Indeed's House of Cards
- Chad Sowash
- Mar 3, 2023
- 32 min read
Joel is haggard from 2,000 miles on the road this week, but that's nothing a beer, chicken tenders, a LIVE recording from a bar in Columbus Indiana, and BIG NEWS can't fix.
What big news?
Google for Jobs PAID ads present a serious risk to Indeed's new CPSA model
ChatGPT presents a serious risk to Indeed's new CPSA model
Indeed's model change wasn't timed well
Workday's A.I. goes to court
Mercer gets a shot of LeapGen botox
and Buy or Sell with WorkLlama, Bonusly, and Gable...
Sit back, pop a cold one, and enjoy what we do best - drink and talk.
You're welcome!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Chad: We are recording.
Joel: We are recording. Levels, level's good. Level's good.
Chad: Yeah. Looking good. Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Oooh yeah. Anything to declare? Yeah, don't go to Jackson, Tennessee. Hi kids, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, this is your co-host, Joel super-A-Cheeseman.
Chad: And this is Chad 1, 2023, prediction down, baby, Sowash.
Joel: And on this week's show, Google for Jobs tells Indeed to hold its beer. "Workday like George Bush hates Black people, and a little buy or sell. Let's do this.
[chuckle]
Will Cheesman: Emotional damage.
Joel: What a week?
Chad: You look a little ragged.
Joel: So my father's 83 years old.
Chad: That's a good life.
Joel: Lives in Houston or live in Houston. I've driven 2000 miles this week to pick him up, put his house on the market, move him out, sell his shit, throw his stuff away. It has been one hell of a week and I have a new side hustle, if I ever want it.
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: It's called two-week move out.
[laughter]
Joel: Because I myself have moved out of a place, listed it, trashed it, cleaned it up in two weeks and in two weeks I was able to get him in the same predicament. So I have a side business if I ever want it.
Chad: Could be a business model. Yeah.
Joel: Twoweekmoveout.com
Chad: Twoweekmoveout.com
Joel: That's right.
Chad: Well, we're glad to have you back in the Midwest.
Joel: We're not even home yet.
Chad: I know.
Joel: I took a pit-stop here in Columbus, Indiana, to do this stupid show.
Chad: Yeah. Yeah. [chuckle]
Joel: And have some beers with you.
Chad: We're here at 4th Street Bar and Grill in little Columbus, Indiana drinking beer, we're together. We don't do this enough. We only do that because we have events.
Joel: It's been a week since I've had a beer and it tastes pretty good.
Chad: Oh my God.
Joel: I gotta tell you. I gotta tell you. Can you do no booze January or whatever that's called?
Chad: That's fucking ridiculous.
Joel: They're demented and sad. I can't imagine.
Chad: Oh yeah. [laughter]
Joel: I'm as unprepared for this show as any show that we've ever done. So who knows where the hell its to go and I'm drinking.
Chad: And listener, that's not saying much. That's not saying much.
Joel: Yeah. Don't go to Jackson, Tennessee, by the way.
[chuckle]
Joel: And don't stay at the motel 8, they're super lame.
Chad: Shout outs. My first shout out goes to Be My Eyes App.
Joel: Be My Ass?
Chad: Be My Eyes.
Joel: Eyes. Sorry.
Chad: Which is an app.
Joel: Sorry.
Chad: Okay? Okay. Yes. I appreciate the clarification. So Julie and I were sitting on the couch earlier this week, settling in for a night, catching up on The Last of Us on HBO Max. And she gets a call and she's as excited as I have ever seen her to take a call because she hates talking on the phone.
Joel: Yeah. Me too.
Chad: She answers the call, the video pops on, and all you see is somebody's house slippers. And I'm like, "What the fuck is going on here?" I have no clue what this is." So I have no clue what this is. Well, it's the Be My Eyes app. It's for... It has over or around half a million individuals who are visually impaired or blind, and they need somebody to tell them what color sweater they're grabbing so that they don't miss match. Or in this case, which was incredibly cute, this blind guy just... He has a new puppy. They're potty training it, and in the area where he had the puppy he was like, "Oh no, what if it shit?" So he was showing Julie the floor around just to make sure not... First and foremost, he didn't step in something.
Joel: Yeah.
Chad: And secondly, if there was something there, she could actually be his eyes to help him clean it up, which was amazing. I automatically joined as a volunteer, go to Be My Eyes. It's an app.
Joel: And she didn't know this person?
Chad: No. No.
Joel: They call randomly...
Chad: Yes. Yes.
Joel: And you agree to take the call...
Chad: Exactly.
Joel: And help them.
Chad: There are 6 million plus volunteers, which is just amazing. But anyway, that's...
Joel: That's very cool.
Chad: My short story.
Joel: Have you seen Bird Box on Netflix?
Chad: I have not. I have not.
Joel: Okay. I won't spoil it for you.
Chad: Okay.
Joel: But the blind win in the end.
[laughter]
Chad: Boom.
Joel: Totally did not ruin that for you whatsoever.
Chad: Boom. Yeah, thanks. That's awesome. Yeah.
Joel: Okay. I got a shout out for the Adult superstore, Chad.
Chad: Hello. [laughter]
Joel: These cathedrals of all things American erotica that appeared off the side of the freeway in small towns across the US, are something you don't see when you take flights like you and I do to most of the destinations across the world. It's nice to know that in a world complete with Porn Hub, OnlyFans, and Adam and Eve, that Bricks and Mortar stores like the Adult superstore are still a staple across small town America. And if you dare travel from Indiana through Illinois, Tennessee, Arkansas Texas and back...
