Indeed's Master Plan!?


Football is in the air and Hail Mary's are flyin' all over the place this week.

  • Dice pumped $3 million into The Muse ... can you say midlife crisis?

  • Indeed's master plan. Yes, the seeds of CPAS can be found as far back at 2016 (yep, we did the research) ...but then they neurodiversity themselves - so dumb.

What else?

  • Amazon is encouraging its contractors to bypass weed background checks,

  • Trucking gets a good dose of tech with YouCruit's Lanefinder,

  • and Harvard says automation is to blame for our unemployment problem.

It's another touchdown episode powered by our biggest cheerleaders, JobAdx, Sovren, and Jobvite.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Joel (21s):

Oh yeah. Are you ready for some super spreader events? I mean, are you ready for some football? What's up kiddies? It's your favorite guilty pleasure the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host Joel "take Ball State and the points" Cheeseman.


Chad (36s):

Chad "Bartender, I'll have another Mojito" Sowash.


Joel (40s):

On this week's show Dice finds its muse. Is automation to blame for our hiring lows? And high High Times at Amazon. It's a happening baby, hut hut. What's up my Portuguese man o'war?


Chad (55s):

Nothing but mojitos and Portuguese wine. I mean you just can't, you can't beat it. The two things I'm going to have to get used to, first off getting bourbon here, I'm going to have to get a guy. That's all there is to it. Cause it's not easy to get bourbon. And all the bourbon that you can get is pretty much shit.


Joel (1m 12s):

Is it basically Jim, Jack and Johnny? Basically?


Chad (1m 17s):

Well, the guys you don't want at your party. And then the beer is tolerable, at best. So I'm just getting better at, you know, mixed drinks and wine. And I'm going to, wherever we land, I'm going to set up a bourbon guy. That's all there is to it. There's going to be a underground bourbon tunnel.


Joel (1m 37s):

I have visions of you like Chad's whiskey bar and just shit from America that's hard to find, or you can't find, or you don't get there. And, and it's boats and hoes, man.


Chad (1m 49s):

I can do it.


Joel (1m 49s):

I've already said they don't body shame out there. So I'll come out with my Speedo and we'll sell some whiskey baby.


Chad (1m 55s):

That's what I'm saying, baby. So I'm now an Albufeira probably saying that wrong, but this place I shit, you not is like a mix between Vegas, Nashville and Miami. Just better clubs and better beaches. It's amazing! Fucking crazy, dude. But, yeah so it's been a blast. We were in Faro Portimão. Now we're in Albufeira, got a few more weeks, a couple more locations where we're loving it


Joel (2m 24s):

And you've never looked as relaxed and happy as ever. And I still hate you. So let's get to some shout outs. Shall we?


Chad (2m 31s):

Football.


Joel (2m 31s):

Hell yeah. Well, by the time you listen to this, the Buccaneers will probably have beaten the Dallas Cowboys. So by the way, I called it again last week, but I'm gonna say it again. Penn State potentially upsets or sorry, Ball State potentially upsets Penn State this weekend at Happy Valley.


Chad (2m 46s):

Okay.


Joel (2m 47s):

This is the same ball, same team that won, won their bowl game last year. They had a pretty decent showing week one, Penn State's ranked number 11. This would probably be the biggest upset in Ball State history, which I'm alumni of for those listeners that don't know. So I'm going to be watching that game pretty closely.


Chad (3m 4s):

What you're saying is take the points?


Joel (3m 5s):

Take the points! 22 and a half, I think is the spread like take, Ball State in the points you won't be sorry.


Chad (3m 12s):

Well, shout out to Bill Bormann who actually threw out a term on the socials this week that I thought was fucking perfect. That's called herd stupidity. I think it's the perfect label for all of those who aren't Vaxxed while having the opportunity and ability to actually get that done. Thanks for sharing, Bill, more labels is what we need not, but it was funny anyway. Yeah.


Joel (3m 36s):

So I have a quick question. So Joe Biden is apparently gonna come out and say, if you're a federal employee, you got to get vaccinated. But also if you're a federal contractor, you have to be vaccinated. Now you come from that world much more than I do, although you're removed from it quite a bit. What kind of impact is is saying, if you have, if you're a federal contractor, you have to have employees vaccinated. What kind of impact is that gonna have on them?


Chad (3m 59s):

Most of these companies, I mean, we're talking about huge billion dollar organizations, who really are feeding off the tip of the U S government with federal contracts. I mean, hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, the federal government comes out and says, Hey, look, if you're taking money from us, here are the standards of which you are going to do business and you don't have to it's your choice to not do this, just so that you know, those contracts are going to dry out.


