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Disability Solutions

Facebook Jobs Invasion

It's a lactose-free episode of The Chad & Cheese podcast with special guest, Canadian podcast superstar, Shelley Billinghurst of The Recruitment Flex.

This week we ask...

- Why is Facebook invading my notifications and feed with jobs?

- Is Work From Home just a phase?

You've got questions and we've got Molson and Yukon Jack fueled hypotheses.

Big thanks to our friends at Jobvite, JobAdX, and Sovren for supporting The Chad & Cheese - HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (32s):

Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I and Chad, "Hey, the damn people" Sowash and today I am joined by

Shelly (38s):

Shelley "stay in your own damn country," Billinghurst.

Chad (44s):

And all today's a lactose-free episode apparently Facebook is really serious about this job's thing, will Covid kill the job board star? Is work from home, just a phase, and will Canada aligned with UK on gig? Stay tuned there's more to come.

JOB AD X (1m 3s):

Your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit?

JOB AD X (1m 43s):

JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at that's

Chad (2m 6s):

All right, everybody put your hands together and welcome guest host, Shelley Billinghurst to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Everybody. How you feeling, Shelley?

Shelly (2m 16s):

I'm pretty happy to be here. Tell you I'm living the dream. Thank you for having me on the show Chad.

Chad (2m 22s):

So do you have butterflies, could you sleep last night?

Shelly (2m 25s):

I did have stress dreams. I have to admit, I kept thinking I was going to be late. I'm going to forget to say something. Like, you know, that dream where you have to get to the airport and all these things prevent you from doing?Yeah, that was me last night. So yeah, it's a big day here in the great white North. It's a big day. So thank you for having me.

Chad (2m 46s):

I obviously traded up this week for Shelley while Cheeseman takes her slot on Canada's hit podcast, the Recruitment Flex, and I believe correct me if I'm wrong, Shelley, all 200 people in Canada actually listened to the Recruitment Flex, right?

Shelly (3m 1s):

Yes. Yes. And it's, it's just, it's caught on fire. OUTs. Oh you tease.

Chad (3m 9s):

Geez. Seriously. Give our listeners a quick Twitter bio about you. Who is Shelley?

Shelley (3m 15s):

I am Shelley Billinghurst. I live in the great white North. I'm in the Western part of Canada, very low density population, but we are just a stone's throw from the beautiful Rocky Mountains and the lovely city of Banff. I come to you with let's look, we're just going to go with 20 plus years in recruitment and I'm the president and founder of Hire Value, Inc. We are recruitment marketing advertising.

Chad (3m 43s):

Very nice. Thank you. We are happy to have you. How, how did we actually get you over Serge? Because I think we actually got the, the better part of the deal on this one.

Shelley (3m 53s):

Well, thank you. Thank you. Do you know, I think I just kind of elbowed my way and said, Oh no, like this, this needs to be Shelley and Chad, of course. And, and I think there's some sort of Canadian connection with Mr. Cheeseman, right? He's married to a Canadian. Yeah.

Chad (4m 11s):

We can't even get into Canada right now. What kind of irony is this? We're talking about building a wall on the Southern border, but we can't even get through the Northern.

Shelley (4m 21s):

Okay. So let me clear that up just a little bit. You can come in, but we're going to quarantine you at a government approved hotel at your own expense. And that's even with tested negative for COVID. We're actually going to put you in Canada, hotel jail. You can still come. I mean, like if that's not the biggest, you're not welcome. I don't know what it is.

Chad (4m 44s):

And you're going to charge Waldorf Historia rates. I'm sure.

Shelley (4m 47s):

Do you know, the government is very secretive about what hotels they've chosen. I have no idea if it's like the seediest little hotel somewhere near the airport or the Waldorf, but I do have an idea as to why this is such an extreme reaction. Over the Christmas season there were numerous, very senior government officials who decided that the COVID 'don't travel rule' just didn't apply to them and they were off in the sun taking their families on vacation and coming back after the Christmas break.

Chad (5m 20s):


Shelley (5m 21s):

I know, right. It doesn't apply to them. They just make the laws. They don't have to follow them. There was huge fallout. There were resignations both at the, you know, kind of the state slash provincial level, as well as at the federal level, there was a lot of shame on you. So I think this is like typical overreaction, now, you know, we're gonna make it tough for anybody to leave the country and even tougher, if you need to come up here, my heart goes out to people who have no family here and they need to come and attend, you know, sad events, like funerals and that sort of thing.

