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Indeed vs. LinkedIn - Battle for Europe

On this week's Fromage-free show we have insider reactions to the "Bain Capital House of HR Party", then the UK revives the spirit of Florence Nightengale through technology, and wait... Are we still talking about job boards? You're goddam right we are...

Buckle up kids, it's gonna be a bumpy ride...


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INTRO (16s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (38s):

Welcome to a fromage free the Chad and Lieven does Europe podcast. I'm Chad "living the American dream in Europe" Sowash.

Lieven (48s):

I'm Lieven "totally objective as ever" Van Nieuwenhuyze

Chad (52s):

And on this week's episode, we have house party reactions, the UK revives, the spirit of Florence Nightingale. And wait, we're still talking about job boards? You're goddamn, right we are. Buckle up kids it's going to be a bumpy, bumpy ride Europe.

sfx (1m 11s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Chad (1m 12s):

Alright Lieven, what's going on big guy?

Lieven (1m 14s):

Well it's been a busy weekend you know.

Chad (1m 17s):

It has been a busy week and this week Cheeseman is out. You don't have to worry about listening to steak and grill remarks, but we've got a lot to get to. Plus we have an awesome interview at the end of this episode. So let's go ahead. Let's jump straight into shout outs. You go first, who you shouting out?

Lieven (1m 36s):

Shout out to the Belgium football team for giving the Dutch football team a false sense of confidence by losing four to one. And next time we're going to went from Wales because those bastards from Wales, won from Ukraine, which is so mean. So now we're going to win from Wales. We were supposed to lose from Ukraine, but they didn't. That's my shout out.

Chad (1m 56s):

Oh yes. Belgium did get tuned up by the Netherlands. That was four to one and you're saying that's a false sense of security. I appreciate that because we know World Cup is coming soon and Belgium is, you don't have a bad group. Belgium, Canada, Morocco, and Croatia. So that's, that's not too bad, but yes, I have to say, Welsh, kicking out a Ukraine over the weekend, you know, if you're Welsh you're happy and if you're anyone else it's much easier to hate the Welsh. Right?

Lieven (2m 25s):

I think, I think the Russians were happy too.

Chad (2m 28s):

I'm sure they were yes from a propaganda standpoint and a marketing standpoint. No shit. Cause everybody would have been what would have definitely had their own home team, but the Ukrainian team would have been number two. My shout out goes to, this is going to surprise you German unions. Last week, we talked about Elon Musk, who in a leaked email to employees, demanded workers get back to the office for a minimum of 40 hours a week. Well, that didn't play well in Germany with the Bridgette Deetseh or regional IG metal leader in a statement quote "in Germany and employer cannot dictate the rules just as he likes and a worker can rely on the strength and power of her or his union.

Chad (3m 14s):

If she or he does not want to accept the demands of the company," end quote. Recognizing the German constitutional protections for labor organizing. Sounds like Elon's bid to become world leader isn't going that well so far Lieven.

Lieven (3m 31s):

Still in Elon we trust but in this case, he probably made a stupid mistake. Asking people to come at least 40 hours to the office again, the at least was the wrong chosen word I think. In Europe we have a 38 hours working week so making that at least 40 is kind of pushing it with the unions.

Chad (3m 51s):

I think it's interesting. Just from the standpoint of, once again, we keep talking about how many of these organizations are actually just saying what they're thinking, others like Google, they're trying to boil the frog and try to slowly pull their employees back and then mandate them back into the office. We see that happening slowly where Elon's like, he's just saying what's on his mind. Hey, get your ass back in the office. I don't care. This is about control. It's not about reason.

Lieven (4m 18s):

No, probably not. And his excuse saying, I used to sleep in the office to give people confidence that this is one of the reasons we didn't go broke back in the days. He's maybe right. But even he is the boss and you can't expect the same enthusiasm from your own workers.

Chad (4m 33s):

Yeah. Well that's the funny part is when a leader says I slept here overnight. Well, yeah, you actually get a hell of a lot more money than I do too. So good for you right?

