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Indeed vs. LinkedIn - Battle for Europe

On this week's Fromage-free show we have insider reactions to the "Bain Capital House of HR Party", then the UK revives the spirit of Florence Nightengale through technology, and wait... Are we still talking about job boards? You're goddam right we are...

Buckle up kids, it's gonna be a bumpy ride...


INTRO (16s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (38s):

Welcome to a fromage free the Chad and Lieven does Europe podcast. I'm Chad "living the American dream in Europe" Sowash.

Lieven (48s):

I'm Lieven "totally objective as ever" Van Nieuwenhuyze

Chad (52s):

And on this week's episode, we have house party reactions, the UK revives, the spirit of Florence Nightingale. And wait, we're still talking about job boards? You're goddamn, right we are. Buckle up kids it's going to be a bumpy, bumpy ride Europe.

sfx (1m 11s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Chad (1m 12s):

Alright Lieven, what's going on big guy?

Lieven (1m 14s):

Well it's been a busy weekend you know.

Chad (1m 17s):

It has been a busy week and this week Cheeseman is out. You don't have to worry about listening to steak and grill remarks, but we've got a lot to get to. Plus we have an awesome interview at the end of this episode. So let's go ahead. Let's jump straight into shout outs. You go first, who you shouting out?

Lieven (1m 36s):

Shout out to the Belgium football team for giving the Dutch football team a false sense of confidence by losing four to one. And next time we're going to went from Wales because those bastards from Wales, won from Ukraine, which is so mean. So now we're going to win from Wales. We were supposed to lose from Ukraine, but they didn't. That's my shout out.

Chad (1m 56s):

Oh yes. Belgium did get tuned up by the Netherlands. That was four to one and you're saying that's a false sense of security. I appreciate that because we know World Cup is coming soon and Belgium is, you don't have a bad group. Belgium, Canada, Morocco, and Croatia. So that's, that's not too bad, but yes, I have to say, Welsh, kicking out a Ukraine over the weekend, you know, if you're Welsh you're happy and if you're anyone else it's much easier to hate the Welsh. Right?

Lieven (2m 25s):

I think, I think the Russians were happy too.

Chad (2m 28s):

I'm sure they were yes from a propaganda standpoint and a marketing standpoint. No shit. Cause everybody would have been what would have definitely had their own home team, but the Ukrainian team would have been number two. My shout out goes to, this is going to surprise you German unions. Last week, we talked about Elon Musk, who in a leaked email to employees, demanded workers get back to the office for a minimum of 40 hours a week. Well, that didn't play well in Germany with the Bridgette Deetseh or regional IG metal leader in a statement quote "in Germany and employer cannot dictate the rules just as he likes and a worker can rely on the strength and power of her or his union.

Chad (3m 14s):

If she or he does not want to accept the demands of the company," end quote. Recognizing the German constitutional protections for labor organizing. Sounds like Elon's bid to become world leader isn't going that well so far Lieven.

Lieven (3m 31s):

Still in Elon we trust but in this case, he probably made a stupid mistake. Asking people to come at least 40 hours to the office again, the at least was the wrong chosen word I think. In Europe we have a 38 hours working week so making that at least 40 is kind of pushing it with the unions.

Chad (3m 51s):

I think it's interesting. Just from the standpoint of, once again, we keep talking about how many of these organizations are actually just saying what they're thinking, others like Google, they're trying to boil the frog and try to slowly pull their employees back and then mandate them back into the office. We see that happening slowly where Elon's like, he's just saying what's on his mind. Hey, get your ass back in the office. I don't care. This is about control. It's not about reason.

Lieven (4m 18s):

No, probably not. And his excuse saying, I used to sleep in the office to give people confidence that this is one of the reasons we didn't go broke back in the days. He's maybe right. But even he is the boss and you can't expect the same enthusiasm from your own workers.

Chad (4m 33s):

Yeah. Well that's the funny part is when a leader says I slept here overnight. Well, yeah, you actually get a hell of a lot more money than I do too. So good for you right?

Lieven (4m 46s):


Chad (4m 46s):

Ah shit. So my last shout out, shout out to all of the attendees who are making the trek to conferences all over the world. First and foremost, the E recruitment Congress, which you know, was a huge hit in Belgium. And then the masses flooded Vegas for our second show of the year at Unleash. The FOMO is real kids. So do not repeat, do not miss RecFest, the biggest open air TA event in the world coming to you on July 7th at Knebworth Park in England. We Joel and I are emceeing the disrupt stage, which is all about technology. And wait a minute. Are you going to be there Lieven?

Lieven (5m 27s):

I was just thinking I'm actually Lieven for Scotland on the 8th, so maybe I can combine it, but I'm, I'm going on a trip to Scotland with my family. So I don't think there'll be too interested about joining RecFest, but I'll give it a go. I'll try.

Chad (5m 42s):

Okay. Well, when you do go to, click on events in the upper right-hand corner, get your tickets, bring the kids probably before noon, because things get a little crazy after the bars open at noon, but it is a blast. Again, beat the FOMO, get out there, enjoy it. Can't wait to see you there. You ready for some topics?

Lieven (6m 7s):


Chad (6m 8s):

Topics, baby. Oh my God dude. So you've had one hell of a week. Are you feeling lighter with the Bain Capital news off your back finally?

