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Hirevue says "Buyer Beware"

Tired of hearing about unicorns in the recruitment space? Doesn't matter, because the parade of glitter-pooping horses continues this week with a double-banger that includes Oyster and Clipboard getting to that billion-dollar valuation. Next, two companies worth well north of a billion, Apple and Starbucks, are in the news, both dealing with unionization efforts from employees.

What else?

  • Hirevue passes the buck,

  • California goes after A.I. in recruiting

  • New York State says YES to transparency in monitoring employees.

  • Then a few tequila shots end the show

  • It's roughly 45 mins. you'll never get back.

Sorry, not sorry :)


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (22s):

Oh yeah. Netflix stock crash 35% this week. And our traffic spiked 350,000,000%! Coincidence? I think not. Hi kids you're tuned into the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host Joel "cheese is the new black" Cheeseman.

Chad (41s):

And this is Chad "never been to Disney World" Sowash.

Joel (45s):

And on this week's podcast, Oyster tells Remote to hold its beer. HireVue says buyer beware. And the days of secretly monitoring your employees may be coming to an end. Can you dig it? I knew that you could we'll be right back.

Chad (1m 2s):

Okay. So you, you've got to find it hilarious when reporters are talking about Disney World moving out of Florida, right? Is it just me?

Joel (1m 14s):

Is that a new thing? Is that new? I mean, I know that DeSantis is going after their, I guess, special status.

Chad (1m 23s):


Joel (1m 23s):

But I haven't heard that they're looking to move and where the hell would they move Texas? I mean, they're already got Disneyland in California. I don't know where the hell they would go.

Chad (1m 33s):

Yeah. They're going to have the same problems in Texas that they have in Florida. But I mean, Disney World has been their own like sovereign nation in Florida. And I mean, seriously, Orlando was nothing but a pit prior to that anyway. Right?

Joel (1m 46s):

A hot pit.

Chad (1m 49s):

Nasty fucking pit. But yeah, it's just, it's hilarious. I mean, it's nothing but spinning that we see out there, Disney World. I've never been to it, but many of my friends have, and they love it and they say it's gigantic. It's bigger than any city.

Joel (2m 3s):

You've never been to Disney World.

Chad (2m 6s):

No, for what?

Joel (2m 8s):

For fun. It's the happiest place on earth. You got to go to Disney World, man. Come on.

Chad (2m 13s):

I took my kids to Europe for three weeks. They liked that.

Joel (2m 17s):

This explains why you're so angry all the time. Just go to Disney World for God's sakes. Goodness, goodness. Yeah. Let's play political football with Disney. That seems like a good idea.

Chad (2m 27s):

It doesn't. It does not.

Joel (2m 30s):

All right. Should we get to shout outs or you want a small talk, some more?

Chad (2m 33s):

Shout outs. So let me start off with Lydia Hoefel, who tagged us in a LinkedIn post, where she shared a news clipping from the Cleveland Press in 1972, which talked about a local company promoting the four day workweek. Lydia found it interesting that today we think a four day workweek is a new concept. It's not. So thanks for sharing, Lydia and keep it coming.

Joel (2m 59s):

Nice. Cleveland Press. Yes. Highlight a paper that exists no longer. It's all about the Plain Dealer. I'm going to go tech on mine. I'm going to give a shout out to iRobot.

sfx (3m 11s):

Shall we play a game?

Joel (3m 14s):

The vacuum cleaner, Chad.

Chad (3m 16s):

Will Smith?

Joel (3m 15s):

As seen on television. Okay? Yeah, not the movie, not the movie. So in celebration of national robotics week, that was news to me too. iRobot has launched the Create Three Educational robot based on the robot vacuum minus the actual vacuuming. In so doing the company says it's delivering STEM tools to all levels of the educational community, empowering the next generation of engineers, scientists, and enthusiasts to do more enabling students, educators, and developers, to be in the driver's seat of robotics exploration, allowing them to quote "one day, discover new ways for robots to benefit society and quote, we're always talking about companies need to do a better job of integrating with schools, particularly high schools and iRobot is walking the walk.

Joel (4m 3s):

So shout out to iRobot.

sfx (4m 6s):

Shall we play a game?

Chad (4m 6s):

Yeah. Gotta love that. Every kid that that should actually be a toy under the Christmas tree. I mean, you have this almost, it was like an erector set when we were growing up. Right. We were building shit.

Joel (4m 17s):

Lincoln Logs.

