Facebook Jobs Invasion

It's a lactose-free episode of The Chad & Cheese podcast with special guest, Canadian podcast superstar, Shelley Billinghurst of The Recruitment Flex.

This week we ask...

- Why is Facebook invading my notifications and feed with jobs?

- Will COVID kill the job board star?

- Is Work From Home just a phase?

- Will Iceland wins the wage gap wars?

- Will spinning the vinyl help Goldman Sachs CEO remote-free strategy?

...and will Canada align with the UK on gig?

You've got questions and we've got Molson and Yukon Jack fueled hypotheses.

Big thanks to our friends at Jobvite, JobAdX, and Sovren for supporting The Chad & Cheese - HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.


Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire.

INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (32s):

Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I and Chad, "Hey, the damn people" Sowash and today I am joined by

Shelly (38s):

Shelley "stay in your own damn country," Billinghurst.

Chad (44s):

And all today's a lactose-free episode apparently Facebook is really serious about this job's thing, will Covid kill the job board star? Is work from home, just a phase, and will Canada aligned with UK on gig? Stay tuned there's more to come.

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JOB AD X (1m 43s):

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Chad (2m 6s):

All right, everybody put your hands together and welcome guest host, Shelley Billinghurst to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Everybody. How you feeling, Shelley?

Shelly (2m 16s):

I'm pretty happy to be here. Tell you I'm living the dream. Thank you for having me on the show Chad.

Chad (2m 22s):

So do you have butterflies, could you sleep last night?

Shelly (2m 25s):

I did have stress dreams. I have to admit, I kept thinking I was going to be late. I'm going to forget to say something. Like, you know, that dream where you have to get to the airport and all these things prevent you from doing?Yeah, that was me last night. So yeah, it's a big day here in the great white North. It's a big day. So thank you for having me.

Chad (2m 46s):

I obviously traded up this week for Shelley while Cheeseman takes her slot on Canada's hit podcast, the Recruitment Flex, and I believe correct me if I'm wrong, Shelley, all 200 people in Canada actually listened to the Recruitment Flex, right?

Shelly (3m 1s):

Yes. Yes. And it's, it's just, it's caught on fire. OUTs. Oh you tease.

Chad (3m 9s):

Geez. Seriously. Give our listeners a quick Twitter bio about you. Who is Shelley?

Shelley (3m 15s):

I am Shelley Billinghurst. I live in the great white North. I'm in the Western part of Canada, very low density population, but we are just a stone's throw from the beautiful Rocky Mountains and the lovely city of Banff. I come to you with let's look, we're just going to go with 20 plus years in recruitment and I'm the president and founder of Hire Value, Inc. We are recruitment marketing advertising.

Chad (3m 43s):

Very nice. Thank you. We are happy to have you. How, how did we actually get you over Serge? Because I think we actually got the, the better part of the deal on this one.

Shelley (3m 53s):

Well, thank you. Thank you. Do you know, I think I just kind of elbowed my way and said, Oh no, like this, this needs to be Shelley and Chad, of course. And, and I think there's some sort of Canadian connection with Mr. Cheeseman, right? He's married to a Canadian. Yeah.

Chad (4m 11s):

We can't even get into Canada right now. What kind of irony is this? We're talking about building a wall on the Southern border, but we can't even get through the Northern.

Shelley (4m 21s):

Okay. So let me clear that up just a little bit. You can come in, but we're going to quarantine you at a government approved hotel at your own expense. And that's even with tested negative for COVID. We're actually going to put you in Canada, hotel jail. You can still come. I mean, like if that's not the biggest, you're not welcome. I don't know what it is.

Chad (4m 44s):

And you're going to charge Waldorf Historia rates. I'm sure.

Shelley (4m 47s):

Do you know, the government is very secretive about what hotels they've chosen. I have no idea if it's like the seediest little hotel somewhere near the airport or the Waldorf, but I do have an idea as to why this is such an extreme reaction. Over the Christmas season there were numerous, very senior government officials who decided that the COVID 'don't travel rule' just didn't apply to them and they were off in the sun taking their families on vacation and coming back after the Christmas break.