Joel (4m 29s):

So is it really a good chance that we're going to see Boeing, Northrop, Grumman? Like all these companies announce, we're all getting vaccinated because the government has said, if we want to keep our contract, we're going to have to legislate vaccinations in our company.


Chad (4m 42s):

It was funny. I think it was like around 2009, 2010. One of the heads of Talent over at Facebook came up to me at a conference and said, Hey, we just found out that we're federal contractors because the federal government pays them so much money, like in advertising. I think it's like Army or, you know, the services. And they're like, you know, we're a federal contractor. I'm like, well, you can turn that money down. They're like, we're not going to do that. So what do we need to do? Right. So you know, all these companies that you, you definitely the defense contractors, of course, but there are so many companies that you wouldn't even think that are federal contractors that take money from the federal government that is going to be a huge, huge impact.


Chad (5m 25s):

And I hope it happens fast.


Joel (5m 27s):

Yeah. That'll be interesting. So let's go back to football real quick with my shout outs. So we're playing a little fantasy football this year, powered by Poach, no insider trading there. So we have our lineup. Now we had our draft last night, but I wanted to give a shout out to our players who many of our listeners will know. So we got Quincy, the Queen of chatbots, she's playing this season. Jason Pottnam from Pando. Bill Fanning from This Way Global. Ben Kunz from Jobcase. Christie Moon, who I'm just going to say is a super fan of the show. Michael Cox, Chris Russell, and Pete Suchi, as well as you and me are playing fantasy. It should be a good time. We'll go through the leaderboard every week and we'll have something special and on brand for the winter.


Chad (6m 13s):

Gotta say my auto-draft is looking pretty damn good.


Joel (6m 20s):

Then we both get graded a C though.


Chad (6m 22s):

No, I got graded a B, you got graded a C. I do not know how the fuck Fanning got graded an A, I don't know. I looked at his lineup. I'm like, that's not an awesome fucking lineup. That's a C+ plus at best Fanning, I'm going to kick your ass just so you know it.


Joel (6m 37s):

It's not where you start. It's where you end, in fantasy. That's all I got to say.


Chad (6m 41s):

Yes. So shout out to our buddy Shane Gray, who is sailing the high seas.


Joel (6m 47s):

Your idol based on your photos.


Chad (6m 49s):

Yo dude hopping from island to island. I had a call with him earlier this morning. I was out on my terrace, overlooking the pool and he pulls up his video, he's on his fucking boat. So I'm like, yeah, you win good one. That's awesome. Shout out to Shane, guy's enjoying life. And again, we'll get one of these, guys, so it's time to enjoy.


Joel (7m 12s):

Living their best lives as well as some of our winners from this month, Chad, we give away whiskey and beer every month. And we announced our winners. Michelle Warg from Nexxt is our beer drop recipient and winning some whiskey is Justin Spencer from ZipRecruiter. Guys if you haven't signed up for free shit from us, go to Chadcheese.com/free. We got t-shirts from Emissary, beer from AdZuna and whiskey from Sovren. We'll be setting up those zoom tastings pretty soon with Justin and Michelle. Yes.


Chad (7m 44s):

Justin got hooked up, man. You sent him Eagle Rare and I sent him something that is an easy, perfect, wonderful drink as well. The Maker's 46.


Joel (7m 54s):

Your fave. Yeah. Eagle's tough to get. I was surprised to see that on the shopping list. So yeah, Justin enjoy that, my man. Yeah.


Chad (8m 4s):

So shout out to Shelly and Serge from the Recruitment Flex Podcast for having me on their kickoff episode for season two, entitled a Trip to Bullshit Mountain. You're going to enjoy that one, so check it out. Shelly and Serge from the Recruitment Flex Podcast. It's pretty much a rip off version of Chad and Cheese for Canada. So it's much nicer.


Joel (8m 27s):

I love it when you drag the Canadians down, to our level. Speaking of Canada, though, we have a story about this week, a Canadian out in Vancouver of all places, decided to pee on a Dairy Queen countertop after being told to wear a mask when he didn't want to. So Canadians act a little rambunctiously as well as Americans can.


Chad (8m 48s):

Hard to believe.


Joel (8m 49s):

And also shout out to a Panera employee.


Chad (8m 51s):

Oh God.


