Chad is back from vacay, and it's a good thing because the news was droppin' like bombs this week.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah. He's back. Chad is tan, rested and ready everybody, be very afraid and welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel, "don't wake up Ted Cruz" Cheeseman
And I'm pastor Chad Sowash.
On this week's show Jobbite gets jazzy, ZipRecruiter gets Zippy and JP Morgan gets second chancey. We'll be right back after ransacking Giuliani's brownstone.
You know, Steve, it feels like we keep getting pushed to hire more and better candidates with no more budget. Right? I wish there was a way to get better results from what we're doing. Actually, I heard in episode of Chad and Cheese about this framework from Jobvite. Oh yeah. Evolve. It's a technology agnostic framework to help TA teams get better results from their recruiting efforts. And we don't even have to be a Jobvite by customer to use it. I bet we would get better results if we orchestrated all of our efforts. You mean like a centralized process and all of our channels working together? For sure, whether it's job boards, social, or even texting with candidates. Let's do that. jobvite.com/evolve.
Jobvite (1m 30s):
I'll send you the link. Cool. I'm going to finish watching this episode of Bridgerton.
Joel (1m 36s):
What's the website for your new marital services? Is that Chadmarries.com or something?
Chad (1m 43s):
Yeah. There's more stress going into marrying somebody than prepping for a podcast. Fuck that.
Joel (1m 49s):
So tell the listeners what the hell that was all about.
Chad (1m 52s):
Yes. I went to the Isle of Palms last week and actually married a couple of very dear friends. Went off online, and got a, I guess you could call it just an officiant's license, married them by the beach. It was amazing. We had a blast and I came home, this was amazing to a box of beer, Irish whiskey and gelato. We have the best listeners out there.
Joel (2m 21s):
So much for your diet.
Chad (2m 23s):
Yeah. So, so real quick, I gotta do this. Oh yeah. Starting to drink. I received a kick ass IPA and John beer from Victoria Conley in the Philadelphia area and yes I am so John right now. Thanks Victoria. And, shut up Ed. James and the team over at Righteous Gelato sent me a whole damn box of gelato. And for our listeners, this is literally the best fucking gelato that's out there. I can't get it locally. So everybody's like, you know, Hey, can I come over and get some gelato? And I'm like, no, stay the away from my Gelato.
Joel (3m 1s):
Did they deep freeze that from like Canadian glaciers to get it to you still cold? How did that work?
Chad (3m 6s):
Yeah. Dry ice. Joel. It's called technology.
Joel (3m 11s):
It's still not cheap, man. I bet your marriage license certificate costs less than that shit.
Chad (3m 17s):
I would say. I would say you got, you got the, you got the Red Breast Irish whiskey too, right?
Joel (3m 23s):
Yeah. There's no hate in that. No hate in that. I was from our buddy Oras Oras coolest name ever. Auras. Hi. Hi baby. My name is Oras
Chad (3m 32s):
From jobdescription.ai. That's yeah,
Joel (3m 35s):
Yeah, yeah. I'm not, I'm not hating on the Red Breast Irish whiskey. There was not the 21 or the 15. It was the 12th, but that's okay. I'll take the 12th. It goes down nicely. Well, are you excited about SNL on the Saturday featuring starring Elon Musk?
Chad (3m 53s):
Nothing like paying your way into SNL. I mean, come on.
Joel (3m 56s):
Well, that was the case Bezos would just be the guest every week.
Chad (3m 59s):
Yeah. He's spending all his money on HGH.
Joel (4m 2s):
Does Dogecoin go up after the a SNL episode? About 400? 800%? Something like that?
Chad (4m 9s):
It's been taking a fucking dive. So it better. Shout out to our friends in Indiana.
Joel (4m 13s):
Chad (4m 14s):
Emplify, Fisher's based Indiana Emplify was acquired this week by 15 five for about 50 million buckeroonis. Emplify had raised 33 million. So it's not exactly the home run that the VC's probably imagined, but it still buys a lot of beer, that 15 million. Well, if they would've come on firing squad, they would have quintupled that fucking number. So since you didn't get back to us.