Chad: They're everywhere.
Joel: You will see your fill of Adult superstores.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: Almost as many as Jesus saves billboards, and Jesus is real and God is real.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: Shout out to the Adult superstore.
Chad: There is like a super superstore just north of Kentucky, in Jefferson village. [laughter]
Joel: Is there?
Chad: Yes.
Joel: They have different names. There's like the Lioness superstore.
Chad: Yeah, it's fucking crazy dude.
Joel: There's Mirandas superstore.
[laughter]
Joel: Yeah.
Chad: This one was Truckers delight, I think it was called.
Joel: Yeah, it is America...
Chad: Oh fuck.
Joel: To the hilt. It is America.
Chad: Oh Jesus. Okay. Something else that is American to the hilt is Oscar the Grouch. Shout out to Oscar the Grouch. United Airlines new advertising campaign shows Oscar the Grouch looking through a newspaper and seeing a United Airlines help wanted ad for, guess what? Chief Trash Officer. This is great PR for Sesame Street and Oscar the Grouch. But what brand, let alone what airline wants their brand associated with trash? I would have personally gone with the Cookie Monster as Chief Snack Officer Trash. I'm not sure that I would want associate with my brand. Not to mention, I don't know that I would want to call CTOs trashy.
Joel: Yeah, or like the count. Like count the dollars you'll save by Flying United.
Chad: Save?
Joel: Yeah. We...
Chad: So many options.
Joel: Why don't people hire us for their advertisers campaign?
Chad: Fucking...
Joel: I have a funny Oscar the Grouch story.
Chad: Okay.
Joel: So I dated a girl in college.
Chad: Oh God.
Joel: Her last name was Mayer.
Chad: [laughter] Okay.
Joel: And she was a Ted Salty one night, and I called her...
Chad: Thank you.
Joel: I called her Oscar.
Chad: Oh, that is such good beer.
Joel: She thought it was for Oscar Mayer, the wiener...
[laughter]
Joel: Producer. And she thought it was cute. And I was like, no, Oscar the Grouch.
Chad: Oh.
Joel: And she didn't take kindly to that. I don't...
Chad: You should have stuck with the first one.
Joel: I don't think that we were with each other the whole night. So anyway, that's my Oscar the Grouch story. My second shout out Chad.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: You know, I love a good fast food shoutout.
Chad: What?
Joel: Especially when they have historical.
Chad: Reference.
Joel: Context to my own life.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: Shout out to the KFC or Kentucky Fried Chicken as it's still called in Kentucky, by the way. The KFC double down.
Chad: Double down.
Joel: What the hell was the double down? Well, remember when paleo was first all the rage back in the day.
Chad: Yep.
Joel: And no one wanted sandwich meat or they didn't want bread.
Chad: No one want the breads.
Joel: Everyone got protein style or no bun. Well, KFC was in a bit of a pickle with their chicken option.
Chad: They were in a big of a pickle.
Joel: They had the great idea of putting two chicken thighs, which by the way, are still fried chicken. I guess people don't consider the breaded fried chicken as part as bread. But anyway, it is probably less bread than the bun. Anyway, you put two thighs together. And who doesn't love to do that?
Chad: I rather like them up apart.
Joel: And you put some cheese in there, some pickles, other condiments, and the meat becomes the bun essentially.
[laughter]
Joel: And they wrap in a little thing and you eat it, sort of like, a taco or a sandwich. And they're bringing it back for some reason. I don't know if it's like a keto thing, I'm not really up on the new diet bads of the world.
Chad: [laughter] Yes.
Joel: So who knows. But this is historical. This is a little bit McRib-ish. A little bit.
Chad: Very much is. Yes.
Joel: By the way, the milkshake is back for just in time for St. Patrick's Day.
Chad: Oh yeah. The Shamrock Shake.
Joel: Shamrock Shake. Yes.
Chad: Shamrock shake.
Joel: Sorry.
Chad: I love those as a kid.
Joel: Yeah. [laughter]
Chad: I loved them as a kid.
Joel: Frozen ice.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: That's colored green.
[laughter]
Joel: It's delicious.
Chad: Alright. Alright, alright. We're getting into events. Alright kids, Unleash America happening in April in Vegas. Obviously you want to be there. HR practitioners. Guess what? You can get a discount through Chad and Cheese. That's right. You go to Chadcheese.com.
Joel: We got a coupon code?
Chad: Oh, we got a coupon link.
Joel: Okay, alright.
Chad: You just go to Chadcheese.com and, go to events. And guess what? All you have to do is find the events that you wanna go to. This one obviously being Unleash America, and register. Guess what? You're gonna automatically get a percentage off, get a discount. Then we've got iCIMS Inspire, this May in Coronado on the beach.
Joel: Oh yes. Yes.
Chad: We're gonna be closing out the main stage on day one. I have no clue what we're gonna be doing there. I just know that we're gonna be talking shit and enjoying life.
Joel: Snapping checks and writing... Wait. Snapping necks and cashing checks.
Chad: There you go.
Joel: That's what we're gonna be doing.
Chad: That's what. That's what.
Joel: Sorry. My brain is moving a little slower tonight.
Chad: And then, last but not least on at least this, we can't go through all of our events, kids, we have way too many. RecFest London in Knebworth. It's a party. It's a carnival. It is under a big top. It has a Ferris wheel. Holy shit. It's in July, London. You got to go there for all of these. And a long list of other events that Chad and Cheese are gonna be at. Go to Chadcheese.com, click on events, and, you never know. You might even receive a discount when registering for a ticket.