Chad (5m 54s):

Right. Let's just make it clear here in the United States we're not embarrassed about anything, obviously because our politicians do whatever the hell they want. The only thing that I think happened where Ted 'dumb ass; Cruz went to Cancun and then found his way back. But for the most part, for the most part, yeah. Our politicians do whatever the hell they want, while they tell you to do something entirely different. So that's normal here in the US you guys are, are much nicer in Canada.

Shelley (6m 25s):

Oh, okay.

Chad (6m 26s):

So I got a little bit of news from the Indeed camp. You want to hear it?

Shelley (6m 32s):

Yeah. Bring it!

Chad (6m 33s):

So a very strong rumors are coming out of the Indeed camp. Indeed's virtual interviewing platform. It's been free to employers and users, and guess what kids, go figure, Indeed's going to start charging you sometime very soon. Now, I personally have not used this platform. Have you, Shelley is, do you think it would be worth the squeeze?

Shelley (6m 55s):

Yes and no. The yes side of this is, well, you know, where are you going to get the candidate traffic? And so when you look at low who the big players are, which we all know, because there are other virtual interviewing platforms, right. That you can subscribe to, but then you've got to pay to get the traffic, right? Like how are you going to advertise it? So I think that's the plus. The downside is, you know, again, you're kind of putting all your eggs in one basket. You've got, I don't know if you could use other platforms to drive traffic or your own organic traffic, that I don't know. What I do know though, is yes, I have actually test driven cause usually in Canada we will see once it's been tested out, they'll roll it out to Canada, as far as features and upgrades.

Shelley (7m 39s):

And I've actually used the tool and found it to be well, considering it was free, super! Well, it did cost you the whatever it costs to advertise. Right?

Chad (7m 49s):


Shelley (7m 49s):

I was impressed. You have to wonder what the evil empire actually has to do behind this? This is another platform I see them bringing to bear. Will it actually integrate with applicant tracking systems? Will it be a system that works outside of the Indeed ecosystem? I doubt it. Yeah. I have not deep dived into how it connects with all the major applicant tracking systems. But I do believe, I mean, it would make sense that you could feed, like whoever you hired just directly into your HRS, it does work outside your applicant tracking system. So good point.

Chad (8m 23s):

Stay tuned for more evil empire shit.

Shelley (8m 26s):

I'm just so not popular.

Chad (8m 29s):

Shout outs. You get, you get the, you get the first shout out. Who do you want to give a shout out to?

Shelley (8m 34s):

Oh my gosh. Okay. Big drum roll. There's there is one real cool kid. One of the coolest kids here in Canada is Will van Middendorf. Will is a guy, he runs three companies and he's also a father of two little kids, but in his spare time, he runs the Canadian recruiters network and is just so awesome to give back the recruiting community here in Canada. So big shout out. Hey, Will, thanks for all you do.

Chad (9m 1s):

Very nice. Very nice. I'm going to give a shout out to Costco who ups their minimum waves to $16 an hour now! Two years ago, they moved their minimum wage to $15 an hour and they're just going to one up, all the bullshit that's happening in Congress right now. So overall, if you do work at Costco, their employees receive up to two bonuses each year, which can be around $4,000 combined. The, the average hourly wage, which include those bonuses are around $24 an hour. Now that's what I call actual wages. Depending on where you live. Right? But overall, $15.

Chad (9m 41s):

Come on guys. That's literally $30,000 a year before taxes. We at least need to go there for a minimum wage.

Shelley (9m 49s):

Nice. Shout out. Can I do another one?

Chad (9m 51s):


Shelley (9m 52s):

So I do want to shout out my buddy, Derek Christiansen, formerly of ZipRecruiter. He's just moved over to Virtual Event Platform. Hmm. What are we just talking about? That it's called Brazen. And so I do understand from Derek that he actually was in an airport and saw you and Joel and went up to you and said, Hey, love the podcast. And you guys were like, meah, whatever stars, fans, do you want me to sign something? I don't know, but he's pretty sure you guys don't remember him, but he was like, I met those guys.