Chad (4m 18s):

Same thing, dude. Same thing. Just more sophisticated obviously, also with software. So I mean you can actually program it. So you get the hands-on with the technical piece. And then also the development stuff. I mean, I love that.

Joel (4m 32s):

Shout out to iRobot.

Chad (4m 34s):

Shout out to Corey Kapner over at RecruitEx, he was on a road trip with his wife and he pinned me to have lunch last week as he was passing through. So it was great to sit down, have a beer, lunch, great guy from the industry and loyal listener, stopping by and paying for lunch. That was awesome too. I didn't mind that.

Joel (4m 52s):

Oh, that's nice. That's nice. Where'd you take him what?

Chad (4m 55s):

To Upland right on the river. Yeah.

Joel (4m 57s):

Okay. Beautiful. Yeah. You got to see Columbus. You take them around a little bit, see the architecture and all the highlights of Columbus. It's a lovely town.

Chad (5m 4s):

He had to unass the area they had to go to Annapolis.

Joel (5m 8s):

Gotcha. I don't know if there's Columbus, Indiana in the metaverse but there sure as hell should be. My second shout out, Goes to SOMNIUM SPACE. Hopefully I'm saying that correctly, Chad, you know the show Download Amazon prime, right? Yes.

Chad (5m 23s):

It's exactly what I thought of.

Joel (5m 26s):

Yeah, exactly. So well, SOMNIUM SPACE is developing a way for people to talk to their loved ones even after they die. They call it live forever mode live forever, one of Oasis's best songs, by the way, by collecting huge amounts of data on users, including the movements and sounds users make when interacting in SOMNIUM SPACE. You'll be able to engage with people, including family and friends after you've passed away. Yes. Rejoice. It's looking like our podcast will live forever, Chad. Shout out to SOMNIUM SPACE.

Chad (6m 0s):

That's scary as shit. Oh my God. So a shout out to Tina Lyons, our marketing friends from AMS Alexander Mann Solutions. Well she's not there anymore, she actually landed a new gig at Alero, startup. Alero. Okay. But it's kind of weird. I mean, we talked about Janette Leads coming into to AMS and Hourly. Quincy wins the 2022 Best Women in RPO list and then she's gone and now Tina is gone, one of their major marketing top guns. So, you know, we might have to reach out and see what's going on.

Joel (6m 38s):

Yeah. Be careful. What are you saying?

Chad (6m 39s):

I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. That's the problem.

Joel (6m 43s):

Something's a miss at the Circle K, I think is what you're saying.

Chad (6m 47s):

That's exactly right.

Joel (6m 47s):

We need to get Jeanette on the phone and see what's going on at AMS Hourly. Shout out to SellX. This got my attention. Cause it looks like sex. When you see the, the news item. So SellX provides access to on-demand sales talent who are empowered to work with anyone anywhere at launch over 150 companies, including Deel or utilizing SellX to reduce risks, cost, and time associated with building, managing, scaling, and retaining an in-house sales development team. Yet another reason companies don't actually have to hire people in 2022, shout out to SellX.

Joel (7m 28s):

And I think the contract sales team thing is a under-reported, under-appreciated opportunity. I expect more companies to follow SellX lead and create teams that people can just take off a shelf and sell their product.

Chad (7m 43s):

Totally agree. Which means you have to have a product that's easy to articulate. We'll talk about that later. My next shout-out believe it or not goes to Pabst Blue Ribbon, who would have fucking thought that I would give Pabst a shout out? Anyway Pabst Blue Ribbon Easter kegs. So instead of hiding, painted Easter eggs, Pabst hid pastel painted beer kegs, which their brand refers to as kegs, get it Easter kegs anywhere around Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Tampa, and Portland last Saturday, April 16th.

Chad (8m 24s):

Consumers obviously had to be age 21 or older, but if they found the keg, they could keep it. And all of this was pretty much worked off of social. You got the clues on social media. So this was an awesome marketing campaign, I think.

Joel (8m 41s):

Yeah. Giddy up to PBR, the best cheap beer in the world, by the way. By the way, for July, they put out their hundred case option for PBR. It's like a 10 yard long case of beer. Anyway, these were these actual kegs or pony kegs.

Chad (8m 59s):

I think they're actual kegs.

Joel (9m 1s):

Holy crap. Kegs are heavy, dude. Like you don't just pick them up and go, you got to like deal with a truck or something. Anyway. Great idea. Probably some great pictures while people were trying to figure out how do I get this thing to my house?