Lieven (4m 46s):


Chad (4m 46s):

Ah shit. So my last shout out, shout out to all of the attendees who are making the trek to conferences all over the world. First and foremost, the E recruitment Congress, which you know, was a huge hit in Belgium. And then the masses flooded Vegas for our second show of the year at Unleash. The FOMO is real kids. So do not repeat, do not miss RecFest, the biggest open air TA event in the world coming to you on July 7th at Knebworth Park in England. We Joel and I are emceeing the disrupt stage, which is all about technology. And wait a minute. Are you going to be there Lieven?

Lieven (5m 27s):

I was just thinking I'm actually Lieven for Scotland on the 8th, so maybe I can combine it, but I'm, I'm going on a trip to Scotland with my family. So I don't think there'll be too interested about joining RecFest, but I'll give it a go. I'll try.

Chad (5m 42s):

Okay. Well, when you do go to, click on events in the upper right-hand corner, get your tickets, bring the kids probably before noon, because things get a little crazy after the bars open at noon, but it is a blast. Again, beat the FOMO, get out there, enjoy it. Can't wait to see you there. You ready for some topics?

Lieven (6m 7s):


Chad (6m 8s):

Topics, baby. Oh my God dude. So you've had one hell of a week. Are you feeling lighter with the Bain Capital news off your back finally?

Lieven (6m 16s):

Yeah, definitely. It has been a hell of a few months, I guess. Not just a week, but now it's in the open and everything is okay. The deal is true. So we're happy and I hope Bain is too. I know they are.

Chad (6m 27s):

Okay. So we're missing Joel this week. So what I did for, for you and the listeners is I have a clip of him actually reading through the Bain Capital news from our show last week, entitled Bain Capital house party. Here we go.

Joel (6m 44s):

All right, Chad. Well, once again, everything, this podcast touches turns to gold. We should change our name to the Midas touch show. Anyway, our good friends at House of HR in Belgium announced that private investment firm, Bain Capital, maybe you've heard of them? Has entered into a share purchasing agreement for the acquisition of a 55% stake in the company. Financial details were not disclosed, but trust me, when we say it was a big number of kids. House of HR CEO, Rika Coppens said, quote, "with Bain Capital's investment in House of HR, we start a new chapter in our incredible story. We intend to continue our growth path based on strong organic growth combined with targeted and specialized M and A in existing markets.

Joel (7m 27s):

For the full year 2021 House of HR reported revenue of 2.2 billion euros, an increase of 18.8% compared to 2020. Chad, this is clearly a house made out of bricks. Your thoughts?

Chad (7m 41s):

We're going to need a bigger boat and well, you know, Bain has a superyacht so why the fuck not? Okay again for listeners, if you haven't checked out last week's Bain Capital house party episode, I encourage you to do so. Lieven, I know you heard it. So what did you think of Joel and my analysis?

Lieven (8m 0s):

I like you thinking that everything, this podcast touches turns to gold and I'm sure this is the reason why Bain invested in us. I must say I'm happy it's Bain, I mean, we've been through the whole process. I think it's three years ago now. And we've we saw some major companies. Bain was one of them. We saw some others, you know, the big, big investment funds like Bain. A few of those three years ago, they made an offer. But our current shareholder, Naxicap Partners., they could get more out of it and there were rights and they didn't need to sell because this is a pretty good company that gets a 12% EBITDA so they can give themselves some kind of cash out each year.

Lieven (8m 43s):

So it was okay and they could wait. And the reason why they didn't offer three years ago enough and the eyes of Bain Capital was because they thought, what if there comes a downturn? How well how's the House of HR react to a sudden, let's say a declining of the economy. We got COVID and nobody expected COVID, but during COVID we succeeded in even growing. We not one of our companies lost money in our country. How do you say the English in the country? They even grew so even though their margins grew, so that was the best proof of as being sustainable and being very adaptive, being able to adapt to a fast changing situation and COVID was the best proof.

Lieven (9m 28s):

So now Bain was convinced we were able to stand in the biggest storm. And I think this is the reason why now finally, they decided to invest in us and go for the long run.

Chad (9m 38s):

Awesome. That's awesome. So what was the number that was landed on? We saw published 2.5 to 3 billion euros. Can you settle that number for us?