Chad (10m 26s):

That's that's total fake news, number one, but I remember meeting him in, I believe it was Minneapolis airport and we sat down and we actually chatted with him for a little while. So that's fake news. I remember it! Brain like a fricking elephant over here. So yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Awesome. But we love our fans. Shout out to friend of the show, Isabel Kent who sent me some old Overholt and 11 year old rye whiskey. She's trying to broaden my whiskey talent. So thanks Isabelle. It was delicious not to mention. Isabelle also is now the newly appointed executive director of Philly Startup Leaders.

Chad (11m 7s):

If you're one of our many listeners in Philly, you should definitely check them out. They're at Congratulations, Isabelle! Happy Birthday to Adam Chambers. The dude is 24 years old living the life. I'm telling you the kid travels. Well, pre COVID put it this way. Kid travels everywhere. He's a founder of his own organization, his own tech called Applichat. And you never know where you're going to find him. He could be in Mexico. He could be in Spain. He's all over the place. He's living and lovin' life. So happy 24th! God, I can't believe 24 years old. Adam Chambers, good job, man. Now on to free stuff. This is where we love our listeners, Shelley.

Chad (11m 52s):

This is going to move the, how much you love your listeners? Watch this. If you want free stuff, you go to and you register. And here's some of the stuff that you can actually win. T-shirts by Shelley. I'm sure you're a fan of text recruiting, right?

Shelley (12m 11s):

Mm I am. I am. It's what all the cool kids do, right?

Chad (12m 19s):

It is definitely what all the cool kids do. Go to Katrina Collier actually sent a picture to us. Gorgeous in her blue, Chad and Cheese t-shirt. Kyle Hagar shared a new pic with his new Chad and Cheese tee. Kyle buddy, you're starting to look like shaggy from Scooby. You need to get rid of that Covid hair dude. Beer by AdZuna that's right. Not just t-shirts beer. We had a late night drink, zoom beer tasting with Dennis Tupper from CVS. He was our latest winner and it's always fun to just sit back and enjoy a drink or two with our listeners and this month's winner drum roll, please ...

Chad (13m 6s):

iS David Bernstein from Job Sync. That's right, David.

Shelley (13m 13s):

I know him!

Chad (13m 14s):

Bernstein from JobSync. You might remember him. He is the Steven Seagal of recruiting.

Shelley (13m 21s):

That's right. He's a great guy. He really is. And he's got just the nicest little pony tail going on. He's a great guy.

Chad (13m 28s):


Shelley (13m 29s):

Lucky guy!

Chad (13m 29s):

Exactly what he wants to hear, nicest ponytail supposed to be a dangerous ponytail. It's supposed to be dangerous. Whiskey by Sovren that's right, kids Sovren has AI so human you'll want to get drunk with it. Are you a big fan of AI? Shelley? Do they have AI in Canada?

Shelley (13m 48s):

You are just something else. Of course, we even made our own!

Chad (13m 53s):

Made your own?

Shelley (13m 56s):

We have technology in Canada. Believe it or not, Chad, we do. And we actually have tech startups here in Canada. We actually have a tech community. Can you believe that? I know. I know it shocking.

Chad (14m 6s):

No I love it. I love to hear these things. Reports from the great white North stay tuned because next week we're actually going to announce the winner of the whiskey giveaway from Sovren this week. And in, remember you get two bottles of whiskey, one from Chad and one from Cheese. So yeah, what you guys should do, you and Serge, Shelley should actually have like a Yukon Jack Canadian whiskey giveaway or something like that. That sounds like fun.

Shelley (14m 38s):

Oh yeah. I'm on it. Like we'll work it into the budget because you know, we're not making any money right?

Chad (14m 45s):


Shelley (14m 46s):

We do this for free. Yes.

Chad (14m 47s):

Do you do it for the love?

Shelley (14m 49s):

Yes, we do. And so that's on agenda. Thank you. Nope.

Chad (14m 53s):

You're welcome. Made time for topics. Okay. So over the last couple of weeks, we've either talked about or mentioned in passing how Facebook is getting aggressive in scraping jobs. Some job sites are seeing activity that seemed like Facebook was just testing, you know, like intermittent scraping once a week, you know, amateur kind of stuff. Well, this week I had jobs in my Facebook notifications and feed itself. So it looks like they're actually looking to roll out a more aggressive user side of the house. So the user experience, you should start seeing more jobs.