Chad (9m 14s):


Joel (9m 15s):

Shout out to PBR and speaking of beer, Chad, yes. Listeners. If they didn't know this can get free beer from Chad and Cheese or at least a chance to, that's right. If they just go to and we're giving away, get this Chad, we're giving away t-shirts from Emissary, beer from our friends at Pillar. And we're giving away whiskey from our homeys at Textkernel. So if you haven't got on that, kids go to and sign up for the chance to win free beer whiskey and/or t-shirts

Chad (9m 46s):

It's too easy. It's just too easy. Not to mention if you've been missing free. You probably you, I hope you didn't miss pods that happened earlier this week, we had Lee Henderson, AKA HR Manifesto on. And if you miss that interview, you got to check it out. She's a legit corporate HR leader who is killing it on TikTok, Instagram, and a bunch of different social media platforms. On TikTok alone she has over 450,000 followers and over 9 million likes. So check that out. It's called HR Manifesto. We also did the Europe show with Lieven of course, and guest straight out of an Irish pub Neil Dunwoody.

sfx (10m 30s):

I can make you rich.

Chad (10m 34s):

That's right, baby. We're talking handshakes, European expansion, economy and whack pods is a great one. That was a good one.

Joel (10m 41s):

Spank pods, rank pods, shout out to Pando. Our friends at Pando sent both of us a box full of goodies, which we always love to get even if it's not brown and drinkable, we still love the free deliveries. So shout out to Pandologic. Birthdays, not a lot, but let's highlight those real quick listeners. Matt Lozar, Steve Gilbert and Shama Hyde, who I think was a former direct employers keynote. Do I have that right?

Chad (11m 10s):

I can't remember.

Joel (11m 11s):

Okay. Yeah. We were all drunk and the aughts anyway, but anyway, shout out to them, celebrating a birthday this week, thanks for listening everybody.

Chad (11m 21s):

Excellent. So events kids. Okay. So if you haven't got your tickets for Belgium and you're in Europe, once again, what the hell are you waiting for? Not to mention Cheeseman have you seen where we're going to be set up in Belgium for the E-recruitment Congress? Have you seen the layout?

Joel (11m 38s):

I've seen the map, the blueprint, whatever they're calling it. Yes. I have seen it.

Chad (11m 42s):

We're in a balcony with a bar.

Joel (11m 46s):

We're the Muppets. We're the Muppets with beer.

Chad (11m 47s):

No, I was going to say those guys got nothing on us. Cause they didn't, unless they had flasks that we couldn't see, but yeah, no, we've got a bar and we're going to have a balcony. We're going to be from my understanding streaming alive on LinkedIn. Yeah. I think the E-recruitment Congress House of HR, Lieven, Rika, those guys have this shit nailed down. So I'm looking forward to that. Not to mention, did I not hear that we're going to be on a boat?

Joel (12m 14s):

We're supposed to be on a boat. We have verbal commitment that we'll be on a boat. And this I assume is not some fishing boat or a pontoon boat, but maybe yacht type boat from one of our favorite sponsors. So stay tuned for that kids. There may be a live show from a boat, which will break all precedent for Chad and Cheese and maybe peak Chad and Cheese and it's all downhill from that.

Chad (12m 39s):

Who knows?

Joel (12m 40s):

But who knows? Who knows? And by the way, Chad, not just a bar, not just a bar with beer, but a bar with Belgian beer, which I have to remind everyone is the best beer in the world. So yeah, this could spell trouble. Make sure we wear life jackets. Please make sure I'm wearing a life jacket on this boat.

Chad (13m 2s):

Well then, then we come back and we're going to Vegas for UNLEASH. So we'll have now have you seen the blueprint for where we're going to be on the Florida UNLEASH?

Joel (13m 10s):

I have. And I'm not sure we could be more in the center of everything at UNLEASH. That could be dangerous.

Chad (13m 16s):

Yes. Yes. The, the pot, the Chad and Cheese podcast pit is set up literally in the middle of everything, not to mention during UNLEASH this is like an after hours event. If you receive a VIP party invite from Pandologic or maybe directly from yours, truly Chad and Cheese, you'd be smart to RSVP. Just think Chad and Cheese in a speakeasy, no mics, no recording. Just great off the record discussion about the great things that are happening in the industry, the wrong things that are happening in the industry, talking talent, landscape, technology, industry, the whole kit and caboodle. So like I'd said, if you get an invite, make sure that you RSVP because space is limited by design.

Chad (14m 2s):

We want a small group.

Joel (14m 3s):

The rules are, there are no rules! Cats and dogs living together in a speakeasy. I'm pretty excited about Vegas

Chad (14m 17s):

Pandos got it.

