have that conversation.


Joel: Yeah. So digging into the terms of service, and if you missed two weeks ago, Sarah White and I got into a deep dive on Indeed's terms of service. So go in to the archives, if you wanna check that one out. So apparently the FAQ page for this service, you can actually opt out of PPSA. However, PPSA cannot be turned off for jobs index by Indeed or jobs posted directly on Indeed using a monthly budget. If you do not want to utilize the PPSA pricing model, you can post a job directly on Indeed and choose a daily budget. Are you as confused as I am? Yeah, I'm pretty confused too. And the other thing that's confusing, if you look at the fine print, a conversation with a chat bot, is counted as an apply.


Chad: Could be an apply start.


Joel: Scanning a QR code is counted as an apply. So does that mean if I flirt with a chat bot and ask her to talk dirty to me, is that now an apply? Apparently it is at Indeed. Or if I go to a restaurant accidentally scan a QR code, 'cause it's a menu and not a job application, is that now an apply? According to Indeed that's an apply now. So read the fine print, be a smart consumer. But Indeed's playing games. And you get to decide whether you play or not. And a lot of people are still gonna play, but we're here to help you be smart in your choices of job advertising. We'll be right back.


Joel: Netflix, holy... Have we talked about them other than what they show on their platform?


Chad: I don't think so. I don't think so.


Joel: Yeah. Imagine this, pay transparency, the topic of conversation. Our friends at Netflix have taken pay transparency to new lows this week, or maybe it's new highs, this from CNBC, "Netflix is looking to hire a flight attendant for one of its super mid-sized private jets." It sounds like a good gig, that sounds even better with the job posting saying the overall market range for this role is typically 60,000 to $385,000 a year. I think the regulators in New York, looking at pay transparency, might wanna have a little conversation with the folks in Netflix. The job posting ends with, "This market range is based on total compensation versus only base salary, which is in line with our compensation philosophy."


Joel: It's not quite the $1 to $1 million in salary range we joked about, but it's getting pretty close. Chad, your thoughts on Netflix and their new job posting.


Chad: Yeah, we have a saying in the military, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." And here are the prizes Netflix wins for playing the stupid game, employers, listen up, because this could be you. Prize number one, Netflix just put a target on their own back. Yes, the roll out of this new law was quick, but this goes well beyond the bounds of looking like a good faith effort to the US government. And when enforcement starts, Netflix will be on the top of their list. Prize number two, the horrible, "We don't give a shit about your needs" optics. Candidates are demanding to know what the salary is on all jobs. So when you post a range like that, you look like a total asshole. And this story, which has nearly 7,000 impressions just on my LinkedIn feed alone, has not only caught the eyes of government, but also talent, who won't touch your brand with a 10-foot pole. So just two of many stupid prizes companies win when playing this game. Imagine if you're a government contractor raking in millions or billions of dollars from the US government, and then HR and TA plays this game, just think about putting millions or billions of dollars of contracts, on the line and perspectively losing them because you're playing these stupid games.


Joel: Interesting perspective on the government side. To me, this is like, "Hey, show me a 10-foot wall, I'll show you an 11-foot ladder." Here's how some companies are going to get out of the pay transparency law. Here's the loophole, Chad. Healthcare, stock compensation, sales commission, revenue sharing, or whatever can be used to create a huge range in salary. And who's gonna be able to police what your stock is gonna be worth in 12 months? You can't. But can you put it as a range of the salary? Apparently, you probably can. Hello, loophole. Hello, grey area. Netflix, to me, has found the G-spot, if you will. And I think a lot of companies are gonna use these variable revenue salary things like, "What's healthcare cost? How much revenue, if we share revenue, are we gonna share with you this year? How much is our stock gonna be worth in a year from now?" Those are variables that you can't make hard numbers around. And I think companies like Netflix are gonna use those variables to create really wide ranges in salary to get around the whole pay transparency law.


Chad: Salary is salary, period. Definition is already out there, you can't roll everything else up. You can't. It's not how it works. Salary is salary. And this is salary transparency. So that's total bullshit. If they're trying to put in benefits, benefits are not salary. They try to put in commission, commission is not salary. As a matter of fact, commission's even taxed differently than salary is. So you can't roll all that shit up. If you try, you get smacked in the fucking head, because salary equals salary. So yes, you can try to play, again, play the stupid games, Joel, but you're gonna win stupid fucking prizes.


Joel: I'm gonna go on a limb and say, Netflix has really good lawyers, and they've probably read a lot of these laws. And we'll see.


Joel: You know who's gonna talk about the lawsuits? You and me, baby. And that means more job security for us as podcasters, which means thank God AI hasn't quite figured out the nuance and expertise that we have with the show.


Chad: It's getting there. Yeah.


Joel: So destined to be a topic all year long. It's Chat GPT. Microsoft announced that it is expanding access to Open AI's popular Chat GPT software, which it has been previewing to its cloud computing customers in a program called the Azure Open AI Service. The software is now generally available, which is expected to bring a flood of new usage. The news comes as Microsoft has looked at adding up to $1 billion in its stake in Open AI, which it did in 2019. It's making a 10 billion investment in the company now. And this just in from Sky News. Something totally different. Chat GPT was unknowingly recommended for a job interview by a recruitment team after the AI was used to complete an application. Candidates, and I put that in air quotes, were asked, "In 300 words, tell us the secret of good writing." The AIs response was short-listed for an interview at the communications consultancy firm, SCHWA. The company's owner and founder stated that, "The AI was more competent than a lot of the bad people who apply to us."