Chad (15m 34s):

The thing that I'm trying to figure out, am I just a test subject? Are you seeing this kind of stuff? Shelley, are you on Facebook that much?

Shelley (15m 41s):

We are like for both the company and me personally. And so I think you must be part of a test group or as I think what I say see most of the time, is that they'll test it out in the U S and then we'll see it in Canada sometime, maybe 18 months down the road, sometimes not at all, but, you know, I wonder, so what you're seeing, is it relevant? Like, is it actually anywhere close? Like yeah.

Chad (16m 8s):

No, not even close. Yeah. Okay. So it's interesting because first and foremost, Facebook doesn't have enough of my information. I don't have my resume. I don't have like job history, like LinkedIn does. So the matching is total shit in itself, but it looks like they're at least trying, you see them trying, but it feels like amateur hour.

Shelley (16m 33s):

I agree. I agree. And do you know, I think they tried this before and it kind of fell flat, but, but I think maybe in some markets, I've heard that in some markets it's super popular and it's doing really well. I think in some markets, maybe it's like, Oh cool, man, like a golf director job. Ooh. Yeah, never thought of that.

Chad (16m 56s):

Exactly. I got, I got a golf director job in my feed, anything that said director, because I think I had like titles of what I've done, but I didn't have really any context provided to the titles. And obviously they have no type of ontology with regard to actual job titles as well. So I think they're really going to have to do a much better job because from what I'm hearing is, they're just scraping once per week. And that's horrible. You're going to get a lot of dead links. What does this mean for Indeed? I mean, everybody other than you, Shelley hates Indeed. So they're going to look for exit strategies.

Chad (17m 36s):

This is, this is going to be one of them.

Shelley (17m 38s):

That's not true!

Chad (17m 39s):

This is going to be one of those.

Shelley (17m 41s):

Well, so all you're doing is you're just trading one hater, for another, like, honestly, because if it were Google and Google for Jobs and I mean, they own everything.

Chad (17m 51s):


Shelley (17m 51s):

I mean come on. Like if they get into the, if they really go hard at and they then become kind of the next tidal wave, well then you're just going to hate Google. So, you know, it's we just decide who we're going to hate this month. So let me, let me lay some Canadian level on ya.

Chad (18m 6s):


Shelley (18m 7s):

Just chill man. Like, honestly, you're so salty!

Chad (18m 11s):

But Indeed is not a lifestyle platform. Right? Facebook and Google are both lifestyle platforms. These are things that we use on a daily basis when we're not looking for jobs. So these are a part of our daily routine. When Google starts feeding relevant jobs, when Facebook starts feeding relevant jobs, that's going to impact Indeed and all the other job boards in a very, very negative way. Don't you think?

Shelley (18m 41s):

Of course everyone's, you know, but I've heard it before. You know, I don't know if I mentioned I've been in the recruiting game for 20 plus years and I've seen it before. I just don't know. I mean, I don't have like you, I don't have a lot of confidence that they're going to do something so incredibly innovative and fun and easy that candidates go, I'm going to go look over here for work.

Chad (19m 6s):

Yeah. But I think what we're seeing is if you are a part of this platform and you use it every single day, it's going to be fed to you no matter what I mean, it's going to be more force fed than anything else and it'll get better. They'll get more data. They'll do those things better. I guess the big question is they seem to be going very aggressive at this now Facebook does. And we're also hearing, at least last week, we talked to Arran Stewart for the CVO of And he said that his Google for Jobs, traffic is actually better than the Google organic traffic. So it seems like there's more aggressive steps being taken by both organizations.

Chad (19m 48s):

The big question I'm hearing, and I agree a hundred percent. I actually worked with the Google-based team back in the day if you talk about dating yourself, we've seen these big companies fail before, because this is not their wheelhouse. The big question is what kind of debts, whether they're an expert or not, what kind of debt they will actually make.

Shelley (20m 7s):

It's an interesting idea, but it's not their core business. Yeah.

Chad (20m 11s):

Yeah. Well, that being said, Facebook and Google are getting into the jobs game. That that's one thing, but how does the rise in remote and work from home impact job boards?