Joel (14m 18s):

All right, Chad. Well, you know how we do?

sfx (14m 25s):

Pink Fluffy Unicorn music.

Joel (14m 26s):

Oh yeah. Oyster an HR platform aimed at remote workers, stop me if you've heard this one before, announced Wednesday that it has surpassed a $1 billion valuation after closing a $150 million Series C round. Notable backers include Salesforce Ventures and LinkedIn. Hm. The funding round comes less than a year after a $50 million Series B valuing the company at $475 million at the time. And just two years since it's January launch in 2020 Oyster has grown from 17 employees in 2020 to 500 employees in over 70 countries, women make up 50% of its leadership team and 60% of its employee base, which it was quick to highlight in its news release.

Joel (15m 13s):

Sounds like this oysters making pearls, Chad thoughts?

Chad (15m 17s):


Joel (15m 18s):

That's gold baby.

Chad (15m 20s):

We first, I think reported on Remote and Oyster together back in April of 2020. Remote came out of the barrel hot with simple to the point messaging and vision where Oyster was a nebulous blob of catchphrases. Back then, I mean, I was personally embarrassed for their marketing department back then, but today kids, a couple of years later, Oyster seems to have pulled it together. Their marketing pitch is quote, "hire anywhere, thrive everywhere". I love that. "We're your trusted partner for expanding your team across borders, higher pay and care for teammates across the globe"

Chad (16m 1s):

end quote. They've started to pull their messaging together, which is amazing. So that to me deserves an applause. They obviously heard the episode that, you know, we put out in April of 2020, but I think it's important to remember, especially for founders or those looking to become founders, you can have an amazing product, but if you don't have a tight vision and marketing message for your team, especially your sales peeps, even though you'd like to think your product sells itself, it never usually does. So you got to tighten your shit up, which Oyster did. And they did it in pretty quick fashion.

Joel (16m 35s):

Marketing one-on-one lessons from Chad Sowash kids. You didn't think you'd get that today. Did you?

Chad (16m 39s):

You're welcome.

Joel (16m 40s):

Okay. Let's summarize here for a second and look at the landscape Deel. That's D-e-e-l, has raised $629 million remote has raised a total of $496,000,000, Eightfold $396 million and Oyster is now at $224 million. When Remote raise $300 million earlier this month I asked who would be the Pepsi to it's Coke. I'm not sure, not sure Oyster can be the Pepsi, but maybe they can settle for being Dr. Pepper or Fanta, which are both perfectly enjoyable sodas. Their differentiator, talking about marketing, they talk a lot on their release about DEI and B and that messaging and imagery is pretty strong on their site as well.

Joel (17m 25s):

I think it's a smart position to take whereas most of the others are really high in tech and efficiencies. And I think it will be a factor in many prospects in terms of deciding to use Oyster over other competitors. Remote work isn't going away and all these companies have timed the market, whether on purpose or accidentally, just right and the money flowing into their businesses is no surprise. I feel like we'll be talking about these businesses a lot, the next five plus years. Where they all take their companies will be fascinating to watch and talk about. Minor prediction the MNA is going to be hot. I think these companies are going to be buying a lot of businesses to help grow their footprint globally.

Joel (18m 5s):

And that'll be fun to talk about on a podcast, like the Chad and Cheese podcast

Chad (18m 11s):

On a podcast.

Joel (18m 12s):

On a podcast, on a boat.

Chad (18m 14s):

One of the quotes that I saw for the press release was pretty awesome. It says "Oyster has created a vibrant team of 500 employees, with employees in over 60 countries, a diverse leadership team and an employee base that has over 60% female. The company enjoys one of the highest employee engagement scores in its class. Oyster is proof that companies don't need an office to create highly engaged culture. They just need a compelling mission, demonstrated impact and clear core values." Even though I hate Oyster's color scheme still, I think I'm falling in love for this organization because they are again, they came out of the barrel and they were cold.

Chad (18m 57s):

I mean, they were cold. You didn't know what they did. Now they've tightened so many things up and you know, hence I think this, this funding, the big question is, are they taking enough because this TAM for them is fucking humongous. So the question is, have they taken enough if they haven't? I'm sure there will be more funds available for another round,

Joel (19m 21s):

For sure. What do you like to call to It's the nice Indeed or the friendly Indeed?

Chad (19m 30s):

Polite Indeed.