Chad (5m 20s):


Shelley (5m 21s):

I know, right. It doesn't apply to them. They just make the laws. They don't have to follow them. There was huge fallout. There were resignations both at the, you know, kind of the state slash provincial level, as well as at the federal level, there was a lot of shame on you. So I think this is like typical overreaction, now, you know, we're gonna make it tough for anybody to leave the country and even tougher, if you need to come up here, my heart goes out to people who have no family here and they need to come and attend, you know, sad events, like funerals and that sort of thing.

Chad (5m 54s):

Right. Let's just make it clear here in the United States we're not embarrassed about anything, obviously because our politicians do whatever the hell they want. The only thing that I think happened where Ted 'dumb ass; Cruz went to Cancun and then found his way back. But for the most part, for the most part, yeah. Our politicians do whatever the hell they want, while they tell you to do something entirely different. So that's normal here in the US you guys are, are much nicer in Canada.

Shelley (6m 25s):

Oh, okay.

Chad (6m 26s):

So I got a little bit of news from the Indeed camp. You want to hear it?

Shelley (6m 32s):

Yeah. Bring it!

Chad (6m 33s):

So a very strong rumors are coming out of the Indeed camp. Indeed's virtual interviewing platform. It's been free to employers and users, and guess what kids, go figure, Indeed's going to start charging you sometime very soon. Now, I personally have not used this platform. Have you, Shelley is, do you think it would be worth the squeeze?

Shelley (6m 55s):

Yes and no. The yes side of this is, well, you know, where are you going to get the candidate traffic? And so when you look at low who the big players are, which we all know, because there are other virtual interviewing platforms, right. That you can subscribe to, but then you've got to pay to get the traffic, right? Like how are you going to advertise it? So I think that's the plus. The downside is, you know, again, you're kind of putting all your eggs in one basket. You've got, I don't know if you could use other platforms to drive traffic or your own organic traffic, that I don't know. What I do know though, is yes, I have actually test driven cause usually in Canada we will see once it's been tested out, they'll roll it out to Canada, as far as features and upgrades.

Shelley (7m 39s):

And I've actually used the tool and found it to be well, considering it was free, super! Well, it did cost you the whatever it costs to advertise. Right?

Chad (7m 49s):


Shelley (7m 49s):

I was impressed. You have to wonder what the evil empire actually has to do behind this? This is another platform I see them bringing to bear. Will it actually integrate with applicant tracking systems? Will it be a system that works outside of the Indeed ecosystem? I doubt it. Yeah. I have not deep dived into how it connects with all the major applicant tracking systems. But I do believe, I mean, it would make sense that you could feed, like whoever you hired just directly into your HRS, it does work outside your applicant tracking system. So good point.

Chad (8m 23s):

Stay tuned for more evil empire shit.

Shelley (8m 26s):

I'm just so not popular.

Chad (8m 29s):

Shout outs. You get, you get the, you get the first shout out. Who do you want to give a shout out to?

Shelley (8m 34s):

Oh my gosh. Okay. Big drum roll. There's there is one real cool kid. One of the coolest kids here in Canada is Will van Middendorf. Will is a guy, he runs three companies and he's also a father of two little kids, but in his spare time, he runs the Canadian recruiters network and is just so awesome to give back the recruiting community here in Canada. So big shout out. Hey, Will, thanks for all you do.

Chad (9m 1s):

Very nice. Very nice. I'm going to give a shout out to Costco who ups their minimum waves to $16 an hour now! Two years ago, they moved their minimum wage to $15 an hour and they're just going to one up, all the bullshit that's happening in Congress right now. So overall, if you do work at Costco, their employees receive up to two bonuses each year, which can be around $4,000 combined. The, the average hourly wage, which include those bonuses are around $24 an hour. Now that's what I call actual wages. Depending on where you live. Right? But overall, $15.