Shelley (20m 23s):

Can I chime in on this?

Chad (20m 24s):

Oh yeah.

Shelley (20m 25s):

Oh, okay. So love the job board business it's but it's been around a long time too, right? Like it's I would have thought by now we would have invented something better, but other than type in job title and location, right? Like really? We're really looking, I guess we're looking to you Americans to invent something better. Yeah. It was interesting to consider what this is going to mean for employees. I know certainly here in candidates, it's starting to get safer to go back to work or bring people back to the office, but do they want to correct me if I'm wrong here Chad, but if you're unmarried and under the age of 30, you're probably pretty lonely.

Shelley (21m 6s):

And going back to the office is a good way to meet people. Shall we say? Or I don't know hookup, right?

Chad (21m 14s):


Shelley (21m 14s):

But I think it's the older workers who are like, you know, I'm okay. Let me just kind of judge up my house and I'm good. Like I don't miss the commute. I don't miss the dropping my kids off at six o'clock in the morning at daycare to drive for an hour and a half to get to the office.

Chad (21m 35s):

I see two issues right out of the gate. Number one, no matter what happens, they're going to be a contingent that go back to work. They're going to be a contingent that have a hybrid scenario. It doesn't matter what happens. Remote jobs are still going to explode in the coming months. How will job seekers manage that large influx of jobs that they will see from all over the country? Right? It's going to be information overload because most of the job boards will just do one thing. They're going to add a remote as location, which is what they've already done. And that doesn't fix the problem. What we're doing at that point is we are tagging everything that we have with remote.

Chad (22m 17s):

And then we were sending all of these jobs to job seekers who were perspectively qualified for those jobs, but might be across the country. Now, number two, this is a harder question for employers because now employers who are putting the remote tag on those jobs are going to receive a huge influx of job seekers from all over the country. So I have one answer when we're talking about technology and we're talking about job boards, and I think this is kind of like the first step. First off, this is a great opportunity for job boards to use the information already available to them. And then ask for more. This means top of the line parsing and matching tech is not a nice to have.

Chad (23m 1s):

It is a must have, because what will happen at that point is I can feed you jobs that are more relevant to you, instead of just sending you everything that is a quote unquote "sales job" that is remote and in my database and just totally overloading the job seeker. And then on the other side, overloading the employer. And I go back to, I'm going to hate on Indeed a little bit more seriously, Indeed spent millions of dollars on a Superbowl ad and their matching tech or how they've implemented their matching tech, sucks. What we need to do is we need to focus on relevance and experience and job boards from the standpoint of job seekers and employers, we have neglected that for decades.

Chad (23m 50s):

We've got to take this shit serious, or it's going to bite us in the ass. That's my thought.

Shelley (23m 54s):

You brought up some great points. You know, I love the notion parsing. The whole idea of parsing is, is also kind of like so 2001.

Chad (24m 6s):


Shelley (24m 6s):

Like honestly, I remember the sales reps rolling through town saying, you know, they've got the magic sauce for parsing and you know, most of the shit doesn't work. Yeah. You know, I've always had an eye on, on parsing tech, but I love the idea of parsing it out to the job seeker as well. Like, because that's the biggest complaint is like, don't send me job ads for golf director, like please. Right. And let's layer on the fact that the type of work I can do, I can do from anywhere. So it's really going to, I think, turn the job boards on their heads, to figure out a way to help people get the right jobs in front of them.

Shelley (24m 47s):

And you're right for the employers as well.

Chad (24m 49s):

I know there are some top level parsing companies that are out there. I'm wearing a vest from Sovren. They are probably the best in the industry and that's on both sides, parsing resumes, being able to parse jobs, but also going the next step for all of you employers that are listening out there if you aren't putting the right processes, whether they're it's RPA, conversational AI in place, to be able to help your process and also divert those individuals who are not qualified to jobs that could perspectively be qualified to, you're going to take a huge hit on your brand. And that obviously is not going to be a good thing.

Chad (25m 30s):

So I tell you what, let's take a quick break in on the other side, we're talking Iceland, Canada, the UK, and the possible impact all over the world. We'll be right back.

SOVREN PARSER (25m 42s):

You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.

Chad (26m 45s):

All right, Shelley, how does Canada's gender pay gap look? It's gotta be better than the U S right?