Joel (4m 43s):
Yes, they wouldn't return one email from any of us at this show. Yeah. Things could have, you could have had an extra zero on that 50 Emplify if you'd just come on Chad and Cheese.
Chad (4m 52s):
That's right. Because listeners like Morgan Woods who tweeted the Chad and Cheese is giving me life this morning. She was listening to our fear, loathing and ZipRecruiter podcast. Morgan you're making me tear up. I've been gone too long. Come back to that love. Ian Partington agrees with our reopening and vaccination points. Employees and employers have choices. Right? Appreciate that.
Joel (5m 20s):
Speaking of love, our boy Mason Wong at Lyft loves him some air tags. You got into quite a dialogue with him this week. What the hell was that about?
Chad (5m 29s):
It's funny. It's like Julie uses the tiles, the little tiles so that she doesn't lose her keys. So there's like an app and you just put a tile on your keys or put a tile on something you don't want to lose. And Mason said, Hey, we could put these on candidates when they come in to interview mic. Yeah. Okay.
Joel (5m 50s):
Or put it on my 80 year old father would be a better, better idea. But I don't know. There probably will be made around air tags that do involve some sort of an employment visitor thing, interview thing, I don't know.
Chad (6m 5s):
Check-in. But I don't, I don't know that you need that. I mean, if the person is connected through their mobile phone and they, they log into the app. Why I don't understand what the tags are for other than other security perspective needs, but that's not an, that's not a recruiting thing. That's more of a security thing. So I think it's more security, less recruiting.
Joel (6m 25s):
So you disagree with Mason, is that what you're saying?
Chad (6m 27s):
Yeah. I love Mason to death, but I think he's gone way through Star Trek on this one. Phasers on stunn, Mason, phasers on stun.
Joel (6m 35s):
And speaking of going too far, your buddy Conor McGregor, ultimate fighting machine sold his stake in proper 12 Irish whiskey smarter. You can have Red Breasts as well for a whopping 600 million, $600 million. Holy shit and it sucks!
Chad (6m 58s):
Proper 12 is proper shit. Just so everybody know.
Scotsman (7m 1s):
Welcome to All things Scottish. Our slogan is if it's not Scottish it's crap!
Chad (7m 7s):
And that stuff is crap. Much like this asshole's podcast we were on. What the fuck was that about?
Joel (7m 14s):
Wow, that was weird. Huh? That was weird.
Chad (7m 18s):
So after Pete Janssen's dropped a teaser video, a listener dropped a DM to me and said, and asked if Pete was the MyPillow guy?
Joel (7m 30s):
Like when an anti-vaxxer invaded my Facebook feed one weekend just randomly. And it just shit got weird really quickly, but where it didn't get weird was I, I did an interview last week with our buddy Craig Fisher about all kinds of stuff. But if you haven't checked that out, Craig Fisher's podcast, I don't even know what it's called, but it's awesome. Fish Dogs Live or something. I don't know.
Chad (7m 55s):
Rapid fire, shout outs, Martin Redstone tweeted a sunny UK pick. You don't see those too often. He was walking the dog in the park, listening to Chad and Cheese. Jarvis Carel showing off her new Chad and Cheese t-shirt while walking in the hood and listening to some Chad and Cheese, looking good. Jarvis and new listener, Andrea Petrocine, Petrocine said he just discovered the podcast connected with me immediately on LinkedIn. And obviously we're his kind of people. So appreciate y'all listening. We need more of that. And also free t-shirts, I don't know if you guys know this or not going to Chadcheese.com click on free and in the upper right-hand corner, you could possibly win t-shirts by Emissary.
Chad (8m 45s):
Beer by AdZuna. That's right. We deliver beer to your doorstep. Thanks to AdZuna. And then the coup de Gras bourbon. It's so sexy. It tastes so good going down. That's right. Win free bourbon. And a tasting session with us. Robert Ruff and just a good time.