Lieven (6m 16s):

Yeah, definitely. It has been a hell of a few months, I guess. Not just a week, but now it's in the open and everything is okay. The deal is true. So we're happy and I hope Bain is too. I know they are.

Chad (6m 27s):

Okay. So we're missing Joel this week. So what I did for, for you and the listeners is I have a clip of him actually reading through the Bain Capital news from our show last week, entitled Bain Capital house party. Here we go.

Joel (6m 44s):

All right, Chad. Well, once again, everything, this podcast touches turns to gold. We should change our name to the Midas touch show. Anyway, our good friends at House of HR in Belgium announced that private investment firm, Bain Capital, maybe you've heard of them? Has entered into a share purchasing agreement for the acquisition of a 55% stake in the company. Financial details were not disclosed, but trust me, when we say it was a big number of kids. House of HR CEO, Rika Coppens said, quote, "with Bain Capital's investment in House of HR, we start a new chapter in our incredible story. We intend to continue our growth path based on strong organic growth combined with targeted and specialized M and A in existing markets.

Joel (7m 27s):

For the full year 2021 House of HR reported revenue of 2.2 billion euros, an increase of 18.8% compared to 2020. Chad, this is clearly a house made out of bricks. Your thoughts?

Chad (7m 41s):

We're going to need a bigger boat and well, you know, Bain has a superyacht so why the fuck not? Okay again for listeners, if you haven't checked out last week's Bain Capital house party episode, I encourage you to do so. Lieven, I know you heard it. So what did you think of Joel and my analysis?

Lieven (8m 0s):

I like you thinking that everything, this podcast touches turns to gold and I'm sure this is the reason why Bain invested in us. I must say I'm happy it's Bain, I mean, we've been through the whole process. I think it's three years ago now. And we've we saw some major companies. Bain was one of them. We saw some others, you know, the big, big investment funds like Bain. A few of those three years ago, they made an offer. But our current shareholder, Naxicap Partners., they could get more out of it and there were rights and they didn't need to sell because this is a pretty good company that gets a 12% EBITDA so they can give themselves some kind of cash out each year.

Lieven (8m 43s):

So it was okay and they could wait. And the reason why they didn't offer three years ago enough and the eyes of Bain Capital was because they thought, what if there comes a downturn? How well how's the House of HR react to a sudden, let's say a declining of the economy. We got COVID and nobody expected COVID, but during COVID we succeeded in even growing. We not one of our companies lost money in our country. How do you say the English in the country? They even grew so even though their margins grew, so that was the best proof of as being sustainable and being very adaptive, being able to adapt to a fast changing situation and COVID was the best proof.

Lieven (9m 28s):

So now Bain was convinced we were able to stand in the biggest storm. And I think this is the reason why now finally, they decided to invest in us and go for the long run.

Chad (9m 38s):

Awesome. That's awesome. So what was the number that was landed on? We saw published 2.5 to 3 billion euros. Can you settle that number for us?

Lieven (9m 48s):

I'm probably not supposed to, but it's a much closer to the three.

Chad (9m 55s):

55%. That's pretty awesome. Also your thoughts on my comments around you come at the king, you best not miss how House of HR, the growth that you guys have seen has been amazing, but at the top, the big dogs saying the Randstads and the Adeccos, they've been struggling, right? They've been making money, don't get me wrong, but they've been fighting back and forth. And two of those on the top of the mountain, it's a little bit easier to knock one of them off. Are you coming at the king? Is that what we're seeing with Bain Capital?

Lieven (10m 25s):

Well, today Randstad is the king and we're talking in just revenue around Randstad is the king. Are we coming for the king? Probably not yet. I mean, we have $2.2 billion. They ever bought last time I checked, I think 27 or something. So there still is a really, really, really big gap, but the gap is closing. And if you told me five years ago, it will be bigger than people. I would have laughed, but today it's almost a case or it is a case. So we are growing fast, much faster than the markets. And now with the new capital from Bain will be able to check for new markets to invest in new countries, to grow organically, but also to buy. So I think future is bright.

Chad (11m 5s):

Okay. So that being said, when you're looking at expanding into new countries, any on the hot list?

Lieven (11m 13s):

Yes. Yeah. I can share, maybe not yet. We have to keep something for our next episode. Is that right?

Chad (11m 18s):

Yes. Good call. Good call. So I got to say again, Bain has approximately $160 billion in assets currently under management. When I heard that Bain was the entity that was taking controlling stakes at 55%, I thought, wow, this is fucking big. So congratulations to you, to Rika the team. And it's just great to see House of HR just explode like this.

Lieven (11m 50s):

Hey, we're happy too

Chad (11m 51s):

I think you are.

Lieven (11m 53s):

Yeah. Now I'm definitely, I've talked to Bain and ask him, you have $167 billion is there's a big deal for you or not? and they say that has, because in Europe we only closed three deals like this each year. So we've been working very hard with a very big team on this. And I must say they were extremely professional. I wasn't directly involved in the whole process. I mean, it was mostly finance now because they already knew us. I met him two years ago and I have some, even during this process, but I mean, they asked so many questions to about ICT, about legal. And I am going to quote them three years ago they said, "we're going to crunch your numbers until they confess." So finally our number or numbers confessed, and they probably told the right stuff.