Shelley (26m 52s):

Actually, no, I don't think we're any better.

Chad (26m 57s):


Shelley (26m 57s):

No, I'm I'm serious. I really don't think we are again. I think we've got the same sort of, if anything, I, I would say it's even worse.

Chad (27m 6s):


Shelley (27m 6s):

In Canada, because Canadians are really, no, we're really weird when it comes to talking about money. It's considered impolite. Yeah. So you can magnify that when it's women and you know, whether it's my generation or the generations before me or after me, we've never really had any good coaching on how to ask or talk about money. I would say, you know, we're no further ahead. We really aren't.

Chad (27m 33s):

Let me tell you who is! In 2018, Iceland introduced the first policy in the world that requires companies and institutions with more than 25 employees to prove they pay men and women equally for a job and of equal value. The policy is implemented through a job evaluation tool called the equal wage management standard, or simply the system. If companies show, they pay equally for the same positions, they receive certification. Beginning in 2020 certification became a requirement and companies without certification incur a daily fine.

Chad (28m 15s):

That to me, Shelley is the answer past what you were just talking about with Canada. You are a polite, I think that obviously impacts a female's wages and widens the wage gap. Iceland is stepping in. What do you think about government actually stepping in to ensure fairness and equal pay?

Shelley (28m 35s):

Wow! That's a loaded question. I would be in favor of it because, well, no, because I understand our cultural uniqueness and as a country and I'm not trying to stereotype us, but I do know that even from childhood, we, aren't doing much to open up those communication or teach people about economics. So love, love what Iceland is doing because you know, it's one thing to say, you know, we want to get there, it's another thing to actually put a, not really a stick, but I guess a baseball bat. Cause if, if they're being fined per day, it's a little more than just a, Oh, you know, you really need to get on board.

Shelley (29m 21s):

Right. And they gave them two years to get on board.

Chad (29m 23s):

Yeah. Yes.

Shelley (29m 24s):

From what you're saying here and you know, they wanted, so without it, I don't know what the alternative is because why would you opt into it if there's no motivation to opt into it from a corporate perspective. Right. It's just more red tape. So I guess politically it may not be super popular, but what I love about what they've done is they really do understand that they're doing this with a view for the future, right?

Chad (29m 52s):


Shelley (29m 52s):

Yes. You got to start somewhere, but the more you do this, the more you are really ensuring that you're getting people into the workforce, they're being paid equally and it just has this ripple effect on the economy.

Chad (30m 6s):

Yes, it does. And there are three main factors and why Iceland system has succeeded. Number one, the shift of the burden of proof to the employer, instead of to the employee either. So we've always here in the US have waited for the employee to bitch and whine about not getting paid enough. Now it's upon the employer to prove that they are doing the right thing. Number two, demand, evaluation and compliance, which means equal pay certification is only effective when strongly enforced. And then three create a transparent system.

Chad (30m 47s):

I personally think this should be number one. I think this should be every government's first step. Drive transparency, make it mandatory and then everybody knows who is getting fucked. And at that point, as a company has to change what they're doing and overall, you know, the government should be there to provide protections for the people, not focus on protections over the people for the corporations. And I think Iceland's got this right. What do you think?

Shelley (31m 23s):

Wow. Okay. Part of that, like it really kinda zinged me there!

Chad (31m 28s):

What part?

Shelley (31m 29s):

As far as, you know, pulling people's pants down and saying, Oh, you've been exposed. You're like I had this visual in my head of everybody knows who's getting fucked. I mean, okay. I don't know, is it I guess, compliance by humiliation as well, right. I guess I wonder what's the flip side of having this pay transparency. I know some workers would, might say that, you know, it's a little bit of a, you know, when you're publishing people's pay, because I know that the Alberta government did something similar a few years ago and it really had a bit of a backlash as far as people feeling like, do I really want to work somewhere where they publicly publish my wages?

Shelley (32m 13s):

I don't know. Maybe again, it's a Canadian thing, right? Like it feels like a little bit of, I don't know, enforcement by humiliation.

Chad (32m 23s):

But so here's the question though, if we don't do this from these, from this type of standpoint, maybe from a transparency standpoint, all we know are really leading indicators. And most of those leading indicators are that we can see the C-suite and we can see what the composition of the C-suite is. And we know, we know that the fortune 500 companies that 8% of fortune 500 companies have a female CEO only 8%. And by composition, half of the population is female. So therefore we're off 42 percentage points, right out of the gate.