Joel: It's even rumored that Cole Cheeseman, who has a spanking new driver's license.
Chad: What?
Joel: Might be designated driving people to and from Knebworth.
[laughter]
Joel: We'll see how that goes. I'm not sure he wasn't tested on the other side of the car...
Chad: I was gonna say.
Joel: Or the Steering wheel.
Chad: Or the other side of the road.
Joel: It could be tunes as the cat driving over a cliff moment for everybody.
Chad: Talk to me about free stuff. I like free stuff.
Joel: Free shit. I Love free shit. I'm wearing a fine t-shirt, by the way.
Chad: That's our first one, version one.
Joel: This is the OG shirt.
Chad: Yep.
Joel: It's still a warm hug from both of us to this day.
Chad: Looks new.
Joel: It is, it's totally looking new 'cause I've never worn it before.
[laughter]
Joel: And, you gotta... If you want a t-shirt, if you want free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs, Bourbon from our homies, in Denmark from Tex Colonel. And if it's your birthday this month, you could win some rum from our friends at Plum. That's good marketing once again. But you gotta sign up to get it. Head out to Chadcheese.com, click the free link, sign up. And there's a pretty good chance that at some point in your life as long as this show is airing that you'll win something.
Chad: So, Bas Van de Haterd who was... He has not received his t-shirt and he's knocking on our door. I'm thinking he feels like Job Gett should just send him a whole box or something. I don't know. [laughter]
Joel: Yeah. So I mentioned my 16 year old doing driving duty at Knebworth. My t-shirts are managed by my 13 year old daughter.
[laughter]
Joel: I think people think somehow we have some warehouse in Middle America churning out t-shirts and shipping shit.
Chad: That's great.
Joel: This shit takes time. We got a lot of fans. It's not personal.
Chad: Relax.
Joel: Just sit tight. Just sit tight. Okay.
Chad: Plus we're coming to events.
Joel: If you really want one, fly your ass to Indianapolis, I'll take you to lunch. We'll get some drinks and I'll give you a shirt if you really want one that much. Boss, Indiana's beautiful in the spring. We'll see you in a few weeks.
Chad: Yeah, or come to one of those events because more than likely we're gonna be packing kids. We're gonna be packing. Topics. Okay. Acquisition alert. Acquisition alert.
Joel: Yeah. You sent me this at like midnight last night.
Chad: I sent you this, you probably haven't even read through this. Mercer acquires Leapgen, Mercer a business of Marsh McLennan on the New York Stock Exchange. As M-M-C announced the acquisition of Leapgen. A leading HR Technology Advisory Firm focused on digital strategy and transformation, workforce solutions and improving employee experience. Mercer's latest research indicates that US organizations increasing their total HR spend. 63% are spending more on HR tech in 2023, despite increased investment, nearly 60% of HR leaders don't believe they have the right stack, hence consolidation on consulting. Is this big news, not big news. What do you think?
Joel: It's potentially big news and we don't talk a lot about the shred on this podcast. But the shred, if you're not listening and subscribe to our show, you can't get it on the website. It's exclusively, you gotta sign up for the feed.
Chad: That's for subscribers kids and it's free.
Joel: But it's nice because I read it every week and it's good to get a sense of like, Who's getting money? How much money? Who's getting acquired for how much? Like who's acquiring? What are the trends that you see? And I'm lucky enough to get like a 30,000 foot view of what's going on. Obviously when we started it was like," Oh, Someone you never heard of just got $70 million. Oh, that's fun. We'll talk about that on the show". And then, it became kind of, they're getting 20 million, 15 million and that's more of like what we're seeing today. And we're seeing a little bit more of the acquisition drives. And you and I have talked a lot about with the pandemic happening and money not flowing the way that it is, a lot of companies are gonna be looking to sell. A lot of companies are gonna go shopping. This is gonna be the TJ Max of our industry where for shit's, shit may not fit. Right. But it's cheap, so let's buy it...
Chad: [laughter] There you go.
Joel: And see if we can dye it into it or maybe have enough chicken wings that we feed into it later.
Chad: Or tailored. Yeah.
Joel: And to me this sounds a lot like that, like there was probably a clearance sale at Leapgen.
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: Is that... Okay. Leapgen and a company that had money and resources went out and bought it. Now as I read the Shred and the news, we're getting more and more acquisitions and I think that the trend will be less money raised and more companies buying companies. So in that case, I would say this is potentially a trend that we're gonna see and could be big news and a sign of things to come.
Chad: Yeah. I'm gonna say that I think Mercer was really an old and crusty brand and Leapgen is kind of this new, they do a lot of content, they've got a lot of thought leadership, a lot of that stuff. And Mercer's really missing that. So what they really needed to do, Is either develop it or buy that shit. I know from sources that Jason and Mike, who are co-founders and also the C-R-O Tanya, are locked into a five year agreement with Mercer. That's on the rumor wires and consulting services for vendors. This is low hanging fruit because you know those stacks don't work right together. They're shit, it's fucking horrible. So I think what's happening here is Mercer is trying to get a injection of Botox to look better, to feel better about themselves. You know what I mean?
Joel: [laughter] Yeah. Supercharged the staff. Look at this cool shit we got.
Chad: Ooh. It's amazing. So I just hope that they don't suffocate the Leapgen brand with their old crustiness. I hope that the Botox lasts long enough.
Joel: Yeah.
Chad: But we'll see. Time will tell.
Joel: Yeah. It almost never works out that way.
[laughter]
Joel: It's like a sugar high.
Chad: Yes, yes.
Joel: And it's back to the same old processes and big co-shit that everyone is used to. So it'll be fun for a while. Enjoy the cotton candy there Mercer.