Joel (19m 31s):

These guys feel like the polite remote solution. They feel like they're nice and warm and fuzzy. And I think that'll will appeal to a lot of people. A lot of buyers. Speaking of buyers, Chad, you might've heard the healthcare industry is kind of hot right now, which brings us to Clipboard Health, a San Francisco based marketplace that matches nurses with open shifts at nearby healthcare facilities. They announced it had raised $80 million over two unannounced rounds to $50 million series B round in 2021 and a $30 million series C round this year at a $1.3 billion valuation Chad. You know what that means?

sfx (20m 11s):

Pink Fluffy Unicorn music.

Joel (20m 12s):

I get to play the unicorn soundbite. Using the platform facilities can post shifts, they need to fill, and healthcare workers can book these shifts, managing their schedules via Clipboards mobile app competitors include Nurse Dash, Incredible Health, Intelycare, which we covered a few weeks ago. CareRev and Nomad Health. Chad, what are your thoughts on the gig economy? A little bit of that coming to the healthcare industry.

Chad (20m 37s):

I think it's interesting because we know that there's a huge problem here and there has been for decades, right? I think it's interesting the funding that they're getting or the funding that they're not getting, we're talking, we just talked about, you know, a group of that are getting, you know, half a billion dollars in funding. And these guys they're either so goddamn good that they don't need the money or they need, you know, some somebody pitching better. I'm not sure, but the healthcare talent market, it has been a mess, not enough talent for everyday lifesaving positions, which is why two weeks ago we talked about Intelycare, like you'd said, who received $115 million in Series C.

Chad (21m 19s):

Clipboard is on their Series C and they're under a hundred million. It's a real problem that needs solved being the whole, not finding enough talent, not having enough talent and not being able to position the talent that you do have in the right shifts. But to make it easier for those who are qualified yet, maybe even semi-retired or retired, it's got to get easier for those workers to be able to pick up shifts here and there where they want. Flexibility is the biggest key, I think.

Joel (21m 50s):


Chad (21m 50s):

Think of it for like Uber drivers. They're bored. You're at home. You flip on the app and then you go and you pick somebody up, right? It's the same thing for this type of app, especially for individuals who might be working a regular shift, but they want to pick up more time at another facility that's local. The thing is though Clipboard is currently in 30 cities. This cash should be focused on building that out to 300 cities. They really need, because this is so hyper-local, they need to be partnering with nursing unions, nursing schools and those types of talent pools so that they can map the local markets.

Chad (22m 33s):

Because if they go to these local markets with the nurses already mapped into it, at least a good amount or a good start, they own the market at that point.

Joel (22m 42s):


Chad (22m 42s):

I think many of these platforms are going in trying to sell this as SAAS opportunity to healthcare systems. If you bring the pool and you bring the commoditized app with you, man, you just fucking won.

Joel (22m 58s):

Yeah. Look, you have, I think 77, 79 million baby boomers. They're not getting any healthier for the most part.

Chad (23m 8s):


Joel (23m 8s):

And if you don't have nurses, you're out of business as a hospital that needed to care for these folks. So this was sort of an easy prediction that these types of businesses that offered flexibility would come around. I, the Uber thing is interesting because I wonder if you'll get into some sort of like market driven salaries or opportunities. So in other words, if you work during the day, you make more than at night, or if you work during major holidays or when, when traffic is higher, like surge pricing. I wonder if that, that comes into play with some of these, but overall, I think you can almost copy and paste what I said about Intelycare a few weeks ago, you know, one in four nursing degrees actually practice nursing.

Joel (23m 51s):

That's a real problem. Flexibility will help get some of them back, particularly even ones that maybe have retired. Nursing has a tough job. And I think adding elements of the gig economy, those being flexibility, freedom, family time, taking care of elder parents, whatever, all paramount for folks. The companies like Clipboard, who can provide a hybrid between full-time brick and mortar work and the gig economy will thrive. I have a bit of a prediction though, as I'm basically regurgitating my Intelycare commentary, my prediction is ZipRecruiter will acquire one of these companies in the next 12 months.

Joel (24m 31s):

Why you ask? One. It's a good idea. And two, they need to juice their anemic stock price that's been going nowhere since its IPO, even though we're in the hottest labor market in 20 years. I think ZipRecruiter needs to get on the healthcare tip and buy one of these companies that are providing a gig economy perspective on nursing jobs.

Chad (24m 50s):


Joel (24m 51s):

But that's just me. We'll see what happens.