Chad (9m 41s):

Come on guys. That's literally $30,000 a year before taxes. We at least need to go there for a minimum wage.

Shelley (9m 49s):

Nice. Shout out. Can I do another one?

Chad (9m 51s):


Shelley (9m 52s):

So I do want to shout out my buddy, Derek Christiansen, formerly of ZipRecruiter. He's just moved over to Virtual Event Platform. Hmm. What are we just talking about? That it's called Brazen. And so I do understand from Derek that he actually was in an airport and saw you and Joel and went up to you and said, Hey, love the podcast. And you guys were like, meah, whatever stars, fans, do you want me to sign something? I don't know, but he's pretty sure you guys don't remember him, but he was like, I met those guys.

Chad (10m 26s):

That's that's total fake news, number one, but I remember meeting him in, I believe it was Minneapolis airport and we sat down and we actually chatted with him for a little while. So that's fake news. I remember it! Brain like a fricking elephant over here. So yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Awesome. But we love our fans. Shout out to friend of the show, Isabel Kent who sent me some old Overholt and 11 year old rye whiskey. She's trying to broaden my whiskey talent. So thanks Isabelle. It was delicious not to mention. Isabelle also is now the newly appointed executive director of Philly Startup Leaders.

Chad (11m 7s):

If you're one of our many listeners in Philly, you should definitely check them out. They're at phillystartupleaders.org. Congratulations, Isabelle! Happy Birthday to Adam Chambers. The dude is 24 years old living the life. I'm telling you the kid travels. Well, pre COVID put it this way. Kid travels everywhere. He's a founder of his own organization, his own tech called Applichat. And you never know where you're going to find him. He could be in Mexico. He could be in Spain. He's all over the place. He's living and lovin' life. So happy 24th! God, I can't believe 24 years old. Adam Chambers, good job, man. Now on to free stuff. This is where we love our listeners, Shelley.

Chad (11m 52s):

This is going to move the, how much you love your listeners? Watch this. If you want free stuff, you go to Chadcheese.com/free and you register. And here's some of the stuff that you can actually win. T-shirts by emissary.ai. Shelley. I'm sure you're a fan of text recruiting, right?

Shelley (12m 11s):

Mm I am. I am. It's what all the cool kids do, right?

Chad (12m 19s):

It is definitely what all the cool kids do. Go to emissary.ai. Katrina Collier actually sent a picture to us. Gorgeous in her blue, Chad and Cheese t-shirt. Kyle Hagar shared a new pic with his new Chad and Cheese tee. Kyle buddy, you're starting to look like shaggy from Scooby. You need to get rid of that Covid hair dude. Beer by AdZuna that's right. Not just t-shirts beer. We had a late night drink, zoom beer tasting with Dennis Tupper from CVS. He was our latest winner and it's always fun to just sit back and enjoy a drink or two with our listeners and this month's winner drum roll, please ...

Chad (13m 6s):

iS David Bernstein from Job Sync. That's right, David.

Shelley (13m 13s):

I know him!

Chad (13m 14s):

Bernstein from JobSync. You might remember him. He is the Steven Seagal of recruiting.

Shelley (13m 21s):

That's right. He's a great guy. He really is. And he's got just the nicest little pony tail going on. He's a great guy.

Chad (13m 28s):


Shelley (13m 29s):

Lucky guy!

Chad (13m 29s):

Exactly what he wants to hear, nicest ponytail supposed to be a dangerous ponytail. It's supposed to be dangerous. Whiskey by Sovren that's right, kids Sovren has AI so human you'll want to get drunk with it. Are you a big fan of AI? Shelley? Do they have AI in Canada?

Shelley (13m 48s):

You are just something else. Of course, we even made our own!

Chad (13m 53s):

Made your own?