[laughter]
Joel: Alright. Some other news.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: Google for Jobs while.
Chad: So another beer.
Joel: Yeah, Another beer please.
Chad: Thank you.
Joel: Can you grab a water too, for the young man walking up the sidewalk there with the 1988 Oakley Sunglasses.
[laughter]
Chad: I love him.
Joel: Anyway.
Chad: I love him.
Joel: Sorry. I won't go into it. My Dad is joining us kind of at this podcast. Sorry. So Tom Chevrolet.
Chad: Let's go with Chevrolet. It makes him sound sexy.
Joel: Chevrolet, Chopping Buffalo, Chief Product Officer at App Cash shared a screenshot of Google for Jobs providing sponsored ads on specific searches. Most of you out there won't see it, which means it's in a testing phase.
Chad: Beta.
Joel: Chad predicted this would happened this year. I was a little early predicting it in 2021. Although I said it probably won't happen until 2024, but I'll give you credit for it but we both predicted it.
Chad: Of course, you will.
Joel: Google's doing it. LinkedIn was on fire over his share. Lot of comments, lot of ridicule, criticism.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: Not a lot of love. What's your take on Google for Jobs advertising?
Chad: Well, first and foremost, the time is upon us kids. My sources say that many of the big programmatic players and some reputable Job Boards are actually they've been baiting this product for a minute. It's still hands down the worst job search UX in the game. But when you have the kind of traffic in usage that Google does, you can get the UX wrong and still find results for hiring companies looking to get away from vendors like, I don't know, Indeed that are currently holding clients hostage. If you're a hiring company and you already have your jobs marked up in the Google for Jobs feed, there will be a one click option. Did you hear that? One click option to elevate your job to a paid position. So I think this is definitely not perfect. We'll be talking about.
Joel: Is that confirmed or is that...
Chad: Yes.
Joel: Okay.
Chad: That's confirmed. This is not perfect, much like ChatGPT. Right? This is evolving. But I tell you what, when you have the type of traffic that Google does, Google is a lifestyle platform. Indeed is not. This is an incredible development I think in our space. The question is, will they stick with it?
Joel: Yeah, so the criticism that I saw was... Gee it took 'em long enough.
Chad: Really.
Joel: To me this is... Okay, so this thing launched in '17, it's been six years. We've had COVID. We've had some shit go on, let's call it a five year let's see where this goes test.
Chad: Well, they also had monopoly cases in courts and shit.
Joel: So antitrust cases, is this gonna be safe to launch? Let's figure out this shit.
Chad: They had to get it right.
Joel: So to me like the criticism of like, "Oh it took 'em long enough," is kind of bullshit. I mean this isn't their business. This is like a side project for Google.
Chad: [laughter] It's 20% time.
Joel: Yeah. So time was sort of stupid. I mean ad dollars are down, people are advertising less. So adding a new channel that, by the way, is a multi-billion dollar channel potentially makes sense. ChatGPT is putting pressure on their business. The other thing, and you mentioned this, is that it's ugly.
Chad: It is.
Joel: God help us. It's ugly. You and I remember Google when ads used to be highlighted in green and purple and weird shades of colors. Now you don't even notice the ads. There's like a little ad text between that. So they'll figure out the design of this. It'll come around. They'll do user testing. They'll get data around this. That's not a big deal. The other thing to me like the big thing that no one really talked about on the LinkedIn post was like, timing is perfect because Indeed is busy pissing everyone off.
Chad: Yes, yes. [laughter]
Joel: And charging too much for this new bullshit product that they've rolled out. There's gonna be more people ask what other options are there? They're gonna be calling their agencies.
Chad: Thank you.
Joel: They're gonna be calling their consultants. And wow, just in time Google has an option that we can spend some money. This is guaranteed to take money out of Indeed's pocket, out of Glassdoor's pocket, which a lot of us should be celebrating because maybe it'll get them back on the right track. So timing is perfect whether they like woo hahaha in the back rooms with cigar smoked bars or whatever, figure this out or maybe just happened on circumstance, but timing is fantastic. You mentioned Zip and LinkedIn are beta testing this, and the screenshots that were shared by Tom showed that LinkedIn and ZipRecruiter were actual advertisers for this product. So they've already gotten after the low hanging fruit which is, "Hey, call our buddies at LinkedIn and then see if they'll write some checks for sponsor jobs. Call our buddies at ZipRecruiter to see if they'll spend some money." So they've gone low hanging fruit. They're gonna hit the biggest ad agencies. The agencies are gonna buy.
Chad: They're adding programmatic guys in.
Joel: Because the agencies are gonna be happy about telling their clients, "Oh, we're leveraging Google now to sponsor your jobs that'll eventually filter down to smaller companies. There'll be an ad campaign at some point." I think this is really good for Google. I think the criticism is not warranted, if you're looking at the big picture. Clearly, it's a five year experiment that Google thinks it's good enough, it's effective enough and popular enough that they can now start monetizing it. I think sky's the limit in terms of what Google can do to monetize jobs in the future.
Chad: Agreed.
Joel: And Indeed should be a little nervous by what just happened.
Chad: Well, also this isn't being tested, or at least from my understanding, it's low level tested in Europe and let's be frank Indeed in 40 plus countries is number one in six of them. Okay, so, if this does launch in Europe, they're gonna eat Indeed's launch overnight. It's gonna be much harder in the US, right? But not so much in Europe.
Joel: Yep. By the way, do you use Gmail?
Chad: Yes.
Joel: Have you noticed on the sponsored are now within...