Chad (24m 53s):

I don't see that happening. I do see obviously, like you'd said the market, we saw this coming first and foremost, even before the pandemic. Then we had a pandemic. And the next thing you know, you have all these nurses and these healthcare workers who are burnt the fuck out, just trying to get, you know, normal Billy Bob to wear his fucking mask in the emergency room. I mean, they took enough shit right now. They want to breathe. That's fine. Give them flexibility. Give them the opportunity to at least come back. Because much, like you said, most of those nurses who are certified and they have degrees, they're not doing the job.

Chad (25m 37s):

It's the exact same issue that we're seeing in trucking.

Joel (25m 39s):

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think those two professions are some of the most important in our economy, if not the world and anything that we can do, whether it be private market or public efforts is a good thing because it keepsn the engine running. Trust me. Yeah.

Chad (25m 56s):

Oh God yeah.

Joel (25m 57s):

And speaking of keeping the engine running, Chad, let's take a quick break and pay some bills and then we'll talk about privacy and HireVue.

Chad (26m 7s):

Those two things don't go together. Privacy, HireVue. Go ahead. Go ahead and tell me what we're doing.

Joel (26m 13s):

Oh, that's like a hair sandwich. That's just not tasty at all. All right. So Chad states are getting punchy. Those are your words, which I put in there. So let's start with New York State. New York, you know, is already making transparency in salaries, the law of the land and they're not finished. In New York, beginning on May 7th, which is right around the corner. All private employers in New York State will be required to notify employees of electronic monitoring in the workplace. Any thoughts on that Chad? Obviously, I think they know that their emails are monitored, but maybe some other things would be a little surprising to them.

Joel (26m 53s):

What do you think about this transparency?

Chad (26m 57s):

Yeah, I like that New York is really pressing transparency. New York City is looking for wage transparency. Now you have the state, who's looking to be transparent and basically just say, you know, dear employee, you work for a company that doesn't trust you and since you've been working from home, we feel like we've lost control. Right? And I think that's, again, we talked about this last week. Many of these companies are in that head space right now. This is something that is incredibly uncomfortable for them because they went through the ranks in the office. This is something that we had to do because of the pandemic. Now that we're all getting used to it.

Chad (27m 41s):

They need to find new ways to quote unquote "control" their people, ask them why they weren't on the phone from, you know, X, you know, this hour to this hour, or what have you, instead of providing true autonomy, right? If an individual is actually making their quota, they're making their goals. They're, they're hitting their phase lines on projects. Leave them the fuck alone. Right. This to me, I think again, it's transparency that everybody needs.

Joel (28m 7s):

It should be called the Jeffrey Toobin law. Just kidding. So you're basically saying that the frog, if it's being boiled should know exactly the temperature that it's being boiled at over time. Yeah. I think this is one of the more interesting news items that we sort of threw up for this week. Do companies have to disclose that they're using a service like Fama, for example, which reviews social media activity to employees and will employees care? I think it makes employers less likely to go outside of email and texts when monitoring employees. I mean, there are a lot of services that monitor Slack messages. There are services, not only social media, but it looks at your text messages and things like that.

Joel (28m 47s):

I think that will surprise a lot of employees. And I think that it will probably make companies less likely to go outside of the box in terms of how they monitor their employees. And also I think it will bring up the question in interviews, knowing that it's part of the law that interviewees will ask exactly how will I be monitored as an employee? And I think those are healthy questions that companies should have with prospective candidates.

Chad (29m 18s):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and if an individual takes that position, they should know that they're being monitored. I mean, that's just, it's fairly simple.

Joel (29m 26s):

Well, let's go fly over the Midwest and much of the west and go to California. A newly proposed amendment to California's hiring discrimination laws would make AI powered employment decision-making software, a source of legal liability. Chad thoughts on California, the initiative on illegal liabilities for AI recruitment.

Chad (29m 49s):

Yeah. So I mean, there's some things that I don't like and things that I do like. I'm going to start off with the things that I think are unnecessary. First off in most of the texts, they do point out problems that exist, hooray for them. But we already have regulations on the books and enforcement agencies like the EEOC and OFCCP that focus on these issues. What California should be pressing are the number of compliance audits for fortune 500 companies, not wasting paper and pandering. This to me feels more pandering than it does anything else. But what I did like is quote, "the proposed also specifically mentions that vendors must maintain records for each customer it trains models for".

Chad (30m 35s):

Why do I like this? Because it holds the vendors feet to the fire training data and monitoring the algorithm behaviors. You've got to do that. You can't just allow an algorithm to go Amazon.

Joel (30m 51s):

It went Amazon man and went full Amazon on that one.