Chad (12m 39s):

That is amazing. Again, a House of HR Bain Capital at the altar that's pretty amazing. We will be back. And we're going to talk a little bit about the revival of Florence Nightingale. Right back after the break.

sfx (12m 54s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Chad (12m 59s):

Okay. Lieven. So the cash just keeps on coming. The following report coming from, a London-based marketplace that connects vacant care home shifts to local nurses and carers looking for extra work. Florence has raised $35 million in series B. The funding will be used to further expand the product offering to include services beyond elderly care. Since 2017, Florence has raised close to 50 million looking to make the lives of nurses, not only more manageable, but also more profitable. Florence cuts out the agency middleman and gives those healthcare workers direct access to open shifts.

Chad (13m 46s):

Healthcare has been hot for years now, Lieven like decades. What's your thoughts on Florence getting into just the UK space.

Lieven (13m 52s):

First of all, I always start with the name. You know, why I think names are important and Florence just as a great name, I already spoiled it. And Florence Nightingale. She used to be a, she was a founder of modern nursing. She used to be active in the Crimean war in 1853 it was everyone knows this, not sure about America, but in Europe, we all know it was from 1853 to 1856, and Russia lost to an Alliance of France, UK, Ottoman empire, blah, blah, blah. So Florence Nightingale used to be a very, very famous nurse. And now they've chosen this name. So it's a good name. First point, I liked the name. And then of course you can't go wrong with nurses, feel safe at night, sleep with nurse they say, so nurses, nurses are a good thing.

Lieven (14m 41s):

But we have been struggling to find good companies. And for example, the segment of nursing and nurses, and we have TMI in the Netherlands, we have Avanti in Germany and they are doing really well, but it's hard to find a company which is for sale.

Chad (14m 58s):


Lieven (14m 58s):

And doing a good thing because there are not enough nurses and it's very hard to get them onboard and to put them at your clients. So

Chad (15m 6s):

Are you seeing this because of the population boom, cause here in the US the boomer generation is huge and they're retiring. And obviously, you know, healthcare has been, I don't want to say an issue, but it is becoming more of an issue because we need more healthcare workers. Are you seeing the same thing in Europe that we're seeing here?

Lieven (15m 29s):

Definitely. And also our eyes opened during COVID. I mean, we just didn't have enough healthcare professionals and there has always been a problem, but suddenly it was acute to us. It was a massive problem. So now people are aware of it. And I think today having a platform to match nurses and opportunities can be a huge success. As long as you can convince the nurses to use it

Chad (15m 53s):

Yeah, yeah.

Lieven (15m 54s):

Because they don't have big difficulties and looking for a job. So that will be our biggest issue to convince the nurses and to have enough opportunities for them. Because I know many hospitals, my wife is a doctor, and it's even more, how do you say, they aren't the biggest innovators concerning HR. I mean, it's a very conservative business and human resources is conservative already, but human resources within the nursing, or, but in the hospital, health care it's even worse. So those people are probably not the most open to using new systems.

Chad (16m 32s):


Lieven (16m 33s):

But if you offered them something which works, they will use it.

Chad (16m 37s):

What about nurses or healthcare workers working across European borders? Is it, do they have that kind of mobility or do they not? Because here in the states, in some cases you have to have a certification state by state. Is that the same thing country by country in the EU or just Europe as a whole?

Lieven (16m 56s):

No. Ah, that's for once it's I think better in Europe then, I mean, state-by-state that surprises me Europe. It's so great. The moment you have your, how do you say to your

Chad (17m 7s):


Lieven (17m 8s):

Or certification to work as a nurse. Within Europe it's not a problem. And also many companies tried, it's probably the wrong word, but importing nurses from outside of Europe, like the Philippines and the north of Africa. But as far as I know, it's never succeeded. It's why, because there was a language problem and you can give those people a really good course with a one year course. They just won't be able to speak to the patients as they should.

Chad (17m 35s):


Lieven (17m 35s):

That's a problem. And that's still is a problem in Europe. Even within Europe, there are so many languages.

Chad (17m 42s):


Lieven (17m 42s):

Yeah. Everyone speaks English. Yes. But the old people, maybe they don't.

Chad (17m 45s):

A friend of ours in Portugal. She's a healthcare worker. She actually worked in Brussels for, I think it was three years and she did speak a Flemish and also Dutch, probably not as well, obviously is people in Belgium. But she did say that, you know, it was something that, you know, you had to focus on very heavily and it was hard. So yeah, that was a huge issue for her. And she's back in Portugal now because you know, it's a lot easier for her to find and do work.

Lieven (18m 17s):

I can imagine. And we have the same experience with different jobs. We have people working from birth to goal in all kinds of industries, all over Europe, but now they're getting back to Portugal because the economy is growing also, there and people want to go home.

Chad (18m 31s):


Lieven (18m 31s):

And nurses are different thing. And did you know, by the way that I'm not sure if it's the same thing in the US but in Europe, within all job categories,

Chad (18m 46s):

Categories. Yeah.

Lieven (18m 46s):

Categories, right. Nurses are the most active on social media.

Chad (18m 51s):


Lieven (18m 51s):

From all of the categories nurses are the most active and the less are the least active are, who do you think are the least active?

Chad (19m 2s):

Probably the physicians, the doctors.