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: They're not just at the top. They're actually within the ads.
Chad: Integrated into it.
Joel: That's just not me, right?
Chad: No.
Joel: Okay, yeah. So Google's monetizing more now than they have in a long time. And Gmail, those ads have been around for 10, 15 years. So Google takes a while sometimes. Don't fret it people.
Chad: They do. You know who doesn't take a while to... A Workday.
Joel: Workday, let's segue into Workday.
Chad: To get smacked on the fucking face.
Joel: Alright. Workday. Kinda like the commercials, by the way.
Chad: That was a good commercial. I liked it. Yeah.
Joel: Workday is facing a lawsuit alleging that it's artificial intelligence systems in screening tools discriminate against black, disabled and older applicants at a disproportionate rate. That's a triple, triple threat in discrimination. The suit followed by a Black man over 40 who suffers from anxiety and depression seeks to represent all applicants in those protected classes who have been disqualified by the discriminatory screening process. Workday provides its screening tools to hundreds if not thousands of companies and allegedly allows the pre-selection of applicants outside of protected categories. Workday believes the lawsuit is without merit. That's a shocker. And is committed to trustworthy AI. Chad, your thoughts on the news outta Workday?
Chad: Okay. So let me preface this by saying Workday is probably the worst recruitment software system that any company can plug into. Number one, from the release which you started reading, Workday is committed to trustworthy AI and acts responsibly and transparently, keyword, transparently in the design and delivery of its AI solutions. Awesome. How can I get a peek at your algorithm? Where can I access this open system? I mean, they said transparency, so it's gotta be open, right? No, it's not. What's happening is Workday has fallen into a trap and they don't even know what to say. They're having problems. I mean, this is big but here's what vendors need to do before they can find themselves in a class action suit. They need to understand that if their system have bias built into them and/or does the problem lie within the client's process, big vendors like Workday should have a process team that consults their clients on these issues. That's actually a money grab right there, to be quite frank.
Chad: But the problem here is that Workday doesn't even know where the problem is. We'll see some companies enlist an army of lawyers but that's not what they need. They truly need to understand where the problem is so that they can identify it, then they can start to actually solve the problem that's going on because AI's not going away. If they try to fight it with lawyers, they're just gonna get killed by the US government, while smarter AI systems focus on being more persistent around understanding process and being able to consult their clients.
Joel: This to me feels a lot like LinkedIn versus hiQ in this way. Whatever is decided by the courts will probably be the precedent by which this whole question is answered. Right? So if Mobley wins... By the way we're talking age, race and disability. We're talking like triple threat in terms of discrimination.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: So this is a big case and he's not suing a company. One of the biggest publicly traded companies in our space. I don't know who he's represented by, the guy clearly has the CV to be...
Chad: He meets the requirements. Yeah.
Joel: Like college education, network systems administration. He has enough there that he should be getting engagement from employers to get a job. So to me this is gonna go to court. They're gonna make judgements on, hopefully, it goes to court. They're gonna make judgements on AI, who's responsible, what processes need to happen? If Mobley wins, it's going to send a chill among all the vendors in our space about what is AI, how do we audit this, how do we get government approval, and our webinar with our friends at NYU and UNC goes into some of this. But if Mobley wins, it's going to send a cold chill on the back of every vendor because they put themselves at risk. And now there's a court case to set precedent by which you have done this to me. If Workday wins and the parallel case, LinkedIn won against hiQ, although that was company versus really small company. This is a person versus a vendor. It's gonna be very interesting how this plays out. We're gonna watch it very closely and report on it back or report back on this, on the podcast. But to me this is precedent setting. How is AI regulated? How is it thought of, how does the government get involved? This is potentially the case of the decade in terms of AI and employment.
Chad: I think what's gonna happen is we're gonna see Workday have to defend it's algorithm. And the beautiful thing about this for attorneys everywhere, every algorithm is different, every data set is different. So every single case brought up is different. This is gonna be... This is gonna represent what happens to Workday, but this is gonna continue to happen over and over and over. This is not gonna stop things like hiQ and LinkedIn. It's not gonna stop the scraping.
Joel: It'll set a precedent, if Mobley wins, you're gonna see a lot of people come forward and say, "I've been discriminated against."
Chad: If Mobley wins the dam bursts.
Joel: Yes, yes. And that's why it's incredibly important.
Chad: I agree. I agree.
Joel: No word yet as to whether or not Ozzy Osbourne and Joan Jett will be taking the stand in this court case.
Chad: [laughter] I think Billy Idol is going to.
Joel: Oh, Billy Idol will be good with the chainsaw. That's nice. Alright, let's take a quick break and we'll order a few more beers and get back to you with Buy or sell.
Speaker 3: Emotional damage.
Joel: Alright, Chad. Time for Little Buy or Sell.
Chad: Buy or Sell. I love it.
Joel: You know how we play. We talk about three companies that have recently gotten funding. I read a summary and both of us buy or sell the company. First up, San Francisco based Gable as in Clark Gable, a startup that enables distributed companies to manage office space for their workforce has secured 16 million in funding. Gable's online platform enables employees to see where their coworkers are working each day and book a desk alongside them. While the company can manage budgets and monitor employee satisfaction, Gable has grown rapidly and will continue to do so with more than 50 companies and 5000 employees using its platform. Founded in 2020, the company employs 27 people. Chad, are you a buyer or sell on Clark Gable?
Chad: Did you see the domain on this one, Gable.to.
Joel: I did not. Gable.to.
Chad: So, any top level domain that's two letters is owned by a country. So T-O is actually owned by the Kingdom of Tonga. Just a little...