Chad (30m 54s):


Joel (30m 54s):

Yeah. I think the question for California to me is what will constitute quote, "AI powered employment, decision making" end quote. That's a pretty gray area and it will be left up to the courts to decide. But as we know that HR's job is largely to keep the company out of court. What if every recruitment tech that touts AI is suddenly toxic to use in California, which makes all these vendors who tout AI a hot potato for potential buyers. And I think that could be a really devastating situation for a lot of companies that are using layers of AI in their products. Because even if it's legal, if companies feel like, oh shit, we're not touching that, it could be a real hindrance into buying those products.

Joel (31m 42s):

And speaking of devastating, you mentioned HireVue

Chad (31m 45s):


Joel (31m 45s):

And hot potatoes. So let's jump to HireVue and what it could mean for that. So in light of the news out of California, HireVue is passing the buck to employers apparently, after getting in trouble in Illinois with their facial recognition, they now have an AI explainability statement on their website. It sounds pretty cool. Huh? I don't know maybe not, said Susan Scott Parker, founder of Scott Parker International and global expert and thought leader on disability. She said this on LinkedIn quote, "HireVue have clarified that buyers of their HR technologies must indeed be where it is HireVue's belief that it is the recruiting employer as controller of the data who will be liable, should a job seeker claim discrimination, not HireVue."

Joel (32m 32s):

Described as merely quote "the data processor" end quote. They state "that it is the employer not HireVue who decide to grant accommodations, including exemption from relevant tests" end quote. All right Chad thoughts on HireVue's deniability or I mean, explainability statement.

Chad (32m 50s):

HireVue customers are on the hook, not HireVue and they have been right? that's how the regulations are written. And I appreciate that. And I think that's exactly the way that it should be. But going back to the California proposed regulations that say vendors, AKA data processors, HireVue, you can call yourself whatever the fuck you want, AKA data processors they must keep their training data. And yes, they would be then on the hook. So it's not just important for the companies to understand their data. It's also important for the vendors to be able to understand their data.

Chad (33m 32s):

So let me just say this, any platform worth their salt. They're not going to be mad about this because they are already paying attention to the algorithms. They are already doing their due diligence to ensure that the algorithms and the behaviors that are being fed for the training data, that they aren't kicking the system out of whack, like Amazon's was. Right? So as I'd said, HireVue, if they have a problem with it, then you should have a problem with HireVue. Most of these AI platforms, they shouldn't have a problem with any of this. If they do have a problem that that is when you should go ahead, turn around and find another vendor.

Joel (34m 12s):

Yeah. Maybe it's time to buy stock in newspaper companies cause the classifieds are coming back. AI is having a moment and the world is kind of a little bit freaked out by it. I think which is, which is pretty normal. Part of me thinks they're taking a page out of the Zuckerberg doctrine and hoping to clean to some sort of section 230 type defense saying, Hey, we're the dumb technology, how you use it is on you, not on us. And I think savvy companies, like you say, will recognize that and not make errors and whether it's discrimination or anything else, when they recruit. However, I do think a lot of a large portion of the potential customer universe is going to be scared by all of this.

Joel (34m 54s):

And those companies will probably be dead in 25 years anyway. It makes sense that the lawyers in the room at HireVue said, let's have this statement. I assume someone has to sign something at some point when they take on customers to give them maximum, you know, leverage to say, it's not us. Don't sue us. Don't come after us. It's it's on the employer. So interesting evolution in terms of how companies are approaching AI and servicing companies, right?

Chad (35m 20s):

Yes. And in Vegas, just so that everybody knows we're going to be on the main stage, closing out day one with EEOC commissioner Keith Sonderling and we're going to be talking about this specific.

Joel (35m 36s):

I love me some Sonderling baby. Good stuff. Go Gators. Let's go to unions speaking big government.

Chad (35m 45s):

Are they still around?

Joel (35m 46s):

Yeah. So an Apple Retail Store in Atlanta has filed for a union election with the national labor relations board. That's the NLRB. The workers, which includes salespeople, technicians, creatives, and operations specialists would be represented by the Communications Workers of America. That's the CWA more than 70% of the group of about a hundred eligible workers sign the union authorization cards, according to a news release, the minimum required is only 30%. Chad any thoughts on Apple unionizing?

Chad (36m 21s):

Yeah. The people want it. It's fairly simple, right? I mean, and there's nothing wrong with this. It was funny when ` I was coming up through the ranks on the corporate side, I bought into the, you know, rugged individualism kind of mantra. And I automatically thought that I should be in charge of my own negotiating. Right. Well, I was good at negotiating. Most people are not good at negotiating. So why is it fair for me to be able to go and get a better salary doing the same work right? Than it is for somebody who's not good at negotiation. And again, that's just one example. There needs to be more of a collective bargaining agreement.