Joel (9m 9s):
We need to highlight that we, you and I don't actually deliver the beer. Someone else delivers it. It, we're not that high, high brow here around here, but so the way you said it was a little bit like we're going to show up with beer, which would be cool. And Hey, if you write a check, it could happen.
Chad (9m 25s):
It could happen. It could happen. Anything else?
Joel (9m 30s):
How about some breaking moves for yo ass?
Chad (9m 34s):
OK, over here Joel, we've got breaking news. Ceridian will be acquiring ideal.com. What do you have on that?
Joel (9m 44s):
Alright. So Ceridian today announced it has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire Ideal. You know, you know, Ceridian as a talent management system, they do about every fucking thing.
Chad (9m 58s):
Joel (9m 58s):
They're a little company anyway. So Ideal says they're a leading talent intelligence software provider they're based out of Toronto, Ontario. Beautiful, great white North. This acquisition is anticipated to optimize Ceridian's talent management offering. Once Ideal's capabilities are integrated into the day force platform, which is Ceridian's little product there. The acquisition is, is expected to close on April 30th, 2021.
Chad (10m 26s):
Quick one on this. Cause it just came in. I mean, Ideal is matching, screening, chat and everything Ceridian is not. Ceridian is anemic on the talent side of the house. So this is going to give them a product on the hiring side that really, you know, they don't have now. We'll need to dig in a little bit deeper on this, but it's, you know, it's smart. It doesn't really make them a player on the recruitment side of the house. I don't think, but it's a step. I just want to underscore that when we were going over LaRocks numbers and you and I debated where the money and where the energy is going to go, and I said, talent recruitment, and you said, fuck that it's going into human capital management.
Joel (11m 9s):
Oh yeah, it's still, well, maybe I'm on the right track. It's still capital management buying up a recruiting tool. We'll see more of that. I think you're smart.
Chad (11m 18s):
And then there was another buying spree happening on Jobvite side. That's right spot there, Jobvite.
Joel (11m 26s):
Full disclosure on the show, full disclosure.
Chad (11m 29s):
They did, they did some acquisition this week. This week was great, by Monday, we had our first three topics for the show, but I got to take the rest of the week off, which was nice. So Jobvite which all our listeners know and love. Select Jobvite's last big shopping spree, this one was also funded by K-1 Investment Management. JazzHR's Pete Lampson will serve as with our buddy Aman Brar joining the board of directors. Listeners will know Aman as founder of text recruiting solution Canvas, before getting acquired by Jobvite and becoming their CEO two years ago, Jobvite, JazzHR and NXTThing that's NXTThing RPO will continue to operate under their respective brands.
Chad (12m 14s):
Additional investment has been made to fund hiring all the companies. However, the money, the dollar, the price tag was not disclosed. Unlike the last time Jobvite rolled up Canvas Roll Point and Telemetry and announced that they had raised $200 million to do so. Terms are not disclosed on this one, which was, which was kind of interesting. So what's your first take, what's your hot take on this acquisition? Let's break this up into three segments, real quick. So we've got Aman leaving, JazzHR, and then NXTThing. So let's hit Aman leaving first. Okay. So I've had a bunch of people DM me, and they're making a big deal about Aman leaving as CEO.
Chad (12m 55s):
And I mean, let's face it, dude. The guy deserves a fucking breather. He was responsible for the integration of the original K-1 roll-up. Dan got the deal done and Aman did all the hard work and putting Canvas, Telemetry and Roll Point together. So, you know, I don't see this, isn't a big surprise to me. I actually got a call. I was on my way back from South Carolina. I got a call from Aman. We had a great conversation and he's like, he's just excited and happy to spend time with his family for once.