Joel: TO Tonga, dances with wolves.
Chad: Little TLD knowledge for our listeners out there, just want to geek out with it. Remote. Still a big part of today's conversation, 13% of the jobs on LinkedIn are remote, but they are receiving 50% of the clicks meaning that's what people want to do. New research also shows that hybrid is where companies are starting to find common ground with their employees. And that means being able to coordinate days in the office and workstations. Gable's model is like Airbnb for the workspace and I believe blends the remote distributed model incredibly well with the permanent office/hybrid model. So companies using Gable have seen employees interests in coming into the office jump 75% just release features, extend the ability to reserve desk space at a company's permanent office. This is like Airbnb for workplaces. I mean, I love me some Airbnb and I love me some Gable. This is a buy.
[applause]
Joel: That's a buy. All right. Yeah. Speaking of predictions...
[laughter]
Joel: That we talked about earlier in the show and your Google for Jobs prediction.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: I predicted a while back that Airbnb would get into the work management...
Chad: You did.
Joel: Business. They have not. Although, like I always say, predictions are never wrong, they just haven't happened yet.
Chad: And Gable's that prediction.
Joel: So Gable has essentially taken the void that Airbnb should have taken up by making it very flexible for employees, companies to get workspace. I love the whole, like when are my buddies working at the same time? You can manage that, go to lunch together, build that culture, build that engagement that we talk about is so important. Although, we both agree that people are gonna go back to work more than they're not, I think hybrid is definitely something that's here to stay. So those days that you're not in the office, product like Gable is gonna be in high demand by companies as well as some others. I forget the name of the company where you can rent out, like coffee shop, tables and restaurants. You can get in and restaurants give you free soda if you go and work there if your company provides that. This is definitely a good idea and it sounds like with the funding Gable is on the cutting edge of making this a reality and being successful with it. San Francisco, obviously, a lot of money's there to help make this happen. So for me as well, Gable is a buy everybody.
[applause]
Joel: Alright. Save the drama for your LLama, Chad.
Chad: Oh, Jesus.
Joel: WorkLLama...
[laughter]
Joel: Has raised $50 million. Is that right? Is that a typo? $50 million for WorkLLama?
Chad: Yes. Yes.
Joel: Okay. The funds will be used to grow the company's team, accelerate product enhancements, embark on strategic acquisitions, invest in continued automation, and expand its presence across North America, Europe, and Asia-Pacific. That's what the kids call APAC, Chad. WorkLLama aims to help connect talent with roles that are meaningful and allow them to engage easily with brands in their chosen field. Since it's founding in 2016, the WorkLLama team has grown to 112 employees with customers across four continents. Chad, are you ready to ride the LLama or not?
Chad: [laughter] WorkLLama's been around since 2016. 2016, and it shows there, and this is their only funding by work base. So this is our crunch base.
Joel: Do you remember making fun of them at HR Tech?
Chad: Yes. Yes. I do.
Joel: Okay, make sure it wasn't just me.
Chad: So I checked out. They have one video on YouTube. They've been around since 2016.
Joel: Just one. [laughter]
Chad: One video. And this is something revolutionary. Yeah. Sit back, sit back. They talk about branded talent communities. That's right, kids, 2004s calling, averages old school shit is now a WorkLLama. I'm not done. They also have a chatbot and they also have an app. That's right. An app. It's fucking crazy. First and foremost, it's all retro throwback. Secondarily, their total addressable market is ridiculous. They talk about staffing, enterprise. Their platform delivers, VMS, HCM, platform, onboarding, HRIS, diversity. The list is long. There's no way they can cover this tam and also deal with this retro bullshit. This is a sell for me.
[laughter]
Joel: Yeah. Okay. We talk a lot about companies going outta business, not because they take too little money. Because they take too much money.
Chad: And they promise too much.
Joel: Hello. WorkLLama. If you're trying to be everything to everybody, you're typically nothing to no one.
Chad: Exactly.
Joel: Too much money. Too stretched. This thing is a hot pile of steaming garbage. I can't believe they raised $50 million. Whoever invested in this, this Turkey, in this LLama, is gonna regret it. Work Turkey, I mean, WorkLLama is a sell. Bonusly.
Chad: Oh, okay.
Joel: Bonusly. Yeah. Founded in 2012 when everything was ly, remember that everything was ly.
Chad: Yes.ly. Yes.
Joel: Bonusly has secured 18.9 million in a series B funding round. This brings total funding to $31.4 million. Bonusly's platform fosters employee recognition with 93% of customers noting improved engagement according to the company by offering realtime data on how organizations work and how workers communicate and connect. Bonusly's Analytics capabilities can be used by HR teams and managers to understand how they can improve employee morale and retention. They employ 118 people. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Bonusly?
Chad: So they got 18.9 in this round, 31.4 total. They've been around since 2012. Wow, right off the website. I like this kids, "Companies that use employee recognition programs are up to 20% more profitable... " Hear that word profitable, "than those who don't", damn, that's dropping that. That is dropping it right there. But let's play this out real quick. Amazon reportedly lost $8 billion to attrition. That's right, kids. When your workplace sucks, people leave and that costs your organization money. But would a virtual pat on the back change a company's culture enough to make people stay? In Amazon's case, I would say no. It's a good band-aid and Bonusly is a very cheap and easy band-aid, but it won't change Amazon's culture. And that is a real problem. So I love the retention equals profits angle. They need to play that all day, beat that fucking drum, but it's just not enough for me. It's a sell.
Joel: Oh. So I met these guys, I think at HR Tech around 2012. They were at the kiosk party. I think they were next to Workly and Employly or something.