Lieven (9m 48s):

I'm probably not supposed to, but it's a much closer to the three.

Chad (9m 55s):

55%. That's pretty awesome. Also your thoughts on my comments around you come at the king, you best not miss how House of HR, the growth that you guys have seen has been amazing, but at the top, the big dogs saying the Randstads and the Adeccos, they've been struggling, right? They've been making money, don't get me wrong, but they've been fighting back and forth. And two of those on the top of the mountain, it's a little bit easier to knock one of them off. Are you coming at the king? Is that what we're seeing with Bain Capital?

Lieven (10m 25s):

Well, today Randstad is the king and we're talking in just revenue around Randstad is the king. Are we coming for the king? Probably not yet. I mean, we have $2.2 billion. They ever bought last time I checked, I think 27 or something. So there still is a really, really, really big gap, but the gap is closing. And if you told me five years ago, it will be bigger than people. I would have laughed, but today it's almost a case or it is a case. So we are growing fast, much faster than the markets. And now with the new capital from Bain will be able to check for new markets to invest in new countries, to grow organically, but also to buy. So I think future is bright.

Chad (11m 5s):

Okay. So that being said, when you're looking at expanding into new countries, any on the hot list?

Lieven (11m 13s):

Yes. Yeah. I can share, maybe not yet. We have to keep something for our next episode. Is that right?

Chad (11m 18s):

Yes. Good call. Good call. So I got to say again, Bain has approximately $160 billion in assets currently under management. When I heard that Bain was the entity that was taking controlling stakes at 55%, I thought, wow, this is fucking big. So congratulations to you, to Rika the team. And it's just great to see House of HR just explode like this.

Lieven (11m 50s):

Hey, we're happy too

Chad (11m 51s):

I think you are.

Lieven (11m 53s):

Yeah. Now I'm definitely, I've talked to Bain and ask him, you have $167 billion is there's a big deal for you or not? and they say that has, because in Europe we only closed three deals like this each year. So we've been working very hard with a very big team on this. And I must say they were extremely professional. I wasn't directly involved in the whole process. I mean, it was mostly finance now because they already knew us. I met him two years ago and I have some, even during this process, but I mean, they asked so many questions to about ICT, about legal. And I am going to quote them three years ago they said, "we're going to crunch your numbers until they confess." So finally our number or numbers confessed, and they probably told the right stuff.

Chad (12m 39s):

That is amazing. Again, a House of HR Bain Capital at the altar that's pretty amazing. We will be back. And we're going to talk a little bit about the revival of Florence Nightingale. Right back after the break.

sfx (12m 54s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.

Chad (12m 59s):

Okay. Lieven. So the cash just keeps on coming. The following report coming from, a London-based marketplace that connects vacant care home shifts to local nurses and carers looking for extra work. Florence has raised $35 million in series B. The funding will be used to further expand the product offering to include services beyond elderly care. Since 2017, Florence has raised close to 50 million looking to make the lives of nurses, not only more manageable, but also more profitable. Florence cuts out the agency middleman and gives those healthcare workers direct access to open shifts.

Chad (13m 46s):

Healthcare has been hot for years now, Lieven like decades. What's your thoughts on Florence getting into just the UK space.

Lieven (13m 52s):

First of all, I always start with the name. You know, why I think names are important and Florence just as a great name, I already spoiled it. And Florence Nightingale. She used to be a, she was a founder of modern nursing. She used to be active in the Crimean war in 1853 it was everyone knows this, not sure about America, but in Europe, we all know it was from 1853 to 1856, and Russia lost to an Alliance of France, UK, Ottoman empire, blah, blah, blah. So Florence Nightingale used to be a very, very famous nurse. And now they've chosen this name. So it's a good name. First point, I liked the name. And then of course you can't go wrong with nurses, feel safe at night, sleep with nurse they say, so nurses, nurses are a good thing.

Lieven (14m 41s):

But we have been struggling to find good companies. And for example, the segment of nursing and nurses, and we have TMI in the Netherlands, we have Avanti in Germany and they are doing really well, but it's hard to find a company which is for sale.