Joel (8m 51s):

Who outed Panera for having bagged soup. When apparently they're pitching it as homemade soup, this is on TikTok, which I'm telling you employers, if you're not concerned about employees talking shit on TikTok, you should be, because they are.


Chad (9m 8s):

Here's something else to watch for though, kids. Facebook is moving toward Google for Job types of guidelines for jobs that are actually in their platform. They're not forcing this, but what they're pretty much telling you is that you're going to get preference. If you have salary, address, remote type, whether it's FTE or temp benefits schedule type, whether it's day, night or flex. They're trying to, I wouldn't say crack down, but they want more information from the employer because you guys aren't really good at providing information to the people who are looking for fucking jobs. So how bout we do that better?


Joel (9m 46s):

To the metaverse with you, I say, to the metaverse. Happy Birthday to Matthew Adam, fan of the show and industry vet out there at NAS.


Chad (9m 58s):

Matt Adam, Happy Birthday, my man. Happy Birthday. And with that, Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Before we get into the topics, we've got to pimp the Voices that we just put out, Netflix style, baby.


Joel (10m 11s):

Let's go.


Chad (10m 12s):

With Amy Butchko who's Director of Talent Solutions over at SAIC. Five episodes, all dropped at once. Check them out. Subscribe. If you want to hear industry veterans who literally have been in the trenches, as recruiters and worked their way up to leaders in Talent Acquisition, Amy is one of those people.


Joel (10m 35s):

Yeah. Got some good feedback on that. And you dropped that shit Netflix style. You just dropped all five episodes, like no waiting at all. I enjoy that. All right, man.


Chad (10m 46s):

Topics!


Joel (10m 48s):

All right, this one just warmed my heart. Okay. Dice's parent company DHI (ticker DHX if you're playing Robinhood) is making a $3 million investment in the Muse, a job board with a focus on employer branding. Wait, Dice has $3 million? Anyway, the company said the investment will be used to support the expansion of the Muses product development and sales efforts to meet the increasing market demand for its unique values-based employer discovery offering. Terms of the plan transaction are not being disclosed at this time. So I don't know, maybe later we'll get numbers. The two companies will work together to develop joint sales thought leadership and product solutions.


Joel (11m 31s):

Our buddy and your boy, Dice CEO Art Zeal said "technologists are increasingly focused on the culture and values of potential employers as they make career decisions." So the employees who sit in the dark with headphones now care about culture. Chad help me with this one.


Chad (11m 49s):

I got nothing, man, I got to say though, congrats to the Muse. I mean, they got cash, but this shows the lack of discipline that DHI has. Properties like Dice are getting their asses handed to them because of their sheer lack of discipline and not understanding the market. This does nothing more than signal to the market, once again, DHI has no clue what they are fucking doing. And to be quite Frank, I mean, it's a diversion. It's a misdirection play. I just don't understand why they aren't focusing on the actual community themselves. Those individuals don't want warm and fuzzy culture fucking videos, or, you know, splash pages or marketing, those types of individuals see through that shit.


Chad (12m 39s):

Right? They want coding challenges. They want you to be able to help them open source. I mean, there's so many things that Dice could be doing right now, they are falling flat on their fucking face, again.


Joel (12m 50s):

Yeah. This one, had a few knee jerk reactions for me. One was, yeah, they have 3 million to throw at the Muse. And then it was like, why wouldn't they spend that on technology or hiring people who could make cool shit at Dice? Or maybe like buy a really young, I dunno, text recruiting company or chat bot organization or something like that.


Chad (13m 14s):

Coding?


Joel (13m 15s):

And then it was like, well, maybe this is just a midlife crisis for Dice. And then it's like, well, you know, Monster has lost at least one and a half generations now. I mean, they're an energy drink if you're a millennial or gen Z.


Chad (13m 29s):

Yeah.


Joel (13m 29s):

Dice is probably what, like online gambling or something too new generation? So to me, it was a little bit like when Yahoo bought Tumblr to try to look cool again and maybe jumpstart its brand. This is, this to me is like Dice buying a Tesla and a pair of Allbirds. It's trying to be a cool kid. And I don't see it, man. It feels like, you know, you or me going out and buying a Ferrari, like, it just doesn't make a lot of sense, but it makes you feel maybe warm and fuzzy. Now I do think on the Muse side, what does it say about them?


Chad (14m 2s):

Desperation?


Joel (14m 3s):

And I don't think it's good, right?


Chad (14m 5s):

No!