Chad: Start up village.
Joel: Yeah. They were the startup village, the corridor of startups that get a kiosk and an internet connection.
[laughter]
Joel: So, when I talk to them, I was like, "Okay, I get this. It sounds good." They're from Boulder, Colorado, so they're pretty laid back, easygoing guys.
Chad: Smelled like weed.
Joel: I was into it and we talked about Plum last week. Plum also founded in 2012, Chad, if I remember correctly. So similarly to how Plum sort of grew organically, grew intelligently, didn't take a ton of money, and immediately kind of grew into their shoes. The world kind of came to them and needed their product more than maybe they did in 2012. I feel like Bonusly has been on a similar track. They've grown organically. Anyone that's been around since 2012 is doing something right. And I think the world work from home remote work, it has made employee engagement, how do you recognize folks, more important than ever, companies are looking for a solution to make their people feel warm and fuzzy. And I think Bonusly is in the right spot at the right time. For me, we're gonna disagree on Bonusly and I'm gonna buy.
Chad: Hell, yeah.
Joel: We gotta talk about chatGTP right on this show at some point?
Chad: Yeah. Yeah. I did. See, we can't even get the name right? ChatGPT. It's hard to say.
Joel: What did I say?
Chad: Its like GTP. I know, right? It's just... It's fucking crazy. Anyway.
Joel: ChatOPP that's what I can remember.
Chad: The first thing we're gonna talk about is workers being replaced by chatGPT. Resumebuilders.com surveyed 1000 business leaders in the US who either use or plan to use chatGPT. Fortune reported nearly half the company surveyed had already begun using the chatbot, and 50% of those surveyed claimed that chatGPT had already replaced workers at their companies. What jobs you might ask? 66% writing code, 58% copywriting and content creation, saw that coming. 57% for customer support and 52% meeting summary. So a note taker. What do you think?
Joel: So we had this crypto period...
Chad: Yes. [laughter]
Joel: Where Web3 was gonna change the world.
Chad: I still think it is.
Joel: No one actually gets it. A few people say they get it. I'm a little cynical if they get it. Like I kind of get it. And then there are things that happen where people like my 83 year old dad are like, "Okay, that's kind of cool. I get that."
Chad: I can use that.
Joel: And chatOPP or GPT or...
Chad: You know me.
Joel: Whatever the hell it is. Yeah. Like, you know me, when you show someone the power of what this can do, people get it immediately. It's like search.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: It's like email. Like there are certain things that you know this is gonna be huge.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: And how to write code. We know we talked about another startup recently. Software that builds software was their tagline. And we're gonna see more and more of that. So you mentioned code, text, the customer service was interesting.
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: I'm not sure how that would...
Chad: Chat bots.
Joel: Like chat bots. Okay.
Chad: FAQs, those types of things.
Joel: Yeah.
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: Okay. I mean, so many of these professions are obviously in trouble and at risk because of chatGPT. The other part of chatGPT I know we talked about was job seekers and Job Boards getting inundated with...
Chad: We'll get there.
Joel: Okay. We'll get there in a second. Alright. Then I'll stay on task with what we're currently talking about. I think it's gonna be tremendously disruptive to all of those professions. I think you're gonna get people on Fiverr and Upwork that are coders that are simply like writing code through GPT. Maybe they're approving it or whatever.
Chad: How do you stop it?
Joel: You're gonna get copywriters that are just using the technology and just people that don't know about it, they're just gonna do it. They're gonna scale their consulting tremendously and have way more clients than they can normally pull off, until the world catches onto it. But yeah, this is a hugely important technology. This isn't Web3 where people are like, I don't know what the fuck that is.
[laughter]
Joel: This is like legit shit. Companies are using it, consultants are using it.
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: This is gonna change the world.
Chad: Totally agree. I think that we're finally gonna be able to see HR Tech look at how chatGPT has come to the world, and they're going to start to emulate that. I'm hoping, I'm hoping that companies do that. Not just chat bot companies, but any company that just makes their platform more transparent to get out there, use it, feel it, touch it, taste it. And I agree 100%. The thing is, are they gonna overwhelm the job board? So Alexander Chernovsky tweeted, "Am I the only one who thinks this is a weird coincidence that Indeed moves to CPA now that chatGPT massively enables generation of fake applications." Then Jim Durbin writes on LinkedIn, "In fact, the CPA model, which is designed to improve quality and focuses on results over work, is about to be overwhelmed by AI created resumes, messaging and soon the bots." We got Alexander and we got Jim saying, guess what? ChatGPT is going to fuck this CPA thing up. And they could do it to Job Boards overall.
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. It's a real problem. So click fraud has been a thing for a long time.
Chad: Yeah.
Joel: Right. So when there was a paper click model and Google created AdSense where, hey, put our code and our search results on your page and we'll pay you for clicks. Well, obviously people found ways to build bots that would just click these links over and over and over to make money off of Google. And a lot of people did it in the early days. They were like...
Chad: They did. They did.
Joel: People, I remember stories of like...
Chad: Click fraud.