Chad (14m 58s):


Lieven (14m 58s):

And doing a good thing because there are not enough nurses and it's very hard to get them onboard and to put them at your clients. So

Chad (15m 6s):

Are you seeing this because of the population boom, cause here in the US the boomer generation is huge and they're retiring. And obviously, you know, healthcare has been, I don't want to say an issue, but it is becoming more of an issue because we need more healthcare workers. Are you seeing the same thing in Europe that we're seeing here?

Lieven (15m 29s):

Definitely. And also our eyes opened during COVID. I mean, we just didn't have enough healthcare professionals and there has always been a problem, but suddenly it was acute to us. It was a massive problem. So now people are aware of it. And I think today having a platform to match nurses and opportunities can be a huge success. As long as you can convince the nurses to use it

Chad (15m 53s):

Yeah, yeah.

Lieven (15m 54s):

Because they don't have big difficulties and looking for a job. So that will be our biggest issue to convince the nurses and to have enough opportunities for them. Because I know many hospitals, my wife is a doctor, and it's even more, how do you say, they aren't the biggest innovators concerning HR. I mean, it's a very conservative business and human resources is conservative already, but human resources within the nursing, or, but in the hospital, health care it's even worse. So those people are probably not the most open to using new systems.

Chad (16m 32s):


Lieven (16m 33s):

But if you offered them something which works, they will use it.

Chad (16m 37s):

What about nurses or healthcare workers working across European borders? Is it, do they have that kind of mobility or do they not? Because here in the states, in some cases you have to have a certification state by state. Is that the same thing country by country in the EU or just Europe as a whole?

Lieven (16m 56s):

No. Ah, that's for once it's I think better in Europe then, I mean, state-by-state that surprises me Europe. It's so great. The moment you have your, how do you say to your

Chad (17m 7s):


Lieven (17m 8s):

Or certification to work as a nurse. Within Europe it's not a problem. And also many companies tried, it's probably the wrong word, but importing nurses from outside of Europe, like the Philippines and the north of Africa. But as far as I know, it's never succeeded. It's why, because there was a language problem and you can give those people a really good course with a one year course. They just won't be able to speak to the patients as they should.

Chad (17m 35s):


Lieven (17m 35s):

That's a problem. And that's still is a problem in Europe. Even within Europe, there are so many languages.

Chad (17m 42s):


Lieven (17m 42s):

Yeah. Everyone speaks English. Yes. But the old people, maybe they don't.

Chad (17m 45s):

A friend of ours in Portugal. She's a healthcare worker. She actually worked in Brussels for, I think it was three years and she did speak a Flemish and also Dutch, probably not as well, obviously is people in Belgium. But she did say that, you know, it was something that, you know, you had to focus on very heavily and it was hard. So yeah, that was a huge issue for her. And she's back in Portugal now because you know, it's a lot easier for her to find and do work.

Lieven (18m 17s):

I can imagine. And we have the same experience with different jobs. We have people working from birth to goal in all kinds of industries, all over Europe, but now they're getting back to Portugal because the economy is growing also, there and people want to go home.

Chad (18m 31s):


Lieven (18m 31s):

And nurses are different thing. And did you know, by the way that I'm not sure if it's the same thing in the US but in Europe, within all job categories,

Chad (18m 46s):

Categories. Yeah.

Lieven (18m 46s):

Categories, right. Nurses are the most active on social media.

Chad (18m 51s):


Lieven (18m 51s):

From all of the categories nurses are the most active and the less are the least active are, who do you think are the least active?

Chad (19m 2s):

Probably the physicians, the doctors.

Lieven (19m 3s):

Not even the legal profiles. Oh,

Chad (19m 4s):


Lieven (19m 5s):

Yeah. Because they probably don't trust anyone. So they stay away from it. And I guess they're right. Yeah. But the nurses are very active. So maybe a digital profile using social to connect on a social referral. We have nurses that could work, I believe in it.