Lieven (19m 3s):

Not even the legal profiles. Oh,

Chad (19m 4s):


Lieven (19m 5s):

Yeah. Because they probably don't trust anyone. So they stay away from it. And I guess they're right. Yeah. But the nurses are very active. So maybe a digital profile using social to connect on a social referral. We have nurses that could work, I believe in it.

Chad (19m 20s):

Yeah. I think, I think tech provides quicker access to open positions and quicker access to labor as well. Right. So it goes both ways. So not to mention scale. So that's something that it's hard to do with humans and that's what we talk a lot about on this show. So if they can get some type of adoption from healthcare workers that can see that within different healthcare systems, they can pick up different shifts then there's, I think there's an opportunity there. We're seeing the same here in the U S with different platforms that are opening up as well. So it's pretty encouraging because if we can better utilize the workforce that we have now, then we know, I think in better, better areas where to grow.

Chad (20m 6s):

And it sounds like Europe is in pretty much the same situation we are.

Lieven (20m 9s):

Yeah. Of course. And people are getting older, so we need more nurses. We need people for the elderly institutions.

Chad (20m 17s):


Lieven (20m 18s):

Oh yeah, definitely. You were talking about the shifts. And I looked at the trust pilots from foreign staff. They use trust pilots to give people the opportunity to give their experience with the platform. And overall, they have a very good score, but I was surprised I'm going to quote one, one of the users of Florence said, "please don't waste your time registering. It's a great company overall, but they've over employed people, especially in Glasgow, no shifts at all. I wish they controlled that you'll go months and months without shifts." And I was surprised because I thought their biggest problem would be getting to the nurses. It's the companies would be all over them.

Lieven (20m 60s):

Apparently they're not. And that's probably because it's so conservative.

Chad (21m 2s):

Maybe, but this also might be that supply versus demand kind of curve that you have to work on now that they have the supply that can go back to the companies and they can start selling that demand. Cause I mean, really all of this is a new age type of staffing, right? It's happening via transaction versus kind of quote unquote "placement", let's say. So it could just be that they're ginning up a bunch of talent to be able to go back and then start getting adoption from the healthcare facility.

Lieven (21m 31s):

I agree with two counts, let your talent wait. And it's only one guy, of course, but he says, you'll go months and months without shifts. People won't wait months and months. I just remember I was talking to someone from TMI, the company who is also in secondment of nurses, of nurses and in the Netherlands. And they had a great idea and it works really well. You know, the Netherlands used to have colonies like, and still have them, but they are not colonies anymore. Like Aruba and some other islands and the Caribbean in the Caribbean. And they work with those islands and they have offices there as well. And they offer nurses in the Netherlands, the opportunity to go work for six months or longer, if you want to, let's say some islands in the Caribbean.

Lieven (22m 16s):

And this of course for young people is great. You finished high school or college, what's it called? And you can go, do get some experience and get a nice suntan. And that's the reason why they got so many nurses.

Chad (22m 31s):


Lieven (22m 32s):

And then they also put people in, in Switzerland where there just gets paid ridiculously well.

Chad (22m 38s):


Lieven (22m 38s):

For an intensive care unit nurse, they gets about 9,000 euros a month, which is enormous.

Chad (22m 44s):

Yeah. Well, Switzerland is also pretty damned expensive.

Lieven (22m 47s):

Indeed yea, but we have Avanti in Germany and they put German nurses in Switzerland and they don't have the language problem. It's the same language. Yeah. And they have the big money advantage even from Germany to Switzerland.

Chad (23m 1s):

We'll continue to take a look at the space, not to mention Florence because this is going to just explode. But at this point we're going to move on to job boards. That's right. Kids. I said, job boards, people are sick and tired of talking about job boards. But

sfx (23m 18s):

Hell Yeah!

Chad (23m 19s):

According to our friends, over at the intelligence group and their 2022 survey, Indeed is the European market leader as most named and preferred job board. Quote "Indeed has a strong position in Western Europe, particularly in the UK, Ireland, the Netherlands, France, Sweden and Germany" said Geert Jan Waasdorp founder and CEO of the Intelligence Group. But you got to remember that Europe has a bunch of countries in it. So the argument made by an article on ToTalent could therefore be made that Indeed is the Europe's market leader, but the leading job board company pays very little or even no role in various Eastern European countries some Scandinavian countries, as well as Spain and Portugal.

Chad (24m 9s):

These countries where local job boards have heavily dominated. And so did anything surprise you in this survey?

Lieven (24m 14s):

Oh, surprise me not really, but as you say, Europe has a bunch of countries in it and in the countries where there is a big local brands than Indeed will never be number one.

Chad (24m 25s):


Lieven (24m 25s):

LinkedIn is something else. LinkedIn offers much more, but Indeed, basically is a scraper and they scraped and they're very good in scraping, but scraping isn't rocket science and they are very, very good and search engine marketing.

Chad (24m 38s):


Lieven (24m 38s):

And that's also not rocket science, but it's more complicated. So Indeed it's really good, but I live thanks to Google everyone else. Indeed is in my opinion, pretty easy to copy. And if you have a local approach with a local knowledge of the markets, you can, in my opinion, pretty easily, you win from Indeed, it's as a gonner. And I mean, they, they need Google and Google doesn't like him. So their situation is just not comfortable. LinkedIn is something else. They have their own sustainable database, self-sustainable database. They have over 800 million of CVS, which are up to date. You can't copy that from day to day. I mean, people need to make an effort. You need to make a new profile.