Joel: I made a million dollars last year on creating robots that would click ads on my blog. So we're gonna see some of that initially. Now, in this case, I don't think Google... Or Indeed is sharing revenue for applications that are off somebody's site, so you won't see a lot of the third party just driving traffic. But Indeed will be carrying all the positives in terms of, they'll drive traffic to Indeed and the job postings. And then once they apply, they'll make money from that. So the automated mass applies that come in, Indeed will get all that money. They won't be sharing it like Google did back in the day. Now it's up to the consumer to figure out like, Wait a second, I'm paying a lot of money. I'm getting Jack, I'm getting Bagel in terms of responses or any clients whatsoever," they're gonna have to push Indeed in this case to monitor this stuff.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: That's gonna take six months to a year. Google's gonna... Indeed's gonna make so much money off of this, they might make their own bots. I didn't just say that. Indeed is not gonna make their own bots to apply the jobs and make money for free. They're not gonna do that. But there's eventually gonna have to be a system where, "Hey, I know this is AI. There's a policing system. There's monitoring that goes into it where, hey, click Red Flag. This is not a person, this is a robot." And just like click fraud, there will be policies in place to do that. Again, this goes back to what we've been talking about. Robots are gonna, like pre-screen robots and interview robots. And these job seekers are on this train. Employers are on this train. We literally are going to a place where robots interview robots and at the end of the filter, at the end of the funnel, two human beings meet, and hopefully they work it out.
Chad: You know what fixes this?
Joel: Human beings.
Chad: Web3.
Joel: Web3. [chuckle]
Chad: Fucking blockchain baby. You know why? Because you were certified.
Joel: Sir Richard solves this. That's how. [laughter]
Chad: You have a certified account, you have certifications that actually demonstrate what you can do, what you can't do, assessments, all those things, unless you come through this validated process. Guess what, kids? You're fucked. This is how Web3 comes into the system. Much like cloud computing, everybody is like, "What is cloud computing?" Guess what everybody is using today kids, they don't know it. But guess what, this is gonna happen, it's gonna be Web3, it's gonna be integrated because these bots are gonna fuck over these systems, unless we put something in place that is validated and Web3 blockchain can validate it. Boom!
Will Cheesman: That escalated quickly.
Joel: Sir Richard just rolled up in his Maserati wearing my dad's Oakley, looking cool as fuck. That's how we solve it.
Chad: Beverly solves it all.
Joel: Ed Beverly, yeah, don't call her Joan Crawford.
[laughter]
Joel: Alright, guys, we're gonna take a quick break. Maybe or not order another beer and talk about over time.
Speaker 3: Emotional damage.
[laughter]
Joel: Alright, Chad, let's talk about over time and how to define it.
Chad: Well, first off, Indiana didn't need it twice in beating Purdue, twice this year.
Joel: Wow, you went to the basketball reference, which lost about 80% of our audience.
Chad: Basketball, very, very global.
Joel: March madness, March madness is coming.
Chad: Very global. Very global.
Joel: Alright Chad, the US Supreme Court.
Chad: Yes.
Joel: The US Supreme Court, not some state has ruled that Michael Hewitt, an employer of oil and gas company, Helix Energy Solutions is entitled to overtime pay under the Fair Labor Standards Act. Despite earning more than 200,000 per year, the court ruled six to three in favor of Hewitt, who worked 84 hours a week supervising 12-14 workers on an offshore oil rig between 2014 and 2017. Hewitt was paid a day rate and did not receive any overtime pay. The court found that his pay structure did not meet the FLSA salary-based criteria for an executive exemption from the over-time rule. This sounds important, Chad. What you got?
Chad: [laughter] So on this week's Europe show with Lieven called...
Joel: Virtual cheese was there.
Chad: Big in Dutchland. Lieven shadowed out the naughty Americans who were giving workers manager titles so they didn't have to pay them over time. In America we do one thing well and one thing better than anybody else is fuck our employees, that's exactly what we do.
Joel: Adult superstores. [chuckle]
Chad: Helix, the company, in this case, will probably only change their method of pay out. A daily rate is way too close and assimilated to an hourly rate. I bet Helix will probably move to a true salary, and all the old dogs will stay where they are, but anybody who's coming in new, will be on a "salary" to pay out.
Joel: Hoppopotamus is what I got.
Chad: That's it.
Joel: Thank you, sir.
Chad: So I see that we're just gonna have employers playing the game differently, they'll look at Helix and they go, "Okay, we're just gonna hire individuals," and this is hard fucking jobs, we're talking about working on the oil rigs.
Joel: Sure. And he's managing those guys that are working on oil rigs.
Chad: 80 hours. 80 hours, right. And they're trying to screw him out of over-time by giving him a "Title". Unless we put our foot down and stop this stupid shit, this is gonna continue. Just in a different way.
Joel: Yeah. Remind you, I said US Supreme Court.
Chad: Yes, that's big. Oh, that's big.
Joel: This is where the big stuff goes to get decided, and I applaud the Supreme Court for this judgment, by the way, I'm mostly conservative Supreme Court for laying down this judgment and the companies...
Chad: That says something.
Joel: Companies and particularly HR departments of companies whose main job is to keep the company out of court, especially the US Supreme Court.
Chad: Oh fuck.
Joel: This is gonna be important, this is gonna be an important legislation and companies need to be on the alert that this sort of, I don't know, dancing on the line of what's a full-time employee and a salaried employee and an hourly employee or seasonal or daily employee in this case will not be tolerated by Washington and I, for one Chad, as I'm finishing my second beer, say cheers.
Chad: Cheers.
Joel: And cheers to my father, 83 years old. Will Cheesman. Dad, say hi to everybody.
Will Cheesman: Hi everybody. Rock and roll baby.
[laughter]
Joel: There you go. He can't just say hi, he's gotta throw in a rock and roll baby in there. And with that, I'm hungry, the chicken fingers smell good. We out.
Chad: We out.
Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there is no doubt you wished you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal and taco bell. Enjoy a bottle of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. Now, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, let's save some soap, because you'll be back like an awful train wreck you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.
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