It's a Job Seeker Nation!
There are a lot of surveys out there. But very few of them have a track record going back 13 years. That's why we invited Employ, the new parent company of Jobvite, JazzHR, and NXTThing RPO and their CMO Allie Kelly to the show to dive into their 2022 Job Seeker Nation Report. The three big themes discussed:
The Great Resignation, Automation, and Remote Work (and yes, ghosting came up too).
You've got questions? Here are your answers.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Yeah, what's up everybody. It's your favorite guilty pleasure? The Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Cheeseman flying solo today is my co-host Chad Sowash builds his European real estate empire, but I'm not worried. I'm joined graciously joined by Allie Kelly, Chief Marketing Officer of Employee, Inc. If you don't know Employee Inc, don't worry. You may know them as the parent company of companies like Jobvite, Jazz HR, Next Thing, IRPO, companies that you're familiar with Employee's, a fairly new thing, which we'll get into, but Allie, welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast sans the Chad.
Allie (1m 8s):
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and I love that you feel graced by my presence.
Joel (1m 14s):
You're generous with your time and I understand you are you're in state, you're in Indiana today. So I feel like you're, you're right in my backyard talking over a beer. But give the listeners a little bit about you. I know that we've chatted on the podcast before, but you know, people miss episodes. So give us a little Twitter bio on you and then we'll get into sort of Employee and what's going on and a survey that you guys have recently done that has some interesting information, but tell us about Allie Kelly.
Allie (1m 46s):
Yes. So I've actually, I'm not by career, like in the TA or recruiting world. This is just sort of my,
Joel (1m 54s):
You are now Allie, because once you're in, you don't leave. It's like the mob. Yeah.
Allie (1m 59s):
Like six and half years, I think Pete and I, but yeah, I mean, it was all new to me, the space. So it's really, it's been super fun to learn. And, it is a wild space relative to some of the industries that I've been in. So it's been really fun. And as CMO of Employee, I oversee marketing and go to market and all that really fun stuff of business, like the really fun stuff for business, for our brands. So the Employee brand, Jazz HR Jobvite, Next Thing and any more that may join the family.
Joel (2m 35s):
So you hail from Boston and I have to know, are you a Celtics fan?
Allie (2m 39s):
So I am a Cs fan. However, I share my love between the Cs and Jazz, because I lived in Utah for quite a while, and frankly like you can get great seats to see the Utah Jazz play really inexpensively. So, and there's never a beer line, which is even better. So like, you know, I have a really great appreciation for the Utah Jazz.
Joel (3m 5s):
Well, I bring it up because of the sweep of the nets, I assume you caught wind of last night. So that was a big, I thought I'd throw that out as a sports reference. Let's get back to business. I was sharing with you in the green room that the acquisition, the Jobvite, Jazz HR, Next Thing, RPO thing went down about a year ago. Listeners can go back in the archives and hear what we had to say about that. But you mentioned that rebrand to Employ just briefly talk about the rebrand and how that's going and how the companies are sort of integrating, I guess, a state of the company real quick.
Allie (3m 37s):
Yeah. So I mean, it's a really exciting time. It's an exciting company. Right. And so yeah, it's been almost exactly a year and it's funny sometimes I feel like we've been doing this forever and other days it feels all so new and quick, but we want, you know, we've launched the Employer brand, which I think has been, you know, I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me it sucks, frankly, like we to come up with a better name than Employ, but
Joel (4m 5s):
It's a little vanilla, but I think it makes sense. Yeah.
Allie (4m 9s):
I mean, it feels like it's working, but like I was really hoping for like a little bit more debate around it, but it just seems like it's perceptions going really well. And all of our analysis tells us everything's in the right direction and numbers don't lie as I like to say, revenue cures, all ills. So it has absolutely been going in the right direction and we are seeing it really exciting numbers. We actually just had our board meeting last week and so growth in all areas of the business, but part of the most exciting thing and I think you guys have touched on this before is really the nature of being able to maintain separate brands for the segments, but also really drive revenue through the brands.