Joel (14m 5s):

Like we know that we know that from the pandemic, like the first people to go was the employer brand managers, the people that like all that warm and fuzzy stuff, kind of went by the wayside. And, I'm guessing that the Muse was hurt by that. I mean, they've been around since 2011, they've raised roughly $32 million. Maybe they're a little bit in a squeeze and in a bit of a financial corner and they called up Dice and said, Hey, grandpa, you want to, you want to get cool? Come put some money in us and it'll be all good. So it makes no sense? The market didn't react real optimistically about the move. So I guess maybe there's something greater at work here that we're not privy to, but it falls pretty flat.


Chad (14m 48s):

It was like somebody taking Twister into an old folks home. I mean, there's just no match. There's no adoption. People aren't going to use it. It's going to sit on the fucking bookshelf. Right? So to think that there's going to be some alignment of business strategies between these two organizations. It's not even hilarious. It's not even funny. I mean, it's sad, more than it is anything else.


Joel (15m 13s):

Yeah. I've got to really stretch myself to figure out how this makes sense. I don't know if it's like let's play some bets on companies that we think will be for sale later, that are high growth. But I mean the Muse is not at the top of the list for anybody.


Chad (15m 28s):

What I've got to say to DHI right now is go ahead and kick Zeal to the fucking curb, pull in Chad and Cheese as co-CEOs and we will fix that in less than 18 months.


Joel (15m 41s):

Well, at least they're not buying Wave companies when they do that, then Art's definitely got to go. Well, let's talk about a pivot that does make sense. Let's talk about Ucruit so demand for truck drivers continues to be just insane and drivers find themselves looking for better opportunities. So enter a recruiting software company Ucruit , who has built an app called Lane Finder to offer drivers "an efficient way to explore available opportunities." Tulsa, Oklahoma based Ucruit announced recently received an $11.5 million investment to support the continued growth of its trucking industry marketplace application. Founded in 2012, the company has raised 20 and a half million dollars total.


Joel (16m 23s):

CEO and co-founder Mats Holmback highlighted how you create was born as a general recruitment marketing tool focusing on multiple industries. But since last year had a one industry focus trucking. Are you ready to truck on down to Lane Finder?


Chad (16m 41s):

That's one hell of a pivot, but I got to say, it's what it really is, it's a staffing company, veiled as a tech company. Don't get me wrong, it's actually pretty damn smart because if you tell companies, come use our platform for free and only pay us when you hire drivers. Well, that seems like a good incentive. I mean, it's not revolutionary tech by any form or fashion, but does it really have to be when it's the trucking industry? No. So, you know, you get a free hiring platform. It's like an ATS lite, free job postings and a free career site. Just pay us when you get hires. It's the definition of getting a company hooked on crack. Now here's the genius part.


Chad (17m 21s):

ATS and CRMs for years have built a separate candidate database for every single one of their clients. Not in this model, using the free jobs and their clients as bait to attract candidates while building an all-you-can-eat database. When you only pay, when you hire people, they have found a way I believe to go around what we've been used to for years, which are these, oh, well, that's my candidate. It's the key to that ownership conversation, right? You don't own the candidate motherfucker. It's a free platform. It's my candidate. Right? So overall, this isn't revolutionary tech by any means, but the model is, it's pretty damn smart, I think.


Joel (18m 4s):

Chad, Where are the self-driving trucks they promised us?


Chad (18m 7s):

They're not coming anytime soon.


Joel (18m 8s):

Yeah, no, anytime soon. So my brother-in-law is actually in the trucking industry and it's a fucking cluster. I mean, it's like so many moving pieces, parts of the year that are busier than others. Shipments that come in when you don't expect them, you've got owners of trucks. You've got drivers, you know, like people work for companies and contractors.


Chad (18m 27s):

Crazy!


Joel (18m 27s):

I mean, it's just insane. So the marriage of mobile and technology and the gig platform phenomenon is like, no other industry comes together better than trucking. And you've got people that, you know, only want to truck certain times of the day or only want to do certain parts of the world or certain states. They want to take their dog with them and they want to be able to do shit. Like it's really crazy. So to have a technology like this makes total sense. And you know, I think if you were, if we were going to play who'd you rather, and it was Dice or Lane Finder. Lane Finder would get my rose for sure.


Chad (19m 7s):

No question. Remember BJ and the Bear? Remember that show?


Joel (19m 11s):

Of course, of course. The monkey, the seventies man, where it was okay for grown men to hang out with monkeys and truck across country.


Chad (19m 20s):

That's who they need as their, I don't know, figure heads, BJ and the Bear, bringing it right back back.