Lieven (25m 19s):

You need to put your information on it. Why would you?

Chad (25m 26s):


Lieven (25m 27s):

So I think LinkedIn, yes, Indeed their reason for existing as it's lowering.

Chad (25m 32s):

Well, it's interesting though, because Indeed has still, they're still getting lifts from Google. I mean, decades in and whether Google likes them or not search engine optimization is about trust and history. Right. And Indeed has that in Google likes something about Indeed.

Lieven (25m 49s):

Money I'd guess.

Chad (25m 50s):

Yea, and trust and history. Yeah. But I was surprised you talked about LinkedIn. I was surprised about the piece of intel where LinkedIn. Yes. LinkedIn is increasingly becoming a sourcing channel and talent are leaving LinkedIn because they're sick and tired of getting spammed by recruiters.

Lieven (26m 11s):

That's right.

Chad (26m 11s):

The development in the UK may indicate that LinkedIn is past its peak. So, you know, you were just talking about how they have that great database, but the problem is, if it's being spammed, if it's being used in and what job seekers think nefarious ways that could also topple LinkedIn, right?

Lieven (26m 28s):

Yeah. But spanning is only for like, I think 10% of the profiles. I mean, if you're an it or net program programmer, if you are an engineer you'll get spammed, but 80% of the profiles, aren't one of those. And those people probably are happy when they get a nice job offer. So I guess, yes, for the most needed profiles, they might try to ignore you and they will leave LinkedIn. They probably won't leave it, they just want to check their mails constantly. But for the others, I think it will still work.

Chad (26m 58s):

So I got to say great survey and data from the Intelligence Group and sponsor the podcast and the five top job boards. This is funny. Number one, we talked about Indeed. Number two, LinkedIn. Number three, InfoJobs. We'll talk about that one in a minute. Number four, this just blows my mind Monster. Number five StepStone. So first off many Americans that are listening to this podcast have no clue what InfoJobs is. Are they in multiple countries? Are they all over Europe or are they just really heavily good in certain countries?

Lieven (27m 39s):

They call themself the leading career site in Europe as so many career sites do. I hardly knew the myself. They're, I guess Spain based if I'm right and they are active in a few countries, but, and our main countries, they are not active. In the countries where we're at. So I've never worked with them. I hardly know them. I know their name and I know a bit about them, but it's not really. So this is one of those local branches who tried to conquer Europe, but it's difficult just because it's a bunch of countries and Indeed succeeded because they had something new. When, when Indeed started the scraping thing was new. So they actually conquered the world.

Lieven (28m 19s):

But if you want to do it now, again, it will be difficult.

Chad (28m 24s):

Monster is still in the top five. How in the hell is this even happening?

Lieven (28m 30s):

It's fake news. I mean, it's impossible. But in Belgium the last time I saw the real numbers, they only had 6,000 users a month. I mean, that's ridiculous to give you a, something to compare with because Belgium is a small country we only have like 10 million people. But the Flemish department of labor, they have a job boards and they have over 100,000 users each day. So Monster is nearly dead in Belgium and it's a bit better off in the Netherlands. But I think they are retreating to the United States.

Chad (29m 6s):

Is this just brand awareness really? I mean, job seekers have known, especially older job seekers have known Monster for so long. It's just the first thing that they spit out of their mouth.

Lieven (29m 13s):

Yeah, of course. I asked my students, which job boards do you know, if you, if you give them a list, if you've talked to them about Monster, they think it's an energy drink. I mean, Monster, they don't know it. They have never heard about it's. Why would they, if they're 20 years old, Monster is not making any commercials here. So how could they know them?

Chad (29m 33s):


Lieven (29m 33s):

And there's a reason why those local brands are mostly doing goods because they are part of publisher groups. And those publisher groups have newspapers. They have websites, they have mailings, they have all kinds of other stuff. So they keep repeating to new groups of people that they exist. And Monster just couldn't do it. It's the same with StepStone and StepStone is part of a bigger group. So StepStone probably can to a certain extent, but even they have problems.

Chad (30m 2s):

Yes, no. They pulled out of France. They're obviously heavy in Germany. So yeah, we've seen that StepStone are having their problems as well. If anybody wants this survey, you can go to Intelligence Group, just go to Google and Google Intelligence Group, or they're in the Netherlands. Check it out. You can download it there, Lieven. We are going to end this podcast on a damn good note. And, anything that has to do with the E-recruitment Congress is a damn good note. Anybody who missed it, the E-recruitment Congress happened earlier in may. We were lucky enough to be on the ground and doing some interviews. This interview is with Arjan Elbers founder and managing director of Get Noticed.

Chad (30m 46s):


Joel (30m 46s):

Hey guys, we're back at, we're live at the E-recruitment Congress here in beautiful Ostend, Belgium.

Chad (30m 54s):

You're feeling the FOMO right now aren't ya?

Joel (30m 53s):

We got Dutch Belgium speaker stereo situation here. Anyway, I want to introduce Arjan Elbers.

Chad (30m 58s):


Joel (30m 58s):

He is the co-founder you liked that? It was good. Yeah. Yeah. Little Dutch in there for you. He is the co-founder and CEO of Get Noticed! Arjan` welcome to the podcast.