Allie (4m 52s):
Right? So Jesse Jar is a wonderful lead engine for Jobvite and you know, even with Next Thing, we're finding a lot of cross sales are coming in from both of the other brands there. And it's all just, it's really working out way better than I think, of course we planned it to work out. Right. But?
Joel (5m 13s):
Allie (5m 13s):
I don't know if you always expect it to go as planned. So yeah, we're really thrilled with the way things are going, as everyone has been challenged with hiring over the past, you know, six months, we were no different, but we're pretty well ramped up at this time and filling out the team and doing great things.
Joel (5m 33s):
It sounds like a round peg in a round hole, which maybe makes too much sense, which is probably the problem with a lot of these things. But let's get into why you're actually here. I don't have a drum roll, but if I did, I would play the drum roll and I would announce the 2022 Job Seeker Nation Report is what you guys have released. So tell us about the report. How long have you been doing it? How many people are you surveying? What kind of demographics are you targeting? Just give us, let's set the plate here before we get into the numbers.
Allie (6m 7s):
We have been, this is our 13th year doing this if you can believe it, which is pretty wild. So 13th annual report, and this report, we used a little bit more than 1500 individuals. And some, you know, I think some really interesting findings this year, probably more so than in years past, just because of the shifting dynamics and
Joel (6m 32s):
Lot going on
Allie (6m 34s):
In the world. Really?
Joel (6m 35s):
Yeah. So are these all US-based, is this sort of a global audience, any specific skill sets that you were looking to target?
Allie (6m 44s):
So North America, North America, we really try and get a range of jobs and make sure that it's sort of statistically relevant to the overall market and what that looks like. Adults right, so 18 and up is really what it is and again, we do try and make it statistically relevant to the demographics of the labor market right now. So that's pretty accurate.
Joel (7m 4s):
And were these all people in Jobvite/Next Thing, Jazz HR?
Allie (7m 10s):
Joel (7m 10s):
Okay. So talk about that.
Allie (7m 11s):
So yeah, we do work with the third parties on the analytics there. They're fantastic. And they do a really good job actually of separating any sort of bias that we, you know, when we sort of put these things together and we're brainstorming like how we want to think about it this year and what we want to understand. They're really great at sort of extracting the bias that we come to those meetings with and the way that we're thinking about it. So, you know, I think that ultimately does provide some really fun, really interesting statistics that we didn't necessarily expect or think about. It is a point in time so it's not like we're trending this data and looking at it, you know, in the context of what's happening in the market this week.
Allie (7m 56s):
But, you know, I think on the whole, it certainly resonates in the market and it is helpful data.
Joel (8m 2s):
So there are about three or four themes that I want to just sort of talk about that you guys surveyed, obviously that goes into much greater detail on other things, but I want to touch first on the Great Resignation, which is, you know, every night in the news. It's a conversation, it's a topic. 60 Minutes, everyone's covering this. So the Great Resignation, what did you guys find out in regards to, you know, why are people leaving? Are they leaving? Why are they quitting? What's going on with the Great Resignation from what you found out in the survey?
Allie (8m 35s):
Yeah. So I think there's a few different things going on. More than anything else, right there are some industries where people are actively seeking new jobs, right? So frontline workers, right? There's a mass exodus out of the medical fields, out of a lot of those frontline jobs in the con, you know, and that makes sense in the context of COVID now, I think regardless of the reasoning behind it, that has trickled through and had some larger implications downstream in other industries. And when you look at sort of where that leaves us, it is absolutely something that people, like their jobs in general, they're re-evaluating regardless of industry.
Allie (9m 21s):
So compensation is always going to be a big driver, right. And, further growth opportunities, but think more than anything and I think the data shows this, not to a high degree, but it does show that I think people are reassessing what's important to them in life and how they think about their work-life balance and what matters to them. And I think it varies not just by industry, but like person to person. So I think people have, you know, it's sort of just provided a unique time in our world to like reassess with what matters to us in life and yeah, working isn't always it.
Joel (10m 0s):
Some of the numbers you highlighted, one of them did not surprise me, which was 45% are actively looking for a new job. My guess is that number's probably pretty consistent throughout the 13 years that you've been doing this. Couple numbers that were highlighted for me, or I wouldn't say shocked, but got my attention was, you know, 32% would quit a job without having another one lined up.