Chad (19m 20s):

Yeah. I think, I think tech provides quicker access to open positions and quicker access to labor as well. Right. So it goes both ways. So not to mention scale. So that's something that it's hard to do with humans and that's what we talk a lot about on this show. So if they can get some type of adoption from healthcare workers that can see that within different healthcare systems, they can pick up different shifts then there's, I think there's an opportunity there. We're seeing the same here in the U S with different platforms that are opening up as well. So it's pretty encouraging because if we can better utilize the workforce that we have now, then we know, I think in better, better areas where to grow.

Chad (20m 6s):

And it sounds like Europe is in pretty much the same situation we are.

Lieven (20m 9s):

Yeah. Of course. And people are getting older, so we need more nurses. We need people for the elderly institutions.

Chad (20m 17s):


Lieven (20m 18s):

Oh yeah, definitely. You were talking about the shifts. And I looked at the trust pilots from foreign staff. They use trust pilots to give people the opportunity to give their experience with the platform. And overall, they have a very good score, but I was surprised I'm going to quote one, one of the users of Florence said, "please don't waste your time registering. It's a great company overall, but they've over employed people, especially in Glasgow, no shifts at all. I wish they controlled that you'll go months and months without shifts." And I was surprised because I thought their biggest problem would be getting to the nurses. It's the companies would be all over them.

Lieven (20m 60s):

Apparently they're not. And that's probably because it's so conservative.

Chad (21m 2s):

Maybe, but this also might be that supply versus demand kind of curve that you have to work on now that they have the supply that can go back to the companies and they can start selling that demand. Cause I mean, really all of this is a new age type of staffing, right? It's happening via transaction versus kind of quote unquote "placement", let's say. So it could just be that they're ginning up a bunch of talent to be able to go back and then start getting adoption from the healthcare facility.

Lieven (21m 31s):

I agree with two counts, let your talent wait. And it's only one guy, of course, but he says, you'll go months and months without shifts. People won't wait months and months. I just remember I was talking to someone from TMI, the company who is also in secondment of nurses, of nurses and in the Netherlands. And they had a great idea and it works really well. You know, the Netherlands used to have colonies like, and still have them, but they are not colonies anymore. Like Aruba and some other islands and the Caribbean in the Caribbean. And they work with those islands and they have offices there as well. And they offer nurses in the Netherlands, the opportunity to go work for six months or longer, if you want to, let's say some islands in the Caribbean.

Lieven (22m 16s):

And this of course for young people is great. You finished high school or college, what's it called? And you can go, do get some experience and get a nice suntan. And that's the reason why they got so many nurses.

Chad (22m 31s):


Lieven (22m 32s):

And then they also put people in, in Switzerland where there just gets paid ridiculously well.

Chad (22m 38s):


Lieven (22m 38s):

For an intensive care unit nurse, they gets about 9,000 euros a month, which is enormous.

Chad (22m 44s):

Yeah. Well, Switzerland is also pretty damned expensive.

Lieven (22m 47s):

Indeed yea, but we have Avanti in Germany and they put German nurses in Switzerland and they don't have the language problem. It's the same language. Yeah. And they have the big money advantage even from Germany to Switzerland.

Chad (23m 1s):

We'll continue to take a look at the space, not to mention Florence because this is going to just explode. But at this point we're going to move on to job boards. That's right. Kids. I said, job boards, people are sick and tired of talking about job boards. But

sfx (23m 18s):

Hell Yeah!

Chad (23m 19s):

According to our friends, over at the intelligence group and their 2022 survey, Indeed is the European market leader as most named and preferred job board. Quote "Indeed has a strong position in Western Europe, particularly in the UK, Ireland, the Netherlands, France, Sweden and Germany" said Geert Jan Waasdorp founder and CEO of the Intelligence Group. But you got to remember that Europe has a bunch of countries in it. So the argument made by an article on ToTalent could therefore be made that Indeed is the Europe's market leader, but the leading job board company pays very little or even no role in various Eastern European countries some Scandinavian countries, as well as Spain and Portugal.

Chad (24m 9s):

These countries where local job boards have heavily dominated. And so did anything surprise you in this survey?

Lieven (24m 14s):

Oh, surprise me not really, but as you say, Europe has a bunch of countries in it and in the countries where there is a big local brands than Indeed will never be number one.