Joel: This incident raises concerns about the potential of AI to replace human workers in the future. No shit. Chad, I'm sure we're ready... I'm not sure human beings are ready for what's coming. What's your take on the latest news from Chat GPT?


Chad: First off, in Davos, Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadela, says Chat GPT will be integrated into all of Microsoft products. So this isn't just a "can it apply for a job and get it?" This is gonna be much easier to use in the future because it's gonna be integrated into Microsoft products, which is really fucking cool. I think it's amazing. The big question is, all of Microsoft products, do you think they're going to integrate into LinkedIn? And if they did, how would they?


Joel: Are you really looking for a comment?


Chad: You don't see it happening?


Joel: We've talked about the integration of LinkedIn into Microsoft products. That's pretty much been a big nothing burger for the company. So do I think they're gonna go the other way and integrate this into LinkedIn? I mean, they should, I kinda hope they do, 'cause it'll make things interesting and good for us to talk about. But do I have confidence that LinkedIn is going to do that? No.


Chad: I think when we take a look at the landscape itself, we're definitely going to have to evolve with this new technology. There are actually teachers that are using Chat GPT in classrooms. So this is doing nothing but pushing us up a level to get better and crisper about the content that we're actually putting out. And, here's the big key, companies are putting out so much fucking horrible content right now, if they just focused on putting out good shit and then compartmentalize that and then use that to actually market throughout the year, I mean, you could put out 10% of the shit that you are now, in some cases, and do a much better job. And that's the thing is, I think Chat GPT will put out a shit ton of content. And it can. Because it can scale better than any human being. But it's dull content, it's not great content. You're gonna want great content.


Joel: Yeah. I got shared something on LinkedIn, "Technology can identify what's been created by AI." Don't ask me how it works, I have no idea. Wait till Google releases its algorithm to detect what content has been created by AI, and watch the penalties and rankings drop. That's gonna be a fun day for a lot of people. So if you're using AI to create content, Google can probably detect what's AI and what's human.


Chad: They won't care. Not gonna care if it's getting engaged and it's getting...


Joel: Google won't care, or the company won't care?


Chad: Google won't care.


Joel: Google won't care? They might care.


Chad: No. It's all about engagement. Who cares who wrote it?


Joel: So back to my point of what we're actually talking about, not to Google's latest update that's coming. So to me, this is shaping up to be the arms race of the decade. We all know Google is on DEFCON 1 and won't relinquish market share in this way, easily. They're in talks already to invest 200 million in an AI startup called Cohere. And we already know, at least one ex-Googler thinks Google's AI is a sentient being. And said so and got fired. So he may be saying something that we don't. But this is gonna be battle royale. And it's gonna be really interesting how this thing plays out. As far as employment, we joke a lot about a day when robots are just hiring robots, this story out of Sky News means we're not far off from that, 'cause yeah, it gets a little bit nuts from the... All these people are being laid off by HR tech companies are gonna start building companies around Open AI and the API, applying for jobs with AI, building cover letters, resumes, pre-screening questions, etcetera.


Joel: And then someone's gonna come along and create something that's gonna red flag any of these responses, resumes that are built with AI. So companies are gonna be started up. They're gonna get a bunch of money invested, and we're gonna talk about all of them. But this is gonna be a whole new industry that's gonna be created just for us on resumes, job descriptions, cover letters, screening questions, etcetera. It's gonna be pretty loco. It's gonna be Corona time when all this shit starts going down.


[music]


Chad: A new version of rage applying.


Joel: Apply to my job in the language of Shakespeare, please. That would be nice. All right. When we get back... Oh shit, Irene is back, baby. I can't believe, I can't believe she's back. Not in our space, but she's back. All right. So Hootsuite, one of 2008 hottest companies, has a new CEO. The Vancouver Canada-based social media management firm has replaced its CEO, Tom Kaiser, with Irina Novoselsky, the former CEO of Career Builder. The company also announced its third round of layoffs in the past six months, coming around 70 employees or 7% of its workforce. This represents the company's third staff cut since August of 2020, and the company's head count now sits at 900 people. It sounds like she's walking into a dream job. Chad, what's your take on Irina's new gig?


Chad: Yeah, from one dumpster fire to the next. That's awesome. So I automatically thought this was an Apollo portfolio play, but Apollo isn't one of Hootsuite's funders. So then I just kinda backed up and thought, "Okay, so what could this be about?" So my first thought was basing her cred off of Career Builder's dumpster fire, which anyone outside of the industry wouldn't attune to. She looks like a great candidate, to be quite frank. And then number two, bringing Irina in to make an Apollo acquisition might be more appetizing. So if you're bringing one of the old team players from Apollo in, and you wanna look sexy to a PE firm, who can prospectively buy you, that might not be a bad idea.


Joel: Look at you connecting some dots. I taught you something. Yeah.


Chad: That's what we do.


Joel: Dude, Irina is quickly becoming the angel of death, if you work for one of her companies. If she walks into your office, run, or at least update your LinkedIn profile. To your point, HootSuite was set to go IPO last year. They raised $200 million Canadian. They were hoping to raise $200 million Canadian through an IPO. It didn't happen. Let's let the CEO go. He didn't deliver. He's out, Irina's in. It was nice to them to fire everyone before she came on, so she doesn't have blood on her hands. That was really nice of them, but I like the Apollo connection. I like the prediction. IPOs aren't really happening these days, so an acquisition could be in the offing. And everyone knows about Chad's predictions.


Chad: 60% of the time, it works every time.


Chad: Every time...


Joel: We out.


Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? Podcast with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening, it's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo, if you wanna subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode and while you at it, visit www.chadcheese.com, just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.