Allie (10m 22s):
Joel (10m 23s):
And 30% have left a job within the first 90 days of starting. Now, my initial thought was, that's a gig economy thing. That's a, I have options that I didn't have before I can go drive an Uber. I can deliver food. I can, you know, I can get on OnlyFans. You know, if you have the certain skill sets like, well, I could, but I'm not sure I could retire on that. Do you get the same sense that the gig economy is driving? That is it, I don't know. It was a government fund. Like when you saw that number, were you surprised and what would you attribute that to 32% would quit without having anything lined up?
Allie (10m 60s):
Yes. And actually that is, so I went home the first time I read that statistic, I went home to my husband and
Joel (11m 9s):
I'm joining OnlyFans? No.
Allie (11m 10s):
Pretty much. I was like, I can't believe people do this. Like this is wild to me. Right. Cause I would, I don't know. Maybe, maybe it's an age, but I'm like, you know, I'm certainly younger in my mind than I am in reality. But like maybe it's a generational thing. I actually, I think there's a few things going on and there's a difference between the people who would leave without something lined up from their current role versus the 90 day thing. Right. I see them as two different sort of situations. People choosing to leave because without something lined up, I think is what we were talking about before. Right. They've reassessed, what's important to them and what matters. And frankly, they know that there's one point. I mean, they might not know the statistics, but right now I think the fed said there was 1.8 jobs, open jobs for every available worker.
Allie (11m 59s):
Which is crazy, right? So it is clearly a candidate market and they're probably very confident that they can get another role that will meet their needs, whatever they are, whether it's compensation or flexibility or work-life balance or certain types of benefits, like different type of work. Right? Maybe they want something more exciting. So I think that level of confidence is the single biggest takeaway of like, in the entire report, to me, the level of employee confidence or worker confidence is just, it's crazy. It's something that I don't think we've ever seen before. Even in a candidate driven market it's not like this is the first time we've been in a candidate driven market, but we've never been in at this level.
Allie (12m 41s):
And where we're seeing people more willing to negotiate. Right. And that's up by, I think, 18% over the past couple of years, which is, which is a significant jump, right? And so people are willing to negotiate salaries that work previously and not just salaries, but their overall compensation package and how they're working. They're negotiating a lot of other factors. I also think that they don't necessarily feel as invested in companies if they're staying for shorter periods of time and that's a trend that we've been seeing sort of on the upswing with the younger generation, on the whole, the numbers actually really haven't changed over the past 30 years. And I only know that because I didn't think that was the case and tried to prove somebody that it wasn't, found out I was wrong.
Allie (13m 27s):
So that, you know, that's also pretty interesting. So like the longevity that people are staying with companies is actually for the past 30 years, pretty minimal change there. With regard to the 90 days, I actually think this is more closely tied to the ghosting situation, in sort of a weird way that then like the 32% that will leave for whatever reason without something lined up. Right. I think if people are starting a job and leaving within 90 days, I think that is a failure of the employer to appropriately onboard and engage that employee.
Allie (14m 10s):
And in the same way, you know, people think of ghosting as I never ever talked to you again, you know, like I texted you, you didn't text me back kind of thing.
Joel (14m 21s):
Allie (14m 21s):
Whereas I think there's a lot of forms or like levels of ghosting where, you know, it's ultimately it's lack of engagement and a lack of communication. And I think that that's what people are looking for in their jobs now. And they want to feel that engagement. Right. And I think we're doing a really poor job onboarding employees in some cases. And it's a massive opportunity for, I think the industry as a whole, to really sort of up-level what we're doing and how we think about it.
Joel (14m 53s):
I guess the good news in the Great Resignation is it's not all bad news. From your survey 62% said that they're satisfied with their jobs, which is a majority, my math isn't great, but I'm pretty sure that's more than 50%. So it's not all horrible news. A lot of people do enjoy their jobs so there are some companies doing it correctly. What's driving the activity in terms of this resignation. However, surprise me a little bit, but maybe not. It's all about the Benjamins apparently talk about money's impact on people staying or leaving at their current jobs.