Arjan (31m 11s):

Thank you.

Joel (31m 11s):

Another stylish European joining us.

Chad (31m 14s):

Yes. Very much.

Joel (31m 21s):

I love the cow skin converse. Chuck Taylors. Those are

Arjan (31m 25s):

From the states. Really.

Chad (31m 26s):

Of course they are. Really very nice.

Joel (31m 27s):

Very nice from America

Chad (31m 28s):

Chuck Taylor just so everybody knows Columbus, Indiana kids. That's right. That's where Chuck Taylor came from. So tell us today you're on stage. Got a chance to actually talk. What'd you talk about?

Arjan (31m 40s):

Well, I had to talk about future proof recruitment websites.

Chad (31m 43s):

Future proofing recruitment websites. We need that because

Joel (31m 47s):

Sounds impossible.

Chad (31m 47s):

There are a lot of shitty recruitment websites that are out there.

Arjan (31m 51s):

That's correct.

Chad (31m 51s):

Right. So I'm right? Okay. How does a company, because this is such a deep kind of like conversation today. Let me throw this out. We've talked about this on hundreds of shows.

Arjan (32m 7s):

I know.

Chad (32m 8s):

Candidates are applying to jobs and they are not completing the application. 92% are not completing the app. That's a horrible experience, right?

Arjan (32m 16s):

I know .

Joel (32m 18s):

It's like clicking buy now and not puchasing.

Arjan (32m 23s):


Chad (32m 23s):

Putting something in your cart.

Joel (32m 25s):

Yes, exactly.

Arjan (32m 27s):


Joel (32m 27s):

Lot of empty carts out there.

Chad (32m 28s):

Exactly. So how do you change that? 92% ejection rate to more of a 92% of application?

Joel (32m 37s):

A hundred percent.

Arjan (32m 38s):

I love to question the guys because my talk was mainly about this topic. How do you increase your conversion? And it starts with a great candidate experience and stop using applicant buttons, apply here. You don't use the form in your page. That's one. Don't ask more then you should ask

Chad (33m 3s):

There it is. So half an hour application process, not smart.

Arjan (33m 9s):


Joel (33m 10s):

That's actually pretty good for a lot of sites. Yeah.

Arjan (33m 13s):

And I had to show the crowds I was presenting for. They use accounts for applications and killer questions. Now I say that's only one knockout question. I believe in is "dear candidate do you have a heartbeat?" When yes you are through when out, don't ask. Don't it's stupid. Don't do it in this market. So make it easier and think about your candidate before doing it.

Joel (33m 38s):

The product sits on top of an ATS. So your hope is that when someone clicks jobs on a corporate website, they go to your site.

Arjan (33m 49s):


Joel (33m 49s):

Give our listeners a few tips on what really works on that landing page, if you will and what doesn't work.

Chad (34m 2s):

Yeah. You got to Get Noticed and you buy their product.

Arjan (34m 8s):

Yeah, that's good. No, I think in first instance, it's very important to think and rethink about your target audience. What do we recruiters and marketers and HR professionals do? We send our message to the world. This is my job, that's it? So he will take it like a man and use it. That's real strange because you have a super target groups you want to talk to. When I want to talk and communicate to trainees, it's another type of labor market communication then I use with professionals or with the students or with people who are coming in via site recruitment or otherwise.

Arjan (34m 51s):

So that's very, very important. And you have to use your labor markets communication for that target group and not for the rest of the world, not the world's your customer. Right. I'm a very big believer of that.

Chad (35m 5s):

Well, everybody does, right. They're like everybody's going to come to our website. So we have to make sure we have a broad enough phrase.

Joel (35m 13s):

Be as vanilla as possible.

Arjan (35m 15s):

Yes, please.

Chad (35m 15s):

Yeah. Yeah. So that's correct. So how do you, I guess from the standpoint of an organization, let's say for instance, that is incredibly diverse with regard to the types of positions and whatnot. Do you like force them out to different landing pages that are more focused on them or,

Arjan (35m 35s):

Okay. And we also use career domain pages. So for example, I used an example just 10 minutes ago for Dutch bank. We made a career domain page and it's a domain page of everything in risk and control, all jobs and all communication and all answers on the question. What's in it for me as a potential candidate is been answered over there. I don't have to tire you it's HR jobs are with marketing jobs. Now it's about debts. So that's the first. So rethink your target audience and the second advice, I'm a strong believer of is one conversion is no conversion.

Arjan (36m 16s):

You have to use soft conversions. So for example, we made a case with a big tech company, real big high-tech company, where does an only an application button, but some of your target group audience is very shy when it comes to doing an application. So we added another button with question. Do you have a question? It's so it's so simple like it sounds, but it increased conversion with more than 40%.

Chad (36m 42s):

People had more questions right out of the gate and they didn't just want to apply. And since you could answer their questions and you made them happier about their, or at least more wanting to apply because they knew at that point. Okay. Yeah, no, I know more about this organization now.

Arjan (36m 58s):

But it's also an alternative for an application. Right. And what does the recruiter do through the phone? Of course he smells an engineer from 100 miles away. So he says, okay, that engineer's mine, but you don't. So the application itself is a little bit exciting to your engineer. Okay. Let me talk to you VR, you have a question about salary or a contract or the procedure or whatever. And then we see the increasement, and it also stands for the job alerts for other question, for newsletters, for content questions, for job note fire using WhatsApp, Facebook messenger make it feel soft conversions.