Joel (19m 28s):

Yeah. Yeah. They want to appeal to that gen Z candidate, BJ and the Bear. It's like a Grizzly Adams. Yeah, grown men and animals, that was kind of a thing back in the seventies. Let's take a break as we opine on the seventies and we'll come back, we'll talk about automation and Indeed. So Chad let's talk automation, let's talk Harvard. A new report from Harvard Business School was not very kind to recruitment automation saying automated hiring software is mistakenly rejecting millions of viable job candidates. The report said such automation programs are used by 75% of us employers.


Joel (20m 9s):

And about 99% of the Fortune 500, adding technology has made it easier for people to apply for jobs, but also easier for companies to reject them. One example in the report, highlighted how some systems automatically reject candidates with gaps of longer than six months in their employment history without ever asking the cause of this gap. Nearly nine out of 10 executives surveyed said they knew automated software was mistakenly filtering out viable candidates, with some saying they were exploring alternatives to automation. Aside from going back to 1991, I don't see how anything changes. Too much cost and too much time. How does this get fixed Chad?


Chad (20m 51s):

It seems like we have to continue to tell the Amazon story.


Joel (20m 54s):

Is this about peeing in trash cans again?


Chad (20m 56s):

No, not that story. That was a good one though. We'll talk about that later. When Amazon created an algorithm that looked at market data and then looked at the, I believe the actual hiring behaviors, historical hiring behaviors and became bias. It was looking at human behavior. It was looking at markets. I mean, if you're doing this without any type of oversight, then you're doing it wrong. And to be able to think that we can just push a button and this works is ridiculous. Now in all reality, let's just be incredibly honest here. The algorithm is only doing what humans have been doing for years.


Chad (21m 38s):

So to say, oh, that algorithm is biased. Well, yeah, but so are humans, they're just doing it at scale, that humans can't do it at. That's why we notice it. Instead of doing it in onesy, twosies, they're doing it in tens. They're doing it in hundreds. They're doing it in thousands. So to point at the algorithm and say that the algorithm is the problem, is a hundred percent wrong. You need the algorithm. You need the ability to scale. Period, right? What you are not doing, is you are not providing oversight, you are not auditing it because you are hoping it's a silver bullet. That's your decision, human being, talent acquisition, HR.


Chad (22m 21s):

That's not the fucking algorithms.


Joel (22m 24s):

Yeah. So what I loved was that 9 out of 10 executives surveyed said they knew automated software was mistakenly filtering out viable candidates, translation nine out of 10 executives hate their vendors. They hate the solutions that they're using.


Chad (22m 38s):

Whatever.


Joel (22m 38s):

So to me, it's like the burden is on the vendors, the software solutions to fix this shit.


Chad (22m 44s):

It's not.


Joel (22m 45s):

But I don't see companies fixing it themselves. They're going to just tell software to fix it somehow.


Chad (22m 52s):

And if your Talent Acquisition, VP of Talent Acquisition, or VP of HR, isn't astute enough to actually work with this type of tech, you need someone else.


Joel (23m 5s):

So, let's take the example of if someone has a six month gap in their resume, that right now we filter that person out, right? So your solution to that would be what?


Chad (23m 15s):

The solution to that is we did it before. It's a process methodology that the company came up with, not the vendor. This is not a part of the quote unquote vendor algorithm. This is something that is a process and standard operating procedure for companies. They've been using this and doing it for decades. Again, the only reason why we're noticing this is because it's happening at scale. Companies have been doing this for years. So to point at the algorithm or the vendors and say, oh, they're at fault is total bullshit.


Joel (23m 46s):

I agree with you. I just think the burden is going to be on them to fix it because I don't think companies want to look in the mirror and say, how do we fix this prescreening question of six months gap? Or how do we say, how do we fix that filtering that we've set in there. So to me, it's like, they're going to ask your chat bot solution or conversational AI to say, okay, we see that there's a six month gap in there. And the conversational AI is going to say, Hey, why is there a six month gap from the last time you were at work from here to here? And then whatever answer is given is either going to filter them in or out to continue to be in the process or to be considered for a job or not. So I just think the company is going to say, Hey, software solution, you need to fix you, like, how do we fix this filtering to not be a filtering question anymore?


Joel (24m 33s):

Or how do we dig deeper into this? Essentially creating nuance around the interviewing process, whether it be through conversational AI or I'm uploading a resume and doing a pre-screening test on my ATS. I just think that's how it's gonna work out. I don't think companies are gonna look in the mirror and fix it themselves.