Allie (15m 31s):
Yes. Well, you know, money talks, I think, as we all know, and in the candidate driven market, I mean the increase in wages is, I mean, it's material and it's in every industry. And I think that people see that. And, you know, and this was all taken prior to the inflation rates that we're seeing now. So that is something to consider when we're looking at this data. Whereas it's, I think it was 7.9% of people, that was a couple of weeks ago or maybe three weeks ago. So it's probably been updated sentence, but you know, inflation is still outpacing wage growth. And, you know, the reality is there is this perception of how much you're making is work.
Allie (16m 16s):
You know, how much it's actually worth in terms of true value of the dollar and what you can get with that. And if someone else is going to pay you more money, it's, you know, especially if it's substantially more money, you know, it's hard. I think it's hard for people not to leave, which, you know, that's why we work, but let's be honest. It's why we all have jobs, right?
Joel (16m 38s):
Sure. So 37% in your surveys said, only 30% believe they are paid fairly by their employer. Now, there may be some corresponding evidence that the 62% that are satisfied are getting paid well enough. And the ones that aren't are the 37% that aren't being paid fairly. And as you noted inflation numbers at, I think eight and a half percent last, I heard that number may go up in your next survey because a lot of people with inflation will feel like they're not being paid fairly. One of the things that I noticed in sort of what's driving the resignation numbers was money.
Joel (17m 18s):
I expected the desire to work remotely, to be a lot higher than it was. So based on your numbers, only 16% prefer remote work. Did that surprise you? Was it a thing of timing with the report? What's your takeaway on sort of the low number for remote work in terms of what people wanted?
Allie (17m 42s):
Yeah. So the reality of this is what this question asked was the top reason for leaving in the past 12 months. So it doesn't necessarily mean that people don't necessarily want that, it's just sort of relative preference, right? And, and what's driving that turnover more than anything. So I think it, you know, and in a lot of cases, I think when people talk about why they left a job in the past 12 months, it's still a pretty new period of time. So unless it's something that is incredibly measurable, like compensation, it's a little bit fungible and a little subjective.
Allie (18m 28s):
So when you talk about compensation, you can say, I left because I got offered another role that is going to pay me 30% more than what I'm currently making. That is a much easier thing to talk about then the company had poor culture, right and how people talk about that and how they interpret it. I think it makes it kind of difficult to stack rank, but flexibility, I think is and work from home. So one of the other, I think the second largest reason was the need for change, in terms of turnover, past compensation. And if you look at a need for change, well, is it because you don't have the flexibility to work remotely, right?
Allie (19m 11s):
Like there's a little bit of subjectivity here. And I think what it really comes down to is there's just, I mean, if you look at the percentages, if compensation is counting for close to 40%, and then you're looking at the other reasons there, I mean, the span is 18 to 26%. That's not a huge range, you know, with the bottom three being within four points of each other. So it's, you know, I think it's a little all over the place.
Joel (19m 41s):
So a little bit of a sidebar and you get access to a lot of job posting data and job descriptions. I know LinkedIn recently said, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the basic gist was, if you have remote work or the, the opportunity to work remotely in your job posting your number of responses goes up significantly versus if you don't have remote work as an option in your job description. As a side note, are you seeing anything in terms of jobs that are on your database? Is there an increase in remote jobs? Are more people posting that as an option or are not seeing anything thus far?
Allie (20m 19s):
So there are absolutely, there's an increase in remote jobs. That being said, you know, we do need to think of the data that LinkedIn provided versus the data that we're looking at here in the context of the entire labor force. So, I think, pre pandemic or at the height of the pandemic, the amount of people that were working remotely was only, it only ever peaked at like 35ish percent. I'd have to go back and validate that data, but which is way lower than I would have expected. If you'd asked me at the time would have been like, oh no, like 80% of people, but that's not true, right? Like a lot of jobs just can't be done remotely.
Allie (20m 60s):
And LinkedIn is a professional platform, right? You don't have many, you know, sort of, not necessarily front line, but you don't have a lot of industries that are, there are certain types of industries that aren't even really on LinkedIn from a worker perspective?
Joel (21m 17s):
That's for sure.