Chad (33m 5s):

Right? So if we understand not just the composition of an organization, but also the Pay composition or the pay equity in an organization, that's the only way we can fix it. So yes. Is it going to shame some organizations? I totally agree, it would. Do they deserve to be shamed? You're God damn right, they do. If they are paying, I have two daughters. If my daughters are getting paid and working their asses off, doing the same job that a male is doing, I want my daughters to get just as much.

Shelley (33m 37s):

You get no argument from me there, no argument, at all. But I think, where you've really got, cause I have I've got a daughter as well. And I know that equal pay certainly for equal work. Absolutely. But I think you've raised another issue. And I hear you talk about it often, so, wow. I can't believe this is really happening. I get to talk to you about this Chad, because the, the percentage of representation of female executives, you know, there's a larger systemic issue, I think. And the pay gap between executives and their workforce is another thing, I hear you talk about a lot, even if we go back in history and we look at the Lords of the land that took taxes off the back of the people.

Shelley (34m 25s):

I think it's throughout human history has always been the case. It's just, now we're able to see it more easily because companies are public. But you know, if we want more representation, I think the solution is also to start investing in education and start because if there's no, we've got to move the talent up the chain so that when there comes open and opportunity, there are women who want the job. There are women who are ready for the job, and yes, we're 42 points away, when we're talking CEOs. But what have we done to ensure that women and all diverse groups are ready when that job comes open, right?

Shelley (35m 12s):

It's about, you know, as much owning your career path and doing everything you can to prepare yourself so that when that executive position comes open, you've at least got a shot.

Chad (35m 23s):

I agree in that, will roll right into talking about an entirely different type of worker being a gig worker. This comes from The battle for gig worker rights has come to Canada. That's right. Shelley, where the Canadian Union of Postal Workers has launched the Gig Workers United campaign. It is the latest in the global movement to increase wages and improve working conditions for gig workers who rely on app based companies for employment. So do you believe this is a response to the UK ruling a couple of weeks ago? They thought, Hey, there's some momentum here we can jump on this?

Shelley (36m 8s):

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, looking back in history as well, what's happened in the past here in Canada as well, where our labor laws are very much in favor of the worker very much in favor. So this does not surprise me at all and is, you know, quite aptly timed. It, I think they also are, everyone's watching what's happened in California. Yes. As far as gig workers. And do they have any rights? Who's protecting them, right? Like if they have no rights. So what happens also as a society, we have to think about, you know, if they get sick, they've got no protection and we all retire someday.

Shelley (36m 51s):

Yes. So this did not surprise me at all. I think this is really something to watch.

Chad (36m 58s):

Yeah. I believe this is just another situation where the government has to be able to step in, to do what's right for the people. And I keep saying this and I'm going to continue to say it, people. We only get one of these people, we only get one life. We've got to ensure that our neighbors have a good life as well. We do and if you have a great life, why shouldn't your neighbor? Right. So overall, whether they're driving, you know, an Uber or doing Door Dash, or they're an executive at a, you know, a fortune 500 company, they deserve good lives. They deserve more than starvation wages.

Chad (37m 39s):

So overall, yeah. I think this along with the last topic is really focused on government reigning in what we've seen since the eighties, is just an unleashing of no more rules for corporate America. They're just running crazy and you not. That's, I think, going to change. So, okay. Shelley, you're wearing me out over here, we're going to take another quick break. And when we come back, we'll discuss whether work from home is just a blip on the radar or if it's here to stay? See you on the other side.

Jobvite (38m 14s):

You know, Steve, it feels like we keep getting pushed to hire more and better candidates with no more budget. Right? I wish there was a way to get better results from what we're doing. Actually, I heard in episode of Chad and Cheese about this framework from Jobvite. Oh yeah. Evolve. It's a technology agnostic framework to help TA teams get better results from their recruiting efforts. And we don't even have to be a Jobvite by customer to use it. I bet we would get better results if we orchestrated all of our efforts. You mean like a centralized process and all of our channels working together? For sure, whether it's job boards, social, or even texting with candidates. Let's do that. I'll send you the link. Cool. I'm going to finish watching this episode of Bridgerton.