Joel (37m 37s):

I love the Dutch humility, and that he said a big tech company, but didn't even mention the company. Talk about mobile for a second. I think sorta we take it for granted, but the amount of traffic that comes in through mobile, the preference of people to apply to jobs and visit mobile sites. I think people don't appreciate, help them appreciate it unless I'm wrong, and then what tips would you give to make sure the mobile experience is different? How is it different? What do you got to make? What checks do you have to tick off to make sure that your mobile site kicks ass?

Arjan (38m 9s):

Well, I know you've talked also a lot about it in your podcast, but how do people have a resume on your smartphone? You don't and don't try, well, we have for Google drive or Dropbox now. Forget it. Don't ask for a resume when people are doing an application online. So your website has to see on what device it has been looked at, at the moment. And if you have that, then you can serve them a mobile first website. We are really mobile first builder so that's the first thing we look at. We know indeed, 74, 75% of all traffic comes in via smartphone and people want to convert directly.

Arjan (38m 51s):

So kill the resume and kill the motivation. Let the recruiters do their jobs. They have to do it. I want to do an application via WhatsApp, Facebook messenger, or only a name and an email address and a telephone number. And that's it. That's it.

Joel (39m 3s):

I love that you said messaging. And I think people forget that as part of the mobile strategy. So I'm glad that you brought that up.

Chad (39m 15s):

The mobile strategy right now, right? It should be.

Joel (39m 18s):

Many strategies. Mobile. We'll get to the metaverse in a second. Let's keep talking about the mobile experience and how to make that as good as possible.

Arjan (39m 28s):

Yeah. We optimized our websites for mobile and we saw, okay, when you use with drop down, so you get a level short title in your communication and you give a dropdown is more friendly to scroll. People know how to scroll with one hand and one thumb only. They know how to use it, so trust them.

Joel (39m 43s):

Back to the don't have the apply button or don't have the typical resume. What's your recommendation, or how do you guys do it? Is it a chat situation, whereas while I'm answering questions, I'm also filling out an application? Is it just give us some basic information and we'll email you the application later? How do you guys do it?

Arjan (40m 5s):

Well it really depends on the target group on the target audience also, because I know for example, the high-tech professionals don't use chatbots, for some companies tested it and they're not happy with it. So don't do it, but

Joel (40m 19s):

Who's not the employers or the job seekers?

Arjan (40m 21s):

Job seekers.

Joel (40m 21s):

Job secrets are unhappy with.

Arjan (40m 24s):

High-tech professionals who were looking, they were annoyed by the chatbots.

Chad (40m 27s):

Developers did not want to chat bot.

Arjan (40m 30s):

That's where developers and I don't need this right now. I'm not on Amazon

Joel (40m 33s):

Too good for a chat bot.

Chad (40m 34s):

I developed a chat bot and you suck.

Arjan (40m 36s):

I made the stuff.

Joel (40m 37s):

I made the stuff you're doing, I'm onto you.

Arjan (40m 39s):


Joel (40m 39s):

It's not going to take it like a man.

Arjan (40m 42s):

Well. So, but I think it's really depends on the target audience. It can be very strong, but you have to really take a look and you have to make conversion fit to your target audience. So for an account manager, it can be an otherwise conversion then for an executive.

Joel (41m 1s):

You're talking about a lot of customization. Are you creating those separately? Separate landing pages for each of these campaigns, is it one central site where, Hey, if someone comes in from Portugal, they're going to get Portuguese. If someone comes into the site from America, they're going to get English or have the option for Spanish. Like, what recommendations do you give? Should it be one central homogenous site? Or do you like a lot of landing pages and specific strategies?

Arjan (41m 31s):

Yeah. It also depends on the customer and the customer budget, because like no money,

Chad (41m 36s):

No money, no money.

Arjan (41m 36s):

Some customers they think, and they called us and said, well, we need a high-end recruitment website that can you build this? And then we will ask further, why do you need it? What do you want to go? I want to hire 20 a call center agents. And I don't build high-end recruitment websites. It's too much guys, no really, a great landing page and that's enough, that's it. When you get all the way for an enterprise client, we can make multi-language multi-country and you come in at your own domain and your own extension. And you, I prefer that you also, I direct you as soon as possible to your career domain.

Arjan (42m 16s):

As the example I used for the bank, I know, you know, you want to do something in IT or in marketing. I don't want to show you the rest. I know you're not going to do the hospitality or the HR when you in a marketing.

Chad (42m 30s):

All those companies that are out there today that have half hour application processes. Right. And they come to you, right. And they say, I need you cause you're consulting them. Right. I need you to do this, but I have to have, you know, this long application process. So what do you tell them?

Arjan (42m 50s):

Stop it. That's yeah, this is real. That's and we tell them, okay guys, look at the world of e-commerce. Every question you ask is killing four or five, 6% of your conversion rate. So it's a wonder when somebody fills in 20 gaps in your application form, it's a wonder, you have to hire him blind because his attitude is superb. People don't want to do it. And a lot of customers think, well, when you take the application and the job serious, you will go shit for it. But it's absolutely not true. People leave you in an instant heartbeat and they go away to be never been heard of again. Yeah.