Shelley (13m 56s):

We have technology in Canada. Believe it or not, Chad, we do. And we actually have tech startups here in Canada. We actually have a tech community. Can you believe that? I know. I know it shocking.

Chad (14m 6s):

No I love it. I love to hear these things. Reports from the great white North stay tuned because next week we're actually going to announce the winner of the whiskey giveaway from Sovren this week. And in, remember you get two bottles of whiskey, one from Chad and one from Cheese. So yeah, what you guys should do, you and Serge, Shelley should actually have like a Yukon Jack Canadian whiskey giveaway or something like that. That sounds like fun.

Shelley (14m 38s):

Oh yeah. I'm on it. Like we'll work it into the budget because you know, we're not making any money right?

Chad (14m 45s):


Shelley (14m 46s):

We do this for free. Yes.

Chad (14m 47s):

Do you do it for the love?

Shelley (14m 49s):

Yes, we do. And so that's on agenda. Thank you. Nope.

Chad (14m 53s):

You're welcome. Made time for topics. Okay. So over the last couple of weeks, we've either talked about or mentioned in passing how Facebook is getting aggressive in scraping jobs. Some job sites are seeing activity that seemed like Facebook was just testing, you know, like intermittent scraping once a week, you know, amateur kind of stuff. Well, this week I had jobs in my Facebook notifications and feed itself. So it looks like they're actually looking to roll out a more aggressive user side of the house. So the user experience, you should start seeing more jobs.

Chad (15m 34s):

The thing that I'm trying to figure out, am I just a test subject? Are you seeing this kind of stuff? Shelley, are you on Facebook that much?

Shelley (15m 41s):

We are like for both the company and me personally. And so I think you must be part of a test group or as I think what I say see most of the time, is that they'll test it out in the U S and then we'll see it in Canada sometime, maybe 18 months down the road, sometimes not at all, but, you know, I wonder, so what you're seeing, is it relevant? Like, is it actually anywhere close? Like yeah.

Chad (16m 8s):

No, not even close. Yeah. Okay. So it's interesting because first and foremost, Facebook doesn't have enough of my information. I don't have my resume. I don't have like job history, like LinkedIn does. So the matching is total shit in itself, but it looks like they're at least trying, you see them trying, but it feels like amateur hour.

Shelley (16m 33s):

I agree. I agree. And do you know, I think they tried this before and it kind of fell flat, but, but I think maybe in some markets, I've heard that in some markets it's super popular and it's doing really well. I think in some markets, maybe it's like, Oh cool, man, like a golf director job. Ooh. Yeah, never thought of that.

Chad (16m 56s):

Exactly. I got, I got a golf director job in my feed, anything that said director, because I think I had like titles of what I've done, but I didn't have really any context provided to the titles. And obviously they have no type of ontology with regard to actual job titles as well. So I think they're really going to have to do a much better job because from what I'm hearing is, they're just scraping once per week. And that's horrible. You're going to get a lot of dead links. What does this mean for Indeed? I mean, everybody other than you, Shelley hates Indeed. So they're going to look for exit strategies.

Chad (17m 36s):

This is, this is going to be one of them.

Shelley (17m 38s):

That's not true!

Chad (17m 39s):

This is going to be one of those.

Shelley (17m 41s):

Well, so all you're doing is you're just trading one hater, for another, like, honestly, because if it were Google and Google for Jobs and I mean, they own everything.

Chad (17m 51s):


Shelley (17m 51s):

I mean come on. Like if they get into the, if they really go hard at and they then become kind of the next tidal wave, well then you're just going to hate Google. So, you know, it's we just decide who we're going to hate this month. So let me, let me lay some Canadian level on ya.

Chad (18m 6s):


Shelley (18m 7s):

Just chill man. Like, honestly, you're so salty!