Chad (37m 5s):

So that fairness and equity starts to happen because in this country, that is not even, we're not even close to being fair and equitable with regard to work and wages.

Joel (37m 16s):

So we'll jump onto Starbucks another big brand as well. In December, a Buffalo location of Starbucks became the first among the 9,000 corporate owned stores in the United States to vote to unionize. Now Starbucks baristas are serving up union cards across the country. More than 100 locations have now filed for union recognition in over 20 states since the campaign started in Buffalo last fall, we also talked about an Amazon location in New York, filing for union representation as well. Unions are definitely having a moment, but they've been beaten up for 40 plus years. So I find it hard to believe it's maybe nothing more than some isolated wins.

Joel (37m 58s):

I don't know that it's a trend of unionization in America. You know, I think ironically, if the federal government, which is currently controlled by the Democrats, by the way, who are supposed to be championing, some of these issues, would work to like raise the minimum wage, provide some form of universal health care. And dare I say, provide a level of universal basic income, unions would be a thing of the past and companies wouldn't have to deal with these headaches. Obviously unionization is a bigger discussion, but it is a trend that's growing. I remember when Amazon lost or I'm sorry, the union or the workers lost in Amazon at Amazon.

Joel (38m 39s):

And I think Arizona or New Mexico that we were talking about, this is the death of unions. And that has not been the case. The question will be how much, exactly energy do they have, you know, going into the future. I think we're both sort of skeptical as to how influential unions can be. Would I be right about that? Or do you think it's a trend whose time has come and it'll grow?

Chad (39m 0s):

Yeah, no, I don't think it states time has come and gone. I don't, I think the time to evolve, it needs to be something different than what it used to be. And we were mainly manufacturing unions in this country for the most part. And, now we're seeing Starbucks, right? That tells you where our economy has gone. Right? We're more of a fast food economy than we are a manufacturing economy, which is a problem. It's a huge, huge fucking problem. But for me, this is a bad optics situation for Starbucks because the major grassroots organizers right now are women, non-binary people, queer women and people of color, particularly women of color, and with a workplace composition of 70% female, this doesn't send the right message, right?

Chad (39m 51s):

You're saying that we're a diverse workforce, but yet we don't want to pay you or treat you fairly or allow you representation to me from an optic standpoint. This is a non-starter.

Joel (40m 4s):

Sure. I mean, you know, a hundred years ago, the disenfranchised, where the uneducated, you know, the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, and a lot of the movements back then were based on those folks and the ones you just mentioned, women binary, et cetera, never got a voice, right. They never had their moment in the sun. And this in many ways is their voice or their time to speak up and unionize. And I think that's incredibly powerful as I was saying, my commentary, I kind of forgot childcare, right? Like that is something that wasn't thought about a hundred years ago. Now it's a huge part of, you know, family structures and being a prosperous country.

Joel (40m 48s):

So yeah, I, I do really appreciate that the folks that are leading this charge are the ones that were not heard 150 years ago when unions really had their moment in the sun. All right. Let's take a quick break, pay some bills and have some tequila.

Chad (41m 9s):

With the kids.

Joel (41m 9s):

All right, Chad, here we go. Our final story, baby. All right. We've heard about parents having a drink or five to take the edge off of well parenthood, but this is ridiculous. A kindergarten class in Michigan accidentally drank tequila during snack time. One of the kids brought a bottle of ready to drink Jose Cuervo margarita mix in her backpack. Several students drank it and one Kindergartener quote "felt woozy" end quote and a quote, "little dizzy" end quote, after having four or five sips from a Dixie cup. What better way to drink margaritas, by the way?

Joel (41m 53s):

What's worse. The kindergartener who initially brought the drink knew it was alcoholic Fox two Detroit reported in a statement, the school said, quote, "it's unfortunate that these types of adult beverages can be easily mistaken for child-friendly drinks" end quote. Makes me long for the days when we were kids and could embrace Joe Camel and smoke candied cigarettes. Those were the days weren't they Chad?

Chad (42m 20s):

They were. And it's odd because I mean, if you think about it, it's snack time, little Cheez-Its, little tequila, and then you roll right into nap time. It's perfect.

Joel (42m 34s):

And that's our campaign slogan going into 2024 kids when Chad and Cheese running for Monster president and CEO, once again. And with that, another episode is in the books. Chad.

Chad and Cheese (42m 54s):

We out.

OUTRO (43m 43s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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