Chad (24m 25s):


Lieven (24m 25s):

LinkedIn is something else. LinkedIn offers much more, but Indeed, basically is a scraper and they scraped and they're very good in scraping, but scraping isn't rocket science and they are very, very good and search engine marketing.

Chad (24m 38s):


Lieven (24m 38s):

And that's also not rocket science, but it's more complicated. So Indeed it's really good, but I live thanks to Google everyone else. Indeed is in my opinion, pretty easy to copy. And if you have a local approach with a local knowledge of the markets, you can, in my opinion, pretty easily, you win from Indeed, it's as a gonner. And I mean, they, they need Google and Google doesn't like him. So their situation is just not comfortable. LinkedIn is something else. They have their own sustainable database, self-sustainable database. They have over 800 million of CVS, which are up to date. You can't copy that from day to day. I mean, people need to make an effort. You need to make a new profile.

Lieven (25m 19s):

You need to put your information on it. Why would you?

Chad (25m 26s):


Lieven (25m 27s):

So I think LinkedIn, yes, Indeed their reason for existing as it's lowering.

Chad (25m 32s):

Well, it's interesting though, because Indeed has still, they're still getting lifts from Google. I mean, decades in and whether Google likes them or not search engine optimization is about trust and history. Right. And Indeed has that in Google likes something about Indeed.

Lieven (25m 49s):

Money I'd guess.

Chad (25m 50s):

Yea, and trust and history. Yeah. But I was surprised you talked about LinkedIn. I was surprised about the piece of intel where LinkedIn. Yes. LinkedIn is increasingly becoming a sourcing channel and talent are leaving LinkedIn because they're sick and tired of getting spammed by recruiters.

Lieven (26m 11s):

That's right.

Chad (26m 11s):

The development in the UK may indicate that LinkedIn is past its peak. So, you know, you were just talking about how they have that great database, but the problem is, if it's being spammed, if it's being used in and what job seekers think nefarious ways that could also topple LinkedIn, right?

Lieven (26m 28s):

Yeah. But spanning is only for like, I think 10% of the profiles. I mean, if you're an it or net program programmer, if you are an engineer you'll get spammed, but 80% of the profiles, aren't one of those. And those people probably are happy when they get a nice job offer. So I guess, yes, for the most needed profiles, they might try to ignore you and they will leave LinkedIn. They probably won't leave it, they just want to check their mails constantly. But for the others, I think it will still work.

Chad (26m 58s):

So I got to say great survey and data from the Intelligence Group and sponsor the podcast and the five top job boards. This is funny. Number one, we talked about Indeed. Number two, LinkedIn. Number three, InfoJobs. We'll talk about that one in a minute. Number four, this just blows my mind Monster. Number five StepStone. So first off many Americans that are listening to this podcast have no clue what InfoJobs is. Are they in multiple countries? Are they all over Europe or are they just really heavily good in certain countries?

Lieven (27m 39s):

They call themself the leading career site in Europe as so many career sites do. I hardly knew the myself. They're, I guess Spain based if I'm right and they are active in a few countries, but, and our main countries, they are not active. In the countries where we're at. So I've never worked with them. I hardly know them. I know their name and I know a bit about them, but it's not really. So this is one of those local branches who tried to conquer Europe, but it's difficult just because it's a bunch of countries and Indeed succeeded because they had something new. When, when Indeed started the scraping thing was new. So they actually conquered the world.

Lieven (28m 19s):

But if you want to do it now, again, it will be difficult.

Chad (28m 24s):

Monster is still in the top five. How in the hell is this even happening?

Lieven (28m 30s):

It's fake news. I mean, it's impossible. But in Belgium the last time I saw the real numbers, they only had 6,000 users a month. I mean, that's ridiculous to give you a, something to compare with because Belgium is a small country we only have like 10 million people. But the Flemish department of labor, they have a job boards and they have over 100,000 users each day. So Monster is nearly dead in Belgium and it's a bit better off in the Netherlands. But I think they are retreating to the United States.

Chad (29m 6s):