Chad (39m 1s):

Hey Shelley, how long have you worked from home? I've worked from home since 2012. Is this kind of a normal thing for you? Or did you have to shift back to home? Because of the pandemic?

Shelley (39m 14s):

I have been working from home since 2014 and I love it. I absolutely love it. The pandemic and the lockdowns really not much changed for me. I actually saved money. Nice. Because I had like a, one of those drop-in offices.

Chad (39m 34s):

Nice. So Goldman Sachs calls work from home an aberration. This is from CNBC Goldman Sachs CEO. David Solomon said that working from home was not a new normal for the investment banking giant calling it an aberration. So the question is, are all old rich guys going fucking crazy or does this in fact make sense for a company like Goldman Sachs?

Shelley (40m 3s):

Oh my God. So yes, like let's, let's call a spade a spade because Goldman Sachs CEO, David Soloman. I don't know if you knew this, but he's actually got a side hustle.

Chad (40m 16s):


Shelley (40m 16s):

Did you know that?

Chad (40m 18s):

Imagine that.

Shelley (40m 19s):

He has a stage name, DJ Diesel, and he performs in nightclubs and music festivals around New York. So not only is he old, but he's, I guess he's trying to be hip!

Chad (40m 30s):

No fucking way!

Shelley (40m 32s):

Yes! I'm dead serious. I'm dead serious. So, so I don't know if he's trying to relate to us or trying to relate to his younger workers, but it just absolutely galls me that you could deny that of all types of companies whose best for remote work would be the financial business. Like, I don't know what he was referring to when he says that they're innovative and collaborative apprenticeship culture. Like, you know, there's a, you know, there's this thing called Zoom. Yeah. Right. Like our or Slack, like have you heard of Slack buddy?

Shelley (41m 14s):

Yes. So yeah. DJ Soul CEO. I think the impact

Chad (41m 19s):

Apprenticeship culture is really what he's, he's getting at. And when you have younger individuals who you're paying starvation wages to, if you're paying them at all, when you get them in, you want to control them very tight. Right. And not to mention, I mean, this organization is really engineered behind 1950s mentality and I'm more of a boiler room type of culture, for the most part. So it almost feels like, again, some organizations that you feel are built for work from home will drag individuals back into the office and make them chain themselves back to the desk because they want that command and control.

Chad (42m 4s):

That 1950s command and control. I guess the big question is how long do you think that'll last? Do you think it'll just take DJ Soul to die off and then the next one in line is like, screw this shit, we're going to work from home. Or do you think this is a long-term situation for some of these organizations?

Shelley (42m 22s):

I believe it is longterm and, and people will speak with their feet. You know, if you believe as Goldman Sachs. Yeah. They got a huge brand and I'm absolutely, I know you're right, that this is very much about command and control and don't, and it is about control and don't change anything because we know this works, especially when you're taking new grads or their apprenticeship program. It just means that we are going to brainwash you into thinking that this is the way it works. Well, I think it's really short-sighted because we already know that, you know, staying with the same company, your whole professional life is just, it's not going to continue the way it did in the fifties.

Shelley (43m 10s):

Right? So I believe workers, especially great talent. They're going to vote with their feet. They may take advantage. I mean, it's good to have Goldman Sachs on your resume because a launch you into what you really want to do.

Chad (43m 23s):

But one thing that they will have Shelley, they will have DJ Soul spinning the tune, spinning the records, spinning the vinyl out of the lunch area, probably you know, every, every Friday or something like that. So good for Goldman Sachs. So Shelley, thank you so much for coming on the show and in giving me a break from Cheeseman, how do you feel?

Shelley (43m 47s):

Oh man, I honestly, my cheeks hurt from smiling. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. I am so appreciative to be part of the show and this was just a blast and I am looking forward to more of the Chad and Cheese show. And please don't stop with the careless whisper. I'm going to put that in there, so sweet.

Chad (44m 16s):

And everybody you can tell Shelley is Canadian because she is sweet. She is kind. And she says, thank you all the time. Thanks again, Shelley, for coming on and we out! That's when you give me a way out.

Shelley (44m 33s):

Sorry. And we out.

OUTRO (45m 20s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

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