Chad (43m 30s):

We're in a job seeker market right now.

Arjan (43m 32s):


Chad (43m 32s):

So you have to be flexible and future-proofing means that you should be able to be more flexible in your process. Right? Okay.

Arjan (43m 40s):

And the process, but also in the type of jobs. So a lot of I heard this morning, I could translate to my own business and own type of business. I think it has to be flexible. I don't believe and people ask us questions and clients. Ah, what do you do with AI and VR and AR? I don't know. We built great recruitment websites, guys. What you have now, it's not okay. Please increase it. And please optimize this in first instance and then let's talk about AI, but you have 500 jobs to fill, get a life. Get real. Yeah.

Joel (44m 16s):

Yeah. All right. Let's talk about it. Cause you may not be doing it, but I know you're thinking about it.

Arjan (44m 25s):


Joel (44m 25s):

Virtual reality, augmented reality.

Arjan (44m 27s):


Joel (44m 27s):

Metaverse are you buying, are you buying or selling any of those and why?

Arjan (44m 31s):

Where, how do you say it in English scrunching against it to virtual reality, we're touching it.

Chad (44m 36s):

Tilling the water.

Joel (44m 37s):

Okay. Dipping the toe in the water.

Arjan (44m 38s):

That's a nice one. Dipping the toe. We want to use the virtual reality. That's really cool because I can show you how it is. I don't have to tell it. I can show you. And that's why I believe in a great candidate experience. What we did build was it was a 360 environment, a 360 environment with an interactive question and learning part. So the candidate could touch it itself. And it touches VR.

Chad (45m 16s):

Stop talking to Cheeseman about touching. It's just too intimate.

Joel (45m 19s):

Please go on. Please say more.

Arjan (45m 22s):


Joel (45m 22s):

So VR you're bullish on VR.

Arjan (45m 24s):

I think it's to

Joel (45m 24s):

It's on the curve right?

Arjan (45m 26s):

Yeah. It's on the curve and it's too difficult to send the gear and the glasses and to do it good. It's too difficult and too, too heavy to use it on a daily base.

Chad (45m 44s):

Joel has a suit. That's why he's. He's excited.

Arjan (45m 52s):

I know. It's really cool.

Joel (45m 53s):

I have a room and a suit. I fly around.

Chad (45m 57s):

His wife to lock him in.

Joel (45m 60s):

Gravity defying cables in my room.

Chad (46m 2s):

He said cool.

Joel (46m 3s):

He's Dutch. He's down. All right. Let's get folks. Okay. VR you're you're buying VR.

Arjan (46m 8s):


Joel (46m 8s):


Arjan (46m 8s):

Didn't see the big solution, but it's still looking for it.

Joel (46m 12s):

Metaverse. The big one.

Arjan (46m 14s):

Yeah. A metaverse. That's that's what we're all looking for. Of course. What are we doing?

Joel (46m 19s):

Are you buying the metaverse?

Arjan (46m 20s):


Chad (46m 20s):

I'm not buying the metaverse.

Arjan (46m 23s):

I know. It's difficult. My marketing professionals are buying it. They're in love with it. Yeah.

Joel (46m 28s):

Customers, prospects asked you about the metaverse and if so, what do they know what they want to do?

Arjan (46m 33s):


Joel (46m 33s):

They haven't even brought it up yet.

Arjan (46m 40s):

They have a, they have an issue. And in Dutch we call it a it's each instrument. There's something, but we don't know what it is. And that's it. So

Chad (46m 48s):

You're still trying to get pay-per-click for God's sakes. IT's the truth.

Joel (46m 51s):

He liked that.

Arjan (46m 52s):

So a lot of customers ask us about it and in early as the same was about Google for Jobs. What's it going to be? What's going to do, there was a bus and people ask us and they call us. Well, that's not, we don't want to dominate the metaverse, but I have I'm fair. I have some recruitment, marketers on my payroll and they don't laugh at it. They're absolute true believers. I don't know what yet.

Chad (47m 20s):

So Arjan, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate the time. Now, if somebody wants to find out more about you or Get Noticed, where would you send them?

Joel (47m 36s):

Or jump in the metaverse?

Chad (47m 38s):

Oh my god.

Arjan (47m 39s):

Or in your room suits.

Joel (47m 41s):

Not yet.

Arjan (47m 41s):

That's cool.

Chad (47m 43s):

We're not talking about anymore.

Arjan (47m 44s):

The most easiest is just getnoticed.n

Chad (47m 47s): That's awesome.

Joel (47m 49s): Is there an English version?

Arjan (47m 52s):


Joel (47m 53s):

Use your translation browser

Chad (47m 55s):

And happens on Google automatically. Go ahead. Joel. Say his name. Cause you got his name, right? Right.

Joel (48m 3s):

Arjan Elbers we appreciate it. Thanks for coming down. Enjoy the rest of the show.

Chad and Cheese (48m 2s):

We out.

Chad (48m 7s):

To me? That interview says what's old is new again. Well Lieven, that's another cheese free episode in the books my friend.

Chad and Lieven (48m 15s):

We out, we out.

OUTRO (48m 17s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird.

OUTRO (48m 57s):

We out.


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