Joel (13m 27s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, there's obviously taking a break and going to Hawaii for a week and there's, you know, leaving the whole CEO seat and then going into the board of directors. So I imagine, you know, Amman didn't come from our space. You know, he started Canvas after being, I think at ChaCha and you know, some other place I'm forgetting, he started another company that was not in our space. So my guess is Dan Finnegan, who was the former CEO, he probably needed a break and said, Aman, can you, can you come on and integrate these technologies? Can you do some recruiting, do some acquisitions, roll some shit up, hire some folks.
Joel (14m 8s):
And then peace out after like two years, which is roughly about where we are with that. So I will bet that we won't see Aman after this gig in employment ever again, which is kind of sad. It'd be nice to see him back in here, but I don't think that we will, he'll probably advise for a year or so and step out. When I talked to them, Dan is pretty much gone and people will remember the resu-mater, which then became jazz.co, which then I guess was too hard for salespeople to pitch. So it became JazzHR. That was a great, that was a great story. The resume, we won't get into it on this one, but so, so Aman leaving. And then what were the other two little side and side discussions you wanted to have?
Chad (14m 51s):
JazzHR? I don't think it's sod. I think it's major, I think are both major, but JazzHR is definitely the big one you're looking at really an ecosystem for, from SMB to enterprise. So nobody's done this well, remember Taleo had business edition, iCIMS jumped into the SMB pool at one time and both tried applying their enterprise experience and tech to SMB and it didn't stick.
Joel (15m 17s):
Chad (15m 17s):
You already know jazz works in the SMB segment. You already know Jobvite works in the upper echelon of SMB and also enterprise together. I think that is actually a winning combination. What do you think?
Joel (15m 31s):
So the first big acquisition, when they rolled up Roll Point, Canvas and Telemetry, it was mostly a feature add on. Right. And so this was a little bit bigger.
Chad (15m 44s):
Like a lot bigger, I think!
Joel (15m 46s):
Yeah. I mean, this was like a, I don't know, this is like the beer company that buys up the wine company and then like the liquor company. It's like, whatever you want and wherever you are in your journey, we're going to be there for you. So, okay. Some of these small businesses, that Jazz services, they're going to become big businesses and they're going to move up to Jobvite. They're going to transition to the big stuff. Anyone that like, Oh, we're going to test the waters on this RPO thing. Okay. Oh, we got that shit too. So it's, it continues to be this one platform, one stop shop to roll them all. And this one is a big step forward. I was surprised I didn't mention the price tag after they had mentioned the 200 million last time.
Joel (16m 28s):
K-1 is obviously really serious about this shit. K-1, primarily invests in enterprise level software. So they see a much bigger play to move more people into that space, which was interesting. The one bit of criticism that I found interesting was that K-1 seems to have a lot of control bringing in us, basically a smaller CEO into a bigger entity and having him run that seems ripe for potential problems or challenges. And that K-1 is sort of pulling the strings on what's going on. Obviously neither one of us have insight on K-1's motivations, I would think of other than make money, but they seem to have a lot of control over what's going on there at Jobvite.
Chad (17m 14s):
I wouldn't dispute that, but I also think that this is a it's not like Pete doesn't have CEO experience. It's not like he doesn't, he hasn't grown an organization. So yeah, I don't think it's going to be him being the whipping boy overall, the next RPO piece, this is where many people are befuddled. I really see this as incredibly smart. Coming from just a short stint in RPO. We were always in the US the UK does things entirely different, but in US, we try to standardize a stack. So you can go in and have standard process methodologies automatically, right? And boom, boom, boom, not just have an outsourcing human component, but also an outsourced tech component.
Chad (17m 59s):
So this has been happening for years, just in reverse. Now we have a tech provider that says, Hey, look for all of our customers, we can automatically offer, especially in this landscape, when you know people we're not building to scale up, they will have RPO assets available to them quickly, whether it's in, in short engagements or bigger engagements, I guarantee you, this is one of the things that they saw from a gap in a market standpoint. I think it's smart. I'm not sure it'll, we'll see how it plays out, but I love this.
Joel (18m 38s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a challenge for sure. But if they pull it off, it'll be pretty genius. It'll be pretty genius.