Chad (18m 11s):

But Indeed is not a lifestyle platform. Right? Facebook and Google are both lifestyle platforms. These are things that we use on a daily basis when we're not looking for jobs. So these are a part of our daily routine. When Google starts feeding relevant jobs, when Facebook starts feeding relevant jobs, that's going to impact Indeed and all the other job boards in a very, very negative way. Don't you think?

Shelley (18m 41s):

Of course everyone's, you know, but I've heard it before. You know, I don't know if I mentioned I've been in the recruiting game for 20 plus years and I've seen it before. I just don't know. I mean, I don't have like you, I don't have a lot of confidence that they're going to do something so incredibly innovative and fun and easy that candidates go, I'm going to go look over here for work.

Chad (19m 6s):

Yeah. But I think what we're seeing is if you are a part of this platform and you use it every single day, it's going to be fed to you no matter what I mean, it's going to be more force fed than anything else and it'll get better. They'll get more data. They'll do those things better. I guess the big question is they seem to be going very aggressive at this now Facebook does. And we're also hearing, at least last week, we talked to Arran Stewart for the CVO of jobs.com. And he said that his Google for Jobs, traffic is actually better than the Google organic traffic. So it seems like there's more aggressive steps being taken by both organizations.

Chad (19m 48s):

The big question I'm hearing, and I agree a hundred percent. I actually worked with the Google-based team back in the day if you talk about dating yourself, we've seen these big companies fail before, because this is not their wheelhouse. The big question is what kind of debts, whether they're an expert or not, what kind of debt they will actually make.

Shelley (20m 7s):

It's an interesting idea, but it's not their core business. Yeah.

Chad (20m 11s):

Yeah. Well, that being said, Facebook and Google are getting into the jobs game. That that's one thing, but how does the rise in remote and work from home impact job boards?

Shelley (20m 23s):

Can I chime in on this?

Chad (20m 24s):

Oh yeah.

Shelley (20m 25s):

Oh, okay. So love the job board business it's but it's been around a long time too, right? Like it's I would have thought by now we would have invented something better, but other than type in job title and location, right? Like really? We're really looking, I guess we're looking to you Americans to invent something better. Yeah. It was interesting to consider what this is going to mean for employees. I know certainly here in candidates, it's starting to get safer to go back to work or bring people back to the office, but do they want to correct me if I'm wrong here Chad, but if you're unmarried and under the age of 30, you're probably pretty lonely.

Shelley (21m 6s):

And going back to the office is a good way to meet people. Shall we say? Or I don't know hookup, right?

Chad (21m 14s):


Shelley (21m 14s):

But I think it's the older workers who are like, you know, I'm okay. Let me just kind of judge up my house and I'm good. Like I don't miss the commute. I don't miss the dropping my kids off at six o'clock in the morning at daycare to drive for an hour and a half to get to the office.

Chad (21m 35s):

I see two issues right out of the gate. Number one, no matter what happens, they're going to be a contingent that go back to work. They're going to be a contingent that have a hybrid scenario. It doesn't matter what happens. Remote jobs are still going to explode in the coming months. How will job seekers manage that large influx of jobs that they will see from all over the country? Right? It's going to be information overload because most of the job boards will just do one thing. They're going to add a remote as location, which is what they've already done. And that doesn't fix the problem. What we're doing at that point is we are tagging everything that we have with remote.

Chad (22m 17s):

And then we were sending all of these jobs to job seekers who were perspectively qualified for those jobs, but might be across the country. Now, number two, this is a harder question for employers because now employers who are putting the remote tag on those jobs are going to receive a huge influx of job seekers from all over the country. So I have one answer when we're talking about technology and we're talking about job boards, and I think this is kind of like the first step. First off, this is a great opportunity for job boards to use the information already available to them. And then ask for more. This means top of the line parsing and matching tech is not a nice to have.

Chad (23m 1s):

It is a must have, because what will happen at that point is I can feed you jobs that are more relevant to you, instead of just sending you everything that is a quote unquote "sales job" that is remote and in my database and just totally overloading the job seeker. And then on the other side, overloading t