Allie (21m 18s):
I mean, think about the Amazon warehouses, right. We don't, I don't think those workers that are working in the warehouse could be logging on to LinkedIn in the middle of their shifts. And you know/
Joel (21m 28s):
Of course when Bezos has his way and it's all robots, I guess it won't matter at that point.
Allie (21m 34s):
Joel (21m 34s):
Yeah. So the last point I want to sort of talk about in terms of the survey, which is another, a big theme that we've talked about on the show for, well over a year is automation. Specifically in the conversational category or process. So we talk a lot about chat bots if you call them chat bots or conversational AI, you guys have some really interesting numbers around automation and technology in the recruiting process. You mentioned ghosting, which I think is impacted a lot by the automated hiring process so talk about what you guys found in the automation category.
Allie (22m 9s):
Yeah. You know, I actually would have expected in general to see a lot more, you know, what, one of the things that we saw, and I think that this is specifically related to automation is a lot of frustration in the candidate experience. And so
Joel (22m 28s):
Allie (22m 29s):
Right now, who would've thought? And it's, so for example, right, there are things that we know people are gonna find that have improved the experience like, oh, you can schedule interviews a little bit easier than you could a few years ago, or, you know, there's a higher, a quicker hiring path, right. Or there's cover letters are kind of becoming a thing of the past at this point for some, for many, many jobs.
Joel (22m 55s):
Allie (22m 55s):
Right. And those are things that are, I think, candidates like, and they're excited about it. On the flip side, I think there's a lot of frustration, not just from, you know, the sort of application process itself, but like the entire engagement. So ghosting or not following up, having a significant impact, people sort of focusing on or not knowing the best channel to engage. So I think there's a little bit of channel conflict that happens in the process, right? So they're not, you know, is it if they apply here, but then they need to provide their social credential or know their social media profiles and if they're texting.
Allie (23m 37s):
So I think that there's a little bit, we haven't, as an industry quite figured out the best way to manage the channels simultaneously for an individual candidate experience and a very personalized experience. And I think that that leaves our candidates feeling like they don't necessarily know what's going on. It feels like a lack of transparency. And, you know, everyone wants to know where they stand. It's not like they're sitting there saying like, oh no, I'm totally okay with waiting two weeks to know if I got the job or not. They're not. And there's new technologies all the time that are coming out to aid with this.
Allie (24m 20s):
And while in our industry, because we're in HR tech, we're like, oh, this is great and we think it's awesome because we like to be patting ourselves on the back. But the reality is that's not always great from a candidate experience perspective. So, you know, if you've got 22% of workers interacting with your chat bots in the recruiting process, but barely half, or like barely over half, I think it's 63% thought it was a positive experience. I mean, you could say like, okay, so it's more than half. It is the majority technically. But like if my child came home with 63% on their test, it would be a very angry mother.
Allie (25m 3s):
And like, I don't think it's a great grade. I think.
Joel (25m 7s):
If their previous grade was 22%, you might, you might have a party though. Right? So to me, it's sort of relative that yeah, 63% is not a huge number, but if the prior number was in the twenties, you're making a significant amount of progress. You don't necessarily see it that way. You see it as 63%,
Allie (25m 27s):
It's 22% interacted with it so just period and then up, so then taking those 22%, what percent thought it was positive? And it's 63% that that's a D, let's be clear, it's a D minus.
Joel (25m 40s):
But we're in an F minus industry. So we're making progress people. I was going to say that was going to be a big win in terms of the survey, but that's an interesting perspective that you have, I also think, and you'll obviously disagree with this. I think text messaging more or less was a win in terms of your survey with 56% preferring a text message for interviewing and scheduling interviews versus email or a phone call. So do you consider text messaging a big F as well at 56%?
Allie (26m 11s):
So I don't, because I think it's an efficiency thing, right? Like text messaging there. I think there's more familiarity with how people use and communicate via text. Right? We all sort of have an understanding of what things mean and when it's appropriate to respond versus not. Chatbots are a little, I think we're still figuring out how to use them in the right way. So for example, like if you go online as a candidate to look at a company and you go to their recruiting page or their careers page, and you see that they have a chat bot and you're interested, but it's 2:00 AM, right.