Chad (18m 45s):
I dig it.
Joel (18m 47s):
Well, all they're missing is a gig platform. I guess they need to go buy a gig platform. Which is what I thought Jobcase had done. So you're on the golf course, doing whatever you were enjoying your life. And you send me a text that says, you said, Jobcase has just bought Upwork. And I'm like, how is that even possible? And then I looked it up online, like now is Upward. So spellcheck sometimes on the golf course.
Chad (19m 15s):
Spellcheck and beer kids. That's what happens. Yeah. Fred calls me on the golf course and he's like, Hey, like
Joel (19m 21s):
Chad (19m 22s):
Yeah. He's like, I'm supposed to be, you know, on vacation with my family right now, but I couldn't have this happen without giving you a call. And so we had just a quick conversation and yeah, I mean, buying Upward this for them to be quite frank, I think is just an add on. First and foremost, you're buying somewhat of a competitor. It has better distribution and matching. It's a way for Jobcase to help employers utilize those types of features without actually buying point solutions and integrating them into their ATS. So I see this as a cheat code for Jobcase to say, Hey, just use us.
Chad (20m 4s):
Instead of buying those point solutions, we will help you do all of the matching and all of the distribution and those types of things. So I think it's a great move from Jobcase's standpoint.
Joel (20m 17s):
Yeah. And it's a great way to add some clients. So this is Jobcase's first acquisition, since it launched. And the company is expected to increase its existing 110 million members and 20 million monthly active users by 30%. It will retain all team members of upward.net as part of the deal. And with the move Jobcase is touting itself as quote, "the third largest online career destination" end quote. Subtle, I don't know much about upward.net. It looks like it's been bootstrapped since the beginning. It's about a decade old.
Joel (20m 57s):
There's nothing in Crunchbase in terms of money that it's raised. It acquired Proven back in 2019, which I'm sure we talked about, but I don't remember 2019 very well. Which was done to expand its small business offering. Proven had raised $4.8 million, so clearly Upward has some money or access to money if they were buying a company that size.
Chad (21m 19s):
Here's the hard part and Fred knows this, their whole team knows, especially on the technical side, is the integration and transition, right? So the integration of upward tech and possible transition of Upward users toward Jobcase, that needs to be eloquent instead of what we've seen over the years of kind of like just ham-fisted, just slam it in approach. Right? So I think that's going to be the big key. Whoa, could this work, could it be amazing? Yes. Will it? Got to see how the execution happens?
Joel (21m 52s):
Interesting. It feels like a trend that these ten-year-old companies are getting, getting snagged up, snap swapped up. So I just may like the VC, the VC runways are ending for a lot of these companies. They're they're for sale. Clearance rack.
Chad (22m 6s):
Clearance rack or just go ahead and flop out that IPO.
Joel (22m 12s):
It's like, I'm tired of doing this. Can we sell this shit?
Chad (22m 15s):
What's that? What's that on the desk? Is that your IPO?
Joel (22m 18s):
Anyway, speaking of a ten-year old company who started in 2010, ah, ZipRecruiter.
Chad (22m 24s):
There it is.
Joel (22m 26s):
this is, I predicted this for like five years in a row. In case you missed it, after much prediction and speculation by yours, truly ZipRecruiter finally filed to go public through a direct listing on the NYSE, the LA based company that launched in 2010 and has raised over 200 million in venture capital. So it's looking to raise as much as 100 million in the public offering. Soon to be known on the street as ticker symbols, Zip the company reported net income of 86 million on revenue of 418 point 14 million for the year ended December 31st, 2020. They laid off a lot of people along the way. You might remember. They said goodbye to nearly 40% of their employees two weeks into the pandemic.
Joel (23m 10s):
The company said more than 2.8 million businesses and 110 million job seekers have used ZipRecruiter since it was founded. It's been a long time since a notable company in our space has gone public. Damn you Glassdoor and I'll watch with great interest and excitement as I'm sure you will too. What's your take?
Chad (23m 26s):
Yeah, I think the 40% was a part of it the necessary evolution they should have taken before the pandemic. Just they were using the pandemic as an excuse, and they also needed to lean out for something like this and I've got to, I've got to give it Ian he didn't have managers give the word. He actually did it himself. Right? So, but number one, they should have done it years ago to be able to focus on Enterprise. And then also number two, they needed to lean out too, to be able to target for IPO. I personally think that ZipRecruiter is the next evolution of what a job board or whatever we're gonna call it should be.
Chad (24m 9s):
They are a better version of Indeed. They really are. They post. Then they go ahead and they engage in programmatic and they have that whole matching component. Right? So post-match invite deliver programmatic. So overall I think ZipRecruiter is really the evolution of what a job board should be aspiring to be today. And if you remember, they have a very, I don't, I don't know how big it is now, but they have a big contingent of individuals in Israel who focus on AI because they know the job board model of old cannot work. And that's what they are not.
Joel (24m 47s):
Interesting. So you give a buy rating to ZipRecruiter. We don't, we don't give financial advice and we don't know what the stock's going to go public at price-wise but you're you're you sound bullish, bullish on that stock. Right?
Chad (25m 0s):
Right now we have a ton of individuals who are saying, look, I'm not going back to work for starvation wages. You can fuck off, but that money is going to run out and they're going to have to go back to work. Zip is going to spike. That's all there is to it. When all of that spikes guess what's going to happen. Yeah, there, they're going to get, I think they're going to get a good number myself. Now, do you hold this stock long-term maybe not?
Joel (25m 24s):
Yeah. So I think there are four major headwinds and I'll just sort of be brief about those. But I think that the job board label is going to be hard for it to shake on the street. Obviously it comes down to profits and growth, but the posting of jobs, history, I mean, it's an old business, right? Like why would you know, why would I invest in that when I can go invest in Snapchat or Tik Tok goes public or Airbnb or something sexy. So I think that'll be a headwind for it. Historically job boards don't do very well. Dice has not done very well in that space. So that'll be a headwind. I think, I think programmatic could work against it. The challenge with programmatic when it's your programmatic, is that it tends to lean toward your stuff and make you more profitable.
Joel (26m 8s):
I've heard from a few recruiters that talk about Indeed IQ, not being that great because it's all sort of geared toward making Indeed richer, whereas solutions like Appcast or Pando or Recruitology are more about getting you better ROI. So I think that's a potential challenge. And if enterprise clients are leaning more on app casts and some of the other established players, are they going to move their money over to a ZipRecruiter product? I think SMB recruitment is really challenged right now. I think gig platforms are taking a bite out of a lot of that stuff. You mentioned the not working, but if when they go back to work, are they going to, are they going to, who knows what's going to happen? I mean, McDonald's is offering 50 bucks for an interview and no one's going.
Joel (26m 49s):
So I don't know when that gets cleared up. It obviously has to, at some point when the money runs out, but I think that's going to be a challenge for them. And lastly, we've kind of learned that if you don't own the rails in our business, which is a commodity business, in many cases, you're just renting. And I feel, I feel really. So there are two things working against ZipRecruiter. Number one is I think, I think Google is a pain in the ass for job boards, period. And I think that eventually there's going to be a tax on from Google on these job sites to get traffic and that's going to cut into profits. And the other thing is advertising is a little tougher. I mean, there's more fragmentation there, more podcasts for them to advertise on. And which ones do you pick?
Joel (27m 29s):
There's with streaming where do I put my ads? Because they're in this churn business of, we create more ads which creates more traffic, which creates more business and it goes around and around. But if you stop the flow of money into advertising, we've seen that, that becomes really tough. So I hope they crush it. I hope they do incredibly well. And I hope a lot more companies go public because we can talk about them and it'll be really fun. But I like you, there may be a pop in terms of people saying, Hey, the employment is going to blow up, people are hiring but longer term. Do I think, you know, this is the next Microsoft? No.