Allie (26m 53s):
Are you going to be angry because that chatbots not giving you a very personalized experience?
Joel (27m 1s):
Allie (27m 1s):
You might be, but like, if you, if I text you about a job at 2:00 AM, do I expect you to reply? Probably not.
Joel (27m 12s):
Allie (27m 13s):
There's, you know, different expectations with texting, I think from a candidate perspective, then there is with chat bots in part, because texting is texting, right chatbots, there's a wide range of technology and what goes into how we make those work. So what that ends up looking like on the candidate experience side, I think is a wide variation and it really ranges so.
Joel (27m 38s):
Interesting sort of curve ball and that is that a lot of chatbots are meant to look like SMS. So in terms of a user's perspective, are they talking, are they chatting with a robot, but thinking that it's a human on the other end of that, texting them? And I think that is something that will have to be worked out in terms of these numbers and what people think. Cause cause your numbers were 22% said they have interacted with a chat bot and 42% have received a text message from a recruiter. That 22% may be higher because they may not even know they're talking to a chat bot, they may think it's just SMS with a recruiter. But I think this is going to be one of the more interesting stories when you do your survey in the coming quarters or years, is SMS versus chat bot and does that line blur?
Joel (28m 32s):
I do still think that those are our two relative winners in your survey, chat bots, as well as SMS. One loser that I would highlight from your data is job boards.
Allie (28m 43s):
It's not coming out of my mouth. It's coming out of yours.
Joel (28m 49s):
Job board usage is 16% lower since 2020. What are your thoughts on that? Was that a surprise to you? What's causing that? Why are job boards down?
Allie (29m 2s):
Not at all surprised. Why are they down? I think this goes back to channels, right? There's so many channels. And again, so in the same way that we're like, you know what I said before about sort of how we manage channels with the candidate experience is really important and SMS versus, you know, chat bots. And we're how that blurs in some areas, but not always like that's a perfect example we really need to figure that out. Right. I think in a similar fashion job boards and the proliferation of channels around, or sort of that produced a, I dunno like a candidate experience beyond just like where you can find it, you know, in terms of how you can find a job is changing.
Joel (29m 44s):
Allie (29m 44s):
And there's so many more channels all the time, right? So like, if you look at Instagram, for example, if you asked me four years ago, do I think Instagram is going to be a great place to find candidates? I would have said no. However, turns out that's actually a really great driver of not just candidates, but engagement and conversion with candidates. So they're new all the time.
Joel (30m 15s):
So it's Snapchat tech talk and Instagram, obviously that's messing things up for the job boards. All right, I'm going to let you close on this. Give me one prediction for next year's report that you expect to see that might surprise people.
Allie (30m 33s):
I would say the, I don't know if this will surprise people? But I do believe that there will be continued adoption of AI technologies. I think we'll see a reduction in the use of candidate facing AI.
Joel (30m 51s):
Is that for legal reasons or UX reasons or effectiveness reasons or all the above.
Allie (30m 58s):
I think all of the above, but ultimately, you know, I think that, and this is my personal opinion. I think companies are better positioned for long-term success when they value the candidate experience and security and privacy of the candidate. And to me, that means owning that beyond just saying, you know, oh, well this is just our technology, how our, how our customers use it is up to them. Right? So I think that candidates have greater expectations of that at this point. And I think that hopefully we'll see vendors start to use it more intelligently and thoughtfully.
Allie (31m 41s):
I think it will be successful. I think we're still in the very early stages of figuring that out and really making that technology at its best.
Joel (31m 56s):
Allie Kelly, everybody CMO at Employ Inc. Allie, thanks for your time. All right. If someone out there wants to see the survey, they want to dig into this thing. Where should they go to learn more?
Allie (32m 9s):
Yes, I would say jobvite.com. Jazzhr.com, employment.com or nextthingrpo.com. It's on the homepage of every single one of those sites.
Joel (32m 17s):
Listen to you. You sound like you're in marketing. Allie thanks again. And everyone else, we out.
OUTRO (32m 24s):
Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode.
OUTRO (33m 12s):
And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.